0:00

Paper Ghosts is a production of I

0:02

Heart Radio. While

0:07

going through the pile of documents Lisa

0:09

White's mother had given to me, I

0:11

ran across a newspaper article from

0:15

I had somehow not paid much attention to

0:17

over the years. The headline

0:20

attack cases begin to surface.

0:23

A description of the alleged perp who

0:25

had tried to abduct and sexually assault

0:27

several young girls and a high school teacher

0:30

stood out early twenties,

0:32

five ft six inches tall, stocky,

0:35

dark hair and mustache, dark

0:37

rimmed glasses. I've

0:40

compared it to a number of suspects that

0:42

have been tied to these cases and

0:44

can say the composite sketch accompanying

0:46

the article is akin to a

0:49

photograph of Bob Lurosa.

0:52

I showed the sketch to several of the people I've

0:54

interviewed who knew Bob personally

0:57

back in the day. Unanimously

1:00

all of them agreed the sketch resembled

1:02

Bob. I've

1:06

been sharing some of my findings with Bob

1:08

Rossa's youngest son, Mo, who

1:11

was just nine months old when his mother

1:13

was murdered. Most seems

1:15

convinced his dad was not responsible.

1:18

He protects his father in one way, and yet

1:20

in another he's honest about

1:22

possibilities and evidence. Growing

1:25

up, Most says he and his siblings

1:27

had all left home by the age of sixteen,

1:30

mostly because, in most view, they

1:33

never saw their father. Bob

1:35

was never around through

1:37

the years. He just worked and

1:40

you didn't see a lot of him. I

1:42

get home from school and he's

1:45

sleeping. I go to bed, he

1:47

gets up and he goes to work. I

1:49

asked more what his dad thought about the Vernon

1:51

Police Department reopening his mom's

1:53

case in two thousand two, when forensic

1:56

scientists doctor Henry Lee became involved

1:58

and went into the row his old apartment

2:01

in Vernon to test for residual blood.

2:03

How did he feel about that whole thing in

2:06

where they cut out the piece of floor and everything.

2:08

We we actually spoke about that, and he

2:11

just he was very calm about

2:13

it. He said, well, you know, they're not gonna find anything.

2:16

He said, I didn't do anything wrong to hurt your mother.

2:18

There was such a miniscule amount of forensics

2:21

found during the search, no human

2:23

blood or DNA. There just

2:25

wasn't enough to bring Bob to

2:27

trial. He was upset that my sister

2:30

would would do what he called a witch on

2:33

on him. My sister was

2:35

three years old, and you

2:38

know she she claims she sees

2:40

things vividly from the day they

2:42

were there, even my new

2:44

details. She's she's got it all down.

2:47

Um, three year olds, aren't

2:51

You couldn't do it. I

2:55

recently obtained a transcript dated

2:57

September just

3:00

after Stacy LaRosa started talking

3:02

about her mother to a psychologist. Stacy

3:05

talks about Daddy hitting mommy

3:07

in the stomach, Mommy being asleep,

3:10

and Daddy putting Mommy in the

3:12

bedroom. Then quote,

3:14

Mommy went shopping to the store by

3:17

herself in the car. Stacy

3:20

has asked, did Daddy help Mommy

3:22

into the car? She answered

3:25

yes, and me and Maurice

3:27

and my older brother were alone

3:30

all day. A

3:35

grand jury ultimately voted not to

3:37

indict Bob LaRosa. All

3:40

of the evidence was circumstantial,

3:42

but throughout the years, Vernon police

3:45

detectives kept on Bob

3:48

right up until the day he died. After

3:51

defending his father, talking to me about

3:53

how he and his dad went fishing together

3:56

and how great a dad Bob was to him,

3:58

I asked more if he could ever accept the fact,

4:01

if it was ever proven that his dad was

4:03

a very bad man, more

4:07

hesitated. He thought about

4:09

how to respond than

4:11

this. I heard about it every year

4:13

on the news, and I was like, you know, who

4:16

really cares. They

4:18

don't know who did it, they'll never find who did it.

4:22

Let's just be quiet about it and it'll

4:24

go away. And then later

4:26

on in life I decided, you know, that's

4:28

kind of the wrong attitude. I'm

4:35

the youngest person involved in it, and

4:38

if I don't step up and try to help figure

4:40

it out and I die, that's

4:43

it. It goes away because

4:45

nobody below me is gonna care. Previously

4:56

on paper Ghosts and

5:00

of a year old girl is riding her bicycle.

5:02

She sees a car pass her. She

5:05

goes a bit further. All of a sudden,

5:07

a guy jumps out of the woods

5:09

and drags her off the bicycle and is

5:11

trying to take her into the woods.

5:14

For me, it felt like years getting

5:17

the answer, just waiting, and it was right before my

5:19

birthday, and I just kept saying to myself,

5:21

all I want for my birthday is this to

5:24

be found as Lisa. That's

5:27

all I wanted. Then they would

5:29

say, but it's right here in this

5:31

report that you said that, and they're

5:33

like, they don't know if he was lying

5:35

or really can't remember. He

5:38

said, it was hard to tell you that he might just be a

5:40

really good liar. My

5:42

name is and William Phelps.

5:45

This is paper ghosts

5:52

and talking to dozens of people connected

5:54

to these cases. I have only

5:57

one person left to interview, the

5:59

witness. I'm

6:02

told police spoke to him about the cases as

6:04

recently as June two thousand nineteen.

6:07

I'm also told that in the state he moved

6:09

to after leaving this area, there

6:12

are two cases of missing girls nearby

6:14

that he has been questioned about. With

6:17

regards to those cases, one major

6:19

crimes detective told me, I don't

6:22

know about you, Phelps, but dead and missing

6:24

girls. Whenever I have moved,

6:27

they don't follow me. I

6:30

decided the best way to introduce myself

6:32

and get him talking was in the form of a letter

6:34

to give him the opportunity to ponder what

6:37

I want. I ended it with a request

6:39

for the witness to call me, adding if

6:41

I did not hear from him, I would

6:43

call in a few weeks. Oh,

6:52

hi, been, that's

6:55

me. My name's Emi William Phelps.

6:57

Call me Matthew. I sent you

6:59

a letter. A couple of weeks ago. Did you get

7:01

it? Okay? Brning canetic

7:03

and yeah, what do you want? Well, I

7:06

was just calling to chat

7:08

a little bit about you know what I'm doing.

7:11

I mean, from what I hear you, you knew these

7:13

guys pretty well. You

7:16

didn't know Bob and Nathan. No. I

7:19

knew Bobby he was my brother in law.

7:22

And Nathan I knew because he would

7:24

related to Bobby, But I didn't know him that

7:26

good. That was so interesting

7:28

to me. I didn't know them

7:31

that good. Really.

7:35

Immediately, the witness comes across hostile

7:38

and impatient. The fact that he

7:40

tells me right off the bat that

7:42

he doesn't know Bob or Nathan LaRosa

7:45

is actually astonishing because this

7:48

is factionally untrue. But

7:51

look, I go along with it. What

7:54

I'm doing is a podcast, So

7:56

I just wanted to make sure you had your

7:58

opportunity to speak. Oh

8:00

yeah, yeah, but I'm done talking.

8:02

Like I told the cops when I gave

8:05

my deposition here two freaking days

8:07

I had there was four cops come up,

8:11

investigators. It was actually

8:13

just three cops. And when he

8:15

refers to deposition, he

8:18

means interview. They kept saying,

8:20

well, did you kill I can look for

8:22

the last fucking time. I didn't kill

8:24

anybody, I didn't hurt anybody.

8:27

I don't know what's going on with all his

8:29

ship. I wasn't friends with

8:31

Robert LaRosa or Nathan

8:34

LaRosa or any of them. Is

8:36

there anything you can tell me about you know those

8:38

guys that time? I mean everything

8:40

I'm looking at is pointing like to Bob Larrossa

8:43

as a guy who probably

8:46

killed his wife but maybe also involved

8:48

in some other disappearances in the area.

8:51

I knew him as a brother in law. We

8:53

hung out when we had functions

8:56

at the house. Other than that, I

8:58

didn't want nothing to do with him

9:00

when I got mad when we moved. When I bought my

9:03

house, I separated

9:06

myself from all of old people, and

9:09

my wife kept in contact with Bobby.

9:12

Why I don't know your

9:15

ex your ex wife and

9:18

that ex wife would be and Countier,

9:21

who you've heard in previous episodes. She's

9:24

one of Susan Rosa's sisters and alleged

9:26

the witness was violent during their marriage.

9:29

She claimed eadily for days at a

9:31

time, with no explanation of

9:33

where he went. The witness, in turn,

9:36

claims the same about Anne. I

9:38

was in the hospital a lot of when a lot of this

9:40

ship was going on, and then

9:42

I was in a wheelchair. No, all

9:46

she has to do is think back on what was going on

9:48

and where the hell she was

9:51

all those nights that she took off and I was babyshitting,

9:54

I was watching our kids. Oh,

9:56

I'm going over here to see a friend of mine. All

9:59

that hospitals stuff, the wheelchair

10:02

and going out. There is

10:04

zero corroborating evidence I

10:06

could find to support any of it. In

10:09

fact, all I have are people telling

10:11

me the exact opposite. You

10:13

know, they ought to check my ex wife. She

10:16

never got along with her sister whatsoever,

10:19

And I mean she hated her to

10:21

a fucking passion. And to turn

10:23

around and say I did

10:25

this. No, it

10:36

seemed to me as we got into it that the witness

10:39

wanted to push any attention away from

10:41

his connection to the le Ross. It's

10:44

important to say that the witness has never been

10:46

charged with the crime connected to any

10:49

of these cases. Yes, he's

10:51

injected himself into the narrative. Yes,

10:53

police have questioned him multiple times.

10:56

But the guy is still clearly upset

10:58

because he believes Tina rose So, the

11:00

niece of Irene l Rosa, told

11:02

police he mentioned bodies and water

11:04

wells up at Crystal Lake. And here

11:07

next he speaks directly

11:09

about Tina. Boy, that girl's

11:11

got a hell of an imagination. She hangs

11:13

around and and all lott

11:15

people. And uh.

11:19

Then she grad to say, I was saying

11:21

all kinds of shit about her, her

11:24

aunt or whatever it is. And I said, no, that

11:26

ain't that it Wasn't said yeah,

11:29

I think also, and I said I'm

11:32

I said, yeah, that's one of the reasons I moved

11:34

away. It's faint, but you

11:36

can hear in the background the witnesses second

11:39

wife kind of reminding him what

11:41

to say, not for nothing,

11:43

but he comes off as if barely knowing

11:46

Tina, despite the fact that they've

11:48

spoken a number of times at length

11:50

about Irene LaRosa and location of

11:52

certain water wells. And I've

11:55

heard two voicemails he has left on Tina's

11:57

phone, both of which prove that

11:59

he owes her very well. Then

12:02

that last call they had in fact being

12:04

monitored by police, which tipped

12:06

them off to dig up a spot on the

12:08

window's property. The

12:10

problem here is that when you have a person of

12:12

interest like the witness per se,

12:15

you want to be careful about showing your cards.

12:18

But Tina frequently shares her thoughts

12:20

and unverified claims

12:22

all over Facebook, and you can

12:24

imagine how that's going to make someone like the witness

12:27

feel. She was bringing up wells

12:29

all the time, and she said, where's the wells?

12:31

I said, when I was a kid, there

12:33

were some wells out in the woods and all that. I

12:35

said, that's all I can tell you. I

12:37

think you're gonna have to go look for him. And

12:39

she kept saying all kinds of ship that I was

12:41

telling her about the well and

12:44

like I told the cops, I said, no, I never said

12:46

that. Yeah.

12:49

So that voice

12:51

in the background mentioned something about money,

12:53

and the witness confirms who is advising

12:56

him on the call, Like my wife said, this

12:59

does money involved, then they'll do anything

13:02

to convict anybody, and they don't

13:05

give a ship if the person is innocent or

13:07

not. What he's referring to is

13:09

the hundred and fifty thousand dollar reward

13:11

the town County State's Attorney's office

13:14

offered for any information leading

13:16

to an arrest or location of a body in

13:18

the disappearances. That

13:20

said, the witness makes a point. Money

13:24

it changes things for people. I

13:26

also read that Do you

13:29

knew Irene LaRosa a little bit? Right?

13:31

Yeah? Do you think she's from

13:33

what I'm hearing other people telling

13:36

me? She was nothing

13:38

but a goddamn slut? Irene?

13:41

Who's who's saying that? Different

13:43

people would call me up

13:46

from Connecticut and say, hey,

13:48

did you hear about Irene? And you

13:51

know she uh known

13:53

as a slut? I even own

13:55

I took her to bed n and he said that's

13:58

all she does is jumping bed

14:00

with this guy or that guy. I

14:02

said no, I said, I don't want to know anything

14:05

about anybody down there. Do

14:07

you think Irene is missing? I

14:10

don't know. They said she was,

14:15

Yeah, that the missing person report

14:18

was just filed in two thousand sixteen.

14:20

I mean according to the report she went

14:22

missing in Well,

14:25

if they can't find her, she

14:27

is missing. Right. That

14:30

subtle laugh he utters can be construed

14:32

two ways. One he

14:34

knows or two he's

14:37

being facetious. It's

14:39

how he says if they can't

14:41

find her. That bothers me. And

14:44

what's clear as we get into it further, the

14:47

witness is not stupid. I

15:00

need to explain a bit of context here.

15:02

The state police, many of whom I know,

15:05

have stayed at arm's length during my investigations.

15:09

They speak to me. I believe they

15:11

respect me. I've provided them

15:13

with tips since two thousand thirteen,

15:16

but at the same time, they share nothing

15:18

with me. I do get it,

15:22

but things haven't been easy since the newest

15:24

detective on the cases took over about

15:26

two years ago. Now. I first

15:28

met her during a memorial service for Jane's

15:31

pocket. We spoke, I

15:33

handed her my card. I told her

15:35

to give me a call. I had lots of information.

15:38

She never called. She's

15:41

aware of what I've been doing, but it's

15:43

basically been radial silence on her end.

15:45

That is until I emailed her

15:48

to let her know I had spoken with the witness.

15:51

She emailed me back within minutes

15:53

and asked if I could meet with her immediately.

15:57

That alone tells me how important the witness

15:59

and what he has to say is. In particular,

16:02

when you read between the lines of his responses,

16:06

you were in Vietnam right? What

16:09

years did you were you in Vietnam?

16:12

Ah Chef, A

16:15

long while, but

16:17

I mean when all this ship was going on, That's

16:21

where I was. That would have put

16:23

him in Vietnam sometime between

16:25

nineteen to

16:27

nine. Impossible

16:30

for him not to know the dates, and

16:32

even more impossible for him to have been

16:34

in Vietnam in nineteen seventy five.

16:37

When Susan LaRosa went missing. He

16:40

brings up Bob l Rossa again.

16:43

I see him a couple of times after I got

16:45

out. That

16:48

was it. Do you remember

16:50

if Bob drove a station wagon? I

16:55

don't know if he drew the station WAGONA not. That's

16:58

silence before he answers. It

17:00

makes me wonder, do you think Bob

17:02

Larros is a guy who's capable of killing

17:05

his wife? Oh? Yeah.

17:08

The other thing, I did you

17:10

know if Bob worked for the Talent

17:13

School System at all? No,

17:16

I worked for the Tallenge School System.

17:19

Oh you like a janitor or maintenance

17:21

or something, jit

17:23

or whatever. If you recall Janic's

17:25

pockets, medical records from school went

17:28

missing before she disappeared.

17:31

Several sources have told me the witness

17:33

worked for the Talent School System, but

17:35

I needed to verify it for myself.

17:38

Doesn't mean he swiped those records. It

17:41

only means he had the opportunity.

17:44

I also heard Bob was like a scrap metal guy.

17:46

He just drove around collecting scrap metal

17:48

or something. Yeah, and what he

17:50

couldn't find a stole. I

17:55

get a sense the witnesses carefully answering

17:57

me, thinking long and hard about

17:59

what he is saying. For a guy

18:01

who told me when we first got going that

18:03

he didn't know much about any of this and

18:06

didn't even really know Bob Rosa, he

18:08

certainly knows specific details. Listen

18:11

to how he then interrupts my question with

18:14

an answer. And I also read

18:17

in a report that Bernardette

18:19

came over and she clecked

18:22

up the blood, and that, yeah, yeah, cleaned up

18:24

the bloods longer to tell, you

18:26

know, the burning police, not

18:28

the ones they got nowadays, because

18:30

the two of them come up here and they were nice cops,

18:34

and the one back in the day, they

18:36

were crooked as hell. And

18:38

Bobby Larrosa would bring in prostitutes

18:41

and everything, drugs and all that ship

18:43

right into the station and

18:46

very seldom did he ever get a ticket. And

18:49

I mean to say, is he'd be going

18:51

down the road in a twenty five on our

18:53

own, uh,

18:56

doing sixty, and you think, and there's burning

18:58

cops, You think they gotta give me to get dope?

19:01

They put your head down. Did do you

19:03

know if Bob hung out at that Eaglue

19:05

restaurant. I don't know.

19:09

I couldn't tell you say like I

19:11

said, I didn't hang around him. Everybody

19:13

says I hung around him. We jumped around, went

19:15

drinking, and I didn't have a bunch of

19:17

bullshit. The

19:20

witness goes on to tell me he only has one

19:22

lung left, that cancer has taken

19:25

the other from him, and he now has tumors

19:27

all over the remaining lung. Do

19:30

you still smoke? No?

19:33

And I've had I

19:36

want to say two and

19:38

fifty maybe three taken

19:41

off my chest. Remember that memory

19:43

trigger from Stacy LaRosa, Bob

19:45

and Susan's daughter the cherry tobacco

19:48

smoke. The conversation offered

19:50

me the opportunity to now

19:52

get into that did you ever

19:54

smoke? I asked,

19:56

smoked or what? Thirty years ago?

19:59

So regrets? And they checked

20:02

me out and they said it ain't from smoking. They

20:04

said it's that agent Orange.

20:20

I have to admit I'm rather surprised

20:22

the witness has stayed on the phone with me this long.

20:25

Then again, it was because of his lengthy

20:27

phone calls with Tina that prompted

20:30

the police to get the ball rolling

20:32

in my investigation. After

20:34

all these years of staying quiet. You

20:37

have to wonder why he's so willing to talk

20:39

now, and if maybe he had

20:41

injected himself into these cases because

20:44

he felt he had to. And

20:46

as we get started talking again, he

20:48

makes an important point. You're gonna

20:50

find somebody that's gonna say all kinds I should

20:53

about me. I'm

20:55

up here and I'm not down there, because

20:57

uh, I can't defend myself

21:00

with that person. The

21:02

minute they say it, well, I mean, after

21:05

it said, it's out there, so it's going to

21:07

travel. You tell me something

21:09

that's good that travels fast. It doesn't

21:11

if it's bad, it travels

21:13

like wildfire. I mean, what would

21:16

you say to those people who say that you were

21:18

involved in Irene and

21:20

the girls and helping Bob and everything.

21:23

I already told you that I had nothing to do with

21:25

any of them. It's easy to point

21:27

the finger and say he did it or

21:30

she did it, or they did it.

21:33

But to go down and prove me or something else, right,

21:35

right, right? I mean, that's why I'm calling you, That's

21:37

why I'm giving the opportunity to and

21:40

and I told you what I know, which

21:42

ain't very much. And uh,

21:45

like I said, I didn't hurt nobody.

21:47

I didn't kill anybody, and I

21:49

didn't kidnap anybody. It's

21:51

interesting to me that the witness brings in

21:53

kidnapping. I mean kidnapping

21:55

had never been raised in relation

21:58

to any of these cases. I never

22:00

helped anybody do anything against

22:04

any of the girls. That's missing. My

22:07

goal was to begin a conversation and

22:10

keep the channels open. He

22:12

seemed like he had reached his daily limit

22:14

of talking. I mentioned how I'd

22:16

like to call back soon once I learned

22:19

more information. He told

22:21

me to do whatever I wanted. That's

22:23

all I got to say in the matter. Right now. Since

22:31

we last spoke, the witness has gone

22:33

quiet. I wound up calling

22:35

him back no fewer than five times over

22:38

the course of the next several months. He

22:40

never took one call or responded to

22:42

a voicemail. I was told by law

22:44

enforcement that he said he was

22:47

done talking to anyone.

22:50

He said what he needed to say, and it's just

22:52

not enough to locate a body. So

22:55

it's time I move on from him

22:57

and do the one thing I know I

23:00

and do. In

23:10

the final episode of Paper Ghosts,

23:14

I'm scared that they'll find something, and

23:16

then I'm scared that they won't find something. So

23:19

you know, I'm all over the place. We're

23:22

looking for UM.

23:24

Possibly the dogs pacing to slow

23:26

down, head hooks one

23:29

way or the other. UM.

23:32

Usually they slow They slow down and

23:34

get more intense. Memories

23:36

fade, people die, people

23:38

move away, But we don't give

23:41

up. You know, we're still hoping UM

23:43

for that breakthrough. It's gonna give us the answers

23:45

we've been looking for for many, many years. Paper

23:49

Ghosts is written and executive

23:51

produced by me and William Phelps,

23:54

with help from producer Christina Everett

23:56

and sound editing by Pete Cardy from

23:58

Backroom Audio. A special

24:00

thanks to Abu Safar and Will

24:02

Pearson from I Heart Radio. The

24:05

series theme number four four two

24:07

is written and performed by Tom Mooney

24:10

and Thomas Phelps. For more

24:12

podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit

24:15

the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

24:18

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.