0:02

This is the Head Gun podcast. While.

0:06

Enjoying craig believe the joy of

0:08

discovery is crucial to enjoying any

0:10

well told tail. They will not

0:12

shy away from spoiling specific story

0:14

beats when necessary. Plus. These

0:16

are books you should have read by now. Everybody.

0:40

Was going to overdo it. The Podcast about

0:42

the books you've been meaning to read: A

0:44

My name is Craig, My name is Andrew.

0:48

I. Appreciate the. Several

0:50

loopy right now so I appreciate that you we did

0:52

like the clap though he do to sync up our

0:55

audio track and then he just went right into out

0:57

why way it the you to give me a chance

0:59

to like fall off. For

1:02

the hell off the fence again into now

1:04

being rate of hot yeah I gotta keep

1:06

young here. Were. Locked in. I'm

1:08

not over there. I'm over here.

1:11

near here are not over there.

1:14

I'm over here, that's that's funny. I'm

1:16

ready to talk about books on this

1:18

your podcast with you my friend Andrew

1:21

each week. One. Of us reads

1:23

a book and tells the other person about

1:25

it. So. That you the listener can

1:27

learn about a book or to learn about

1:29

our opinions about a book You fred. Are

1:32

both. Why? Long time here. Tell

1:34

us some time. But Andrew, Why are

1:36

you hear What book did you read

1:39

this I I read this week the

1:41

book their their by Tommy Orange all

1:43

their thereby Tommy Orange Yeah. I'm

1:47

excited to hear about it. I've heard about

1:49

your Foot and it sounds kind of neat.

1:51

We did and there's a Sikh. There's a

1:53

sequel coming out. Yes, it came out. I

1:56

see your our came out veg rare February.

1:58

Really came out in February. Wandering

2:00

Stars. Nice. You're.

2:03

Either I think it came out I was available

2:05

to order from one of the publisher. Well, just

2:07

Because is ready or now my be a preorder

2:09

my dude. Well. Uneasy, you're going.

2:11

It was actually did Wake of Beauty did

2:13

not refer to in the present. And yeah,

2:15

it does appear to be available Wandering Sars

2:17

a novel of it is in case you're

2:19

wondering whether of if it was a novel

2:21

or not. They always say that. I know

2:24

they always do. but this is a novel.

2:26

Also there there is I when Italy so

2:28

I read. But here's here's the actually the

2:30

funny thing about that is a starts with

2:32

a few essays. Oh and so I read

2:34

through a few the essays. I was like

2:36

this, but this is a novel though, right?

2:38

And so I did look at the cover

2:40

to see. If it said they're they're a novel

2:42

on it. and this time it didn't And so

2:44

the one time I work. With

2:48

until I read what are the ones

2:50

have expected sector make sure it wasn't

2:52

there for me and so I guess

2:54

I can't make fun of it anymore

2:57

but are very funny. A few years

2:59

ago we did. A feet drop

3:01

with the So story bound and had a

3:03

a short story from Tommy Orange on and

3:05

so he's. Been. On my radar

3:07

since then and I'm glad that we're able to

3:10

finally talk about him is in our friend of

3:12

us, friend of a friend of the chef. Or

3:14

hes yeah, he doesn't know the atoms had. Of.

3:19

But. This is his debut novel

3:21

published and twenty eighteen. He is

3:23

a and authors member of the

3:26

Cheyenne and Arapahoe. Tribes.

3:29

Native author. Born

3:32

Nineteen eighty Two. He.

3:34

Got his M F A from

3:36

the Institute of American Indian Arts

3:39

in New Mexico. I couldn't find

3:41

what community college he studied at,

3:43

but in multiple interviews he said

3:45

he I studied sound at at

3:48

a community college. Cooling.

3:50

I don't know the way I get

3:52

help our these like audio equipment or

3:55

like our or like I think like

3:57

a little bit of music, audio engineering

3:59

and like. Audio. Installation

4:01

art kind of the caf because

4:03

of you say that you. Studied.

4:06

Sounded the it does care Sound like the

4:08

i just sit around and listen to serve

4:11

Remember. When. We were. When

4:13

we when we were going to college. And

4:16

they yes our colleges you know really

4:18

likes to talk about how you can

4:20

make your a major Sometimes. And.

4:22

There was that. the story of that one

4:24

guy who is is major with coffee. Has

4:27

about that guy named real if

4:29

he's real and what this to

4:32

see, listen and what? like data

4:34

entry or and like pr job

4:37

he ended up getting with his

4:39

coffee degree as well. Bring the

4:41

liberal arts every industry Andrew is

4:44

true even coffee. Towards.

4:46

Is born and raised in Oakland,

4:48

California. Is a

4:50

Twenty Fourteen Mcdowell Fellow Twenty Sixteen

4:52

Writing By Writers Fellow Your the

4:55

teaches at the Institute of American

4:57

Indian Arts. Or. This book

4:59

one a lot of awards. Ah,

5:01

whole bunch of i'm. An

5:04

American Book Award The Doll Enterprise from there.

5:06

So Books Critics Circle, The Center for Fiction

5:08

first now a prize The Fl Wolf Book

5:10

or Fiction Resort list for the Carnegie Mellon

5:12

Finalists for the. Fuel. It surprises

5:15

number one on the San Francisco

5:17

Chronicle best though with into the

5:19

top ten. Book. Is a New

5:21

York Times bestseller list. Everybody was pumped about

5:23

this book and every review was like yo

5:25

that title god tell you about it. Law.

5:30

Does. It does it all. I don't know what

5:32

the titles about, is it all exclusively about the

5:34

I'm. Eager to denied quiet Gertrude Stein

5:36

quote I had up the i have a Little Bit.

5:38

There's a bit in the book where. He.

5:41

Talks are a character talks about. Reckon I'll

5:43

talk about now and I yeah yeah. And.

5:47

Or if I guess both, it's a good should

5:49

sign. Cool but also radio head. Yes

5:51

bit of also radio had song

5:53

and yeah I'm the best like

5:55

that. The most comprehensive profile I

5:57

found of Orange was in the.

6:00

Times by Alexander Alter Am

6:02

it is called Tommy Orange

6:04

is their. There. Is a

6:07

new kind of American Epic? Talk about

6:09

him growing up. In

6:12

the Oakland area his father was

6:14

Native American church leader. He had

6:16

a white man who was a

6:18

hippie who then converted to even

6:21

jog christianity cause some tension in

6:23

their households and still see left

6:25

that sect of her life. And

6:29

the story goes on to put him

6:31

into contact with other contemporary Native authors

6:34

who are like challenging stereotypes. They're challenging

6:36

for him. They're counting established expectations of

6:38

what native authors write about. I think

6:41

church the big thing that I saw

6:43

about this book and what Oranges Talking

6:45

About is that he. Is.

6:48

That he lived in an urban. You.

6:50

Know culture growing up like I

6:53

think he. He talks in an

6:55

interview with. Book. Whereby think

6:57

we're maybe that was the. Entertainment

6:59

Weekly. Article. I read that

7:02

was about like. Yeah. In the fifties

7:04

and sixties a bunch of Nato folks

7:06

like moved into cities and like that

7:08

is does not a part of. What?

7:11

A lot of popular

7:14

culture. Pop. Culture depictions

7:16

of Nato folks are. Yeah,

7:18

there's others. they were all

7:20

their a lotta yeah ruminations

7:22

about that in the in

7:24

this book and about how

7:26

stereotypically. It's. All about you know,

7:29

getting taxes, land, and then you. I think

7:31

even if you're talking about. How

7:33

and is a similar are. Fired

7:36

depicted in popular culture. I think

7:38

you see a lot of stuff

7:40

that's like on a reservation or

7:42

like our yard and out in

7:45

the like. For. More moral

7:47

again later after a night

7:49

or two hundred and eighty

7:51

talking talking about how. You

7:54

know that delay The Blade is is everywhere

7:56

and they're like cities up on some of

7:58

it and it's. That that's part

8:00

of the experience, down to. This.

8:03

Book he says came the idea came to

8:05

him and twenty ten he did not. You

8:08

know they said is not going to school

8:10

for writing. He was doing odd jobs, worked

8:12

out used bookstore. And and kind

8:14

of fell in love with reading and

8:16

writing in his twenties. And.

8:18

Then. I. Had an

8:20

idea for this book and twenty ten

8:23

he had been doing like a it

8:25

got a grant to do like

8:27

a Story corps community narrative project and

8:29

was on a Powwow committee and had

8:32

this idea to like bring together

8:34

urban natives to talk about their experience

8:36

and in one or reheat the off

8:38

handedly makes it sound like he

8:40

never actually finished hits hits Got Sick

8:43

and there's certainly a lot of this

8:45

novel instead which you know they

8:47

also be kind of vaguely reflected in

8:49

something. That a couple of characters in

8:52

this book to assert. Okay, great. Okay,

8:54

so he caught a had that idea

8:56

than it took him in a sixty

8:58

years to really get rolling on it

9:00

on. The. The American

9:02

Indian Art. Institute's

9:04

like. Graduate.

9:07

Writing program wasn't spun up until Twenty

9:09

Thirteen, so that's when he. He gets

9:11

into their after that. And

9:13

it's been this incubator for for all

9:15

sorts of new native voices. And.

9:19

Then yeah, this book comes out and

9:21

it's like a sensation. Everybody is very

9:23

excited about it. The. Reviews are

9:26

pretty glowing. I think I

9:28

found maybe one or two

9:30

that have. At most

9:32

like a knock against it or kind

9:34

of can point out. If.

9:36

It doesn't work for you. Here's

9:39

baby Why? But nobody is everybody.

9:42

People. Pro. Now what am

9:45

I saying? Little like to see work and

9:47

they're generally excited about. A critical consensus about

9:49

this book is that it's good I guess

9:51

is what you're trying to get from Joy

9:53

of the Like. Account for everything the every

9:55

individual person I just got and wrapped up

9:57

in which way I wanted to construct a

9:59

system. I

10:03

am curious to hear like that these

10:05

views that the critical things that you

10:07

did here. I'm curious to talk about

10:09

them because I don't have my it's

10:11

like I did like this book barrier

10:13

was a moment. In. The middle

10:15

where it became clear that it was

10:17

gonna end in like a mass shooting

10:19

was like well that sucks Oh boy all

10:21

good to know. Ah okay yeah other

10:23

I mean it is. It is a

10:25

very interesting book as a lot of interesting

10:28

prospectus in it sir of them. Yeah.

10:30

Well that's what I That's where I

10:33

come down. Have meter the critical consensus,

10:35

please? Or

10:38

it well lit cigarette break and then

10:40

you can join. The.

10:42

Nobody Somebody everybody. List

10:44

of Critics: hated. Square

10:57

Space, Stroller, a website and

10:59

is Rena and you think

11:01

yourself? there's no there there.

11:05

I have. I've looked at web

11:08

sites and found them wanting. Yeah,

11:10

has there simply was

11:12

nothing there? There.

11:16

Well if you find yourself wanting a

11:18

better website usage you square space. It's

11:20

website. Else You make web sites by giving

11:22

you beautiful templates, easy to use drag

11:24

and drop tools, Twenty Four Seven, Customer

11:26

support and so much more. All the things

11:28

you need to make a great website

11:30

without know it really needing to like

11:32

know how to make a great way

11:34

That so I wanna know how to do

11:37

it except how to do it with

11:39

square space. So please tell me yeah

11:41

here. here's how you make a website without

11:43

learning how to me who assess with

11:45

quest it's a. Split were so sagan

11:47

a bath in the flu. It ends

11:49

in the next generation website design system

11:51

from Square Space is never been easier

11:53

for anyone to unlock unbreakable creativity. Start

11:55

with a best in class website templates

11:57

and customize every design detail with reimagine

11:59

drag. Drop technology for desktop or

12:01

mobile. They. Also give you

12:03

flexible website templates. Get started one of

12:06

their professional website template with designs for

12:08

every category and use case. the customize

12:10

your look of the content and add

12:12

features to fit your unique needs. You

12:14

to make any square space template do

12:16

what you want some your idea, brand

12:19

or business days or online. on every

12:21

device they be Casio watches, tablets, graphing

12:23

calculators every to a little how memory

12:25

card thing from the dream care of

12:27

the drink a chef her. I've

12:31

also got blogging tools that you can use.

12:33

A Share stories, photos, videos and updates

12:35

categorize. Share In. Schedule your post to

12:37

make your content work for you. Greg

12:39

the sounds good to you! This

12:41

is this their their Square space.com there

12:43

is were eager for for each file

12:45

When you realize go to Square space

12:48

accomplish over the of save ten percent

12:50

of your first purchase of a website

12:52

or domain again that Square space.com/overdue to

12:55

save ten percent of the first such

12:57

as and a website or funny he.

13:05

Really want to start? Andrew

13:07

Square Question. At the is

13:09

that there's a prologue in this book that

13:11

a lot of people. In.

13:13

The critical community. The critics community.

13:16

Talk about the critics Community again.

13:18

Yeah to my community. Rick

13:21

I'm is that it came up a

13:23

lot the that the tubing the code

13:26

came up in almost every viewer and

13:28

where the title which I'm sure will

13:30

talk about and whatever this opening. Is

13:33

so how does the book opens

13:35

the will Emea at as I

13:37

mentioned before when I saw him

13:39

off a novel saying the prologue

13:41

does have some things that that

13:43

feel more essayist then. Then.

13:46

Six in all I me the internet. you. Have.

13:49

A letter A voice to them that

13:51

is. That makes them not strictly like.

13:53

Here's here's an educational essay about your

13:56

in what you need to note. Understand

13:58

this books. But

14:00

it does. But before introducing any

14:02

characters any anything it just sets

14:04

up as can add what some

14:06

of the themes are going to

14:08

be in a few. Just like

14:10

short. Paragraphs okay

14:12

under under a few different sub

14:14

headings i'm one of them is

14:16

about you know why people taking

14:19

land from people lived here before

14:21

we got here sir So you

14:23

know that that saying in yeah

14:25

is it like. Talking

14:27

about individual people as it kind

14:30

of a zoomed out encyclopedia voice.

14:33

It's. Ah, don't

14:35

dwell on, I'm just curious. Area.

14:37

It begins with an essay called Indian Head. There

14:39

is an Indian head. The head of an Indian.

14:41

The drawing of the head of a headdress, long

14:43

haired Indian depicted drawn by an unknown artist. Nineteen

14:46

Thirty Nine broadcast until the late Nineteen seventies to

14:48

American Tv is everywhere after all the shows ran

14:50

out. Called the idiot had test pattern. If he

14:52

left the see the on, you'd hear a tone

14:54

at Four Hundred Forty hurts. The tone used to

14:56

tune instruments and he'd see that Indian surrounded by

14:58

circles that look like sites through rifle scopes. Those

15:00

what looked like a bull's eye in the middle

15:02

of the screen with numbers like coordinates. The Indians

15:04

head was just above the bulls. I like all

15:06

you need. To do was not up an agreement to

15:09

set the sights on the targets. This was just a

15:11

tests. And then from there it

15:13

says and sixteen twenty one colonists advice as

15:15

she for the a whopper know I go

15:17

to a feast after recently and deal. Two

15:21

hundred Indians drop dead that night from

15:24

an unknown poison and a couple other

15:26

anecdotes like that's okay. okay, So

15:29

kind of a like a modern

15:32

yes. Here is

15:34

like a depiction. That.

15:37

Is itself strange, if

15:39

not. Problematic. Whatever

15:41

you want to think about it, and then let's get

15:43

into the violent history. Going. As

15:45

bad as far back as we can, so I

15:47

kind of spanning. That

15:50

you know. Centuries,

15:52

Of what has gone on here, I'm you

15:54

know a little that it's it's mostly sorry

15:56

about initial. Interactions. Between.

16:00

The people in need of people and. Saying.

16:02

Hey, I've the white building not we're

16:04

not on the level in in dealing

16:06

with these people and majoras this is.

16:09

What we are dealing with and having

16:11

in having been. Like.

16:14

Forcibly assimilated into this into this

16:16

culture and what we're kind of

16:18

the having to fight back against

16:20

says we'd try to find why

16:22

our identity is because there is.

16:24

There's a lot of. Searching

16:27

for identity. In this book, there's a lot

16:29

of thinking about identity, but there's also a

16:31

lot of. Like what

16:33

is it Would it mean to be native? Am I

16:35

even native? Do I present that way? Do I feel

16:38

that way? Yet. I do. Do.

16:40

I feel like I'm faking If I mean I

16:42

get big group of of people in are all

16:44

together doing something. Does it feel like we're all

16:47

this dressing up and and playing pretend like

16:49

they're There's a lot of ruminating on that and

16:51

now lot of like declared and statements about sure

16:53

who is, who is right and who isn't Because

16:55

I think the point is that. The

16:58

experience, especially like the modern native experience,

17:00

encompasses all this all of these things

17:02

and the end of a in and

17:04

having those thoughts as part of. Being

17:07

part of that, by culturing community

17:09

and having those thoughts you get.

17:12

You cannot escape. The. Fact.

17:14

Is. You're in this position that you are having

17:17

your thoughts. In a world where this history happened

17:19

right like that seems to be the point

17:21

of including this He said he told by

17:23

the was a New York Times. He said

17:25

of native writers, there's a certain feeling that you

17:27

have to set the record straight before you

17:29

even begin. It's been told wrong and not

17:31

told so often. And

17:33

then isn't it had Entertainment Weekly.

17:36

Interview with David Canfield. He

17:38

said. I.

17:40

Love I love prologue that love that they

17:42

can contextualize all of their optional You could

17:45

do skip the who wanted but he says

17:47

I think of native people. We have a

17:49

history of learning bad history and not only

17:51

not hearing our stories but hearing it told

17:54

wrong. It's covered up or down right lie

17:56

about what will happen, what went down in

17:58

American history to largest. The collective American

18:00

consciousness still buys into somewhat of a

18:03

heroic past, so he wants to express

18:05

it from a native perspective. So. Yeah.

18:08

I'd that. It's.

18:10

Interesting that he made a choice to do that.

18:13

Not. In a narrative

18:15

fiction way. But.

18:18

Was just like Noms gonna write an essay

18:20

instead. Yeah, yeah, this New Jersey is it

18:22

is. That's not the thing you want your

18:24

book to be entirely about, but you do

18:26

on the context to be there. It's yeah,

18:28

it's a smart way to to handle and

18:30

the yeah, not not just not just people

18:32

who. Want to? To.

18:35

Make out American history of be

18:37

like this heroic is. Manifest.

18:40

Destiny sort of god given the

18:42

thing, but. Also.

18:44

A group of people who additionally will get

18:46

super mad at you if you try to

18:48

contextualize any of this. you know her. Young.

18:51

And. Movie Learn about. History

18:54

without. All the statues are out all the

18:56

time. This is how I mainly learn about

18:58

history. If there's somebody this summer you did

19:00

some important in his last as you them

19:02

I just don't know. I just don't know

19:04

what what their deal is which is unfortunate

19:06

because there's so many sets use of risk.

19:09

Of and you have a bump in the

19:11

them I now and that's all you're gonna

19:13

get. This is me going to those wax

19:15

museum and his trial. A: Who's this guy?

19:17

Arrow? Would

19:21

fly know. I. Don't think I've ever.

19:23

I. Think I'm a big on a one wax museum. Who?

19:28

creepy yeah idol? it's I agree. It's

19:30

it's it's where the Uncanny Valley was

19:32

invented. Is a hypothetical wax serious of

19:35

us? So what is the transition V

19:37

When the Ss that you the book

19:39

proper so I'm not know regular yeah

19:42

I did want to talk about the

19:44

the the essayed saying that oh sir.

19:46

Third set up more directly was her.

19:49

Oh. I didn't have as a team of.

19:51

the book is as he talks about a

19:53

couple times about or there's one essays is

19:55

this is called Urbana D. There's another one

19:58

called Hard Fast that's talks about. City's

20:01

getting us to cities was supposed to be

20:03

the final necessary step in our assimilation absorption

20:05

eraser, the completion of a five hundred year

20:07

old genocidal campaign. But the City made us

20:09

new and we made it hours. We didn't

20:11

get lost amid the sprawl, tall buildings, a

20:13

stream of anonymous masses, the ceaseless in of

20:15

traffic we found one another, started up Indian

20:17

centers, brought out our families and powwows are

20:20

dancers are songs are beadwork. We bought and

20:22

rented homes, slept on the streets under freeways.

20:24

We went to school, join the armed forces

20:26

populated Indian bars in The Fruit Veil in

20:28

Oakland and The Mission in San Francisco. We.

20:30

Lived in Bucks Car Villages in Richmond. We

20:32

need art, we may babies and we made

20:34

way for people to go back and forth

20:36

between reservation and cities. will not move to

20:39

cities to die. The sidewalk and streets the

20:41

concrete absorbed are heaviness. The glass, metal, rubber

20:43

and wires, the speed the hurdling masses the

20:45

city took us and we were not urban

20:47

Indians then this was part of the Indian

20:49

Relocation act, was part of the Indian Termination

20:51

policy which was and is exactly what it

20:53

sounds like. Make them look and act like

20:55

us, become us and so disappear. But it

20:57

wasn't just like that, I'm.

21:01

In. Seattle. Again

21:03

like the probably the most that the thing

21:05

about this book that I found the most

21:07

interesting that I had like encountered the lease

21:10

is this. Depiction

21:12

of. Native life that

21:14

is not Gag again like not

21:16

centered on a reservation, just center

21:18

on finding community in a place

21:21

where you're more mixed in with

21:23

a bunch of different like young

21:25

people yup and cultures and experiences

21:27

with not what we're but we

21:29

talked about cities when we talked

21:31

about the Toni Morrison book that

21:33

you did oh you low yeah

21:36

yeah yeah. recently I just by

21:38

time or South Korea. What

21:41

can I was? I was in what that when I read some of

21:43

the quotes. From Orange about. Native.

21:45

Folks moving to cities in

21:47

the mid twentieth century, which

21:49

is you know, thirty forty

21:51

years after. The. Great migration

21:54

of folks in a black folks leaving

21:56

the south. he I imagine there's it

21:58

is a different scale. And it's

22:00

different cities I'm sure. But

22:04

yeah but you're right. it a draw a comparison

22:06

I thought talking about the same I think a

22:08

sector I was. Even

22:11

though they're do it you know you. You

22:13

move all these people into one place and

22:16

sometimes it actually makes it a little bit

22:18

easier to find a yes community just because

22:20

of seared density network you know that would

22:22

Jazz was the I was struck by that

22:25

and Jazz as well it was. There are

22:27

there were characters who were giving voice to

22:29

the sense of like jazz I was yours

22:31

how much as the music or Jazz third

22:33

book by to anymore So I was talking

22:36

about the transformer named Jazz. Okay I'm. Who.

22:38

Who did move into the city's at

22:41

one point? he? he lives on cybercrime

22:43

first of to New York City and.

22:48

Go ahead and those are your tie

22:50

rods as by Tony Morse L. Just

22:53

that there are multiple characters are Jazz,

22:55

the transformer included who talked about moving

22:57

to New York City and the the

22:59

fact that there were there were houses

23:01

to rent. There was a. You.

23:03

Could have a street that

23:05

was all. folks that you

23:07

could connect with, you know,

23:09

like you weren't spread out,

23:11

you weren't in a in

23:13

in neatly hostile territory and.

23:16

Yeah. That. That. Seems

23:18

like a ceiling comparison

23:20

couldn't Good Reference: Better

23:23

reference than Jazz The Transformer Me.

23:26

A The book. It's selig that this

23:29

this prologue as a part does not

23:31

last very long scans and table setting

23:33

and then that the main books is

23:35

split up into. Three. There, there's

23:38

also an interlude that has a little bit more

23:40

as they suffer prying a Talk about that part.

23:43

But the the like main

23:45

narrative is split up into

23:47

like for loosely add. Associated

23:50

Parts Part One, two, three, four

23:52

apart one called remain. Part two

23:55

is called reclaimed. Part three is

23:57

called Returned and part for is

23:59

called Powwow. So

24:01

if each a little chapter within

24:03

within each part is talking about

24:05

a different character, you're gonna meet

24:08

a lot of different characters. Usually,

24:10

I mean, more often than not

24:12

a new chapters can introduce a

24:14

new character or it's going to

24:16

be somebody you've met or heard

24:18

about before in one of the

24:20

other chapters. But it's somebody who's

24:22

like perspective you have not inhabited

24:24

yet. Yeah, done. one or two.

24:27

References to this being like a little sort

24:29

of an epic in like the scale of

24:31

how many people were in there, but I

24:33

know it's not a big. Book.

24:36

Like how hard it what?

24:38

How's your experience of the

24:40

character roster? Like. Eventually, Yeah

24:42

of eventually you start. You

24:46

you need part to especially you

24:48

start seeing okay I am. Yeah.

24:51

I am Not. I. Have not

24:53

revisited any of the characters from

24:55

part one yet, but I am

24:58

getting perspectives of people who appeared

25:00

in in some of the stories

25:02

and again, okay and so it

25:04

in in part one I'm like

25:06

okay, is this gonna be like

25:08

that? There is a a the

25:10

second character if me. This guy

25:12

named Dean. Is ah I

25:14

think that's a d any is higher

25:16

pounds forget. But

25:19

he is. He

25:21

is quote not recognizably native. He's ambiguously

25:23

nonwhite over the years he been assumed

25:25

Mexican, plenty. Been asked if you're Chinese,

25:28

Korean, Japanese, Salvadoran once. but mostly the

25:30

question came like this: what are you

25:32

As a you He is a a

25:34

young ish man who is. Trying

25:37

to get a grant money. So

25:40

he can do canvas film project

25:42

where he's basically his pitches basically

25:44

just i'm gonna find as many.

25:46

Native. People from around Oakland as I can

25:49

on I'm just gonna point a camera them

25:51

and like as years to tell me a

25:53

story. Yeah and it's that This is the

25:55

the things on your get abs is reflecting

25:57

Tommy Oranges experience a little bit where. He's

26:00

saying in i'm I'm gonna let the

26:02

the content dictate what the end product

26:04

ends up being and then and then

26:06

a bright after that constantly telling himself

26:08

that than I'd That does not mean

26:10

I'm just making it up as I

26:12

did. I'd probably. Have

26:15

a yeah, Just kind of trusting that.

26:18

In in trying to to do this thing

26:20

of of cultural worth that eventually once you

26:23

add it all up it will become clear

26:25

one what the through line is and will

26:27

become a compelling thing. And

26:31

so it's kind of sets you up

26:33

this to wonder. Okay is this

26:35

is this book basically going to be.

26:38

This project or is a going to

26:40

like a mirror this process in some

26:42

way that kind of a kind of

26:44

does okay to set you up to.

26:47

Be. Ready for with the rest of the

26:49

book is doing buy ads for a what

26:51

does it all just to say For a

26:53

while I was not sure whether I've just

26:55

can be meeting new characters constantly all the

26:57

time or if we are working toward one

26:59

like big event. At the end it does

27:01

become clear that you are working poor wonder.

27:03

What it doesn't sound like is that he

27:05

and I think there is. There are other

27:08

books that do this instead which is like.

27:10

He could have written just his experience

27:12

or he he had. It sounds like

27:14

he made a deliberate choice to not

27:17

just like riff on. His

27:19

lived experience through certainly it

27:21

seems like. Fragments of

27:23

it or in here at least. yeah yeah yeah

27:25

yeah but I from from interviews and from what

27:27

you're describing it sounds. Like. He approached

27:30

this with a goal of. Representing

27:33

a lot of different perspective than.

27:36

Were other authors you know and a business

27:38

does not be either way would choose to

27:40

be like well let me tell my story

27:43

and hope that. The specificity of

27:45

it resonates with other people. And

27:47

he has instead gives us as I guess one

27:49

of than one of the. Somebody.

27:52

What did somebody say? An interview? They

27:54

said. Or

27:57

this was from Npr. The risk with this kind

27:59

of. Chorus line plot structure

28:01

is that it can feel

28:03

mechanical on. The. Not

28:05

the novel sometimes does one. It stalls

28:07

in the company of the weaker characters.

28:10

So. It's like. By being

28:12

so. Cast: Of characters

28:15

driven if not all the characters hit.

28:18

Yeah, it's it's. Most

28:21

of the characters do. Thankfully.

28:24

I think the characters who are. The

28:26

weakest are the ones who set

28:28

up like the Big Tragic. Surfing.

28:32

At the thing at the end, like that,

28:34

they are the least distinctly drawn to me.

28:36

There's a lot of stuff about them, kind

28:38

of in the middle chapters that I. Lost

28:41

track of it look as help

28:43

that a lot of the other

28:45

characters our our. Like

28:48

related. In some way like it's

28:50

kind of a loose family give your if

28:52

you tell you about okay what did those

28:54

those the titles of the parts me in

28:57

the oh sure yeah it is sort of

28:59

a family that's been scattered apart by like

29:01

choice and circumstance. Coming

29:04

back together to. Be

29:07

reunited in a bit it by an

29:10

event that both like tragic but also

29:12

with the possibility of of something like

29:14

that and hopeful commitment that com um

29:16

yes that that's interesting. I'm. So.

29:19

Sorry about the league and I don't

29:21

think. Every character has

29:23

like a super distinct. Voice

29:26

all that all. Oh yes, I

29:29

think that. Tommy.

29:31

Oranges voice in the way that he writes

29:33

is is interesting serve a I was I

29:35

want to know more about that Yeah so

29:37

did to talk about the the title the

29:40

book. For. A sec and listen, I

29:42

don't. I don't I'm

29:44

not trying to attack you personally by

29:46

reading this passage the of x a

29:48

white man that Dean runs into and

29:50

gets their to apply for his great.

29:54

A. There's

29:57

a guy standing outside the door to the room he was

29:59

told to go to. Dean hate who he thinks

30:01

the guy is, who he has to be. He's

30:03

the kind of ball that requires a daily save.

30:05

He wants to look like he's in control of

30:07

his hair, like being bold as his personal choice.

30:10

but the faintest hint of hair appears on the

30:12

sides and not a trace of the crown. Is

30:14

got a sizable but neat light brown beard, which

30:16

is clearly compensation for the lack of hair up

30:18

there. plus a trend now white hipsters everywhere trying

30:20

to come off as confidence, all the while hiding

30:23

their entire faces. Guy: big bushy beard and thick

30:25

black rimmed glasses. Dean wonders whether you have to

30:27

be a person of color to get the grant.

30:29

The guys. Probably working with kids on a

30:31

garbage art prospects dimple that this phone in

30:34

an attempt to avoid converse. It's. Listen.

30:36

I've never met Tommy Orange. I don't

30:38

know how he knows this of our

30:41

me a. I. Only

30:43

thing I would quibble with his. I

30:45

don't actually think. That

30:48

any any. Actual.

30:50

Hipster would quite would

30:52

ever. Consider me a hipster

30:54

I think I'm to square to be a

30:57

hips I think you're to yeah you're to

30:59

like norm core of has who earnest yam.

31:03

But. Yeah, I mean I don't I

31:05

save my daily. I know it's a

31:07

nice I sex act like you're. You're

31:11

You're look works very well for

31:13

you and Hybrid hey that I'm

31:15

very happy that he sounded because

31:17

I have not bother to interrogate.

31:20

My look enlightens Twenty years and

31:22

you're looking good. Solid brand though.

31:24

Fossey A. Like,

31:26

what's nice is that your look matches the

31:28

mental image I have a view of my

31:30

head as a good one. Yeah, That.

31:33

I just got an unfair that Tommy Orange knows

31:35

be so well unfair that he looked at a

31:37

picture of your as like how can I was

31:39

out of. It

31:44

like working with a clear that on

31:46

okay when he says garbage art project

31:48

as he me and garbage in a

31:50

pejorative way or it's like we're making

31:52

art from garbage which I would do

31:54

garbage art hyphenated which I take to

31:56

me and my young art from garbage.

31:59

Perhaps. Would like under privileged kids

32:01

or something and live hijacked. I.

32:05

Like this, I'm glad about the

32:07

another. I feel honored and feel

32:09

you know and represented. Assess Assess

32:12

as a. Albertsons

32:14

the timing of others. this guy.

32:18

And the book doesn't. I mean it's not. it's

32:20

not all like take downs is extremely specific will

32:22

hit because. He

32:25

talks about doing deem. Further

32:27

talking about about that his

32:29

interaction with this guy who.

32:32

Asks him if he's read about Gertrude Stein

32:34

because he sang about Uni. talk about being

32:37

from Oakland and talking about how yeah there's

32:39

no authenticity left in this in this neighborhood

32:41

or what is your yeah and this is

32:43

the guy's name is Robert there is no

32:45

there there he says and a kind of

32:47

whisper with this goofy open mouth mild he

32:50

wants to punch the wants to tell him

32:52

he looks up the crew in it's original

32:54

context in her everybody's autobiography and found the

32:56

she was talking about how the place where

32:58

she grown up in Oakland had seen so

33:01

much that summers development. Happen. There that the

33:03

their of her childhood the there there was gone

33:05

and there was no there there anymore. He wants

33:07

to tell him it's what happened to native people

33:09

Who wants to explain that they're not the same

33:11

that Dean, his native born and raised in Oakland

33:13

from Oakland. Rob probably didn't look any further into

33:15

the quote because he got what he wanted from

33:17

it. He probably use the quoted dinner party the

33:19

meet other people like him feel good about taking

33:21

over neighborhoods they wouldn't have had the guts to

33:24

drive through ten years ago. The

33:26

quoted important to deemed as their their he

33:28

hadn't read Your kids died beyond the quote

33:30

of her native people In this country all

33:32

over the Americas, it's been developed over buried

33:34

ancestral land, glass and concrete and wire and

33:36

steel under turnbull covered memory there is no

33:38

they're they're. So.

33:41

Young to say that there's another part where it's

33:43

like, yeah there. There's also the name, really assess.

33:47

Assess buzzwords interacting with where I think

33:49

that the name mostly is comics of

33:51

just sits. I mean that's great. That

33:53

and again that gets to the thing

33:55

we're saying earlier with the essays where

33:58

it's dislike. There. Is. Irrefutable.

34:01

Irreconcilable, irreversible,

34:05

Just. World change that happens

34:07

to native people. And.

34:11

What? What else can you do

34:13

but is Michael? Recognize

34:15

it and then build a life

34:17

Anyway, because you're here. You're.

34:20

here here. The

34:23

other big. Semantic.

34:25

Thing that I think is is

34:27

underpinning. A. Lot of the

34:29

of characters in this book is

34:31

like out alcohol and specifically like

34:33

using it to. Check.

34:35

Out a little bit. Okay, There's a

34:38

character who says it's not the alcohol. there's

34:40

not some special relationship between Indians, and alcohol

34:42

is just what's cheap, available, legal, what we

34:44

have to go to when it seems like

34:46

we have nothing else left. I'm.

34:50

Yeah. You there? There are a lot

34:52

of people in this book are struggling

34:55

with like substance. Issues

34:57

or who have in the past.

35:01

There are. People. Yen

35:04

and and yeah, like like I mentioned earlier,

35:06

also just like the identity issues and how

35:08

those things are kind of like. Other

35:11

granted up in each and yeah, I'm

35:14

so he the most most so you're

35:16

mean a lot different characters in part

35:18

to it becomes clear that. I

35:20

you're going to circle the same few

35:23

characters over and over again if if

35:25

you know is if not always from

35:27

the same perspective is also doing some

35:29

different or is changing for like first

35:31

the third person. Add some times

35:33

in different chapters about the same characters like

35:36

do about it was a character okay yeah

35:38

just to doing a little bit of a.

35:41

Flourishing yes sir, and in a way

35:43

that maybe is contributing to that criticism

35:46

of of the book as being mechanical

35:48

sometimes just like. Yeah.

35:50

But I get to switch Edna I have like

35:52

a thorough a day worked for me like I

35:54

I enjoy yeah but I can see. How

35:57

somebody ring the said would feel like maybe is a

35:59

little gimmick years. Something you know? anyone? Sure. I'm

36:01

sure it from his perspective is like it's

36:03

energizing, like I'm not going to come back

36:05

to the same. Like

36:07

P O V with exactly the way

36:09

it was last time. You found it

36:12

like an interesting impulse. Yeah,

36:14

yeah, I'm so it's You

36:16

start to make links as

36:18

the chapters go on and

36:20

realize like oh, this this

36:22

character who. Had

36:24

a baby and gave it up. Like

36:27

that that baby is this character.

36:29

And. Then see

36:32

all of that. the

36:34

the guy whose baby it is also

36:36

have like another kid with somebody else

36:38

and like these two like half siblings

36:41

are going to meet each other eventually

36:43

and like dude and nobody really. Is

36:47

intentionally like nobody in his

36:49

family's intentionally moving all back.

36:52

Together to all meet in the same place of the

36:54

same time. But it

36:56

is can what is happening in the

36:58

like. The book is building toward this

37:01

a powwow in Oakland. Palm.

37:04

Where. But everybody's gonna go and then

37:06

also some like bad guys are gonna go

37:08

there and try to steal the prize money.

37:11

From. The power to pay off like drugs, debt.

37:14

Okay and which is that I think just

37:16

the weakest The and in general I think

37:18

that the the. Lead. Them

37:20

than. A double

37:22

violent than revealing over started stealing the

37:24

money supply and all like the it's.

37:27

Near the display like three print guns and

37:29

sneak them in and it's all like it's

37:31

all fine, but it was that. Definitely the

37:33

the. Itself

37:36

like. A little

37:38

bit an effort to introduce

37:40

conflict into what kind of

37:42

started as. Less. Point the camera

37:44

a bunch people on and tell some stories. Yes,

37:48

Yeah, that's true and is it can is the tone

37:50

of it. Is

37:53

it the tone of that particular plotline?

37:55

Is it like. Really? Serious.

37:58

Is it does it have the. Coen.

38:01

Brothers whimsey to we're in the half

38:04

a dozen ignited the it's a scan

38:06

it generally feals dark and once it's

38:08

clear the that's where it's heading it

38:10

just all feels very years waiting for

38:12

it to whether yeah I pay off

38:14

I jog what it was, what bad

38:16

things can happen and does end up

38:18

being the case where like a bunch

38:20

of characters who you. Have.

38:22

Met and up dying or getting jobs

38:24

sir I'm and like that The bit

38:27

of hope that that comes out the

38:29

end of the the book is like.

38:32

These the a lot of these people who

38:34

are in this big extended messy. Family.

38:40

Like. Some there are a couple

38:42

of sisters who haven't spoken in

38:45

and lots and lots of years

38:47

the one sister's kids are being.

38:50

And is complicated. The one hundred

38:52

grand kids are being raised by

38:54

the other sister. And

38:57

the Tuesday? Like the two sisters don't know

38:59

that they're both gonna be at this powwows.

39:02

Together independently, but then. One

39:05

of the grandkids gets shot in this.

39:08

Scrum: And they

39:10

all end up like back together at the hospital.

39:12

And there's like this this moment of. Of.

39:15

Hope where it's strongly imply that everybody's

39:17

be gonna be okay and everybody's me

39:19

another there's gonna be on after this.

39:21

For this this family in the like

39:24

a wake of the stretch experience I

39:26

do kind of wonder what like how

39:28

the book would have gone down as

39:30

it just focused on. Like.

39:32

The family conflict and like the family

39:34

reunification of and set of also making

39:36

it like a. Is

39:39

my. Experience in

39:42

the Bad: Intro fit

39:44

six writing seminar guys

39:46

you're in college. partly.

39:49

Because I wrote one of these stories and partly because

39:51

I read wanna have a bunch of them is like.

39:54

I. Always. At get immediately skeptical

39:57

when I get to the part of a book that's

39:59

like and then. with a guy and yeah

40:01

note I you've talked to other before

40:03

I know this is really stuck with

40:05

you because it does suck was its

40:08

reminding me of. When

40:10

I read tomorrow and tomorrow and

40:12

tomorrow. Because. That book

40:15

also has like an office

40:17

shooter. Sequence. In

40:19

it. And. It. It. Is

40:22

both feals of a peace with

40:24

what the novel is about and

40:26

also feels like a real big

40:29

escalation relative to a lot of

40:31

the character work that's going on

40:33

in it and I I don't

40:35

know that there's any way to

40:37

square that circle because like. Force

40:40

some books. that's gonna. Land.

40:43

Fine, and some books that might take you out.

40:45

And I don't know there's any way to predict

40:47

because it could just be like how you're feeling

40:49

on the day. But

40:53

you're also hearing you're also getting it

40:55

in the like. And

40:57

I can see what this is doing

40:59

for the book structurally. Is.

41:03

A distracting you from the character

41:05

stuff not working. know it's too because

41:07

it is so up it right up

41:09

until the moment of the shooting

41:11

things happening it's mostly being doled out

41:14

you and little like bits and pieces

41:16

of foreshadowing like that the books

41:18

days. And what works

41:20

the best about as it does stay

41:22

focused on it's characters her pretty much

41:24

the entire length until you get like

41:26

right to the end and then and

41:29

the shooting supply can takes over surfaces.

41:31

The way the way different characters are

41:33

are like relating to their culture and

41:35

the way like so have some of

41:37

the some of the characters you'd. Stick.

41:39

With me there is. Edwin

41:42

who is a. Ah,

41:44

Like a recent college graduate who.

41:47

I. You know, graduating from college

41:49

is kind of the the peak of

41:52

his life And any hint like move

41:54

back in with his mom and he's

41:56

like mildly internet addicted in a way

41:58

that. Is.

42:01

Kind of. I'm a little less it's

42:03

it manages to depict what it's like.

42:05

see, just be like. Glued

42:07

to your computer like driven. Driven.

42:11

To distraction by like. Oh.

42:14

Assault popped in my head. I'm gonna look, I'm

42:16

gonna look up something about it and then I'm

42:18

gonna fall down on wikipedia whole for like three

42:20

hours as it's very like true to have your

42:22

life era he'd take. A

42:27

while also dealing with like the.

42:30

The ways in which this this guy

42:32

doesn't does not feel native than and

42:35

also like he's he's gained a lot

42:37

of weight while he's been living at

42:39

home and this the way that he's

42:41

like relating to his body now an

42:44

endless like how complicated that was. I

42:46

thought it was interesting the handled there

42:48

a Jackie read Feather who is the

42:51

one of the two sisters I mentioned

42:53

to see had one baby the she

42:55

gave up said another baby who. Had

42:59

died later partly because

43:01

of of drugs and

43:03

alcohol abuse issues. On

43:05

and and see Jackie

43:07

herself. I'm. Is.

43:09

An alcoholic who is on

43:11

and off like recovering. Oh

43:13

god, but she has. Partly

43:16

because of the pain of losing her

43:18

daughter probably cause she doesn't like trusted

43:20

self as like given up. These three

43:22

had three grand kids who are living

43:25

with her sister. I'm. So

43:27

I I saw that her. A.

43:31

heard struggle with. Plex.

43:33

Trying not to drink and my coming up on

43:35

the edge of it and then walking back from

43:37

it and and the way that see. That

43:41

the the way that she interacted with that and

43:43

and the way that see. Like.

43:46

He did. It just felt like a

43:48

very lives in perspective I guess. Yeah

43:50

sure. Thera that was really compelling and

43:52

and that old that will say with

43:54

me I'm one of the one of

43:56

the grand kids who is living with

43:58

the the sister like experiences. His grandmother

44:00

as this they'll call who's as that

44:02

the characters actually their gray and their

44:04

grandmothers because they they live with her.

44:07

That's that's how it is. They did

44:09

not like a secret thing where they

44:11

don't know that their mom died in

44:13

the bearer. real grandmother is gone as

44:15

just like this is how this family

44:17

is constructed. Ah,

44:20

but see Opal the grandmother. Doesn't

44:23

really want to like teach them a

44:25

lot about their culture and not because

44:28

she doesn't want them to. Know

44:30

about it, but because she believes for whatever reason

44:32

that they need to come to it on their

44:34

own, like when they're ready. Arm.

44:37

And so you've got the oldest

44:39

of these of these three grand

44:41

kids, whose name is. Ah,

44:46

Orville. Read Sather okay a he

44:48

has been like watching like you tube

44:50

videos of like of like powwows and

44:53

dancing and he's found like this had

44:55

dress in his grandmother's closet and he.

44:58

Gets up any and he puts it on

45:00

and he like dances in front of the

45:02

mirror just like trying to. Third, Research

45:05

and like teach himself stuff about this part

45:07

of his life that he feels really disconnected

45:09

from but he also really wants to be

45:11

part of this power like ads thought that

45:13

that that his. It's.

45:16

Is that not a. In the

45:18

the media the I've. Seen.

45:21

That as depicted nave characters I haven't

45:23

There's a lot of different like archetypes

45:25

in this that I had not. Sure,

45:27

I'm with. and sort of, yeah, there, there are a lot

45:30

of them. They're gonna. That. I

45:32

will be thinking about for a while, I

45:34

think I think that is the upside of

45:36

a novel that structured like this one is

45:38

that you. You. Know. You.

45:41

Get a wide range of characters to

45:43

choose from to connect with in a

45:45

way and like you're on the through,

45:47

like reading the book and then picking

45:49

who you're gonna connect with. But it

45:51

is the sense that like. By.

45:54

The sheer law of. Moderate sized

45:57

numbers like they're gonna have you

45:59

that hit you The quote from

46:01

the New York Times review by

46:04

com toibin. Said no

46:06

one in the novel is fully sure how to

46:08

look or act, how to live or be and

46:10

that that is what you get. The.

46:13

Care of you just described reminded me of

46:15

that. Yeah, it's really. I think you know

46:17

it's true to being a person, but then

46:19

also. Or and slays

46:21

on this this extra layer of.

46:24

In. Other than need of experience and

46:26

land and specifically like this this. Urban.

46:30

Date of experience that he is interested

46:32

in exploring. Did you speak any more

46:34

to that in terms of like how

46:36

it's. Depicted. Or

46:38

or what issues or discuss. I

46:40

think this is the so much

46:43

of it is that all of

46:45

these characters live in or are

46:47

from Oakland. Make. His you're

46:49

like us It's sort of I. I'm not

46:51

gonna say that the city is character in

46:53

the book because I don't hand. You're allowed

46:56

to say I want to say because I

46:58

don't think that's quite. What the

47:00

what? the deal is Both a

47:02

pleasure to V City is an

47:04

important commonality. the all the characters

47:06

have or they're not pages that

47:08

are like and then the buildings

47:10

of Oakland all side as everyone

47:12

woke up and dreamed about whether

47:14

or not they would have a

47:17

baseball team next year. you know

47:19

like know nobody nowhere. Okay though

47:21

there are a couple people who

47:23

think really fondly of like a

47:25

couple of. They get their is

47:27

like a world series stress and like the

47:29

seventies or something we arms around thing as

47:31

the home to do a lot of money

47:33

of all the infamous book I mean i

47:35

really miss the really meant mine by on

47:37

think they talk about Billy bean. Or

47:40

anything they do but the the another had the

47:42

Oakland Athletics to come up a couple of times.

47:45

You just goods are building a sense of

47:47

place. I think that that's the Degas. The

47:49

biggest thing about. The

47:51

Dead. As. Aside

47:53

from. Just. Like you're all these

47:56

people who. Share

47:58

this city in common. But

48:03

otherwise like aren't really in each other's

48:05

lives initially like they're yeah yeah, sort

48:07

of pull together around this power. They

48:09

and the power is like a new.

48:12

Is. The thing is happening for the first time.

48:14

Cool. I was wondering about an hour. Okay kids,

48:16

yeah, so you got a couple characters who are

48:18

working on making it happen. It's like a. As.

48:22

Orange talked about in the. Will.

48:25

Lick Prologue as say that I that I wrote

48:28

it's you know it is is people from this

48:30

community coming together to like sound a seeing so

48:32

that. Their. Community has a place

48:34

to get together and do. Serve.

48:36

Do what they want whenever they want to

48:38

do. Whether just like couldn't go traditional stuff

48:41

or just like. All. Existing in

48:43

a in a place together? Yeah, yeah,

48:45

it's part of the like. You know

48:47

you're You're rebuilding this this community. It.

48:50

In. This intentional way. As inducing

48:52

you said the book. Ends

48:55

feeling hopeful rather than.

48:58

Pessimistic. Given that did, There's

49:00

people with guns and it's violent. and

49:02

yeah, it's It's mostly about. It's

49:04

mostly about the characters that we've met

49:06

like maybe this the people in this

49:09

family are gonna all all me and

49:11

get together and and realize that they're

49:13

all kind of related to each other

49:15

and them and something new will be

49:17

built from this this bad thing. Okay,

49:19

I'm that's this, really that doesn't I?

49:22

I am curious what is explored in

49:24

the in the sequel block. I assume

49:26

it's at least some of the stuff

49:28

because I think that the book cover

49:30

of the sequel. Looks like his

49:32

colleague bullet holes in his. I've gotta imagine

49:34

that. Okay, so the sequel,

49:37

Wandering Stars according to Penguin

49:39

Random House A.com delivers a

49:41

masterful faultless. The Quote delivers

49:43

a masterful follow up to

49:45

is already classic first novel.

49:47

Extending his constellation of narratives

49:49

into the past and future,

49:51

Terry Orange traces the legacies

49:54

of the Sand Creek Massacre

49:56

of Eighteen Sixty Four and

49:58

the Carlyle Indian in. History

50:00

of school through three generations of

50:02

a family in a story that

50:04

is by turned shattering in wondrous.

50:06

I think that is that Carlisle

50:08

School might be. In.

50:11

P A I think

50:13

tomorrow I'll pm Pennsylvania.

50:16

Out I've I've heard about that. Schools

50:18

like a number of different vectors in

50:21

terms of like. They.

50:23

Had sports programs but it's also part

50:25

of the legacy of with I think

50:27

that's probably wherever like podcast. My first

50:29

heard about the school because I certainly

50:31

wasn't part about it in school like

50:33

I probably should have been. I'm. Into.

50:36

It's part of the legacy of you know, Schools.

50:38

That were set up to. A.

50:41

Strip Native people from their

50:43

own societies of course, But.

50:49

Because you know than does becomes a part

50:51

of. Native. History. I'm

50:53

so yeah. I would.

50:55

I wonder. They.

50:58

Does not sound like this book aside

51:01

from what he did in the earlier

51:03

essays is like actively engaging with other

51:05

time periods other than whatever the you

51:08

know characters my be carrying random their

51:10

heads re know another actually dovetails with

51:12

something from there. There's a little Q

51:14

and a at the end of the

51:17

end of the books utter where he

51:19

talks a little bit about this and

51:21

specifically sagging about. The.

51:24

It You know those. Sometimes.

51:26

You read these books that have these

51:28

que an A's as like is this

51:30

author like interviewing themselves or sir her

51:33

gal of their a couple? are you

51:35

so cool Tommy losers' leader A couple

51:37

of questions were Tommy Oranges like and

51:39

I don't care they had. Do you

51:41

have a favorite character from the book

51:43

Tommy Orange Know. Look

51:46

at that feel Any real world. I

51:48

only got a publisher like we need

51:51

to interview this guy. He's so smart

51:53

and he is like I don't care

51:55

who. Doesn't. Babies Eleven Answer than why? Included

51:57

in the to Do with you and it.

52:00

What I mean I guess I guess

52:02

we're talking about it. Are we? I

52:04

love it? So, but Ah, assent to

52:06

they're all his favorite. Your cultural references.

52:09

The this is the unnamed interviewer. The

52:11

may or may not be Tommy Orange.

52:13

Cultural references span across time, geography, in

52:15

class, from what might be considered a

52:17

lead us to pop culture and everything

52:20

in between. Ah, was this a conscientious

52:22

choice? Or if so, why. Tommy

52:25

Or and says I wanted to write characters

52:27

who are is contemporary as possible. So much

52:29

of what is written about Native Americans as

52:31

an historical or stereotypical terms. So I very

52:33

much wanted to write modern native characters who

52:36

transcend and transgress what has been written by

52:38

natives. a non natives who feels represent native

52:40

people as living now as relevant. So.

52:43

That and and this is and this.

52:45

he's big, he's bring this up, he

52:47

mentions at least two or three times.

52:49

you know, the old add with the.

52:52

Other than native Americans who is crying

52:54

about yeah garbage alongside the highway he

52:56

brings up like a number of times

52:58

as like agree We've got like the

53:01

test pattern guy and the the litter

53:03

crying guy and that's kind of. Were

53:06

a lot of native representation in pop

53:08

culture as stuck for a long. If

53:10

it's it's I, just those two and

53:12

then it's westerns, right? He gets his.

53:15

Yeah. You got to have one character

53:17

who's like yeah that Johnny Depp movie

53:19

oh my god is bad but something

53:22

about watching him fail makes me happy

53:24

with was basically what the characters are.

53:26

Still can't believe he got to make

53:29

that Lone Ranger movie still large parts

53:31

of his career. I wish I didn't

53:33

exist Back Hippel I I can you

53:36

believe that movie exists. Yeah,

53:38

everyone agreed on how bad it wasn't so many ways,

53:41

but as excited to see it there, something about seeing

53:43

Jai that sale so badly that gives me strength. Again,

53:47

feels like a maybe Tommy Orange peeking

53:49

through one of the after sisters the

53:51

villains. It's as if is that later

53:53

L A Z V The Contemporary Nuts

53:55

and the lack of like yeah for

53:57

sure interacting with like a. A

54:00

more historical time period is very much

54:02

very much intentional. I think a lot

54:04

of why the book feels fresh in

54:06

a way that it that it does

54:08

well edited. It's not that aims near

54:10

people aren't in danger of being like

54:12

overrepresented in media but to the extent

54:14

that we have representation it does not

54:16

explore the specific space as much as

54:18

I don't think it's know you're exactly

54:20

right and it explains to me why

54:23

he like fire walled off the history.

54:25

Perspective. In a non fiction

54:27

voice at the front of a book like

54:29

that don't make that choice wake clear to

54:32

me fan and also didn't follow up where

54:34

was was more interested and yeah but the

54:36

history and he he said it again in

54:38

the queue and a with himself or whoever

54:40

you. See a

54:42

guess I'm he says you know I'd I

54:45

didn't plan put this book as a as

54:47

like a series or I didn't like right

54:49

it with me and mind assist I'd started

54:51

like an idea for a follow up occurred

54:53

to me and I was just. The just

54:56

was easy to write Nick: Yeah, I start

54:58

working on it and here we are. Yeah,

55:00

was it. He's also someone who sounds like

55:02

he came to. Eat. He

55:04

says he even came to does Being a

55:07

fan of literature like leader in his life,

55:09

relatives and other authors that he knows, I'm

55:11

not surprised that he does kind of like.

55:14

Stumbled. Into well I mean this is

55:16

where I'm is where my head that like let

55:18

me stay here and and follow this. Connection.

55:22

I. Was reading about the. Tests.

55:26

That. The tv tests art

55:28

little bit I went to

55:30

was it was this. Museum.

55:33

Website I went to. Some

55:36

like Broadcast Museum website in

55:38

Rhode Island. V.

55:42

Oh God The Museum of Broadcast Technology

55:44

and they this this this artist who

55:47

we don't know anything about their the

55:49

name is does com Brooks. In

55:52

this article. Claims. That everything

55:54

about that test images like meant to.

55:58

Has like a very specific technical function. yeah

56:01

I'd I'd read that about that has pattern

56:03

to where you're like. You. Know you've

56:05

got the the. Way

56:07

that the lines are arranged in the

56:09

fact of their horizontal and vertical to

56:11

horizontal vertical lines and that yeah and

56:14

like the number zero in the white

56:16

feathers are like men to do contrast

56:18

and ask all sorts of interesting stuff

56:20

but their genitals is It doesn't make

56:22

it not like on. It

56:24

couldn't see things very typical the takes like

56:27

it doesn't make it not a we're decision

56:29

but it is interesting to read about the

56:31

wise of. Like

56:33

why the images is. If

56:37

not why they chose like a why

56:39

they didn't stereotype as native person at

56:41

just why like it needed to exists

56:43

as an image in the first place

56:45

because it all goes way in the

56:47

sixties one some what he's doing color

56:50

programming and doing round the clock programming

56:52

anyway it was a thing where like

56:54

at the end of the day tv

56:56

networks be like see you tomorrow we

56:58

just went off just went away and

57:00

they would engineers would throw up you

57:03

know this image of and the various

57:05

reasons of it. To. Make sure

57:07

that. What? They were broadcasting

57:09

or you know on your television like

57:11

looks the way was supposed to look.

57:13

So technology was so new. So.

57:15

Like yeah the fact that it the fact

57:18

that there was a need for an image

57:20

is interesting. The fact that it was this

57:22

image of particular is. Interesting.

57:24

With a capital I think is interesting

57:26

is into with a question what else?

57:28

So yeah well. it sounds like you

57:30

enjoyed the book like I'm it it.

57:32

I know, like I'm probably doing the

57:34

the plot. A little bit of a

57:37

disservice, but I don't think that the

57:39

plot is what. It's.

57:42

For. The

57:45

It's It's first and foremost about.

57:47

Characters and they'll little bit about

57:49

structure. Ah, I'm you

57:52

know, but no, the reviews were like. This

57:54

is a gripping yarn. This is a yeah

57:56

for real or yeah no, it's a real

57:58

page turner know and it is a. Turbo

58:00

only insofar as like most of

58:02

these characters interesting new and are

58:04

hear more from them yeah yeah

58:06

or about them yet some bf.

58:09

Group. Or things are telling

58:11

me about. they're they're saying. I don't know

58:13

how to say the name of the book.

58:16

Did the mean? I guess if you're. If.

58:18

The phrases there is no there there than

58:21

the way resource to say it is. They're

58:23

They're not. They're. They're not. They're

58:25

They're like in a consoling way. Yeah,

58:28

Ok there there. There. There.

58:31

Was. Covering

58:33

up of out. By the end of the episode he

58:35

has why we got he hears here. For.

58:39

This An email Email Overdue. Pottage Email

58:42

That com will be glad to read

58:44

it. Find. Us. On. Line

58:46

at overdue Pods are online. That

58:48

is as yeah social media. That's

58:50

where most people are online. were

58:52

mostly on Instagram and Blue Sky.

58:54

Find us there at Overdue Pod.

58:57

Ah Our theme song is composed

58:59

by Nick Loran. Just gonna say

59:01

that Andrew of folks are know

59:03

more about the show. Where do

59:05

they go? Over to Bug as.com

59:07

their internet website. We have our

59:09

schedule kitten to the end of

59:11

March already aren't we? Yeah we

59:13

are. Else while how time go

59:15

Ah. We also have a link

59:17

up there to our p three on

59:20

project that's Petri on.com/overdue Pod it's you

59:22

can support the so financially put our

59:24

kids in school. Get

59:28

bonus absurd early. get access to

59:30

our discord community. I'm.

59:32

The mother. Fun stuff, you to sit on

59:35

some both episodes early. It'll to hear

59:37

hour long read episodes on Emily Wilson's

59:39

translation of Homers The Iliad we just

59:41

posted. i think we'd the we just

59:43

post on. The. The

59:45

oath we recorded the other day. The yeah

59:47

and so so what? Okay, what's happening on

59:50

the Mean feed? So by the time this

59:52

episode is up, Our February

59:54

bonus episode will finally be on Mean

59:56

Feat If you want to join us

59:58

for those streams guy. The Patron guardian

1:00:00

guy peed on such a pot at

1:00:02

the end of this month. There will

1:00:05

also be our some some of the

1:00:07

Elite I don't remember which episodes. maybe

1:00:09

it's absurd. three and four of our

1:00:11

ill his rotted a website says upset

1:00:13

three and four perfect so you can

1:00:15

hear those but if you wanted to

1:00:17

listen them in order because you're reading

1:00:19

on with as you should go to

1:00:21

Patron or comes over pot. Ah that's

1:00:23

homework next week. By. Club.

1:00:27

Who I can not supposed to talk about.

1:00:29

I can't wait to. Can't wait to be

1:00:31

to middle aged white guys with opinions about

1:00:33

fight club list. Can't wait for that to

1:00:36

to manifest. That has been like twenty five

1:00:38

years since I movie came out. is time

1:00:40

to talk about it. No one talked about

1:00:42

melons. none. None of people are talking about

1:00:45

this movie. What? We're talking about the book

1:00:47

or the book. You know awesome

1:00:49

movie I am a real as to do

1:00:51

with a chinese ending of the all we

1:00:53

we will talk about it actually yeah well.

1:00:56

Even though we're not the person. They're.

1:01:00

Going to kick us our club

1:01:03

or that's the you what? It's

1:01:05

worth it to said bring using

1:01:07

scenario this Fresh and fun funky,

1:01:09

fresh commentary on the book Fight

1:01:11

Club. Higher.

1:01:13

By thank you for listening to our pockets for

1:01:16

another week! Look. At you Good

1:01:18

Job. You're. The real hero

1:01:20

I'm a still in till we say

1:01:22

in actually please try to be happy.

1:01:54

That was a hit on podcast.