0:02

Hi, everybody, and welcome to Coach's Corner.

0:05

I have a guest back. She's been

0:07

on the show before. Last time we

0:09

talked about boundaries, and this time we're

0:11

talking about boundaries again, and

0:13

more specifically, how to make relationships

0:16

healthy and drama free. Nedra

0:18

Tawab is the author of the New York

0:20

Times bestseller Set Boundaries to Find Peace. She

0:23

is a licensed therapist and sought out

0:25

relationship expert and has practiced relationship therapy

0:27

for more than 15 years. She's

0:31

been featured as an expert all over the

0:33

place and has been on many podcasts.

0:35

She also runs a popular Instagram

0:37

account where she shares practices, tools,

0:39

and reflections for mental health and

0:42

hosts weekly Q&As about boundaries and

0:44

relationships. And before we dive

0:46

in, I want to thank my sponsor. You know them.

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now on to my conversation with Nedra.

1:58

Welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for being

2:00

here. Thank you for having me

2:03

back. That's always a good sign that I did

2:05

a great job the first time. Yes,

2:08

you did. And

2:10

not only that, just the topics that you're

2:12

passionate about and the topics that you're an

2:15

expert in are so

2:17

relevant and so important, especially for

2:19

my listeners. I have a lot

2:22

of listeners who are really

2:24

into personal transformation

2:28

and making themselves the

2:30

best they can possibly be.

2:33

But when it comes to

2:35

boundaries, it's where they often,

2:38

often struggle. So I'm really excited

2:40

to have this conversation with you

2:42

today. So

2:45

I'd love to just begin the

2:48

conversation with asking you why, especially

2:50

as a therapist, you

2:52

decided to really hone in

2:54

on boundaries. Why is

2:56

that an area of passion for you? You

2:59

know, I think it's one of

3:01

the hardest things that we do

3:04

as humans is have these difficult

3:06

conversations in our relationships. And when

3:08

we're not talking about these things

3:10

therapeutically, I see people showing up

3:13

with high levels

3:15

of anxiety, depression,

3:17

bipolar disorder, personality

3:19

issues, all of these sorts of things,

3:22

because there is some

3:24

relational problems either presently or

3:26

some severe relationship problems in

3:28

the past. And so we

3:31

know that boundaries create

3:34

this sort of dysfunction or the

3:36

lack of boundaries creates this sort

3:38

of dysfunction in our

3:40

relationships with other people. And it's

3:43

still such a hard thing to

3:45

bring up. And it's

3:48

not always that we're unaware

3:50

of what the boundary is,

3:52

it's that we have a really

3:54

hard time communicating our needs to

3:56

other people. Well,

3:58

I definitely want to unpack. that but I want to

4:01

go back and look at the word dysfunction. So when

4:03

you use the word dysfunction in relationship, I think it's

4:05

important that we look at what that really means because

4:08

I think some people may have dysfunction in a relationship

4:10

and may not even know it because it's just what

4:12

they're used to. So how do

4:14

you define dysfunction? A

4:16

pattern of unhealthy behaviors

4:19

or acts in a relationship

4:21

that is persistent. So

4:23

if something happens one time, it's not dysfunctional,

4:26

right? It's like, oh my gosh, we had

4:28

an argument, we had a challenge. If this

4:30

is the routine with this person all the

4:32

time, it is a

4:34

dysfunction in the relationship. If

4:37

the relationship is not able

4:39

to be repaired with communication

4:42

and repair efforts, it is

4:44

a dysfunctional relationship. When we

4:47

can't go back

4:49

to people and say, okay, this happened

4:51

and how should we resolve this? And

4:53

there's some communal like,

4:55

okay, well I did this, you

4:57

did that. There's dysfunction in the

4:59

relationship. We can have

5:02

dysfunctional family relationships, dysfunctional working

5:04

relationships, dysfunctional friendships, marriages,

5:06

all sorts of things.

5:09

I think we assume that

5:12

dysfunction only includes like

5:14

alcohol and abuse and

5:16

it's many other things. If you

5:18

have a friend who can't

5:21

tolerate you placing a boundary with them

5:23

and each time that you try, they

5:26

cut you off for a few months,

5:28

you have a dysfunctional relationship with this

5:30

person. You can't communicate with them. If

5:33

you have an adult child and

5:35

you refuse to loan them money

5:37

and they start screaming at you

5:39

and telling you what a terrible parent you

5:42

were, you have a dysfunctional relationship

5:44

with that child. So it's not

5:46

just, oh my gosh, this person

5:48

has this big substance abuse issue.

5:50

This is dysfunctional. It is so

5:52

many things in our

5:54

relationships. And here's the thing

5:57

with us as humans, we

5:59

are impacted. by the dysfunctional relationships

6:01

other people have. If

6:03

you're in a partnership with someone

6:06

and your partner has a dysfunctional

6:08

relationship with their parents, you

6:11

are now a part of the dysfunction

6:13

because you have, even if you don't

6:15

experience it with their parents, you hear

6:17

about it. You see your partner's response

6:20

and you see their sadness. So you

6:22

are now roped into the dysfunction. And

6:24

so just having the armor

6:27

and knowledge of boundaries it

6:30

not only protects us, but we can

6:32

now serve as social

6:34

workers. I'm a social worker. We can

6:36

now serve as social workers and maybe

6:40

talk to people in a different

6:42

way. Maybe let them know a little bit

6:44

of what we're noticing. I notice whenever your

6:46

mom visits, after she leaves, you

6:49

seem a bit sad. And

6:52

I wonder if she could come for

6:54

shorter visits. And

6:58

I think that's such an important point to

7:00

note is that when we may not be

7:02

in a dysfunctional relationship but when we're in

7:04

relationship with someone who is in a dysfunctional

7:06

relationship, it does impact us. It really, really

7:09

does. And

7:11

having boundaries is one of

7:13

the ways that we can

7:16

manage and hopefully improve dysfunctional relationships.

7:18

So let me ask a question before

7:20

I ask my next question. Can

7:23

dysfunctional relationships become functional?

7:26

Yes, if both parties

7:28

are committed to working

7:31

on the relationship, I don't know

7:33

if it's possible to heal some

7:36

levels of this dysfunction on your

7:38

own. If there are

7:40

situations where there's something you need

7:42

to accept, we can

7:44

make those relationships healthier. And

7:47

just because a relationship is unhealthy, it

7:49

doesn't mean that we have to leave

7:51

that relationship. When I think of substance

7:54

abuse, there may be a person

7:56

in your life, your best friend, who

7:58

has a... drinking problem,

8:00

right? You may not want to say, you

8:02

know what, this person, they're dysfunctional, I'm out

8:05

of here. But you may want to choose

8:07

how you show up in relationship with them.

8:09

You may want to choose what type of

8:11

outings you go on with this person. You

8:13

may want to choose the way

8:16

in which you talk to them about certain

8:18

issues. There may be some, you know, things

8:20

that you have to do with your boundaries

8:22

with this other person. You can't stop their

8:24

drinking, but it doesn't mean that you don't

8:27

want to be in a relationship with them.

8:29

So is that an improvement? I'd say

8:32

so. Now, does it

8:34

make this person not have addiction

8:36

to alcohol? No, it doesn't. But

8:39

your acceptance of what

8:41

the situation is, makes it feel a

8:43

little bit better for you to be

8:45

in. Your expectations have shifted. So variety

8:47

is, you know, forcing this person to

8:50

be sober is no longer the thing.

8:52

But if you say, oh, could I

8:54

see that she has two drinks? I

8:56

will leave. I will part

8:58

ways because I don't want to

9:00

see her slurring and falling off fire

9:02

stools. So I will suggest that

9:04

we Uber. So she's safe. Right.

9:08

And I will let the other folks in

9:10

our friend group know what I'll be doing.

9:12

And I will step away

9:14

from watching her while

9:16

this is happening. Because again, we

9:20

haven't experienced watching bad stuff.

9:23

You know, some people in our lives,

9:25

they're like watching a scary movie. And

9:28

I don't know about you,

9:30

but the worst scary movies

9:32

are the one with children. Movies

9:35

with children get me every time. Why

9:39

is this child famous? Why is this

9:41

little seven year old one hundred like

9:44

those get me every time to the

9:46

point. Last night

9:48

I was sleeping. My daughter was

9:52

standing over me. I woke

9:55

up like I just I am shooketh from those

9:57

movies. It

10:00

had nothing to do with her being there. She was like,

10:02

I just wanted the hug. I'm like dude, I Thought

10:05

you were a 200 euro little

10:08

person Those

10:12

movies are impacting me long after

10:14

I've watched them So

10:18

watching some of these people it has

10:20

a long-term impact when you see this

10:22

person doing this same thing You know,

10:25

we have a choice of whether we

10:27

want to witness their dysfunction Yeah

10:31

Sometimes I think I'm opting out of I'm

10:33

not getting out of the relationship with you,

10:35

but I will out of this part of

10:38

it I think that's

10:40

such a great distinction because I feel like

10:42

a lot of times we think we don't have choice It's

10:44

like well if I want this relationship with this person

10:48

The friendship example. Well, then I just have to put

10:50

up with like, you know, basically carry

10:52

her home because she's so drunk They

10:54

know no, you can still have

10:56

the relationship just with with boundaries on it as

10:58

well So I'd love to talk

11:00

about the difference. This is something I have

11:03

to Remind myself

11:05

and my clients of frequently

11:07

the difference between boundaries and

11:09

a request Well

11:13

a request is what we Relay

11:16

to another person. Can you do

11:18

this thing for me? Our

11:20

boundaries can be not doing something

11:23

that Let me give you

11:25

an example You could say

11:27

to your brother. Hey, can

11:29

you pick me up from the airport at

11:31

5 o'clock? Your brother could

11:33

come at 5 he could also come at 5 15 5 30 if

11:35

he comes at 5 30 You

11:40

may place a boundary of you know what in the

11:42

future? I'm not gonna ask this person because they don't

11:44

come on time Or maybe

11:47

you start to call them

11:49

sooner and say hey Are you going to be there

11:51

like what things will you do? The boundary is really

11:53

the stuff that you'll do? It's

11:56

not what this other person has to do

11:58

and I think sometimes we

12:00

think the boundary is what we're telling

12:02

this other person to do like in

12:04

the Example of drinking we

12:07

think the boundary is oh, I have to

12:09

tell them not to drink and it's like

12:11

you're gonna tell an alcoholic Not

12:13

to drink Wow. I

12:15

don't know if that person is an alcoholic Is

12:19

it that the essence of having a drinking

12:22

problem, right? Exactly. It's

12:24

like I think they're gonna do it

12:26

and you may need to figure out How

12:29

you'll respond as a result what you

12:32

can you know, maybe do to prepare

12:34

or what you'll you know Like those

12:36

are the things that

12:38

you can figure out you can request.

12:40

Hey, I'm having a gathering at my

12:42

house Please don't drink anything but

12:45

your boundaries would be Telling them

12:47

they need to go Yeah,

12:50

you have to leave, you know, I made a

12:52

request you didn't honor the request and this is

12:54

the boundary is the consequence now So

12:56

I have to ask you to leave

12:58

this space. So Request

13:01

is you know something that we offer

13:03

people to help facilitate what our boundaries

13:05

are yeah, this was a

13:07

big one for me because as a people

13:10

pleaser and as someone who has Definitely

13:13

has some for lack of a better

13:15

word codependent patterning. I

13:17

thought a boundary was no Please

13:20

don't talk to me that way or I won't I won't

13:23

stand it when you talk to me that way, but I

13:26

wouldn't leave Wouldn't happen. I

13:28

just I just thought a very

13:30

firm request maybe with like an

13:32

ultimatum was the boundary

13:35

and I really had to look at no

13:37

a boundary is something I can control and

13:41

A request is simply a

13:43

request and I think that the

13:45

codependent people pleaser like afraid of

13:47

losing love part

13:49

of me was Like

13:53

boundaries felt so scary And it

13:56

felt safer to make requests, but then

13:58

I get resentful because my relationship would

14:00

be dysfunctional. So

14:03

thank you for that reminder. Yeah,

14:05

I remember a comedian

14:08

was talking

14:10

about a story where

14:14

there was a person dating someone

14:17

in a wheelchair and they

14:19

said the person was abusive

14:22

and the comedian said, you know, how do

14:24

they abuse you? They tell me to bend

14:26

down and they slapped me. And it was like,

14:28

what? You

14:32

allow that person to do that? They

14:35

can't even stand up and do

14:37

it. You are leaning into it.

14:39

And I think sometimes when we

14:43

are in those situations with people,

14:47

disability aside, I think

14:49

we feel like they own the

14:52

space. If they

14:54

yell at me, I have to sit

14:57

there and tolerate it until they say

14:59

stop. I'll tell you of a recent

15:01

situation. I have a particularly emotionally unstable

15:03

person in my life who

15:05

when they get upset, they

15:07

will send a series of

15:10

me text messages and

15:12

I'll take into ignoring them. And,

15:16

you know, when I'm ready to talk about

15:18

it with the person, I highlight the information

15:20

and I say, you know, this

15:23

was a part of my process and this

15:25

is why, you know, when I say

15:27

you can't talk to me that way, I mean,

15:29

I won't talk to you while you're doing it.

15:32

You can't say, call me after

15:34

you've sent me messages. So I'm calling

15:36

you to be fussed at. Right.

15:41

That doesn't

15:43

register with me. Like,

15:45

someone will call you for your yell.

15:48

You've already done it on my voicemail.

15:50

You've already sent all text messages. Now

15:53

I have to call and get it. No, but

15:55

what I can do is block you. Right.

15:58

What I can do. is call

16:00

you when I'm prepared to talk to you. But

16:03

what I will not do is allow

16:05

you to yell at me even though you really

16:07

want to. Yep, yep.

16:11

And that takes, okay so let me ask you this.

16:14

We've established it's setting boundaries is hard

16:16

in a relationship. So

16:19

what type of self-work

16:23

does it require to start

16:25

becoming better at a knowing the

16:27

boundary needs to be set and

16:30

then be setting it and holding it. Well

16:34

you know our feelings are

16:37

revealing to us the boundaries that

16:40

we need. Whenever

16:42

I start to feel resentful,

16:44

frustrated, anxious, sad,

16:48

upset, when I start

16:50

to ruminate on certain things that

16:52

have happened, I

16:54

then pause and say hmm what

16:58

is the thing I'm needing from

17:00

some situation that I'm in. You

17:04

know a recent one was laundry.

17:07

Same simple, big problem,

17:09

right? Laundry.

17:12

I felt like I had become a

17:15

wash and fold person. Just

17:18

so much laundry and I said you know

17:20

what I'm getting really frustrated to the point

17:22

where I found myself avoiding it and I

17:24

said you know what my children

17:26

are old enough to help with their laundry. Yeah

17:31

and so now I just wash and I don't

17:33

fold, right? So I wash and then

17:35

I dump in clean clothes on their floor and

17:37

I say hey you got an hour to fold

17:40

your clothes makes me feel so much better about

17:42

laundry. But that resentment was

17:44

an indication that I

17:47

don't, there's something about doing this that

17:49

is not sitting well with me. What

17:52

other options do I have for

17:54

this task? I could continue

17:56

to do it and be very angry and

17:58

now I'm like did you you really wear

18:00

this many pairs of pants? You know, I'm

18:02

texting my friends like, where

18:08

can you find disposable clothes? You know, I love that.

18:14

You know, yeah, there

18:16

are options. There are

18:19

options, whether it's having

18:21

people help me with it, doing

18:23

it less often, you know, fussing

18:25

at people, hiring, you

18:28

know, one of these companies that offer

18:30

like Washington Folds services. Like, there are

18:32

so many options. But if I just

18:35

sit with this as, oh,

18:37

this is the only thing I have to

18:39

do forever, that it

18:41

just feels punitive. And

18:43

that that feeling starts to build

18:46

resentment towards children who just want

18:48

to wear clothes. Yeah, clean

18:51

clothes. Right.

18:54

So you would show shirt on that I had to

18:56

fold. Oh,

19:01

my gosh, my daughter is only two. So there's a

19:03

lot of laundry, but she's going to learn how to

19:05

do it. Pretty. Yeah. I

19:08

say six or seven. And oh, yeah,

19:10

my seven year old, she's like, it

19:12

takes me so long. I'm like, it's

19:14

been 30 minutes, dude. You were watching.

19:16

You were watching your tablet like this.

19:19

Hey, it happened. I'm not telling you to

19:22

fold towels. So I do I

19:24

literally just give them their clothes, anything that

19:26

goes on a hanger. I put it on

19:28

the hanger. You need towels.

19:30

I still fold it up. But your

19:32

clothes, your pants, your socks, your undergarments,

19:35

you have it. You have

19:37

it. Well, because you don't want to

19:39

burn about mama. So

19:42

true, man, if I could teach Athena how to

19:44

fold a fitted sheet, that would be amazing because

19:46

I could teach it myself. If

19:48

you know what I do, here's my cheat. Now,

19:51

this is my laundry cheat. I take

19:53

one pillowcase and I

19:55

basically throw everything in there that yeah,

19:58

I don't even fold it. I'm over the phone. of

20:00

it. And once I turn that little

20:02

flap over, it looks like something magical

20:04

is happening in there. Like things are

20:06

folded. I'm like, nothing is in there

20:08

folded. Yeah. And then you just put it

20:10

in the linen closet and you know, they're just going

20:12

to go on your bed anyway. So yeah, I love

20:14

that. I love that. I love that. So

20:18

laundry hacks are

20:20

a great tip and

20:23

related, but it's such a metaphor

20:25

for, you know, the

20:27

things, the bigger things, right? Cause

20:29

we're talking about laundry, but this

20:31

can really lead to the demise

20:33

of relationships and actually create dysfunction

20:36

in a relationship that was functional

20:38

perhaps. But

20:40

when we build that resentment, because we're not holding boundaries

20:42

and we're not communicating our needs, because I look at

20:44

boundaries in a lot of ways. And one

20:47

of the things that boundaries enable us to

20:49

do is get needs met and

20:51

be able to communicate our needs in a very

20:53

clear way. And if we're

20:55

not doing that, then we're building resentment.

20:57

And I see this with a

20:59

lot of people that have more of

21:01

those people pleasing type of tendencies is

21:05

just stacking away the resentment

21:08

chips. And then like one

21:10

day, you know, they're,

21:13

they just want to divorce or

21:15

the friendship is over or they

21:17

pull out of a business or whatever it is because

21:20

the, the resentment has just,

21:22

all those chips have become

21:24

so heavy because of

21:27

a lack of really establishing boundaries in

21:29

the relationship. So thank you for highlighting

21:31

how important boundaries are to not building resentment.

21:35

I want to talk about forgiveness and

21:37

in your book you talk about toxic

21:40

forgiveness. Can you speak to that and

21:42

what some of the myths around forgiveness

21:44

are? Yes.

21:47

Toxic forgiveness is

21:49

when we pretend to

21:51

forgive and forget, and

21:53

it is for us to stay in a

21:55

relationship that we do want to be in.

21:58

And we hold on. to the

22:00

thing that is bothering us, we haven't

22:02

repaired, we may not talk about it,

22:05

and in passive-aggressive ways,

22:07

or when we feel like

22:09

it's the right time, there

22:11

just becomes this, you know,

22:13

this big explosion. It

22:15

all comes up. It's like, and

22:18

you never, it's like, whoa, you've been

22:20

holding on to that for eight years

22:22

ago. I didn't know you were still

22:25

upset about that thing. Because sometimes we

22:27

don't forgive people for the things that they do

22:29

to us. We don't. And

22:33

that's really hard to accept because we

22:35

live in a culture that says you

22:37

have to forgive people. You forgive people

22:39

for your mental peace. You forgive people,

22:41

you know, all these quotes about why

22:44

you need to forgive people. And

22:47

we really try to do it. And

22:49

it doesn't always work. And that's

22:51

okay. There are some

22:54

things that you will forever be

22:56

bothered by. It doesn't

22:58

mean that you can't be in a relationship with

23:00

the person. But it doesn't mean you have to

23:02

hide it. It doesn't have to, you

23:05

don't need to pretend it doesn't

23:07

exist. It could be

23:09

a thing. And you can still move

23:12

forward in the relationship with that person.

23:14

You can forgive and never be in relationship

23:16

with a person again. You could say, you know what,

23:18

I am, I

23:20

want to release this energy that you have

23:22

over me. I want to

23:24

pardon you from, you know, whatever

23:27

you think that you may have

23:29

caused me. I forgive you. And

23:31

I do not want to talk to you tomorrow. So

23:36

that's another thing, because sometimes we feel like,

23:38

you know, if you forgive a person, you

23:40

have to be in relationship with them. And

23:42

that's just not true. I can

23:47

forgive you and choose not to

23:49

be in relationship with you. I

23:52

can forgive you and still

23:54

have some feelings of anger. So

23:58

there is this, you know, we have all of

24:00

these ideas around, you know, you must forgive

24:02

or if you forgive, it needs to look

24:04

like this. And what

24:07

I have found is many people

24:09

struggling with things

24:11

they actually have not forgiven. They

24:14

still have this stuff and they have

24:16

to be in relationship with someone. I

24:18

find that very often with, you

24:22

know, children and their parents when they become

24:24

adults, you know, some of this stuff, they

24:26

just, they don't forget it. I

24:29

mean, I've had clients who are 80 years

24:31

old and they're talking about stuff that their

24:33

parents did, their parents are deceased and they're

24:35

talking about, you know, Oh my,

24:38

you know, my dad would beat us or

24:40

whatever the thing is. And it's like, okay.

24:42

And you know, they had a relationship with

24:44

their dad until he died. So

24:46

it's not like they ended these relationships, but

24:48

they couldn't be close relationships because they're living

24:51

with this trauma that they have in a

24:53

relationship. And you know, the family is like,

24:55

well, that's, you know, that was in the

24:57

past. Let's move on. And it's like, you

24:59

know, there are just some things that I

25:01

can't forget. Right.

25:05

Well, maybe this is a good time to talk about

25:07

being a cycle breaker is another

25:09

thing you talk about in the book. How

25:11

would we become cycle breakers? And what's amazing

25:14

about that? And what's also challenging about that?

25:17

Yeah. A cycle breaker is

25:19

someone who steps outside of

25:23

what has happened historically in their

25:25

family. It could be a first

25:27

generation graduate. It could be a

25:29

person who bucks the system

25:31

and they're not codependent. Like everyone

25:33

else. It could be someone who,

25:36

you know, Mary's outside their religion.

25:38

It could be someone who breaks

25:40

away from their religion. There are

25:42

all sorts of ways that we

25:45

break cycles in relationships. And when

25:47

that happens, it can be

25:49

challenging for us to go to the family

25:52

system that really upholds, you know, certain

25:54

values and say, Hey, I need you

25:56

to support me with this new thing.

26:00

sometimes they don't know how. I

26:02

was a first generation graduate, you know,

26:05

my mother and father

26:07

and nobody knew how to help me study. They

26:10

didn't know how to fill out a FAFSA. They didn't

26:12

know, you know, so it's that

26:15

support was found in, you know, a

26:17

student resource center, you

26:19

know, academic counselor or, you

26:21

know, my counselor in high school, my

26:23

peers. That's where I got support. It

26:25

wasn't in my home for, you know,

26:27

people who didn't know to teach me.

26:31

So often when you're a cycle

26:34

breaker, you know, you have

26:36

to look outside of that system because

26:38

what you're trying to do is very

26:40

new and different. You're a trailblazer. And

26:42

so hopefully other people will get some

26:45

knowledge in your family from you, but

26:47

you are the first person. And

26:49

looking to these people to say, you

26:52

all don't notice this enmeshment? It's

26:55

like, no, they're enmeshed. They're

26:59

in the enmeshment. So they're, no, they don't

27:01

notice it. They are living in a whole

27:05

enmeshment pool. And you

27:08

are the person who's saying, oh, have

27:10

different ideas. I have different political views

27:12

and you have to go and find

27:15

your people elsewhere. Yeah.

27:19

Yep. That's a full family piece. You know, there's

27:21

a family we are born into and then

27:24

there's the people we find that are really aligned. I

27:27

want to workshop a couple of things with you.

27:29

Yeah. I think would

27:32

be super helpful for our listeners. So

27:34

just give some hypothetical examples that

27:37

I know are common things that

27:39

my listeners struggle with. So the

27:41

first is setting boundaries with parents.

27:44

And that can look like a parent who

27:47

expects you to answer

27:49

the phone every time they call, a

27:52

parent whose opinions are a

27:54

little too strong and are always

27:56

giving their opinions, but basically having

27:58

a an adult

28:00

child and having a parent

28:03

that definitely triggers

28:05

you because you don't

28:08

feel like there's healthy boundaries in place. How

28:10

can we first, one, start to identify

28:13

what is a healthy parent-child

28:15

relationship, especially as adults, and

28:18

two, put healthy boundaries in place so

28:20

that we can have a more functional

28:22

relationship with our parents when we're adults? You

28:26

know, I think that is

28:29

ongoing. You know, our parents have

28:31

an idea of what

28:34

their relationships will, what the

28:36

relationship will look like when

28:38

we become adults, and it

28:40

sometimes doesn't mimic the

28:42

thing that we want in the

28:45

relationship. And so there is

28:47

this period of sort

28:50

of reimagining

28:54

the order of operations,

28:56

right? It's this reimagining

28:58

of what does contact look

29:00

like. I remember, you know,

29:02

speaking with a woman who,

29:06

you know, for years she was on her family cell

29:08

phone plan, and even when she broke

29:10

away from it in her 30s, you

29:13

know, their expectation was like, hey,

29:16

we pay your phone bill, you have to

29:18

talk to us. That's just so like, if

29:20

we call, we are the owner of this

29:23

phone. So when she broke away, you know,

29:25

the expectation sort of continued because we have

29:28

this pattern and she's like, hey, you know, when

29:30

I get off work, listen

29:32

to some music. I don't want to chat with you

29:35

on my way home or I want to call a

29:37

friend. And, you know, her

29:39

parents found that pretty offensive. And

29:42

there was this period of, you

29:45

know, like this cord where, you

29:47

know, it was really uncomfortable. And

29:49

then they came to, you know, maybe a little

29:51

happier space where it's like, okay, so we could

29:54

talk twice a week. When parents

29:56

have children who go off to college,

29:58

you know, my gosh,

30:00

my kids are going to call me every day and then you

30:02

get a kid who calls you on Sundays.

30:06

So some of it is parents

30:11

being emotionally immature enough

30:13

and understanding life cycles

30:16

and life dynamics enough

30:18

to say it is

30:21

okay if you want, you

30:23

know, things to look a certain way

30:25

in our relationship. I can respect that.

30:30

My daughter recently had a, my oldest daughter

30:32

had a field trip and she's

30:34

still in elementary, but she had a field trip and she

30:36

said, do you want to sit next to me on the

30:38

bus? And I said,

30:40

yes. And then later that

30:43

day, three

30:45

hours later, she came

30:47

to me and she said, I have something really

30:49

hard to tell you. And I said, what was

30:51

it? And she said, don't

30:54

be mad. I said, I probably won't be

30:56

if you're saying that. And she

30:58

said, I don't want to sit next to you on a bus.

31:00

And I'm like, okay. She was like, are

31:02

you upset that I don't get over it?

31:04

I can manage my feelings. I'm sure there's an

31:06

audio book I can listen to while not

31:08

being tapped by you. So, you

31:10

know, she chose to sit next to a

31:13

friend behind me. So she was still tapping

31:15

me and hugging me, mom, I love you.

31:17

And all of these things. I'm like, basically

31:19

we sit together, but okay. I

31:21

can allow you to place that

31:24

boundary. As she gets older,

31:26

it will be, you know, more

31:28

exclusion of me, you know, to

31:30

be like, I want to go to the mall with my friends.

31:33

I want to, you know, I

31:36

will allow that I don't want

31:38

her to feel guilty for enjoying

31:40

her life without me always being

31:42

there. And

31:45

I think sometimes with parents, they

31:48

feel like closeness is

31:50

contact and not death.

31:54

We can have a really deep relationship. And

31:56

I don't talk to you every day. I

31:59

say some of the people that I talk to a

32:01

few times a month are my closest

32:04

relationships. Yeah. Yeah.

32:07

Yeah. Yeah. I don't

32:10

want to talk to the people outside of my

32:12

children and my husband. I don't want to talk

32:14

to the people I love every day. Yeah.

32:17

I'm like, trust that I love

32:19

you, because then you are thought of. Right.

32:23

But if our closeness is

32:25

only contact daily, that's not a

32:27

measure of anything. Have those

32:29

relationships where I talk to this friend every

32:31

day. We're talking about anything. Right.

32:34

That's right. We're talking about other people.

32:37

We are in other folks business.

32:39

We are gossiping. We're doing a

32:41

bunch of stuff that has no

32:43

death. Mm hmm. Mm

32:46

hmm. I'm talking about my neighbor. I mean,

32:48

all sorts of stuff is not deep. Right.

32:52

Right. So deep does not mean, you

32:54

know, daily deep could mean something different.

32:56

We deep is daily. But

32:59

I think the content in our

33:01

conversation is more important than

33:03

the amount of times

33:05

per day or per week or hour

33:08

we talk to people. Right.

33:11

And, you know, if we're if a

33:13

parent or whoever it is needs

33:15

that connection in

33:18

order to feel loved or whatever,

33:20

you know, that doesn't that

33:23

that can be dysfunctional. Right. If

33:26

someone is relying on us, like if a parent

33:28

is relying on us to feel OK, for

33:31

whatever reason that they need to talk to

33:33

us every day. Otherwise we're not a good

33:35

kid or whatever that from

33:37

what you described is not

33:39

healthy in the relationship. And

33:42

I think that a lot of people have

33:44

relationships out of obligation and out of, well,

33:46

you know, this is something this person needs.

33:49

So I'll do it anyway. But to

33:51

me, that's not love. That's

33:53

not healthy. That's straight

33:56

up obligation. So before I

33:58

get to our next example. Could

34:00

you talk a little bit about obligatory relationships,

34:02

like how we know we're in one and

34:04

how we can start? I mean, you gave us

34:07

some tips already, but I really want to speak on

34:09

that, like, well, it's my mom and

34:11

she's alone and she doesn't have anyone. And so I need

34:13

to talk to her every day, even though I don't want

34:15

to. Like, could you speak to that obligation and how we

34:17

deal with that? I

34:19

find that obligation feels forced. It

34:23

feels like something we have to do versus

34:25

something we want to do. If

34:28

I don't do this then, right,

34:31

when we want to do something, it's not that

34:33

hard to call a person. We're excited about it.

34:35

Oh, I can't wait to call someone. So I

34:37

can't wait to see someone. So when we

34:39

don't want to, it's, uh,

34:43

I can't believe they're calling me. Right.

34:46

And so we notice, you

34:49

know, those causes that we

34:51

have in our relationships with dealing with

34:53

certain people. One

34:57

of the things I think is really helpful

34:59

that I suggest to my clients sometimes is

35:03

just journal for a few minutes after

35:05

you talk to certain people, just pick

35:07

five, just journal about

35:10

how they made you feel the

35:12

content of your conversation, whether or

35:14

not you felt hurt. Um,

35:18

if anything meaningful was discussed, just

35:20

kind of sit with those things.

35:23

Right. And a lot of

35:25

folks find like, I

35:27

don't like talking to my mama because

35:31

there's nothing being discussed. They

35:33

didn't actually ask about you. They're

35:35

sharing a lot about them. They're

35:37

telling you a lot about problems

35:39

or they're asking you for solutions,

35:41

you know, and we

35:44

may not notice how

35:48

the people that we talk to impact the rest

35:50

of our day. There are some people, I have

35:54

certain days of the week where I'm busier and

35:56

on those really busy days, I'm like, you know, there

35:58

are certain people. They're on

36:01

the no call list. Like I just cannot

36:03

talk to them. I do not want to

36:05

text with them because I'm busy. I'm listening

36:07

to a lot of folks problems and life

36:09

situations. I cannot talk to this

36:11

person and hear their stuff. I am off the

36:13

clock. There

36:17

are certain people who, you

36:20

know, I remember, you know, a while

36:23

ago I was in a therapy training

36:25

about burnout and they mentioned something about

36:27

not putting your

36:29

most joyless client at the end of

36:31

your day. I just like,

36:34

you know, we all have those people and it's

36:36

like, oh no. Charlene,

36:39

I'm not seeing her at three o'clock.

36:41

That's the end of my day. She

36:43

would not ruin my evening.

36:45

You know, that might be a lunchtime

36:47

person. Then after you see her at

36:50

lunchtime, you have these other four people

36:52

and you're like, oh, I love to

36:54

talk to so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so.

36:57

So that way you're not like drained

36:59

for the rest of the day because

37:01

you've ended your day with this really

37:03

chaotic, you know, situation. And sometimes we

37:06

don't think about that. We're not like,

37:08

oh my gosh, this is probably not

37:10

a good person to talk to as

37:13

soon as my dog died. You

37:15

know, this is probably not a good

37:18

person to talk to when

37:20

I'm worried about the test results from my

37:22

last Pap sneer. This

37:24

is, you know, like being aware of

37:27

the people in your life and where

37:30

they should be placed is energetic

37:33

magic. Mm,

37:36

energetic magic. I love that. That's

37:39

so true. You know, some people aren't placing their life

37:42

in the right place. And we have to we have

37:44

to do that energetic magic. And I'd love

37:46

you to speak to the part of us

37:49

that's so worried about hurting people's feelings when

37:51

we do that, when we put

37:53

people in the place they need to be, or when we

37:56

set those boundaries and somebody might Get hurt feelings. How

37:58

Do we deal with that inside ourselves? Well

38:01

you know, I think a

38:03

lot of time there are

38:05

relationships where people. Think

38:08

they. Have a higher. Regard.

38:11

In our lives and we actually have

38:13

for them. And that is

38:15

typically a birth family, right? So you

38:17

know if your parents, your sister, your

38:19

brother, you know they're going to Filipe.

38:22

Oh my gosh, I have this way.

38:24

So I'll give you an example. You

38:26

know, many times when folks get married,

38:28

there's an assumption that family figures will

38:30

have certain roles in the wedding. get.

38:33

I've seen people argue. You're not going

38:35

to put your sister, your wedding, get

38:37

going to have your brother in your

38:39

when you're not gonna have your first

38:41

cousin in your What it is really

38:44

where people. Are like know this is

38:46

the order of things in it is

38:48

time for the bride and groom to

38:50

say wow. I don't look at

38:52

this relationship in the way that this

38:55

person might. right?

38:57

And so it might require. A

38:59

tough. Conversation. And

39:02

in there are lots of times we'll people just do

39:04

it out. Application. Where. They say you know

39:06

where I'm gonna let my siblings be a my

39:08

relationship because I don't want to have this big

39:10

fight in the family or I'm on him by

39:13

at someone sell because. I don't

39:15

want you know this big refund the

39:17

family Another time we may see that

39:19

is it a baby. Showers at funerals

39:21

You look at the obituary you came

39:23

to see. Who. Has the least

39:25

about a pitcher's. Or excuse name as

39:27

it. May

39:30

be I just look at their land raider not

39:32

pitches the hill. Has. A.

39:36

Ah, Or it you know who

39:38

actually wrote something he and obituary or

39:40

who has the you know who was

39:43

left out and you know these sorts

39:45

of things. A and. You

39:47

know, it does sort of let people

39:50

now, but even before those really big

39:52

things happen, It.

39:54

Can be really hard to.

39:58

Exclude people. Be. that's

40:00

really what we might feel like we're

40:02

doing, but we have to be

40:06

aware of the energy in the room. If

40:09

I invite this person to this thing,

40:11

how will I feel? Not

40:14

if they're excluded, how will they feel?

40:16

How will I feel

40:18

having them here? Yeah,

40:21

I love that question because again, we can build resentment

40:24

for doing things not to hurt other people's feelings.

40:27

We're building resentment. We're not having an

40:29

authentic relationship. I always remind myself and

40:31

clients that when you communicate with love

40:33

and truth, then

40:36

your side of the street is clean.

40:40

Often the truth doesn't make

40:42

people feel good because they have

40:44

to look at their side of the street

40:46

and that's not our responsibility. We can't be

40:49

responsible for other people's feelings so

40:51

much so that we are creating dysfunction

40:53

in the relationship because we're not honoring

40:55

our boundaries. Thank you for

40:57

that. As we wrap up, the last

41:00

example I'd love you to speak to and I

41:02

know I'm getting very broad things which could be hard

41:04

to speak to, but maybe if you could just

41:06

make some general comments. In relationships,

41:08

especially romantic relationships, what

41:11

I see couples struggle so much with is kind

41:15

of collapsing wanting someone to

41:17

change with acceptance and setting

41:19

boundaries. Can you talk

41:21

about what actually is a boundary in

41:23

a relationship versus what is

41:25

an expectation for the person to

41:28

change versus just accepting them for who they are?

41:32

Well, it makes sense in

41:34

our relationships to make

41:37

requests or state our needs and ask

41:39

people to do certain things

41:41

that would make us comfortable. If you

41:44

share your bedroom with someone and you say,

41:46

hey, I'm not sleeping. Well, I need you

41:48

to turn the TV off at

41:51

about 10 o'clock so I could go to bed.

41:53

That might be a reasonable

41:56

request. It might not be

41:58

a big deal in your relationship. what happens

42:00

when that person refused to turn it off at

42:02

10 o'clock? The

42:04

acceptance of that might be, one,

42:07

we can't have a TV in a room, two,

42:10

we need to share different rooms, or you know

42:12

what, I will put on a mask and earplugs.

42:16

I think you know, like, you've put

42:18

it out there, you put the need out there, what

42:20

will you do if they don't honor it? And

42:23

sometimes, there are some needs that we have

42:25

that we have to repeat. I

42:28

think until, you know, a parent has a child

42:30

that is 18 years old, you will be telling them,

42:32

pick your coat up, pick your shoes up, get

42:34

your stuff up, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's

42:37

just gonna be a repeated need. There

42:39

are some kids who will

42:42

just tidy up, but most kids won't.

42:45

You will have to repeat yourself. So

42:48

there are some things for our own sanity

42:50

that we may need to repeat, and we're

42:52

really not trying to change the person, we're

42:54

trying to have them meet our needs. So

42:57

we need to be clear about, am

43:00

I trying to change this person, or am I

43:02

trying to get them to meet my needs? If

43:04

I ask them to, you know, show up on

43:07

time and I give them a little reminder call,

43:09

am I trying to make them a one-time person,

43:11

or am I saying, hey, this is really important,

43:13

get your butt up? So being

43:15

clear on, am I

43:17

trying to change people, or am I trying

43:19

to get them to meet my needs by

43:21

facilitating it in this particular way? In

43:24

most cases, you know what I think, I

43:28

don't know if I care how you treat

43:30

other people sometimes as much as I care

43:32

about how you treat me, right? Because

43:35

they get to set their own boundaries.

43:37

So for example, if they have no

43:40

requirement that are similar to the ones

43:42

that I'm saying, you don't even have

43:44

to do it with this other person. Right,

43:46

these are my boundaries, so I'm not trying

43:49

to change you, but I do want you to

43:51

do these things for me. Now

43:53

you can take yourself over to your

43:55

friendships and just be regular OU, but

43:59

I'm gonna tell you. some of those things aren't going to

44:01

work for me and vice versa. So

44:04

just just recognizing, am I trying to change

44:07

a person? And I think we get into

44:09

this change stuff when we try to get

44:11

people to think like us, when

44:14

we try to, you know, get them

44:16

to adopt our philosophies and these sort

44:18

of things like, I just don't understand

44:20

why they don't know how to wash

44:22

and blah, blah, blah. Listen,

44:25

I really don't care if you know how to wash,

44:27

wash everything going cold and here are the instructions. You

44:29

know, I'm not trying to make you a better washer.

44:32

I just need you to put this in the

44:34

washing machine. You know, like, my goal

44:36

is not to change

44:38

you, but to get laundry

44:40

done. Yeah. I'm just

44:43

laughing because I'm thinking about my husband and

44:45

I and like, uh, dishes, like my husband

44:48

thinks that the dishes are done as long

44:51

as they're washed, but he will just stack all

44:53

the dishes like on the counter

44:56

and then he will stack the wet

44:58

dishes on top of the dry dishes.

45:00

And not put them away. And it

45:02

drives me to bonkers. The dishes are

45:04

done according to him. And I

45:06

think according to him,

45:08

and we all have our different way of

45:10

doing things. Right. And so I've

45:13

had to, my request has been, Hey, it's

45:15

like the dishes are shouting at me every time I

45:18

walk by. That's what it feels like. Can you

45:20

just put things in a dishwasher and

45:22

he loads the dishwasher, like literally he's throwing the dishes

45:24

in from the other side of the room. That's what

45:26

it looks like to me. And I

45:29

have to decide and decide myself, okay, he's honored

45:31

the request. He's put them in the dishwasher. Am

45:33

I either going to just rearrange the dishwasher or

45:36

do I just let it go? Because

45:38

the dishes are done. And this is like

45:40

a mini example, but such can we can apply it

45:42

to the macro of, you know, people

45:45

can, can quote

45:47

unquote change to the degree that they can, but

45:49

at some level we got to

45:52

accept them for who we are, they are

45:54

and work with it or change the relationship.

45:56

But it can be maddening to constantly want

45:58

someone to change in a relationship. It can be

46:01

just exhausting. Thank you so much.

46:03

This has been so informative and so helpful

46:05

on so many levels. You have such a

46:07

huge body of work, but is there anything

46:09

that I miss that you feel is important

46:11

to say before we wrap up? Yes.

46:15

Here's what I think people need

46:17

to remember. Boundaries

46:20

are a practice and

46:22

it's something that you will always do.

46:26

The other day I was looking at some

46:29

pages from Set Boundaries, Fine Peace, and I

46:31

said, you know what? I

46:33

need to reread this book. Every

46:39

year and a half, I look at this

46:41

book differently. I'm like, did I say this?

46:43

I should have been writing this to my

46:45

future self because this is what I need

46:47

to hear today. You don't

46:49

even think I

46:51

realized that some of the

46:54

situations that I was using to describe

46:56

others would later apply to me. Right.

47:01

It's like, oh, look at that. So

47:04

true. Oh my God.

47:08

It is a practice. Those boundaries that I

47:10

needed three years ago when I wrote Set

47:12

Boundaries, Fine Peace, they are still true, but

47:14

now I need some other things. It's

47:18

like on and on and on. Just

47:24

as soon as you feel like, oh, I've

47:26

got this master, here's this new life thing.

47:30

It's like parenting too, just when I think I've got it.

47:33

She changes or something happens. So

47:36

thank you for reminding us that it

47:38

is a process. It is a

47:40

process with everything. Can you

47:43

tell people where they can connect with you, where they

47:45

can find your awesome Instagram account and where they can

47:47

get the book? Yes.

47:50

You can connect with me

47:52

on Instagram at nadratawab on

47:54

3its, at nadratawab on Facebook

47:56

at nadratawab, all social platforms

47:59

at nadratawab. I

48:01

have a website www.naturtowob.com.

48:04

On my website, I have some pretty cool

48:07

quizzes, a boundaries quiz, a

48:09

relationship quiz, lots of free

48:11

resources, and you can find

48:13

out about all of my

48:15

books, not just set boundaries,

48:17

find peace, but also drama

48:19

free and other offerings that

48:22

I have. Love that.

48:24

Well, thank you so much for your

48:26

work and really being an advocate for

48:28

people having more functional relationships and setting

48:31

boundaries. I appreciate you. You're

48:34

welcome.