0:00

In the world of startups and small businesses

0:02

, adopting cutting-edge technology

0:04

often seems like a massive leap , but

0:06

what if the power of AI and machine learning

0:08

wasn't out of reach ? If you've ever

0:10

found yourself questioning the accessibility

0:12

of such technologies , wondering how

0:15

on earth you could possibly integrate into your business

0:17

, then you're not alone , and it just

0:19

so happens that our guest today went through the same

0:21

thing . You're listening

0:23

to Peer Effect , the podcast that fuels you with new

0:25

ideas and inspiration through interviews with

0:27

founders and experts who have made it happen . If

0:30

it's your first time listening , my name is James Johnson

0:33

and I coach Series A Plus founders to take

0:35

back control so they can take their

0:37

business further and live a great life . Today

0:40

, we're joined by Kirsten Lum , cto and

0:42

co-founder of Storytellersai .

0:46

Today we're joined by Kirsten Lum , CTO and co-founder

0:48

of Storytellersai . Storytellersai

0:55

is both a consultancy and a platform organization that aims to bring machine learning and AI technology

0:57

to the companies that maybe haven't even

0:59

started using that technology

1:01

yet . The background for it was

1:04

I used to work in big tech . I was at Amazon

1:06

for about six years . I led data

1:08

science , econometrics , software engineers

1:10

, data scientists , business intelligence all

1:12

kind of like data roles at Amazon

1:15

, and what I saw is that , as you know , amazon's

1:17

all these tiny businesses under one big umbrella

1:19

. It's like a bunch of startups all together , and what

1:21

we saw is that each of these little startups , each of these

1:23

small companies , could really use

1:26

ML to transform the way that they were

1:28

serving their customers . But if

1:30

you're outside of this umbrella of Amazon

1:32

, I could see how hard it would be to

1:35

get the expertise or the funds

1:37

. These people are expensive to hire and

1:39

to pay , and so it would be

1:41

so hard for a small organization to actually

1:43

use machine learning in their day day , even if it would really

1:45

help them serve their customers . So our thought was

1:47

can we build technology and services

1:50

that allow small organizations think

1:52

, local government , higher education

1:54

, small retailers or

1:56

, you know , large retailers can

1:59

to serve their people with

2:01

these advanced techniques , and we've seen that

2:03

these techniques have helped , you know , organizations of lots

2:05

of different sizes to grow and to

2:07

better serve their customers over time .

2:10

I mean , you're coming to this with clearly a lot of experience

2:12

in this field , which takes us nicely on to the first

2:14

question , which is with

2:17

this whole backstory , what

2:19

is a unique piece of insight that you

2:21

would like to share ?

2:23

Yeah , one of the topics that I talk about the most

2:25

really is about how I

2:27

got into being a data scientist , because

2:29

a lot of founders that are CTOs

2:32

or people that are data scientists

2:34

who have the titles of like ML engineer

2:36

are people with like PhDs in math

2:39

and , you know , went to prestigious

2:41

colleges for this purpose . But

2:43

actually I started out my degree was

2:45

in English literature , so it

2:48

couldn't be as far apart

2:50

. As you know . That's the farthest apart you can get from

2:52

data science . You know ML engineering , you

2:54

know , but I actually have an English degree and

2:57

I had a long kind

2:59

of winding journey to finding this

3:01

career , as what I was really passionate

3:03

about and I can give like a few of those

3:06

highlights and what I really found through

3:08

that journey is

3:10

, number one , that there are

3:12

a lot of ways that past

3:15

experiences that may not seem like

3:17

they're related can come into play

3:19

and be an asset is as a

3:21

founder , and especially

3:23

in areas where

3:25

you're serving people of diverse backgrounds

3:28

. And then number two is

3:30

that a lot of the things that may

3:32

appear like they

3:34

are out of reach or there's too big of a barrier

3:37

to be able to achieve in that arena really

3:39

come down to ability

3:41

to be curious and humble and

3:44

teachable , and that those actually

3:46

I mean there's many ways that those

3:48

skills actually are the most foundational

3:50

to be able to achieve when I was growing up . If

3:52

you told me that I would call myself a scientist

3:54

when I was a kid , that would have been like

3:57

almost insulting to

3:59

me as a kid , because I was like writing

4:02

and doing art and theater and music . I did

4:04

a lot of music all the way through

4:06

like high school and

4:08

I swore off math . I lived in

4:11

a fairly rural place and so

4:13

the idea

4:15

that I would work and

4:17

love math in the future was just so foreign

4:19

to me and I even didn't

4:22

really know that I wanted to go to college

4:24

. I had , you know , I

4:26

was really thinking about like maybe I'll be an artist , like that's

4:28

actually what I want to be . Is I want to be an artist

4:30

? But you know , I really did like

4:32

hear the feedback of a lot of parents

4:34

, like my parents and my teachers are like you really

4:36

should probably go and get a degree , it's probably important

4:39

for you to do , and so I

4:41

decided you know , one of the things I love doing is learning

4:43

languages . So I was like , okay , I'm going to go to college to

4:46

learn Japanese , and so I actually ended

4:48

up . I went to community college for a while , ended

4:51

up at the university of Washington , which is the best college

4:53

in Washington state for learning

4:55

Japanese , and I bombed out so

4:57

, like I'd been learning Japanese for like three years

4:59

, my first course in like the university

5:02

to go to for Japanese , I like I mean almost

5:04

failed in D minus . And it

5:06

really was this crisis of like what

5:09

do I do with this reality , this

5:15

thing , this one thing that I

5:17

thought I could go to college do , and

5:21

in that crisis , this is . You know , those serendipitous moments are so important where just opening

5:23

yourself up to experiences , where you might get like the spark

5:25

. I was on a bus just

5:27

going through downtown Seattle . I ended up at

5:29

the Seattle Public Library , which , if

5:31

you've never seen it , I highly encourage

5:33

you to like look up a picture of this building . It

5:35

is gorgeous . This is beautiful modern

5:37

building . It's so many stories

5:40

. You can go all the way to the top . It's like a tower at

5:42

the top that you can look down over this massive library

5:45

. And in that moment I was like I'm going to be

5:47

a librarian , that's what I'm going to be . It

5:49

like . For me , it felt like it threaded through this , like

5:51

the writing and the reading

5:53

and all that , like that's what I'm going to do , I'm going to be a librarian but

6:09

turns out library science is actually a master's , and then go back and get my master's become

6:11

a librarian . Well , in between , after I got my English degree and I was on my path to become a librarian

6:13

, the reality is that you still need to live in that time period and , like one of the things I was

6:15

, I was working at that time . I

6:17

was working in a freezer in Whole

6:19

Foods . So Whole Foods if you ever buy those like cups

6:22

of cut fruit , those are

6:24

made by someone in a freezer in the back of

6:26

the store , and so that's what

6:28

I was doing in Seattle . So there's like wake up before

6:30

the sun is up , go work in a freezer all day and then

6:32

the sun goes down before I go home

6:34

. It was miserable , miserable

6:37

, and so I was so motivated to

6:39

get out of this scenario . I

6:41

ended up talking to one of my friends

6:43

you should just join the startup that I'm at . You

6:46

know you should apply . I applied to that

6:48

job , no reason I should have gotten that job

6:50

, but I got through the hiring

6:52

process , and it was at that

6:54

startup that I first encountered

6:56

businesses . Like

6:58

I came from a super rural place , and so this

7:01

was the first time that I actually really saw a business

7:03

running from the inside . How do you build a product

7:05

? How do you help people know about that product

7:07

? How do you get customer feedback for that product All

7:10

that you know system . It

7:12

just like really gripped me . Like that was the moment

7:14

where I became an entrepreneur . I feel like was the was

7:17

when I started working at this startup and

7:20

my the boss of that startup , the GM

7:22

for that startup , was the one who

7:24

saw that I had some talent for

7:26

doing this . Like , despite all odds , you wouldn't

7:28

have thought from my background that this would be something

7:30

that I would have any talent at

7:32

, but he saw that and he really did mentor

7:35

me in like learning about this

7:37

whole world of entrepreneurship that I'd never been

7:39

exposed to before . Well

7:41

, turns out , after working together

7:43

for like 11 months , he and I were

7:45

like this really works , this partnership

7:47

really works , and that is my now husband

7:50

is the GM of that company

7:52

. So , yes , that's right

7:54

. So , by the way side tip

7:56

, you know , if you find someone who's a great mentor

7:59

, has great advice , is really helping you with your

8:01

life . I do recommend marrying them

8:03

. That is a great move , but you

8:05

know , check with it , make sure that HR and

8:07

everyone knows .

8:08

I mean if your husband on the podcast his piece of advice

8:10

might be hire your wife by the sounds of it

8:12

, yeah , exactly that's what it's actually turned

8:14

out very well .

8:15

We can talk about that too of like how fun it is to

8:17

work with your spouse . But

8:19

, yes , at that point I was like , ok

8:29

, I need to leave the startup . It's not a great environment to be in a small company where you're

8:31

dating the you know the GM . So ended up at Expedia where I learned and this really comes down to Wingy's

8:33

gift Wingy's , my husband , his gift for like how you break

8:35

down what you need to be able to do

8:37

to be in a role into the things

8:39

you need to learn and show the experience that

8:42

you can do those things . That's one of the best things

8:44

about being like a founder and a self-taught person

8:46

is like you don't know what you don't know

8:48

. You don't know how hard it is to do those things . No

8:50

one's told you how hard it is . So you just try like

8:52

you try these things . That like , in hindsight , like that was

8:54

nuts , like that was nuts to try

8:57

and do that . But now , like I'm so glad

8:59

that I didn't know what cliff I was

9:01

leaping off of , and that cliff for me

9:03

there was learning Python . I

9:05

was , I was working on this process there as an analyst

9:07

, was all in Excel and

9:10

I mean , I'm sure everyone's had that experience

9:13

of like horrible Excel spreadsheets

9:15

that you're just like wrangling constantly . It's

9:18

just a nightmare . And I

9:20

was so tired of this process . One of my mentors

9:22

was like that sounds like something that should be a Python script . I was

9:24

like of this process . One of my mentors was like that sounds like something that should

9:26

be a Python script . I was like , sure , sounds good . So on nights and weekends I like turned it

9:28

into a Python script . It went from taking

9:31

30 hours a week , three people , 10 hours a

9:33

week to do to eight seconds and

9:37

I was like that was where I was hooked . That was where I was like okay , this

9:39

is like the tool that can change so

9:41

much and

9:43

so , but even still , I think about like

9:46

all those experiences . And

9:51

then after that I went to Amazon and that's where my real data science journey

9:53

began , with like learning , machine learning , that same concept of like

9:55

not in a in the best way possible , not knowing what

9:57

you don't know , not being

9:59

too risk averse , really taking

10:02

those risks and building the skills

10:04

. Where you're seeing you're doubling

10:06

down on the things that you're seeing bear

10:08

fruit Like , and I was just seeing it

10:10

every time I would go into a new organization . It's like if

10:13

I can help them with data , they

10:15

will . They will give

10:17

me more work than I can do every time , and

10:19

that's what job security is . You know , like

10:21

where there's you can see there's way more work

10:24

than you can ever do and your skills

10:26

are in high demand . Like just double down

10:28

, double down , double down . And that's how I got into ml

10:30

and ai . And but

10:32

even still , I think about , like my english degree

10:34

, one of the main things that I ended

10:37

up doing when I was in in these roles

10:39

with ai is explaining to people

10:41

what these machine learning algorithms

10:43

were doing . And all of that was

10:45

just my communication skills being able to

10:47

write well I mean , think about it , amazon , I'm writing six

10:49

page papers all the time . Being able to write

10:52

well , being able to speak well , being able to

10:54

reason well , put

10:56

together an argument to describe why

10:58

something is true . That's all stuff that

11:00

I learned in my English degree and I really think

11:03

was part of the reason why I would take

11:05

on a responsibility and immediately get the

11:07

next responsibility to , as I doubled

11:09

down on this , on this path

11:12

. Additive , it's

11:15

multiplicative when you have past

11:17

experiences that very few

11:19

people in your industry do

11:26

. It can be multiplicative in your ability

11:28

to serve . For me

11:30

being able to serve small businesses because

11:32

I have the communication skills to speak

11:34

to them in a way that they understand , not the

11:36

way that the math PhDs were speaking to them , which

11:39

, frankly , was a lot of times out of reach

11:41

for them to understand . So that's a big

11:43

one . Don't discount all your past

11:46

experiences as being assets for

11:48

you as you move into various

11:50

parts of your growth with

11:52

your organization .

11:54

So , to summarize this , what you're saying , kirsten , is

11:56

that your historic

11:58

skills are actually really important , but

12:00

we should also be very deliberate about the new skills that

12:02

we pick up , based on

12:04

where the real area of need is that

12:07

we see in the businesses or the environments that we're

12:09

in .

12:10

Exactly , and it can be a

12:12

source of creativity in your organization

12:15

that maybe is untapped . I think about

12:17

people who started out

12:19

in biology and ended

12:21

up learning engineering and then suddenly combine

12:24

those two things to make a product that no one has

12:26

ever seen , two

12:28

things to make a product that no one has ever seen . Or I see this a lot

12:30

with people with engineering skills but also a lot of historical job experience

12:33

in like education , like who

12:35

better to build products that

12:37

teachers will actually use than a former

12:40

teacher , and that kind of thing

12:42

is where I see real

12:44

breakthrough products . I see those

12:46

happening where people have this unique combination

12:49

of experience that almost

12:51

no one else has the skill , experience

12:54

, whatever that is a personal

12:56

history . You know people who have been

12:58

homeless or have gone through immigration and understand

13:00

how hard it is . Those are the people

13:03

that can really understand how to solve a problem

13:05

and a need for a very large group

13:07

of people . So I use that as inspiration

13:09

all the time for how I , you know , go

13:12

through my work in my organization

13:14

. Serving people in my organization is using

13:16

those skills , those experiences and actually

13:19

using them as an asset .

13:22

What about an external influencer , if there's

13:24

someone that you would sort of add

13:27

to the network , someone

13:30

that you would sort of add to the network .

13:31

who ? Who's really interesting you at the moment ? Yeah , I have been really

13:34

interested in genetic

13:37

analysis recently

13:39

. I feel like most of us have this , especially

13:41

if you're a founder of a company which is a really demanding

13:44

job and we get really tired

13:46

because we're doing a lot of work , and

13:49

sometimes it feels like , on one hand , you

13:51

feel like , oh , this is normal for me to be this tired , but

13:54

a lot of people I find are coming

13:56

to the place where they're like this doesn't feel normal anymore

13:58

. This like brain fog , this fatigue

14:01

, you know , maybe it's like irritability

14:03

, inability to sleep , all of these different

14:06

like symptoms that we sort

14:08

of associate with being in a high stress job

14:10

actually could possibly

14:13

be like this indicator that

14:15

there's something up with your

14:17

. You know the way that your body works

14:19

. And , in particular , there's someone that is

14:21

really interesting in this space . His name is

14:23

Chris Masterjohn and

14:26

some people like he's . He's the kind

14:28

of person that's like huberman lab adjacent

14:31

is how I kind of describe it which I'm also

14:33

really interested in . All of that , you know , sort of world

14:35

um , but and then there's another

14:37

um gentleman who does

14:39

it's called tenex health solutions

14:42

, I think , and actually that's how my

14:44

husband and I found this individual is kind of following

14:46

the thread through a lot of these leaders in the space

14:48

of like . How is our genes

14:50

and , in particular , the way that our , our genetic

14:53

code influences the way that we process

14:55

the nutrients that we're taking in ? How does

14:57

that sort of form a basis for a lot

15:00

of different components of what we would describe as

15:02

health physical health or mental

15:04

health ? So , personally , what

15:06

we're finding is there's a few

15:08

services that you can use to get genomic

15:10

sequencing to identify these

15:12

really important variants

15:15

in what is called the methylation cycle

15:17

your body's ability to methylate

15:19

nutrients and using

15:21

that to actually pinpoint

15:24

what supplements may help

15:26

to increase your methylation

15:28

rate and which the effect of

15:30

that . A lot of people describe the

15:32

effect of that as having more energy . Some

15:36

people experience like weight loss . If

15:38

they've been struggling with weight loss or they experience

15:41

, you know , relief in

15:43

some of their symptoms of like

15:45

their pre-diabetic or you

15:47

know other symptoms like that , and so Chris Masterjohn

15:49

has a lot of really great videos

15:51

like on YouTube where he describes I've been

15:53

like geeking out about like the science behind it

15:56

, like you know , what are the genes

15:58

that are that make up the part of your genome

16:00

that cover this process , what

16:02

are the different variants you can have in those genes ? And if

16:04

you have variant A , that means

16:06

you likely need a higher dose of B12

16:09

because of the way that your methylation

16:11

process happens . So it's like taking

16:13

that that thing that to me has always

16:15

felt like sort of high level and like everyone takes

16:17

a lot of supplements , and it feels like very

16:19

general and like not personalized and it helps

16:21

you to actually personally identify

16:24

, you know , some of the things that might

16:26

improve your health .

16:27

And , following this , have you found that it's had an actual

16:29

impact on you ?

16:31

So the two things that I've found really

16:34

helpful tool-wise is there's a company

16:36

called sequencingcom and they will do a full

16:38

genome sequence , which is like your whole genetic

16:40

code . They'll sequence the whole thing . And

16:42

then there's another company called it's called the Genova

16:45

Methylation Panel . It's really targeted to

16:47

the genes responsible for methylation and

16:50

what we found you know it's my husband

16:52

and I are doing this he's really led

16:54

a lot of the charge with finding these services

16:56

and and getting us in

16:59

good , doing the blood work and all of that is

17:01

that if you've ever had the experience

17:03

where you've had an ailment for a

17:05

long time and you go in and you're you

17:07

, you finally find someone who's given you a

17:09

different answer to like what could be causing

17:11

it . Besides , like get enough exercise

17:13

and get enough sleep and like eat healthy Right , like that

17:15

, what you always get , it's like a more

17:18

specific answer . And then it also

17:20

connects dots between symptoms

17:22

that you never would have thought of before . So

17:25

a lot of folks are , um , for

17:27

instance , like if you have symptoms

17:29

of ADHD , like that can

17:31

be related to some of these genetic

17:33

markers , that it's actually methylation in your body

17:36

that gives you the symptoms of ADHD and

17:38

that's actually how you're going to get that specific nutrient

17:40

that helps you to , you know , relieve

17:42

the symptom that's been around for so

17:45

long . So , you know , we , we've

17:47

noticed changes in terms of like , even blood

17:49

markers for various health conditions and

17:51

things like that . Just

17:53

in being able to target that

17:56

part , you're basically your body's ability

17:59

to make energy and like , make that

18:01

system , like , tune that system up . So

18:03

, yes , totally , I'm personally

18:05

totally a fan of like exercise , eating healthy , you know , and getting plenty

18:07

of sleep , but also there's , there's a way , a fan of like exercise , eating healthy , you know , and getting

18:09

plenty of sleep , but also there's , there's a

18:11

way that you can access , like here's

18:13

how your your , your . This

18:16

is the code that your body is running on

18:18

, and this is what you know , personally

18:20

, may work better for you than than

18:22

the general advice that we constantly

18:24

get .

18:26

So it's almost like it's going . Okay , you're gonna run a car , make

18:28

sure it's got sort of fuel and water

18:30

in it and you keep the tires pumped

18:32

up to going . Actually , here's

18:34

a bit of a deeper diagnostic about how to tweak

18:36

the engine and just go a bit

18:38

more specific as opposed to just general .

18:41

Exactly . Yeah , there's all those things that you would generally

18:43

do for any car for maintenance but , like your

18:45

particular car , turns out that

18:47

it has this problem in the engine

18:49

and you need a different fuel mix

18:51

because of this problem . And

18:53

if you use a wrong fuel mix , like your car is going to

18:55

run like crap , but if you use this other mix

18:57

you actually your car is going to run fine .

18:59

Well , I mean , I think a lot of founders are beginning to come

19:01

around the idea that looking after themselves

19:03

is a is a business need , not just

19:05

a personal sort of luxury , and

19:08

this feels like a real sort of targeted next

19:10

level way of looking at things . And I've never

19:13

heard of the word methylate before today , so

19:15

that's also a win .

19:17

I mean , I really the rabbit

19:19

hole goes so deep and it's so interesting

19:22

and everyone that we've talked to about this

19:24

it like they start to in their mind

19:26

they're like , oh my gosh , like , yeah , that is connecting these dots . That people

19:28

it like they , they start to in their mind like , oh my gosh , like , yeah , that I've it's connecting

19:30

these dots . That people are like , that people just have sort of assumed

19:33

they just have to live with . You know , I'm getting older

19:35

or like I'm under a lot of stress and I just have to

19:37

live with feeling this way . But actually

19:40

maybe there's , you know , an opportunity

19:42

to alleviate some of that . And , to

19:44

your point , it's like the

19:46

business health and the health

19:48

of the founders and the people that work in it is a flywheel

19:51

, like the . If

19:53

the business is taking too

19:55

much from you physically , eventually

19:57

that's going to break down . And so , like finding

19:59

anything you can especially because it is high stress

20:01

, you know , finding anything that really

20:04

supports the long term

20:06

ability to be

20:08

alert , to feel healthy

20:10

, to have motivation . It's

20:13

a huge , it's a no-brainer investment

20:15

in my opinion .

20:16

And , let's be honest , all founders like to

20:19

find a secret cheat code . It's

20:21

kind of hardwired into us . There must be an easier , quicker

20:23

way of doing it . So , chris

20:25

Masterjohn , dive down the rabbit

20:27

hole for the sort of external

20:29

influence . And

20:33

the final key question . This is so what's

20:35

a sort of a

20:38

life hack or tip that you'd recommend to

20:40

other founders to really sort of improve their effectiveness

20:42

?

20:43

Yeah , this is

20:45

going to feel like

20:49

advice that probably you've

20:51

heard a bunch of times before on

21:10

the business , so that I can actually regenerate my energy in order to work on the business has been

21:12

the most important thing that I've been working on recently

21:14

in terms of , I think , my , my

21:17

health , especially if you have some

21:19

like neuro atypical things , like I tend

21:21

to think of myself , as you know , in some ways neuro

21:23

atypical One of the things that I struggle

21:26

with is , like I have so much

21:28

to do and mechanisms for

21:30

, like you know , task lists and things

21:32

like that are really critical to me . But one

21:34

of the things that I do constantly is I'm running through

21:37

my checklist of things that I need to do constantly

21:39

. Like 20% of my mental power is just running

21:41

through the checklist of things that I need to do on any given day

21:43

and I didn't realize how much

21:45

doing that was draining my energy

21:47

and kind of putting me into a state of paralysis

21:50

, like you can imagine . You have so

21:52

much to do , you eventually get to the place where you just like

21:54

your , your nervous system kind

21:56

of quits and it's like can't make a

21:58

choice . So I'm just gonna , you know , hang out . I'm

22:00

not my , my brain's just gonna , you know , kind of

22:02

shut off , and I saw someone

22:04

say describe it as like reboot in

22:07

mode is sometimes , when it feels like shut

22:09

down , reboot

22:14

in safe mode , which is not super helpful when you need to be on and you need to be making

22:16

decisions and things like that . And so the ability to

22:18

recognize , entering that state

22:20

of like I'm starting to hit , fight or flight

22:22

and I need to sort of have

22:24

a way of calming my nervous system down

22:27

so that in

22:29

the near term , um

22:31

, it helps you feel better , but in the long term , it

22:33

helps you to be more productive , which really is what we're

22:35

aiming for , right ? If we're honest , it's

22:37

like how do I just get through this again ? be , productive and

22:40

and that for me , like number one for me was sauna

22:43

. So we put a

22:45

sauna in our house and so it's above

22:47

, it's like 180 is where I start to

22:49

feel like really good , and

22:51

the heat like kind of turns

22:53

off my brain's ability to just like process

22:56

, process , process , because you're dealing with

22:58

this very intense

23:00

heat

23:04

biggest health hack besides

23:06

the stuff I just talked about with all the genetics

23:08

up having a mechanism that actually

23:10

turns off that processing

23:13

part of my brain so that I can get some

23:15

rest in order to come

23:18

back refreshed and continue when

23:20

it's like every day making all

23:22

of these decisions Like sauna for me has

23:24

been the number one tool for that , and there's some great research

23:27

about like reduces all cause mortality

23:29

, helps with a whole bunch of different symptoms

23:32

of various things , and so

23:34

that's my like . I guess that's my double tip

23:36

Number one have some sort of mechanism that allows

23:38

you to do that , and it takes trial and error

23:40

trying a bunch of things . Other thing

23:42

for me is writing music , because it turns on

23:44

a different part of my brain that needs all the resources

23:46

, and therefore the part of my brain that's trying to cycle

23:49

all my tasks . It just has to kind

23:51

of quiet down for a little bit , but iterating

23:53

through , finding that thing that allows you to like

23:55

mentally take a break and then being

23:58

really consistent about it so that

24:00

you do get 20 minutes a day

24:02

where you're not in that mode . You

24:04

really need to build it in , make it a habit and

24:07

iterate through and find the thing that gets you that relief

24:09

.

24:11

And is there a time element

24:13

to that , in terms of time of the day that you

24:16

find it most effective , or do you think it's just find

24:18

a time where you can get at least

24:20

20 minutes to switch your brain off ?

24:22

Yeah , mostly the latter and this is

24:24

again comes from like I'm I'm a

24:27

mom of two young kids and so

24:29

like that is like its own thing

24:31

, right , like I love the stories of founders that

24:33

are like I get up at five and I like do my cold shower

24:35

and I do my meditation and I do this thing . It's

24:37

just not going to be . That's not

24:39

what I aspire to and aspiring to that would be

24:41

negative , right . Like I wouldn't hit this aspiration

24:44

that I would get . So mornings for me are

24:46

like kids wake up . I wake up with the kids

24:48

. We're up at 630 , we're doing breakfast , we're

24:51

getting ready for the day , we're reading books together

24:53

. That's like my morning routine

24:55

, because that's so important to me . And

24:57

so I do think it is like finding

24:59

the time that works for you , not necessarily

25:02

thinking because there's a lot of templates for that and they're

25:04

all very stoic and very like

25:06

severe , right . Like these are like you

25:09

, when you hear from founders in these spaces , they're often doing very

25:11

severe things to themselves , but thinking

25:13

about what is sustainable , what's something

25:15

that actually makes me feel better afterwards

25:17

. And for me that's middle of the day . You know

25:20

little one goes down for a nap , then

25:22

I've got time to go and do sauna for 20

25:24

minutes and that actually works in my schedule , because then

25:26

we're doing bedtime at night . So that's what it is . Middle

25:28

of the day , do my sauna .

25:36

And that gives me that break to where I can really do this otherwise

25:38

marathon in the beginning of the day and the end of the day .

25:42

Do you find you need to turn your brain

25:44

off before going to sleep as well ? I

25:48

think I'm I'm less susceptible to that than other people that I know . I know some people who are really

25:50

susceptible to that . Where they're , when they're falling asleep , it's

25:52

like just thoughts , like they can't . They've

25:54

got racing thoughts as they're falling asleep . I

25:57

feel very fortunate that , I think because

25:59

of like the sleeplessness that you go through

26:01

with early , like when you have newborns , I

26:03

can sleep when I want to sleep regularly

26:06

. The question is , how quality is that sleep

26:08

? Because

26:13

even if you can get to sleep , there's the quality of the sleep that you're able to get when you are

26:15

sleeping . That's where I was suffering . So , even though I wasn't staying up I don't I don't struggle

26:18

with insomnia or anything like that but

26:20

when I was sleeping , you look at my health metrics , it's like

26:22

, oh , you're not getting like quality

26:24

sleep and that's where some of these , the habits

26:27

you do during the day allow

26:29

you to have

26:32

, allow your body to understand

26:34

it's time for sleep . This is the task that I'm

26:36

doing . I'm not going to do something else . Like that's

26:38

what I felt like . Is that like , even though I was sleeping

26:41

, my mind was still saying I'm trying to work on some other

26:43

task at the same time . So a lot of that

26:45

to your point , like routine . Another

26:48

you know side note thing that's helped with sleep

26:50

is red light therapy , so

26:53

that one seems to be something that folks are

26:55

finding a lot . It helps a lot with being able to fall

26:57

asleep . But having a routine and

27:00

really iterating through making it

27:02

sustainable , not like aspirational

27:05

, like what is my sustainable practice

27:08

throughout the day , that gives me rest so

27:11

that when I am awake I'm awake , and

27:13

when I'm working I'm working , but when I'm not

27:15

working I'm not working .

27:17

You know , because that's when the regeneration

27:19

will happen I thought I mean I

27:21

do something some middle of the day . I try and exercise

27:24

because I find it it resets my

27:26

day but also gives me a bit of a break . But I

27:28

do find reading in the evening . I could be

27:30

quite careful what I read oh

27:32

like I like reading before bed . But

27:34

if I read something , if I read something businessy

27:36

, it obviously triggers all sorts of work thoughts . If

27:38

I read something historical , it tends to trigger

27:41

work thoughts with bizarre reads , right . So

27:43

I found that pretty much the only thing I can read before

27:45

bed is something like

27:48

completely mindless , like something involving

27:50

uh , wizards

27:52

. Or recently I've discovered

27:54

lit rpg which is just

27:57

, yes , it just occupies

27:59

that kind of slightly mathematical , yes

28:01

, cybrane , but doesn't trigger . I don't really go

28:03

.

28:03

Oh , this , this is giving me a work thought which

28:06

actually then allows me to sleep and

28:08

gives my brain half

28:10

an hour , 45 minutes of just nothing

28:14

Exactly Like figuring

28:16

out what that thing is for you to

28:18

like , wow , this really gives me relief

28:20

. And then when you find it , you just double

28:22

down and make it part of your routine . I

28:25

sometimes I go through these periods

28:27

of just feeling tired

28:29

and then I remember that thought of like

28:32

there are things I can do to

28:34

help myself to not feel tired . And I need to stop

28:36

and I need to do those things , you know , and

28:38

not try and push through . Not

28:40

trying , you know , to your point like , well , I

28:43

still need to read this white paper before I go to bed

28:45

. So I'm just gonna go ahead and read this white paper like nope time before bed

28:47

because I'm gonna go to sleep . I go to bed . So I'm just going to go ahead and read this white paper Like nope time before bed

28:49

because I'm going to go to sleep . I need to actually read this

28:51

much more fluffy thing , which

28:53

itself will be more productive because

28:56

I will sleep better and tomorrow I'll have

28:58

a much sharper mind to read that white paper . It'll

29:00

go much better .

29:03

And that's a wrap on today's episode featuring Kirsten

29:05

Lum Reflecting

29:14

on our conversation . We discussed the importance of leveraging AI and machine learning , not just for the tech giants

29:16

, but for smaller businesses seeking to enhance their customer service and operational efficiency

29:18

. We also explored how your unique background can be a powerful asset in navigating

29:21

solutions within your business . Kirsten

29:23

emphasized the significance of curiosity

29:25

and how this is also true for recognizing

29:28

the interplay between one's health , well-being

29:30

and productivity . I'm

29:32

your host , james Johnson , reminding you that every founder's

29:35

journey is rich with lessons waiting to be uncovered

29:37

. Join me next Wednesday

29:39

for the next episode of Peer Effect for

29:41

more revelations and expert advice for founders

29:43

. See you then .