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Full terms at mintmobile.com. Hello

0:43

my name's David Grossman and this

0:46

is past present future. Today's episode

0:48

in our series about the history

0:50

of Freedom with the writer and

0:52

philosopher let it Be is about

0:54

the idea of the Free Market.

0:57

What is it about buying and

0:59

selling stuff that makes human beings

1:02

free? What Does the Free market?

1:04

Free. Us from. Or

1:07

what does it mean to live in a

1:09

world of credit and debt? for the possibilities

1:12

of human beings ever being. Free. We.

1:22

Haven't talked this point about what

1:24

I think a lot of people

1:26

in the Twenty first century would

1:29

think of as a starting point

1:31

for defining freedom. And that's the

1:33

Free Market. But. It's not

1:35

just the twenty first century, there is

1:37

a very twentieth century. The it's also

1:39

a nineteenth, an eighteenth century idea. Let's.

1:43

Move across those centuries because the arguments

1:45

for the free market weirdly in some

1:47

respects the quite consistent over time some

1:49

of the things that the defenders of

1:51

the free Market say. They. Have

1:53

been saying for a couple of century.

1:55

some of them are a little bit

1:57

more contemporary. I just wanna run through.

2:00

The arguments and get your response to them. And.

2:02

I generally don't know what your response to

2:04

some of them may too often as I

2:06

say and. In there are passionate

2:08

defenders of the free Market people who

2:10

are absolutely convinced that there isn't really

2:13

a plausible account of modern freedom. That.

2:15

Doesn't start with the idea

2:17

that free exchange is the

2:19

basis of it. To

2:22

some of these ideas from people Adam

2:24

Smith's some from economists site Friedrich Kayak.

2:27

It. Doesn't matter that much where they

2:29

come from. What I want knows what

2:32

you think to his one. this is

2:34

a i think classic defense. the free

2:36

Market in relation to freedom. And that

2:38

is that. The greatest single enemy to

2:41

human freedom is extreme poverty. Because.

2:44

If you are very poor, you

2:46

are extremely vulnerable. Not just vulnerable

2:49

to fate and circumstance and disease,

2:51

but vulnerable to other human beings.

2:54

Much easier to coerce people who

2:56

like almost all resources, and also

2:58

you are incredibly constrained imaginatively because

3:01

a subsistence existence. Is. A

3:03

real grind Them It just is

3:05

very hard work to be thinking

3:08

day to day about survival and

3:10

from the eighteenth century on. But

3:12

I'd say these arguments really gather

3:15

pace in the twentieth century. The

3:17

idea is that the market liberal

3:19

market economies are the great emancipate

3:22

as of human beings from poverty.

3:25

Say. Thought is your starting point. Maybe.

3:28

It's not sufficient for freedom, but is

3:30

necessary for freedom not to be extremely

3:32

poor. The Market is the great liberator.

3:35

I want to say something positive and

3:38

something negative about the market. I guess

3:40

what I would start with is not

3:42

this argument to highlight the positive self

3:44

the market Because it seems to me

3:46

that yes, it's true that the market

3:48

has historically performed this emancipatory let's call

3:50

it function or listen, keep up on

3:52

poverty. But there has also been extreme

3:54

violence that has gone hand in hand

3:56

with the assertion of the free market

3:58

and with it's expense and outside the

4:00

uplift our net core core commercial societies

4:02

that we know off in. Western Europe

4:05

and the cost of that has been the

4:07

destruction of alternative forms of life, and this

4:09

is a well known narrative which is in

4:11

some ways in bed. It's also in. The

4:13

Free Market story and it's ideal

4:15

person. So the idea that you have

4:17

progress is accounts of how human being,

4:20

social economic relations developed. Starting with steaks,

4:22

it's formed in different forms of societal

4:24

differences. So you start with and the

4:27

gathering i'm adding society than you have

4:29

agricultural societies and you have commercial societies

4:31

as the higher states that social relations,

4:34

steaks and so in the ideal merson,

4:36

it's. The. Concepts and then all the

4:38

senses of the Free Market. You sign this

4:40

account of. The. Superiority of commercial

4:42

society over these alternative forms of

4:44

life which in then the. Reality in

4:47

the kind of assertion of the Free

4:49

Market has gone hand in hand with

4:51

the suppression of the Delta the Forms

4:53

of Life Because exactly if you have

4:55

come up with a superior model of

4:57

social organization, economic and political, why would

4:59

you then want to retain these alternative

5:01

forms when you can get rid of

5:03

hunter gathering? Or when you get rid

5:05

of Buster our agricultural. Societies. So it

5:07

seems to me that yes, you

5:09

can make the argument historically that

5:12

the Commercial Society free Market has

5:14

listed people from poverty, but. You

5:16

also need to understand that it has lifted

5:19

the survivors in a way. Those that haven't

5:21

been any collated by the expansion of these

5:23

forms of social organization and so costs about

5:26

have been the loss of alternate forms of

5:28

those organizers. Now you might say, well maybe

5:30

these alternative forms of those organization didn't do

5:32

as well with poverty, but then maybe there

5:35

were other values that they were sustaining and

5:37

but we are now indifferent to or that

5:39

we don't. Panic. Think I must say

5:41

if I were to start with the

5:43

Defense of the Free Market, I wouldn't

5:45

necessarily start. With the one that says

5:48

well this is a superior form of

5:50

socio economic organizations because it seems to

5:52

me that the violence on which that

5:54

is premised historically doesn't quite make up

5:56

for it to the cost of it

5:59

is so high. That in the and yeah

6:01

you can say a lot about the benefits, but

6:03

it still. says. Is fundamental original

6:05

sin in a way. To

6:07

just before We come to your defense.

6:09

So on that argument, that's the long

6:11

term view. It can be an account

6:13

of human development through these various stages.

6:15

There's also a contemporary version of it

6:17

which is much, much more condensed, which

6:19

is the great emancipation of human beings

6:21

from poverty has taken place in the

6:23

last thirty four years, and it's remarkable.

6:25

And we talking about billions of people.

6:27

And yes, we are talking about the

6:29

eradication of said ways of life because

6:31

there is a uniformity to the market

6:33

is it spreads around the world and

6:35

we are living in a. Globalized

6:37

world which is also in

6:39

some respects a more uniform

6:41

world. but the dramatic. Condensed

6:44

version of that in our

6:46

lifetimes. Literally, In our lifetimes,

6:48

In places like Africa, but

6:50

particularly in India and in

6:52

China may be particularly in

6:54

India because it's been so

6:56

recent. Do you still feel the

6:59

same argument holes? In the

7:01

last thirty years, we seen

7:03

the eradication of the diversity

7:05

of the human experience. As.

7:07

I accept that that I then we would have

7:09

to have. A more specific argument made the

7:11

What it is about India and China that

7:13

has accent lifted people from poverty because it

7:15

seems to me that we are not, they're

7:17

confronted with a purist market farm and that

7:20

we're not them fronted with free markets society

7:22

that in fact these are models that's to

7:24

some extent departs from this textbook idea of

7:26

what it means to have a free market

7:28

that is deregulated with outs political institutions without

7:30

control from above and that it seems to

7:32

me that what you have historically something very

7:34

very different. And that if you look

7:36

at us that this is and then you take

7:39

away India and sign up as these hybrid models

7:41

then you are left with a much more. Ambiguous

7:43

Records on. Poverty. Developments that's

7:45

one aspect of it's the second one I

7:48

guess up one also need to talk about

7:50

when thinking about the advantages of the free

7:52

Market is not just poverty but also inequality

7:54

and on that front humanity. If even when

7:57

this kind of large scale things modelings is

7:59

on improving. And you might say

8:01

yes, absolute poverty is a concern, but in

8:03

the times in which we live. Where the

8:05

world is very interconnected, relative deprivation and

8:07

comparisons and inequality is also very high

8:09

concern as well. And on that front,

8:11

it doesn't seem that the free market

8:13

is kind. Of helping of but this is

8:15

now getting on the pathologies under criticism. I

8:18

were to say what is it about the Free

8:20

Market? The what is it about commercial societies? That.

8:23

Is. To. Some extent of benefit them

8:25

and you start frumps and it seems

8:27

to me that it's the kind of

8:29

emancipation from traditional forms of social organizations

8:31

that are genuinely suppressing of upon a

8:33

me. Ends with the rise of

8:36

commercial societies. It goes hand in hand.

8:38

And seems to me with the assertion

8:40

of a certain kind of subjects and

8:42

certain understanding of. Who. The human

8:45

is and how you account for the

8:47

human, what kind of planes they have

8:49

against others, how do they relate to

8:51

other people's that is to me. Then

8:53

we leave promising when it comes to

8:55

freedom because it's a departure from of

8:57

type of understanding of the subject as

8:59

defined by the community, by the families,

9:01

by social norms, by other kind of

9:03

collective rules. And it seems to me

9:05

that's commercial society goes hand in hand

9:07

with the assertion of for better or

9:09

worse. But it seems to me that

9:11

it is a step forward in the

9:13

sensible departure from. These forms of authoritarian

9:15

social organization or not is no

9:17

human The was made in the

9:19

eighties and Trim in the Mountains

9:21

and she's a they're sort of

9:24

phrases associated with it. From status

9:26

to contract is one stay to

9:28

space. Relationships are potentially at least

9:30

more domineering than contract based relationships

9:32

and other words associated with the

9:34

his ability. So the thing about

9:36

the market is these or. Other.

9:39

There's a better word from this them

9:41

anonymous relationships It there is a new

9:43

trauma see in the ideal market but

9:45

also in practice I think in many

9:47

sets of market relationships in which in

9:49

seeking out the best price or the

9:51

best service or whatever it is you

9:53

don't have to start with the question

9:55

who am I allowed to do this

9:57

with nor the even more difficult question

9:59

which is. Will the person I

10:01

have to do it with, Let me

10:03

do it.is civility a kind of. Being.

10:05

A kind of servants and most

10:07

human relationships pre what we might

10:10

cool. Modern commercial societies were based

10:12

on understandings that someone was in

10:14

that relationship relative someone else within

10:16

the family. the children, the weiss,

10:18

the servants. Literally no seventeenth eighteenth

10:20

century families included the servants. If

10:22

you were a servant and you

10:24

want to the seek out a

10:26

particular good for your life, you

10:28

had to pass through a whole

10:30

host of barriers of permission before

10:32

you can do it. A

10:35

free market is the great leveller

10:37

of those barriers. Else.

10:39

Or something else which oddly goes I

10:42

think against what is the received commonsense

10:44

about the type of individual that free

10:46

market. Relies upon which is often seem

10:48

to be profit maximizing. South is interested

10:50

only in themselves and and it seems

10:52

to me that the most interesting arguments

10:55

for the free Market or let's call

10:57

commercial societies because it's a more expansive.

10:59

Stamps are the ones that say

11:01

that through by entering into commerce

11:03

into commercial interactions with other individuals

11:05

actually expand their circle of sympathy

11:08

so they are able to move

11:10

away from the family. He from the

11:12

people they sarah religion with our this are

11:14

certain. Types of belief and because they

11:16

have is kind of expensive nature

11:18

then you understand that the human

11:20

is actually not someone who is

11:22

stance against. Others, but who is potentially

11:24

a pauper? They events I think it's

11:26

really interesting to the somewhere like Adam

11:29

Smith for examples, makes these kinds of

11:31

arguments around sympathy and around expanding circles.

11:33

Of sympathy and he's usually seen as it's sort

11:35

of power that math example folks, but the sense

11:37

of the free markets. But I think with a

11:40

nelson of the subject at. The center that

11:42

is very very different from what. Now.

11:44

It the stereotypical understanding of the contents of the

11:46

Free Market is with his attempts to be indifferent

11:48

that you have a not care and thoughts. I

11:51

think for people like sleep to some

11:53

extent for pants as well. With all

11:55

his arguments in the eighteenth century around

11:57

commercial societies I really interesting precisely because

11:59

they're highlights. The corporate the of nature

12:01

a few months rather than be antagonistic nature.

12:03

I mean it starts with antagonism, but the

12:05

idea is that you enter in these relations

12:07

and they somehow emancipate to they make him

12:10

more forward looking and more as from estate

12:12

and morning and are disposed towards others. And

12:14

I really like that. What? Are the

12:16

things that people noticed about the commercial

12:18

societies? a thing particularly in the nineteenth

12:21

century, particular places like Great Britain? The

12:23

people who weren't the radical critics of

12:25

them. Is they allowed for

12:27

flourishing of varieties of human associations? are

12:29

actually earlier forms of society for quite

12:32

constrained in the imagination of what it

12:34

is to do something as a group

12:36

of family, a tribes, a clan, whatever.

12:39

it is based on the land tied

12:41

in various ways. And in

12:43

the nineteenth century, in the early twentieth

12:45

century, get this incredible flourishing of the

12:48

varieties of human association under the law.

12:51

You. Can join with other human beings

12:53

in incredible ways if you share. Not

12:55

relations of civility or power, but a

12:57

common purpose. something that you want to

12:59

do. Not purely selfish because he wants

13:02

to with other people, but you might

13:04

want to. Then. Draw the

13:06

people in by offering them a service. whatever

13:08

it is, A mass I

13:10

think one of things that has

13:12

been lost. So he moved through

13:14

the story into the late twentieth

13:16

century, into the twenty first century.

13:19

It's certain kinds of economic forms

13:21

of association have come to dominate,

13:23

particularly corporate forms in the Economic

13:25

and Financial fair, and there was

13:27

a dream that lie somewhere between

13:29

sort of Adam Smith and Now

13:31

which is maybe a hundred years

13:33

old, But it's still has some

13:35

drop, which is this is the

13:38

way this kind of free association.

13:40

And free exchange is the way for

13:42

human beings. Like you said to find

13:44

other human beings and then outside of

13:47

the family, outside of the church, a

13:49

religious setting, and an extraordinary experimental ways.

13:52

Discover. What they're capable of. Yeah,

13:54

I think that's rather than I wonder whether that's how

13:56

it was because it was the beginning and because of

13:59

these were the origins. And then as

14:01

this model takes over and becomes more

14:03

in France and more consolidated, the types

14:05

of pathologies. Become more and more prominent

14:07

and then you begin to feel for the

14:09

downside of this spontaneity and this forms of

14:12

those organization that are in some ways against

14:14

the fourth and against her the sun and

14:16

define themselves against. Them And I think

14:18

you also begin to see them the

14:20

impact that they have on places and.

14:23

Parts of even minutes with the world

14:25

will even Europe which are not run.

14:27

Courting to those models at which then suddenly

14:29

feel the impact. I mean I come from

14:31

Albania was was under the Ottoman Empire for.

14:34

Many centuries and for me the history. Of

14:36

the Ottoman Empire, for example, begins to decline.

14:39

partly. Under the pressure of commercial society

14:41

and of alternative forms of social organizations

14:43

which by virtue of how it was

14:45

a rains it couldn't withstand the couldn't

14:47

withstand this press or it couldn't compete.

14:49

With and then the suburbs to some extent

14:52

or that was similar. The yes, I think

14:54

you get the flourishing in some parts of

14:56

Europe, but you get the destruction. In other

14:58

parts of Europe. Of. Those models of

15:00

society that are not really able,

15:02

and lawmaking and institutional organizations that

15:05

I think aren't quite able to

15:07

compete with those commercials societies. Another

15:09

arguments and say this is what

15:11

I just described as not actually

15:13

a distinctive feature of free market

15:15

or commercial societies. The reviews that

15:18

the by the untied empire or

15:20

the Ottoman Empire. That's very simple,

15:22

her periods of a credible flourishing

15:24

of varieties of human so and

15:26

but then it becomes ossified and

15:28

style and power relations assert themselves

15:30

and certain types of human association

15:32

come to dominate. and then it's

15:34

very, very hard to break free.

15:36

And the history of free market

15:38

capitalism may be. Just another version of

15:40

that so you can find the periods where

15:42

it looks like it's the answer to the

15:44

question of the diversity of human flourishing which

15:47

is what the depends. The free Market have

15:49

always said. When. You look

15:51

at the twenty first century version, it's not

15:53

clear that that is true. There's an awful

15:55

lot of diversity, but there's also an awful

15:57

lot of uniform as an angry been made.

16:00

That is part of the trajectory of

16:02

all of these forms of social organization.

16:04

Right? and all stories of freedom? maybe?

16:06

So. Many give you another argument that again. You.

16:09

Hear is in different forms from

16:12

the eighteenth century onwards about the

16:14

free market. One of the challenges

16:16

for human freedom is it all

16:18

human societies going have within them,

16:20

people who have an awful lot

16:22

of power of and money and

16:24

power and have no real incentive

16:26

to obey the rules and. They.

16:28

Will behave like bandits. that's where the sofa

16:31

nice of them. the powerful bandits the robbers.

16:33

he will get rich by taking what they

16:35

can take goes bit back to play. say

16:37

what people will get away with they get

16:39

away with what they will get away with.

16:42

And the great advantage of a

16:44

free market society is it's organizing

16:46

principle is the rule of law,

16:49

which is broadly speaking, Very.

16:51

Broadly speaking, Neutral. And.

16:54

There's. A moral argument for that. It

16:56

treats people Sally's in, agree or disagree,

16:58

and I suspect there are lots of

17:01

reasons to disagree with that. but as

17:03

a pragmatic argument, prudential argument. Which.

17:05

Is. It encourages the

17:07

people who might otherwise be bandits to

17:10

play by the rules. Why to entice

17:12

them Because they spot they'll get richer

17:14

playing by the rules and even if

17:16

the rules and get walks by that

17:18

power, it's still better to have them

17:20

inside the tent to you can at

17:22

least try and hold them to the

17:24

more. Than. A genuine band

17:27

is economy where when they come feel

17:29

goods, does nothing that you can do

17:31

and that is an eighteenth century argument

17:33

is also twenty first century argument in

17:35

a way that there are rubber band,

17:37

it's out the other our he's in

17:39

which the oligarchs more or less take

17:42

what they want not quite that almost.

17:44

And then there are societies. may be

17:46

like. Someone. Like Great Personal

17:48

whether a very wealthy powerful people, but

17:50

there is a plausible case. they are

17:52

constrained by rules that they have signed

17:54

up to because those rules are the

17:56

basis of that wealth. That. Seems

17:58

to need to the. Kind. Of ideology

18:01

in a way to so narrative of

18:03

how everyone is equal in the market.

18:05

It's premised on the idea that individuals

18:07

all have equal bargaining power. That they're

18:10

all positions equal in front. Of the

18:12

law and therefore any one of them who

18:14

takes risks does these things, engages with other

18:16

people. In the way with some of the. Rules of

18:19

Commercial Society prescribe will then potentially

18:21

benefit and therefore you can then

18:23

see this. Story of advancement.

18:25

And so on. But that's the bit of free

18:27

market thinking that strikes. Me as pure ideology

18:29

in a way because if you are

18:31

excellent and biology doing frenzy and. No,

18:34

no, not south of the a kind

18:36

of narrative that justifies the model and

18:38

that then takes hold on people's minds

18:40

who then buy into the model and

18:42

then will absorb the costs and are

18:44

willing to justify the excesses because they

18:46

think will. The narrative seems like the

18:48

right one. It's. A little bit like the

18:51

story of a we're all equal in front of

18:53

the law and the state. Well, that's not the

18:55

case, right? So some of us have more mean

18:57

than others. And so in the case of the

18:59

Free Market if you are someone who has capital

19:01

and has resources or has land or have. Basically

19:04

owns a lot. Of stuff,

19:06

they don't have the same bargaining.

19:08

Power in the market with someone who doesn't doesn't

19:10

have anything else and so's up and says here's

19:12

what I can do on that. Me and us

19:15

or. Have is myself. So in a

19:17

way, these asymmetries of wealth and property

19:19

and capital and thoughts. It seems to

19:21

me that undermined his narrative that in

19:23

the markets everyone is equal Yes, they

19:25

are equal in the Us drugs, and

19:27

yes, for the contract to the eyes

19:29

of the law and for all intents

19:31

and purposes when it comes to making

19:34

contracts. They're equal, but actually the

19:36

agents who are signing a contract.

19:38

The fact are not equal and

19:40

indeed often. Contracts and Up Advantage

19:42

and those who have more resources and

19:44

who can drive the agenda. And sauce

19:47

to simply that's that's the bit of acts

19:49

of the I've always. Found really perplexing them.

19:51

I'm surprised that more people don't seeds

19:53

in generally and a free markets oriented

19:55

society that this is just a narrative

19:58

that takes hold on the. One

20:00

believes in it and then therefore they

20:02

somehow suspend their criticism of the law

20:04

of these doctors of the wayne was

20:06

contracts are signs. So. I think the

20:08

argument I was making there is an ideal those moves

20:10

is close to the one you describe is I think

20:12

is pretty implausible. Equal bargaining power and

20:15

then the pragmatic one which is a

20:17

much much more modest argument. Which.

20:19

Is There are lots of scenarios in which

20:21

if you have rule structures of power and

20:23

hierarchy and massive in the causes of wealth,

20:25

there is no bargaining power. To the band

20:27

It version of it, your money or your

20:30

life version of it. That's not your money

20:32

or your life is not a bargaining position

20:34

for the person on the other side of

20:36

the table. It's a threat. It's

20:38

extraction the word sometimes uses. These

20:40

are extracted societies in which the

20:42

people with the power use that

20:44

power. To. Augment their wealth.

20:46

And then these. that wealth movement, that

20:49

power. And yes, you're not gonna get

20:51

equality under the law, except in the

20:53

ideal, idealized version of this. But there

20:55

is some bargaining power within this, or

20:57

even in the very unequal societies like

20:59

the ones that we live in. It's

21:01

not just banditry. what it is is

21:04

a structure organized around rules in which

21:06

you will need resources to know how

21:08

to navigate those rules. and it's gonna

21:10

be very unequal. The people with the

21:12

money can buy the lawyers and the

21:14

people without the money. Can't have an

21:17

A for the Lloyds and so on,

21:19

and so on. Says nothing idealized about

21:21

it, but it's better than banditry, and

21:23

banditry is often the default condition of

21:25

very unequal societies. And then again, For

21:28

cells heard of random I mean and anything

21:30

from in a different it in a state

21:32

and the bandits organization is just how we

21:34

justify the state. And how he does if I

21:36

the bandit organization right. But it seems to me

21:38

that if you think that the state is basically tests

21:40

that. Strong and powerful will have

21:43

managed to. Accumulates and concentrates

21:45

our and now holds monopoly over violence

21:47

and then can impose their will on

21:49

others. Well that's just like a form

21:51

of bandit organization right? our larger scale.

21:53

In some ways it's a it's even

21:55

worse than a bandit organization that my

21:58

be smaller and might be less. Devastating

22:00

and. Bandits. Plus Rules

22:03

is worse than bandits without rules.

22:05

A mania. Imagine a kind of bandit organization

22:07

with nuclear weapons right? There are some the

22:09

most of them are if you think of

22:12

the said incidents way. So this is why

22:14

I say ideologies important because on the base

22:16

of that ideologies than you than justify the

22:18

state and think about how it's made acceptable

22:20

and how people subscribed to the rules own

22:22

to come on to another defense of remote

22:24

it But just on this. Faced.

22:27

With the argument that the rule of

22:29

law which has. At. It's heart

22:31

an idea that it will treat people

22:34

equally or neutrally it doesn't in practice,

22:36

but that I do is there. And

22:38

so when you live. In

22:40

an organization that has an ideal to which does

22:42

not live up. There. Are

22:44

some advantages to that to

22:46

even ruthless brutal dictators can

22:48

be held to account in

22:50

part by their hypocrisy. Hypocrisy

22:52

is one of the things

22:55

that lets people be reined

22:57

in because. You're the

22:59

victim of your own pretends. If.

23:01

You think of the rule of law in that light.

23:04

It is the hypocrisy of free market societies to talk

23:06

about the rule of law. Just. As

23:08

they classic example of this was during

23:10

the Cold War when the Soviet regime

23:12

signed up to arms treaty said it

23:15

had no intention of up holdings. Nonetheless,

23:17

there is something that you can do

23:19

with people by saying this paper papers

23:21

got your signature on it you can

23:24

same hypocrites, Do. Not

23:26

see any of the pool of that. Year.

23:28

But then this idea that we have treaties and

23:30

we have laws and we subscribed. This is

23:32

a very old idea so I don't

23:34

really see that we credit them free

23:37

markets where this. It seems to me

23:39

that this has been going on principle

23:41

of backed us on servanda. It's precedes

23:43

the emergence of kind of free market

23:45

capitalism or side of commercial societies. So

23:47

I'd say yes there is something and

23:49

but it might work the other way

23:51

around as well that that because to

23:53

have this idea that events in for

23:55

certain types of market interactions but doesn't

23:57

democratize it to the extent that. Yes,

24:00

There's always been the thought that treaties can be

24:02

binding. even the people he signed them don't. Mean.

24:05

To abide by them. but that's

24:07

an elite practice. It's not the

24:09

case in most societies that ordinary

24:11

people can hold a piece of

24:13

paper and say you sign this,

24:15

but that is true and of

24:17

various versions of free exchange in

24:19

the rule of law it isn't.

24:21

is a very contract oriented set

24:23

of arrangements and so you have

24:25

kind of past. The. Opportunities

24:27

to hold people out by the sailing

24:29

to meet their own hypocritical stand As

24:31

down the chain. I can

24:33

see that. but then I guess there you

24:36

have to narratives of what accounts for the

24:38

emergence of this type of principles that expands.

24:40

Somehow the range of who you can make certain that

24:42

mans on sauce. And while I think it's true

24:44

that the emergence of these commercials aside is this

24:47

play a role in the rule of law and

24:49

thoughts, I don't think it was necessarily. What accounted

24:51

for democracy? It seems to me that that

24:53

movements that democratize a try to open up

24:55

the public fears were often author movement that

24:58

weren't necessarily free market movements of the democratizing

25:00

movements of the eighteenth nineteenth century in particular

25:02

were also movement the try to resist the

25:05

free market. Them indeed were doing so on

25:07

the basis of the idea that it wasn't

25:09

as for the property holders and it wasn't

25:11

for people who are on the assets on

25:14

stilts. I wouldn't credits the

25:16

descendants of commercial society with

25:18

also. Having come up with. Mechanism.

25:21

For holding it's other, holding people accountable that

25:23

actually works say is another argument for the

25:26

free market and you to run by. Use

25:28

this one. I would associate particularly with Friedrich

25:30

Hayek, the the twentieth century Nobel prize winning.

25:32

Everyone should say it's economists to their when

25:35

he won the Nobel Prize alongside Murtha alongside

25:37

all sorts of people, his Nobel prize winning

25:39

acceptance speech is worth reading Diseases or have

25:42

Id say is price but my God Economists

25:44

think they're more important than they really are.

25:46

And part of the reason he thought that

25:48

was he believed his view of the Free

25:51

Market. Was a theory of knowledge. Essentially.

25:54

And the great threat to human

25:56

freedom. He believed and and he

25:59

thought He took this. The From Monkeys entry

26:01

liberals like Tocqueville and others is he

26:03

needs to be emancipated from false profits,

26:05

people who have forced prophecies of the

26:08

future I mean, or prophecies in the

26:10

center of the future, but specifically secular

26:12

ones. Around how

26:14

the economy could be structured, politicians particularly

26:16

in democratic societies who are going to

26:19

try and present in order to secure

26:21

their power. A version of the future

26:23

is a vote because he can emancipate

26:25

you in some ways. I

26:27

believed. Prophecy. Traps He because

26:30

all of us all human beings we'll

26:32

do it by you, make a prediction

26:34

and then even if it's not coming

26:36

true, you kind of doubled down on

26:38

it in order to try and save

26:40

face. And he genuinely believed that the

26:42

way power to months as hotties, the

26:44

real risk was politicians who it. Off

26:47

A plans for the Economy offer

26:50

a prospectus of full employment whatever

26:52

it is, control prices. Mid twentieth

26:54

century political office That these were

26:57

the things that would ultimately trap

26:59

human beings in patterns of behavior

27:01

from which they couldn't escape because

27:04

the people with power would be

27:06

committed to saving face by. Pushing.

27:09

Further and further and further you push

27:11

on these plans, the less human freedom

27:13

there will be because more and constraint

27:16

is needed. The market is the emancipated

27:18

because the market is the thing that

27:20

exposes the fools prophecies. Because the market

27:22

knows things that no human beings and

27:25

know group of human beings know which

27:27

is the value of goods, set the

27:29

price and the price mechanism is the

27:32

vehicle of human freedom because the enemy

27:34

of human freedom other all the different

27:36

human beings who think they can set.

27:38

The price accident. That is quite a

27:41

plausible argument. Fails think it's a very

27:43

important than very strong arguments of have a

27:45

lot of time for it. Also as part

27:47

of a kind of theorists knowledge and how

27:49

are their farms and science. I guess for

27:51

me when you're thinking about that and the

27:53

alternatives. Or that That and the criticisms. The

27:55

question is a question of how do you reckon

27:58

with the costs. Of it's we, the cost of

28:00

that view, visibly, the costs. Of the let's call

28:02

it the planning do for want of a

28:04

better distinction and it seems to me that

28:06

head doesn't deny that there is a costs

28:08

to the free market view. And

28:11

he just doesn't think that

28:13

once needs. Despair.

28:15

Poverty. Are also then when

28:17

impediments the freedom. So somehow he has

28:19

conception of freedoms that is not broad

28:21

enough that it can allow for us

28:23

to understand that if someone is desperate,

28:25

someone is homeless. If want someone it's

28:28

hungry, they are unfree. He his conception

28:30

of freedom doesn't enable him to do.

28:32

That and therefore he can say, Well, you

28:34

know markets. Free markets enable us to innovate

28:36

and we don't have control over the direction

28:39

of society. It's and if there are the

28:41

victims along the way, Well, Tom P, You

28:43

know that so be it does what happens.

28:45

And indeed, you know he thinks of social

28:48

justice as a result of that. Is a

28:50

mere, it's a gold the myriad of social justice

28:52

he doesn't thing. But any as the to some

28:54

is or should be in the business of trying

28:56

to. Somehow do something about the victims

28:58

of the markets. What I really like about

29:00

how you can. View as the honesty about

29:02

all of this was his not honestly that you'd

29:05

find in any other I think are you not

29:07

find it very often named a lot of free

29:09

markets advocates the cooking easily prevented the know you

29:11

and do something about at Worth when I like

29:13

about my high as it gives a this kind

29:16

of stark choice okay the one of the the

29:18

free market Ruth you will understand that there will

29:20

be losers and there's nothing you can do about

29:22

the losers. It's just a cost that we have

29:24

to absorb if we want flourishing societies of this

29:27

type. Now I'm not someone who is happy to

29:29

absorb the costs because I thing to the person

29:31

who. Left behind to the poor to

29:33

the homeless to booths. It. Matters

29:35

is is there one life? And it matters

29:37

what happens to them, depending on what kind

29:40

of choices we make and how we design.

29:42

Institutions and said it's so if I am

29:44

going to lose a little bit. Of innovation

29:46

are a little bit of the direct

29:48

some because I'm planning more. And

29:51

saves. More. Of the

29:53

victims of the Free Markets than I

29:55

am prepared to drive on that's motorway

29:57

rather than on this one and absorb.

30:00

I'm not one rather than this one not die again once,

30:02

but I find the argument global and I think it is

30:04

a kind of then when. An

30:06

interesting debate how you think about it's

30:08

the second thing, but that I also

30:10

really like. That I've spent a lot of

30:13

time thinking about is the argument around prices

30:15

and planning and which is obviously having lived

30:17

in communist Albania you could really experience it's

30:19

you could really see what is the cost

30:21

of central planning economy where you don't have

30:24

signaling and you can you deceive to was

30:26

forming because you don't have been adequate supply

30:28

and demand. Mechanism and because it's

30:30

doesn't works in the right. Way. What?

30:33

I'm really interested in recently is all

30:35

the arguments for that. Not utopians will

30:38

say that it actually the age of

30:40

a I and digital revolution. There are

30:42

now ways in which we can have

30:45

much better within control or more controlled

30:47

economies. You have much better signaling and

30:49

you have a much faster communication between

30:51

the kind of things of. Economic

30:54

with distribution of enables you to then

30:56

have a better oversight than you might

30:58

have had when I was writing and

31:00

so I'm really into since arguments as

31:02

a okay this was a genuine issue

31:05

but now they're our technological possibilities to

31:07

overcome some of the of Texans that

31:09

are made to the planet or Molson.

31:11

just not without your mouth and probably.

31:14

Most. Suspicious of who Because the argument

31:16

for the market is that the market

31:18

knows things that no human being. Those

31:21

new group of human being know. The.

31:24

Market has it's own knowledge, which

31:26

comes from this accumulation of all

31:28

of the interactions of human beings.

31:30

And you see this repeated across.

31:33

The. Internet and different forms. Google Most things that

31:35

no human beings a know group of human beings

31:37

and the people who run Google don't know. In

31:39

the people who designed Google Dinner and these new

31:42

eyes of the have this a black box quality

31:44

to them that the market has. The market is

31:46

a black box. To. Design the roof

31:48

of the market, but it'll produce answers to

31:50

the question. What is the value of this

31:53

good? but not any. Can their one

31:55

predict that no one actually quite knows how

31:57

it does it? House and notice undies? Really

31:59

sophisticated. The eyes of doing things and. Coming.

32:02

Up with answers that no one can know. But.

32:04

Then I want to know who owns

32:07

those things cause it's an extraordinary power

32:09

and a key to say the same

32:11

classroom at the market who owns the

32:13

market But it seems to me it's

32:16

a more acute question in the age

32:18

of a Ice that actually you have

32:20

these corporate forms these winners in a

32:22

market system that a now acquiring a

32:25

whole extra level of power which is

32:27

they control, they build, they own. The.

32:29

Machines which ah the new know

32:32

as of the things that no

32:34

human being knows. It's more threatening

32:36

than the market version because the

32:38

powers more concentrated. Now

32:40

that of as it's an event in the market versa

32:42

in the development. Of the market. So historically

32:44

we have gone towards more and more

32:47

monopolization of capital and more and more

32:49

concentrations of power. And so in that

32:51

sense, I wouldn't say that the again

32:53

the time digital innovations are responsible for

32:56

the concentration of power and concentration of

32:58

ownership over around it's digital platforms. They

33:00

are just. The form that capital

33:02

takes at this. Particular state and

33:04

this case it happens to be digital

33:06

and so that's why Google and whatever

33:09

Microsoft and all his picked up on.

33:11

But it's a general. Seats are of

33:13

the way in which wealth as accumulated

33:15

and concentrated in deciding which we live

33:17

for their more thinking of the concentration

33:19

of knowledge of the knowledge of the

33:22

things the signals that human beings can't

33:24

access for themselves. There is that concentration

33:26

now to within these systems. But

33:28

yeah, but that's because we live in societies where

33:30

everything is commodity fights and so knowledge of the

33:32

commodity. As well and that's why it's not surprising

33:34

that you have this concentrations. So then the question

33:37

is that you kind of take it back and

33:39

say okay, it's what than we do I. Agree

33:41

with you, it's very concerning that there

33:43

is this degree of control over knowledge,

33:45

but what can we do to distribute

33:47

control more widely And then you go

33:49

back to the dilemma of is the

33:51

markets really as open and as inclusive

33:53

as it's set to be? Or is

33:55

it in fact just a few elites

33:57

that end up concentrate in wealth and.

34:00

Therefore, controlling more of the economy and

34:02

how can you then opened that up

34:04

and then it becomes wasn't very democratize

34:06

the economy more widely. I would also

34:08

say against the higher cume view. So

34:10

this is the critique of the fools

34:12

prophecies of those politicians who claim to

34:14

know the future. I think. Face.

34:17

In the Free Market is itself a fool's prophecy.

34:19

and actually, we know that now. So.

34:22

We know that there are circumstances in

34:24

modern societies in which you do need

34:26

to radically restrain the power of the

34:28

market because you've hit a problem, particularly

34:30

within a specific timeframe where you do

34:32

not have the time to allow the

34:35

market to work. It's magic. and if

34:37

you do allow the market to work

34:39

his magic in that short timeframe, there

34:41

will be so many loses that politics

34:43

will take over in a different way

34:46

and in a bit, so that gets.

34:48

The Nineteen Thirties might be an example

34:50

of this. The the Great Depression. Yes

34:52

in the long run let the banks fails and

34:54

in the end of price mechanism will let us

34:57

know what the future really holds. but in the

34:59

short run you're going to get fascism and all

35:01

the rest of it. A

35:03

chance at climate change seems to me similar.

35:05

There are lots of hierarchy and see say

35:07

that clearly the solution to or human problems

35:09

is to let the market price mechanism signal

35:11

to ask what will work and if we

35:13

try guess now what we need and thirty

35:16

is time we're going to get it wrong

35:18

will be trapped with our guess is we

35:20

will end up wasting a fourteen trying to

35:22

prove we were right and the world will

35:24

get warmer. But you can

35:26

imagine circumstances in a warming world in

35:28

which the political consequences of letting the

35:30

market work it's magic actually produce a

35:32

vicious circle effect in which we start

35:35

reacting to the losses that we suffer

35:37

while we're waiting for the market to

35:39

work his magic and we find political

35:41

solutions that a far worse so I

35:43

actually thing and his face. All of

35:46

these things are fight. There is a

35:48

a free market religion out that Hyuk

35:50

is, it's high priest and given that

35:52

he's they the critic of fools profits.

35:55

I think it's dangerous. I suppose

35:57

let's say it would say there's a.

36:00

Difference between the impersonal and the personal

36:02

And so if I were to defend

36:04

a exposition. I would say well

36:06

yes it is a safe and it

36:08

is a religions But there is a

36:10

difference between putting your faith in people

36:13

and putting your faith in process is

36:15

and in processes that are impersonal. Now.

36:17

My objects into that would be the peace process,

36:19

their exit not impersonal, and the end because the

36:21

Wayne Was Markets have developed the way in which

36:24

the types of society. We live

36:26

in, there are always. Personal.

36:28

Forces also behind what seems

36:30

like impersonal. Forces maybe more complicated.

36:32

It's more widely spread the it's not

36:34

vertical, it's horizontal. But there is a

36:37

type of a press on that. There

36:39

is a type of indices that these

36:41

structural what we'd call structural which is

36:43

not personnel and so. I

36:45

guess this is where the debate would be

36:47

to say okay, but is. An oppressed

36:50

and are the type of industries where you

36:52

can put a face and where you can

36:54

say it's politicians is the technocrats. it's the

36:56

decision makers the same as a type of

36:58

oppression where it be oppression is created. By

37:00

the little contributions of all these people who are

37:02

actually just going about their business and. Might

37:05

also do something. Good and so that's I

37:07

think where the interesting debate is and I think

37:09

I would say. The. Belief that

37:11

you should put your trust in

37:13

processes over people cannot be a

37:15

universal principal because they're all clear

37:18

moments in history where it's better

37:20

to put your trust in people

37:22

than processes. So America in the

37:24

Nineteen thirties, which could have gone

37:26

been many different paths. It

37:28

by. Lot more than by design

37:30

Guess President Franklin Roosevelt who is.

37:33

In. No way. A systematize it doesn't

37:35

really understand economics reads. a bit of

37:38

planes flew me to deploy a bit

37:40

of this to the that's constantly feeding

37:42

his way. has the right temperament to

37:44

experiment in ways where the signal for

37:46

he's trying to pick up at the

37:49

political signals. what will people tolerate? Because

37:51

it was a real risk that American

37:53

democracy would collapse into some version of.

37:56

Dictatorial. Reason: Fascistic

37:58

Politics and. It.

38:01

Does make sense to me that there are points

38:03

in human history Were. Facing.

38:05

Impersonal processes because people are fallible is

38:07

a mistake. This is my firm with

38:10

crypto. currency is madness. Rights To think

38:12

that what you want is a money

38:14

that's completely incorruptible by human input. I

38:17

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39:42

Other feature of. Market

39:44

economies, commercial societies and we talked

39:46

about this a bit last time

39:48

in relation to Can't and camps few

39:50

about what we needed to be emancipated

39:53

from to achieve perpetual piece is that

39:55

the. Medium. Of exchange is money.

39:58

This. Is a moneyed world? Know the world? The

40:00

money dwells the ancient world and lots respects Was

40:02

not really a money world. The.

40:05

World of Money, particularly. The.

40:07

Most recent versions of it Basically what we're

40:09

talking by his credit and debt and the

40:12

money is just a legend of heroes. what

40:14

home and indeed crypto currencies are ledger of

40:16

who is what to whom. Many.

40:19

Critics in different ways of commercial

40:21

societies have thought that in emancipating

40:23

people from relations of civility, what

40:25

you create a new kinds of

40:27

relations sensibility. Because the credits a

40:29

debtor relations is a power in

40:31

a sense it can go both

40:33

ways and that's that old argument

40:35

that if if you a someone's

40:37

fifty thousand pounds that person controls

40:39

even if you a than fifty

40:42

million pounds he control them because

40:44

they really need you to be

40:46

good. Feel that and then. On

40:48

the international scale, a bit

40:50

modern. Finance Modern. Banking.

40:53

It's beyond human imagining how much

40:55

the United States of America owes

40:57

to it's creditors. and as no

41:00

escape from it steals that. There's

41:02

no escape from a world which

41:04

is entirely mediated by credit. That

41:06

relationships person that is massive across

41:08

the developed world, particularly government that

41:11

is massive across the developed world.

41:13

This huge power in the banks.

41:15

Who are that? the creditors but

41:17

also some of the banks are

41:20

extremely vulnerable because they've learnt so

41:22

much. And that feels

41:24

like to me like it puts a

41:26

real damp now on the argument that

41:28

this is the vehicle of human freedom

41:31

we have as a result of embracing

41:33

a free market where of existence created

41:35

a mind boggling network of credits. Odetta

41:38

Relations. Which. Do.

41:40

Not make human freedom easily visible

41:42

in this. Yeah. And for

41:44

me that I completely agree with that and

41:47

that there isn't even son of an added

41:49

time which is the harm the floor and.

41:51

Then. You know, and some of those theories of

41:53

why are there wars between states in the world?

41:56

That's all to deal with this type of dynamic

41:58

of credit or and that released. I'm

42:00

not a kind of all traditional account

42:02

of imperialism, For example, stem from this

42:04

argument that there was a belief that

42:06

the credit and debit system Woods Supply.

42:08

The money that is needed to cater to

42:11

the demands of workers. In particular, states are

42:13

too great, a kind of welfare, subsidies and

42:15

science. All of that comes to haunt you,

42:17

because in fact, it's premised on the exploitation

42:19

and the plundering of other parts of the

42:21

world's. To make up to create a

42:23

base that pencil same these types of relations.

42:26

That dominating relations in the International fear.

42:28

And so what? Seems last an

42:30

escape falls. Within. Particular

42:32

society with in particular economy that gives

42:35

you know the states can borrow. And

42:37

therefore they can then. The have

42:39

also certain social expenditures will always

42:41

come to haunt the most. Vulnerable states

42:43

in the world economy where someone will always

42:45

have to pay the price of both kinds

42:48

of credit or and that relations weather in

42:50

the form of olds, imperialism and Old conquest

42:52

and so on or in the form. Of

42:54

now that dependency. And neo

42:57

colonial dynamics of conditioning other more

42:59

for more vulnerable countries where you

43:01

really see the that operating in

43:03

the international institutions in the way

43:06

in which. Countries for

43:08

go bankrupt are not. The

43:10

United States become effectively dominated

43:12

by more stronger by more

43:14

powerful states and exploited and

43:16

been used. For. The advancement

43:18

of those companies that are based in

43:20

these kind of stronger states. So for

43:22

me what's really it's in a way

43:24

even more depressing about it is that

43:26

going back to your argument about perpetual

43:28

peace and the world of for free

43:31

republican states that said rates with each

43:33

other and becomes call operates ends on

43:35

a peaceful. Relations exactly this credit or

43:37

and and better dynamic. So that

43:39

explains why that can't be the

43:41

case for as long as these

43:43

societies. Are run on free market

43:45

principles and hike is one of

43:48

those people who himself was very

43:50

worried but one post books his

43:52

version of freedom could take was

43:54

towards and excessive reliance on these

43:57

some cheap remedies for the challenges

43:59

that. Those in the twentieth century.

44:01

He was a nineteenth century liberals

44:03

who believed in really strict constitutional

44:06

restraints on the capacity of governments

44:08

to borrow because he knew it

44:10

was the path of least resistance.

44:12

It is the path of least

44:14

resistance. We know you can tax,

44:16

he can steal where you can

44:18

borrow, and we know that boring

44:21

is the easiest particular parts of

44:23

the obligation, and partly just because

44:25

it causes less fast And therefore

44:27

he thought actually. Freedom.

44:29

And his sense required strict liberal constraints

44:32

on government so strong separation of powers,

44:34

budget limits, and will. rest of the

44:36

kind of arguments was going on in

44:39

the United States now which is at.

44:41

Which is kind of. And it's all of this is bad

44:43

enough if you're. Of Britain's imagine how much worse

44:45

it is it your Albania act and the

44:48

now are sung. Yeah no it's is it

44:50

because if you're in the periphery of them

44:52

are of these. Economies than you are

44:54

much more. Vulnerable. To the press

44:56

or something. International markets, and thence even

44:58

the mechanisms that the wealthy countries have

45:01

to actually look after their own vulnerable

45:03

citizens are really not available to these

45:05

other states. I would say the other

45:07

problem with being a nineteenth century liberal

45:09

in the twentieth of friends for centuries,

45:11

it's not the nineteenth century right to

45:13

say it's and mean, I say so

45:15

American. You want to introduce these strict

45:17

constraints which limit the power of politicians

45:20

to inflate the currency or to borrow

45:22

more to get over this crisis or

45:24

that crisis you demand. In a highest

45:26

in way to go back to the gold

45:28

standard or two in she's bitcoin the currency

45:30

so the politicians can't interfere with it's and

45:32

therefore you bind the hands of the politicians

45:35

by be a binding them under conditions that

45:37

are far more dangerous because of them weight

45:39

of obligations that a built up over time.

45:41

So America goes bust and we're all screwed.

45:44

Now. Certainly may not been truths to

45:46

and describe. It is certainly true. Now to

45:48

your really playing with fire. I think if

45:50

you do that kind of nineteenth century liberalism

45:52

in the twenty first century because the stakes

45:55

are too high, Yeah no that's right

45:57

although I also I mean I'm more all but I

45:59

guess the the footprint. Rob Sir John the

46:01

debt ceiling to be breached in America To

46:03

renege on it's that. Married

46:05

guy goes bankrupt, says come up and

46:07

services for doctors, an area that might

46:09

unfold as a result of that. Last.

46:13

Thing which is another bird cruises with the

46:15

free market in you've touched on their of

46:17

commercial society. You've. More as just made

46:19

this case for one's really drew that. It

46:22

is always easy to identify the places

46:24

where it from really seems to have

46:27

worked. So for instance, there was talk

46:29

about this. Take nineteenth century Britain, some

46:31

terrible south happened to nineteenth century Britain

46:33

and some of the. Result.

46:36

Sober, a more liberalized market

46:38

economy were terrible working conditions

46:40

for people in it required

46:43

politics, the rescue children and

46:45

other people from disco exploitation.

46:47

But nonetheless of the nineteenth

46:49

century into the twentieth century,

46:51

it's incredible advances in life

46:53

expectancy, eventually in health outcomes,

46:55

in education, In.

46:57

General well being including basic measures

47:00

of gdp becomes a rich country.

47:02

These rich is off more widely

47:04

distributed. Terrible stuff but good stuff

47:06

too. But all of it is

47:08

happening because as an empire underneath

47:10

it and instances so a not

47:12

not a radical marxist by enemies,

47:14

but someone is an illusion in

47:17

his ways to do well. One.

47:19

Of his arguments about Britain. Was.

47:22

That it was just completely in

47:24

denial about the basis of it's

47:26

own wealth and much of what

47:28

it's politics was, which was a

47:30

set of playing around with the

47:33

structures of distribution within its own

47:35

borders was a kind of fantasy

47:37

based on the fact that no

47:39

one wants to talk about the

47:41

empire that underpinned it. And maybe

47:44

you see that repeated in all

47:46

of the success stories of the

47:48

Free Market. There is always ends,

47:50

an external factor. Which is

47:52

the thing? Outside were some version

47:55

of banditry is taking play. absolute.

47:57

And you see that both at the macro level with the

47:59

nation's and. They and you also see that the

48:01

micro level with the idea of the kind of

48:03

successful entrepreneur or the person who made his and

48:05

where you actually go and look at the case

48:08

is it's very. Rarely that the person who

48:10

made really started from nothing and in

48:12

fact often it is your thoughts on

48:14

family wealth. And then you look at the

48:16

roots and how this family wealth will have

48:18

accumulated. And there's always also not always clean

48:21

money at the bottom of it all. So

48:23

it seems to me that this is going

48:25

back to where we started about a sex

48:27

of ideology. So all of these. Factors

48:29

are suppressed in our accounts of

48:31

the rewards of free. Individual initiative

48:33

and creativity and innovation. And in

48:35

fact, when you kind of scratched

48:38

the surface, you realize that in

48:40

every process of accumulation, the basis

48:42

of it's both. It individual

48:44

process of accumulation and collected. Bros

48:46

of Accumulations The basis of it really

48:48

is violence. And so the question is,

48:50

how much violence are you willing to

48:52

justify to than uphold the benefits of?

48:54

Follow have another version. the arguments. The

48:57

strongest defenders of the Free Market in

48:59

the world. They live in Silicon Valley

49:01

in California and they have imbibed. Fire.

49:04

And. Other

49:06

Twenty Cents: Economists and Ayn

49:08

Rand and the novelists of

49:10

the Emancipated Market man. And

49:13

it is always a man.

49:15

And these people are almost

49:17

always men. And they have.

49:19

Not. Just an ideology but of miss

49:22

about themselves which is that they are

49:24

self made and. Some.

49:26

Of them have advantage backgrounds, but

49:28

really what they are building their

49:31

wealth on is the violence of

49:33

the state. Because these are this

49:35

technology we know now and that

49:38

this has been so well documented

49:40

is almost have become a cliche.

49:42

This technology is the product of

49:45

the American Military Industrial State bureaucratic

49:47

complex. and it's the Second World

49:49

War in a Cold War set

49:52

of imperatives and spending on a

49:54

mind boggling scale of public. Money.

49:57

The. Created the platform on which.

50:00

The wealth of the Apostles of the Free Market has

50:02

been built. Yeah. I think What's

50:04

also really interesting there is that we never

50:06

talons what's the foundations of private property are

50:09

because all of these models are premised on

50:11

the acceptance of a certain way of relating.

50:14

The individual to the external resources that

50:16

they are they happen to be to

50:18

find themselves and and all of that

50:20

requires a good story. Of what's justifies

50:23

accumulation, what justifies that. You know

50:25

this is not yours and then

50:27

it becomes the ours. I

50:29

think one of the ways in which

50:31

one can really, fundamentally. Talents.

50:33

The models and center on balance on

50:36

his disaster. What makes this course? And

50:38

there's so many different accounts there and

50:40

I think most of them are implausible,

50:43

but maybe Abbotsford other to. Our

50:51

Foot might Be newsletter comes out tomorrow

50:53

and tomorrow as addition accompanies the series.

50:55

It's full of writing clips links about

50:57

some of the ideas of freedom that

51:00

we been talking about. To get it

51:02

you just need to click on the

51:04

link in the show description. You can

51:06

also find out there had to sign

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51:36

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51:38

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51:41

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51:43

A neat of isn't. What

51:46

does that mean? to believe in freedom? If

51:49

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