0:07

This is Sarah Stewart Holland. This is

0:09

Beth Silvers. You're listening to Pantsuit

0:11

Politics. Where we take a different approach to

0:13

the news. Thank

0:30

you so much for being here for a

0:32

new episode today. We're very excited. We have

0:34

a special interview with producer Rob Reiner,

0:38

that one, Rob Reiner, and

0:40

director Dan Partland about their new documentary

0:42

God and Country. God and

0:44

Country looks at the implications of Christian

0:47

nationalism and how it

0:49

distorts not only our constitutional

0:51

republic, but also the faith

0:53

of Christianity. Regardless of your

0:56

faith or lack thereof, this documentary

0:58

provides an important look at how

1:00

a certain sect of Christians in

1:02

America are influencing our politics. We

1:04

were very honored to get to chat with these

1:06

two about their work, and we hope that you

1:08

will enjoy this conversation as much as we did.

1:10

God and Country is in select theaters starting today.

1:13

You can check out the website in our show notes

1:15

to find a theater near you. And

1:18

then outside of politics, we're sharing

1:20

something that I have no chill about whatsoever.

1:23

It's a rare subject that I

1:25

feel this strongly about, but

1:27

stick around to hear what that is. This

1:30

is something that I think is just necessary for everyone. If

1:33

you have family members

1:35

who are struggling with

1:37

understanding Christian nationalism or understanding the threat

1:39

of Christian nationalism, this is a great

1:41

episode to forward on. You

1:44

don't have to convince everyone in your life to listen

1:46

to every episode of Pantsuit Politics, but I think we're

1:48

always looking for curation. And so

1:50

if you feel like an episode hits a

1:52

mark, pass it along. Pass it along. Say,

1:55

hey, I know this is a conversation we've had in the past. This podcast

1:57

really helped me understand this. We would love that. It

1:59

means a lot to us. The have bring a

2:01

new listeners and to bring in particularly

2:03

fresh conversation on much data topics like

2:05

the Sun. So. Without further ado,

2:07

here's our conversation with Rob Reiner and then

2:09

Portland about God and Country. Ryan.

2:15

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Thank you. We don't try to

4:01

talk about the cell and my first question

4:03

is. You. Know this

4:05

is such. A huge.

4:08

Topic. With. So many different

4:10

constituencies I know and like just our

4:12

audience. We have people who have lived

4:14

this who have been in these communities

4:16

or and sam ways that has like

4:18

been affected directly by cursing nationalism. We

4:21

have people who are learning about it

4:23

for the first time. We have people

4:25

that it feels like a different planet

4:27

so like when you are sitting down

4:29

to start to tell this. Story.

4:32

To try to sort of. Say.

4:34

Or. Where. We're at where we've

4:37

been like how did you decide. Where.

4:39

To start: How did you decide who to tell? Who

4:41

did you? How did you decide? Like who are we

4:43

trying to tell? This. To how his

4:46

attention are we trying to get. With.

4:48

This undertaking. Why? Think we're

4:50

trying to reach everybody. And what we.

4:52

Were. Able to do. I think in

4:54

the film the First Malts the Blob

4:57

People don't even know what Christian nationalism

4:59

is a means veils Think that ah,

5:01

you know me, the film is going

5:03

to be an attack on Christianity. It

5:05

couldn't be further from the truth is.

5:08

It's the opposite and the reason

5:10

we have the spokes people that

5:12

we do in the film or

5:14

all very devout. Christians.

5:16

Conservative Christians have many of them

5:19

is to talk about what Christian

5:21

nationalism is and the danger that

5:23

it presents not just for the

5:26

country, but for Christianity itself, And

5:28

that that to me is what

5:30

the film is all about, is

5:33

to try to reach as many

5:35

people as possible, to define what

5:37

Christened nationalism is, and to show

5:40

how dangerous it can be not

5:42

only to democracy but to actually

5:44

to Christianity. It's powered is

5:47

a hurting Christianity. It's and

5:49

these are very a prominent,

5:51

reputable conservative Christians. Talk about

5:54

that specifically in the So.

5:57

Such. A sensitive thing to talk about, people

5:59

say. I mean that, you know, I just

6:01

have too many people in my life who are

6:04

deeply devout, who I have tons of respect for,

6:06

would never want to do anything to

6:08

offend them. I definitely talked with all those

6:10

people a lot before starting this film to

6:12

gather their thoughts and perspectives and to make

6:14

sure that the voices that we had in

6:16

the film were absolutely irrefutable

6:19

in terms of their Christian bona

6:21

fides. You know, they're people, these

6:23

are not people who are looking

6:25

to take down Christianity in any

6:27

way, if anything, they're people who

6:29

are looking to lift it up. But

6:31

we still have to be able to

6:34

speak critically about things that aren't going

6:36

well within the faith and within our

6:38

body politic without having that

6:40

seem to be an attack on all

6:42

people. Most Christians are not Christian nationalists, but

6:44

it is a growing and strong

6:47

movement in America. I

6:49

attended a national church conference this

6:51

summer where we considered a resolution

6:53

as a church to condemn Christian

6:55

nationalism. That sounds very

6:57

dramatic. It was dramatic.

7:00

Well, it was dramatic in that overwhelmingly

7:03

the room had a common

7:05

definition of Christian nationalism, associated

7:07

it with extreme politics, and

7:10

felt compelled as a church to speak out against

7:12

it. But there was a voice of dissent in

7:14

the room who really was defining

7:16

it differently and was

7:19

struggling with what he felt

7:21

was an attack on patriotism. And

7:24

our church is very explicit about not

7:26

tying patriotism and faith together. But

7:28

he wanted to be able to say, I am both

7:31

a Christian and I would call myself a nationalist. I

7:33

love this country. So how

7:35

do you intend through the film

7:37

to work on that distinction? Because

7:39

it isn't just religion and

7:41

an extreme politicized version of religion that you're

7:43

working with here. It also gets to people

7:46

who, you know, think about the flag in

7:48

a particular way, who think about what it

7:50

means to be a patriot in a particular

7:52

way. Well, that's a

7:55

great question because when

7:58

you define... Dan talks

8:01

about the fact that if you talk

8:03

about a nationalist, you're saying, well, I'm

8:05

a patriot, I love our country, and

8:07

I'm Christian, and I'm a devout Christian,

8:10

and I believe

8:12

in my faith and all of

8:14

that. The problem is, if

8:17

you look at America, it's

8:19

a pluralistic society, it

8:21

believes in the separation of church and

8:23

state, and if you tie

8:26

nationalism to a religion,

8:29

you're going against the

8:32

concept of patriotism.

8:36

A patriot is somebody who honors

8:38

the Constitution, believes in the Constitution,

8:41

believes in the rule of law,

8:43

believes in the separation of church

8:45

and state, and if

8:47

you are unwilling to separate church

8:49

from state, you are

8:51

going against the Constitution, and I would

8:53

argue that that's not

8:56

patriotic. It's patriotic to

8:58

honor the Constitution, and

9:00

so it would be great to have

9:03

the discussion with that person that was

9:05

at your conference, and

9:07

to really sit down and

9:09

talk to them about what

9:11

is patriotism. Is patriotism my

9:13

country right or wrong? Because

9:16

we know that slavery

9:18

was wrong. We

9:20

know that we did certain things to

9:23

Native Americans that

9:25

was wrong. We know we've

9:27

done certain things to women, not

9:29

giving them the right to vote

9:32

was wrong. So we

9:34

have a way of dealing with that

9:36

in this wonderful Constitution that we have,

9:39

which allows it to be amended and

9:41

allows it for us to have a

9:43

more perfect union. So the

9:46

film is designed to have

9:48

that conversation, that specific conversation

9:50

with that guy that you

9:52

talked about at your conference,

9:54

to say, what does

9:56

that mean to be a Christian

9:59

Nationalist? That mean, and

10:01

if that means ah, my way

10:03

of a highway or you know

10:05

you have to. Believe.

10:07

Like I believe. Otherwise, you're not

10:09

welcome in this country. Then I

10:11

would argue that that's not. right?

10:14

And so that's what the film

10:16

is about. to open that conversation

10:18

so that christians are you know

10:20

can embrace their christianity and not

10:22

feel that they have to force

10:24

their religion on anybody had particularly

10:26

not in a violent way. Yeah.

10:30

I'm distraught. On

10:32

the first thing and another thing you're

10:34

talking as that's it. So smart and

10:36

is a very similar strategy to let

10:39

the January Six two many years to

10:41

it is using republicans using conservative voices

10:43

to say this is the problem that

10:45

we see any everybody testify before the

10:48

January Six committee or Republicans and Conservatives

10:50

and I think when you're trying to

10:52

get at. What? So difficult

10:55

which is at you know a

10:57

radical ideology that occupy a political

10:59

space and extreme, you know ideology

11:01

that's occupying a partisan political space.

11:03

To say it's we can just

11:05

come out of as outsiders, we

11:08

can't just come out it as

11:10

critics because that's going to set

11:12

people down and I see the

11:14

the what you're getting at so.

11:17

Accurately with this film and what your

11:19

name in here now is that. Part

11:22

of this radical strategy is to

11:24

redefine things is to redefine Christianity

11:27

is to redefine Nationalism is to

11:29

redefine what the Constitution stance or

11:31

I mean us even as a

11:33

person who is pretty well. Bursting

11:36

First the nationalism this the the footage

11:38

of Margie Taylor Green other say that

11:41

the day and like there's a separation

11:43

of church and state they made that

11:45

Athena have a cat sits designated definition

11:48

on nature of that is. The. definition

11:50

of disinformation yeah with push disinformation on

11:52

people to the where they hear that

11:54

and they go yeah there's no separation

11:56

there's a couple of places in the

11:58

film where we say that. But in

12:01

reality, it's in the Constitution three

12:03

times. Look, I hate

12:05

the term Christian nationalism. I mean, we all

12:07

should. It's really hard to deal with. It

12:09

sounds like it might be two very good

12:12

things, love of country, love of faith.

12:14

It's not that. And we do have to

12:16

explain to people what it means and what

12:18

it's all about. First of all, nationalism, I

12:21

mean, there's a sort of technical definition, but

12:23

the simplest way to talk about the difference

12:25

between nationalism and patriotism is that nationalism

12:29

is about loving the country

12:31

for its values, for its virtues,

12:33

for what it lays out of,

12:35

you know, what who Americans are

12:37

being proud of American virtues. Nationalism

12:41

about loving it because it's ours,

12:44

right? This is our country. And

12:46

so nationalist movements around the world,

12:48

you know, they define who participates

12:51

in this by

12:53

geographic boundaries, by

12:55

ethnicities, by religions, by races,

12:57

they use those factors to

12:59

say who is really fully

13:01

empowered, who is really part

13:03

of this nation. In

13:05

the United States, we took it in another direction

13:07

and we said, we said, that's

13:10

not what defines it. What defines it

13:12

is our adherence to these values, to

13:14

these beliefs in the Constitution. And that's

13:17

about the power of government

13:19

coming from the people. The

13:22

people doesn't look down on the people

13:24

who decide who gets to participate.

13:26

It starts with we the people. Yeah,

13:29

we the people is who the

13:31

Constitution represents. So

13:33

so that's the nationalism part. But the Christian

13:35

part is yeah, it's a misnomer. I wish it

13:37

weren't in the title because there's nothing Christian about

13:39

this movement. Yeah. It's really

13:42

a political movement masquerading

13:44

its faith. Yeah. I

13:46

mean, I remember being so struck by that

13:48

moment where I remember where I read it for

13:50

the first time that they started talking about the

13:53

number of evangelicals. Well,

13:56

the number of people who define themselves

13:58

as evangelical outside of any. church attendance.

14:01

Like there was no church attendance involved.

14:03

It was just a set of political

14:05

ideologies that has set that

14:07

has begun to set and define that term. I think

14:10

there's even a thing in the cover of the New

14:12

York Times right now about that it's a new

14:14

brand of evangelical supporting Donald Trump. But

14:16

it's not it's a political ideology. It's

14:18

not ever it's not any adherence to

14:20

any religious principles. Yeah,

14:23

yeah. Evangelical is really is

14:25

really complicated because unlike a lot of the

14:28

other denominations, it doesn't really have a definition.

14:31

And so the definition has become more

14:33

to become a descriptor more

14:35

than more than a denomination.

14:38

And so anybody, you know, in

14:40

all of these studies, they talk about self

14:42

identified evangelicals. A lot of these people don't

14:44

come from evangelical traditions, they don't, many of

14:47

them don't go to church at all. But

14:49

it's a political identity that they see on

14:51

TV. And that's the one that they

14:53

that's the version of God

14:55

and country that they want to ascribe to.

14:59

You highlight throughout the film that a key

15:03

feature of this descriptor is

15:06

a belief that you are despised by

15:08

the people in power in our society

15:10

that the elites hate us. And

15:13

Donald Trump was the master and

15:15

continues to be so successful at

15:17

spreading this message. I'm

15:19

just standing between them and you when they

15:21

persecute me, it's because they want to persecute

15:23

you and you show in the film, deep

15:27

threads of that where that came from. So I'd love for

15:29

you to talk a little bit about that. And I would

15:31

love for you to talk about how you thought

15:34

about the fact that there are

15:36

people in this film who

15:38

will take the existence of the film as

15:40

proof that the elites hate us. And

15:43

how how was that kind of the reinforcing heads

15:45

we win till you lose nature of this movement

15:47

on your mind as you made it? Well,

15:50

that's a really good question. But I

15:52

would I would urge people who are

15:54

watching the film to see that the

15:56

production of the film is not just

15:58

about the production of the dominant voices

16:02

in the film are

16:04

devout Christian conservatives who

16:07

are talking specifically about

16:10

the danger of Christian nationalism

16:12

to Christianity itself, not just

16:15

to the country and to

16:17

democracy, but to Christianity itself.

16:19

So if

16:22

anything, are

16:24

they going to call Russell Moore an elite? Are

16:26

they going to call David

16:29

French or Phil

16:31

Visher or a number

16:34

of the people we have in the film, these are

16:36

not elites, these are deep,

16:39

devout Christian leaders, Christian

16:42

thinkers. And they're

16:44

the ones that are telling the story. We

16:46

give them a platform to

16:48

tell the story. And

16:50

it's like, I think you said,

16:52

the January 6th committee had all

16:55

Republicans. We have all

16:57

of the people who are

16:59

respected in the

17:01

community talking about this. So

17:04

you can say it's elites

17:06

because you can point to

17:08

me, I'm a liberal

17:11

from Hollywood or whatever, or Dan,

17:14

I don't think Dan is,

17:17

he's not as much of a libtard as I am,

17:20

as they say. But we're not

17:24

the platform, we're giving voice to the

17:26

people who are

17:28

respected in the Christian community. Yeah,

17:32

I mean, the evidence

17:34

of how sensitive the subject matter

17:37

comes out right from the day we released

17:39

the trailer, really, we were not, we

17:41

were just releasing the trailer model to

17:43

have heard about the film a little

17:46

bit. But the firestorm of people, I

17:48

would think of this rather extreme form

17:50

of the Christian right coming out denouncing

17:52

the film as attack on Christianity. Wow,

17:54

you've got to that that really

17:57

takes a persecution complex, I think

17:59

to you denounce a film that you

18:01

haven't seen for being

18:04

a condemnation of Christianity, because I know if you'd

18:06

seen it, you wouldn't have said that. But

18:09

yeah, I think people have to see the film

18:11

and think about the ideas that are in there.

18:14

You're raising a sort of peripheral question

18:17

about other parts

18:19

of the political identity that predominates

18:21

Christian nationalism. I think

18:23

the people, there's plenty of people who are angry at

18:25

elites who are not Christian nationalists. I

18:28

mean, there's a lot of overlap,

18:30

but it's not the same thing. I don't... People

18:33

are allowed to be angry at elites. If they're

18:35

angry at elites, they feel like the poor have

18:38

been left behind by the power

18:40

structure. I think that's a fair thing

18:42

for society to talk about. But

18:45

to create a battle between... To

18:48

frame the battle as between the

18:51

godly and the godless, that

18:53

has nothing to do with what's going on in our

18:55

politics right now. It's really a way just of manipulating

18:57

an electorate. Well, and I think

19:00

that manipulation is key there, because I think

19:02

the moment for me where I thought, oh,

19:04

wow, this is... You

19:07

can't be respected enough inside

19:10

the Christian community for them not to

19:13

come for you should you step on

19:16

the wrong toes is when they went after

19:18

Beth Moore. I don't think there was anybody

19:20

that was more sacred to Beth Moore. And

19:23

to watch the abuse she took

19:25

and the vitriol. I

19:29

think that illustrates the point, which is it's

19:31

not about faith or Christianity.

19:33

I thought that one of the most powerful

19:35

points you make is that you

19:37

have to be both... You have

19:39

to have a Christian nation where Christians are

19:41

persecuted all the time. Those two

19:43

points seem to be in conflict with one

19:46

another. It's like you have to be the

19:48

hero and the victim. That's like the central

19:50

premise of this particular political ideology. And that's

19:52

tough. I mean, Donald Trump, he's both picked

19:54

on by everyone, but the only one that

19:56

can fix anything. That's just a

19:59

weird argument. And I think to

20:01

sort of put that in front of

20:03

people and say like, do you see how this

20:05

they're making you mad all the time so that

20:07

they can be the ones that will fix it

20:09

but only if you send that donation in right

20:11

now? I mean, I think the analogies to tell

20:13

evangelists is that prey on

20:15

people's fears, that prey on people's insecurities and tell

20:18

them like, I'm the only one. This is the

20:20

only option. Please send your dollars now. When

20:23

you lay it out like that and you can

20:25

see people who are – who

20:27

have dedicated their lives, even if you think

20:29

that they – like, you're mad and

20:31

you feel like they don't understand. Like,

20:33

you can't argue that someone like Russell

20:36

Moore or David French hasn't dedicated or

20:38

William Barber, who's a progressive Christian but

20:40

a Christian figure just the same, haven't

20:43

dedicated their lives to this religion. It's

20:46

still – it's hard and – but I think it's

20:48

just – it's heartbreaking and it's

20:50

hard to break because

20:53

it is a form of brainwashing. It's just a

20:55

particular form – it's a manipulation

20:57

to the level of brainwashing. I think

20:59

about David French. I don't think

21:01

he says this in your – or maybe he does say it

21:04

in the film where he says the woman came up to me

21:06

and says, I just don't understand why

21:08

you don't like him. And he's like –

21:10

because he lies. And she's like, what are

21:12

you talking about? He doesn't lie. It's

21:14

just that level until you can really

21:17

hear people who are steeped in

21:19

the community say, like, it felt like I was

21:21

on a different planet from this place I've lived

21:23

my whole life as a Christian. It's

21:25

just hard to comprehend. Yeah. And

21:28

what do the people say? I mean, what are – how

21:30

do they argue questioning

21:33

Beth Moore or Russell Moore's devotion

21:35

to their faith? What

21:38

are they saying that they don't

21:40

believe, that they are honest in their devotion to

21:42

their faith? I don't get – what are the

21:44

options? I mean, I think it's us them. You're

21:47

on the outside now. See? That's

21:49

all that matters. You're on the outside. You're not us

21:51

anymore. You're them. That's

21:53

it. That's all we need to know.

21:55

And, well, of the discourse, as we

21:57

say, of the debate online and –

22:00

and stuff, it really is shameful.

22:02

Of course, I mean, I just have to

22:05

give props to all the

22:07

people who gave us interviews. I was very

22:09

honored to have people of

22:11

that caliber wanting to speak up and entrusting

22:13

us with their words to make

22:15

sure we're telling the story, doing this

22:17

story justice. I think

22:20

that the additional tragedy

22:22

of it is that it is

22:24

those Christian conservative voices, those who have the

22:27

most prominence in the community who are taking

22:29

the most abuse. I mean, nobody

22:31

cares. Reverend Barber is not

22:33

taking any abuse online. Nobody is, you know,

22:35

it's a prize to hear what he's saying,

22:39

but the degree of vitriol that the

22:41

Christian conservatives in the film have gotten

22:43

is just terrible, and it's part of

22:45

the phenomenon. It's part of the phenomenon

22:47

to make very clear where

22:49

the battle lines are, and that battle line, you

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That's betterhlp.com/pantsuit. January

26:36

6 features in the film is not

26:38

entirely about January 6 but you see

26:40

footage and there is a discussion

26:43

of what motivated it and ties to scripture.

26:45

We're talking at a time when we're

26:47

seeing this continual evolution of what we

26:50

make in terms of meaning of that

26:52

day. And now

26:55

we don't have January 6 prisoners, we

26:57

have January 6 hostages. And you

26:59

in the film touching on

27:02

this concern that we're going to continue to

27:04

change the meaning of that event.

27:06

So I wonder what your hope

27:09

is as people see the film

27:11

and think specifically about January 6.

27:13

What is your what is

27:15

your kind of call to action for the viewer? Well

27:18

the call to action is to see

27:22

what could ultimately unfold

27:25

if we allow a certain

27:28

ideology which basically

27:30

is my way the highway and

27:32

will resort to violence to get

27:34

our way. What can happen

27:36

to the whole country? January

27:39

6, that

27:41

happened three years ago and what

27:43

we're seeing now is not

27:45

the dissolution of

27:50

that movement but the

27:52

hardening of that movement.

27:54

So what it portends

27:57

is something much worse.

28:00

if they don't get

28:02

their way. And so what we're hoping with

28:04

the film is to shine a light on

28:06

this and say, is

28:08

this a path we want to go down on,

28:10

go down to? We want to go down down

28:13

this path? I mean, is that what we want to do?

28:16

Or do we want to try to preserve

28:18

this wonderful 248 year, now

28:21

249 year experiment and self-rule

28:24

where we allow everyone to

28:26

have a voice

28:28

and where we allow everyone

28:30

to pray the way they

28:33

want to and believe

28:35

in what they want to? So that's

28:37

the it's a call. It's

28:44

a cautionary tale

28:47

of what could happen

28:49

if we don't start turning in

28:52

the right direction. The history of

28:54

January 6 is not settled

28:56

yet. It's not fully written and

28:59

it's moving. And

29:02

I think people are coming to

29:04

different conclusions about it. I think

29:06

that on the more

29:08

pro insurrectionist side of the debate, look,

29:11

I think it was the there's a graph

29:13

in the film that you know, based

29:15

on very good data that shows that in

29:17

the initial aftermath of January 6, most of

29:19

America was really horrified by it. And

29:22

by a year out,

29:25

by six months out, it had deteriorated. And

29:27

by a year out, it was maybe only

29:29

half of America was still really horrified. But

29:32

I'm pretty sure that in terms of the

29:34

political rhetoric, I think that

29:39

people on the on

29:41

the MAGA right will

29:44

be recasting them not as insurrectionists, but as freedom

29:47

fighters before we're one more year into this. I'm

29:49

sure they're going to be called freedom fighters. They're

29:52

already doing their you know, you've

29:54

got Elise Stefanik coming on. Meet

29:56

the press saying they're hostages. Who

30:00

said you know this is one

30:02

of the worst days. had no

30:04

history of our country. It's all

30:07

these people are saying that now.

30:09

they're saying they're hostages and and

30:11

they're just mural mirroring. What? What

30:13

Trump says that? Scary stuff. That's

30:15

scary stuff because a year of

30:17

that this information can harden things

30:19

even further. And that's the fear.

30:22

And hopefully this film will start

30:24

making people think about that. There

30:27

was a lot. A lot of people

30:29

wanted to have a very measured and

30:31

sober reaction to January Six that the

30:33

time they i think that's good and

30:35

healthy it's I think they're tell them

30:37

the in the initial telling the story.

30:39

I don't think it was told as

30:41

a christian nationalist truth an A on

30:43

but I think that over time as

30:45

cheap have been able to really dig

30:47

in. I think that that framing is

30:49

really accurate. I'm talk about in the

30:51

film that it's not. It's not that

30:53

every person there was a Christian nationalist

30:55

that they wanted. To have you know

30:58

where biblical verses written into American

31:00

law or anything like that, It's

31:02

that. This is it's they provided. The

31:04

framework is provided the the permission

31:06

structures that this is your country, you're

31:08

losing your country and you have

31:10

to fight to take it back where

31:13

they get the idea that they're

31:15

losing their country. he knows you

31:17

pointed out earlier. This

31:19

simply no evidence to that there. There are

31:21

things that are going away in America, some

31:23

that people bemoan, and some that are good

31:25

to be going away. But

31:28

Christians are not missing. Their

31:30

country of christianity is is

31:32

on the decline because the

31:34

society is secularizing of, but

31:36

not because there's not because

31:39

it's legal pressure to contain

31:41

christian. Well. And

31:43

I just think part of what's important.

31:46

As us to this and they're sitting and

31:48

hardly as to say. This. Is

31:50

Not about. Like. some

31:52

republicans he was less government and you

31:54

agree with him on some pieces of

31:56

less government and sell maybe they're not

31:58

that terrible this is people who want

32:00

Christian theocracy. And I

32:02

think the overturning of Roe v. Wade and the change

32:04

in abortion laws can go to that point.

32:07

These people hold extreme positions. You

32:09

have to understand the

32:12

extreme nature of these positions

32:14

just because they are often

32:16

backed up by Republicans, because

32:19

it's this cycle where Republican officeholders sort

32:21

of back them up and that like

32:23

moderates the position and I think the

32:25

eyes of the American populace, which is

32:27

probably why they're doing it. You

32:30

said something very important just now. You

32:32

said that one of

32:34

the ideologies of the

32:38

Republican Party is less government, and that's true. I

32:40

mean, it's been that way for a long time. There

32:43

cannot be more government

32:46

than an authoritarian government.

32:49

Exactly. Yeah, it's like dressed up,

32:51

but I think that's what people, they're kind

32:53

of burst. There's some stereotypes. There's some filtering

32:55

of information going on there, and they're saying,

32:57

well, if Elise Stefanik or whatever, they don't

32:59

know who Elise Stefanik is, but you're sort

33:01

of like not steeped in American

33:03

politics pays attention when it's time to

33:05

around the presidential election. They tell themselves

33:07

that like, well, both sides are kind

33:09

of bad. They're both full

33:12

of it. And this side, but

33:14

this side doesn't like, this side

33:16

likes less taxes and really wants

33:18

to stop, pare down the size of

33:20

the American government. So these people, it might not be

33:22

as bad as the other sides of making it out

33:24

to be until you can really put in front of

33:27

them, I think, like in a way like this, like,

33:29

no, this is, these are people who do not believe

33:31

in the separation of church and state. These are people

33:33

that want to pass religious laws and

33:35

either expel forcibly or otherwise people who

33:38

do not share this religion in the

33:40

United States of America. Like it's like

33:42

you have to say it so plainly.

33:44

Like this is an extreme position. This

33:46

is not Tammy Faye Baker. Like this

33:48

is a, this is a whole different beast

33:50

out there. They've got, they've got a fellow

33:52

Mike Johnson, who's now the speaker of the house,

33:55

who is a Professed.

34:00

Who will say that the Bible is

34:02

what you should base all laws on.

34:04

Yell at all government laws on. He's

34:07

the he's the second in line to

34:09

the press isn't of the United States

34:11

right now. Let's burn it a

34:14

little bit. The yes, the leadership of

34:16

this movement her deserve religious extremists I

34:18

think would be very comfortable with lot

34:21

of a theocratic measures that you're talking

34:23

about. that but that by no stretch

34:25

to zap represent most of who

34:27

was influenced by christian Us. That

34:30

we have to like. We have to

34:32

take it step and understand not just

34:35

what what it is, that also that

34:37

it's that it's some. It's not an

34:39

on off switch right? It's level seats

34:41

water. It's hard to really pin down.

34:44

It's a current in the culture that

34:46

informs all kinds of decisions and so

34:48

the bigger population in the one that

34:50

I'm more concerned about because the extremists

34:53

I'm. In a by their

34:55

nature a limited number, but it is.

34:58

The. Much bigger population are

35:00

people who are unwittingly

35:02

subscribing to these values

35:04

because they're being told

35:07

in a. He.

35:09

In their Christian community, in their

35:11

church, in their media silo the

35:13

being told again and again that

35:15

following this particular list the political

35:17

deliverables is a Christian thing to

35:19

do and a most people are.

35:22

They're. Not digging into it that hard.

35:24

Do nothing into that heart is everybody

35:26

who is in my community and my

35:28

pastors telling me this? Then I want

35:30

to do that and I want to

35:33

come out in favor of my team.

35:35

I want to do the Christian thing

35:37

because spirits feels right spiritually and because

35:39

I believe that that's good for America.

35:42

To the question is really about had

35:44

we reach those people, not extremists, the

35:46

leadership. I mean, they're problematic, no questions,

35:49

but there's this whole other layer of

35:51

how it's reverberating. Rep out around the

35:53

country that is bringing in a lot

35:55

of people who frankly or unwitting good

35:57

decent Americans who don't realize that they

35:59

said. up for this. My

36:01

personal goals for 2024 is to

36:04

actively value pluralism. Amen.

36:07

Because I worry that that's kind

36:10

of at the root of it. And

36:13

I think there, you know, there have been

36:15

times when I've done a poor job of

36:17

actively valuing pluralism. And I

36:19

thought about this watching the film because I grew up

36:22

in a Southern Baptist Church. But

36:24

much of what is being described

36:26

here is unrecognizable to me. Even

36:29

the symbolism, even some of the

36:31

stories, like I don't think about the mark

36:33

on the wall of Jericho. It's just like,

36:35

it's just not, it is not the

36:37

brand of Christian that I am. And

36:39

I think it's really hard, especially if

36:42

you're active in the church community, especially

36:44

if you are really committed to your

36:46

faith, it's kind of hard to remember

36:48

that there's pluralism within Christianity. And

36:51

I think the film does such a nice

36:53

job showcasing that. I mean, Dr. Barber and

36:55

David French are very different flavors

36:58

of Christianity. And

37:00

both very different flavors from some of

37:02

the pastors that you show talking to

37:04

their congregations about praying for Donald Trump.

37:07

So I just wonder, if you

37:09

think about that theme of pluralism, what it

37:12

calls to mind for you and and how

37:14

as creators, you want to bring more

37:16

people to that spirit of pluralism. You

37:19

know, I read a book years ago called

37:22

The Home Planet. And

37:24

in the book, it was all

37:26

about these different astronauts from different

37:29

countries, from America, from the

37:32

Soviet Union, from when there

37:34

was still a Soviet Union, India,

37:36

China, you know, Scandinavia, all these

37:38

different astronauts that went up into

37:41

space. And when they got up

37:43

there, they all have the same kind

37:45

of same experience, they first were looking for

37:47

where their countries were, you know, they looked at

37:49

the earth and they were finding their countries. Then,

37:53

after a while, they they started realizing, wait

37:55

a minute, we all live

37:57

on that little blue marble. that

38:00

there's not, you know, we're all, there's

38:02

not countries, we're all part of this

38:05

human race

38:07

that lives on this little

38:09

blue marble. And they started

38:11

seeing those divisions being eradicated.

38:14

And they realized that we are all

38:16

one. We're all, you know,

38:18

God's people, we're all, you

38:20

know, in this one place. And

38:23

I thought that was interesting

38:25

because, well, first of all, yeah, I

38:27

just thought it was interesting because here

38:30

is what we're talking about. You're talking

38:32

about pluralism, which is out of

38:34

the many, one. That

38:37

we're all connected, that

38:39

we're all part of this same human

38:41

race. And we

38:43

shouldn't be killing somebody because they

38:45

may be, believe something

38:48

different than what we believe.

38:50

We're all searching for spirituality,

38:54

love, you know, whatever. But

38:57

we all want to be

39:00

feeling like we're connected to everybody. Not that

39:02

we want to, you know, love thy neighbor

39:04

as thyself, do unto others as you

39:06

would have them do unto you. Not, you

39:09

know, if you don't do what I tell you,

39:11

I'm going to kill you. That's

39:13

not pluralism. Pluralism is

39:16

we all accept the fact that we're

39:18

all part of the human race. And

39:20

so that's hopefully what

39:22

the film espouses. And hopefully people

39:25

will take that away with that.

39:27

Well, I thought it ended on

39:29

such a positive note because I think the hardest

39:31

work, I think

39:33

it's true of patriotism.

39:36

And I definitely think it's true

39:38

of vision. It is easy

39:40

to point out the holes and

39:42

to raise the alarms. I mean, not easy,

39:44

but easier, right? We are

39:47

negatively biased creatures. We

39:49

are easy to sort

39:51

of point out what's dangerous

39:53

and wrong. I mean, that's the risk of

39:55

this movement, right? The reason you're willing to

39:58

kill someone who disagrees with you. because somebody

40:00

told you they're a threat to you. What

40:02

you're saying is true, though. It's

40:05

harder to spread the

40:07

positive part of it. But if you look

40:09

at the core of

40:11

Christianity, Jesus, who

40:14

talks about loving

40:16

thy neighbor as thyself, who talks

40:19

about doing unto others, that's

40:22

a wonderful thing to be able to say.

40:24

You know, you take from that Christian belief,

40:27

that's the thing to spread. And that's

40:30

a very positive thing that

40:32

is expressed at the end of the film.

40:35

And so what we're saying is

40:37

within Christianity is a tremendous hope

40:40

for all of us. Well,

40:42

and I just think that's so beautiful with the,

40:44

not just with the teachings of Christ, but hearing

40:46

William Barber say, Christians have,

40:49

I can tear up, Christians have played a

40:51

positive role in American history.

40:54

Like it doesn't have to be your criticism.

40:57

Yes, in the civil rights movement and moments

41:00

where people of faith were on the front

41:02

line saying, this far and no

41:04

further. And

41:06

I think that that's really powerful and really

41:08

important to give people, like I

41:11

said, like that sort of positive vision to

41:13

say, like, this is the problems that, it

41:15

doesn't mean that the solutions are not also within

41:17

us. And so. And we all have to

41:20

actually live it. I mean, pluralism is

41:22

America's gift to the world. We are

41:24

a model of how to do it

41:26

well. And so it's particularly

41:28

sad when we are stumbling to

41:31

deal with our pluralism, because you

41:33

can't unscramble the omelet, the United States, the pluralistic

41:35

country, and it was from the very beginning. That's

41:38

why we had to deal with it. But

41:41

we should be an example to the world of how we

41:43

can do that. And I

41:45

think that, in terms of the positive vision, with

41:51

the great Christian teaching is not

41:53

just to love your neighbors, but also to

41:55

love your enemies. You know,

41:57

to find a way that, I think that's. the

42:00

applicable idea, unfortunately, for this moment

42:02

of polarization where everyone is so

42:05

angry at each other, is

42:07

we're going to have to all really live it. We're going

42:09

to have to dig deep and

42:11

understand our shared humanity. We're going to have

42:13

to forgive a lot of people who

42:16

did a lot of things that we found

42:18

unconscionable. I do think there are a lot

42:20

of, I do think some of the way

42:22

forward, we do have to name it.

42:24

We have to name what's going on so that

42:26

people can see it, and so that people can

42:28

talk about it. But then I

42:30

think we also have to forgive. We're going

42:33

to have to forgive each other. We're going

42:35

to have to forgive each other for a lot of stuff. So

42:39

let's not focus on

42:42

being angry at somebody who got swept

42:45

up in this wave of Christian nationalism

42:47

because it is a social

42:49

phenomenon. And it's happening not just in the United

42:51

States, it's happening around the world as well. There

42:53

are a lot of people that are swept up

42:55

in it, but we have to help get them

42:57

back, get them back, reconnect

42:59

it to our shared humanity, get them

43:01

back to their Christian

43:03

ideals, and get them back to

43:05

their American-ness, their American-ness, which is

43:08

inseparable from that pluralism that you're

43:10

talking about. Well,

43:12

thank you. I think this film will be an incredibly

43:15

important step in that process. We'll hopefully move us all

43:17

forward. And just thank you for making it. Thank you

43:19

for coming on our show to talk about it. Yeah,

43:22

I mean, I just want to say I'm

43:24

really grateful for this conversation with you

43:26

guys. I mean, you're so smart and

43:29

you have such great

43:31

insight and great questions and everything.

43:33

And this was just an absolute

43:35

pleasure to talk to you guys.

43:37

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47:13

We've decided to test the outer

47:15

bounds of your love for us

47:18

and see how closely we

47:20

can creep up to the line of getting canceled here today.

47:23

Everybody take a deep breath. The

47:25

subject is bed making.

47:28

Okay, well

47:30

let me just let me dive right off into

47:32

the controversy because here's

47:34

how we started this conversation. I was

47:37

mad at my child because he won't put his laundry away and

47:40

I said I'm gonna tell him the truth. You

47:44

don't like Jordan Peterson and his ilk but

47:46

the one thing they do get right is

47:50

the advice of just get up and make

47:52

your bed. Just do the thing. Do the

47:54

chore. Get it over with. Make

47:57

your bed. Make your bed. And I

47:59

see. I don't have any patience

48:01

for not making your bed every morning. Beth

48:04

has so much patience for people. I mean, if I said

48:06

it, people would be like, oh, here comes Sarah again with

48:08

her rules about clothing and her desire

48:10

for everyone to make their bed. She's an indigram one,

48:12

but you're an indigram two and you feel the same

48:14

way, which means we're right. Obviously. I

48:17

think that's true. I think that's what

48:19

that means. I have so few things

48:22

where I'm like, there's one way to be

48:24

here. I cannot

48:26

fathom. No. Not

48:29

making my bed ever for

48:32

any reason. The only time I

48:34

do not make my bed is because I'm going to

48:36

wash my sheets. I

48:38

mean, that means I'm going

48:40

to really make it later. I'm going

48:42

to make it with the intensity and

48:44

precision of a high-end hotel. I

48:47

want the bed made always and forever.

48:49

I just feel like it is a

48:51

love note from morning me to evening

48:53

me. Yes. Okay. I

48:56

have two things here. Okay. I had

48:58

a little bit of a problem this morning when I was

49:00

making my bed because last night we had a really hard

49:02

night with Felix. I don't know what happened. He was very

49:04

anxious. He never does this. He couldn't go to sleep and

49:06

he ended up sleeping in our bed, which is not a

49:08

pleasant situation because we have a split king. So there is

49:10

a hole in the middle of the bed.

49:12

I did not sleep well. I slept so terribly and

49:14

as I was making the bed, I thought, this is

49:16

why you make your bed, especially after a tough night.

49:18

Cause you're like releasing that.

49:21

I'm like brushing that away as opposed to

49:23

if I like got in the bed tonight

49:25

with the blankets all messed up from when

49:27

he was there and his like little lovey.

49:29

And so then I'm getting in the bed

49:31

with the memory of this terrible night from

49:34

before, as opposed to like making the bed,

49:36

wiping it clean, you know, erasing

49:38

the night, erasing the day. It's

49:40

a fresh start, right? Absolutely. You

49:43

are saying Beth and

49:45

Chad of 10 PM. I

49:47

care about you. I want you

49:49

to be really happy. 10 PM. We're actually

49:51

in bed earlier than that, but the time when we might

49:53

go to sleep, I care about you. I

49:56

want you to have your best sleep available

49:58

tonight and I'm, I'm giving. you the fitting.

50:00

You're also saying all day, Bev and

50:03

Chad, when you walk by this room, you're going

50:06

to feel like people who have their stuff together.

50:08

That's right. And that's important. You need to feel

50:10

like people who have their stuff together. And it's

50:12

just a little anchor. You just get up and

50:14

you do it. You move your body for a

50:16

second. You touch some things. You're just

50:19

being a person in the world. As

50:21

soon as you get up, I don't,

50:23

I don't understand what it must

50:25

be like to go through the day with

50:29

the sheets and the blanket, just

50:31

however, but just get chaos.

50:34

The anarchy is what we're telling y'all. Well,

50:36

and listen, my master bedroom is

50:38

on the ground floor of my house. You see

50:40

it as you walk, like if you were to

50:43

walk, unless I close the door, like as you

50:45

walk through my front door into my house, my

50:47

bedroom is right there. So like, I keep it

50:49

like that. So if people come over, like I

50:52

don't have to worry about cleaning up. Everything is mostly

50:54

cleaned up. And, and even if nobody comes over, which

50:57

they don't for days and days at a time, I

51:00

like to walk by and see that. Okay. But here's my

51:02

second question from before. When you wash

51:05

your sheets and you've made the bed with hotel

51:07

precision, is it

51:09

important to you to have showered

51:11

and have clean pajamas on? Of course it is.

51:14

Okay, good. Okay. So I'm not the only

51:16

one. No, we're bringing our best selves. It's

51:19

a fresh slate. It's a clean slate. That's

51:23

right. We are doing new pajamas.

51:25

We're doing a shower. One time,

51:27

Nicholas tried to get in the

51:30

newly made bed from the clean sheets, like after

51:32

working out. And I was like, do you want

51:34

to stay married to me? Go

51:37

shower. Or

51:39

we, we cannot continue on as we have

51:41

for the previous 20 years. The sheets are

51:43

clean. It is a treat. We got to

51:45

indulge in the full treat. It's

51:47

a new day. It's a new

51:50

day. Now, how often do you wash

51:52

your sheets? I tried to do it once a week. I

51:54

like clean sheets. Okay. Once a week. That's me. I got,

51:56

I'm not Oprah. I know Oprah likes to try to justify

51:59

the fact that she likes. has somebody change

52:01

her sheets every night, and I love her and I

52:03

don't find faults in her for many things, but that's

52:05

crazy. I think so too. I don't wanna be over

52:08

the top about this, but I want new sheets

52:10

about once a week. What I really do not

52:12

want is a kid sitting on my bed after

52:14

I've made it. I hate that.

52:16

I'm like, do you not even care about

52:18

my happiness? Do

52:21

you think about me at all? Well, that's how

52:23

my conversation with Griffin started when he was not making his

52:26

med and put his laundry like, he loves when I do

52:28

this. I'll be like, is your bed made? And

52:30

if it is, I'll be like, I knew you loved me. And he's like, mom. And

52:34

if it isn't, I'm like, you don't love me. Now,

52:37

obviously I'm being hyperbolic. Follow me for more parenting

52:39

tips when you tell your children if they don't make

52:41

your bed, they don't love you. Well, I will walk by

52:43

the girls' dreams on the weekend and say, you haven't made

52:45

your bed, and they're like, it's not a school day. And

52:47

I'm like, are you gonna sleep tonight?

52:49

What does that have to do with it? You

52:51

need to make your bed. Now, I will say

52:53

this, I will say this to our conversation on

52:55

a previous outside of politics, where we talked about

52:58

breaking the rules. There are some Saturdays when I'm

53:00

really trying to break the hold of should in

53:02

my head, because I should all over myself. I

53:04

should do this, I should do this, I should

53:06

do this. Where on some

53:08

Saturdays, Beth, I

53:10

will confess to leaving my bed unmade. I

53:13

have to try. I have to like, it's

53:15

almost like you should leave it unmade as a practice,

53:17

but like, I have to work at it. I have

53:19

to like walk by me like, no, just leave it.

53:21

It's a Saturday. You can, every once in a while,

53:23

like once a month, you can

53:25

relax and leave the bed unmade. And I do

53:28

think it is a helpful mental exercise, but

53:30

I have to work at it. I'm not gonna lie.

53:33

I'm very skeptical of this. Because I love Beth and

53:35

Chad on Saturday night too. You

53:37

know what I mean? This is just one

53:39

of those things, I don't feel pressure. No one's

53:41

grading me about this. My bed is upstairs. I

53:43

could shut the door of my bedroom and not

53:45

think about it. I like to

53:48

have my bed made. I'm happier when my

53:50

bed is made. I do, it's just to

53:52

turn back the bed, yes, to turn back

53:54

the sheets. Now, how many on controversial

53:57

topics surrounding beds? Okay. How

54:00

many pillows do you have? So we have a king bed

54:02

and we have six

54:05

regular pillows across the bed,

54:07

right? Three groups of two.

54:10

And then in front of that I have three

54:12

groups of two. Why do you have three

54:14

groups of two? Like the

54:16

two you sleep on and then two in the middle

54:18

that we sort of share and then the huge head

54:21

sleeps on. So three groups of two

54:23

pillows. Okay. Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay.

54:25

Six across the bed. Okay. And then in front of

54:27

those I have three European, like

54:31

the big rectangular. Yes. Yes. Sort of cover

54:33

the pillows that we actually sleep on. Okay.

54:35

So you sleep on, between you, you use

54:38

three pillows every night. Oh,

54:40

okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That helps. Okay. So

54:43

then I have the three just

54:46

hide the pillows. The pretty pillows. Yes. Yes. Yes.

54:48

Okay. So we're up to nine. We're up to

54:50

nine. Right. And then I have a rectangular decorative

54:53

pillow in front of those.

54:56

So 10. Okay. Then I

54:58

did for Father's Day. I

55:00

did for Father's Day purchase this

55:04

very, very long pillow. It is sort

55:06

of triangular in shape. It's supposed to

55:08

be a like sit in bed and

55:10

read pillow. You have a Tempur-Pedic. Why

55:13

do you need that? Well, I

55:15

just thought it looked comfy. I thought it Chad

55:17

might enjoy it. He likes to watch baseball in

55:19

bed. I thought it might be, you know, really

55:21

helpful. So what I have been doing, it's big.

55:23

It's really, really big and long. So I've been

55:25

putting it in front of the pillows we sleep

55:27

on and then putting my pretty pillows in front

55:29

of it. So 11 is the total

55:32

number of pillows on my bed. I can't wait

55:34

for Nicholas Holland to listen to this because he

55:36

will never say a bad word about you or

55:38

any of your choices. And you have more pillows

55:40

than we do, which I get harassed about all

55:42

the time. Well, you're welcome. Yeah. Thank

55:44

you for this. This is a real gift you've

55:46

given me. So we have, I only sleep on

55:48

one pillow. He sleeps on one pillow. I have

55:50

one kind of curl up pillow. Did you see

55:52

the Holderness' video about her Kim's nighttime

55:55

routine? No. Don't watch it. You'll feel

55:58

attacked. I texted them and said we are not. sworn

56:00

enemies. We're done. This is a, this is

56:02

a personal attack on me. It's hilarious.

56:04

It's so accurate. And he's like, this is my cuddle

56:06

pillow. This is my prop. This is my need pillow.

56:09

I'm like, how dare you, sir? Um,

56:11

so we only have, I have two, he has one

56:13

that I have three Europeans

56:16

that I have two like

56:19

king size pillows with pretty shams on them.

56:21

And then one lumbar throw pillows. So that's

56:23

one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight,

56:25

nine, nine. I have nine. That seems totally

56:27

reasonable. He's like, what is happening? Why do

56:29

we have all these damn pillows? I mean,

56:31

there's like three, if you would like to

56:33

go to Instagram, you could fill your day

56:35

watching reels about husbands and throw pillows. So

56:37

I think the pillows are silly too. And

56:39

I don't care because I like them. And

56:42

listen, I feel the same way about the pillows

56:44

on the couch downstairs. As I feel about the

56:46

bed being made, I want the

56:48

pillows sitting in their right positions. If no one

56:50

is sitting on that couch, I just want them to

56:52

go back to where they, if you're sitting on the

56:54

couch, you do whatever you damn well, please with the

56:56

pillows. I want you to be comfortable and happy and

56:58

relaxed. Just put them back. Put

57:01

them back. Why can't they put them back? They

57:03

never put them back ever. They can't. It's

57:05

like they're physically incapable of putting them back.

57:07

Listen, you know what I did the other

57:09

day back to the neatness and the clothing.

57:11

I brought every male in my house

57:13

into the room. I said, come

57:15

here, everybody from 44

57:18

to eight and stand in front of me

57:21

and watch me do this. And

57:23

I took a new pair of pants of griffins. I

57:27

pulled off the tag and

57:29

I threw it in the trash can.

57:31

I was like, this is where they go. When

57:34

you get a new piece of clothing,

57:36

which what a gift, what a blessing

57:38

to you that someone has purchased you

57:41

this beautiful new piece of clothing. Please

57:43

remove the tag and then throw it in

57:45

the trash can. And I made everybody practice doing it,

57:47

including Nicholas who struggles the most with this. Did

57:50

you also instruct

57:52

them that the little plastic piece

57:54

of the tag is attached to is also trash?

57:56

It does go in the trash can as well.

57:58

It's not required. to leave

58:01

the little piece of plastic right

58:03

in the middle of a carpeted floor for someone to

58:05

step on. Listen, if you wanna see a

58:07

Sarah on a rampage, throw a piece of trash

58:09

on the floor of my house and see what

58:11

happens. My house is not a trash can. I

58:13

spend an enormous amount of money, mental

58:16

energy, and physical energy on

58:18

my house, and I love it. I love this house.

58:21

So when you, like for

58:23

example, should I find a banana peel

58:25

behind my couch? I'm gonna

58:27

come unglued. I'm gonna come unglued.

58:30

Now a unique problem to having

58:33

only girls are the elastic

58:35

hair bands. Oh, I

58:37

believe that. I'm interested

58:39

in what kind of system you would

58:42

devise if you were living among the

58:44

hair bands, because they are

58:46

everywhere all the time in

58:48

all the places. It's a

58:51

sea of hair bands out here. Okay,

58:53

could we develop a practice where we put the hair

58:55

band on our wrist? Well, Jane

58:57

does that. Jane, in fact, always has about

59:00

four on her wrist, two on each side.

59:02

I have put a glass

59:04

jar in a kitchen cabinet and

59:06

said, you know what, if you're in the kitchen and

59:08

you need a hair band, you can get one from

59:10

here and you may deposit any hair bands back in

59:12

here. I don't wanna find them anywhere else. I have

59:15

many stations for the hair bands

59:17

and still, they're just everywhere. I

59:19

like that system. I believe in our listeners. I bet

59:22

there is a listener out there who has devised a

59:24

hair tie solution. I'm

59:26

looking forward to hearing that. I hope

59:29

they still love us. Hope we keep our listeners

59:31

who don't like their bed. We

59:33

still love you. We do wanna help you, but we

59:35

still love you. I love you enough that I want

59:38

you to climb into a bed that's made every night,

59:40

because it feels so good. That's

59:42

it. There are some things where I feel like you

59:44

do need rebellion and you need to walk back from

59:46

should, many of them. Yes, yes.

59:48

But this to me is just a gift to

59:50

yourself. It's so easy, it's so easy. Takes

59:53

like two minutes. You can do it.

59:55

Two minutes. Well, and there's like studies. Like

59:58

there's like actual evidence. But

1:00:00

this is really, really good

1:00:02

for you. Like, there's like military studies

1:00:04

and stuff. I just would

1:00:06

like to invite you, if you are a non-bed maker, to

1:00:09

say for a week, I'm gonna make my

1:00:11

bed every day and just see,

1:00:13

just do my own personal study and

1:00:15

see if this feels like a gift to myself. And if

1:00:17

it doesn't, you can ignore me and live your best unmade

1:00:20

bed life. And I will not judge you for it.

1:00:22

I just believe it will be a gift to you. I

1:00:24

really do. Now I will say this, we are

1:00:27

both horny people and this might break down among

1:00:30

the morning birds and the night elves. You know

1:00:32

what I'm saying? Like, if you're not a morning

1:00:34

person, that could be a tough one. That

1:00:37

could be a tough one. I don't know. She's

1:00:40

skeptical. Her face right now says, no, it's still

1:00:42

good for you. I just

1:00:44

feel that whenever you're going to bed and getting

1:00:46

up, this is a good practice. I

1:00:51

can make space for lots of different ways of

1:00:53

being. I truly do not understand not making the

1:00:55

bed. Just not this one. I'm excited to have

1:00:57

found one. My list of things about this is

1:00:59

like super, super long, but I'm excited to find

1:01:02

a small one

1:01:04

on yours. This is exciting. And I can't wait to

1:01:06

hear from everybody about this. Thank

1:01:08

you so much to both Rob and Dan for

1:01:10

sharing their work with us. Thank you to all

1:01:12

of you for joining us today. We

1:01:15

will be back with you next Wednesday

1:01:17

after the President's Day holiday. Until then,

1:01:20

have the best weekend. Thank

1:01:26

you. Dan

1:01:36

DePaulton is produced by Studio D

1:01:39

Podcast Production. Elise Knapp is our

1:01:41

Managing Director. Maggie Pinton is

1:01:43

our Director of Community Engagement. Xander

1:01:45

Singh is the composer of our theme

1:01:47

music with inspiration from original work by

1:01:49

Dante Lima. Our show is

1:01:51

listener supported. Special thanks to

1:01:53

our executive producers. Martha Brinitzky.

1:01:56

Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott.

1:01:58

Sarah Greenup. Julie

1:02:00

Haller. Tiffany Hasler.

1:02:03

Emily Holiday. Katie

1:02:05

Johnson. Katina Zuganellis-Kasling.

1:02:07

Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer.

1:02:09

Lori Liddow. Lily McClure.

1:02:12

Linda Daniel. Tracy

1:02:15

Putoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy

1:02:17

Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karen

1:02:20

True. Annika Yuvalin. Nick

1:02:22

and Elisa Valleli. Amy

1:02:24

Wiedet. Emily Helen Olson.

1:02:26

Alicia McDonough. Morgan McHugh.

1:02:28

Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago.

1:02:31

Becca Dorval. Christina Corderaro.

1:02:34

Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead.

1:02:36

Samantha Chalmers. The

1:02:42

Adair family. Jeff Davis, Melinda

1:02:44

Johnston, Michelle Wood, Nicole Berklis,

1:02:47

Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller.