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Fixing the World. Welcome

1:19

to People Fixing the World from the BBC

1:21

World Service. I'm Myra Anubi

1:23

and on the show, I look for solutions to

1:25

some of the world's most challenging problems.

1:28

Today, we're meeting people who are dedicated

1:31

to preventing others from taking their

1:33

own lives.

1:37

According to the World Health Organization,

1:40

every year, more than 700,000 people around the

1:43

world kill themselves. Suicide

1:45

affects people of all ages and in

1:48

every society. It causes untold

1:50

pain to families and communities.

1:53

Today, we're going to be looking at two initiatives

1:55

to stop people taking their own lives.

1:58

Now these initiatives aren't trying to stop people.

1:59

to change the things that can lead to

2:02

suicide, a list that includes

2:04

mental illness, the experience of war

2:06

and trauma. Instead, these are

2:08

interventions that aim to help people right

2:11

at that moment when they feel desperate

2:13

and suicidal. Now before we

2:15

continue, be aware that we will be discussing

2:18

suicide and suicide attempts throughout

2:20

this episode. We begin

2:22

in the Republic of Ireland, where

2:25

more than 400 people took their own lives

2:27

last year. In Limerick, in

2:29

the west of the country, the community is

2:31

coming together to try to stop these

2:33

tragedies before they happen, and

2:36

Katie Flannery went to find out how.

2:39

Let's start with Nicole.

2:42

I meet her on a bench next to the River Shannon.

2:45

She's 26, has brown hair and

2:48

she's wearing a green coat. She's

2:50

telling me about one night six years

2:52

ago on this spot.

2:54

I was sitting on a bench just upstairs

2:57

and I remember it was very

3:00

dark night, very lonely night and

3:02

I was sitting here and I was just like, I

3:04

don't, I don't want

3:06

to be here. I was like,

3:09

it's just a bit for me, you know, I can't,

3:12

I can't do this anymore. I

3:14

had so hopeless about, like

3:17

really hopeless that this is all I had

3:19

to do

3:20

to be it and to get

3:23

away from my head. Nicole

3:26

decided to throw herself into

3:28

the river. She stood up and

3:31

walked towards the edge. She

3:33

was aware that a stranger was watching

3:35

her, but in that moment she

3:38

didn't care. It sounds weird,

3:40

but the river was like calling, you

3:42

know, and so I stood over

3:44

at the railing and I was

3:47

just looking.

3:49

There was sirens going on around and just

3:51

the noise from the city, but my

3:54

mind blanked it out.

3:56

I couldn't hear any other noise barring

3:58

that river, you know.

4:00

It's like drawing you in. But

4:05

as she took her first step on the railing,

4:07

she felt a stranger's hand on her shoulder.

4:10

And he goes, whatever you're thinking, it is

4:13

not worth it. And

4:16

I sit down with him, and I

4:18

didn't know this man at all. And

4:21

he was just an ordinary middle aged man,

4:23

had a bag with him. And

4:27

he turns around and he goes, you know there's other people

4:29

here that has been through this and has great

4:31

outcomes in life over.

4:32

And he's had to be so

4:34

close to you, which I am, which I am. And

4:38

I think I have.

4:41

And

4:43

this complete stranger who didn't know me was able to relate

4:45

to me. And make me feel

4:47

like I wasn't on my own. And

4:50

afterwards I went and I got counselling

4:53

to help me. And I was

4:56

just kind of a gentleman that if

4:58

he didn't stop me, I wouldn't have what I

5:00

have today. But I have

5:02

everything and I owe my life to this man who

5:05

saves

5:05

me. I really do. The

5:13

River Shannon flows through the heart of Limerick.

5:16

It's Ireland's longest river and a symbol

5:18

of birth for the city. But it's also

5:20

a source of great sorrow as many

5:23

people have been lost to its currents. This

5:26

is something I know all too well. I

5:28

used to work in the city as a radio journalist

5:31

and reported on suicides and rescues all

5:33

the time. In 2022

5:35

there were 12 suicides recorded in Limerick,

5:37

which is more per population than any

5:40

other city in Ireland. But

5:42

in response to that, a number of

5:44

suicide prevention groups have sprung up.

5:47

The man who helped Nicole that night had been trained

5:49

as a volunteer for one called Limerick

5:52

Suicide Watch. That man has

5:54

since moved out of the city, but the

5:56

Suicide Watch still patrol the river four

5:58

nights a week, trying to get to the city. intervene before

6:01

a tragedy occurs. They

6:03

told me I could join them on a Saturday night

6:05

patrol.

6:08

They start by giving me some kit waterproof

6:11

trousers, a luminous jacket and

6:13

a life vest. PFT

6:17

is personal floating device. Every

6:19

volunteer

6:19

wears it going out it's for your protection

6:21

okay in case you're pulled

6:23

into the water.

6:24

I was also given something called a

6:26

throw bag which is something I hoped I

6:29

wouldn't have to use. It's a life-saving

6:31

equipment it's whereby god forbid somebody

6:33

does go into the water we can actually

6:36

close the bag at them and we shout at

6:38

them grab the bag grab the bag.

6:40

The equipment is all paid for with money

6:42

raised by local businesses. There

6:45

are 70 people in the group all together. Tonight

6:48

there are eight of us on patrol. Suddenly

6:51

the teams are alerted to their first interaction

6:54

of the night where the river swings close

6:56

to a nightclub. Not far from the

6:58

partying and dancing one of the patrols

7:00

speak to a man sitting on a bench. From

7:03

a distance I watch with another

7:05

volunteer.

7:05

Sure. That

7:07

person would have been actually over there

7:10

earlier on. He would have gone in there and

7:12

started out he's night in there and now he's

7:14

over here after a few drinks

7:16

and you know thoughts are

7:18

going through the person's head now and feeling

7:21

sad feeling down but no one wants to talk

7:23

about it so our members are there and they're sitting

7:25

down with the person listening

7:28

and he's engaged with the person. Well because we actually

7:31

just came off

7:33

the bus so we literally

7:34

are only out about five minutes and already did

7:36

the first year interaction. Is this normal? Yeah

7:38

yeah would be normal

7:41

yes.

7:47

The voice you can hear

7:49

is Sarah. She's actually the mum

7:51

of Nicole who we heard from earlier. She

7:54

started volunteering for the group when she heard

7:56

how they helped her daughter. Like the others she's developed

7:58

a group of people who are in the group.

7:59

developed a sixth sense for spotting people

8:02

who might be feeling desperate. When you're

8:04

in the van like this now, are you looking for people

8:06

to vote? Oh yeah, we're always

8:08

on the bench on his own. Is

8:11

that something you're looking for? Yep, yep. Anything

8:14

like to not go to class and we'll address

8:16

and we'll just say hi and we all

8:18

go together if one person's unsure,

8:21

then we all kind of check it out, you know, no

8:23

one's ever on their own.

8:26

The patrol is split into three groups, Alpha,

8:28

Charlie and Bravo, on bike,

8:30

on foot and by van.

8:33

Suddenly we get word through our walkie

8:35

talkies that the bike team need back

8:37

up. From the van we

8:39

can spot a girl in her 20s sitting

8:41

on a bench looking distressed.

8:43

I watch on with a volunteer called

8:46

Joan.

8:48

It seems okay just to

8:50

be sure, yeah. She's

8:53

crying at the minute. Sometimes

8:57

when you meet a girl, especially a young girl on

8:59

their own, they've either maybe had a

9:01

fall out

9:02

with their partner or their

9:04

friends might have gone off and left them or things,

9:07

you know, and they get really upset and they get a bit scared

9:09

and nervous, especially when it's getting late. So

9:12

what we'd often do is we'll try

9:15

and get someone to come and collect

9:17

them or if necessary we'll give them money

9:19

to get a taxi on, if we can.

9:23

Thankfully this interaction ended positively

9:26

with the girl going home,

9:27

but sometimes it's not so straightforward.

9:30

Yeah, there's a stone

9:32

bridge up here with arches on it and like

9:35

we were walking along and next thing a guy just

9:38

got up on it and he was about just

9:40

edging himself over and myself

9:41

and one of the other women. We

9:43

just literally had him by the belt holding

9:45

him back. Off the rail. Yeah,

9:48

off the stone bridge and then here it

9:50

happened quite often that they'd

9:53

be on the other side of the railings, on

9:55

the river side and people would

9:57

have their hands through the railings holding

9:59

onto them.

9:59

their legs or holding onto their

10:02

arms until more would come along to kind of get

10:04

them, lift them over it. The group are

10:06

well known to the public who seek them out

10:08

if they spot somebody they think might

10:10

be in danger and that's exactly

10:13

what happens on the night I'm out at

10:15

about two o'clock in the morning when Sarah

10:17

receives a heads up from a bus driver.

10:19

The bus driver come around and just

10:22

stopped and just spoke to

10:24

the teens and just said that he had come across someone

10:27

earlier you know we just got a brief description

10:29

of the bus driver so we

10:32

know then if we come across anybody

10:34

like that of that description you

10:36

know it might be cause for concern. The

10:38

group can't say how many people they've helped

10:41

since they started the patrol seven years

10:43

ago they do keep some stats

10:45

but they don't share them. What they

10:47

can tell me is that there isn't a particular

10:50

type of person that might be in crisis.

10:52

We've had doctors, solicitors,

10:56

priests, teachers and

10:58

kids being bullied at school. It can affect

11:01

everyone. It can affect everyone you know it is sad

11:03

for some people you know and a lot of young

11:05

people.

11:07

The patrol members each have their own reasons

11:09

for volunteering.

11:10

For juror it's his own experience

11:13

battling severe depression. I

11:15

had been through a terrible time myself that

11:18

I had tried suicide three times

11:20

myself and

11:23

went through a terrible time and I

11:27

thought then you know I have to give

11:30

you know something back and I said I

11:32

could be good at this you

11:35

know and my satisfaction

11:37

was thank and I don't want anybody to

11:39

go to what I went through you

11:41

know each time you're old you

11:45

know you can

11:45

feel the empathy you can give the empathy

11:48

to the person. Do you think you understand it more because

11:50

you were in their shoes at one point? Yes I do.

11:53

Would that not be maybe triggering

11:55

for you if you're dealing with that?

11:57

Would it not set off your own previous? feeling

12:00

do you have? Yes,

12:00

but part

12:03

of the stipulation when you're joining this group

12:05

now was that you have

12:07

to be two years out

12:10

of that you know even if the suicidal

12:12

thoughts were still there kind of thing that you

12:14

know you wouldn't be allowed you

12:16

know and if it is getting you then you know you

12:18

would say to them and we'd have to take

12:21

time out.

12:26

The hardest part I'm told is

12:28

not the emergencies but hearing the traumatic

12:31

stories that people share.

12:32

After a particularly difficult night someone

12:35

from the organisation's wellbeing team will

12:37

phone the volunteers to check in with them

12:39

and then if they need it they can take

12:42

some time out or see the group's own counsellor.

12:50

Very early in the morning the team wrap

12:52

up the patrol. What really struck

12:54

me was how despite the nature of their

12:56

work they maintained a positive attitude

12:59

throughout the night.

13:00

The suicide patrol is not an emergency

13:03

service

13:04

but it is really felt that they are part

13:06

of the community here that they are known and

13:08

trusted

13:10

and there is one person that will always

13:12

feel indebted to them

13:14

Nicole.

13:15

I had my daughter in 2019 and I wouldn't have her. I'm

13:21

so thankful that I have my

13:23

daughter because she doesn't

13:25

know it but her little smile

13:28

gives me so much joy that I'm so

13:30

glad that

13:32

I don't get to miss that you know I'm

13:34

so glad that I get to wake up

13:36

and see this you know and realise

13:38

what love is and

13:39

what happiness

13:41

is you know.

13:50

That's Nicole from Limerick in Ireland

13:53

and Katie who brought us that report joins

13:55

me now down the line from Dublin. Katie

13:58

it certainly sounds like this project is having a an impact

14:00

there but do you have any sense of whether

14:02

it's helped reduce the number of suicide cases

14:05

there? Well we don't have any solid

14:07

figures on that but what we do know is that

14:09

the group have had hundreds if

14:11

not thousands of interactions since they first

14:14

started up around six or seven years ago. So

14:17

it's probably safe to say that they have stopped

14:20

numerous suicides. Right and I

14:22

mean it seems like it's a big problem there. Are

14:24

there any other efforts saved by the local

14:26

government to try and prevent these attempts from happening?

14:29

The group actually do work in conjunction with the

14:32

local government so the local county council

14:34

they actually put in suggestions to put up

14:37

guardrails most recently to I

14:39

suppose prevent people from being

14:41

able to enter the water easily. So

14:43

the two you know the group and the local

14:45

government do work together to try

14:48

and I suppose war it against

14:50

this issue.

14:51

Another thing that really struck me was

14:53

a bus driver who approached the group. I'm

14:56

wondering whether because of these patrols he

14:58

was more likely to report that there was someone he was worried

15:00

about.

15:01

I think people are inclined to approach

15:04

the group because they are very approachable

15:06

and not only that they're very visible they're

15:08

there every week and they actually

15:10

are wearing luminous

15:12

orange jackets so the

15:14

community know they're there and they

15:17

do find it easy to just go up to them and I suppose

15:19

voice their concerns if they see anyone that they believe

15:21

might be in danger. I

15:24

mean there might also be listeners

15:26

who have come across someone

15:28

who's thinking about taking their life. In

15:30

this case what does Limerick suicide watch for example

15:33

suggest to do? The

15:36

group suggested that it's always good

15:38

to ask people how they're feeling. If you

15:40

see someone on the street and they

15:42

might look maybe a bit down it's always good to ask

15:44

them how they are. If you then gauge

15:47

from that person that they might be a danger

15:49

to themselves or others you then need

15:51

to get the emergency services involved

15:54

and I suppose not make sure that you don't

15:56

implicate yourself in a dangerous situation

15:58

but

15:58

always good to ask them. people how they're feeling,

16:01

how they are because they could change someone's day.

16:03

Well despite the situation it's always great

16:05

to see the community coming together and

16:07

providing a solution so thank you for what we've

16:10

heard today Katie. Thank

16:11

you.

16:13

You're listening to People Fixing the World from

16:15

the BBC World Service. When

16:18

we discuss the topic of suicide it seems

16:20

strange to talk about positives when there's still

16:22

so much more that needs to be done. However

16:25

one thing I am happy to report is that suicide

16:27

rates are actually decreasing

16:29

in some places. Across

16:31

Europe the suicide rate went down

16:34

by 20% between 2011

16:36

and 2019 according to a

16:38

recent study. However in

16:40

the USA the suicide rate went

16:43

up by more than 10% in the same

16:45

period according to data from the

16:47

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

16:50

One key difference between the US and Europe

16:53

is the prevalence of guns. Now

16:55

I didn't know this until we started making this program

16:58

but the majority of fatal shootings

17:00

in the US are in fact suicides

17:04

and firearms are used in more than half

17:06

of suicides in the country. Experts

17:09

believe that removing access to guns

17:11

should be a key part of suicide prevention

17:14

but gun control in the US is a very contentious

17:16

political issue. However

17:19

one woman believes that she has an idea that

17:21

could save thousands of lives and attract

17:23

broad political support. Katrina

17:26

Breese wants to change the law and give people

17:28

the option to put themselves on

17:30

a do not sell list for weapons. She

17:33

started her campaign after her own mother

17:35

Donna killed herself using a gun

17:38

back in 2018. Katrina

17:40

spoke to me down the line from New Orleans and

17:43

I started by asking her what her mother

17:45

was like. My mom

17:47

was a very loving person.

17:50

She had a wonderful partner

17:53

and four cats that she loved. She

17:55

loved music. She was recently

17:57

had just become a grandmother. and

18:00

she was

18:01

very into that role in her life

18:04

and she was very committed to

18:06

her mental health care. For about 25

18:09

years she had been dealing

18:11

with episodic

18:14

suicidality based around

18:16

bipolar disorder. About

18:19

six months before she died her medication

18:22

was changed and she had a

18:24

really bad reaction to it and

18:26

at that point she went

18:29

to her psychiatrist, put

18:32

herself into psychiatric hospitals

18:35

three times before her death. My

18:38

stepdad had quit his job to stay

18:40

home with her so that he could protect

18:42

her from this. She

18:44

really did not want to die. That

18:46

term that Katrina used suicidality

18:49

it refers to the thoughts plans and

18:52

actual attempts someone might have to take

18:54

their own

18:54

life and despite

18:56

all the support she got one

18:59

morning Donna did decide to end

19:01

her life. She went online to

19:03

find out where she could buy a gun.

19:06

Then Google provided her with

19:08

a list of gun stores

19:11

that were nearby and directions

19:13

and she left her house and went

19:15

to a nearby gun store. Our

19:18

family called the police five times

19:20

to try and stop what

19:22

was going to happen and

19:25

despite all of those efforts she

19:27

was able to buy a handgun

19:30

in minutes and a box

19:32

of bullets

19:34

and she took those to the

19:36

park and she shot herself

19:39

there and died.

19:41

I think when anyone loses

19:43

someone you question how could

19:45

things have been different and when it's suicide

19:48

that feeling is

19:50

so much more amplified and

19:53

so of course my brain

19:55

started thinking how

19:58

could we have stopped this. And

20:01

my first thought was that

20:04

she should have been able to opt out

20:06

of purchasing that gun. She

20:08

hated guns. She was

20:11

doing everything to prevent

20:13

her suicide. She was telling

20:16

our family that she wanted to live. And

20:19

obviously the tool we didn't have

20:22

was preventing her from being

20:24

able to walk into a nearby store

20:27

and be sold a gun.

20:28

Katrina thought there ought to be a way for people

20:31

to make it harder for themselves to

20:33

buy a gun. She then found out

20:35

that an Alabama law professor, Fred

20:37

Vars, had just managed to pass a

20:39

law that did this in the state of Washington.

20:42

She joined forces with Fred to push for something

20:45

they're calling Donna's Law across

20:47

the United States.

20:49

Donna's Law is a voluntary

20:51

do not sell list that enables

20:53

people to opt out of their

20:55

ability to purchase a gun from a licensed

20:58

firearm dealer. It

21:00

uses a already established

21:03

system, a background check system

21:05

that we have in our country that's managed

21:07

by the FBI. And it

21:10

enables people to put themselves onto

21:12

the do not sell list instead

21:15

of other ways you could get

21:17

on the do not sell list. By committing a criminal

21:20

act, it is voluntary

21:22

and it is reversible. So

21:25

it is totally up to the individual

21:27

to create that themselves.

21:29

The idea is that even if people choose to reverse

21:32

the decision, it will still take days

21:34

or weeks for that to happen. By

21:36

which point their suicidal thoughts might

21:38

have passed.

21:39

And so it is a great

21:42

tool for someone at a

21:45

point where they're interested in self

21:47

preservation to create

21:49

an action that protects them when

21:52

they're on their worst days.

21:54

Versions of Donna's Law now exist

21:56

in three states, Washington, Virginia

21:59

and Utah. Also on

22:01

the call with Katrina was Brian Barks.

22:04

Like Donna, Brian is bipolar

22:06

and despite being a vocal advocate for gun

22:08

control, Brian once became so

22:11

desperate she found herself searching online

22:13

for a place to buy a weapon. For

22:16

her own safety, she wants the law to be

22:18

passed in her state of Maryland.

22:20

I would be thrilled to sign up

22:22

for the law because I know that

22:25

it would give me a sense of security. Just

22:28

for instance, when I am feeling

22:31

very suicidal, my husband and

22:33

I work together to walk up

22:35

any sort of lethal methods

22:37

of suicide including medications and

22:39

sharps, that kind of thing. So we

22:42

already take measures

22:44

to keep me safe when I'm not well.

22:47

And this would be a major way that

22:49

I could keep myself safe from firearms,

22:52

which are the most lethal suicide attempt

22:54

method.

22:55

Could you tell us or describe the day that you

22:58

yourself had an experience just looking

23:00

to find out

23:01

about purchasing a gun? Yeah,

23:04

I had

23:04

had suicidality. I dealt with

23:07

suicidality from the time

23:09

I was about 17. And

23:13

I was in a mixed episode at the time,

23:15

which meant that I was experiencing symptoms

23:18

of depression and mania at the same time. It's

23:20

a very dangerous state to be in because

23:23

people can feel suicidal and they actually

23:25

have the energy that they

23:28

need in order to

23:29

act on those suicidal urges.

23:30

So I was in a mixed episode

23:34

and I was totally sleep deprived,

23:36

very agitated, and

23:38

I found myself Googling,

23:41

where can I buy a gun?

23:44

The map came up, there were many options,

23:47

some very close to my health. And

23:50

I often think about that moment when I'm

23:53

thinking about this work because I know

23:55

that so many people, including

23:57

Donna, Googled the

23:59

exact same thing. thing and didn't have

24:02

the outcome that I did, which was that I was

24:05

hospitalized after I talked to my psychiatrist

24:07

about what had happened.

24:09

And just coming back to you, Katrina, I mean,

24:11

there are people who say if someone

24:14

is going to kill themselves, they're just going to do

24:16

it. If it's not using a gun, they'll find

24:19

another way. What do you have to say about that?

24:21

It's not true.

24:23

People who think about suicide

24:26

typically think of a single method.

24:29

And when there is intervention of

24:31

that method, they do not go

24:34

on to find another method. People

24:37

who try and

24:37

attempt suicide and

24:40

are intervened with have a 90% chance

24:43

of never dying by suicide in

24:45

their future. For a lot of

24:47

people, suicidality is

24:50

a very short period of time.

24:52

It can be minutes. It

24:55

can be a day. But it typically

24:57

does not last very long.

24:59

I'd also like to say a little story.

25:01

I had a mother who

25:03

was suicidal that called me one

25:05

day that I didn't know that had

25:07

heard my story. And she

25:10

was just so desperate.

25:13

And I stayed

25:14

on the phone with her. And

25:16

eventually she just got hungry.

25:19

And

25:22

she's still alive.

25:24

Katrina Brice and Brian Barks

25:27

If you'd like to find out more about Donna's

25:30

Law, then you can go to donnaslaw.com.

25:34

We've come to the end of the program today.

25:36

But if you've been listening and you feel like

25:38

you might be in crisis yourself, or

25:41

know someone who needs support, please know that there's

25:44

help out there. If you're listening in

25:46

Ireland, go ahead and call the Samaritans for

25:48

free on 116

25:51

123. And

25:52

if you're listening in the US, you can call

25:54

the Suicide and Crisis Line by dialing 988.

25:58

You can also search for Before. worldwide

26:01

to find a local crisis service where

26:03

you live. Do let me know what

26:05

you think about what you've heard today. The

26:08

email is peoplefixingtheworld at

26:10

bbc.co.uk

26:12

and as always

26:14

join me next week for more solutions. Until

26:17

then, thanks for listening.

26:25

Do you ever feel a bit overwhelmed

26:27

when you check the news on your phone first

26:29

thing in the morning? I'm Hannah, I'm the presenter of

26:32

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26:36

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