0:01

It's been a pivotal week in national politics.

0:04

The presidential matchup is all but set.

0:06

Joe Biden versus Donald Trump. One

0:09

is the current occupant of the White House. The

0:11

other is out on bail. For

0:13

that reason alone, this is going to be

0:16

one of the strangest general elections in history.

0:18

It's also going to be one of the longest. Tonight

0:21

we'll go in-depth on the matchup. Next.

0:27

This is Washington Week with

0:29

the Atlantic. Good

0:31

evening and welcome to Washington Week. Last

0:34

night's State of the Union proved that

0:36

Joe Biden, despite his advanced age, can

0:39

still deliver an impassioned speech. But

0:41

it's not yet clear that voters, many of whom

0:43

think he's simply too old to run, will get

0:45

on board. Of course it's

0:47

not clear at all that Donald Trump, weighted

0:49

down by something more consequential than age, namely

0:51

91 felony charges, will be able

0:54

to convince all but his most loyal followers

0:56

that he deserves to be president again. Joining

0:59

me to discuss all this and

1:01

more, Eugene Daniels, a White House

1:03

correspondent for Politico and co-author of

1:06

Politico's Playbook. Osman

1:08

Khalid is a White House correspondent for

1:10

NPR and a political contributor for ABC

1:12

News. And Carlos Lozada is

1:14

a columnist for The New York Times. He

1:16

is also the author of The Washington Book.

1:20

Thank you very much for being here. Carlos, welcome.

1:22

Your first time on Washington Week. Big

1:24

time. It's a big time thing.

1:26

Big fan. Big, big, big, first time caller.

1:30

We're very happy to have you here and congratulations on your book.

1:32

We'll talk about it in a minute. I

1:34

want to talk about the State of the Union. Before

1:36

we talk about it, I want you to

1:39

just watch a brief excerpt from Joe Biden's

1:41

performance last night. The

1:44

issue facing our nation isn't

1:47

how old we are. It's

1:49

how old our ideas. Hey,

1:52

anger, revenge, retribution are the oldest

1:54

of ideas. But you

1:56

can't lead America with ancient ideas.

2:00

take us back. You need

2:02

America, the land of possibilities. You

2:04

need a vision for the future and what can

2:06

and should be done. So

2:10

Asma, I'm struck by this. A lot

2:12

of people were struck by the sheer

2:14

level of energy that he was bringing.

2:16

Part of it was because we had

2:18

been told by the Republicans that he's

2:20

practically on his deathbed. Part

2:23

of it was because we've all noticed that

2:25

sometimes his voice doesn't project in the way

2:27

that it used to. It

2:30

was a very, very energetic, impassioned

2:32

performance. Give us your... That's

2:34

true. And certainly there were some moments where

2:36

he stumbled, but I would also say he

2:38

was interrupted multiple times by different hecklers and

2:41

he had no qualms. In fact, he seemed

2:43

to enjoy these moments of sparring with Republicans,

2:45

whether it was on taxes, Social Security, immigration.

2:47

But what I was really struck by is

2:50

if you compare this speech to his previous

2:52

state of the unions, there was more of

2:54

an undercurrent of unity working together, big legislative

2:56

achievements. This was very different. It was a

2:59

campaign speech. It was the kickoff of a

3:01

general election campaign. And it was a clear

3:03

contrast from Republicans on everything from abortion to

3:05

immigration to the economy. And to me, the

3:07

most interesting part, I know I didn't get

3:10

a lot of headlines, was actually the economy.

3:12

I think that this is a real vulnerability

3:14

for President Biden. When you look at poll

3:16

after poll Republicans have somewhere between

3:18

like 15 to even 20 percent of an advantage

3:20

on the economy, one pollster I

3:22

talked to said to Linda, like Democratic pollster said, Democrats

3:25

win the presidential when they break even on the economy.

3:27

And so Biden has work to do. And I think

3:29

you heard some of that last night. Eugene?

3:32

Yeah, I mean, it felt like he was

3:35

one comedian doing those videos where they like

3:37

do crowd work, right? Like he really gets

3:39

excited and playing with them and fighting and

3:41

going back and forth. But also it felt

3:43

like a president who had finally decided to

3:46

run an election and be the president of the

3:48

time we have now, not the time when he

3:51

was a senator, when everyone was like nice to

3:53

each other and you can disagree in Front

3:55

of the cameras, but you walk together

3:57

behind the scenes. Those days are gone.

3:59

He has accepted that. and when I

4:01

talked and just signed for Chief of

4:03

Staff on Wednesday that for raised expectations

4:05

that I do worry for know this

4:07

is a big sea sick as you

4:09

know we have some look senior the

4:11

soup biggest current is going to get

4:13

and he was again in islam do

4:16

great know the oh okay previews of

4:18

each other's to put down but because

4:20

republicans for years have been saying basically

4:22

that this man his abdomen so I

4:24

like when that's the bar than anything

4:26

above that is gonna be much better.

4:28

I think President Biden love these kinds.

4:30

Of interactions when you travel with him as

4:32

you have done as well in a kind

4:34

of call and response whether good or bad

4:36

that is what he likes to do and

4:38

see. This was awful for any and better

4:40

and is that people had it. Since I'm

4:42

in a democrats have wanted to see this

4:45

from him. Not to Spikes we want to

4:47

seem have energies they want to see a

4:49

fight to the I bet would be didn't

4:51

want to settle somewhere for democratic. I don't

4:53

think it was of persuasion. Yes right right

4:55

Scarlets I've You're watching this on. You've been

4:57

studying Biden, reading Biden for for years. What

4:59

about. Would have a deeper theme said. Than. Struck.

5:02

You. You. Know people are saying

5:04

that we saw you know Austin Joe were

5:06

Angry Joe A rowdy Joe. I.

5:09

Saw History, Joe and enough think about

5:11

where he started the speech right at

5:13

the beginning. The first thing he puts

5:15

us in the nineteen forties with Fdr.

5:17

You maybe not. they were not a

5:19

smart move on. worry motivate what he

5:21

puts in nineteen forties ft are defending

5:23

democracy with Europe at war and Hitler

5:25

on the March right then immediately pivots

5:27

to the Civil War and more with

5:29

Lincoln in protecting democracy and freedom at

5:31

home. That's in the first two minutes

5:33

of the speech we've already gone through

5:35

Fdr and Lincoln later on were with

5:37

Reagan. You know, I'm. Calling

5:40

for Mr. Gorbachev to tear down

5:42

the wall, right? See? Was.

5:44

Implicitly or explicitly putting. Our.

5:46

Moment. In comparison to those moments

5:49

in kind of putting himself in that.

5:51

Pantheon. Of of Presidents are

5:53

you know he kept saying history is

5:55

watching us right? Sounded almost like like

5:57

like camels and or something about it.

6:00

He is comfortable in

6:02

that. Zone. And I think

6:04

it's he thinks. This. Election is similar

6:06

in the sense that it's you know,

6:08

a big historical pivot moment. He was

6:11

talk about inflection points and so it's

6:13

not just sort of beating Trump. he

6:15

feels that sees you know, defending American

6:17

values and American freedoms against Trump isn't

6:19

it though? He also made very clear

6:22

what the topics of his in the

6:24

center point of his reelection going to

6:26

be both democracy and Dobbs. Right when

6:28

you talk that there's like five or

6:31

ten minutes. He talked about Janeway six.

6:33

He talked about arm in and spend.

6:35

A lot of time talking about that insurrection

6:37

he talked about. I bf an abortion without

6:39

think abortion I will say it's many abortion

6:42

advocates would very upset for him with i'm

6:44

not saying the word avoid hundred accent simple

6:46

and despite it being and the remarks that

6:48

were sent out to us before his the

6:51

so it was in the speech at some

6:53

point he didn't say so. The very upset

6:55

about that's what Dobson Democracy is what this

6:57

election is about for this guy. Awesome. He

6:59

didn't say the word trump either My predecessor

7:02

not it doesn't or entity I predecessor. why

7:04

is that. And you know that's an

7:06

interesting question. why not? I mean I think part

7:08

of this is just Joe Biden style like he's

7:10

not one especially in any believes in a think

7:13

the structure, these institutions and and the decorum of

7:15

this type of the Ab and and this is

7:17

a huge and so I don't think it's of

7:19

then you are a place where he would do

7:21

that am But I do think it was interesting

7:24

characterization for him to choose not to go after

7:26

Trump finances and I think we will certainly see

7:28

him go after from by name. but in this

7:30

particular venue state of the union I think he

7:33

believes that is still I to be a. Level

7:35

of kind of decorum. In

7:38

the car was going your points. The

7:40

reason that he thinks this is so

7:42

historically significant is because he believes that

7:44

Trump is anti democratic right and South.

7:46

so that's it. That's the first and

7:48

foremost thing on his mind is that

7:51

fair to say If you look at

7:53

V. Two. Videos with

7:55

which he opened. His. to

7:57

presidential campaigns most recent was a campaign twenty

7:59

twenty in 2024. It's

8:02

all about protecting the soul of America. That's

8:04

an essay he wrote for The Atlantic as

8:06

well. And in the first

8:08

instance, I'm here to

8:10

serve. And selfless New York Times man

8:13

over here. In the first

8:15

instance, it was about protecting

8:17

the soul of America in the context

8:19

of Charlottesville. In the

8:21

second, it was about protecting the soul of America

8:23

in the context of January So

8:26

this is, thematically, this is absolutely one of

8:28

the big themes. And sometimes people tell

8:30

him that it's not something he should

8:32

be focused on, that it's too ethereal. What does that

8:34

really mean? What's the soul of America stuff anyway? But

8:37

it's something that he seems very devoted to. It's something he

8:39

seems very devoted to. But I will say,

8:42

I still remain somewhat skeptical about how much

8:44

it actually means something tangible to voters. Right.

8:47

Because when you go out and you talk to voters, you hear about the

8:49

economy, you hear about abortion. Once in a

8:51

while, you hear about democracy. But to your point,

8:53

this administration, this White House believes very firmly that

8:55

it is a winning message. Right. Let

8:58

me pivot to the Republican response

9:00

to the, and let's keep a straight face,

9:03

please, because we're a very

9:05

serious show here. I want to pivot

9:07

to the Republican response, Senator Katie Britt

9:09

of Alabama. Why don't you just listen

9:11

to this one brief snippet. This

9:15

is the United States of America.

9:18

And it is past time, in my opinion,

9:20

that we start acting like it. President

9:25

Biden's border policies are

9:28

a disgrace. This

9:30

crisis is despicable. And

9:33

the truth is, it is almost

9:35

entirely preventable. So

9:45

yeah, I mean, I mean, you know, the

9:47

thing is, she is a pretty well-received, you

9:49

know, respected person, pretty well-respected in Alabama politics.

9:54

You know, I guess people in Washington know

9:56

that the first rule of Fight Club is never

9:58

give the response. They can you

10:00

elaborate as right? Nobody? Nobody. very very

10:02

seldom does somebody really performed. Yeah well,

10:04

but what what was going on there?

10:07

I mean first Hope bit of a

10:09

very talented politicians right? When you talk

10:11

to her on the hill where you

10:13

watch videos of her in interviews of

10:15

her seven sound like that at all.

10:17

Relics of that was part of the

10:19

problem. There is a clip that they

10:21

sent out season out on her own

10:23

twitter. His last x com esses is

10:25

like a garden doing the state of

10:27

Union to the sound like that. And

10:29

so one. If you know who's it was,

10:31

he sounds like it sounds kind of Brits

10:33

extremely overwrought. but then even if you don't

10:35

is just kind of awkward right? See his

10:37

by herself see which is kind of always

10:39

how they're they're doing is after the pomp

10:41

and circumstance of the President of the United

10:43

States. But then there was there was the

10:45

things she was saying was one thing right?

10:47

I think republicans were happy about that. I

10:49

for from a lot a Republican women they

10:51

were upset about the kitchen aspect of it

10:53

have a lot of this woman being in

10:55

the kitchen. but dinner with the biting off

10:58

of the words it was the kind of.

11:00

Kind of that. The themes were all kind

11:02

of all over. The place is just felt

11:04

awkward to people. I think you know is

11:06

I don't know why people keep doing these

11:09

arms and I will never sign up about

11:11

politicians to do that. The response the seat

11:13

of the units because it hasn't I don't

11:15

think it's ever worked on. I can think

11:18

of one where where it's been of this

11:20

this that the next step for up for

11:22

this person in in their trajectory curls. This

11:24

reminds me of the American Carnage speech Donald

11:27

Trump's inaugural speech. or it's American Cars but

11:29

without pie and backs Blasts. It was kind

11:31

of us a very strange a I put us

11:33

in some time to contact the worse. It was

11:35

a very jarring speech because the to. Sort

11:38

of Themes were. This this

11:41

meant to both terrify you and comfort you

11:43

right at the same time. And those those

11:45

kind of class rights. So you know that

11:47

the fear factor was pretty clear. It's like

11:49

you know Americans are being raped and murdered

11:51

and your kids could be next, right? I'm

11:54

not. I'm not exaggerating, that's that's that's the

11:56

tenor of this of the speech and it

11:58

reminded me both of American. Which

12:00

was Trump's inaugural speech, but also went

12:02

back to his very first. Speech.

12:05

As a candidate and twenty fifteen when you

12:07

know. He said Mexicans. Mexico's not sending their

12:09

best, they're sending rapists rights and this was

12:11

sort of that. But like amp it up

12:14

even even further was a lot of rape

12:16

content. He a man, Yes, a lot of

12:18

a lot of specificity Eames because. She was

12:20

chosen in many ways because of who she

12:22

is, a millennial republican moms who could be

12:24

a symbolic counterpoint to as she describes the

12:27

Dithering the ah, you know, President Biden that

12:29

as a explicitly her words that she's a

12:31

dithering diminished Biden And yet I think that

12:33

she was not really emblematic of we're a

12:35

whole bunch of women of her age are

12:38

and India The could have been an opportunity

12:40

I think. Thread the needle a little bit

12:42

more carefully may be the only moment she

12:44

did that it was when she spoke about

12:47

wanting to defend either. Yes, That's an

12:49

awesome honestly with your to the

12:51

to am I said the that

12:53

the big subject of the week

12:55

which is the this the clarity

12:57

that we have now that Donald

12:59

Trump is gonna be the Republican.

13:01

our presumptive Republican nominee going up

13:03

against Joe Biden, the obvious Democratic

13:05

nominee is most unusual on any

13:07

number of rounds of. One reason

13:09

it's unusual is because we haven't

13:11

had two presidents run against each

13:13

other since A seemingly to that

13:15

was when Grover Cleveland unseated Benjamin

13:17

Harrison. Who had defeated him for years

13:20

earlier Benjamin Harrison by the way is

13:22

he had migrated from every home state

13:24

of our and of our resident Apple

13:26

says I'm going to party than I

13:28

did nothing against when I landed on

13:30

another usher and by the quit his

13:32

that's one of the money aspect that

13:34

the whims of this campaign of it

13:36

i i one of you to focus

13:39

on on on. On on

13:41

one very important question which is

13:43

how did Republicans come around? To

13:46

accepting. Donald. Trump. As

13:48

their candidate. Again, For before you answer,

13:51

just listener: Mitch Mcconnell. I'm from Twenty

13:53

Twenty One and then from this week.

13:57

There's. No question. Ron. The

14:00

President Trump is practically. And.

14:03

Morally. Responsible. For.

14:07

Provoking the events. Of.

14:09

The day. No

14:11

question about. in February, Twenty

14:14

Twenty one. Shortly

14:16

after the attack on the com. And

14:19

I would support for Israel, but he was

14:21

the nominee of our party and he obviously

14:23

is going to be the nominee in our

14:25

glorious. So.

14:29

Take us through this. I'm It

14:32

seems improbable. If you around

14:34

on January Seventh, Eighth, ninth, ten twenty

14:36

twenty one that that were here but

14:39

the Republicans have. Fully.

14:41

Accepted this as as and on that.

14:43

That's true. I think as a few reasons

14:45

and one is I would argue that they

14:47

see there is an inevitability and the Republican

14:49

base of the party is with Donald Trump.

14:52

I mean we're observing this this weekend is

14:54

the Rnc meeting in Houston and and in

14:56

which and you know Trump's hand picked people

14:58

are not going to be leading the party.

15:00

This is very much Donald Trump's party and

15:02

I don't think they have a choice. I

15:04

think more interesting than even someone like Mitch

15:07

Mcconnell is you're seeing someone like the Governor

15:09

of New Hampshire as the new come out

15:11

right to be supportive now of Donald. Trump.

15:13

We were having interesting debate in the newsroom the other

15:15

day about whether or not you're going to see the

15:17

folks who supported Nikki Haley come around to Donald Trump

15:19

sooner or what you'd have the folks who were uncommitted

15:21

until biting some. Granted, I fell into the camp that

15:24

I think Bidens can have a tougher problem with his

15:26

base. Insistence of Go have every

15:28

largely thoughtful about power right you when

15:30

you if you know Miss Mcconnell and

15:32

been covered Miss Mcconnell. Miss Mcconnell cares

15:35

about really one thing stuff that Senate

15:37

right? He cares about that majority. In

15:39

so in his mind getting behind Donald

15:41

Trump is the fastest way to have

15:44

us in the majority even though he's

15:46

not going to be in charge of

15:48

that's in a majority to have bad

15:50

for Republicans going into the next next

15:52

next congress. Now will also say that

15:55

was a feeder among republicans. have the

15:57

space race is it was inevitable because

15:59

they chose to, right? We all

16:01

remember when Kevin McCarthy went

16:04

up to Mar-a-Lago after January 6,

16:07

kissed the ring, had that very awkward picture that

16:09

they ended up taking and putting out. That was

16:11

it. When I saw that, and I think a

16:13

lot of reporters and folks watching saw that and

16:15

said, oh, this is it. Trump is back. Republicans

16:17

are going to fall back in line, because once

16:20

the leaders of the party started doing it, the

16:22

folks within the party were like,

16:24

well, I guess that's what we're going with,

16:26

because, you know, leaders are supposed to lead

16:28

and not follow. Right. So, Carlos, I

16:31

want to talk a little bit about your methods. I

16:35

mean, this book, which is a fascinating book,

16:38

your specialty is deep reading

16:40

of Washington documents, Washington biographies,

16:42

autobiographies, all manner of Washington

16:45

nonfiction. And that's what this

16:48

book is. In your most

16:50

recent column, you read for your

16:52

readers 887 pages of a report

16:58

called Mandate for Leadership. It's a conservative

17:00

blueprint for 2025. Now that we're heading

17:02

into the general election, it's a

17:04

great time to ask you and thank you for reading

17:06

it so we don't have to read 887 pages

17:09

of I assume very dry prose.

17:12

But very revealing prose. Well, why did

17:15

it reveal? Yeah. So this is, I

17:17

should emphasize, it's not officially a Trump

17:19

campaign document. It's not been endorsed by

17:22

the Trump campaign. However,

17:25

among its dozens of contributors, it has many, many

17:28

former Trump administration officials.

17:31

And Trump has mentioned about

17:33

300 times in this book compared

17:36

to once for Nikki Haley, for instance.

17:38

So you can see the affinity there.

17:40

The purpose of this is to be

17:42

ready to govern on day one. It's

17:44

an implicit admission that they really

17:46

weren't ready to govern on day one the last time

17:48

around. There's a lot in

17:50

it. It breaks down the federal executive branch, like

17:53

agency by agency, office by office. But I think

17:55

there's three kind of main themes.

17:58

One is flood the zone. known

18:00

with political appointees, right? Like people who

18:02

will be loyal to the president, loyal

18:04

to the agenda of the new administration,

18:07

and both kind

18:09

of oversee and push out the

18:11

career civil servants. Second,

18:15

to politicize the Justice Department, right? The one thing

18:17

you see, and I'm not like reading tea leaves

18:19

here, it's very overt in the book. They

18:23

emphasize how, for instance, the

18:25

White House Counsel's office and

18:27

the DOJ have to work as a team. That's

18:30

a quote. How the FBI

18:32

director should be as aligned with

18:34

the president's agenda as any other

18:37

agency had. Those

18:40

kinds of things. Also, they just say

18:42

that, look, remember, the DOJ is under the control

18:44

and direction of the president. And

18:46

therefore, even litigation decisions have to be

18:48

consistent with the president's agenda. But

18:51

the main message of this book is

18:54

that for all the rhetoric

18:56

about the need to dismantle the

18:58

administrative stage, downsize the government, that's

19:00

not really what you see here.

19:02

They pay lip service to it,

19:04

but they want to enlist it. They want

19:06

to harness it. They want to take it out for a

19:09

spin, see how fast it will go. And

19:11

that, I think, is

19:14

frankly why they

19:16

have such detail in this document, not because they just want to

19:18

tear it all down. They want to redirect

19:21

it. Right. Yuzheng, do

19:23

you think that Republicans on the

19:25

Hill are aligned with this project

19:28

in the way that obviously Trump loyalists are

19:30

aligned? Yeah. I mean, I think it depends

19:32

on what chamber you're talking about first. In

19:35

the House, probably so. There's probably many more

19:37

people in the House. Republican conference

19:39

who are in line with this document. I

19:41

think senators tend not to be as much.

19:43

These are people who, one, they don't have

19:45

to run every two years. They get six

19:47

years. So they're a little bit more common,

19:50

tend to be a little bit more moderate.

19:52

There are some outliers, Holly, Ted

19:54

Cruz, those kinds of folks, Rand

19:56

Paul. But I

19:58

think the thing that we saw, during

20:00

this primary, what we saw during the

20:02

Trump years, is that Republicans will largely

20:04

get in line. And so if Trump

20:06

is to become president again,

20:08

and they are to use this 300 page doc,

20:12

or this 800 something page document, excuse

20:14

me, and use

20:16

that as what they're going to do, I think

20:18

largely they will just kind of get in line

20:20

with those kinds of things. There will be some

20:22

folks who will talk out loud and be angry

20:24

about it, but people like Mitt Romney are leaving

20:26

the Senate. And so there's gonna be a lot

20:28

more space for people who are much more politicized.

20:31

Let me ask you to in the last

20:33

minute that we have left, it's a very

20:35

basic question, but are you surprised

20:37

we are where we are? I

20:42

think that you can be

20:44

shocked without being surprised.

20:47

And I think that's where I fall. Every

20:50

day what you see feels

20:53

shocking, but when you watch the

20:55

whole trajectory of American politics

20:57

from 2015 onward, it

21:00

almost seems inevitable. Asma,

21:02

last word to you. Yeah, I think that's

21:04

a beautiful way of putting it. I don't think that it's

21:06

particularly surprising. I mean, I look at Donald Trump, and

21:08

I said this when I covered the 2016 campaign, that

21:12

he tapped into a pre-existing condition in American

21:14

society. I think he was very effective at

21:16

doing so, but I don't

21:19

think what he did was create anything new.

21:21

He certainly capitalized that. But

21:23

without Donald Trump, do you think we'd

21:25

be where we are today with a

21:27

plan on the part of the Republican

21:29

Party to dismantle and remake a

21:31

new initiative? I don't think we'd be there

21:33

without Donald Trump. I mean, he certainly tapped into

21:35

this sentiment that was brewing, but

21:38

then he capitalized on it. I

21:41

want to continue this conversation, and we will

21:43

continue this conversation because it's a long campaign

21:45

ahead of us, but unfortunately we need to

21:47

leave it there for right now. I want

21:49

to thank our panelists for joining us and

21:51

for sharing their reporting. I recommend highly Carlos

21:54

Lazada's book. It's a

21:56

fascinating and revealing portrait of

21:58

Washington as Washington, something... doesn't want

22:00

to be seen. So for

22:02

more on Donald Trump's financial challenges,

22:04

please visit theatlantic.com. And

22:07

on PBS News Weekend tomorrow, with Trump's

22:09

dominant win on Super Tuesday, we have

22:11

a look at the future of the

22:13

Republican Party. I'm Jeffrey Goldberg.

22:15

Good night from Washington.