0:00

Page Ninety Four A private eye

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poke cast. Hello and welcome

0:04

to another episode of Page Ninety Four. My

0:06

name's Andrea from To marry of I'm Here

0:09

and the Private Office joined by Helen, Louis,

0:11

Adam Mcqueen and Ian Hislop. Normally this is

0:13

it's a light show Emirates talk about the

0:15

news and and make it a bit funny

0:18

today's going to slightly different kind of show

0:20

I'm afraid because. There. Are

0:22

ten years to save the West? Yeah,

0:26

right. Yeah and this is the finding

0:28

of a new book by very respected

0:31

parliamentarian. And mp for

0:33

North West Norfolk. Some

0:35

partner? Fuck yeah. Now Liz truss

0:37

yes. And the books been serialized

0:39

in the Mail in the Mail

0:41

on Sunday, and it's pretty shocking

0:44

hearing from in both At Twenty

0:46

Thirty four, not long. Before.

0:49

We hit see it. Might. Not hopefully

0:51

be anticipated Is really weird about it is I

0:53

wouldn't put any unit of time in the headline

0:55

if I were her. Given that the main thing

0:57

she's known. For. His whenever it's Forty nine. Debbie

0:59

have to be prime minister. That

1:02

was resuming, they rejected title. Yeah, we're

1:04

at a disadvantage because it's not. It's

1:06

heavily embargoed, that's have Mets, the Kryptonite

1:08

and the that we talking. Website.

1:10

Is the best bits The. Lives

1:13

that cater a bought the rest of it's like we've

1:15

We've had three days of a serialization so far in

1:17

the Mail In the Mail on Sunday. There's not a

1:20

lot about Saving the West in their it does seem

1:22

to be largely concentrating on those other those fourteen on

1:24

day is, doesn't it? Yeah, I presume that bless

1:26

the people who do the sterilizations that the melee.

1:28

When I no one cares about what I

1:30

mean, that's just over as a service to

1:32

listeners for those of you who who who

1:35

who don't have a password to the beyond

1:37

the new new mail plus paywall a big

1:39

mess we summarize and last line of Today

1:41

serialization speaking on know All on Monday wish

1:43

to says. Things. Have

1:45

not worked out. As I had

1:48

hoped. Now that

1:50

is a good talking to

1:52

a public song. My.

1:55

Recollection of what we are we we

1:57

know that possibly Dylan or someone left

1:59

please in the Danny yeah this there

2:01

was no gold wallpaper and stole the

2:03

go boop with any theoretical will say

2:05

that she couldn't get her account a

2:07

delivered to number Ten Downing Street and

2:09

that was an outrage at own using

2:11

when her slogans had been delivered never

2:13

had my live us my but also

2:15

the fact that or forbids as a

2:17

dog with Boris of so they ordered

2:19

some new stuff from John Lewis but

2:21

it wasn't delivered and times worse off

2:23

was talking about it is it's so

2:25

presumably there was a delivery food access

2:27

had to take delivery of Foreign office.

2:30

Max is confined but have furthered sir I. Think

2:32

that the I see that base is such a middle class

2:34

problem that you're not getting a delivery. Than that for

2:36

you think that the West is doomed, Cisco

2:38

that is a kid isn't a serious matter.

2:40

If John Lewis com come up with stuff

2:42

and seven weeks that is quite a long

2:44

time you know unless is really bespoke erm

2:47

upholstery that are needing in. I'm not just

2:49

get back in all of John Lewis stuff

2:51

that terrorism and rejected when the non goal

2:53

juri I buy some and I am enough

2:55

for somebody said install. Read somewhere that the

2:57

poor, the poor local chapter of of those

2:59

who have to deal with this array of

3:01

return refunds not deliveries. This is the problem

3:03

with the Conservatives in the last decade. Or

3:06

so there's no consistency. Not of

3:08

taste homeless and so do we.

3:10

locked or lose to ensure a

3:12

make your mind off. The other

3:14

that I live with the sense that M Forests and Harry

3:16

had taken all the stuff with them. I thought i bet

3:18

they when they get hotels I bet they take every last

3:21

bit is Sam. To sign up the like.

3:25

A Sunlight Cameron's who says he was climbing

3:27

frame That kids climbing frame in the Golden

3:29

A damning Streets and he was used than

3:31

by Boris and carries children mimics opening. I'm

3:33

excited sitting that even so I thought of

3:35

that series of much as fifteen down and

3:37

free I just wonder see a case me

3:39

in a lighter moments when out and some

3:41

but up to the self of in public

3:43

over the wall Soren was just an image

3:45

or lot of service make an impact on

3:47

the sofa. Things running around with see such

3:49

all strikes me as as as tittle tattle.

3:51

Yeah it is well as the stuff that

3:54

she can do again as American conferences about

3:56

saving the West has not seen a little.

3:58

I will will the this. The thing is,

4:00

lots of it, I mean is particularly the

4:03

Today which deals with the final fortnight of

4:05

the previous X Have to divide it up.

4:07

obviously this is from the six to the

4:09

twentieth of October right at the first. I

4:12

was about it in a Death of the

4:14

Queen and can get him over the. The.

4:17

The list of people blamed his extraordinary

4:19

site I talked about Bank of England's

4:21

Ob are Joe Biden but cause the

4:24

clotting backbench Tory mps, our culture of

4:26

leaking more bank officials cause a again

4:28

treasurer establishment Jeremy Hunt to see Maids

4:30

sounds learned that mode that he's a

4:33

treasury meant his corpse. ah sort of

4:35

Bradman And and then she eventually says

4:37

she nearly blinds her husband at one

4:40

point or which isn't very very of

4:42

that does the list include least Austin's

4:44

any point it doesn't look she manages

4:46

to towards. The variant say well I

4:48

have have managed to avoid an economic

4:51

meltdown his without at any point suggesting

4:53

who. You. Know my to take that off.

4:55

So it's essentially the political philosophy psyche isn't is he

4:57

was a mess up on the way for it. Since.

5:00

See it says him at she's been into the by the

5:02

spectator know about the pensions and they make that it risk

5:04

of a pensions it's base which he says is the thing

5:06

that really tank them any budget. She said in.

5:08

Retrospect, If I if I had seen the iceberg

5:10

I wouldn't say towards it. And it's iss a

5:12

you are. You're creeping towards us. remember

5:14

they said that he might been charged

5:16

hundred for. Doubtless some private are revealed

5:19

that I'm she had been the captain

5:21

of the Titanic at least six times

5:23

and we did endless reputations of whether

5:25

it was the iceberg asked. Certain I

5:27

have had similar is brilliant news that

5:30

she's She's beginning beginning to move toward

5:32

some sort of self knowledge by the

5:34

Iri and any to spend a bit

5:36

too much time with Steve Bannon and

5:38

the kind of American kicks because a

5:41

lot of the is very deep state.

5:43

Says he complains about the fast health is a budget.

5:45

Responsibility which was given that role of independently

5:47

marking the homework by by another Tory by

5:49

George Osborne. they want people to banks They

5:52

went on side and into the Bank of

5:54

England also not phishing sites and she moans

5:56

a pretty bad that. they weren't enough commentators

5:58

it go on the airwaves and supporter. Really

6:01

interesting, that's something you also heard a lot about from

6:03

the Corbyn camp, right, that there was just, there were

6:05

not enough people who would go on TV and make

6:07

that case. Do you get to choose

6:09

exactly which institutions exist if you become Prime Minister?

6:12

Not really. You know, you can't pick and choose,

6:14

you can't say, well, the OBR just won't apply

6:16

to me. Right, it's a sort of

6:18

Tinkerbell theory of politics where you just think, if people just

6:20

believed in what I'm doing hard enough, then it would

6:22

all be fine. And I think, you know, that's,

6:24

she was trying to do something, it was unorthodox,

6:26

fine. And it might, I say the same thing

6:28

about Brexit. But it was also the fact that

6:30

she just front-loaded a huge amount of tax cuts

6:32

that even her own party didn't want, you know,

6:34

the cut to the 45p rate

6:36

of tax. That was a Tory revolution. Labour, if

6:39

you remember during that entire time, were just basically

6:41

kind of like, well, we'll just stand back, let

6:43

this one happen, find that amongst yourselves, lads. They

6:45

didn't really have to do a lot of opposition

6:47

to Liz Truss because she was, it was a

6:49

Tory party, we did a very good job of that

6:51

already. My worry is that former

6:54

prime ministers never disappear now. I mean,

6:57

you don't have to put them in the

6:59

cabinet as far as the Secretary of the

7:01

State, that's just asking for them to still

7:03

be around. But there is a sense in

7:05

which you can now go fail and hang

7:07

around and you're still an unexploded bomb. And

7:09

she gets an enormous amount of coverage. I

7:11

mean, we're talking about her, which is probably

7:13

reprehensible. But that is because people are still

7:15

saying, well, I mean, she's not all bad,

7:17

is she? I have terrible news

7:19

for you, which is that although her former

7:23

speechwriter, Aysa Bennett, said she's not

7:25

going to make a comeback at the weekend. In

7:27

her interview, apparently with Ian Dale, which will be online

7:29

by the time people hear this, she repeatedly refuses

7:31

to deny that she's going to make a comeback.

7:33

So you're right, there is a problem that both

7:35

she and Boris Johnson are both hanging around the

7:38

margins of American conferences going, maybe I could

7:40

do it again, maybe I could have another go, this

7:42

second time's the charm. And Boris actually has

7:44

to criticise Cameron as well. He's now an

7:46

ex-prime minister criticising an ex-prime minister because he's

7:48

nearly come back already. I Think what you're

7:50

really saying is what we could do is

7:53

a prolonged period of salt like we got

7:55

from Edward Heath, isn't it? Just Kind of

7:57

sit on the back bench, glowering at Mrs.

7:59

Atchafin. Twenty you can sit little to

8:01

do that. Yeah it is it because

8:04

the financial opportunities for x prime ministers

8:06

so much bigger than they used to

8:08

be. Because I see if I mean

8:10

if I think people like has he's.

8:12

Worried. Automated of an extent as it

8:14

were you probably gulf of the bit of maybe

8:17

financial stuff, my view, bit of charity stuff and

8:19

then tidy by. broke the mold and started the

8:21

Institute. A new to tell me Juri Mrs. Thatcher

8:23

when often was a lobbyist for British American Tobacco

8:26

and teammates absolute fortune. Okay I see what Papa

8:28

and everyone was I was is a backseat driver.

8:30

She's interfering with the major, but she's cheated on

8:32

a bulletin moments and then come in and and

8:34

make them pretty devastating. When she did, she was

8:37

not doing a column for the Daily Mail every

8:39

Saturday, Missionary Tennessee, the character of x Prime Ministers

8:41

and this. In that three, The Main has basically

8:43

been a kind of been i'm just a backbench

8:45

Mp work at age ten, or since he's not

8:47

stepping down the the next election of his Gordon

8:49

Brown popped up again this week. He's basically. Devoted

8:51

his pace premiership life. Tip: Complaining about

8:53

child poverty and not taking huge amounts

8:55

of money from Paypal. Sell it

8:57

is. It is possible. Should you be able to

9:00

get over your ego and desire for attention of

9:02

money in order to have a really useful pace

9:04

Permissive: Nice. I. Can't explain. See

9:06

what is that that is not the corset, distress

9:08

or something? Have chosen. It's. A military

9:10

success as much as region my favorite from the

9:13

Mistress book is literally is premised. the one thing

9:15

the seems with to seems really pleased by in

9:17

a time in Downing Street which is when she

9:19

was some when she was peering at the Tory

9:21

Party conference and as she says she was in

9:24

the conference center and dumped it was his conference

9:26

was one of a few occasions when my daughter's

9:28

Francis and Liberties were able to join us. They

9:30

were smuggled in under the guise of being Wells

9:32

young conservatives. Little did the lobby journalists getting into

9:35

the list with Rosie and Molly from Cardiff North

9:37

know that they were my daughter's incognito. Boxes

9:41

story to see since he was high see

9:43

primitivism. It's a good the. Prime

9:46

minister's daughter citizen same venue. assert ourselves because

9:48

it's we're dealing with ritzy Francisco of other

9:50

for offering forces. Isis is your life to

9:52

have no kids at the conference. Add to

9:55

this that's fine. Saw thought that was the

9:57

but that he will. Not a problem with

9:59

his. Is it just that the the desire

10:01

to be deceitful listens to stop? Stop them

10:03

off with it and you have to just

10:05

make something up as you are paying. The

10:07

best time you had was when he told

10:09

journalists something that will surprise us as this

10:11

isn't a very funny about the Fat The

10:13

By See and George Osborne have a daughter

10:16

called Liberty There was always in Vogue and

10:18

Mr. the Two thousands if you're in them

10:20

I imagine. This probably even as little. Baby.

10:22

brag, you know, Or something like

10:24

necessity. You

10:26

met my daughter. Market forces a specific benefit

10:28

of. Globe.

10:36

For now has come to story which

10:38

again has has historical residents but it's

10:40

also very of the now. Or. For

10:42

com of stuff we like to provide

10:45

on his podcast as the is context

10:47

but also you know news. So this

10:49

is about honey trapping in Westminster and

10:51

it's about sexual politics because obviously the

10:53

story about Westminster Abbey trapping has been

10:56

enormous. Various M P's getting fruity messages

10:58

from fruit young people and quickly set

11:00

me back photos of the genitals and

11:02

the it's happened at the same week

11:04

that we found out that Harold Wilson.

11:07

Friend. Of the podcast A had an

11:09

affair but not with the person ever

11:11

thought he was having an affair with.

11:13

What's his is terribly exciting stuff and

11:15

out of your the long standing historian

11:17

of awfully A wasn't as the plan

11:19

pounded his pocket he really was pleased

11:21

to see those faces the news that's

11:23

a that that that someone in Dynasty

11:25

was boat was feeling before white heat

11:27

of the technological revolution from How Wilson

11:29

Harper But I won't be horrible as

11:31

as rumors reminiscing athletes as I see

11:34

now I'm A I don't on him

11:36

and maybe the maybe polaroids. involved we do

11:38

they would been given a bit said ear an

11:40

older technology a that point but some know the

11:42

only question was not monsieur williams like if open

11:44

to whoever won or lost people assumed that on

11:46

he was having if i were but in fact

11:48

johnny hewlett davis who i'm is i'm fairly common

11:50

known sega adequate but the look back through these

11:53

the i back catalogue seems to be mentioned in

11:55

the sixties or seventies not never cropped up at

11:57

all he was deputy press secretary to a joe

11:59

haden who did feature a lot in Private Eye

12:01

over the years. And it was

12:03

he who popped up. He is now about a million

12:05

years old. And he

12:07

popped up last week to reveal, in the

12:10

last days in Downing Street, Harold

12:12

Wilson had indeed been taking great

12:15

happiness from an affair which he had with Janet

12:17

Hewlett-Davies. Why have we found this out now? Well,

12:19

this is an odd thing with Joe Haynes. Joe

12:22

Haynes and his pal Bernard Donahue also worked in

12:24

Downing Street under Harold Wilson. They sort of remember

12:26

stuff about every sort of 15 or 20 years.

12:29

They suddenly remember something else. And curiously, it's

12:31

never anything about the time they both spent

12:33

working for Robert Maxwell, about which their memories

12:36

are extremely hazy. But it's generally very sharp

12:38

on that period. It's

12:41

generally some revelations from down here.

12:43

I have to say, this is far from their

12:45

best revelation. I mean, 20 years ago, the pair

12:47

of them popped up and said that they'd actually

12:49

just remembered Harold Wilson's personal physician, Dr.

12:51

Jo Stone, offering to murder his right-hand

12:53

woman, Musia Falkender, because she was causing

12:56

such a nightmare for him in Downing

12:58

Street, and cover it up. Which,

13:00

you know, by the standards of political

13:02

scandals, he's kind of right up there.

13:04

I mean, that's real echoes of thought,

13:07

though. I'm always worried when you hear

13:09

another scandal. This is very like the

13:11

last one. And hearing this

13:13

one, if you remember, everyone assumed John

13:15

Major was having an affair with someone

13:17

else, which turned out not to be

13:19

true. And actually was having an affair

13:21

with Edwina Curry. So we

13:23

keep getting these patterns. And they always

13:26

arrive a long time afterwards, don't

13:28

they? Yes, yes, yes, years afterwards, not at the

13:30

time when they would have been particularly useful. And

13:32

with John Major, you have to say that one

13:35

probably would have been the end of his premiership,

13:37

because at the time he was, of course, pushing

13:39

his back to basics and Victorian values and all

13:41

sorts of his ministers and his MPs who happened

13:43

to resign all over the place from being caught

13:45

in bed with people. And Harold Wilson, we're talking

13:47

74, 76, it was still a kind of different

13:49

attitude to sexual politics, if you like,

13:51

in those days. I think it would have been would certainly been

13:54

problematic. He took legal action over a suggestion that

13:56

he was having an affair with Falkendorf, who was

13:58

he's kind of just explained for younger. reads as

14:00

kind of, not just his right-hand woman, she was

14:02

an extraordinary figure, she was kind of Dominic Cummings

14:04

and Aleister Campbell combined, she was an incredibly powerful

14:07

figure in that industry. But I've always

14:09

read about it, there's a slightly

14:11

odd sadomasistic overtone to the

14:13

way that she's just sort of weirdly controlled

14:15

him, right? Well, this is much more interesting

14:17

than the sexual stuff, is the actual power

14:20

dynamics of that relationship. She would call him

14:22

the C-word in front of other members of

14:24

staff and she would, at one point she

14:26

actually, and again all of this is coming

14:28

from previous revelations from Bernard Donahue, Jo Haynes,

14:30

keeping us entertained for decades now. But

14:33

at one point she stole a load

14:35

of government papers and locked them in

14:37

her garage and refused to give them

14:39

back to Wilson and he had to

14:41

enrol her brother to break

14:43

into her garage over the weekend and retrieve

14:45

these kind of red boxes for him. There

14:47

were just the most bizarre things going on.

14:50

It's quite hard because I wrote a screenplay

14:52

about Barbara Carlson's interview, Jo Haynes for it.

14:54

I remember he had this, as you say,

14:56

terrifically bitchy sense of like these grievances that he

14:58

was still nursing 50 years

15:00

on. But Barbara Carlson used

15:02

to flirt with Harold Wilson quite a lot and complained to

15:04

him about how the cabinet table

15:06

was sort of snagging her tights and passing him

15:08

little notes about her hosiery in the cabinet. And

15:11

it's quite hard to acknowledge the fact that one of the

15:13

reasons that Harold Wilson was kind of okay with

15:15

the strong women around him was that he quite

15:17

liked strong women in a slightly now eyebrow raising

15:20

kind of way, right? No, possibly. Lady Falkender

15:22

is now dead so we can finally stop hedging

15:24

these bets about, oh, did she have an affair?

15:26

I mean, she did. She really

15:28

did, didn't she? Oh, well, I mean, she

15:30

made the revelation to Mary Wilson, who's kind

15:33

of the forgotten figure in all this, Mrs

15:35

Wilson, a famous diarist for Private Eye for

15:37

many, many years. She said

15:39

to her at one point, I have

15:41

something to say to you. I had sexual relations

15:43

with your husband six times in 1956 and

15:46

it wasn't satisfactory, which is

15:48

just such an extraordinary step. What wasn't Mrs

15:51

Wilson supposed to say to her? Terribly sorry,

15:53

maybe it wasn't his best. You want another

15:55

go? I've got a TripAdvisor. former

16:01

Deputy Editor of this august publication rate

16:03

of screenplay for the BBC which

16:05

was then sued for making the

16:07

suggestion that there had been a relationship between the two

16:10

of them and it apparently will never be shown again

16:12

and she was sort of active legally

16:15

right up to the end Lady Porkindar

16:17

to stop anyone saying that she'd

16:19

had an affair with him. She

16:21

employed our favorite firm of solicitors Carter Farkt

16:23

who jumped down the throats of anyone who

16:25

suggested either right the affair or that she

16:27

had some hand in the lavender list which

16:29

was up until the point that Boris Johnson

16:31

did his resignation on us the most the

16:33

most scandalously crony and disgusting honors

16:35

list ever issued by a Prime Minister. I was

16:37

gonna say can you for again for our one

16:40

listener at the age of 40 please

16:42

remind them what the lavender list was and

16:44

why is it called that was it written on lavender note

16:46

paper? Well this is Joe Haynes again it's

16:48

always him he's our main source on all

16:51

of this claimed that it was written on

16:53

lavender note paper but when it

16:55

actually emerged it turned out to be a

16:57

shade that Mrs Haynes, Joe Haynes's wife said

16:59

no no no that's lilac dear so um

17:01

so we've been calling it the wrong thing

17:03

for all these years apparently but yes this

17:06

was the the list of cronies which was

17:08

drawn up when Harold Wilson suddenly resigned in

17:10

mysterious circumstances in which may or may not

17:12

be related to any of this in 1976

17:14

and it was written in Lady Porkindar's handwriting

17:17

although she always maintained at the instructions of Harold Wilson but

17:19

had an awful lot of friends of hers rather than his

17:21

on there including and then we you know this is where

17:23

we get into the really weirdness of it James

17:26

Goldsmith who at that point was

17:28

trying to sue private eye out of existence and had

17:30

been paying people to steal our rubbish some of which

17:33

subsequently turned up at number 10 and Harold

17:35

Wilson himself started talking around to political journalists

17:37

saying do you want the private eye address

17:40

book and trying to sell the names of

17:42

our contacts? This is how you react to

17:44

70s politics Abby that's that's

17:46

the noise people make what? Also

17:49

may or may not have been bankrolling

17:52

Jeremy Thorpe in his attempts to murder

17:54

his former gay lover Norman Scott who

17:56

may have been bankrolling him? Goldsmith maybe

17:58

Goldsmith yeah I I heard that

18:00

as Harold Will Smith as back mainly Jeremy Cawton and

18:02

I was like what was happening in the 70s? That's

18:04

right, and as someone who has actually written a novel

18:06

based on quite a lot of this stuff Beneath the

18:08

Streets, first of the Tommy Wildwood thrillers, all good bookshops

18:11

folks, number three coming next year. Um,

18:13

cut that bit. You can't, don't cut that bit.

18:15

Ha ha ha ha. So

18:17

any reason I'm here. Um, all of this

18:19

stuff, you are safe to

18:21

say now. Everyone involved is dead apart from Bernard Donahue

18:23

and Joe Haynes who are probably a bit like Rupert

18:25

Murdoch with wives, have several revelations ahead of them a

18:28

few years down the line. And what I'm trying to

18:30

remember about them is that whatever you want

18:32

to say about them, just repeating

18:34

that they both work for Robert Maxwell,

18:38

I think is sufficiently defamatory. To

18:42

end any further

18:44

reliance on their testimony, the

18:46

reason that when Adam

18:48

recounts these just unbelievable stories of

18:51

corruption and sexual malpractice and lunacy

18:53

from the 70s, it

18:55

is partly so that when younger

18:57

listeners say, well politics has never been

18:59

as bad as it is now. And

19:02

I mean, the, the honest system, honestly,

19:04

I mean, the honest system under Wilson

19:06

was about as bad as it gets.

19:08

And Lady Falkender, Lady Slag Heap, as

19:10

she was known, after corrupt deal with

19:12

a group with a bunch of Slag

19:14

Heaps, which she'd bought with some friends

19:16

of hers. I mean, corruption is not

19:18

new. Yeah. As far as we know, S.A.V. has

19:20

not had a great day in shot at any

19:22

point, just to make that clear for the record.

19:24

Absolutely. And if you want to know what a

19:26

Slag Heap is, we can't, we'll put it in

19:28

the notes of the show, but it's, it's

19:31

a thing from the 70s. It is sort

19:33

of a thing from the 70s. Yeah. I

19:36

mean, we have some pretty amazing scandals going

19:38

on of our own, don't we, Andy? And

19:40

we're coming to William Bragg and the Honey

19:42

Trap. Honey Trap, Honey Fish. So spearfishing

19:45

with a PH is a version of fishing, which is

19:47

where you just try and get information out of people.

19:49

But it's called spearfishing because it's targeted. So you go

19:51

to people and you... I

19:53

thought it was just little blackmailing pictures of their

19:56

spears. That was an entire speech. Right. Okay. You

19:58

were like, no, I'm glad to... to

20:00

deter you from that interpretation. No, it's

20:02

because you are particularly over WhatsApp. If

20:04

you send somebody a message that implies

20:06

that you've already met them, lots

20:09

of MPs and people working in politics receive messages

20:11

like that all the time. And

20:13

so the theory is that you just win people's trust

20:15

by saying, because this is what happened in the

20:17

William Rad case, the classic approach from Abby or

20:19

Charlie, as they were known, was like, oh, didn't

20:21

we meet at conference? Or like, have you been

20:23

up to these days? And implying some kind of

20:26

prior connection between them. And apparently, because MPs have

20:28

got a problem, two messages later,

20:30

they're sending dick pics. I don't understand the

20:32

intervening steps, but there we go. Yeah,

20:35

I mean, Catlin Morin did make

20:37

a very good point about this, which

20:39

is that no female parliamentarian ever

20:41

would get a message saying, can

20:44

I see some photos of your private parts? Oh,

20:46

yes, great, of course, thank God you asked, yes.

20:50

So there's something in there. And

20:52

yeah, I mean, William Rag is

20:54

a senior, well, we

20:56

can say senior, he's my age. So

20:59

he's junior then? Yeah. Oh, yeah, but he was-

21:01

A young whippersnapper. Tory whippersnapper. He was the chair

21:03

of select committees, and he was part of the

21:05

common sense group of MPs. So he was, yeah,

21:07

I know. I didn't have anybody. The

21:10

jokes indeed do right, and he'd rather not have gotten

21:12

that. But he, the really sad thing, I think, about

21:14

what happened to him is that he essentially sold out all his

21:17

colleagues, and that's why I don't think he could survive keeping

21:19

the Tory whip. Was that after he did send

21:21

some of these photos, and there was some suspicion

21:23

about other things, he said, they had something

21:25

on me. He then gave people the

21:28

details that then allowed them to do more fishing

21:30

of other people, and that's what kind of led

21:32

him to get isolated. And the interesting thing about that

21:34

is that it seemed to be

21:36

on a bit of a knife edge for

21:39

several days, and that slightly does show you

21:41

how much things have changed, or how much

21:43

the exceptions of this kind of sexual communication

21:45

has altered, because lots of MPs,

21:47

I think Jeremy Hunt stuck up him and

21:49

said he's been really brave to talk about how

21:52

mortified he is about this, and how foolish he

21:54

feels like he's been. And

21:56

then we'll dial them out, who wouldn't say it's

21:58

time for him to go. Hence

22:01

the eye cover about getting Willie

22:03

out, which was just irresistible like

22:05

all the other jokes. But

22:08

now we're in a position where it's

22:10

acceptable for him to represent

22:13

his constituents, but it

22:15

is no longer acceptable for him to sit

22:17

on, I mean, the select committees, which are

22:19

about behaviour in public life.

22:21

I mean, this is what those committees

22:23

are for. And up

22:25

to that point, quite a lot of conservatives were

22:27

saying, no, no, he hasn't done anything, you know,

22:29

leave him alone, this is private life, and for

22:31

sake, you know, all the usual stuff

22:34

that is wheeled out. They've all done it too.

22:37

I think that's the thing, isn't it? When you look at

22:39

the machine number of people who've been convicted of crimes

22:42

from MPs, we are at the moment

22:45

selecting a genuine, much higher than the general

22:47

rate in the population of people who've got

22:49

very bad risk taking behaviours. The one thing

22:51

I would say about this is we don't

22:53

know exactly who's behind this. It doesn't seem

22:55

to be state sponsored. But there

22:57

is a concurrent problem, particularly over WhatsApp

23:00

and messaging services of state sponsored

23:02

actors. So Israel makes a

23:04

spyware software called Pegasus, which it has

23:06

now restricted the sales of, but

23:08

was being used potentially by the UAE. For

23:12

example, if you remember the very big divorce case

23:14

of Princess Heya and the shake,

23:16

that they were trying to infiltrate senior phones

23:19

in the Foreign Office and potentially in Downing

23:21

Street. I've just got a BBC series, it's

23:23

all about messaging, and I interviewed Dominic Cummings, and he said he'd

23:25

had a similar approach. And I said, was it from a

23:27

kind of high dom, I'm a hot girl in your

23:29

area? And he said, no, it wasn't a foxy Natasha,

23:31

as he put it. He said it was the other

23:33

kind. It was someone pretending to be a PPS, the Personal Private

23:36

Secretary, like a bag carrier for

23:38

Boris Johnson, spoofing that

23:40

phone number, basically. And of course,

23:42

this is the thing. So much government communication now

23:44

happens on these messaging services. If

23:46

you get a message on your phone tomorrow that it looks like

23:49

it's from me, can you be absolutely sure it

23:51

is from me? And I say, wow,

23:53

Andy, let's just repeat that joke you made about Ian.

23:58

And I think that's the thing. of trust

24:00

in these messaging apps that they assume that they

24:02

are from who they say they are. This

24:05

is sort of much more common I think. You don't actually need

24:07

to go in the dick pig route at all. No, Jeff

24:09

Bezos had an affair, he's now with Lauren

24:12

Sanchez, the woman that he was with, but the way that

24:14

that got exposed by the National Enquirer was that he was

24:16

sent a WhatsApp message with a link and

24:19

he clicked on it and he hired a

24:21

private consulting firm who traced it back to Saudi Arabia.

24:23

Now they deny it, but

24:25

this is absolutely in every state in the

24:27

world, including lots of states that are hostile

24:30

to Britain do have technologies like this that

24:32

are all about infiltrating phones and most of

24:34

them, one of the things that they do

24:36

is they try and turn your phone essentially into

24:38

a listening device. So now you have bugged yourself,

24:41

right? You are now carrying the bug that

24:43

records all of your conversations around with you

24:45

all the time into the loo with you,

24:47

Andy, think about it, think about what these

24:49

spies are hearing. No, I put mine in

24:51

the pouch before I go to the loo

24:53

every time obviously, but in Bezos' case it

24:56

was because Bezos owned the American publication, which

24:58

published Khashoggi and then supported him. And the,

25:00

you know, one hates to say nice things

25:02

about Bezos, obviously, but the fact that he

25:04

absolutely stood by Khashoggi and then turned up

25:06

when he went to Istanbul and

25:08

he went stood outside in the protest, you

25:10

thought, well, this is good. I mean,

25:13

someone tried to fish him

25:15

and he was, he got totally

25:17

revealed, but he stood by his

25:19

original story. It's worked out quite

25:22

well in the sense that one, which is that he seemed now

25:24

very happy with the new woman who wore an extremely

25:26

eye popping dress to White House reception. Just treat

25:28

yourself to looking that one up. Quite

25:32

eye catching. Never put it that way. But they

25:35

seem very happy together. His former wife

25:37

has now got a new partner and

25:39

has given away billions to charity. Absolutely

25:41

billy. She said I'm, she got a

25:43

massive multi-billion pound divorce settlement, Mackenzie Scott,

25:45

and she's trying to disperse it all. Hang

25:47

on, what yours is hats off to NBA. Yeah.

25:49

So actually, and let's pose a moment to say

25:51

actually, the Saudis did a really good thing here.

25:54

It's really helped the world. Finally, I'm sticking up.

25:56

I'm so glad we saw that stake, by the

25:58

way, and to the Saudis. You know,

26:00

Yevgeny was right. I

26:03

do think it's really interesting though, you said essentially with

26:05

Jeff Bezos, he just sort of brazing it out and

26:07

said, you know, whatever, I don't care. And actually presumably

26:09

that's the way to go with these things, isn't it?

26:11

I mean, there are two solutions. One is don't send

26:13

your pictures of your Willy to anyone. The second

26:16

one I suppose is send pictures of your Willy to

26:18

everyone so then it can't be used to blackmail you.

26:20

I mean, maybe whack them at the top of your

26:22

constituency website. Yeah, there's a gag there because underneath it's

26:24

going to save the member for wherever. So

26:26

that will be good. But I mean, I was

26:28

thinking back, I'm going to go back 10 or

26:30

15 years now with Chris Bryan and his underpants.

26:32

I mean, I think it's even before Grindr, I

26:34

think it was on Gaidar or one of those

26:36

kind of really early dating sites. And the

26:40

main takeaway from that for a lot of women,

26:42

he stayed in Parliament, been extremely effective parliamentarian and

26:44

shared select committees. You're not the standards committee. And

26:47

the main takeaway from that for a lot of people I

26:49

think was, blimey, Chris Bryan looks good for a

26:51

bloke in his 50s, doesn't he? I

26:54

think that's the thing. I in some ways wonder if Chris

26:56

Bryan leaked that himself. If I look like that in my

26:58

50s, you better believe I've been leaking those photos. Good.

27:03

Well. Well, that's reduced everyone to

27:05

silence, quite rightly. The

27:07

way that scandals work has changed. And I think

27:09

William Ragg would have survived texting dick pics

27:12

to people, frankly. But what the

27:14

problem was was selling out his colleagues and that's what made

27:16

it untenable. And I think you're right,

27:18

the scandals have changed. It's a simple

27:20

affair. I think people now do not. I mean, obviously Boris

27:22

Johnson's entire career suggests that that is not

27:24

something that is now a hard stop on your political

27:26

career. And we've become

27:29

morelising about that. But

27:31

perhaps we've become morelising about kind of

27:33

other things about speech, for example, about

27:35

what politicians say and their hypocrisy and

27:38

their private life in other ways. Joe

27:41

Haynes clearly said, I

27:43

can reveal this even though it's incredibly late

27:45

in the day, because history needs to know

27:48

why Harold was in a good mood

27:50

during his last term of office. I

27:53

mean, historically, that's quite odd. And with

27:56

many things with Joe Haynes, I wish he admitted them

27:58

a bit earlier. The

28:00

whole of the Maxwell years might have

28:02

been very very different had he done

28:04

so but the argument presumably was that

28:06

in those days Wilson

28:08

had two affairs with people inside his

28:11

workplace both of whom people who worked

28:13

for him That wouldn't be

28:15

tolerated now either and the fact

28:17

that No one complained about it

28:19

and the very old men now who reveal it say

28:21

well It was all a bit of a laugh and

28:24

good for good for Harold It really cheered him up

28:26

because everyone else was so awful the

28:28

evidence is it didn't cheer his wife

28:30

up hugely Did it? No,

28:33

but you know, I mean people have got much more

28:35

moralizing about things that are perfectly legal like age gap

28:37

relationships Now whereas, you know, if you had someone in

28:39

their 60s dating a woman in their 20s Actually,

28:42

I think the in the 70s that would have

28:44

been kind of good on him and now people would

28:46

be very tough Scab it's just a scab at it.

28:48

So it's just I know a sexual morality just changes

28:50

Now do you say the power dynamics now would

28:53

be the real sticking point? Well

28:56

on that on a historical note We're maybe

28:58

making an assumption there because Mary Wilson and

29:00

Marcia Fongdon stayed very very good friends right

29:02

until the end of their lives Yeah, yeah,

29:04

but right right the way through I mean

29:06

Mary Wilson died I think last year the year before the age

29:08

of 101 Marcia Fongdon went a few years earlier in her 90s

29:12

And yeah, yeah great mates all the way

29:14

through so whatever whatever the sexual politics were

29:16

there They were maybe a bit more complicated

29:18

than we're assuming from outside What a lovely

29:21

story. Okay. Now, let's come on to one

29:23

really interesting final story, which is it can't

29:25

you know What in a funny way it

29:27

kind of ties together everything we've been talking

29:29

about Yeah, this

29:32

is a story that broke a couple of days

29:34

ago. Actually, there's no underpants in this at all

29:37

This is a story about Graham Stewart

29:39

who until two days ago was

29:41

the minister for net zero. He has

29:44

stepped down not because

29:46

of any Differences

29:48

of politics anything like that he stepped

29:50

down to defend his constituency seat at

29:52

the election whenever it may be and

29:55

he's joined a growing list

29:57

of ministerial quitters So

30:00

I think there are

30:02

nearly 10 now, ministers who've quit during

30:05

Sunak's first 18 months, just over. This

30:09

is a quit saying I

30:11

absolutely support Rishi Sunak, but

30:13

I couldn't possibly be in

30:16

his government and defend my own constituency.

30:19

Or even I couldn't be in his

30:21

government and face life generally. I'm out.

30:24

That's exactly it. So all three

30:26

of the most recent quotas, Graham Stewart,

30:28

James Heapey at Armed Forces, and Robert

30:31

Halfon, Education Skills and Apprenticeships, all

30:33

of them were supportive. I would

30:35

presume there's a little bit of a bump if you're

30:37

a minister standing in your constituency, people say, oh, he

30:39

or she is an important person. So, you know, I'd

30:41

be a bit more likely to vote for them. All

30:44

of them have stepped down. And Robert

30:47

Halfon's letter was really bizarre. He quoted

30:49

Gandalf in his resignation letter. I

30:52

love that resignation letter. He was about the one ring

30:54

you have to go on without me. Yeah. He also

30:56

said it is no longer my task to set things

30:58

to rights, which is what Gandalf says at some point

31:00

to think it might be Bilbo anyway. But

31:03

this is a really strange trend. And it's bizarre. And

31:05

it's not sort of taken off as a story, even

31:07

though it is a definite trend, because it doesn't fit

31:09

the narrative that everyone's after at the moment, which is

31:11

Kontori inviting and they all hate each other and they

31:13

all want to get rid of Rishi. And it's very,

31:16

very odd to quit with an

31:18

entirely supportive letter and no apparent reason is

31:20

bizarre. I think there is a reason.

31:22

And I think that reason is called a Koba, isn't it?

31:24

There are jobs for XMPs

31:26

and X ministers. It's a relatively limited pool

31:29

unless you're going to go and work at Butlins or

31:31

whatever it might be. So I think there

31:33

is a sense that people are already job punting.

31:36

So if I've stepped, if I'm Groms Stewart and I've

31:38

stepped down and I want to get a job working

31:40

in something that's related to my brief, something that Zero

31:42

Wish, I've got presumably six months

31:45

longer now or

31:47

rather my period where I won't be able to take lucrative work. But it

31:49

will be cut. Yeah. Where

31:51

I'll be able to go in on the day after the election. And I'll be able to do

31:53

my job. And

31:55

also you'll be updating your LinkedIn and getting your

31:57

CV ready and getting a jump on absolutely everybody.

32:00

else who is also going to be fighting for that

32:02

same set of jobs. That's really interesting because George Freeman,

32:04

I don't know if you remember his name, he was

32:06

a science minister until I think about

32:09

November and he left and

32:11

then a month or so ago he said well

32:13

one of the reasons that he quit was about

32:15

his mortgage which

32:17

had gone from £800 to £2,000 a month. I

32:19

can't remember that! How could this

32:22

have happened? Who was that? I can't

32:24

make it, I can't wait, I need to get my body out. He

32:27

had not worked out as I had hoped. He

32:31

basically was saying that on my ministerial salary, which

32:34

I think was about £120,000, he

32:37

would rather have second jobs which you can do

32:40

when you're an MP and which is I

32:42

think impossible when you're a minister.

32:46

So that was, it wasn't his whole reason, it

32:48

was the bit that got picked up from his

32:50

long sub-tech article explaining why he'd gone. Adam's

32:52

exactly right, that is a much more wounding way

32:54

to do it. If you say I'm resigning because

32:56

basically our economic policies have torched the landscape so

32:58

much that I, somebody's earning in the top 3%

33:02

of salaries in the country can no longer afford my

33:04

mortgage. I mean that's

33:06

actually about the worst thing you could say about the Tory

33:09

government of the last 14 years really. Well

33:11

the thing we've been taught by Boris Johnson and actually

33:13

by Jeremy Corbyn before him is actually resigning on principle

33:15

in an attempt to outsource your leader doesn't really work.

33:18

How many did it take? 58 people resigned

33:20

from Boris Johnson's government before he actually

33:23

really gave up the ghost and moved?

33:25

Yeah, well part of it, as part

33:27

of this I found a really great

33:29

graphic that was posted by the Institute

33:31

for Government and they had calculated ministerial

33:34

resignations over time for all the most

33:36

recent prime ministers. So it's quite nerdy

33:38

but it's really fascinating because

33:41

Blair and Brown, they kind of tick

33:43

up on average, Cameron very low number

33:45

of resignations, turns out that was actually

33:47

relatively stable in terms of ministers resigning.

33:50

Sounak is obviously right at the beginning of that so

33:52

he's, you know, at the time they posted this, he'd

33:54

been in for a year and he's had five and

33:56

now I think he's got ten which is on a

33:58

par with Boris Johnson. interestingly,

34:00

but Boris's line obviously goes

34:04

pretty high, pretty high, and then it

34:06

just climbs vertically, it just ascends this

34:08

ice face and goes right up, it's

34:10

fascinating. But it's also part of the fact that

34:12

whatever happens in the next election, even if the Tories do

34:14

better than you currently expect them to on current

34:16

polling, the party's going to look very

34:18

different. Because actually, one of the things I

34:20

think is interesting is people like Robert Halston, I think there's

34:23

a wide level of respect for across the House as

34:25

a campaigner on Soviet House, but Nick Gibb, who

34:27

was just a very solid junior minister in education,

34:29

you know, he's just one of those people who's

34:31

renowned as being kind of on top of the

34:33

brief, a lot of that people in that corpus

34:35

of the party have gone, I've seen enough,

34:37

much like the Queen after meeting this House,

34:39

they've seen enough. It's time to

34:42

leave. I wonder if

34:44

a cobra could put something in that said

34:47

you could only take a job of national importance,

34:49

such as say working in a care home, and

34:54

then we could fill a number of them

34:56

with, I don't want my care home

34:58

to be staffed by, no offence to them all.

35:00

That's a worst nightmare. We're not even in there

35:02

with dementia. I mean, the first question they ask

35:05

is who's the Prime Minister, which is almost impossible

35:07

to answer these days, because it's changing so often.

35:09

What Alan says about the number

35:12

of people changing over it is striking last election, I

35:14

think it was about 50 changed

35:16

over out of 650. Just on at

35:19

least 102 have already said they're

35:21

not standing again. And I

35:24

saw something online recently saying it's

35:26

about 1000 cumulative years of

35:28

experience that the House of Commons is

35:30

losing, which when you put it like

35:32

that is mind blowing. You know, it's

35:34

extraordinary. Harriet

35:36

Harmon is currently the mother of the House is leaving. She's been

35:39

in Parliament since 1982, so more

35:41

than 40 years. And there are a number of people in

35:43

that sense, Theresa May, who's been in

35:45

Parliament since 1992 is going, you know, there

35:47

is like a lot of the old grandees

35:49

of now, this is a watershed election. Do

35:51

you know that we're really to horrible statistic,

35:54

which is throughout the 20th century, more Labour MPs

35:56

used to die while they were still

35:58

MPs. And a lot

36:00

more people who were like former mine workers. They'd

36:02

had really hard manual jobs, and they'd made

36:04

it to their 60s and their heart gave out. So

36:06

there was always a thing that more labor MPs

36:08

died in office than conservative ones. But now no longer

36:10

true. I don't know if that will be true, because

36:13

only 4% of MPs are formerly from manual

36:15

occupations. So everybody has previously

36:17

had a white-coloured job and presumably does not have lungs

36:19

full of cold dust or whatever it would have been.

36:21

But it's not just the grandees going, is it? It's

36:23

a lot of those kind of red wallas in 2019

36:25

intake and people like Diana Davison

36:27

is going, isn't she? She

36:30

tried to find another seat, but couldn't... Mary Black, who was baby

36:33

of the house for the SMP? She came in in

36:35

2015, yeah. But she's

36:37

still only about 20... 12, yeah. We

36:40

are losing an awful lot of people. I must admit the argument is that

36:42

you're gonna get some new blood coming in as

36:45

well and new people with different

36:47

life experiences possibly. But then does that actually

36:49

just mean you get an awful lot of

36:51

Jared Omar as... What makes

36:53

really good and effective parliamentarians,

36:55

basically, because at least a

36:57

component of it will be

36:59

your experience of getting laws

37:01

passed, sitting on committees, scrutinising

37:03

legislation, ensuring that your department, whatever that

37:06

might be, is doing its job well or leading

37:08

it. That is

37:10

a big part of it. So there aren't

37:12

many other workplaces that are like this really, where you... Well, that

37:14

was a big part of why Kia Stama wanted to bring

37:16

in Sue Grey's, is kind of effective chief of staff

37:18

to have somebody with experience of actually running

37:20

the civil service. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if

37:22

Labour get in, I think Ed Miliband

37:25

served in the last Brown cabinet and

37:28

Bette Cooper did. But this is a glaugy group of

37:30

people who have no

37:32

ministerial experience. They've only ever been in their whole career

37:34

as shadow ministers. And you mentioned the

37:36

Jared Omar problem. The problem with Jared Omar is

37:38

he won in Sheffield Hallam, didn't he, from Nick

37:40

Clegg. That was in his seat that Labour were

37:42

not expecting to win. So I think there was

37:44

a situation where a couple of those Labour candidates

37:46

in that election were not as well-vetted as perhaps one

37:48

might have hoped. And again, we talked several

37:50

times on this podcast about the very tight

37:52

grip that David Evans, the general secretary of

37:54

the Labour Party in Kia Stama, have gotten

37:57

selections. But they're very aware of the fact that they've

37:59

got a huge number of votes. of people who are coming

38:01

in, you would expect most of them to be in

38:03

Parliament for two, three terms. He's, you

38:05

know, it's both an enormous amount of power and also

38:07

really don't let in people who are going to be

38:09

a massive pain in your butt for 20 years

38:12

to come. Because there's going to be

38:14

a lot of jobs to fill. So,

38:16

vetting the people now. The payrolls

38:18

are going to be in the seats where traditionally

38:20

you would have put the kind of the

38:23

25-year-olds who are fighting an unwinnable seat, but you

38:25

know, it's good experience on the way to getting

38:27

one in future. They are going to end up

38:29

like Jared and Mara. In those

38:31

seats, aren't they? Yeah, you know, normally you

38:34

say the home counties, you'd have put a paper candidate

38:36

in and said, you know, good light, you'll get a

38:38

lot of experience. But some of those people might genuinely

38:40

overturn, if polling continues as it is, 10,000, 15,000 seats

38:42

for vote

38:45

majorities. Graham Stewart, who's just stepped down from net

38:47

zero, has a majority of 20,500. And he said,

38:52

I'm stepping down to defend this

38:54

completely unwinnable nightmare seat. I

38:56

mean, that's the thing, when you're always trying to work out whether

38:58

or not what the polls are true and are they pissing

39:00

stuff up, you have to look at the fact

39:02

that the Tory MPs are voting with their feet that they think

39:05

the polls are right. And I'm bearing

39:07

that in mind very much. And

39:09

it does just lead to, I mean, all of these

39:11

people quietly going out the back door with nice letters

39:13

to Rishi, does just give you more of the impression

39:15

of a dead government walking, doesn't it?

39:17

They're just kind of trudging towards the people

39:19

and see coming. When I was doing a

39:21

little bit of reading before this, I found

39:24

out there is an official association of former

39:26

members of parliament, which is nice. Oh, that's

39:28

a broad set. They

39:31

have a magazine, which is called Order, Order.

39:33

Oh, sweet. Yeah. That's

39:35

quite sweet. It's

39:38

very nice. It's a good looking mag. I suppose

39:40

you could be more positive. You said we're losing

39:42

a huge amount of experience in the middle of

39:44

office and working out

39:46

how things work. But we're also

39:48

losing a huge amount of experience of

39:51

being useless and not getting much

39:53

done and taking quite a lot

39:55

of other jobs on the side and doing a

39:57

bit of lobbying. So it could well be swings

39:59

and ballads. I don't think you can

40:01

be too sad that there's a bit of a clear

40:03

out going on. Well I have really thought things have

40:05

been going very well for a long time Ian, so

40:07

actually I am sad about it. It's a quick quiz.

40:10

It's a quiz on jobs the MPs have

40:12

gone on to. So I've

40:14

limited this to people who ran for the leadership

40:16

of their parties, didn't make it. So

40:19

I'll start you off with a nice easy one. David Miliband. International

40:22

Red Cross? International Rescue. International Rescue, that's

40:24

great. Thunderbird 5. Oh Thunderbird. Ran

40:27

to be Labour leader against John Smith, lost

40:29

rather badly. Brian Gould, what did he do

40:31

next? Brian

40:34

Gould did it in New Zealand. He did,

40:36

he took it so well. He stormed off

40:38

thousands of miles to become Vice Chancellor of

40:40

the University of New Zealand. I thought he

40:42

had. Okay,

40:44

Jacqui Ballard, do you remember her? Ran

40:46

for Lib Dem leader against Charles Kennedy.

40:49

Primary school teacher? No, she ran

40:51

the RSPCA. Of course the RSPCA.

40:54

And the last one, Mark Oton, her colleague

40:56

who then stood against Mink Campbell and lost,

40:58

he became Chief Executive of the International Fur

41:00

Trade Federation, which goes to show that the

41:02

Lib Dems are a very, very broad church,

41:05

doesn't it? RSPCA and the International

41:07

Fur Trade Federation. Some

41:09

of us love Mink, some of us want to make them into coats. Okay

41:13

that's it for this episode of Page 94. Thank

41:15

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41:39

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