0:05

You're listening to the

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outclassed podcast exploring

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Excellence in Teaching tech and

0:08

leadership.

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All right, so welcome back to the class podcast. It's great to have

0:18

Hamish curry with me today.

0:21

Hamish, we go back a little way

0:21

I was looking on Twitter. I

0:25

remember sitting in Melbourne

0:25

and down there doing some some

0:29

professional development on

0:29

Google, I believe, just as

0:32

Google was starting to come out,

0:32

and schools were starting to get

0:35

interested. And I'd find from

0:35

Sydney down in Melbourne and had

0:38

one of those rare nights where I

0:38

didn't have anything on and I

0:40

remember just putting on

0:40

Twitter, my note like, hey,

0:43

Melbourne, if anyone wants to

0:43

catch up, let us know. And then

0:45

I got a DM from you. And say,

0:45

Hey, I'd love to catch up. And

0:50

you were working in the library?

0:50

Not a school library, the public

0:53

library. Yeah, she was at the

0:53

city library that you were in at

0:57

the time. That's the Yeah, the

0:57

Victorian State Library. Yeah.

1:00

Yeah.

1:02

That's a good

1:02

memory, Mike. When that totally

1:05

sounds like me back in those

1:05

days, networking like crazy.

1:08

Yeah, yeah, that's

1:09

all I remember

1:09

catching up with you. Just

1:11

having a drink after work one

1:11

day, and just hearing about some

1:14

of the cool things you are doing

1:14

in thinking. I've, to be honest,

1:18

I've been pretty much in the in

1:18

the education space, and not

1:21

really connected in the, like

1:21

public library space. But to be

1:26

honest, it seems like you're one

1:26

of the first people that ever

1:28

talked to me about how libraries

1:28

could be something other than

1:31

just a collection of books for

1:31

people to come and read. So

1:35

yeah, well, and

1:35

it's interesting, like you look

1:37

back on it now, and what people

1:37

thought was going to happen to

1:42

libraries, and what has actually

1:42

happened to libraries, you know,

1:45

those that really embrace

1:45

technology and didn't say Google

1:49

as the enemy, but also didn't

1:49

try and be the bookshop have

1:54

actually done really well. And I

1:54

guess that was my brief coming

1:57

into the state library. I mean,

1:57

I came straight out of teach

2:00

being a teacher in school, I'd

2:00

lead a united City Campus

2:05

program in Melbourne. So I kind

2:05

of cut my teeth on really

2:08

pushing, learning for teenagers

2:08

in really creative ways. And so

2:13

when I came into the library,

2:13

it's like, how do we change, you

2:16

know, what is one of the oldest

2:16

public libraries in Australia to

2:19

kind of modernize a bit. And so

2:19

I started to bring in like video

2:23

games and, and he films and, and

2:23

I started to join up. What I've

2:30

always been interested in

2:30

education, which is, it's not

2:33

just about the school community,

2:33

the teachers, the school

2:36

leaders, and kids, it's all

2:36

these other businesses and

2:39

industries that actually have

2:39

something to share. And so

2:42

bringing in, for example, people

2:42

from the game industry, or the

2:45

film industry, or designers, and

2:45

people actually, a lot of that

2:51

time, a lot of the co working

2:51

spaces were were going growing,

2:57

particularly have Australia or

2:57

have Melbourne at that point.

3:00

And so bringing teachers into

3:00

contact with that wider world of

3:04

networks and tools was so

3:04

exciting. And I actually

3:08

remember around that time, one

3:08

of the things that we kicked off

3:14

was called the Vic PLN. So the

3:14

Victorian Professional Learning

3:18

Network, which started as kind

3:18

of a, it was a hashtag, which is

3:21

still going I looked at it, it's

3:21

still going after all these

3:25

years. And we also create an

3:25

online course to help teachers

3:29

learn about one of the top, like

3:29

20 tools they should be using,

3:32

you know. And then we also

3:32

started some physical networks,

3:35

like bringing teachers in to

3:35

just talk about how is how is

3:39

technology? And how is pedagogy

3:39

evolving with what's happening

3:44

in the world. And it was such a

3:44

an amazing time. And I think one

3:49

of the things that came out of

3:49

that was a lot of really

3:52

interesting relationships and

3:52

pleading with yourself that have

3:55

lasted the years are those that

3:55

have always been looking at the

3:58

edge. And that kept me going as

3:58

well. Like I just I just, I get

4:04

bored by routine. And I

4:04

constantly want to look at

4:07

Alright, is that better? And

4:07

where's the next interesting

4:09

thing come or Oh, that's really

4:09

shiny over there. Not that I not

4:13

that I follow too many shiny

4:13

leads and get exhausted, but

4:16

really looking for the missing

4:16

pieces that will make a

4:18

difference to education. That's

4:18

what kept me going.

4:21

Yeah, and it's interesting, because I think schools, maybe some of the

4:23

schools are starting to go down

4:26

that path and they're thinking

4:26

the answer is just a makerspace.

4:29

Or we'll put some cold beanbags

4:29

in a corner and maybe Chuck an

4:34

Xbox up there or something. And

4:34

then you know, we're digitizing

4:37

the library but there's so much

4:37

opportunity in that library

4:41

space for them to lead a digital

4:41

pedagogy in a sense, right

4:45

because they they they hold so

4:45

much knowledge and content and

4:49

and so on even remember showing

4:49

librarians initially Google

4:52

Books and how to take all the

4:52

ISBN and put it into your own

4:56

little Google Books scenario to

4:56

have the students searching for

4:59

the Google Book. So in on Google

4:59

rather than the catalog in,

5:03

yeah, well, all

5:03

that stuff you, you suddenly,

5:05

like Google library suddenly had

5:05

a really, really even more

5:09

relevant role to talk about

5:09

like, so how do we use Google

5:13

Scholar or, you know, I got

5:13

interested in things like Google

5:16

ngram, which is still going

5:16

thankfully, they haven't, you

5:19

know, case, I love that idea of

5:19

like, visualizing words from

5:22

books and all the stuff that

5:22

tech could do that suddenly

5:26

connected to people that had

5:26

really deep knowledge of how

5:28

information worked. And, you

5:28

know, libraries, libraries, some

5:33

schools got rid of that librarian thought, Oh, we've got good, we don't need libraries.

5:34

But actually, it was the opposite. Because libraries

5:36

became the hub, the school, they

5:39

were the makerspace, they were

5:39

the information space. And I was

5:43

always advocating for libraries

5:43

to just envision themselves as

5:48

having a much more pivotal role.

5:48

And I still think I remember I

5:52

actually gave a keynote at edgy

5:52

tackle a number of years ago,

5:56

but my whole talk was about,

5:56

it's not a library inside a

6:00

school, what if it was a school

6:00

inside a library. So the whole

6:04

idea of redesign the way

6:04

information and learning and

6:07

access works, where age is

6:07

blurred, interests are aligned.

6:12

And information flows are much

6:12

more based around passion,

6:17

synergy momentum. And they're

6:17

the things actually, when it

6:22

comes to design, that you can

6:22

make education even better than

6:27

it was. And that's the thing

6:27

that keeps me going.

6:30

And it's interesting to like that whole connection to community piece

6:32

for a school library is very

6:36

important as well. So one of our

6:36

IT trainers, Joe, he found a way

6:40

to connect the school library

6:40

with the public library. So when

6:44

the students are searching, not

6:44

just a school library, they can

6:46

be actually searching the public

6:46

library database and have those

6:50

books come down to the school,

6:50

and he's just trying to find

6:52

ways to make those. Those

6:52

connections and libraries are

6:56

always trying to find ways to

6:56

stay relevant.

6:59

Oh, yeah. Well, in

6:59

the age of co working, I mean,

7:02

kind of like libraries were the

7:02

original co working environment.

7:05

Right, you know, so it is

7:05

interesting that, you know, if

7:09

you sit still others will just

7:09

innovate around you. So

7:12

someone's like, saying, why

7:12

should all this co working exist

7:15

when we have libraries? You

7:15

know, libraries, aren't the kind

7:19

of the Shoosh environment that

7:19

people suspect so. So yeah, it's

7:23

it's been a really interesting

7:23

transition. And I've enjoyed the

7:28

journey of watching education

7:28

evolve. I mean, there's some

7:32

elements about school that

7:32

haven't changed, but but I think

7:35

we're beginning to either live

7:35

with it or start to bend the

7:37

rules a bit more.

7:38

Yeah. So on that,

7:38

so you went from in libraries to

7:41

working for no rush for a number

7:41

of years. So I think, what did

7:44

you say? Three, four years?

7:46

Yeah, that's

7:46

right. Yeah. So that was very

7:48

much the moving into kind of the

7:48

design thinking for learning.

7:51

And I got very much into design

7:51

thinking while I was at the

7:55

library, starting to see it as a

7:55

space that, you know, the days

7:59

of Tim Brown and IDEO, evolving,

7:59

that it was going to be huge.

8:04

And when I came into nature, I

8:04

didn't really know much about

8:07

designing, but I quickly

8:07

realized that, as a teacher

8:11

always interested in how we

8:11

design learning differently, and

8:13

how do we find a better process

8:13

that design thinking was just

8:17

made for, you know, really good

8:17

learning. So bringing the

8:22

critical and the creative

8:22

thinking worlds together. And

8:26

one of the other really

8:26

interesting things from that

8:28

four years with no, Tosh was

8:28

having the opportunity to well

8:32

live out of a suitcase, not that

8:32

that's as glamorous as everyone

8:35

thinks, you know, that, you

8:35

know, but going to visit so many

8:40

schools around Australia and

8:40

internationally, like I went to

8:44

China, Japan, Germany, Egypt's

8:44

New Zealand, Singapore, and it

8:54

just showed me lots of things

8:54

about how schools and education

8:58

systems around the world are

8:58

often in alignment around what

9:01

they're trying to change. It's

9:01

just they're often dealing with

9:04

different constraints. And the

9:04

same would go if I was working

9:08

with a school in Perth or a

9:08

school in Brisbane, if you can

9:12

understand the constraints of

9:12

your school, they're often quite

9:14

unique. And I used to say that

9:14

your schools are like a

9:17

fingerprint. Every school is

9:17

slightly different. Its culture

9:21

is different, its learning

9:21

environment is different. And if

9:25

you can understand that, then

9:25

you can start to innovate rather

9:28

than these kind of, oh, you

9:28

know, I say that High Tech High

9:31

is doing that, then we should do

9:31

it or it's the cookie cutter

9:35

model. And education is not

9:35

always been an effective one,

9:38

which is why I think curriculum

9:38

is a tough one to scale. And it

9:43

has to be customized at the at

9:43

the school level.

9:46

Yeah, yeah. One of

9:46

my favorite quotes is from

9:48

Dillon Williams, where he says

9:48

everything will work somewhere,

9:51

but not everything works

9:51

everywhere. So you need to ask,

9:54

why is this working? And so

9:54

that's one of the things we talk

9:57

a lot to school leaders about is

9:57

that you can Don't take

10:01

somebody's program, you can take

10:01

the principle. But you can't

10:04

take the program because even

10:04

we've found principals who are

10:07

very successful in one school,

10:07

and they leave. And they're

10:10

like, I'm just going to take my

10:10

suitcase and implement that in

10:13

my new school and it fails. And

10:13

they sit there. And they wonder

10:16

why. And it's because I felt

10:16

understand that they were

10:19

looking at the unique context.

10:19

And they built something

10:21

uniquely for that. So it's

10:21

always interesting to me when we

10:25

go to big tech conferences, and

10:25

people talk about their school

10:29

and their programs and the

10:29

things that they're doing. And

10:31

we all get inspired and want to

10:31

come back and drive that same

10:35

sort of change in our schools.

10:35

And we wonder why it doesn't

10:37

work. It's around that, that,

10:37

that design, like that design

10:41

thinking process, where it's

10:41

very much customized to the

10:43

school?

10:44

Yeah. Well, and

10:44

it's a good reminder, right?

10:47

Like the idea that wait a

10:47

minute, it no trash, we talk

10:49

about those three layers, the

10:49

mindset, the skill set, and the

10:52

toolset. And that's, it's a

10:52

decreasing focus, like, so

10:57

everyone goes to the tech

10:57

conference, right? You know, so

11:00

it looks like zoom is the next

11:00

big thing, you know, and so but

11:02

that's just a tool set. Like if

11:02

you don't have the right mindset

11:06

around why we're using it, how

11:06

is it going to help our

11:09

community? And do we have the

11:09

right skills, just start using

11:13

it in creative ways, then the

11:13

tool is, is like a, you know,

11:17

it's an add on. And at the

11:17

moment, you know, there are so

11:20

many tools for everything, it's

11:20

not, if you know what your

11:24

problem, if you can really

11:24

define your problem, then there

11:27

will probably be a tool that

11:27

will help you get most of the

11:30

way there are a combination of

11:30

tools, not the other way around.

11:33

So we've got to be very careful

11:33

of the of the quick fix. And the

11:37

same was true in some of the

11:37

projects I worked on at no

11:39

charge around looking at school

11:39

design. So you know, looking at

11:44

master plans and the development

11:44

of new school architecture, same

11:48

principle, but but sometimes

11:48

phenomenally more expensive, you

11:53

know, building more classrooms

11:53

or, or creating or designing a

11:58

new school has as much in it

11:58

about the mindset and culture as

12:02

it does about the final tool set

12:02

of the build. And that's the

12:05

last thing you worry about. So,

12:05

you know, when people come up

12:09

with the Master Plan, the first

12:09

thing they want to do is I'll

12:12

let's go and visit all these

12:12

amazing schools. And the work

12:16

that I was doing was actually

12:16

you know, that's that's, like,

12:18

maybe halfway through the

12:18

process. Because until you can

12:22

get your own mindset and what's

12:22

who who is your school? What do

12:25

they need? What are you trying

12:25

to create? What's the vision,

12:30

then when you go into another

12:30

school or another learning

12:33

environment, you'll then be able

12:33

to, I used to say, you can read

12:36

the room? So literally, you can

12:36

read the rigor, right? Well,

12:39

that's not going to suit our

12:39

pedagogy or not. That's, that's

12:42

not us, you know, whereas if you

12:42

just start with the tools, you

12:45

Oh, I like those chairs. Oh, I

12:45

love these, you know, green

12:49

screens, and and you just get

12:49

distracted by the by the

12:53

peripheral stuff.

12:54

Yeah. Yeah. So in

12:54

those programs, were you working

12:57

with schools from concept to

12:57

implementation? Because one of

13:02

the reason I ask is one of the

13:02

things I see so much is that

13:06

leaders will go off and they'll

13:06

do a design thinking program or

13:09

a course and they'll walk away

13:09

with these wonderful hexagons,

13:12

or colored post it notes. That

13:12

was probably about the need for

13:16

change. And then you go back in,

13:16

you see them six or 12 months

13:19

later, and they haven't done a

13:19

damn thing about it. Like,

13:22

somewhere there's this missing

13:22

step between inspiration and

13:26

actual perspiration and getting

13:26

getting the work done. And yeah,

13:30

that's,

13:31

that's so true,

13:31

Mike. And look, it does come

13:35

down to commitment. It comes

13:35

down to understanding that

13:39

change requires a lot of

13:39

patience and perseverance, and

13:43

actually requires leadership,

13:43

something that I think, you

13:47

know, without pointing fingers,

13:47

I think leadership is hugely,

13:51

hugely important in driving

13:51

change. And not just leadership,

13:56

as in I will you're the

13:56

principal or the CEO, or the the

13:59

executive director. I often used

13:59

to borrow a phrase, and I still

14:03

do a phrase from Will Richardson

14:03

he talks about leader shift,

14:07

which is the other who are the

14:07

other leaders that have an

14:10

opportunity to come forward, you

14:10

know, middle managers, school,

14:15

school, school students, you

14:15

know, who are the leaders, we

14:18

can discover through this

14:18

process and give them a chance

14:20

to shine. And then that's the

14:20

thing where schools go, it's not

14:24

just or the school principals

14:24

are realizing it's not just us.

14:28

Like we've got this really

14:28

capable group of people in our

14:33

school. That includes the

14:33

students, the students aren't

14:35

just there to risk be the

14:35

receivers of learning. They are

14:38

co designers of that learning

14:38

something that we see happening

14:43

more and more now. But even

14:43

five, six years ago, it wasn't

14:48

really a big thing. And there

14:48

weren't many people really doing

14:53

it. Well.

14:54

Yeah. So if I'm a

14:54

principal and I've been to her,

14:57

like a design thing, I've been

14:57

through that process I'd like I

15:00

get it. I know my score needs to

15:00

change. I know that there's

15:05

areas of improvement. But like,

15:05

I'm just not getting it done

15:09

like, have you found? Like, what

15:09

would you say to a principal

15:12

like me? Who's Who's really

15:12

struggling in that space around

15:16

the actual implementation of

15:16

these ideas? Was there one sort

15:21

of thing? Like, is there one

15:21

piece of advice? Or that you

15:24

would normally go to a principal

15:24

and say, Listen, just, if you

15:27

can make this domino fall, then

15:27

you'll start to see some

15:29

momentum? Or was it really case

15:29

by case?

15:32

Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's a interesting one. Mike, I guess

15:34

it is a little bit case by case

15:36

because sometimes I think about

15:36

No, so what was the genesis of

15:39

that idea? Where did it come

15:39

from? Like, what if it was just

15:42

you pushing that barrier, then

15:42

yeah, that's, that's going to be

15:46

hard. Because you're, you're,

15:46

then you're, you're, you know,

15:51

charisma and conviction carry so

15:51

much of the responsibility

15:55

versus, you know, a project that

15:55

I once worked in, in in Perth

16:00

and WA, where it was a school

16:00

master planning project. And one

16:04

of my biggest challenges in the

16:04

table of school leaders that I

16:08

was working with was, was the

16:08

head of the maths department,

16:13

because he'd been teaching for

16:13

35 years, and it was, you know,

16:16

very traditional way of

16:16

approaching and he wasn't going

16:19

to budge. By the end of the

16:19

process, we started to look at

16:23

what was possible. And we'd seen

16:23

what some of the students really

16:27

wanted to help change their own

16:27

learning. And he adapted a

16:31

couple of them, all of a sudden,

16:31

his classroom became the model.

16:36

Like, he's, and he, I distinctly

16:36

remember the son of the one of

16:40

the final session, he said, you

16:40

know, after 35 years of

16:42

teaching, I finally realized

16:42

what I can do to reinvigorate my

16:47

own passion, see kids learn

16:47

differently. And I've got a much

16:51

more differentiated maths

16:51

classrooms as a senior maths

16:54

classroom. And of course, at

16:54

that point, it's a bit like the

16:58

bell curve, everyone else kind

16:58

of will, geez, if he can change

17:02

like that, surely, we must be

17:02

doing something we could change

17:06

too. So. So you kind of

17:06

sometimes it depends where you

17:11

where you want your wins, and

17:11

change is not wholesale, it just

17:16

doesn't happen. Like everyone

17:16

doesn't just change overnight.

17:21

And the pandemic that we've been

17:21

through over the last couple of

17:24

years, has been a lovely example

17:24

of where education can, in fact,

17:29

adapt overnight, because

17:29

teachers are incredibly flexible

17:33

and adaptable. But you can't

17:33

sustain that level of change.

17:36

Like, as we're seeing now, I

17:36

think, you know, schools and

17:41

educators are exhausted, because

17:41

it's just been adapting change

17:45

after change after change. And

17:45

there's there's almost no relief

17:49

in sight. So change has to have

17:49

a whole lot of other things

17:52

behind it for it to really stick.

17:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

17:54

I think you'd look at it like

17:57

seasons, is housing explaining

17:57

it to a principal just this

18:01

week, because he was the same,

18:01

the same thing when the pandemic

18:03

hit is a large international

18:03

school. He said, They shifted

18:07

their pedagogy in the first like

18:07

six weeks, like they had a bit

18:11

of a plan of how they wanted

18:11

things to change over the like,

18:13

the next three years. In terms

18:13

of the school improvement plan,

18:18

he said, like they, they ticked

18:18

off everything in their three

18:20

year plan in six weeks, because

18:20

they just had to, but we're at

18:25

that last hurdle for them to

18:25

really finish off that change

18:28

program. And he's saying he's

18:28

struggling to get their buy in

18:32

right now. Because everyone's

18:32

exhausted, and they're just done

18:34

with it. That initial enthusiasm

18:34

that everyone had, has now

18:39

waned, and I was like, it's just

18:39

a season, you've got to, you got

18:42

to realize that you might feel

18:42

like you're in winter right now.

18:45

But springs coming, you know, so

18:45

don't, don't sweat it, just let

18:49

it roll. Up, and you'll change.

18:52

Yeah, and

18:52

sometimes empathy is your best

18:55

friend. Like just just instead

18:55

of giving over time to really

18:58

listen to people, and understand

18:58

their issues and challenges, not

19:02

that I can solve it

19:02

straightaway. But it just helps

19:04

me to understand the landscape

19:04

rather than just saying that

19:08

we're just going to keep pushing

19:08

through, you end up you end up

19:12

either breaking yourself or

19:12

breaking a lot of other people

19:15

and it doesn't, doesn't help the

19:15

cultural learning environment at

19:18

all.

19:18

Yeah, yeah. That's

19:18

so true. My dad always used to

19:21

say to me, like, see time

19:21

harvest. And the thing I always

19:25

struggle with the most of the

19:25

time part, like I just want to

19:28

see water bomb. Give it to me.

19:31

Yeah, me too. I'm

19:31

so impatient with that.

19:33

Yeah, same he's

19:33

like, son time time. It's going

19:36

to take time. It's gonna be

19:36

alright. Yeah,

19:39

yeah, humans are

19:39

not very patient. I think we're

19:41

not we're not bred to be

19:41

patient, which is why we really

19:44

we suck at slow change. We

19:44

really suck.

19:47

Yeah, yeah. That's

19:47

super interesting. So then yeah,

19:52

so you went from library when

19:52

design thinking no Tosh side of

19:55

things and then you saw your pop

19:55

up all of a sudden, cuz every

19:58

now and just check out where

19:58

you're at? on Twitter and sorry

20:01

with Asia, it was called Asier.

20:01

Education.

20:04

Yeah, Asia

20:04

Education Foundation. Yeah.

20:07

Yeah. And again, it was it was

20:07

like another change where I was

20:10

like, like with the library, and

20:10

then with designing, I was like,

20:14

Wait, what am I doing here to

20:14

actually understand this

20:17

environment? And I think for me,

20:17

what I've always endeavored to

20:22

understand is that space of

20:22

education and learning and how

20:25

do we design great learning. And

20:25

so the past four years at HR

20:30

Education Foundation, were

20:30

massive lesson in understanding,

20:34

like, what does intercultural

20:34

learning look like not just

20:37

across Australia, but how does

20:37

it tie us into our own

20:40

neighborhood. And I think it's

20:40

something that not many

20:44

Australians, and Australian

20:44

school children, and teachers

20:48

have the ability to really

20:48

understand the value of our own

20:51

neighborhood. And that includes

20:51

actually, you know, our own

20:58

evolution as a nation. So often,

20:58

people would think of Asia

21:05

Education Foundation as being I

21:05

will, I guess, that's all about

21:08

Asia, and, you know, going on

21:08

trips to China or connecting

21:12

with teachers in Japan. But

21:12

increasingly, my emphasis moved

21:18

to actually looking at Asia in

21:18

Australia. And in fact, Asia is

21:22

so much a part of Australia it

21:22

you know, 30%, or more actually,

21:27

of Australians now have Asian

21:27

heritage. And so this is our

21:32

society it and this is who we

21:32

are in Australia is is richer

21:36

for it, but we often try to play

21:36

it down, or we have ongoing

21:40

issues around prejudice. And one

21:40

of the things that the wider

21:47

organization at EY F, which is

21:47

called Asia link, one of the

21:50

wider issues they kept talking

21:50

about was looking at the bamboo

21:53

ceiling, which is how do we help

21:53

Asian Australians now present

21:59

themselves in leadership roles

21:59

that have opportunities for

22:02

leadership roles in Australian

22:02

society? And I think we've hit

22:05

that point, but we're beginning

22:05

to hit that point, you know,

22:09

where the whole idea and I

22:09

remember, it was actually a New

22:12

York Times article that had the

22:12

title of something like, you

22:16

know, after 200 years in

22:16

Australia, Chinese Australians

22:19

finally can call it home. You

22:19

know, so we have this, we

22:22

forget, we have this concept

22:22

sense that it's recent, but it

22:26

hasn't like it's been happening

22:26

over decades. And so again,

22:29

coming to that slow change

22:29

point, where it's been

22:32

happening, we just didn't really

22:32

pay attention to it. And so I

22:36

really enjoyed the work at AT A

22:36

F in trying to help people start

22:40

to shift their perspective and

22:40

suddenly get a wider field of

22:43

vision to things that they

22:43

hadn't really noticed. And

22:46

that's often a good space for learning.

22:48

All right, so what

22:48

was the like, initially, you

22:51

said, your focus changed to

22:51

that, but was the original

22:54

focus? What was the original

22:54

focus? Was it trying to draw

23:00

more international students to

23:00

Australia was getting us more

23:03

influential overseas, like, what

23:03

was the play there?

23:06

Yeah, that's, that's interesting, I guess, I guess, we AF wasn't as concerned

23:08

about international students,

23:13

although we looked at that. And

23:13

because we were based at

23:17

University of Melbourne, there was a sense, people assumed that we must all be about

23:19

international students, but

23:21

actually, we were very much a

23:21

schools focused organization.

23:26

And so we were very much looking

23:26

at how do we engage a strange

23:30

schools in understanding and

23:30

learning about Asia in new ways.

23:36

And I guess the usual way to do

23:36

that is through the curriculum.

23:41

But we would do that through a

23:41

whole bunch of other levers. So

23:44

we had school partnership

23:44

programs that would tie

23:47

Australian schools to schools,

23:47

across about 23 Different

23:52

nations across Asia Pacific. We

23:52

had youth programs, we had

23:56

professional development

23:56

programs. And I think the bit

24:00

the status shift for me was, is

24:00

there a different way of talking

24:04

about this space that we're in?

24:04

And when I say that, I mean, in

24:11

the curriculum, we might talk

24:11

about it as intercultural

24:13

understanding which is in the

24:13

Australian Curriculum, the

24:16

Victorian curriculum calls it

24:16

intercultural capability, but

24:20

almost the same thing. And then

24:20

I was looking at it from a

24:23

different perspective, or what

24:23

is actually just intercultural

24:25

learning what what does it look

24:25

like and what's and I came back

24:29

a little bit to some of my

24:29

grounding it No, Tasha and

24:33

looking at well, what's the

24:33

mindset that we need? What's the

24:36

skill set when we have the plus

24:36

one, you know, with one other

24:40

person out in front of me that I

24:40

have not really understood or

24:44

connected with before? And what

24:44

what's the tools that how do we

24:48

how do we start to work together

24:48

when sometimes there are all

24:52

sorts of cultural barriers, you

24:52

know, potential barriers that we

24:57

might perceive language

24:57

barriers, different have

25:00

protocols or just relationship

25:00

elements. So I always got the

25:07

best experience with that work

25:07

in watching a game, people's

25:13

perception of the world start to

25:13

break, you know, and you hear it

25:18

in the way people talk. And in

25:18

the nicest way, one of the sort

25:24

of informal measures I used to

25:24

think about was, educators might

25:29

talk in a language that suggests

25:29

there's a bit of a colonial

25:32

attitude of, oh, gosh, we've got

25:32

to help these poor schools in

25:36

Cambodia now that we've got to

25:36

help these poor people in Papua

25:40

New Guinea. And very quickly,

25:40

about six months in, I had

25:44

numerous conversations with

25:44

educators who said, Actually,

25:47

they're the ones helping us,

25:47

they're helping us realize that

25:50

it's all about, you know, good

25:50

relationships and sustainability

25:54

and doing actually innovating

25:54

with very little, or how to

25:59

really create love and

25:59

relationships inside a student

26:04

teacher. Program. And they're

26:04

almost envious, actually, I'm so

26:08

envious of what this school in

26:08

the Philippines has created. And

26:12

that was always a measurement success for me, because suddenly, it showed that the

26:14

Australian educators were

26:17

starting to shift their own

26:17

perception of what they thought

26:20

the job was. And I think that's

26:20

that they're the that's, I mean,

26:26

in the truest sense, I would

26:26

call that lifelong learning.

26:28

That's where I've now rewired my

26:28

opinion, or my assumptions, or

26:33

my stereotypes to be completely

26:33

different to what the world

26:37

actually is like.

26:39

So it was the

26:39

purpose to try and shift

26:43

teachers and students in their

26:43

thinking about Asia, or like,

26:46

I'm just trying, if I'm already.

26:46

So I'm a teacher. And I've

26:49

already got a very full

26:49

curriculum, obviously, there's

26:52

some elements of that, that I

26:52

need to satisfy in terms of

26:55

Australia specifically, but if

26:55

we broaden the conversation,

26:58

regardless of what country

26:58

you're in, I always wonder about

27:00

this, because, like we see a

27:00

lot. One of the reasons I was

27:04

thinking about you, particularly

27:04

probably last year, was, you

27:07

know, the whole pandemic thing,

27:07

and then everyone's blaming

27:10

China for it. And then

27:10

everyone's blaming China for 5g,

27:14

and you can't trust the Wi Fi.

27:14

And it seems to be like this

27:17

real political, almost what

27:17

we're seeing in Russia and

27:21

Ukraine at the moment, I'd hate

27:21

to be an educator that was

27:24

trying to bridge that gap at the

27:24

moment. And then the racial

27:27

tensions in in America, that

27:27

that are spilling over at the

27:31

moment, and I was actually

27:31

thinking about you almost

27:34

sitting in the center of this

27:34

melting pot of Asian education.

27:38

And I was just thinking, I

27:38

wonder what the tensions are.

27:40

Yeah, and how you're managing

27:40

those tensions right now and how

27:43

you can have like, open and

27:43

honest discussions with schools.

27:46

And

27:47

yeah, I would say

27:47

probably the one of the most

27:49

shocking things that I saw. So I

27:49

my last trip to China was in

27:54

November 2019. So just before,

27:54

like, the pandemic kicked in,

28:01

and it was that trip to China

28:01

was with some Australian school

28:05

principals. And it was full of

28:05

so much opportunity, warmth,

28:10

relationships, shared

28:10

pedagogical purpose, like how do

28:15

we really develop creativity in

28:15

education, and to see where it

28:20

went. It really just shows the

28:20

power, again, of leadership that

28:27

seeks to divide rather than

28:27

unite. Media that gives out

28:32

stories that actually perpetuate

28:32

the UN, I used to think about

28:37

the difference between when you

28:37

talk about China, the country

28:40

and China and Chinese people.

28:40

It's like saying, when I you

28:45

know, if I went to China, and

28:45

people say, Oh, Australia, like

28:50

you're a bunch of, you know,

28:50

bogans. And it's like, well,

28:54

we're not all like that, of

28:54

course, we're not all. And in

28:56

fact, yes. Most people in most

28:56

countries are not all like that.

29:01

And so we paint, we paint

29:01

countries, like there are a

29:05

whole glob of people, when

29:05

there's a whole lot of different

29:09

factors at work. And when you

29:09

start to develop the

29:11

relationships, people, it's

29:11

very, very different. And one of

29:15

the things that disappointed me

29:15

most was to see some of those

29:18

education, relationships break

29:18

down because now China was

29:22

suddenly seen as being off

29:22

limits, and not and I had some

29:27

connections with school leaders

29:27

in China last year. And none of

29:32

that passion and interest had

29:32

waned. It was just like, to be

29:37

honest, the unspoken thing was

29:37

Why have you stopped talking to

29:40

us? Yeah. Why have Why have why?

29:40

And it's kind of it's a it's a

29:45

facetious question. We know why.

29:45

Yeah, but but actually, that's

29:49

not who we are. We still want we

29:49

still care about education and

29:53

learning and I heard Australian

29:53

school leaders say that we

29:56

brought them together with some

29:56

Chinese school leaders online

29:59

and Then at the end of the

29:59

session, we did a debrief with

30:02

the Australian educators, they

30:02

were like, wow, they are so

30:05

committed creative, passionate.

30:05

And you could just hear them and

30:09

all them going. Yeah, that's not

30:09

what I thought was gonna happen,

30:13

you know, and you can hear them

30:13

rewiring as they're speaking.

30:16

And that's great. But, you know,

30:16

but I always set the goal. Well,

30:20

that's 20 school leaders that

30:20

are now rewired, I need 2000.

30:24

And I think we're in a really

30:24

challenging point in our

30:27

education, where that anti China

30:27

rhetoric has an is going to have

30:34

an impact on education where

30:34

kids will go, well, I shouldn't

30:37

be learning Mandarin. Or we

30:37

shouldn't be doing stuff on

30:40

China or, and it's, it's all a

30:40

fallacy, but it's somehow been

30:45

implanted there from from both

30:45

misinformation disinformation.

30:51

And actually suspicion and

30:51

that's where prejudice starts

30:55

its roots. And again, coming

30:55

back to my earlier point about

31:00

Chinese Australians, people

31:00

who've called this country home

31:04

for generations, we don't

31:04

suddenly really were suddenly

31:08

putting them aside. And I, I can

31:08

say it now. But there were

31:11

stories I heard from from school

31:11

leaders who, whose whose parents

31:15

reacted to other Chinese

31:15

families at school, around

31:19

exclusion, and suspicion, I was

31:19

like, Are you kidding me? Is

31:23

that actually happening? Saying

31:23

yes. So the thing that doesn't

31:27

filter down into education, we

31:27

would be kidding ourselves. And

31:31

that was a was suppose an

31:31

anxiety and a stress that I

31:35

carry, and I still carry it with

31:35

me. It's like, Man, I can't

31:39

believe that we would let that

31:39

happen in education, when that's

31:42

what the purpose of education is

31:42

all about. Informing the

31:47

challenging our knowledge of the

31:47

world and helping us to make it

31:51

better. If we're not doing that

31:51

in education, then we're doing

31:55

something seriously wrong.

31:58

Part of the

31:58

tension isn't because seems like

32:00

everything falls on educators in

32:00

one sense, right? There's this

32:06

the world is going in this

32:06

direction, somehow education is

32:09

going to be the answer. We need

32:09

to we need to stop it now. We

32:12

need to pivot and education is

32:12

where it's not. We're not

32:15

looking at corporate America to

32:15

solve this or corporate

32:18

Australia to solve these issues.

32:18

We're looking at teachers

32:22

ultimately lead to do it. It's

32:25

I mean, that's

32:25

such a good pickup, Mike. I

32:28

mean, I, again, I so feel for

32:28

the work that teachers do. And

32:34

so few people outside of

32:34

education really understand. And

32:40

I was thinking of yesterday of

32:40

that famous slam poet Taylor

32:43

Marley, like what are you

32:43

remember that like what a

32:46

teacher makes if anyone has

32:46

listened to go and listen to it

32:49

again, like either over a dinner

32:49

table? So what is the teacher

32:52

making salary? And he gets it,

32:52

I'll tell you what a teacher

32:55

makes. And it's just so

32:55

uplifting, right? It's something

32:58

shows you the job of an

32:58

educator. And that's what

33:01

teachers do it. And I think in

33:01

Australia, we have a real issue

33:04

with how we value educators and

33:04

I come back to it's the role of

33:08

leadership, not necessarily

33:08

school leadership, but

33:11

leadership in Australian

33:11

jurisdictions to really start to

33:16

do something to support. The

33:16

work that teaches doing has got

33:19

far more complex than it has and

33:19

the pandemic has made it more

33:24

complex. But by that same

33:24

notion, I think, out of

33:28

complexity can come innovation

33:28

and opportunity. If we're ready

33:32

to let some stuff go and embrace

33:32

a little bit of how to do it

33:38

differently. That helps

33:38

everyone. Yeah,

33:40

I've got a sense

33:40

of the moment. Like if we think

33:43

the pandemics change things, I

33:43

don't think we've seen anything

33:46

yet. If you look at the great

33:46

resignation, which is happening

33:49

with principals just leaving in

33:49

droves, in terms of those

33:53

leaders, they like were out. If

33:53

you look at the level of stress

33:57

and emotional toll that's been

33:57

taken on teachers, if you have a

34:02

look at students, regardless of

34:02

what you think of the pandemic,

34:06

but basically masked up, not

34:06

able to communicate, the I'm

34:11

talking about young kids coming

34:11

through a school system that

34:14

they don't even know what it's

34:14

like to sit through school for a

34:17

whole year because of lock

34:17

downs. That whole socialization

34:22

site like give that five years

34:22

to run. We're going to see some

34:26

interesting things happening.

34:26

And again, it's going to be on

34:28

the school, and we're still

34:28

gonna see headlines like

34:31

literacy is dropping, numeracy

34:31

dropping, social anxiety

34:36

skyrocketing. It's gonna have to

34:36

come to that point where it's

34:41

got to be innovation or die

34:41

surely. Because

34:44

yeah, and to be

34:44

honest, too, I think my kids an

34:47

opportunity to actually look for

34:47

some more unity. And I think

34:52

Australia occupies a very

34:52

special place in the world,

34:57

unfortunately, not a terribly

34:57

good one. Like we're one of the

34:59

most stratified education

34:59

systems in the world, between

35:04

government independent, and

35:04

other like Catholic sectors or

35:09

other religious denomination

35:09

schools, and I think some of the

35:13

most inspiring work is having

35:13

happen is when schools across

35:17

jurisdictions start to work

35:17

together. And just the other

35:21

day, I was speaking with a

35:21

school leader, who talked about

35:23

work they've been doing, where

35:23

they brought together, schools

35:27

across those jurisdictions. And

35:27

they said, the same thing, the

35:31

conversation in was where you're

35:31

doing amazing stuff, just down

35:34

the road that we had no idea and

35:34

we can really learn from you.

35:37

And in fact, you know, it's a

35:37

government government school

35:40

versus this big, independent

35:40

school down the road. I think

35:42

sometimes, again, we need to

35:42

really understand our

35:45

neighborhood and our community,

35:45

if we're to look for the

35:47

solution, the solution can't

35:47

come from one school, one

35:51

organization, or we'll fix it,

35:51

it's going to require, well, you

35:55

know, that classic saying it's

35:55

going to require a community and

35:58

a village to really shift what

35:58

we do in education. And I think

36:02

there's a willingness there.

36:02

There are definitely people out

36:05

there who are looking to bring

36:05

that unity together, what we've

36:08

got to do is start to do that

36:08

help them join those dots. And

36:12

that's something I've always found really, really interesting.

36:14

Yeah, yeah, I

36:14

think we're, yeah, that's one of

36:16

the things I missed the most, because though, we used to run a lot of events across Australia

36:18

and New Zealand, in particular,

36:22

we'd have everyone come from all

36:22

over different cities, different

36:26

contexts, sometimes even

36:26

different platforms. So you got

36:29

like people who are very Googly

36:29

talking to someone who's very

36:33

committed to Microsoft or Apple

36:33

technologies, and, but they're

36:36

learning from one another in

36:36

terms of their context and what

36:39

they're doing. And like, I miss

36:39

those melting pot moments where

36:43

you, you get more learning out

36:43

of the lunch break than you do

36:46

out of the secondary run

36:46

sometimes Yeah.

36:50

With your that,

36:50

yeah. I said, Well, your lunch

36:52

break. So should we just skip

36:52

the afternoon session? And keep

36:54

talking? Yeah, let's do that.

36:56

Yeah, yeah. There's so much in that, isn't it? In terms of, and again, it's

36:58

like what you're saying,

37:00

bringing people together just to

37:00

have those conversations? And,

37:04

yeah, yeah, I

37:04

think we're all missing that

37:07

role missing that just that

37:07

human connection again, and

37:11

remind each other that we are

37:11

all human and fallible, and we

37:15

have our own hopes and dreams.

37:15

And, and together actually, we

37:18

can we can make each other just

37:18

feel a little better about what

37:22

we're doing. And that it's not,

37:22

it's not as it, you know, I

37:25

guess, you know, it's easy to

37:25

get drawn into the dire stuff.

37:29

And you've got to understand it,

37:29

but you can't live in it, it'll

37:32

just break you, you need to have

37:32

the thing that releases you that

37:34

that gives you optimism and a

37:34

sense of creative energy that

37:39

pulls you out. Yeah. So in

37:41

terms of that, I

37:41

don't know what you'd call it,

37:43

like culturally responsive

37:43

pedagogy, and so on, are there

37:47

any like fundamental building

37:47

blocks or things that we should

37:50

be thinking about? If we wanted

37:50

to go down and pursue that? Or

37:56

at least do some reflection on

37:56

it? Would there be a, like, how

38:00

would you start that process of

38:00

being a little bit more

38:03

culturally responsive? Would you say?

38:06

Look, maybe the

38:06

simple way to answer that one

38:09

would be, I think it's a, and

38:09

this was stuff that I was

38:13

working on, while I was at AF,

38:13

which was the idea of, I think

38:17

you start with two things, you

38:17

start with yourself. And

38:20

sometimes it's admitting that we

38:20

all carry assumptions. And in

38:23

fact, many of us all carry

38:23

stereotypes as well, about

38:27

ourselves and about others. And

38:27

if you can articulate and

38:30

understand those assumptions and

38:30

stereotypes, and also

38:34

acknowledge where there may have

38:34

been prejudice, it helps you

38:38

start to change the way you talk

38:38

or change the way you might see

38:41

things and just hold back a

38:41

little bit. And then the other

38:44

side of it is, is that the skill

38:44

set? And I think a lot has been

38:51

said about things like respect

38:51

and empathy. And I think in

38:56

schools respect sometimes means

38:56

a different thing to how I have

39:00

seen it. And respect is about

39:00

often culturally understanding

39:05

what's a respectful way to

39:05

engage. And it means maybe

39:08

changing the way you speak or

39:08

address or behave. And if you

39:12

can learn sometimes those

39:12

protocols. It's, it's it's like

39:16

a little bit of a superpower and

39:16

navigate things that otherwise

39:19

might have felt awkward. So

39:19

helping school principals

39:21

understand how to deal with

39:21

address and communicate with

39:26

maybe new arrivals or new, maybe

39:26

families that maybe might have

39:31

come from China or something

39:31

like that. So and then it's not

39:34

just well, we treat all families

39:34

the same here as well. No,

39:37

actually, you need to understand

39:37

there are some other different

39:39

cultural protocols, that might

39:39

mean that they don't see it that

39:42

way. So there's that big one. I

39:42

think the empathy piece is

39:46

massive. I think. My sense is I

39:46

don't think we teach empathy as

39:50

a skill enough. And I often talk

39:50

about it as the ability to

39:55

listen, observe and question

39:55

with as little with as little

39:59

bias as possible. And there's

39:59

all that work around people like

40:03

Otto Sharma, which looks at like

40:03

all those listing protocols and

40:06

skills that you go through that

40:06

really help in empathy. People

40:10

as much as they say, I get that

40:10

empathy is not sympathy, but

40:14

people still conflate the two.

40:14

Yeah. So I think I think empathy

40:17

is really deeply important. It

40:17

can take you a long way. And,

40:23

and I think, then the final part

40:23

is finding something that we

40:27

want, we both agree, we would

40:27

like a work that we would like a

40:31

shared outcome on. So it's not

40:31

we want to change the world

40:36

together. But what's one thing

40:36

we both agree we want to help

40:38

make better, and if we, if it's

40:38

if it's nice and tight,

40:41

manageable, that changes that

40:41

relationship markedly, we

40:45

suddenly feel both invested in

40:45

each other. And I think when

40:49

looking at culture responsive,

40:49

pedagogies those sorts of, you

40:54

know, again, coming back to

40:54

mindset and skill set, they can

40:58

do a lot to changing the way,

40:58

you know, we see responsibility.

41:04

Reciprocity, so how we exchange

41:04

and actually also reflection,

41:11

which means looking back and

41:11

gosh, I can't believe I used to

41:14

think like that, or I used to

41:14

behave like that. That's, that's

41:17

an important part, which again,

41:17

unfortunately, the speed of

41:20

education, we don't spend a lot

41:20

of time looking back and go, How

41:24

have I changed not? How have my

41:24

grades changed? How has my

41:28

mindset changed?

41:29

Yeah, I think

41:29

we've seen that a lot. Like in

41:32

an Australian context, I've been

41:32

out of Australia, seven years.

41:35

But when I was still teaching in

41:35

Australia, and in working, when

41:39

we started the company, you

41:39

especially probably more so in

41:43

New South Wales, I think it

41:43

really started off where before

41:45

you did anything you'd

41:45

acknowledge the Aboriginal

41:48

ancestors, and, and so on. And

41:48

you know, those a bit, sometimes

41:53

they do with different

41:53

ceremonies, like Welcome to

41:56

Country ceremonies and things

41:56

like that, depending on what

41:59

event you're at. And it seemed

41:59

like, people would pull out

42:02

their little piece of paper

42:02

that's been laminated and gets

42:06

passed from classroom to

42:06

classroom, and they just read it

42:08

verbatim. Put it down, like now

42:08

the real work starts, you know.

42:12

And something that I've noticed

42:12

in the last two or three years

42:15

is that quite often people have

42:15

living that a little bit like

42:19

they're owning it. And they're,

42:19

they're talking about it. That

42:23

yeah, it seems like even those

42:23

little it seemed very tokenistic

42:26

initially. But it seems like

42:26

it's in to a large extent, I

42:31

save a lot more. I agree,

42:31

genuine. Is there a is there

42:36

almost a place for tokenistic?

42:36

Just to get the ball rolling

42:40

when you're talking about

42:40

cultural change? Or?

42:46

Yeah, that's a

42:46

tricky one, I guess. Hmm. I

42:50

think if you're working on any

42:50

process that involves some sort

42:54

of the development of new

42:54

intercultural relationships,

42:57

then those moments become

42:57

they're actually really, really

43:01

important that they're not

43:01

tokenistic. And they can be.

43:06

Actually, do they have the

43:06

opposite effect? If they are

43:09

tokenistic, they can reinforce a

43:09

stereotype. And I think

43:12

something I've noticed is

43:12

increasingly people now being

43:16

much more comfortable with

43:16

actually knowing what country

43:19

are you on. So knowing that

43:19

you're on Wiradjuri country, or

43:24

Gadigal country or, you know,

43:24

Boonwurrung country. So I think

43:30

all those all those, that

43:30

element of knowledge can be very

43:34

empowering. And I think I've

43:34

also seen an increase in a lot

43:36

more work being done on schools,

43:36

even teaching indigenous

43:40

languages. And one of the things

43:40

that, just as you may remind me,

43:46

and I used to use it a lot,

43:46

because I always was keen to

43:48

just change that acknowledgement

43:48

of country. I didn't want it to

43:54

be formulaic. I wanted it to be

43:54

contextual. And I've always

43:58

actually had a lot of respect

43:58

for when I've been to New

44:00

Zealand and seen some of the

44:00

conferences and educational

44:05

events there that the way people

44:05

do those. Maori acknowledgments

44:12

is often really contextual. I've

44:12

always been very involved. In

44:17

Wiradjuri , country called

44:17

Wominjeka, which Wominjeka has

44:22

sort of become translated as

44:22

welcome. And that's often how

44:29

it's used. But in fact, I

44:29

learned from a wandering elder

44:33

that actually Wominjeka is a

44:33

like a compound word. It's a

44:37

made up of two different parts.

44:37

And it actually literally

44:40

translates as come with purpose.

44:40

Right? And I absolutely love

44:45

that translation like the idea

44:45

of I now better understand what

44:49

First Nations people meant when

44:49

they said, Wominjeka, like come

44:53

with purpose. Like if you come

44:53

here with genuine intention, and

44:56

we can trust you and all that

44:56

sort of stuff then then welcome

45:00

you know, and I think sometimes,

45:00

to use that classic phrase that

45:05

lost in translation can

45:05

sometimes be a really powerful

45:08

lesson in learning. And

45:08

sometimes it means undoing what

45:12

we learned.

45:13

Yeah. So how do

45:13

you balance that tension? Again,

45:17

you've got a very European white

45:17

culture in Australia,

45:22

essentially. And then you've

45:22

got, like the Aboriginal

45:27

culture, and then you've got the

45:27

Asian cultures, and you've got

45:30

this melting pot. I mean,

45:30

Australia specifically is a very

45:33

multicultural country. How do

45:33

you how do you balance that

45:38

tension then between? Like, how

45:38

do you Yeah, how do you sort of

45:44

hold all that tension in terms

45:44

of how do you do justice to your

45:47

Asian community and the Asian

45:47

heritage they've got, but then

45:51

also the Aboriginal heritage?

45:51

And they've got and then some of

45:54

that more traditional Australian

45:54

heritage, for instance?

45:58

Yeah, it's an

45:58

interesting one. I think

46:01

there's, I think it's

46:01

understanding the context,

46:03

actually, context is a big

46:03

factor. And I think sometimes in

46:08

in Australia's case, you've got

46:08

to be careful that the context

46:11

don't become tokenistic. So, you

46:11

know, just to take a bit of a

46:16

broad swath to Harmony Day, can

46:16

feel actually like it actually

46:19

does more damage, it reinforces

46:19

more stereotypes, because we

46:22

just start this one day to dress

46:22

up in a cultural wear or have

46:27

some cultural food that becomes

46:27

stereotypical. Rather, she said

46:31

is what's something contextual?

46:31

That means something to our

46:34

community? And I, as I said, I

46:34

think I my sense, I think we're

46:38

doing that better. From a First

46:38

Nations perspective, I think

46:42

we're still learning how to do

46:42

it. Because when it comes to an

46:46

Asian context, I mean, you're

46:46

talking about 40, to 45

46:51

different potential nations. And

46:51

even then, I distinctly

46:55

remember, when I was on one of

46:55

my trips to Indonesia, we were

46:59

talking a little bit about this.

46:59

And one of the educators got a

47:03

bit worked up, and he kind of

47:03

went at me across the table. He

47:06

said, Yeah, but you don't

47:06

understand it. We're not we're

47:08

not just Indonesian. You know,

47:08

he's Timorese on Balinese, you

47:14

know, he's from East Kalimantan.

47:14

You know, he's from Surabaya,

47:18

you know, so people identify by

47:18

by the little region that

47:22

they're from, because they have their own dialect and their own customers and their own

47:24

protocols. And so there's all

47:27

that stuff that sometimes,

47:27

again, we get caught by trying

47:31

to generalize things to make it

47:31

easy, but we end up shutting

47:35

people out. And actually, and I

47:35

think the answer to that, then

47:40

is honesty is actually the best

47:40

solution is actually that I

47:44

know, I'm probably generalizing

47:44

here, I know, I'm leaving people

47:50

out, showing a bit of

47:50

vulnerability and weakness, I

47:53

don't think leaders do that

47:53

enough. To be honest, they would

47:56

rather lie and act like it was

47:56

all meant to be or someone

48:00

else's fault that actually admit

48:00

that they didn't know or they

48:04

maybe didn't say it in the right

48:04

way. And I think we need an AI

48:09

we hear it from people like

48:09

Brene Brown and others, Simon

48:13

Sinek, around vulnerable leaders

48:13

who've got the courage, or

48:18

people like your own Prime

48:18

Minister, Prime Minister, you

48:21

know, people that have the

48:21

courage to be vulnerable, much

48:26

more relatable human, and we can

48:26

forgive some of their some of

48:30

their assumptions. That's and that's okay.

48:33

Yeah, it's definitely something I'm doing a lot of thinking around. Because

48:34

culturally responsive is

48:38

definitely like an area of focus

48:38

for a lot of people, but at the

48:43

same time, how do you stop that

48:43

being a totalistic tokenistic

48:49

activity? And then obviously,

48:49

it's, it's local to where you

48:52

are. So yeah, New Zealand.

48:52

Obviously, there's a fair bit of

48:56

te reo and Maori going through

48:56

and but then you've got some

49:00

schools that as a proportion,

49:00

Indian, but yet in our New

49:06

Zealand context. So becomes

49:06

quite, quite quite a struggle

49:11

for and rightly so for for

49:11

executive leadership teams to

49:15

really met like to figure out

49:15

what does cultural responsive

49:18

pedagogy look in that particular

49:18

context? So it's been actually

49:22

quite helpful for me to hear

49:22

your reflections on that and and

49:24

sort of filter that through in

49:24

some of those things I've been

49:27

thinking about

49:28

Yeah, I think I

49:28

think again, in simple terms, it

49:31

comes back to just admitting

49:31

that you don't know you don't

49:35

understand and saying I actually

49:35

have I actually have a gap in my

49:39

own knowledge and capability

49:39

here. Like we tell kids every

49:42

day about the gaps in their

49:42

knowledge and all the skills

49:45

they've got to have gaps in but

49:45

we've got to swallow our own

49:49

medicine and something that I

49:49

learned very, very well at no

49:53

charge was always we talked

49:53

about that, like, if we can't do

49:56

it to ourselves, then we shouldn't be doing it to teachers, and we shouldn't

49:58

certainly be doing it to kids. It's either.

50:01

Very true, I just

50:01

want to pivot for a quick sec,

50:03

because you've said a couple of

50:03

times when I was at, AF. So

50:07

obviously, you're moving on part

50:07

of that thing I saw, you put up

50:11

and you're speaking about

50:11

vulnerability, put up on

50:14

LinkedIn, I think I saw it a

50:14

post about saying you're feeling

50:17

a bit burnt out and a bit like

50:17

you'd lost your, your vibe or

50:21

your mojo, and you're out to try

50:21

and pick that up. And obviously,

50:26

stepping away from that role

50:26

over the last three months or so

50:29

just interested in that whole

50:29

burnout piece. Not only how deep

50:32

you want to go into this, but

50:32

like, what were the steps you

50:35

took to recognize that you're,

50:35

you're burning out? And then

50:38

what were the steps? You got a

50:38

pathway out of that?

50:41

Wow. Yeah, thanks.

50:41

Thanks, Mike. Look, it was

50:46

tough. Like, I really loved my

50:46

job. And I felt and I will

50:52

continue to love the work that

50:52

that I have does, and I guess it

50:55

was a really interesting time

50:55

where I kept thinking that,

51:04

okay, so I've got to try and

51:04

help solve some of these quite

51:07

complex challenges. And people

51:07

were really stretched, there was

51:10

a lot that people had on. And

51:10

there was a lot of compounding

51:14

pressures that that I think,

51:14

just build up. And, of course, I

51:18

think, you know, in all, in all

51:18

parts of life, that you know, if

51:22

mentally, you're under a huge

51:22

amounts of pressure, then your

51:25

body starts to reflect that too.

51:25

So I end up getting really bad

51:31

pain in my neck and shoulders.

51:31

And a lot of it was just

51:35

crouched over a laptop all day

51:35

long stressing out and not

51:39

really looking after my own

51:39

physical well being as much as

51:43

my mental well being. And so

51:43

that story that I kind of did

51:49

take some time to work out if I

51:49

wanted to tell it or not. But I

51:53

must say that I've actually been

51:53

really, really humbled and

51:57

surprised at the people that it

51:57

has reached and resonated with

52:00

I, you know, I I've don't write

52:00

much on my blog very often. And

52:06

when I do, it's sort of, I just

52:06

want to get some thoughts out.

52:08

And they're not meant to be for

52:08

like, I'm not intending this to

52:11

be some sort of mega sources,

52:11

where I like to do my thinking.

52:14

And so it was really probably

52:14

quite powerful to say that lots

52:18

of people have lost their mojo.

52:18

And increasingly, what I thought

52:22

too, was, I think it's not just

52:22

school leaders and teachers, but

52:25

kids, kids have lost their mojo.

52:25

So losing it, and for me, was

52:31

admitting it that I just lost,

52:31

it was big. And I think the

52:35

thing was, and I like to say

52:35

maybe it's, I was, and maybe

52:39

traditionally have been a little bit of a bloke and kind of, she'll be right, I'll be right,

52:41

or I'm just a bit down, you

52:45

know, but actually asking for

52:45

help, and professional help. And

52:51

that was a big thing for me,

52:51

because I I was almost a little

52:54

bit out of character. So once a

52:54

second meeting, something not

52:57

right, you know, and the

52:57

professional help was wonderful,

53:01

because they didn't try and

53:01

diagnose me or tell me what was

53:05

wrong. They just listened.

53:05

Right? Good empathy skills,

53:08

like, just listened. And about

53:08

the midpoint through that cycle

53:11

of, of work. They then said, you

53:11

know, you're actually suffering

53:16

from burnout. And I'm like,

53:16

yeah, no, I burnout, no, no

53:20

burnout, it's an actual thing.

53:20

You know, it has all these sort

53:24

of different conditions and

53:24

anxieties that come with

53:27

burnout. And that then helped me

53:27

actually, when you can pinpoint

53:31

the problem, you can deal with

53:31

it, you can, and then I was left

53:34

with that point. Okay, do I do I

53:34

work through this and stay? Or

53:38

do I take some time to look

53:38

after myself and leave, and it

53:43

was a hard decision to leave, I

53:43

must say. But the three month

53:48

gap now of having left, I don't

53:48

regret it. I feel I feel better.

53:54

I got myself physically Well,

53:54

again, mentally well, again, I

53:58

got time with my family to

53:58

support them. With that was that

54:02

has worked out really well,

54:02

serendipitously. And I think

54:08

increasingly, it's something

54:08

that you know, my advice to

54:12

those that that maybe go through

54:12

this is you need to have the

54:18

trusted people that you can talk

54:18

to all the services or things

54:21

you can call on to talk to. And

54:21

not and I guess in my story is

54:26

not to see it as being somehow

54:26

weak or a sense of failure. And

54:32

that's a big step. And then

54:32

that'll be a lesson that I carry

54:35

with me for the rest of my life.

54:36

Yeah, yeah, I

54:36

think yeah, I probably don't

54:39

take it from Oh, maybe I do from

54:39

like on my blog, just get on

54:44

with it. Toughen up. I think

54:44

I've just eternally optimistic

54:48

like I'm always I don't know, I

54:48

just I always see the good in

54:52

something of I see the best in

54:52

people i. And it's been an

54:57

interesting journey for me just

54:57

recently to just saying Like not

55:00

everything has to be fantastic

55:00

all the time. And it's okay just

55:03

for it to be crap, you know, so.

55:03

And just acknowledging that

55:07

sometimes can go a long way to

55:07

just helping the reality is it

55:13

is what it is. But Yep,

55:13

absolutely can't get better.

55:17

But, like sit in that for a

55:17

moment and just acknowledge it

55:20

and then find the path out. So

55:22

that's absolutely right, Mike. And I've always been someone I love to help make

55:24

it better and design things to

55:27

be better. And when you run out

55:27

of that creative energy you make

55:30

it better is when you I think

55:30

it's the introspection to look

55:33

back and go, I need to make

55:33

myself better. First of all, I

55:36

tried to make other people or

55:36

other things better.

55:39

Yeah, yeah, that's

55:39

interesting. Did you take

55:41

yourself through a design thinking process?

55:44

There were no hexagons or post it notes involved with that one, I'm

55:46

pleased to say, Yeah, I put that

55:50

aside for a minute.

55:51

And that's good.

55:51

And now you want to talk about

55:54

what's next. Obviously, you've

55:54

found your vibe back in his got

55:58

a bit of a spring in your step,

55:58

and you've got a bit of future

56:00

focus? Yeah, I

56:02

do. I do. Mike, I

56:02

look at you know, again, it's

56:04

been I mean, that's where I

56:04

think networks are a wonderful

56:07

thing. And understanding what

56:07

you want, and for me had that's

56:12

been that three month gap of so

56:12

what do I want to do next. So

56:15

I've, my education career has

56:15

been, has had a lot of variety,

56:21

still standard learning space,

56:21

but always from a slightly

56:23

different perspective. And

56:23

that's what I was looking for.

56:26

And looking for, I'm very much a

56:26

people person, I wanted to work

56:30

with a team of really vibrant

56:30

energetic people, I didn't want

56:34

to just be a consultant or a

56:34

freelance or just just sort of

56:38

pop in pop out. So it was

56:38

finding that right synergy of

56:42

people purpose, and what's the

56:42

real thing that gets them up in

56:45

the morning. And so So yeah, so

56:45

you're probably one of the first

56:49

people to hear the news that

56:49

I've been appointed as the new

56:52

general manager for cooler

56:52

Australia. And Cool Australia is

56:58

an incredible organization, a

56:58

startup from about 13 years ago,

57:04

founded by Jason Kimberly,

57:04

around the premise of trying to

57:08

help our teachers save time on

57:08

how to help their students learn

57:14

about sustainability through

57:14

social, economic and

57:16

environmental lenses. And it has

57:16

blossomed into an organization

57:21

now of about over a dozen staff,

57:21

and reaching almost into every

57:27

school in Australia, I think

57:27

they're just about to hit 2

57:31

million downloads of their

57:31

resources. And I'm really

57:37

humbled and fortunate to take on

57:37

this role in helping to kind of

57:42

shape and support the next phase

57:42

of what Cool Australia is doing.

57:47

And in the truest sense of the

57:47

word. It's built around digital,

57:53

it's about improving access. And

57:53

it's about finding the things

57:58

that are going to ensure a

57:58

better future for educators and

58:02

young Australians and their

58:02

parents in wrestling with some

58:06

of the biggest challenges of our

58:06

times and how do we communicate

58:10

that in a way that allows people

58:10

to learn the context and take

58:13

some action? And yeah, it's, I'm

58:13

super excited. It just feels

58:17

like things clicked. Well,

58:20

yeah, that's awesome. Really happy for you about that. I mean, talk about,

58:22

I don't know, if you see this,

58:26

where I kind of see it on the

58:26

outside and just looking in, it

58:30

was kind of like you're at the

58:30

library, and you're almost at

58:32

the coffee, like the cutting

58:32

face of what was happening in

58:35

libraries, and you went to no

58:35

toss, which was very cutting

58:37

edge in terms of design. And

58:37

then you really jumped into the

58:40

Asia thing. And that was very,

58:40

like, that's on the bleeding

58:45

edge of where education is. And

58:45

then if you look at society,

58:48

economics and an environment,

58:48

well, if those three things that

58:52

were schools are under pressure

58:52

to innovate and to incorporate

58:55

into their curriculums and their

58:55

thinking that be it right, so,

58:59

yeah, I think you found yourself

58:59

right. And there's right spot

59:01

where you need to be in terms of

59:01

that next step of your journey.

59:04

Absolutely. Yeah.

59:04

And I feel as I said, I feel

59:08

very fortunate to have such such

59:08

a role. And, and I can already

59:13

just feel myself buzzing with

59:13

kind of that creative energy

59:17

that I'd been missing around,

59:17

you know, how do we get the best

59:21

impact out of this and, and, and

59:21

working with such amazing

59:27

partners? And I think that's the

59:27

thing you've realized there's so

59:29

many people that want to help

59:29

improve education, and what

59:35

they're looking for a people

59:35

that could know and understand

59:38

how to design that learning. And

59:38

that's always been a real

59:42

passion of mine. And yeah, it

59:42

feels like such a good fit. So

59:45

yet, I'm ready for the next

59:45

phase.

59:49

That's awesome. I

59:49

want to just wrap up with one

59:51

last question for you. I mean,

59:51

we've talked a lot about change

59:54

and you know, the pressures and

59:54

the tensions of that change and

1:00:00

You know, the world changing

1:00:00

around education in a sense, and

1:00:03

quite often we hear politicians

1:00:03

and people talk about how

1:00:06

schools so industrialized and so

1:00:06

stuck in its ways and, and so

1:00:12

on, as someone who's been on the

1:00:12

outskirts of where education is

1:00:16

into intersecting with society

1:00:16

and culture, and, and so on,

1:00:20

like, do you buy into that whole

1:00:20

industrialized model in like

1:00:24

2022? Now, is that still the

1:00:24

case? Or do you think we've

1:00:27

moved on to an old paradigm and

1:00:27

an old narrative so to speak?

1:00:30

Yeah, look, it

1:00:30

was, it was probably cool when

1:00:33

Ken Robinson was talking about

1:00:33

it. Which, you know, God bless,

1:00:38

sir, can you know, it really

1:00:38

helped articulate at least a

1:00:43

little bit of introspection on

1:00:43

how do we change the system. But

1:00:48

I think, when you really look at

1:00:48

education, and and I often refer

1:00:55

to a guy called John Taylor

1:00:55

Gatto, who wrote this seminal

1:01:00

book called weapons of mass

1:01:00

instruction. And it's a great

1:01:03

book. It's quite, quite, quite

1:01:03

old now. But he really nailed

1:01:11

out the difference that I

1:01:11

believe in, which is that all of

1:01:14

us have experienced school. And

1:01:14

we all understand the system of

1:01:18

schooling, but not all of us

1:01:18

have had an education. And I

1:01:22

think when we talk about

1:01:22

schooling as a system, yes, it's

1:01:26

quite indust. That's the system

1:01:26

that's industrial like that

1:01:29

model some of those models of

1:01:29

schooling. But when you talk

1:01:32

about education, I think

1:01:32

everyone looks at education

1:01:36

differently. And that really

1:01:36

interesting cocktail that we

1:01:39

design around a bit of this, a

1:01:39

bit of that, and great teachers

1:01:43

and engage kids and really

1:01:43

interesting concepts. That's

1:01:48

education and the opportunity to

1:01:48

access things and networks and

1:01:52

experiences that otherwise we

1:01:52

didn't think were possible. So I

1:01:56

think education has constantly

1:01:56

adapted within a very rigid

1:02:03

expectation of its model and its

1:02:03

function in society. And it's

1:02:08

the same way maybe like, we

1:02:08

might save other entities, like

1:02:10

banks, you know, we have a

1:02:10

perception of how banks operate

1:02:14

in a society. But actually, if

1:02:14

you work at a bank, they don't

1:02:16

operate like that anymore. We

1:02:16

don't recognize that. Or even in

1:02:21

medicine, you know, we have

1:02:21

industries that have really

1:02:24

shifted the way they work.

1:02:24

Because school deals with such

1:02:29

scale, like you, you work with

1:02:29

millions of kids every day, and

1:02:34

trying to give them this

1:02:34

experience of of learning.

1:02:39

schooling was sort of the model,

1:02:39

it just seemed to work to adapt

1:02:42

to scale. And I think what we've

1:02:42

realized in the last 25 years,

1:02:47

or more, actually, is that that

1:02:47

model doesn't quite isn't quite

1:02:51

fit for purpose. And everyone is

1:02:51

telling us that the kids, the

1:02:55

parents, the teachers, like,

1:02:55

but, but who's actually going to

1:02:58

change that who's going to

1:02:58

change those expectations of

1:03:02

where learning happens, and how

1:03:02

it happens. And when it happens.

1:03:06

And I think the innovators are

1:03:06

those that have more freedom to

1:03:12

make their own choices. And I

1:03:12

know there's a lot being said

1:03:15

about school autonomy. But

1:03:15

school autonomy can feel like,

1:03:19

oh, you know, a dead weight, if

1:03:19

it's suddenly like, or you just

1:03:23

look after yourself, and we

1:03:23

won't help you. I mean, that's

1:03:25

just abandoning education. But I

1:03:25

think we're at a really

1:03:30

interesting time. And I think,

1:03:30

in the next five to 10 years,

1:03:34

we'll look back, you and I will

1:03:34

look back at 2012. And it was

1:03:38

there, it was there in 20s.

1:03:38

While we just weren't quite

1:03:41

ready for that change, and it

1:03:41

needed people to keep telling

1:03:44

the story of that change, to

1:03:44

keep inspiring people. And I

1:03:48

think that's the thing we need,

1:03:48

we need help continually have

1:03:51

people that inspire us to know

1:03:51

that there are better options

1:03:53

for education outside of what we

1:03:53

think schooling is. And that

1:03:57

helps us to start to transition.

1:03:57

And I think probably eventually,

1:04:02

I hope that, you know, certainly

1:04:02

it's not true for my kids, but

1:04:06

their kids school might look a

1:04:06

bit different. And, and I think

1:04:11

that's a natural evolution. And

1:04:11

I feels like we're in this

1:04:16

interesting space where people

1:04:16

are really stuck to bend the

1:04:19

expectations and understanding

1:04:19

of what what it means to learn

1:04:23

it as a as a child.

1:04:25

Yeah. Yeah, very

1:04:25

interesting. It's, um, I think

1:04:29

when you're in it, you don't see

1:04:29

it. Part of that thing, like you

1:04:33

don't necessarily see yourself

1:04:33

aging, or you don't see yourself

1:04:37

changing day to day, but if you

1:04:37

don't bump into someone for six

1:04:40

months, and then you see them all of a sudden, you're like, wow, you've changed, right? So I

1:04:42

think you're right when you're

1:04:46

in it. We're not necessarily

1:04:46

saying it, but I think if we do

1:04:49

look back on, hopefully we'll

1:04:49

see those dots. Kind of like

1:04:54

what we've done today. We've been on a bit of a journey. We're sort of connecting the

1:04:55

dots backwards. You can't ever

1:04:59

connect dots fall Do you can

1:04:59

sort of see where you're gonna

1:05:01

go, but you don't exactly know.

1:05:01

But hindsight is always 2020.

1:05:05

And you can always look back and

1:05:05

say, Oh, that dot join to that

1:05:07

thought which then joined at

1:05:07

that time and yeah, here we are.

1:05:10

That's why

1:05:11

I love I love the

1:05:11

simplest definition of

1:05:13

creativity is that it's only

1:05:13

logical in retrospect. Yeah, so

1:05:17

tricky. At the time, everyone

1:05:17

will tell you, you're crazy. And

1:05:20

that's how you know you're

1:05:20

innovating. You know, but in

1:05:22

respect, I see what you're

1:05:22

trying to do. And so I think

1:05:26

that's a good sign that you've

1:05:26

you've you've tried to make a

1:05:28

difference.

1:05:29

Yeah, yeah. What a

1:05:29

good spot to stop on that. I

1:05:32

think it's really appreciate

1:05:32

your time. I know you're, you're

1:05:35

busy hooking into your new your

1:05:35

new role, and I appreciate you

1:05:39

taking time out. But I have

1:05:39

genuinely been thinking about

1:05:42

you over the last couple of

1:05:42

years, especially with all the

1:05:44

tensions on around China and

1:05:44

culture and, and so on. And I

1:05:50

was someone I've been wanting to

1:05:50

chat to and just timing seems to

1:05:54

be right for now, for some

1:05:54

reason. So

1:05:57

as usual, Mike,

1:05:57

your timing was perfect. You

1:05:59

know, you had any new still got

1:05:59

it. So yeah, just wonderful to

1:06:03

have an opportunity to chat with

1:06:03

you and share a bit of my story.

1:06:06

And yeah, it's been really

1:06:06

wonderful catching up.

1:06:09

Yeah, appreciate

1:06:09

it, and all the best in your new

1:06:12

role. Thanks, Mike. Cheers.

1:06:16

Thanks for listening.

1:06:16

For more episodes and show notes

1:06:19

visit UTB dot FYI. Forward slash

1:06:19

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