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0:37

I'm Serena Tawsey, and this is out travel

0:40

the system.

0:42

This week,

0:42

we're talking about how your phone is actually

0:45

ruining your vacation.

0:48

We'll talk trends. It's called the vacation

0:50

deprivation study. and it's

0:52

been looking at work life balance for

0:54

people all around the world for over two decades

0:57

now. And what they found is

0:59

Americans on average only take

1:01

eleven days off annually. And

1:04

that's the least amount of time of

1:06

any working adult in the world.

1:08

hear from neurologist David

1:10

Strayer. We're wandering

1:11

around with smartphones and driving

1:13

around the car and flying to Miami

1:15

and so forth. And so we can

1:17

adapt to that, but it still leads

1:19

to high levels of stress.

1:21

And really get down to business.

1:23

When we've done brain scans of people,

1:25

we find really different patterns

1:28

depending on whether they've had their phone with

1:30

them or not.

1:30

So here we go.

1:46

I

1:46

think we probably all know that vacations

1:49

are great for helping us get

1:51

a bit of a break from our day to day life

1:54

But what we probably don't think about

1:56

is just how much our phones kinda

1:59

drag our day to

1:59

day life

2:00

with us. Right? So

2:02

Sometimes we actually need a break from

2:04

social media and our phones in order

2:07

to truly step away and

2:09

have an amazing vacation. Now,

2:11

of course, I'm like all of you.

2:13

I want to post that super cute selfie

2:15

of me and the Italian Riviera on Instagram.

2:18

but I'm starting to think that maybe it

2:20

should actually wait until after the

2:23

vacation. So today,

2:25

we're gonna talk about why it's important

2:27

to put phone down because if you

2:29

really wanna maximize your trip with your loved

2:31

ones and come back feeling refreshed, you

2:33

need to make sure that you're prioritizing your

2:35

mental health even while you're traveling.

2:38

Alright, Christy. Keeping ourselves healthy,

2:41

insane while on vacation, something

2:43

that you and I chat about all the time, especially

2:45

because we both have kids. What is the research

2:48

thing this week? The interesting thing here

2:50

and it's not hard to believe is that

2:53

vacations are generally agreed

2:55

upon to benefit. your mental and

2:57

physical wellness. The reality is that

2:59

Americans actually struggle to use all

3:01

the time off that they get from work. And when

3:03

we do take vacations, we

3:05

don't always fully check out,

3:07

which is definitely not going to

3:10

give us those same benefits. I

3:12

am absolutely guilty of that. Yes.

3:14

It's very true. It's hard to unplug,

3:16

isn't it? Absolutely. I am addicted

3:19

to my phone whether I'm at

3:21

home or on vacation. It is my toxic

3:23

trait. Expedia does

3:25

an annual study. It's called the vacation

3:27

deprivation study. And it's

3:29

been looking at work life balance for

3:31

people all around the world for over two decades

3:34

now. And what they found is

3:36

Americans on average only take

3:38

eleven days off annually. and

3:41

that's the least amount of time of

3:43

any working adult in the world.

3:46

time I hear the stat I've

3:48

heard it for the last five years in

3:50

a row, at least,

3:51

it still blows my mind. And

3:54

sometimes I feel like I'm actually a victim

3:56

of that as well. I'm so curious

3:58

to know if

3:59

you know,

3:59

Christie, off the top of your head, how many

4:02

people actually participate in the Vacation

4:04

Deprivation Study? I think you said it's like

4:06

people worldwide. Is that right? yeah,

4:08

I think we have up to

4:10

twenty eight countries in the past

4:13

with twenty to thirty thousand

4:15

people polled. So it's a

4:17

really pretty comprehensive representation of

4:19

what working adults are doing. Alright.

4:21

Well, that is a truly global

4:23

study then. Wow. So

4:25

Americans are taking the least

4:27

amount of time in the entire world

4:30

that is very very sad. What

4:32

else are we doing wrong? Well,

4:33

unsurprisingly, we're taking the least

4:35

amount of time and we feel very

4:37

vacation deprived. And I

4:40

think the hardest thing about that is when we

4:42

do take time off, we're

4:44

not fully unplugging. So forty percent

4:46

of the time respondents admit to

4:48

taking at least one Zoom call while

4:50

they're out of the office. And then

4:52

The

4:52

rest of them are sitting around feeling guilty

4:54

for taking time off in the first place, so

4:56

we're spending our vacations either working

4:59

or feeling guilty about not

5:00

working. and basically

5:02

not getting the rest and kind of rejuvenation

5:05

that we we need and deserve to have

5:07

from that time off. Why are

5:08

we like this? Christy, were

5:11

there any other nations at least

5:13

that felt the same way as Americans

5:15

and felt really vacation deprived?

5:17

Vacation deprivation is an interesting

5:20

phenomenon because even

5:22

countries where people take all of their

5:24

time off, so places like France

5:26

or Germany where they get twenty to thirty

5:28

days off annually and they take it all because

5:30

they're legally mandated to

5:32

take that time off, they can still

5:34

report kind of high levels a vacation

5:36

deprivation. But the most

5:38

important thing is and the thing that

5:40

everyone agrees on globally is

5:43

that regular vacations are really

5:45

important for general health,

5:47

for well-being, people report

5:49

having the relationships improve

5:51

both personal relationships and

5:53

workplace relationships. they

5:55

also feel like their productivity is better.

5:58

So just generally

5:59

all around

5:59

speaking, vacations are

6:02

gonna really,

6:02

really be a good thing. You

6:04

know,

6:04

so what this tells me is that there

6:06

are probably never enough vacation days

6:09

for us to take and not feel vacation

6:11

deprived, but good to

6:13

know that it does have

6:15

those amazing benefits. And frankly,

6:17

it really is just so nice to have something

6:19

to look forward to, that next

6:21

vacation. But, like, who

6:23

are you if you're letting your

6:25

PTO get away? Like, I wanna know

6:28

who you are and why you let that happen.

6:30

Really? I do. Like, let me talk

6:32

you out of letting your PTO go

6:34

to waste. Honestly, I refuse to

6:37

allow that to happen. Absolutely.

6:39

I think I get a little depressed don't

6:41

have a vacation on the calendar somewhere,

6:43

even if it's months and months away. So

6:45

my hope

6:46

for all of us overworked vacation

6:49

deprived Americans is that next

6:51

time you have a vacation, make

6:53

sure you leave your laptop at home.

6:55

And if you're thinking about letting some of your PTO

6:58

go to waste, Don't do it.

7:00

Americans are the most likely

7:02

to have unlimited PTO

7:04

out of all other workers

7:06

in the world, yet we

7:08

still take less days.

7:10

I refuse to allow that to happen

7:13

on my watch. not with my listeners,

7:15

not on this show. Alright,

7:17

Christie. Well, thank you so much for that

7:19

insightful info. I feel like we're all a little

7:21

bit sad about it, but hopefully we can turn it

7:23

around.

7:30

Today, we're joined by David Dreyer,

7:32

a professor and scientist at

7:34

the University of Utah, focusing

7:36

on cognition and neural science.

7:39

David's studies the impact of technology on

7:41

our brains and how nature has a

7:43

positive impact on our minds.

7:45

David is based basically here to tell us how we

7:47

can really get the most out of our vacations

7:49

and just feel a little bit better.

7:52

Hi, David. It's so

7:54

great To meet you, thank you so much for

7:56

joining us on Out Travel the System

7:58

today. Hey, thanks for inviting me.

8:01

I'm

8:01

really excited to tackle

8:03

today's topic of overall

8:05

mindfulness and well-being, while traveling.

8:07

because I think it's super,

8:09

super important for people to really just

8:11

recognize the powerful impact that travel

8:14

can have on their psyche. So

8:16

before we really dig into it, can you just

8:18

tell me a little bit about your

8:21

background and sort of what you've been

8:23

researching and what sort of

8:25

brought you to where you're at today?

8:26

Well, I'm a cognitive neuroscientist

8:29

by training I'm interested in the brain and

8:31

how we think. And

8:34

I came across the idea

8:37

some time ago that

8:39

when you're out in nature and you're

8:41

kind of unplugged from all the technology,

8:43

you start to think differently.

8:46

You become a little bit more connected

8:48

to the natural world. You'd

8:50

kinda notice things that you didn't

8:52

notice before. And

8:54

so it's just what we kind of

8:56

learned and have been doing in my lab is

8:58

trying to understand what is happening to

9:00

the brain, when we're kind

9:02

of in this kind of more of a mindful natural

9:05

environment than the kind of artificial

9:07

environment that we now surround ourselves

9:09

in. So that's kind of

9:11

what I've been studying, and my lab has

9:13

been studying for the last, you know,

9:15

ten, fifteen years. Where are

9:17

you based? Where is your lab?

9:19

My lab is in Salt Lake City,

9:21

Utah, in the applied cognition

9:23

lab. Well,

9:24

this episode is so

9:26

so timely because I actually just

9:29

Couple days ago, I just got back

9:31

from a family vacation. And

9:33

leading up to the vacation, David,

9:35

I was stressed to my

9:37

absolute

9:38

MAX.

9:39

Work was absolutely insane. I

9:41

was really, really struggling. I

9:44

had

9:44

just bought a house

9:46

I had moved

9:46

and I was trying to sell a

9:49

house to pay for the

9:51

new one that I had just bought. So

9:53

it was like the absolute sort

9:55

of peak of stress and almost so much

9:57

to the point where I was like, I think I might cancel this

9:59

vacation because I just don't think I

10:01

can mentally get my head in the

10:03

right place to actually properly enjoy. It seems

10:05

so overwhelming, but I

10:07

went. And honestly, I'm not even

10:09

kidding you, David, by, like, day Two,

10:11

I felt like I was a completely

10:14

different person than who I

10:16

was three days prior.

10:18

I was so much more present. It

10:21

was like everything that had been really bothering

10:23

me was just gone. And that was only

10:25

after, like, seventy two hours.

10:27

So, like, What

10:28

happened in my brain

10:31

over those seventy two hours,

10:33

you think? Well,

10:34

your insights were really right, spot

10:37

on. what you described in

10:39

terms of your life stressors, you

10:41

know, just were off the chart. We

10:43

know that buying and selling a house is

10:45

one of the bigger things that just amps

10:47

up all the stress levels. It's one

10:49

of the, you know, the big five kinds of things

10:51

that really lead to kind of high levels

10:53

of stress. And and and basically

10:55

negative health outcomes So you can't do

10:57

that on a long term basis or it

10:59

won't turn out well. But pretty much

11:01

our twenty four seven lifecycle

11:04

is on the phone and

11:06

social media, driving a car, all

11:08

the technology that's kinda

11:10

we're surrounding ourselves with. That's

11:12

a modern civilized world.

11:15

but it comes at a cost. We ultimately

11:17

have hunter gatherer brains. Our brains

11:19

haven't changed fundamentally over the

11:21

last several thousand years. yet we're

11:23

wandering around with smartphones and driving

11:25

in or in the car and

11:27

flying to Miami and so forth.

11:29

And so we can adapt

11:31

to that, but it still leads to high levels of

11:33

stress. When

11:34

you kind of go on a limb of a vacation,

11:37

you break away from that

11:39

rack race, you see a couple of things.

11:41

One is that you see lower levels of

11:43

stress. And so some of the

11:45

biological markers, the biomarkers

11:47

of stress show that your

11:49

heart rate You see changes in heart

11:51

rate. You see changes in blood

11:53

pressure. You see changes in cortisol

11:56

levels. you see changes

11:58

in the immune system. So there's kind

12:00

of a reboot of the stress system

12:02

when you kind of step aside from the

12:04

technological inundation that

12:06

we have. And then there's the

12:08

mental reset as well.

12:10

So you will also see improvements

12:13

in creativity, clearer

12:15

thinking. When we

12:17

look at the brain, we can see changes

12:19

in the neural signals that are suggesting

12:21

that we're resting portions

12:23

of the brain that are important for problem

12:25

solving and thinking that have been just

12:27

overtaxed. And so when you do,

12:29

like, what you described on your little two or

12:31

three day trip, you've given

12:34

yourself both a mental reboot and a reboot

12:36

in terms of stress. Is

12:37

it something that

12:40

happens, like, instantly, you

12:42

know, how long does it take

12:44

to actually get to that reset

12:46

point? It's

12:47

a great question. So

12:50

we know that you

12:52

know, you can start to see benefits within

12:54

about thirty minutes. Now that's not the

12:56

full benefit. It grows

12:58

if you're away for a longer periods

13:00

of time. but some of

13:02

the research studies we

13:04

do in Salt Lake City,

13:07

we're actually able to document

13:09

those changes in

13:11

terms of both

13:14

the stress biomarkers and also

13:16

the cognitive and neuro biomarkers.

13:18

But we also know that it seems to accumulate,

13:20

there's a notion of kind of a

13:22

three day syndrome that if you kind of get

13:25

away for two or three

13:27

days, you really kinda get in

13:29

that sweet spot. It's as if

13:31

you just kind of slowly unwrapped

13:33

all the tech technology that had been surrounding you and

13:35

you kinda are in a new space.

13:37

And that takes a little bit of time.

13:39

It's not like you can't get benefits

13:41

with kinda short doses if

13:43

you go to the park or you go to

13:45

the beach. But the benefits seem

13:48

to really kinda grow

13:50

over a two to three day period. Tell

13:52

me a

13:52

little bit more about some of these benefits.

13:55

I know you mentioned nature

13:57

being a really, really big piece of it,

13:59

what are the

13:59

impacts

14:00

that nature can have on

14:03

our well-being? You

14:04

see lower levels of stress. I

14:06

mean, high levels of stress, higher

14:08

blood pressure, higher cortisol

14:11

levels, compromised or

14:13

stressed immune system. Those

14:15

are going to have long term chronic

14:17

negative outcomes. And so by

14:19

traveling, by getting away, by

14:21

getting into more natural settings,

14:23

which is often what we do when we

14:25

travel, we go to a a

14:27

place that has kinda beautiful scenery.

14:29

You're kinda more connecting and so you've

14:31

you're you're de stressing the body. that's

14:34

kind of stress recovery. You're

14:36

also thinking more

14:38

clearly and that's a cognitive restoration.

14:40

And so there we can show

14:42

that Working memory improves.

14:46

We can see that creativity

14:49

improves. higher levels

14:52

of problem solving. You just start

14:54

to think more clearly. People

14:56

oftentimes I I'm curious if you noticed this,

14:58

but after a day or two,

15:00

you start to notice things that you didn't

15:02

notice before. You notice birds that you

15:04

didn't hear before. It's not like the birds

15:06

magically appeared. It's just that all of a sudden

15:08

you recalibrated your senses. Did you

15:10

notice something like that?

15:11

I definitely did. Especially with

15:13

my daughter, I was just much

15:15

more present with her. And I noticed

15:17

almost all of a sudden, like,

15:19

she was like this grown

15:21

up child that was

15:23

talking and using different words and

15:25

different vocabulary, you know, and things like

15:27

that. I just I felt like I was much more

15:29

aware of of her

15:31

behaviors and and the changes that she had gone

15:33

through, but it made me really glad that I that I

15:35

sort of took that vacation. So I definitely noticed

15:37

something like that for sure. Yeah. A

15:39

complete recalibration, a sensory

15:41

reboot so that you're just

15:43

more attuned to the

15:45

physical environment you're in. We

15:48

kinda think about that our

15:50

modern urban environment, you're being

15:52

bombarded by all these sounds. Think to a

15:54

city and you've got the horns and all the

15:56

other kind of atmospheric noise.

15:58

And you've got all the other

15:59

kind of lights and things like that that just

16:02

constantly are competing for clarity

16:04

of thought. Most of

16:05

the time is not always because

16:07

people can go to, you know, busy cities too.

16:10

But most of the time when you're on vacation,

16:12

there's kind of a natural feature.

16:15

Oftentimes, it removes

16:17

you from that over stimulation and

16:19

lets the brain recalibrate.

16:21

Is there something that you've seen in your

16:24

research that just shows getting out

16:26

of the place that you're in and a new

16:28

change of scenery is beneficial? Or is that

16:30

nature element? and that

16:32

reduction in sound and ambient noise and that

16:34

kind of stuff. Is that really a critical part or

16:36

is just literally getting into a different

16:38

place equally beneficial?

16:40

So

16:40

one of the researchers who's been very

16:43

instrumental in this area, Kaplan,

16:46

talks about being away. And

16:49

so if being away means going

16:51

to Broadway plays in New

16:53

York City and you kinda get away

16:55

from the the rat race of every

16:57

day, then that can be beneficial.

16:59

We know that one of the best

17:01

ways to get away is when you're

17:03

completely or separated from all

17:05

the technology that's our modern world. But

17:07

that doesn't mean you can't get parts of

17:09

it by going to other

17:12

kind of urban centers.

17:14

sometimes

17:15

with traveling, there can

17:17

be additional stressors, whether it's a

17:19

delayed flight or long lines at

17:21

the airport or or something along those lines it

17:23

sounds like what I'm sort hearing is even if you just

17:25

take a minute and, like, put your phone down

17:27

and try and, like, send to yourself for a little

17:29

bit, maybe it's, like, go and look out a

17:32

window or take a walk and get some

17:34

fresh air. Are you do you think that

17:36

even something like that can can sort of help

17:38

to alleviate some of the stressors while while

17:40

you're traveling? Yeah.

17:42

I mean, I think that one of the issues is

17:45

that you put yourself under time pressure. If you're

17:47

trying to get to an airport, you get through

17:49

TSA screening, and make sure

17:51

you get on flight, and that stuff is

17:53

stressful. And I'm not sure that

17:55

anyone's gonna say that, hey, that

17:57

flight really restored me in

17:59

any way. That's just not the way

18:01

it works. I think that

18:03

wristwatch and the time pressure, that's

18:05

another one of the stressors. And oftentimes,

18:07

when you go on vacation, you

18:09

forget what day of the week it is. fifteen

18:11

minutes late when you're on vacation, it's not

18:13

usually a real big deal. One

18:16

key to trying to de stress is to try

18:18

and avoid some of the

18:20

time pressure you get where you're trying to, like, cut it to the last

18:22

second to get to the airport better

18:24

off giving yourself some additional time so you

18:26

don't have that additional stress.

18:29

there's a notion of bioophilia, which

18:31

basically says humans have an innate

18:34

attraction to living organisms

18:37

that animals and plants. And

18:39

so when you go to a a

18:41

park, even if you go to say New

18:43

York City

18:43

and you go to Central Park,

18:46

there's these huge kind of oasis

18:49

of green space and living even

18:51

in the cities, and they're there because they

18:53

are restorative. So it is

18:56

just if you try and just do do

18:58

do too much on a trip

19:00

and you're just basically, you know,

19:02

running and pacing from one place to the next

19:04

that typically isn't the kind of a

19:06

restorative vacation

19:09

that

19:09

kind of leads you to go, wow. I really

19:11

kinda got into a different space.

19:13

Yeah.

19:13

You definitely hear a lot of people who come

19:16

back and say, I need a vacation from my

19:18

vacation because they were just sort of go go go

19:20

go go go. And I've absolutely had

19:22

tripps like that. So it sounds like one of your tips might be to

19:24

just like find time

19:26

to just carve out a little bit where you can

19:28

just sort of slow down

19:31

and maybe sort of get some space and things like

19:33

that. How much time would be beneficial? So let's say

19:35

someone's doing like a big trip in

19:37

Europe. It's the first time to London.

19:39

They've got five days. They're trying to cram everything in.

19:41

How much time would you suggest they

19:43

take to just try and reset so that

19:45

they can recalibrate just a little

19:48

bit? I

19:48

mean, I think the answer probably depends

19:50

on each individual, but don't

19:52

put such a crowded itinerary that

19:54

you're just gonna be going from

19:56

one venue to the next venue to the next venue because you won't

19:59

remember much of it. You're better off

20:01

having fewer items

20:03

on your travel

20:05

schedule and spending a little bit of time there

20:07

and getting some downtime and actually

20:10

being

20:10

immersed in that environment. Spend

20:12

a little bit of time and in

20:14

London not running from museum to

20:16

museum, but just actually trying to experience

20:18

the city as well. Yeah.

20:20

There you go. I wanna talk a

20:22

little bit about social media. I

20:25

know you've done a lot of

20:27

research studies about the impacts

20:29

of using our But,

20:31

you know, since the launch of like Instagram

20:34

and this huge desire for

20:36

people to share all the

20:38

amazing places that they've been, they sort of

20:40

almost wear it like a badge of honor, right,

20:42

taking these selfies and these big

20:44

pictures. What

20:45

why impact

20:46

do you think that's

20:48

had on people's brands? Or what

20:51

are

20:51

the consequences, I guess, of using social

20:53

media while you're on vacation?

20:56

I

20:56

guess the biggest thing is you're really not

20:59

completely in the moment and in

21:01

the natural environment when you're

21:03

constantly having to check your phone post

21:06

to some social media account.

21:08

When we've done brain scans of people

21:10

as they walk through an arboretum,

21:14

we find really different patterns

21:16

depending on whether or not they've had their phone

21:18

with them or not. And these persist for

21:20

long after the walk. So just

21:23

because you carry your phone with

21:25

you, it doesn't mean

21:25

you need to use it all the time.

21:28

If you just stash it in your

21:30

backpack or purse, You need it.

21:32

You can take a few photos. But for that

21:34

technology you carry with you, changes your

21:36

memory of the experience, it

21:38

changes your actual experience, And

21:41

so it's it's probably worth

21:43

trying to be in the moment and

21:45

experience the full immersive

21:48

benefits of a of a trip rather

21:50

than just live in the photos that you

21:52

take while you're there. I obviously

21:53

have my work email on my phone,

21:56

and I work in social

21:58

media. When I was on

21:59

vacation, I intentionally just

22:02

didn't pull out my phone because I didn't wanna

22:04

be tempted to look at

22:06

my work

22:06

email. And so

22:08

I also because I was being really

22:10

conscious of that, I also wasn't going

22:12

on social media. So I

22:15

feel like maybe that had a big

22:17

part of me being

22:19

more present. It just really occurred

22:21

to me that maybe those two were

22:23

actually probably pretty

22:27

closely connected. Howard

22:28

Bauchner: Yeah, I mean, when I

22:30

I have the opportunity over so often

22:32

to be able to kind of just get

22:34

off the grid, not look

22:36

at anything on the Internet

22:39

or email, And when I come back, I

22:41

usually have three hundred or four hundred

22:43

or five hundred emails that have all

22:45

just accumulated. those

22:47

would have been kind of everyday stressors.

22:49

When I go through them, more often than

22:51

not, they're just noise. They're things that I

22:53

really didn't need to pay attention to, but

22:55

I would have. It's not that technology is

22:57

necessarily inherently good

23:00

or bad. It's not that social media is inherently

23:02

good or bad. It's just how we use

23:05

it. And there's never a user's manual

23:07

for how we actually use a phone and

23:09

how we use social media. It's just

23:11

there and we just oftentimes

23:13

get sucked into the defaults

23:15

and start to do things all the time.

23:17

And it's good to basically be mindful

23:19

that it is a stressor, and it

23:21

will kinda dim our senses and

23:24

stress us out. And so

23:26

like what you found, if you just kind

23:28

of get away from the work email and kind

23:30

of just, you know, experience life

23:33

for a moment that there are benefits

23:35

to that.

23:35

what tips would you give to our

23:38

listeners who want to try and limit

23:40

their use of technology for the better,

23:42

either overall or while they're on

23:44

vacation at least? If

23:45

you can avoid looking at

23:47

your work email, you should

23:48

not look at your work email while you're on

23:51

vacation. Because the second you look There

23:53

will be something you have to do, and it takes you

23:55

right back to the office. You might as well still

23:57

be

23:57

there. A good way to do

23:59

things is to block your time. If I

24:02

have to look at email

24:04

or or if I have to interact with

24:06

technology or call friends or whatever,

24:08

do it part of the day, but then set

24:10

aside part of the day when you're when that

24:12

phone's kinda stashed for a little bit.

24:14

And so you can actually, like, go to a

24:16

cafe, go to a go to a

24:18

bar, go to a a theater, go to

24:20

a museum, have the full percent

24:22

experience without kind of

24:24

multitasking because that

24:26

half

24:26

a foot in the tech and

24:29

a half a foot destination is, leaves

24:31

you with kind of a not the full

24:33

rich experience you could have. So

24:35

you

24:35

mentioned you guys did brain scans of

24:38

sort of people taking walks.

24:40

And did you notice that

24:43

people who had their technology, did

24:45

it change the memory of the experience that they

24:48

had? Yeah, you'd be

24:48

surprised. So in our studies, we

24:51

had people walking through

24:53

an arboretum in Red

24:55

Butte arboretum in Salt Lake City. It's a

24:57

beautiful place to go on a walk.

25:00

Half of the people went on the walk, and we took all the

25:02

we took their cameras and phones away from

25:04

them when they went on the walk. And the other

25:07

half We had them talking to a friend, their mom,

25:09

their friend, or somebody on the walk.

25:11

And not only do we see really

25:13

distinct changes in the neural

25:15

signals, But later on, we

25:17

gave people a quick test, a surprise

25:19

test at the end. Did you actually

25:21

see this fountain that you walked by? Did

25:23

you actually noticed it? And people

25:25

who were on their phone noticed only about

25:27

half of the things -- Oh, wow. -- that the

25:29

people who weren't on their phones were. So you

25:31

don't notice it. There's some other

25:33

really cool research where people looked

25:36

at the memories that people form when they go

25:38

to a museum with or without

25:40

a phone. And they're taking

25:42

photos of all the exhibits, they don't have as

25:44

rich a memory of the

25:46

museum as if

25:47

they were fully engaged in the

25:50

experience. that technology kind of changes our

25:52

memory in a way that isn't always

25:54

necessarily desirable. And this is

25:55

just so crazy because we think

25:57

0II gotta take a picture. I gotta take this

25:59

video because I wanna record the

26:02

memory. But what you're actually doing, it

26:04

sounds like, is not letting

26:06

the real memory of the experience,

26:08

like, fully sink in. That's just that is

26:10

just very, it's very

26:12

illuminating. We've talked a lot about

26:14

the physiological impacts that stress can have on

26:16

your body, but what role

26:18

does technology play

26:20

in that overall concept?

26:23

It's not so

26:23

much the technology is how we use it. But

26:25

if we use it in an unfettered way,

26:28

which is basically you pick up

26:30

the phone, the moment you wake up

26:32

and you're using it every

26:34

time, even you're forever having lunch

26:36

with a friend, you pick up the phone and you're

26:38

using it. every time

26:40

throughout the whole day, you're constantly on

26:42

the device. Every time you

26:44

do that, you're trying you're shifting attention,

26:46

so you're putting stressors on the

26:48

brain. We know that the prefrontal cortex,

26:51

which is our creative problem

26:53

solving thinking part of the brain,

26:55

is also the part that's switching from

26:57

this task to this task to this task,

26:59

and it just depletes the mental

27:02

resources and kinda makes us less creative.

27:05

But it also leads to higher levels of stress

27:07

and those stress levels over a

27:09

long period of time are

27:11

gonna compromise our health in ways that

27:13

aren't good. So, you know, it's good to

27:15

think about if

27:16

I'm gonna use a cell phone I'm

27:18

gonna plan how to use it. If I'm going to use

27:20

an email and check my email,

27:22

I'm gonna decide. And there are ways

27:24

to change the settings so that

27:26

you can become and control the

27:29

technology. Like, right now,

27:31

we're having this discussion. I set

27:33

my phone on focus turned it

27:35

so that it wouldn't be bothering us and

27:37

interrupting us while we're

27:39

we're talking. But I wouldn't be

27:41

surprised if there's other people you've spoken

27:43

with who haven't done that. And then right in the middle

27:45

of the conversation, they have to stop and

27:47

juggle things. Let's talk

27:48

about the creativity bit I

27:51

feel like people probably think that

27:53

by constantly absorbing

27:56

imagery and videos and news and that kind

27:58

of stuff, it fuels their

28:00

creativity but it sounds like it actually

28:02

can make us a little bit less

28:04

creative. Have you done studies that

28:06

sort of have proven

28:08

that? Yeah. We've done

28:10

several studies and there's now actually a

28:12

number of different labs that have followed that

28:15

work up. when you're

28:18

in an environment where you're not

28:20

constantly bombarded with phones and

28:22

and Internet and everything like that,

28:24

you're now kind of in the moment and you're

28:26

not switching back and forth. We

28:28

know that, again, the part of the brain that's

28:30

really responsible for kind of

28:32

switching from phone

28:33

to driving, to watching,

28:35

to to all the kind of things you

28:37

typically juggle. That's the the frontal part of

28:39

the brain, the prefrontal cortex. And

28:42

it's the evolutionarily the

28:44

most recent portions of

28:46

the of the brain that have evolved in

28:48

primates. When

28:50

you or multitasking

28:52

at what's end, you're just

28:54

constantly using that like a muscle. And now

28:56

if

28:56

you have to come up with some new you've

28:59

kind of already taxed the that that that

29:01

prefrontal cortex, you depleted some of the

29:03

the reserves, and so you're not as

29:06

creative. When we've studied And

29:08

what happens you take technology away and

29:10

have people in a natural environment,

29:13

we get

29:13

boosts up to fifty percent in terms of

29:16

standardized creativity score.

29:18

So, I mean,

29:21

again, you can basically just dim the senses

29:23

and dim the level of creativity.

29:25

if you're gonna wanna kind of get the biggest

29:27

boost, if you're working on a problem, put

29:29

the phone aside, go out and walk for

29:31

a little bit, go to

29:34

a park, and but leave the

29:36

phone in your in your pocket or some

29:38

or in your purse or your

29:40

backpack so that you're

29:42

not multitasking, and you'll kind of all of a sudden you

29:44

get this aha moment. I've come up with a solution

29:46

that I didn't know before, and that's that

29:49

that creative part. So we see that there

29:51

are measurable boosts

29:53

in creativity when you try and do

29:55

what I just said.

29:56

So we've talked a little bit about reducing the amount

29:58

of technology you're using or putting

30:00

your phone down for a little bit while

30:02

you're on vacation. trying to

30:04

take some time to get out in nature a little bit, give

30:07

yourself a little bit of time to just be

30:09

president and focus on you. What

30:11

are some other things that people can do when they're

30:13

on vacation to help them

30:16

really reset? Sounds

30:18

like time, two to three days

30:20

is a really good amount of time to to

30:22

take. So it sounds like, you know, even a short

30:24

break can really be transformative. What are

30:26

some other tips you can give people who

30:28

you know, maybe we've got listeners out there who are

30:30

just feeling really, really burnt out,

30:33

really stressed, or they've hit a

30:35

roadblock in their creative energy, and we've

30:37

convinced them to sort of take this weekend

30:39

trip. What are some other things that you can encourage

30:41

them to do while they're on their vacation

30:43

to help them reset a little bit?

30:45

Relatively regular

30:47

exercise turns out to be a a big

30:49

boost. So there's actually an

30:52

incredibly large body

30:54

of literature right now showing the

30:56

benefits of even modest exercise,

30:58

going out and walking

31:00

in a park, going out and

31:02

walking in a mall, getting some physical

31:04

exercise through it for hours

31:07

over the course of a week is probably

31:09

the minimum. But when you do that, you

31:11

actually see that that

31:14

promotes healthy aging. It

31:16

promotes neurogenesis, which allows new

31:18

neurons to to grow in

31:20

our brains. It is also something

31:22

that tends to reduce our stress levels.

31:25

And so if you can become

31:27

physically active in a

31:29

space where it may be

31:32

stimulating

31:32

But at the same time, try

31:35

and focus and be in the moment as opposed

31:37

to trying to do that and take photos of

31:39

what you're experiencing. Those kinds

31:41

of things will lead to a more rewarding and

31:44

healthier life. I love

31:46

that.

31:46

that I wanna ask

31:47

you, I I love asking scientists

31:51

questions about Chinese medicine

31:54

and more like eastern philosophies.

31:56

So obviously, when

31:58

people hear about well-being and mindfulness,

32:01

they automatically might go to things

32:03

like meditation,

32:04

for example.

32:06

what's your

32:09

your point of view on meditation? Like,

32:11

do you feel like it's necessary or

32:13

do you think a walk around the

32:15

park is equally beneficial?

32:17

I think kind of

32:20

meditating and creating a focus and

32:22

trying to push away some of the

32:24

distractions is really really good. in

32:26

Japan, they have this

32:28

idea of forest bathing, which

32:30

is putting this phone aside and

32:32

wandering around into forest, and that's where you

32:34

see some of evidence for changes in

32:36

immune function when people go

32:38

out into natural spaces. And so

32:40

it's embedded in a lot

32:42

of the cultures in

32:45

Asia. The whole notion behind

32:47

it is actually

32:47

that going

32:50

out and and it's actually a big part of of de

32:52

stressing culture is to try and go

32:54

out and be in natural spaces.

32:58

And that's where, for example, some

33:00

of the research has shown that some of the

33:02

killer T cells that are important for your

33:04

immune system get a boost when you're

33:06

in the forest. So

33:08

our handy producers

33:10

just looked it up. It's srinrin

33:12

yoku is the is the Japanese name.

33:14

Yep.

33:14

That sounds right. Why do

33:16

you think it's so difficult for Americans

33:18

to adopt this type of

33:20

mentality or behavior? Because I definitely don't

33:23

think we prioritize

33:25

that kind of stuff. And

33:27

I've always realized that. Right? So, like, I've always

33:29

worked in, like, a global capacity. And

33:31

I've noticed when I go to hang out

33:33

with colleagues, you know, in the past in

33:35

Germany, they're like, no. No. No. We're gonna

33:37

go to lunch. not

33:39

going to talk about work at lunch

33:41

and we're going to

33:41

have a glass of wine and we're going to hang out and then we're

33:44

going to come back to work, right? They don't eat lunch at

33:46

their desks they don't try and, like,

33:48

multitask, but, like, here in America, it's,

33:50

like, I cannot lose an

33:52

absolute second of, like,

33:54

time during my nine to five. Like,

33:56

I must be always working. Why is that

33:58

such a weird thing for Americans?

33:59

american

33:59

Well, first, one of

34:02

the things you just said was

34:04

the amazing cultural as

34:06

you can experience with travel. I mean, go

34:08

to Germany, go to Spain, go to

34:10

France, go to all the different countries that,

34:13

you know, we've we've been chatting

34:15

about because they value time differently. They value

34:18

interpersonal interactions

34:20

differently. So those things just amazing.

34:22

It's it's one of the reasons why it is

34:24

probably one of the reasons the biggest reason for

34:26

travel is you can experience those different cultural

34:30

perspectives online. in our

34:32

country. We tend to be

34:34

really heavily focused on a lot of

34:36

technology. Most of the social media tech

34:38

companies are from the US. Yeah.

34:40

And and so it's just kind of

34:42

part of our culture. And each culture

34:44

has something different, but it's worth looking

34:46

at some of the benefits of

34:48

trying to say, well, what happens if we go have a meal?

34:50

And we don't

34:51

talk about

34:52

the office. And we

34:54

don't pick it more fun. We

34:56

actually just -- Yeah. -- talk one on

34:58

one. I feel like we've

35:00

talked a lot about going on vacation to

35:02

de stress from work and

35:05

other sort of common life

35:08

stressors. What

35:09

about

35:10

heartbreak? You know, I

35:12

feel like there's this

35:15

emotional state that some people

35:17

can get into, whether they've lost

35:19

a loved one or just

35:22

various types of emotional

35:24

sadness that I think

35:26

some people can experience, unfortunately.

35:29

you any research about how

35:32

getting out, traveling, being in

35:34

nature can help restore

35:36

people

35:36

who might be grieving?

35:39

when

35:39

we do a lot of our research and it's

35:41

not just our lab, but we see that one

35:43

of the biggest and first changes is

35:46

changes in affect. that people tend to

35:48

have a lot more positivity and

35:50

a lot less negativity when they

35:52

kind of get away from it and be in a

35:54

natural environment and interact with

35:56

other people. I know

35:58

that the Sierra Club has

36:00

taken veterans who were suffering

36:02

from PTSD after

36:04

trips to Afghanistan or Iraq.

36:06

in on wilderness therapy adventures, and it

36:09

tends to have a huge impact. And

36:11

I know some of the classes

36:13

I teach have had some of the students come back

36:16

after a tour of

36:18

overseas and they're kind of

36:20

really the people who benefit

36:22

the most. being in a

36:24

natural space and at least in the setting

36:26

that I have my class, they're they're

36:28

not interacting on the phone, they're talking

36:30

to face, and they go Uh-huh. There's actually

36:32

somebody who's really there who's listening.

36:35

So

36:35

it sounds like there's

36:37

a really big

36:40

connection between you know, trauma and nature and

36:41

really helping somebody

36:43

to heal a little

36:44

bit, which I think makes makes

36:47

a lot of sense. I know me myself

36:49

personally. I feel like every time I

36:51

maybe have a big emotional

36:54

situation, I'm my life. My natural instinct is, I don't know how to deal with this.

36:56

So I'm gonna try and get away -- Mhmm. -- try and sort

36:58

of, you know, focus my time, and it sounds like

37:00

that scientifically, it seems

37:02

to prove

37:04

as accurate. Yeah. We see

37:05

that getting away, being away

37:08

creates a reboot. It's

37:11

a reboot mentally. you

37:13

think differently. It's also a re reboot in terms of just the

37:15

the physiological stressors of our life.

37:17

And so when you do kinda

37:20

recalibrate and

37:22

reboot, like, this. It is kind of a, you know, respite

37:24

from just constantly just slugging away out

37:26

of it. And one thing I would say is you say you can't

37:28

take a minute out of your nine to

37:32

five day But if you could manage to carve off a half

37:34

hour and go off on a walk, you

37:36

probably would find that you actually

37:38

don't lose the time. You

37:40

come back more

37:42

stimulated and more creative because of

37:44

that boost. So maybe you can break

37:46

away once in a

37:48

while. David,

37:48

feel like you're gonna be a

37:50

CEO of Fortune five hundred company and run the organization based

37:52

on these tenants,

37:52

and I'm gonna come and work for you

37:55

one thousand percent.

37:57

Before we wrap, I want to

37:59

ask you this question. And don't worry if you

38:01

don't know the answer. Like, give me

38:03

your best guess. would

38:06

you recommend a different

38:08

type of vacation for somebody who

38:10

is dealing with a lot of work

38:14

related stress versus

38:14

somebody who's dealing with more emotional trauma?

38:17

And what would those vacations

38:19

be? If you ask me

38:21

what I would recommend would

38:23

be some aspect of integrating nature into it. This notion of

38:25

bio ophelia is something that

38:28

is restorative and idea we

38:30

have a connectivity with the living things

38:32

of trees and plants and so

38:34

forth. Yeah, I think

38:36

that work

38:38

related stress that's

38:38

just stay away from email for

38:39

a little while away on your vacation. The other kinds

38:41

of stress where you're kind of dealing with

38:43

some traumatic loss of one

38:45

type or another, That probably is

38:47

a different kind of reboot. One

38:50

probably we're maybe interacting

38:52

more with people, which we tend

38:54

not to do. The problem with

38:56

technology is something is lost in

38:58

translation. I pick up the phone and I

39:00

talk to you and you hear me

39:03

through the phone. you

39:04

can hear my voice, but you don't get all things about

39:06

how we communicate. And so

39:08

one to one sitting across some

39:11

somebody in a in a at a at a where

39:14

you're getting a cup of coffee and

39:16

listen to what they say, looking

39:18

at how they react, watching

39:20

their body how it

39:22

changes with those kind of

39:24

conversation. That's more of an immersive full

39:26

experience, and that's actually our

39:28

historical evolutionary

39:30

background. not through some kind

39:32

of technology, this kind of, I

39:34

say something and you hear something at the other

39:36

end. And

39:36

and so III

39:38

think people who are experiencing more emotional trauma

39:41

or trying emotional stress, trying to recalibrate

39:43

from that, probably should try and have

39:45

more of a kind of immersive experience

39:47

with other people who

39:50

are supportive. I love that. That's a

39:51

great tip before we let you go, David.

39:53

And to be honest, I really don't wanna let

39:55

you go because I feel like this is

39:57

such a great conversation. What

40:00

is the most important tenant you

40:02

think of achieving well-being?

40:04

I would say

40:05

that stop for a second.

40:07

back to the thirty thousand foot view of your

40:10

life for a moment and say what's

40:12

important and make sure that

40:14

you do the things that are

40:16

most important and you interact with the people who are the most

40:18

important and you try and declutter all the

40:20

things that aren't. After I

40:22

come back, from

40:24

a trip where I haven't been able to look at my email for like a week. Most

40:26

of the steps I delete, delete, delete,

40:28

because it didn't matter. But if I was actually

40:30

there on the job, I'd be messing

40:33

with stuff all the time. So I think that if you

40:35

kind of try and at the top level

40:38

say what's most important and then

40:40

use technology

40:43

in a way to kinda support the things that are

40:45

most important, you'll probably have a better

40:47

life experience. What a

40:49

great way to wrap up?

40:51

David, thank you for coming on

40:53

the show. So amazing. I

40:55

feel honestly, I

40:58

feel like I'm gonna make every CEO listen to this

41:00

episode because clearly

41:02

giving people time to take breaks and

41:04

take a vacation is how you get

41:08

productive employees. So thank you for coming on the show

41:10

today. Yes. I agree. Thanks.

41:12

It was a pleasure.

41:18

If there

41:20

is

41:21

absolutely one thing

41:23

that I'm walking away this

41:25

episode with, if it's the

41:27

fact that I need to

41:30

start actually

41:31

being

41:32

way more present in my vacations

41:34

and the time that I'm spending with my loved

41:37

ones and not seeing my

41:40

vacation through

41:42

the camera Right? Like the fact that my memories are

41:44

going to register so

41:46

much stronger when I'm actually

41:48

watching them and experiencing them versus trying

41:50

to take

41:52

pictures of them, it just really sort of resonated

41:54

with me. And so I feel like I'm gonna try really

41:56

hard to change my behavior and

41:59

make those

41:59

amazing memories versus trying to capture

42:01

those memories on my phone. What do you

42:03

do to stay present while on

42:05

vacation? Tell us, we're at Expedia

42:07

and at PRX. For

42:10

more info on episodes,

42:12

guests, and to find travel

42:14

inspiration, be sure to visit out travel the

42:16

systems blog at

42:18

expedia dot com forward slash stories forward

42:19

slash podcast.

42:23

I

42:24

wanna thank

42:25

David Strayer for coming on

42:27

the show today and really

42:29

enlightening us on just being

42:31

more mindful when we travel. It's

42:33

such an important thing. In if you have

42:35

any questions for me or comments thoughts, of course, be sure to hit

42:37

me up. You can DM us on at

42:40

expedia or you can visit

42:42

expedia dot

42:44

com forward slash out travel the system. Follow, subscribe

42:46

and share so that you don't miss

42:49

an episode. Out travel the

42:51

system is brought to you by

42:54

Expedia. with

42:54

special thanks to PRX and Sonic Union. I'm

42:56

the executive producer

42:57

and your host, Miss Reina

42:59

Tawsey. Special thanks to

43:02

the following. Additional writing

43:04

by Camu Ololia, producer,

43:06

Rashika Sharma, Associate producers,

43:08

Simon Mohammed, and Nathaniel

43:11

Taylor, Production assistant is Alex Keel

43:13

and Carolina Garago, theme

43:16

music and original

43:18

composition by Kevin j Simon, music edit, sound

43:20

design, and mix by Rob

43:22

Balingall, and music supervision

43:25

by Justin Morris. Executive

43:28

producer and writer, Halle Petro,

43:30

PRX executive producer, Jocelyn

43:34

Gonzalez, and travel the system is recorded with Sonic Union in New

43:36

York City. Next week,

43:38

we're gonna be talking about the larger

43:40

impacts of travel with the

43:42

one and only