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my name is David Runtzman, and this

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is Past, Present, Future. We

0:57

have reached episode three in my

0:59

series of conversations with the historian

1:01

Gary Gerstle about the ideas behind

1:04

American presidential elections. And

1:06

today we have reached what is perhaps the

1:08

most significant election of them all. 1860, the

1:12

one that precipitated the Civil War.

1:15

How did Abraham Lincoln manage to win

1:17

that election? And what might have happened

1:19

if he hadn't? Past,

1:22

Present, Future is brought to you in partnership with

1:24

the London Review of Books. You

1:26

can subscribe at a special rate if

1:29

you just go to lrb.me slash ppf.

1:31

That's lrb.me slash ppf. We've

1:41

reached the election that you could say,

1:43

Gary, is the pivotal election in the

1:45

history of the Republic. The election

1:47

of 1860, it has a

1:49

number of unique features, not

1:52

least what came immediately after it.

1:55

But it's also the one election, maybe

1:57

the only one, where a system

2:00

that is geared to having two parties

2:02

and when the parties become entrenched, I

2:04

mean they're much more entrenched now than

2:06

they were then, but when the parties

2:08

become entrenched it's hard to shift them.

2:12

In 1828 we were talking about the breakup

2:14

of a party system that had reached the

2:16

end of the road. Parties were so divided

2:18

that they had to reform in

2:21

new ways, but in this election

2:23

we're talking about a party that was created

2:26

just a few years before and

2:28

won. So

2:30

essentially a third party coming through, a

2:32

new party being created outside the existing

2:35

system. Its name was the

2:37

Republican Party. It is still called the

2:39

Republican Party and it

2:41

managed to win this election with

2:44

its candidate Abraham Lincoln. So we're going to come

2:46

on to how Lincoln got the candidacy, which is

2:48

a story in itself, but

2:50

the Republican Party was

2:52

created to fight this election on

2:56

a platform that turned on the

2:58

question of slavery and

3:00

specifically the western expansion

3:02

of slavery. So can you

3:04

just give us a sense of where the

3:06

Republican Party placed itself within

3:08

the existing political landscape in

3:11

order to establish itself as

3:13

what was going to become one of the two dominant parties? How

3:15

did it make that pivot?

3:17

Because we've been talking about third parties

3:19

that were special issue parties, the anti-Masonic

3:21

Party, the Prohibition Party. The Republican

3:24

Party is the one third

3:26

party that becomes one

3:29

of the two main parties. How did they do it? The

3:31

central issue of the

3:33

Republican Party has to

3:36

do with the future of slavery in the

3:38

United States. The

3:41

Republican Party was committed to the

3:43

proposition that slavery

3:47

was not a

3:49

workable system for the American

3:51

Republic. There

3:54

were different kinds of Republicans who approached the

3:56

issue of slavery in different ways. Thank

3:58

you. found slavery

4:01

abominable simply from a moral

4:03

point of view and

4:06

wanted emancipation of the

4:08

slaves. And there

4:10

were others who were

4:12

more concerned about the

4:15

effect of a slave system on

4:17

free labor in America. And

4:20

they clung to aspects of

4:22

the Jeffersonian dream that

4:24

this was to be an agrarian nation of independent

4:28

farmers. Using

4:31

their free labor to build

4:33

their families, their households, and

4:35

a prosperous economy.

4:39

Those Republicans were less concerned about

4:42

the welfare of the enslaved

4:44

themselves, and more concerned

4:47

about the contaminating effects of

4:50

a slave system on

4:52

a country aspiring to a free labor

4:54

ideal. There were other

4:56

elements to the Republican Party that converged

4:58

at various points, believed

5:00

in a strong central government

5:02

to develop the

5:05

economy was something that was very important.

5:07

Elements came out of the Know

5:09

Nothing Party, which was a nativist party of

5:13

the 1850s, a hostility toward

5:15

immigration. There was a

5:18

moral tone to the Republican Party that

5:21

expressed itself not simply in regard

5:23

to slavery, but morality, religion,

5:28

who had the capacity to be good Americans. So

5:31

there were other elements, both

5:33

moral and economic, to the Republican Party.

5:35

But its reason for being was

5:38

the conviction that the country

5:41

could not continue

5:43

into the future with

5:46

a slave system that was bent

5:48

on expansion, and

5:51

having a prominent place in

5:54

American society and politics. Before

5:57

We come back to slavery, that moral question... The.

6:00

For this new party, it had

6:02

a series of medical immoral positions.

6:04

But this is in an era

6:06

where there was a clear political

6:08

division of labor between the federal

6:10

government and the states, and at

6:12

the state level, there was a

6:14

lot of highly moralize politics. You've

6:16

written extensively about this to through

6:18

the nineteenth century. To kinda first

6:21

off, my two centuries, which state

6:23

you lived in made a big

6:25

difference to questions like t could

6:27

marry what kind of sexy can

6:29

have your relationship to alcohol. All

6:31

sorts of things that wasn't a

6:33

federal government business. The Federal government

6:36

had a fairly narrow remit. And

6:38

it wasn't a moral remit. The.

6:41

Republican Party is a national party

6:43

or would be national party of

6:45

Federal government. Is. It think

6:47

he of moralizing the federal government. is that

6:49

part of what's going on here. Elements

6:52

of the republican party definitely wanted

6:55

to moralize the central government. The

6:57

campaign for morality it was felt

6:59

cannot be left simpli to local

7:02

governments, state governments that there were

7:04

some issues that have to be

7:06

dealt with at the level of

7:09

the central government and immigration was

7:11

was one of them at obviously.

7:14

Fell within federal jurisdiction from

7:16

the get go, but that's

7:19

an example of designing a

7:21

population that was capable of

7:23

enjoying their privileges that. America

7:26

under the bus circumstances made

7:29

available to. It's people.

7:31

So. The Republican party carries elements of

7:34

morality and it should be said,

7:37

It is a protestant. Morality.

7:40

And the Republican party in a

7:43

sense becomes. A

7:45

more important vehicle as the. Presence.

7:48

Of Irish immigrants in the country

7:50

becomes more pronounced, and there's a

7:52

huge influx of Irish immigrants in

7:54

the eighteen forties as a result

7:56

of the Irish Famine. They are

7:58

over overwhelmingly Roman. Catholic, and

8:01

they encounter the Republican Party

8:04

as an agency

8:06

of oppression because they

8:08

are telling Catholics how to

8:11

live, what Bibles can

8:13

be used in schools, what

8:15

relationship they should have to their own

8:17

religion and the Pope, what liberty-loving Americans

8:19

should value and what they should jettison.

8:23

And the Irish, as a result, overwhelmingly

8:26

feel that they do not have a place

8:28

in the Republican Party and belong in the

8:30

Democratic Party, which ironically, given

8:32

its commitment to slavery, is

8:35

much less intent on

8:37

reforming the masses toward some

8:41

Protestant ideal. So the

8:43

challenge for the Republican Party is to build a

8:45

coalition. This is the challenge for all parties in

8:47

a national system. You can't win as

8:49

a single issue party, whatever the issue, even if the

8:52

issue is slavery. And

8:54

the coalition is a complicated coalition. So like

8:56

you say, it includes elements of some of

8:58

these minor parties, the Know-Nothings. The anti-Masonic Party

9:00

was swept up in the Republican Party. So

9:02

there is that, let's

9:04

call it that paranoid streak rather

9:06

than conspiracy theory streak, but both

9:09

the Know-Nothings and the Anti-Masonic Party

9:11

were organized around the idea of

9:13

plots against America. It had

9:15

to gather together the people who had fallen

9:17

under the heading of the Whigs. As

9:20

you say, it had to

9:22

combine an agrarian vision with

9:24

Northern industrial powerhouse politics. But

9:27

it did face this huge barrier, which is the

9:29

South looked more united. And then the South, as

9:31

you say, was able, its

9:33

political representation was able to draw

9:35

on some sympathy from new immigrants

9:37

in the North. So the Republican

9:39

Party is basically a minority party.

9:41

Its coalition is still not

9:43

really big enough to win

9:46

nationally, yet it does win this election.

9:48

And it seems to me there are two reasons why it wins

9:50

this election. One is because

9:53

the Democrats were

9:55

divided, and the other is

9:57

it probably in the end did choose

9:59

the right. candidate, Abraham

10:01

Lincoln. So let's do the second first, because

10:03

there was a real question here about how

10:05

Lincoln got the nomination. And

10:08

this is a unique election because a

10:10

third party breaks through. There really isn't

10:12

a comparable election, certainly not since. But

10:15

it has a feature which is familiar now, but wasn't true

10:17

of 1828, wasn't true of 1800, which

10:21

is parties chose their candidates through

10:23

these events, and they really

10:25

were events called nominating

10:27

conventions. And

10:29

the Republican convention happened in Illinois, in

10:31

Chicago, the home state of Abraham Lincoln.

10:34

And it was quite an event. And

10:38

Lincoln was not the

10:40

favorite going into that convention, but

10:42

he had established a real name

10:44

for himself through his

10:47

debates with Stephen Douglas, and then a

10:49

celebrated speech that he gave early in

10:53

1860 called the Cooper Union address,

10:55

in which he tried

10:57

to characterize the essence

11:00

of the Republican position on which this election

11:02

was going to be forced. And it was,

11:04

in part, is a long

11:06

speech, again, very worth reading. It

11:09

was in part addressed to the South,

11:12

and not addressed to voters in the

11:14

South trying to persuade them to vote

11:16

Republican. But it was addressed

11:18

to the South in order to persuade

11:20

that coalition to hold together in the

11:22

North. And it could

11:24

be characterized within the Republican spectrum as a

11:27

moderate position. You may disagree with me on

11:29

this. There were certainly people who were more

11:32

extreme in their vehement

11:35

opposition to slavery. There were

11:37

also people who were more conciliatory to the South.

11:40

And Lincoln is, I think, somewhere in the

11:42

middle. So how would

11:44

you characterize, before we get onto how he

11:46

captured the nomination at the convention, how

11:48

would you characterize what Lincoln's position

11:51

was in this spectrum of

11:53

Republican opinion that had to be held together if they were

11:55

going to have any chance of winning the election? Was

11:57

He in the middle? And does the Cooper Union speak? Give

12:00

you that sense of. What

12:03

it was about his approach that in the and when

12:05

the day. He

12:07

is in the middle. A He's a

12:09

moderate republican. Very deliberately so

12:11

because he feels he has to be

12:13

a moderate republican. In

12:16

order to carry the the Republican party

12:18

in the North to. Presidential.

12:20

Victory. There's not much hope that they'll

12:22

have any support in the South, so

12:24

it remains a regional party. And

12:27

so it has to have the biggest possible constituency.

12:29

and it's region. Yes, Because the

12:31

north is itself divided between those

12:33

who are. Opposed

12:36

slavery and every form including it

12:38

as a currently exists in the

12:40

South. and there were those Republicans

12:42

who are willing to tolerate slavery

12:44

in the South as long as

12:46

there be no expansion into the

12:48

territory's in the states that were

12:50

forming out of it. and Lincoln

12:52

belongs. In that second

12:54

camp, the Cooper Institute Speech of Eighteen

12:56

Sixty February is an extraordinary speech and

12:59

it has two components to with the

13:01

first part is. Meant. To

13:04

refute. The. Leading democratic

13:06

contender for the Presidency:

13:08

Stephen Douglas senator from

13:10

Illinois. And. It makes

13:12

the point contra Douglas that the

13:15

founding fathers almost to a man.

13:18

Believe. That slavery was an

13:21

unfortunate set of circumstances. That

13:24

for a variety of reasons had occurred

13:26

or been foisted in the United States.

13:29

And. That it was not equipped

13:31

to survive and flourish. Across.

13:36

The. Long history that was imagine for

13:38

the Republic and that it would

13:40

gradually die out at it contained.

13:44

Moral. Evils that did not belong

13:46

in the present day world. But.

13:49

Lincoln added for the sake of founding

13:51

this new nation and in recognition of.

13:54

The. Fact that. Half. The

13:56

Colonies were. Slave. States.

14:00

that the Constitutional Convention could not undertake

14:03

to eliminate slavery from

14:05

those colonies becoming states that slavery

14:08

would have to be tolerated there.

14:11

But only where it already existed. Only

14:13

where it already existed. And

14:15

much of the speech that Lincoln

14:18

gives is a close exegesis of

14:22

founding father writings and

14:24

intentions where he goes through point

14:26

by point to demonstrate how

14:28

many founding fathers on so

14:30

many occasions imagined that slavery

14:32

in America was going to die out sometime

14:35

in the 19th century. What

14:38

Lincoln is doing here is claiming

14:40

constitutional justification

14:44

for his position that

14:46

slavery must not be allowed to

14:48

expand beyond its current boundaries

14:51

because it was not suitable for

14:54

the future of the United States. And also

14:56

crucially that it is the federal government

14:58

that decides that it cannot be,

15:01

as Douglas and others were arguing, left up

15:03

to the new states at the

15:05

state level to choose whether or not they should be

15:07

slave states or free states. It

15:10

is within the remit and the jurisdiction

15:12

of the federal government. So it is an argument not

15:14

just about slavery, but about what

15:17

we might now call the competence of

15:19

the central government to act. They

15:22

have the authority to be the

15:25

deciding institution

15:29

in terms of determining where slavery could

15:31

go and where it could not. And

15:35

at the same time, Lincoln reaffirms

15:37

the other point, that

15:40

slavery would be allowed to continue where

15:43

it was already established. And

15:46

that's his way of saying that if he were

15:49

to be elected president, he

15:51

would make no effort to interfere with

15:53

the slave regimes of

15:55

the southern states. He felt

15:57

this was an important message to convey.

16:00

not just to the southern states, because who knew

16:02

whether they would accept this? And I think he

16:04

probably suspected they wouldn't. But

16:07

there were an awful lot of northerners

16:10

living in what was called the Lower North,

16:13

meaning the southern portions of

16:15

Illinois, Indiana, Ohio,

16:19

who lived in proximate

16:23

vicinity of

16:25

the slave states and of slave societies, who

16:28

had in their ranks many

16:30

who had been southerners, who had families in the

16:32

South. And

16:35

he believed he had a found a way

16:37

to bring these people on

16:39

board into his coalition, so that even if his

16:41

message did not work for the South, although he

16:43

hoped it would, he

16:45

did see it as indispensable for

16:48

making sure that Republican enthusiasm in

16:50

the North would be at the

16:53

level to carry them

16:55

to a possible victory. And

16:58

this is the message that he tries

17:01

to convey in a brief excerpt that

17:04

I'll read from the Cooper

17:06

Institute speech given in February

17:08

1860. These are Lincoln's words, "...let

17:12

all who believe that our fathers who frame

17:14

the government under which we live understood

17:17

this question, the question

17:19

of whether the federal government had the

17:21

power to control slavery in federal territories

17:24

just as well, and even better than

17:26

we do now, speak as they

17:28

spoke and act as they acted upon

17:30

it." This is all

17:33

Republicans ask, all Republicans

17:35

desire in relation to slavery. As

17:38

those fathers marked it, so

17:40

let it be again marked. As

17:43

an evil not to be extended, but

17:45

to be tolerated and protected, only

17:48

because of and so far as its

17:50

actual presence among us makes

17:53

that toleration and protection a

17:56

necessity. Let all

17:58

the guarantees those fathers gave That.

18:01

The. Not grudgingly, But.

18:03

Fully. And. Fairly maintained,

18:06

For. This republicans content. And.

18:09

With this so far as I know

18:11

and believe. They. Will be

18:13

content. When.

18:15

I read the speech and I

18:18

compared it because I just recently

18:20

read her nullification proclamation to buy

18:22

Jackson. The. One that

18:24

we talked about last time. The. Rhetoric

18:26

is very different. It's much less angry.

18:29

Face is confronting the south. As

18:32

you say with a message for the North

18:34

in the way his confronting the South's t

18:36

saying thus far no further. This is what

18:39

will not stand but this is what will

18:41

be allowed. It is deliberately designed to be

18:43

reasonable. But. To

18:45

things really stood out for me about it One

18:47

is the fact that this is as we might

18:49

not cool An originalist interpretations of the argument is

18:52

what did the founders really think? What they want?

18:54

What are they sign up to? What did they

18:56

say? But he's turning

18:58

it back on his opponents in the South

19:00

because he knows that they are trying to

19:03

make a claim on a rich in this

19:05

grounds that trying to locate slavery in the

19:07

founding of the Republic and he's in the

19:09

speech consistently says to them i am just

19:11

saying to you what you have said you

19:14

will agree with which is you will abide

19:16

by the origins of this republic's or if

19:18

we can all agree that these men did

19:20

not see the institution of slavery expanding outside

19:23

of it's pre existing states and certainly they

19:25

wouldn't dream of allowing new states to decide

19:27

for. Themselves how they fitted into this

19:29

arrangement, you have to agree that we

19:32

do have a common ground here. and

19:34

then the second saying which it does

19:36

have in common with the nullification proclamation.

19:39

Is. It's part of the preemptive blame

19:41

game. Like if this thing ends and

19:43

bloodshed and chaos. Who

19:46

is responsible? And. lincoln says

19:48

in the speech to the south and a

19:50

famous passes i'm gonna paraphrase it here but

19:52

he says to his southern opponents you are

19:54

like a highway man who says stand and

19:56

deliver and adidas and i've your money and

19:59

i have to you, you're responsible for

20:01

murder. It'll be your fault. You will be

20:03

the murderer because I gave you a choice.

20:06

You didn't do what I told you to do. So I had to

20:08

kill you. I if the union

20:10

ends, the South is saying it'll be the fault of the

20:12

North. And Lincoln

20:14

says, you're like a highwayman who says,

20:16

if you don't

20:18

abide by my terrible, violent

20:21

threats, you are responsible for

20:23

the consequences. And that bit

20:25

is furious and uncompromising. That's

20:27

the bit of the speech where

20:29

it's not sort of exegesis of

20:31

the origins of the constitution. It's

20:33

raw political anger. If this thing

20:35

ends in bloodshed, how dare you?

20:38

How dare you say we brought

20:40

it about? And that to

20:42

me is the bit that sounds like Jackson. I'm

20:46

paraphrasing Lincoln here. I'm speaking to you

20:48

as the founding fathers would speak to

20:50

you and I speak with

20:52

their authority. So yes, it comes in the

20:54

language of reason, but

20:57

with a powerful fist behind

21:00

it. I would also add that

21:04

the reasonableness of Lincoln, and this

21:08

is also an explanation for why his reasonableness

21:10

didn't work very well, is

21:13

against a background of mounting

21:16

discord, anger, fears

21:20

of insurrection, the two sides drifting

21:23

further and further apart simply in the

21:25

previous three years.

21:30

The first incident that has to be mentioned is

21:32

the Dred Scott Supreme Court decision of 1857, which

21:34

ruled on whether slaves taken into

21:41

free territory by their masters, where

21:44

slavery was not allowed, could

21:47

make a claim on freedom. And

21:50

the answer the Supreme Court gave

21:53

was no, they are property of

21:55

men that belong to the slave owners. They

21:57

are to be treated as private property. They're not

21:59

to be. treated as human beings. And

22:02

then the Supreme Court Chief Justice

22:04

Taney goes beyond that to say,

22:08

African Americans will never be citizens of the

22:10

United States. They cannot be

22:12

citizens of the United States. They

22:15

constitute an inferior people and

22:18

capable of being full members

22:20

of the American Republic ever.

22:26

Taney should not have gone there. He thought he

22:28

was taking a bold step that

22:30

would resolve this issue, bring clarity to it.

22:33

This inflames abolitionist

22:36

sentiment in the

22:38

North enormously and

22:41

drives the two sections much further

22:43

apart and broils them

22:45

in anger. And then in 1859 comes

22:48

John Brown's attack

22:52

on a federal arsenal in

22:54

Harper's Ferry, Virginia. He

22:57

and a band of armed men attacked.

23:00

They had links with various groups

23:02

of enslaved people and they hoped to inspire

23:04

a general slave insurrection.

23:06

This is in 1859. Never

23:11

had a chance of success. The

23:13

enslaved were in a

23:16

way too smart

23:18

to join this wild attempt

23:20

at insurrection. But

23:23

the insurrection itself and the bloody

23:25

battle that unfolded at Harper's Ferry

23:29

engenders in the South their

23:32

greatest fear that the

23:34

enslaved will at some point rise

23:37

up against them, led

23:39

by crazy abolitionists of the

23:41

North, like John

23:43

Brown. So you have

23:45

this mounting radicalism on

23:47

both sides and

23:50

a palpable sense that

23:53

the center can no

23:55

longer hold.

23:58

And it is into this context. that

24:01

Lincoln enters his plea for

24:04

reasonableness. Understanding at

24:07

some level that he's

24:09

going to try his utmost to do that, but

24:11

also being the sagacious shrewd

24:14

politician that he was, probably understanding

24:17

that it probably was not going to work. But

24:19

he did want to make an effort to

24:22

pose as someone who, even though

24:25

he considered slavery to be a moral evil,

24:28

would respect the South as

24:31

it was given life by

24:34

the founding fathers. So these

24:37

are tremulous, frightening times

24:40

on both sides. And

24:42

because I think he did not expect much

24:44

support in the South, his message of reasonableness

24:47

is an effort to keep whites

24:49

of the lower North on

24:52

board his coalition. When

24:54

you put it like that, it is surprising that he won, because

24:57

he's got two barriers to overcome here.

25:00

Yes, he's somewhere in the middle of Republican

25:03

politics, the spectrum of Republican politics

25:05

that runs from sympathizers

25:08

with the South through

25:10

to furious abolitionists.

25:13

And just as the North and South are

25:15

moving further apart, also passions are running high

25:17

in the North. It's hard to be

25:19

in the middle, and it didn't

25:21

look coming into the convention as

25:23

though he had majority support. There

25:26

was a preferred candidate, it looked like, who

25:28

was William Seward, who comes

25:31

out of actually originally the anti-Masonic party.

25:33

I believe the first party he belonged

25:35

to is the anti-Masonic party. He

25:37

was more of a nativist than

25:40

Lincoln was, and he was also in some

25:42

ways more of a hardliner than

25:44

Lincoln was. And he looked like he was much

25:46

better placed to capture the

25:48

anger that there was. But

25:51

Lincoln beat him. And then the

25:53

second challenge he has to overcome is this

25:56

new party, the Republican Party, is never

25:58

going to win a majority. of the

26:00

national vote. It's either the path to

26:03

victory electorally is really complicated. It's

26:05

quite hard given no votes are going to be won in the

26:07

South to get enough votes to

26:09

become president, but he overcomes both of

26:12

these barriers. So the first one, how

26:14

does he win the nomination? And this

26:16

convention was a pretty raucous,

26:18

passionate affair and they're very dramatic

26:20

events. They have these great twists of fortune.

26:22

You go through these votes and the first

26:24

vote, Seward was way ahead of Lincoln. And

26:27

then people switched and they switched and to his

26:29

amazement, Seward thought he was going to win. And

26:32

he found that this upstart lawyer

26:35

who happened to be from Illinois, where the

26:38

convention was taking place had stolen the nomination

26:40

from under his nose. So there

26:42

is a reading of this, which it wasn't all the great

26:44

rhetoric. It wasn't the Cooper speech.

26:46

It wasn't the debates with

26:48

Douglas. Lincoln was a genius.

26:52

He was a genius and he was a genius of oratory,

26:54

but he won the convention through hard

26:57

politicking. And he wasn't

26:59

there himself. This was still the age where the candidate

27:01

didn't show up in person. So

27:04

it had to be done by proxy. He didn't

27:06

give a speech at the convention. There wasn't some great

27:08

piece of oratory that swayed the crowds. Lincoln

27:12

was always a shrewd politician and

27:15

part of his genius was

27:17

not just his oratory, but

27:20

his understanding

27:22

of how politics work

27:25

and what one would need to do to

27:27

get one's name near

27:29

the top. I think Lincoln

27:31

was helped by two factors. One, Seward

27:34

had a lot of enemies. One

27:37

of the functions of having a long successful career

27:39

is that you

27:41

get a lot of people angry at you at one time or another.

27:44

And he had many more enemies than

27:47

Lincoln, who was a relative

27:49

unknown. And American politics does

27:52

have a certain fondness for

27:55

candidates coming out of the

27:57

wilderness, unsullied by the political

27:59

game. came, rising

28:01

to the occasion, saving

28:04

the Republic. And

28:06

Lincoln the rail splitter, who had not held

28:08

office since 1846, gave

28:12

him an air of purity. He's

28:15

not beholden. He

28:17

can do what's necessary. And there was a sense

28:19

that Seward either

28:22

was beholden or had enemies that would prevent him

28:24

from getting the job done. The

28:26

other element that hurt Seward is that he

28:29

was more militant on the

28:31

slavery question than Lincoln was. He

28:33

called it on numerous occasions

28:35

an irrepressible conflict. So

28:37

it was not simply a matter of letting

28:40

the South do what the South did. He was

28:42

forecasting that the conflict

28:44

was irrepressible. It would come. The

28:47

North would triumph. He

28:49

had a record of being more confrontational.

28:52

And there was worry that if

28:54

he were the one nominated, that

28:57

this critical portion of the North that I'm

28:59

referring to as the lower North that has

29:01

proximity to the South and many Southerners living

29:03

there would not support him, seeing

29:06

him as Northeastern, too

29:09

close to the abolitionist group in the

29:11

party, not trustworthy. So

29:14

Lincoln benefited from the perception that

29:17

in today's parlance

29:19

further to the left on the

29:22

question of abolishing slavery than

29:24

Lincoln was. Lincoln didn't talk about the

29:26

abolition of slavery. He talked about stopping

29:29

its spread. And then the expectation was it

29:31

would die. This moral evil would die of

29:33

its own accord. The

29:35

other element that helped him was the location

29:37

of the convention in Chicago in its home

29:40

state. And if you

29:42

weren't going to campaign yourself, you had

29:44

to have legions of people campaigning for you.

29:47

And American party

29:49

practice is progressing by leaps

29:52

and bounds, presidential

29:54

election year by presidential election

29:56

year. And his supporters were

30:00

out in very large numbers. They

30:03

were loud, they were boisterous,

30:05

they were carnivalesque. To

30:09

be successful in politics, you

30:11

had to make it into a kind of public

30:14

theater. It

30:16

gained its character then, and it still remains

30:18

public theater in America

30:21

today. And the

30:23

demonstrations, celebrations, the

30:26

gathering of Lincoln

30:28

strategic players in

30:31

a place called the wigwam to plot

30:34

strategy. They

30:36

were state of the art, and they were

30:38

well positioned to take

30:41

advantage of a convention that they

30:43

thought would opened up if

30:45

Seward didn't get the nomination on the first ballot.

30:49

And so the goal for Lincoln,

30:51

here's an example of strategic thinking,

30:54

just survive the first ballot,

30:57

deny Seward the nomination with

31:00

the majority for the first time, then

31:02

they felt they would be able

31:04

to begin to peel delegates away

31:06

from Seward to the support of

31:09

Lincoln. And that is exactly

31:11

what happened. And

31:13

the second barrier to be overcome is

31:15

to win the general election, which he

31:17

does with less than 40% of the

31:19

popular vote, which again makes his election

31:21

a complete outlier. We're going to talk

31:23

about another one in 1912, where

31:25

you get a split set

31:28

of candidates, so you don't need to win a majority

31:31

of the popular vote. But

31:34

nonetheless, that's low. And

31:37

his opponents were different stripes

31:39

of representatives of the Democratic

31:42

Party. The South was

31:44

more split than the North. And

31:46

that's the reason why Lincoln won. If his

31:49

opponents had been united against him, less

31:52

than 40% of the vote is not going to get you the

31:54

presidency. But the South was split. And

31:57

it was split, I guess similarly, but at

31:59

the other end of the scale to

32:02

the north, the radicals, the confrontationalists,

32:04

the people who were not willing

32:06

to compromise at any price, people

32:09

who were somewhere in the middle, and then

32:11

the people who were actually quite close to

32:13

the north and were about defending the union

32:15

at all costs. You had southern unionists, you

32:18

had southerners who were spoiling for

32:20

war, and you had the people

32:22

in the middle. That split looks,

32:24

maybe it's with hindsight, but it looks harder

32:28

to bridge than the splits that Lincoln faced.

32:30

The south looked more divided, and that seems

32:32

to be the reason why Lincoln run. Is

32:34

that fair? I would put it

32:37

slightly differently. I wouldn't say

32:39

that the south was so split, even though

32:41

there were different factions in the south, but

32:44

that the northern part of the Democratic Party was

32:48

hopelessly split from the southern part

32:50

of the Democratic Party. The Democratic

32:52

Party had been a national party.

32:54

They had the obligation of holding together

32:57

this party in

32:59

the midst of this chasm

33:03

that seemed to admit of no compromise.

33:08

And the crucial event, I

33:11

think, that doomed the Democratic Party

33:13

and made the bridging of

33:15

this chasm impossible was

33:19

the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854, which

33:21

was put forward by Stephen Douglas,

33:26

prominent member of the Democratic

33:28

Party in the north Illinois.

33:31

Stephen Douglas wants to be president.

33:33

He becomes senator, which

33:37

is a road to the presidency, and he's trying

33:40

to figure out how, given

33:42

this deep divide between the north and south, how

33:45

can the Democratic Party possibly

33:47

survive? He needs

33:49

a formula for pleasing the north and

33:52

the south in terms of

33:54

westward expansion. What does he do?

33:56

He proposes and gets Congress to pass the

33:59

campaign. the Kansas-Nebraska Act that

34:01

says this about westward expansion,

34:05

we, the Democratic Party, then the

34:07

country, we will not prevent

34:10

it, we will not encourage it. We

34:12

will make, whether slavery establishes

34:14

itself in the new states, a

34:18

factor or a consequence of

34:20

popular sovereignty, we

34:23

will let the people decide. The people of

34:25

those territories will decide whether they will be

34:27

a slave state or a free state. Looks

34:30

brilliant. America's all

34:32

about popular sovereignty, we

34:35

the people. And

34:38

so Douglas thought that this would please the north

34:40

and it would please the

34:42

south, but he hadn't

34:44

thought through the ramifications of

34:47

what this piece of

34:49

legislation yielded. Kansas,

34:54

Nebraska are territories on the

34:56

cusp of statehood. Would they be

34:58

free? Would they be slave? Settlers

35:02

from the south and settlers from

35:04

the north are rushing into

35:06

these territories to

35:10

form a majority for

35:12

their region. And

35:14

they understand the stakes involved

35:18

and they confront

35:21

each other, go to war with each

35:23

other, kill each other. So

35:26

much so that Kansas becomes known as

35:30

bloody Kansas. The

35:32

Kansas-Nebraska Act is an example

35:35

of unintended consequences. You

35:38

let the people decide what can be a

35:40

more American solution, but

35:43

the actual evolution of the

35:46

conflict intensifies

35:50

as groups from the north and the south

35:52

prepare to flood into any territory on the

35:54

cusp of becoming a state to

35:56

make sure that that state will go in the direction they

35:59

want. wanted to go. And so

36:02

the effect of the Kansas-Nebraska Act

36:04

is to, in a sense, pit

36:06

Northern Democrats against Southern

36:08

Democrats. More and more Northern Democrats leave

36:10

to join the Republican Party. And

36:14

the Southern Democrats never

36:16

forgive Stephen

36:18

Douglas for

36:21

being the architect of

36:23

this act. He is the

36:25

most prominent Democratic figure

36:29

in 1860. He's going to

36:31

get the nomination. He doesn't get it easily because

36:33

Southerners walk out of his convention. They

36:36

are so angry with him

36:38

about allowing the possibility that

36:40

new territories might become free states, that

36:45

they can never, under any circumstances,

36:48

accept his leadership. And

36:50

this is what makes the split in

36:53

the Democratic Party irreparable

36:55

and allows a

36:58

candidate in the Republican Party who gets less than

37:00

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37:03

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38:18

is Douglas' position, as you've just described it there,

38:20

that Lincoln was arguing against after all in

38:23

the Cooper speech, the idea that the states

38:25

could decide for themselves. He says no, the

38:27

founders were absolutely clear this is a federal

38:29

government matter. So it is Douglas that he's

38:31

taking on there. As

38:33

you say, northern Democrats, many of

38:35

them switch and move

38:37

over to the Republicans. Then

38:40

you've got a sense of betrayal

38:42

in the South. You still have

38:44

some Southerners who do not want a civil

38:46

war and will pay almost any price to

38:48

avoid it. Is it also true that

38:50

we reached a point here which means we've moved

38:52

away from the first part of the 19th century

38:55

where if the South get their act

38:57

together, they can hold the

38:59

presidency essentially. A few

39:01

votes here and there in other places, but partly

39:03

because of the three-fifths

39:06

compromise, if that's the word for it, the

39:08

demography still just about works. But at

39:10

this point, the Democratic

39:13

Party without some northern element is

39:15

just not enough. So even if

39:18

the South had overcome the divisions

39:20

that were still there between the people who

39:22

were spoiling for a fight, the people who

39:24

are desperate to avoid a fight, but if

39:26

the South had come together, the fact that

39:28

the northern Democrats had been lost, that was

39:30

enough to scupper them. I mean,

39:32

I'm taking from you that actually I misdescribed this

39:34

by saying it was Southern splits. A

39:37

united North defeats a united South

39:39

in electoral terms. The

39:42

prize either goes to the person who holds

39:44

their coalition together where the other splits or

39:46

to the one that can reach across the

39:48

divide. At this point, no one was reaching

39:50

across the divide, but

39:52

the South was still, in electoral

39:54

terms, doomed at this point.

39:57

I can't identify the figure who could

39:59

have held the northern

40:02

and southern Democrats together. Perhaps

40:05

if a northerner had repudiated

40:11

Douglas's doctrine of

40:13

popular sovereignty and

40:17

ensured the expansion of slavery

40:19

into the west, that

40:21

would have brought

40:24

the south closer to

40:27

the north. But I think

40:29

the northern Democratic voters, most of

40:31

them, were

40:33

not prepared to abandon the doctrine of

40:35

popular sovereignty and to

40:38

grant this kind of power to what

40:40

was called the slave power. They

40:42

were not willing to do this. This, by the way,

40:44

did not make them egalitarians. It did

40:46

not make them promoters

40:48

of racial equality. Many

40:51

Democrats, even in the north, were quite

40:53

vicious racists and believed that the

40:56

enslaved were not capable of free labor.

40:59

But the idea that Democrats

41:02

in the north should be able to travel

41:04

into western states, make it into

41:07

a free state, make it into a shrine for free

41:09

labor, I

41:11

think any Democrat who renounced that

41:14

policy would not have been

41:16

embraced by northern Democrats. So it's a long-winded way

41:18

of saying, I can't identify

41:21

another person who could have held

41:23

this party together. And it's the doom of the

41:26

Democratic Party that makes Lincoln's

41:29

election possible.

41:31

And that renders his

41:34

judgment about being a moderate that

41:36

can hold the more

41:38

conservative Republicans and the more radical

41:40

Republicans together an

41:42

extremely shrewd move. Because this

41:44

division of the Democrats between

41:47

north and south, he understood

41:50

very clearly and very precisely, and

41:53

he was going to do everything in his

41:55

power to widen that

41:57

split. intimacy

42:00

did he have as president,

42:03

presumably almost none in the South? I mean,

42:05

how much of this was a foregone conclusion?

42:07

In the Cooper Institute speech, he more or

42:09

less says the South

42:12

will not accept the election of a Republican

42:14

president. And now he's laying out why that's

42:16

an unreasonable position because he is a Republican

42:19

and he's a reasonable man and a reasonable

42:21

politician. So they must be the unreasonable ones

42:23

because they have indicated what are they against?

42:26

They're against a Republican becoming president

42:28

of the United States. Then

42:31

a Republican does become president of

42:33

the United States. Abraham Lincoln, he's

42:35

a moderate Republican, nonetheless. Is there

42:37

any way in which his

42:39

legitimacy as president would have been recognized in

42:41

the South or is this as the ship

42:43

sailed at this point? I believe there are

42:46

six states that as soon as Lincoln's

42:49

victory becomes clear,

42:51

declare their intention to secede.

42:54

So they've gone? They haven't gone,

42:56

but they're going and the Confederacy

42:59

is much larger than that.

43:01

So there are, these are mostly

43:04

states in the deep South led

43:06

by South Carolina. Calhoun is dead by

43:08

this point, but it's his

43:10

state that's leading the way and other

43:14

deep South states. There are border

43:16

states, Kentucky,

43:19

Tennessee, Maryland,

43:23

Delaware. Their disposition

43:25

is not clear. They have plenty of

43:27

unionists in them.

43:30

What follows is a politics

43:33

of secession or

43:35

a politics of assembling a Confederacy. How

43:39

big will the Confederacy be? How many of the

43:41

slave states will join

43:44

their forces? There

43:46

are strong elements of

43:48

unionists in the South

43:50

who don't want to see the country Torn

43:53

Apart. These are in some ways the

43:56

heirs of Jackson who believe that the

43:58

union can never be dismembered. The.

44:00

I can never be allowed to happen. And

44:03

it'll be a disgrace on those who do. They'll

44:06

be disgrace on those who do it.

44:08

So these constituencies. Are.

44:11

Present in the south and there

44:13

is a moment where it it

44:15

looks like some possible alliance might

44:17

be possible. You have a

44:20

group of democrats in the South

44:22

who hate Douglas, who former. Pro.

44:25

Slavery states right party. but you have

44:27

another group of. Southerners

44:30

who former union constitution was party.

44:32

These are the heirs of Jackson.

44:34

They want they embrace slavery but

44:36

they want the Union to survive.

44:39

They. Run a candidate. Is that

44:41

candidate had allied with. Lincoln

44:43

would have given Lincoln a majority.

44:46

So there was theoretically a group.

44:48

the Southern Democrats. Pro.

44:50

Union. With the

44:52

numbers. Both. In the popular vote

44:55

and the electoral vote to render Lincoln's. Victory.

44:58

Majority. But in the circumstances that

45:00

eighteen, sixteen, early eighties, sixty one

45:02

to let. Cooler heads

45:05

prevail. Was a

45:07

project. The. On the ability

45:09

of. Most ordinary.

45:12

Mortals. And the

45:14

fiery abolitionists. In.

45:17

The North how their counterparts

45:19

in South. A recall fi

45:22

readers and they had committed

45:24

to secession and an independent

45:27

Confederate Republic. Months

45:29

in some cases, years before

45:31

and in the circumstances of

45:34

Lincoln selection. And.

45:37

The South Reckoning. Will.

45:41

What my? confront them when Lincoln

45:43

became President. Of

45:45

the fire eaters, Dramatically.

45:49

Enlarge their constituency and.

45:52

Say we are the Future. We

45:54

are the last line of defense for the

45:56

Southern slave system and for the Seven way

45:58

of Life. You must

46:01

follow us. He

46:04

must join us and give us the

46:06

upper hand. When.

46:09

You're in dire circumstances of that

46:11

sort. We know from. The.

46:14

World in which we currently inhabit, the can be

46:16

very very hard for cooler heads to. Prevail.

46:19

So it's. Very difficult for me

46:21

to imagine. The genie

46:23

was out of the bottle and. It's

46:26

hard for me to imagine way in which could

46:28

have been stuff stuff back in. One

46:32

thing that can be said for

46:34

the legitimacy of the Lincoln Presidency

46:36

is that quite soon there was

46:38

a rival president, Jefferson Davis. And

46:40

whatever you think about the circumstances

46:42

in which Lincoln one his presidency

46:44

through the convention with less than

46:47

forty percent of the vote, Jefferson

46:49

Davis became President by nomination. For.

46:51

Originally and then there was an

46:53

election in the South. I think

46:55

maybe forty or forty five thousand

46:57

people voted compared to the millions

46:59

who are voting in presidential elections

47:01

by those standards. When Lincoln did

47:03

at least have the advantage the

47:06

past assassin point. There. Were two

47:08

rivals claiming to be Jeff Davis wasn't

47:10

trying to be president of the Union,

47:12

but claiming to be president of an

47:14

independent country linked and suddenly looked like

47:16

the candidates who had got it. to

47:19

legitimate way. Yes, He

47:21

did, but it did make much difference to

47:24

him those joining the. Confederacy.

47:26

It's always struck me that what's

47:28

extraordinary about Lincoln's presidency is for

47:30

all of the reasons that those

47:32

he rejected it rejected it through

47:34

out it was contested. He had

47:36

to fight for it, He had

47:38

to fight midterm elections, and Sixty

47:40

two, he had to get reelected

47:42

Sixty four, which was no forgone

47:44

conclusion. He. Had to politik all

47:46

the way through. Jefferson. Davis

47:48

was more like a king. And

47:50

the executive power, the Confederate States,

47:53

was more concentrated. And

47:55

the executive power that Lincoln was able to wield

47:57

himself to Civil War. So it's it's an eye.

48:00

that a region privileging

48:02

states' rights and local government

48:05

establishes a new central government

48:08

for themselves that in

48:10

many respects had more power and

48:12

less protection for individual freedoms. And

48:14

the man they claimed was a tyrant was

48:16

constantly fighting rearguard battles just to

48:19

stay in office. I want

48:21

to give you one other counterfactual here.

48:25

As you say, Lincoln just

48:27

had to stay in the first ballot at

48:29

the convention in Chicago, and then

48:32

he had a pretty good chance. But that was quite

48:34

iffy. So it was touch and

48:36

go, and he could have been knocked out of

48:38

the race very first time around. Seward

48:40

could have won it. This is one

48:42

of those counterfactuals where it seems to me that

48:45

it wouldn't have taken a big kink in the

48:47

historical story to get a very different outcome. Burr

48:50

as president, even though it was another very, very

48:52

close election, it's quite a stretch to get Burr

48:54

to the presidency. It's not such

48:56

a stretch to get Seward to the presidency, especially since

48:58

we know you could win it with 40% of the

49:00

vote. How

49:04

different would the history of the Republic have been

49:06

if Lincoln had lost on that first ballot? So

49:09

Seward, you say, might not have held the North

49:11

together. He was a very

49:14

skillful politician in his own right. He served

49:16

in Lincoln's cabinet, and he was a loyal,

49:18

though frustrated, servant of the

49:20

Lincoln administration. He prosecuted the Civil

49:22

War with zeal, but

49:25

had he been president, there's

49:27

presumably a chance that the thing

49:29

that Lincoln's moderate position allowed him

49:31

to achieve, which was to hold

49:34

together the constituency, the coalition that

49:36

was needed to fight this war,

49:39

that would have broken apart. Is

49:41

that one of those forks in the

49:43

road in American history where you could get

49:45

a very different world? Well,

49:48

here's a more interesting counterfactual. I'm looking at

49:50

the numbers of votes that Lincoln got and

49:52

that Stephen Douglas got. Lincoln

49:56

got 1.9 million votes. Douglas got 1.4

49:58

million votes. The

50:01

really tantalizing counterfactual is

50:04

this, if Seward had won

50:07

the nomination, would he have prevailed in

50:09

the election? So you think he wouldn't even have got

50:11

to 40%? He might

50:13

not have. And Douglas was at

50:15

30%. Could Douglas

50:17

have peeled off enough conservative

50:20

Republicans in

50:23

the North? In the way that Lincoln

50:25

peeled off enough Northern Democrats?

50:27

Yes. He'd be victorious.

50:31

That's really tantalizing. Then we can really imagine.

50:34

So that is a very different world where Stephen

50:36

Douglas is President of the United States in

50:38

1860. What does happen then? He's

50:41

no Jackson, right? So he doesn't hold the Union

50:43

together. As you say, he's from Illinois. He

50:46

doesn't hold the Union together that way. He

50:48

may have mollified the South by allowing

50:52

Southerners to flood into the territories

50:56

and also establish after a period of violence

50:58

a bunch of slave states. So

51:00

it's possible to imagine the continuation

51:03

of slavery, which Douglas was prepared to

51:05

tolerate and the South may have accommodated

51:07

themselves to that. In other words, there

51:10

may have been a rapprochement

51:13

if Douglas had won between

51:15

himself and the Southerners, rendering the

51:18

Democratic Party, at least for another 10

51:20

or 20 years, a majority party

51:24

again. In mind the comparison

51:26

to when slavery went extinct in other

51:30

societies in the New World, Cuba

51:32

and Brazil, both the 1880s. So

51:35

it's not impossible to imagine a form of

51:37

slavery continuing in the United States for another

51:39

20 years. If

51:41

Seward had won, what would have

51:43

been different? Here I think we get

51:46

into questions of how

51:49

would Seward have managed the war. There would

51:51

have been war. So that would not have

51:53

changed. The South would have

51:55

been, if it's possible, even more

51:57

alarmed at Seward's election as president

51:59

then. at Lincoln. So

52:02

secession would have occurred, war would have occurred,

52:05

I think, to the crucial moments of transition

52:09

and the North's campaign against the South.

52:11

For the first couple years, the Northern

52:13

armies did not do very well. The

52:15

Southerners were better organized, they had better

52:17

military leadership. They

52:20

came within a whisker at Gettysburg of winning, and

52:22

if the North had lost at that point, if

52:26

we go back to Lincoln, he would

52:28

have lost. If he had lost to

52:30

Gettysburg, he probably would have lost the

52:32

1864 election to a Northern Democrat. The

52:35

question is, would Seward have prosecuted the

52:37

war more or less successfully

52:40

than Lincoln?

52:44

Would he have come out of it the

52:46

same way Lincoln did with the victory, ultimately

52:48

finding the right generals, finding enough, getting

52:50

enough victories to win in 1864 to

52:54

give the North a chance to finish the job, or

52:56

would Seward have handled it

52:58

more poorly? One could argue that a

53:00

far more experienced man in political affairs

53:03

than Lincoln. I think of someone

53:06

who had not held public office since 1846, suddenly

53:11

not only coming into office, but

53:13

confronting what some people consider to be the

53:15

first total war of the modern age,

53:19

having had no experience in public life,

53:22

except briefly as a state

53:24

representative. Would Seward

53:26

have handled that situation better

53:29

than Lincoln? You

53:31

might argue that he would have, but

53:34

it's also the case that Seward

53:36

would have been faced with moments

53:39

of grave crisis where the

53:41

victory of the North was in doubt. I

53:44

simply can't answer the question of whether he

53:46

would have made the same or better decisions than Lincoln,

53:49

or whether he may have avoided some of the

53:52

grave moments

53:54

that threatened the very existence of the Union. I can

53:57

pose the question, but I can't answer it. So let me have

53:59

a one more go at it, putting it slightly

54:01

differently. Who knows what

54:04

judgments they would have made? Lincoln made

54:06

some bad judgments, and he made some great

54:08

judgments. He was a completely remarkable man, and

54:10

Stuart came to view him as not

54:13

just a worthy president, but a remarkable

54:15

president. He was

54:17

the moderate. There

54:19

were reluctant Republicans. There were

54:21

reluctant Northerners in this war,

54:24

and Lincoln managed to hold that

54:26

together. There was presumably a risk

54:29

that Stuart's candidacy, which

54:31

would have spoken more directly to the

54:33

people who were more directly

54:36

opposed to slavery, not just to

54:38

expansion, but to slavery. It would

54:40

have alienated some of the people that Lincoln

54:42

kept in the fold. I'm just very conscious

54:44

that the history of the Civil War is

54:46

a precarious history. It's not just bad

54:49

decisions were made and there were twists of fate.

54:53

Certainly early on, the North could have lost that war.

54:57

The first job was to survive the war

54:59

in order then to be able to win

55:01

it, and Lincoln survived partly through skill and

55:04

partly because he was the moderate Republican. I'm

55:06

just wondering whether the

55:08

slightly more immoderate Republican might

55:11

have been unable to prosecute

55:13

the war long enough to

55:16

be able to win it. Interesting

55:18

question. Lincoln, the opposition

55:21

to him grows in the North because the war

55:24

for much of his first term is

55:26

not going well. Would Stuart have

55:28

fared more poorly in that regard? I

55:30

guess in a war, if you win a

55:32

few more battles, that can cover a multitude

55:35

of sins. Yeah, and perhaps his greater skill

55:37

in public service, his greater experience in government

55:41

may have made him a more effective

55:43

war leader early on, choosing better generals

55:45

to lead the fight. One

55:48

could analyze this in

55:50

both directions. Both would be interesting to follow

55:52

through to a logical conclusion. I

55:55

would also say that over the course

55:57

of the war, Lincoln moves closer to

55:59

Seward's. position. 1863 is

56:02

the Emancipation Proclamation where

56:06

he declares, all enslaved

56:09

people in territory controlled

56:11

by the secessionists are

56:13

hereby free. That's a

56:16

Seward position. Now Lincoln comes

56:18

to that by reason of war necessity,

56:20

not by thinking I

56:22

was wrong and thinking earlier that slavery

56:24

should be allowed to exist in the

56:26

southern states. This is a war

56:29

measure. How am I going to win this war? Whenever

56:31

Union armies go through southern territory, thousands

56:34

and then tens of thousands of enslaved

56:36

people leave their land

56:38

and follow the

56:40

root of the Union army as

56:43

a path toward freedom. What

56:47

is Lincoln going to do with all these people?

56:49

Return them to conditions of enslavement? He

56:51

decides to free them. And southern

56:55

states where slavery existed like Kentucky that

56:58

had not seceded, their

57:01

enslaved people remain enslaved.

57:03

So he takes one step toward emancipation in 1863 or 1864, has

57:05

become committed

57:10

to emancipation of

57:13

all enslaved people in the United States. And

57:16

that's going to become the 13th amendment to

57:19

the constitution that he sees through

57:22

Congress before he's killed. So

57:25

the necessity of war impels

57:28

him to rethink

57:30

and revise his thinking

57:33

about where

57:35

emancipation in the United States should

57:37

occur. And by the

57:39

end of his first term, he has committed

57:41

himself to the emancipation of all enslaved peoples

57:45

in the United States, which moves him closer to

57:47

a Seward

57:49

position. It's a bit like

57:52

the Andrew Jackson story, that there

57:54

are any certain kinds of politicians who can make

57:56

certain kinds of moves. And maybe you

57:58

have to have been Lincoln. in

58:00

order to get ultimately to

58:02

Seward's position as something that can be

58:04

enacted as president. Maybe the person

58:06

who couldn't have done that was Seward. Very

58:10

interesting proposition. Inappropriate

58:13

to connect Lincoln to Jackson

58:16

and what connects them and what distances

58:18

them both from Calhoun is

58:21

about the primacy of the Union

58:24

and keeping the Republic together. We

58:26

don't often think of Lincoln as being in part

58:28

Jackson's heir, but his commitment to

58:30

the Union and maintaining it as

58:32

this being the message of the founding fathers, that

58:36

becomes his mission. That was Jackson's mission.

58:39

And so in a curious way, this Republican who

58:42

was Seward odds with that

58:45

earlier Democrat becomes

58:48

the person who takes up the

58:50

sentiments and convictions that

58:53

Jackson expresses and the

58:55

nullification proclamation of 1832,

58:59

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