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big money in the lungs.

1:06

My guest today is Tom Dart, the

1:08

sheriff of Cook County. By local

1:10

sheriff probably seems like an odd choice if

1:12

someone bring on the

1:13

show, but that's only because you

1:15

don't know Tom Dard. We are

1:17

the only jail prison in the count

1:20

treat that does not have any

1:22

variation of solitary confinement.

1:25

Welcome to people I mostly

1:28

admire with Steve Lev it.

1:32

He's made time magazines and to a list

1:34

of the one hundred people who shape our world, and

1:36

he's one of the most creative public servants that

1:38

have ever met. I also have

1:40

an exterior motive for bringing Sheriff's Guard on

1:42

the show. We've been working together on a pilot

1:44

program that I hope will one day transform

1:47

criminal justice. It's a project that could

1:49

have a bigger social impact than anything

1:51

else I've done in my life. So

1:59

when I hear the word sheriff, my

2:02

mind immediately goes to the wild west,

2:04

six shooters, cowboys, train

2:06

robberies, What are your actual

2:08

responsibilities as a modern day

2:10

sheriff? You

2:11

know, it is actually fascinating because I've

2:14

had a different points in my career reason

2:17

to research the history behind

2:19

Sheriff, to see where it came

2:21

from. And it really does go all the

2:23

way back to the days of old

2:25

in England with the infamous Sheriff of

2:27

Nottingham and so on. And so a lot of the

2:29

different things that are attached to Sheriff

2:31

have been this constant evolution

2:35

from the very

2:37

very ancient times today, to

2:39

be frank with you, some vestiges that

2:41

are very similar to hundreds

2:44

and hundreds of years ago. So I still

2:46

have the ability here in Cook County

2:48

to form posses.

2:51

How often do you do that? I

2:52

have not had reason to do it as of recent.

2:55

But by statute, the only

2:58

person who can arrest me for

3:00

a criminal event is the

3:02

corner, which very conveniently

3:04

in our county. We don't have one,

3:07

so look out. But as it's

3:09

developed over the years, the sheriff

3:11

is in charge of whatever

3:14

jail may be in that county. They

3:16

are also in charge of operating

3:19

the security around courthouses and

3:21

the like. They're in charge of all

3:23

the evictions that go on within the county.

3:26

They often are the ones that do all of the

3:28

service of process and lawsuits and

3:30

so on. And then they also have

3:32

a police element as well

3:34

So those are the major parts

3:37

of the office, but it has evolved

3:39

dramatically jurisdictions jurisdictions.

3:42

And so in some parts of the country. There is

3:44

literally no similarity to us.

3:46

New York, for example, their sheriff does not

3:48

run their jail. It's very limited roles

3:51

in most anything. And then you have other ones

3:53

where particularly out west, Steve, the sheriff's

3:55

the biggest law enforcement entity

3:58

and it has allowed, frankly,

4:00

some of the sheriffs in some of

4:02

the parts of the country to gravitate

4:04

towards somewhat perplexing philosophy

4:07

saying that they are the chief law enforcement

4:10

agency in the entire state

4:13

and that they are not liable for

4:15

any of the laws of the

4:16

state. You'd hope it was one or two

4:18

people in a very small little jurisdiction, but

4:20

they call themselves constitutional sheriffs

4:22

and there's many more of those than you would

4:24

imagine. So at the most basic level,

4:27

your job is to enforce the law,

4:29

but I know you and I know your

4:31

history and you sometimes refuse

4:34

to enforce laws you don't think

4:36

are right. think one example goes

4:38

back to the tenant evictions that

4:41

you thought were unfair in the financial

4:43

crisis. Could you tell us about that? Yeah.

4:46

You know what hit the fan back in two

4:48

thousand and eight? The Sheriff's Office being

4:50

the primary actor in evicting

4:53

people, primary exclusive actor,

4:55

frankly. I had for

4:57

years been going out on evictions myself,

4:59

and that's not my traditional background either,

5:01

Steve. I'm a history major went to

5:03

law school, became a prosecutor for

5:05

five years, and then was in the legislature. So I've never

5:08

been a police officer. That was not my background.

5:10

Wait. So you said you go on evictions?

5:12

Yeah. So you'd knock on people's door and

5:14

tell them they had to back up their stuff. Yes.

5:17

Because I wanted to find out what the reality

5:19

was. I was new as sheriff

5:22

and as I'm sure you can imagine,

5:24

in an agency as large as I have six thousand

5:26

employees, you get very good

5:28

people, but you can't get around the fact

5:30

that people sometimes tell you what they think you

5:32

want to hear. And so I made a

5:34

point early on to go physically

5:37

out to every aspect of the

5:39

office to see where reality met

5:41

with what I had been told. And I

5:43

found in the world of evictions, reality

5:46

in no way met what

5:48

I had been told and what I had been led to

5:50

believe was the norms for evictions.

5:53

What were you told and what was reality? I've

5:55

been told it was just a very pro form a

5:57

process. We get an eviction order. We

5:59

go to a house. We asked people to

6:01

move. They may have already left. We

6:04

clear out the house. We move on to the next

6:06

one. And it was a very antiseptic process.

6:09

When I went out there, it couldn't have been any further from

6:11

the truth, Steve. It literally, in

6:13

my mind, was one of the most barbaric

6:15

processes I had ever seen that

6:17

he truly had not in any way progressed

6:20

in hundreds of years. To tell

6:22

me what an example, you knock on the door?

6:24

Yeah. You knock on the door, you break it down with

6:26

a bull. Frequently the landlord would be there

6:28

with keys, so we wouldn't have to knock it down. But

6:30

sometimes tenants would put their own locks on,

6:33

we would have to knock it down. But that

6:35

was rare. But what I found

6:37

was when we'd go to these houses that

6:39

the individuals that we were interacting

6:41

with were people that really ran the gamut

6:43

from people who knew the court system

6:45

very well had been evicted other times,

6:48

knew how to in some ways manipulate

6:50

the system to extend their stay without

6:53

pain. And there were other people who literally didn't

6:55

even know they were about to be evicted. When

6:57

I first started asking questions about the

6:59

process, I had people in my office very

7:01

proud to tell me that we've really upped

7:04

our game because we used to

7:06

go knock on the door, but then we'd

7:08

have a moving company that would be in charge

7:10

of taking all the property out. And that we

7:12

had really gotten on the cutting edge because instead

7:14

of going out for a low bid, we

7:16

were able to actually put some requirements

7:19

in for who they were bringing in his movers because

7:21

what they were finding out was that the movers

7:23

were stealing everything. Mhmm. And so

7:26

one of our big innovations I was told

7:28

was that we required them all to wear jumpsuits

7:30

with no pockets on them. Yeah,

7:33

I was overwhelmed as well. And when

7:36

I went out then and saw

7:39

first hand how I was playing out, We'd go

7:41

to the door frequently. It was either a senior

7:43

citizen or was a single mom

7:45

with numerous kids. We would ask

7:47

them to leave. They would walk out. To

7:49

the street. The moving

7:52

people would come in, put all

7:54

their property out on the street. And

7:56

then we trying to be efficient, we'd go

7:58

off to our next eviction. When I would inquire

8:01

to my staff, I said, what happens normally? And

8:03

they'd say, oh, well, usually the tenant

8:05

then takes off and looks for

8:07

a friend or a family member to help them

8:09

move their things. And I say, oh, really? And I

8:11

say, oh, yeah. And by the way, when that occurs, usually

8:13

most of their stuff gets stolen. And I

8:15

was like, and we're okay

8:17

with that. And there's like, well, we have other evictions,

8:20

do I go, I get that. I get that. I understand that. go,

8:22

this couldn't be any further from

8:25

what a thoughtful entity would ever

8:27

do. And so I come to

8:29

find out that we were usually made aware of evictions

8:32

three to four weeks ahead of time

8:34

sometimes even longer. And I said, well, why

8:36

don't we use that period of time? We'll send

8:38

a social worker off to the house. We'll knock on the

8:40

door. We'll talk to the people there. If

8:42

they have mental health issues, if they're senior

8:44

citizens who have a range of

8:46

issues, often dementia, if the single

8:49

mom with children, Why don't we talk with them?

8:51

Explain to them the process? Explain to them

8:53

their legal options, but also work with them

8:55

saying, listen, if driven fact, they do have to move

8:57

can we help you move? Can we get you

8:59

a list of places you can go to? Can we drive

9:01

you to places? Can we help you find places to

9:03

store your property? And I had

9:05

implemented that process, and it was just amazing

9:07

because was making it up as I went along, Steve.

9:09

I assumed that I was probably just copying

9:11

another jurisdiction but I was doing this

9:14

so quickly and on the fly, didn't have a chance

9:16

to look. And then as I was putting in place, I asked

9:18

my staff to go, let's scan all the jurisdictions and

9:20

see if we can cherry pick some of the things they're doing.

9:23

And in all of the jurisdictions in the

9:25

country, we were the only ones

9:27

other than some variation in San Francisco.

9:29

We were only other ones in the entire country that

9:31

was doing it this way. The rest were doing the exact same

9:33

thing, which was put them in the

9:34

street, whatever happens, happens, it's not our

9:37

issue. They should have paid their rent, let's

9:39

keep moving on. It was horrible. Now,

9:41

this thing comes to a head in

9:43

the financial crisis because now

9:46

not only do you have the issue where people aren't

9:48

paying their rent, but now you've got a bunch of landlords

9:52

who are defaulting on the mortgages. And then

9:54

what happens to the tenants when that happens? So

9:57

I kept going out with

9:59

some frequency. I'd say once every

10:01

other week, because I have this other thing called

10:03

the jail, I have drawn. And

10:06

so I had just a boatload of problems

10:08

that I was juggling. So I'd go out maybe

10:10

every two weeks just to see how things were

10:12

going. And during that time, I would always

10:14

make a point of talking to the residents. I

10:17

would talk to the landlords. I would talk to everybody

10:19

who would listen to me and ask them

10:21

and start probing for questions on how

10:23

did this happen? What are things that can make

10:25

it better? And then I would start tweaking

10:28

what I was doing. I was like, okay, hey, if we get involved

10:30

with the department aging, we can

10:32

work with this group and that group. Because as I'd

10:34

mentioned before, seniors was particularly perplexing

10:36

because Steve, I'd go in the house and just be filled

10:39

from floor to ceiling with all sorts

10:41

of papers and you name it. But in addition

10:43

to which all sorts of unopened mail

10:45

that had checks in it weren't cashed in the poor individual

10:48

living by themselves clearly cases

10:50

dementia here as well. In one

10:52

case in particular, this was before I put

10:54

all the reforms in place, the woman was I

10:56

don't forget, we walked her out to the street,

10:58

and she kept walking in the traffic. And I had to go

11:00

out and grab her, bring her back onto the sidewalk.

11:03

In traditionally, we would have left and I said, we're

11:05

not going anywhere. Okay? We're gonna sit

11:07

here until we get a hold of someone from her family

11:09

and we're not gonna walk away. And it led me

11:11

to find out that there was nothing in place,

11:13

and so I had to put all these sort of things

11:15

together to help the seniors. Every

11:17

conceivable thing you can imagine that

11:20

you would read about that goes on in

11:22

the population that is underserved, that

11:24

doesn't have health insurance, that is struggling

11:26

day to day, I was seeing it. And

11:28

I can't tell you how many times I go into a house,

11:31

and there's someone literally in there in

11:33

a hospital bed, stage four cancer,

11:35

it's basically hospice care, and our order

11:38

says to put them on the street. I just would

11:40

pick the phone up and say, let me just talk to the landlord.

11:42

And the landlords across the board, one was

11:44

his understanding is the next they weren't aware

11:46

of half of this. And so it was a

11:48

question of, okay, let's get everyone in on the

11:50

loop. And so that was somewhat standard. The

11:52

reforms have been put in place, and then two thousand

11:55

and eight hits And as I'm going out,

11:57

I'm seeing something very different that I hadn't

11:59

seen before. I was literally knocking

12:01

on the door, the people would welcome

12:04

us in, with this very quizzical

12:06

look on their face of high share of

12:08

nice to see you. Why you hear? Is there

12:10

something we could help you with? And it said, well,

12:12

you're aware of an eviction. I have

12:14

no idea what you're talking about. And people

12:16

would then bring out their checkbooks and they'd show

12:19

me They've been making checks out for

12:21

months and months. The person in the house

12:23

paying rent to the guy that owns the house

12:25

who's up to date on it But long

12:27

ago, this guy had stopped paying the bank

12:29

because the interest rates he'd used were so

12:31

high. And he'd just given up on it.

12:33

The bank was saying, her, throw these people out or

12:35

close on the house. was blown away because this was happening

12:38

all the time. I told

12:38

myself, I go, guys, ladies, we can't

12:41

we can't go along with this thing. These

12:43

are renters who number

12:46

one, they're up to date. They're paying their rent every

12:48

single month. Yes. And number two,

12:50

do not even informed that

12:52

the house is in foreclosure because their

12:54

names are probably not written anywhere. Right? Yes. They're

12:56

renting from some guy who

12:59

has never told anyone else,

13:00

wow, yes, literally. You just nailed it,

13:03

Steve. And this was happening over and

13:05

over again. And so it was with that.

13:07

I tried reaching out to the courts, but

13:09

the law

13:10

says, these people have no

13:12

rights. Right? Correct. They are

13:13

gonna be out on the street with all their stuff stolen

13:15

just like everybody else. Correct. And, honestly,

13:18

God, I still visualize these families, family

13:20

after family. Just average middle

13:22

class hardworking people playing by the rules,

13:24

and yet because of this insanity that's

13:26

going on in the real estate market, they

13:28

were going to be dumped where are they

13:30

gonna go? Mhmm. Think about that

13:32

from one human to another. Literally a knock

13:34

on the door and within half

13:36

hour, you are now looking for a place to

13:38

live. Yeah. How

13:40

thoughtless can we be? And so that

13:42

was when I said, listen, we're not gonna

13:44

do this. I'd reached out to, as I said, the courts and some

13:46

other entities to see if anybody can help mitigate

13:48

this with me. And there was no

13:51

ability to do that. People were scrambling.

13:53

No one knew what to do. And so it was

13:55

at that point I said, listen, we're not gonna be

13:57

engaged in this. This is wrong. This

13:59

is clearly violating people's due process,

14:02

all the rest. I

14:02

said, we're just not gonna evict people

14:04

anymore, and I'm gonna stop. The banks must

14:07

have flipped. Right? Oh my god. Yes.

14:09

Because the banks want these people out.

14:11

They wanna take possession.

14:12

That was one of the first times I really

14:15

got into looking into the

14:17

statute for sheriff. My wife

14:19

and I have five children. They were quite young at the

14:21

time, and there was all these

14:23

motions for a contempt of court seeking

14:25

to have me locked up because I wasn't enforcing

14:28

laws. That's got us to researching

14:30

the statute, and that's where we found out that

14:32

I can't be arrested by anybody. So I was

14:34

like, I I got that in my back pocket. But

14:36

it was made clear to us that the different

14:38

entities were not gonna standby and let

14:40

me do

14:41

this. It got ratcheted up rather

14:43

quickly, and people were very upset

14:45

to put it lightly. And you came out

14:47

looking great. Right? You were named one

14:49

of Time magazine's hundred people who

14:51

shape our

14:52

world. Yeah, that was strange.

14:54

So we got a lot of attention which was frankly

14:57

wasn't really what I was trying to do, but in the

14:59

end, I was ecstatic that it

15:01

put a spotlight on this issue

15:03

So when COVID

15:04

hit, did the eviction's issue arise

15:07

again? And did you have to violate the

15:09

law one more time? It

15:11

was interesting because when COVID

15:13

hit, the fact that we had been doing all of

15:15

these things for so long had

15:17

prepared us so that we already had

15:20

this system in place that was this

15:22

more thoughtful approach to evictions.

15:25

So it really didn't require us to

15:27

do anything The courts

15:29

were wildly engaged and helpful.

15:31

Our county board was as well. There was

15:33

a call for moratorium throughout the country,

15:36

and so they immediately put together moratoriums,

15:39

but tied it with financial hooks

15:41

that the federal government, state, and county

15:43

government all help too to help

15:46

landlords make up for any

15:48

payments. And because we have this

15:50

elaborate program on the front end,

15:52

we are really way out in front

15:54

of everyone else.

16:01

Now, I'm not sure you needed to be emboldened.

16:04

But you'd only been sheriff for a couple years

16:07

when this happened and I

16:09

got to think that positive feedback couldn't

16:11

have hurt your taste for doing risky

16:13

thing. So tell me about some of the things you've

16:15

done as Sheriff that nobody in the right

16:17

mind would do. Taking

16:20

the job in the first place, no one in the right mind

16:22

would do. You are correct, though,

16:24

Steve, because realizing that I

16:26

could affect change being

16:28

completely outside the box, It

16:31

just further emboldened me. It was my calling card

16:33

forever to be honest with you, whether it's a prosecutor

16:35

as a legislator. I drove my own

16:37

party completely out of their mind when I was

16:39

in legislature. They couldn't wait

16:41

for me to leave because I was always

16:43

coming up with the latest, greatest solution

16:46

to something. This did help though

16:48

because it let me know that I try some of these

16:50

other things and that if I could articulate it

16:52

properly and show the logic that was

16:54

underlying it, that the public would

16:56

be very open to it. And so the

16:58

jail was always the big issue

17:01

when you talked about the sheriff's office. And

17:03

so that was something that was

17:05

ripe to have this different type of mindset

17:08

layered over it.

17:10

You had pets in the jail for a while.

17:12

Right? How did that go? Still, I

17:14

bet about ninety five percent on that.

17:17

Which in a jail world, not too shabby.

17:19

So we have some wildly cool

17:22

programs involving dogs. I am

17:24

a dog lover myself, but beyond that,

17:26

I know the therapeutic effect

17:28

animals have on individuals and

17:30

both for the staff and for the detainees, I thought

17:32

it would be a very positive thing. But

17:34

then I want to take it in a different direction

17:36

too where I want it to use it as a rehabilitative

17:39

program for the pets as well. And

17:41

I'd been wanting to do it for years and I kept

17:43

being told by my staff that it couldn't be

17:45

done and I was down speaking at a

17:47

conference in

17:49

Tennessee. And the sheriff sitting next to

17:51

me who invited me down to speak at this mental

17:53

health conference. We're just small talking.

17:55

He's talking about his jail program that

17:57

Emile Harris is involved with And I said, well,

17:59

I love her. She down there performing. He said,

18:01

no. No. She has a dog program. And I

18:04

said, stop the presses. I've been told to my staff

18:06

that we can't do this in a jail. And

18:08

he

18:08

said, no. No. We've been doing it. He gave me

18:10

the outlines of it. And I said, you know, sheriff,

18:12

I have about a five or six hour

18:13

drive back to Chicago. August, I

18:15

am gonna have my program up and running by

18:18

the time I get back to

18:18

Chicagos we

18:19

did. We reached out to the animal control

18:22

people here, and we take

18:24

dogs that were otherwise gonna be euthanized, often

18:26

it's spitballs. And we train

18:29

our detainees, and most of them

18:31

are in our maximum unit. How

18:33

to work with dogs to get the

18:35

aggression to dissipate. And

18:37

then we bring the dog over to the jail.

18:39

The dog literally lives in the cell with the

18:41

detainee every day is a very structured

18:44

day of programming and so on. And then we

18:46

put the dogs up for adoption. And

18:48

we've been adopting ton of dogs

18:50

that otherwise would have been euthanized. In meantime,

18:53

these individuals in our custody are

18:56

not only getting the therapy side of it from

18:58

the dogs being with them, but they're also

19:00

getting this wild sense of accomplishment. We

19:03

have more programs in any jail or

19:05

prison in the country. The common thread

19:07

is getting inside people's head, not just teaching

19:09

them how to hammer in that nail

19:11

and how to weld that part,

19:14

but to show them how they can accomplish things,

19:16

how they have value and how they can

19:18

contribute. And so the dog program

19:20

has been wildly successful. I

19:23

tried a chicken thing, Steve, And

19:25

while that did not work out, what

19:28

went wrong with the chicken? Oh, where do

19:30

you start? The person that put it together for

19:32

me really clear with them. Same. Listen. Okay.

19:34

This is cool. We'll have free range chickens.

19:36

We can sell the eggs at Whole

19:38

Foods or something like that. This is great. I

19:41

said, but the bottom line is the program's got to

19:43

make money. It's gotta be self sustained. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

19:45

Yeah. Yeah. So we had I think it was six chickens

19:47

or nine Chicagos. I come to find out

19:49

after this thing implodes on me that the

19:51

reality is that everyone understands who is

19:53

in a moron, which obviously would be me,

19:55

that you need to have. I think it's three or six

19:57

hundred chickens to breakeven in an

19:59

operation like this, and we had like six.

20:02

So we got rid of chickens.

20:07

We'll be right back with more of my conversation with

20:09

Cook County Sheriff Tom Darden.

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22:21

So

22:25

let's talk more about Cook County Journal. It's

22:27

a massive complex. How many inmates

22:30

were there at the

22:31

peak? Must have been over ten thousand. Right?

22:33

Oh, god. But on my worst day when

22:35

I first started, I had about eleven thousand.

22:37

And then for the last five or six years,

22:40

we've been pretty much locked

22:42

in at fifty five hundred. As

22:44

a result, the bond reform that our county

22:46

did about five or six years ago. So

22:48

there was a time when I first started, Steve.

22:50

We were the largest jail

22:53

in the country now we're probably

22:55

still in the top ten, but we're not the largest

22:58

anymore. It allows me to do a lot

23:00

more programming and things like that because

23:02

I don't have issues with overcrowding.

23:05

Most people I'm sure don't know the difference

23:08

between a prison and a jail. A

23:10

gel holds people before their trial

23:12

takes place or after

23:14

if they're convicted with a sentence

23:16

that's less than a year. But something like ninety

23:18

five percent of the inmates at Cook County jail

23:21

are pre trial. Right? Once

23:23

COVID

23:23

hit, there was such a massive move

23:26

to try to keep people out. There

23:28

was across the board agreement that we aren't gonna

23:30

even sentence people anymore to the jail. I

23:32

think now it's virtually hundred percent of

23:34

the people are waiting for their trial, there

23:36

is a tremendous difference between

23:39

jails and prisons. It's not just

23:41

some obtuse difference. It is

23:43

at the heart of it. Because if you think about

23:46

a person who has been sentenced to a determinant

23:48

period of time, which is all. And so you get twenty years,

23:50

whatever it is, you know to the

23:52

minute when that person's gonna get released. So if

23:54

you wanna work with them on

23:56

programs, if you wanna work with them on transitions

23:59

to the community, all the above,

24:01

you have the playbook, and you know when they're leaving.

24:04

Jails, everyone's waiting for a trial.

24:06

You don't know if the trial is coming today or tomorrow.

24:08

You don't know if they're gonna sleep guilty today

24:10

or tomorrow. You don't know if they're all of a sudden

24:12

can be able to make bond today or tomorrow.

24:14

So when you're trying to put programs

24:17

together, try to help people it's

24:19

wildly more difficult than if you're in

24:21

prison because you just don't know who's

24:23

with you and for how long. For that reason,

24:25

most people who operated jails ran

24:27

away from programming. They were of the opinion

24:30

that, you know, nobody'll do it right because you don't know

24:32

how long people are gonna be here. Well, I started

24:34

pouring through the data and eighty five

24:36

percent of the people who entered the jail

24:38

went right back to their community, never

24:40

going down to prison because either their case

24:43

was dismissed that took so long to

24:45

dispose of the case that they served all their time

24:47

with me or they got probation. Because

24:50

our judges are so notoriously slow

24:52

here, in my custody now, I have over a

24:54

hundred and some people have been waiting over

24:56

eight years for their trial. Mhmm. So the reality

24:59

of Cook County wasn't what

25:01

the theoretical notion was

25:03

that this is just this quick in and out. And

25:05

so that became an imperative thing

25:07

for me then. If I am this funnel where

25:09

eighty five percent of the people come to jail, I'm

25:11

sending back to communities that are already

25:14

very distressed, I need

25:16

to dig into each and every one of these people

25:18

coming into jail, find out the underlying

25:20

issues that got them there, issues

25:22

that can be addressed with me and then

25:24

start picking them off. So whether it's mental health

25:26

issues, educational issues, job

25:29

related issues, domestic related

25:31

issues, the whole menu

25:32

there, I need to start picking them all off

25:34

and start addressing those. And so

25:36

that led me to be this really,

25:38

singly focused, program directed

25:41

jail. I spent a fair amount

25:43

of time in Cook County Jail and various

25:45

projects. And what is most

25:47

surprising to me is how

25:50

safe it feels. There's a strong

25:52

sense of order. It feels calm.

25:54

But I'm curious, is my oppression of

25:57

the jail being a complex, is that backed up by

25:59

statistics, or is that just an illusion

26:01

that I have? No, it is statistically

26:03

driven. I've often told people, other

26:06

than executing somebody. There

26:08

is nothing more impactful you can do

26:10

to an individual in any society than incarcerate

26:13

them. And yet if you look across

26:15

the country, jails and

26:17

prisons have literally no data. They have

26:19

none. They know the name of the person in your custody.

26:21

They know what they're charged with. That's about

26:24

it. I was obsessed about data

26:26

from day one. And so now

26:28

we have this robust system

26:30

that is the envy of literally everybody

26:32

in the country because we have data that you can't

26:35

imagine. With that, then I'm able

26:37

to monitor all these different aspects of it.

26:39

And so to your point about the sort

26:41

of orderly approach here, I

26:43

go through the data constantly on

26:45

fights, assaults on staff, and

26:48

all of those numbers, all those data points,

26:50

all show the same thing, which steadily

26:52

have been decreasing over the years. And the reason they've

26:54

been decreasing is that We identify what

26:56

the underlying issues are that are driving them.

26:58

And then we have a plan and a program that

27:00

we put in effect. We are the only

27:03

jail prison in the country. That

27:05

does not have any variation of

27:07

solitary confinement. That's like a

27:09

huge deal that my own staff was fighting me

27:11

on it originally because they said, that's one of the greatest

27:13

tools that you have available to you in a jail or

27:15

prison and you're taking it away. When

27:18

I did that, it was with the notion

27:20

of bringing in a more humane, thoughtful

27:22

approach to how we deal with

27:24

individuals. But with this underlying notion,

27:27

the things that I had read extensively

27:29

about showed that you would

27:31

actually find that the results across

27:33

the board would be better. And the data that

27:35

we have all shows that, assaults on staff,

27:38

it plummeted. What's the

27:39

number? What would be the number of

27:41

assaults on staff last month? I

27:43

wanna say it was in the range of

27:47

fifteen to twenty. We

27:49

have on a monthly

27:51

basis maybe one or two

27:54

where they're very violent, where someone

27:56

grabs a correctional officer by the throat

27:58

or hits them from behind. Those

28:00

are smaller. The bigger ones, and we

28:02

will list them as a saw. It's not for any particular

28:04

nasty reason, but it's like pushing the

28:06

chest and pushing the officer back, things

28:09

like that. So it runs a little bit of

28:11

a gamut, but all of our data

28:13

that we've accumulated over the years have shown

28:15

all of that dropping by substantial

28:17

numbers. Just today I was having my jail

28:19

meeting and we break it down

28:21

division by division, tier

28:23

by tier so that It isn't

28:25

just something where we look at and say, oh, violence

28:27

is up across the jail or violence is down

28:30

across the jail. No. Where is it? Is it relegated

28:32

to one living unit? If it is, Do we have a gang

28:34

related problem on that living unit? Is there something

28:36

there that we need either split people up again?

28:39

Or is it something where we need to bring intervention

28:41

into there? So your feeling is not

28:43

misguided, is become a

28:46

much less violent place than it ever

28:48

was. We'd stack our place up against anybody.

28:50

But You can't find the numbers, Steve. So if you want

28:52

to compare, like, my assault on staff

28:55

and violence numbers against any other jurisdiction,

28:57

good luck. They don't keep it. So

29:00

talking about this reminds me of a

29:02

story from one of my early job visits.

29:04

It must have been around the year. Two

29:06

thousand or two thousand one. So before you

29:08

were sheriff -- Yeah. -- and I was teaching

29:11

in undergraduate course on economics of

29:13

crime. And I wanted to expose

29:15

my students to real life, not just academic

29:17

paper, so every year I'd bring eight or

29:19

ten students and we'd visit the jail. The

29:22

first few visits were highly circumscribed,

29:24

limited tours, no contact

29:26

whatsoever with inmates. But as the

29:28

team at the jail got to know me better, they

29:31

became more relaxed. And so on our

29:33

third visit, the deputy leading the tour,

29:35

she says to us, would you like to meet

29:37

some of the inmates? And of course, I

29:39

said, sure. And she unlocks

29:41

this huge metal door that leads into

29:44

a pod with inmates. So it's one

29:46

prison guard. It's me. And

29:48

seven or eight incredibly nerdy

29:51

Chicagos mostly female

29:53

students. And you know me, I'm a scrawny

29:55

weak guy, but I was probably the broadest one in the

29:57

group. Not

29:59

reassured, Steve. We walk into

30:01

the pod and the roughly

30:03

twenty inmates immediately drop whatever

30:06

they're doing. This is unusual for them.

30:08

I do have a bunch of kids walking in

30:10

the pot. They drop everything they're doing. And

30:12

they start walking towards us. My students are

30:14

literally cowering behind the one

30:16

prison guard who's still standing by the

30:18

door but I feel like I had to lead by

30:20

example, so I walk right out towards the

30:22

twenty inmates. And now it's me

30:24

with the semicircle of extremely

30:27

intimidating inmates around me, all staring

30:29

at me, nobody's saying anything. And

30:31

I'm not prepared. It all happens so quickly and

30:33

unexpectedly. And to break the tension,

30:36

I just blurted out the first thing that

30:38

came in my mind and to the guy close,

30:40

you know, look him in the eye and I say, what

30:42

are you in for? And he says

30:45

first degree murder. And

30:48

that is a conversation stopper. If

30:50

I've ever heard one, perhaps

30:52

it's something So I ask,

30:55

when's your trial? And he

30:57

says, well, hopefully not for another two or

30:59

three years. And I'm confused. I

31:01

ask, why, hopefully, And he

31:03

explained he likes it in the jail.

31:05

It turns out this particular pod was

31:08

a Christian pod, and these twenty inmates have

31:10

been self selected to come into it. And

31:12

they got along great. And he knew

31:14

he'd be found guilty, and he'd be sent

31:16

downstate to a prison that would be much

31:18

worse. So he was using every

31:21

legal tactic he could find to delay

31:23

his trial. And so I ended

31:25

up talking to him for a long time

31:27

and It was like talking to anyone you meet

31:30

on the street, he had hopes, and dreams, and a family,

31:32

he just happened to be a murderer. And after

31:35

that point, after that I had been pretty hardcore

31:37

lock them up advocate. Yeah. And

31:39

I think that conversation marked the beginning

31:41

of my path to a more nuanced view

31:43

of things.

31:44

We give tours anybody wants to come into

31:46

the jail because I often tell him, I go, that's the only

31:49

way that you can get your arms

31:51

around the reality. Not what's on TV, not

31:53

what's in a movie. And then you can begin to

31:55

understand that different people

31:57

get there for different reasons. And

32:00

is there evil in this world? Yes, there

32:02

is. Are there evil people in the jail? Yes,

32:04

there are. Is that the smaller group of

32:06

people? Yeah, it is. The reality of it is

32:08

when you start walking through with some of these people

32:10

and why they're there? You find out, okay,

32:13

well, that is understandable. I

32:15

would never agree that you should shoot and kill somebody,

32:17

but now I know how you got into that situation.

32:20

Prior to COVID, I used to wander around the jail

32:22

with a great deal of frequency. I would talk

32:24

with my staff, but I would also sit and talk with

32:26

the detainees all the time. And I would just pepper

32:28

them with questions. And it really ran

32:30

the gamut as to what means your family

32:32

like. How long you've been in the place?

32:34

How's the food? What led you here?

32:37

Are you a member of a gang? Are you not? I'll never

32:39

forget, Steve, early on when I became sharp I sat

32:41

down in division eleven in living unit.

32:43

And I was talking to the detainees and

32:45

the one guy, his name was mister Cunningham.

32:48

I'll share if I just want, you know, this jail

32:50

has never been this good. And I told

32:52

him, I go, what, a, I appreciate

32:54

that, b, doesn't make me feel good because that

32:56

means you obviously been here

32:57

before.

32:57

Because Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been here a couple

33:00

times. He goes, but I'm getting out. I'm getting out.

33:02

So, really, I go, you got family. Oh, yeah. I got two

33:04

little boys and I need to get back

33:06

there because these streets are tough these days,

33:08

and not only could they get shot, but they

33:10

get sucked in by the gang, so I need to get back

33:12

and take care of my kids. I was like, oh, that's good. That's

33:14

good. And I said, well, good luck, and I hope

33:16

you won't see it. And he sat and paused for a second.

33:19

And I go, you don't think you're gonna come

33:21

back. He goes, Sure. I'll probably

33:23

come back. And it was really a thoughtful

33:25

response. I go, why is that? Now you've told

33:27

me that you wanna be back here for your family, why

33:29

are you coming back? He said, well, know, sure. I'm

33:31

not blaming anybody. It's all on me, but

33:34

I never finished school. And so

33:36

my ability to get a job is very limited.

33:38

But he goes, they're always looking for someone to

33:40

stand on corner and Deal dope, because

33:42

I can make a lot of money doing that. I'll probably

33:44

get caught again and I'll probably back in here.

33:46

And I remember looked at it and said, well, I was scribing If we

33:49

can help, let me know. If we can help you with job,

33:51

if we can give you some skill opportunities, let me know.

33:53

And I remember walking away from him, saying

33:55

to myself, nothing he said was

33:57

illogical at all. Yeah.

34:00

This wasn't an evil bad person quite

34:02

the contrary. And so it just got me

34:04

really rethinking some other ass specs

34:06

of it. I often tell people, we don't need

34:08

to go down the road of, is this person

34:10

evil? Is it not evil? Your question is more,

34:12

is he getting out If the

34:14

answer is yes, which is the vast majority,

34:17

do we want them to be in a better position

34:19

than when they got in? And if that answer is

34:21

yes, then it's like we got tackled their

34:23

mental health issues, their educational issues,

34:25

job issues, their ability to have

34:27

anger management to work with their children. We

34:30

have fatherhood class we do the whole range

34:32

of things because it's like we

34:34

have to get engaged with fixing

34:36

these

34:36

problems, not just spewing more people

34:38

out of a jail, into a community, no

34:41

intervention and then puzzled. Scratch

34:43

our heads. I wonder why this isn't getting any

34:45

better. Well, how can they get any better you idiot?

34:48

So people listening might be thinking, well, yeah,

34:50

it's easy for the sheriff to come on your show

34:52

and to say these things. It probably doesn't reflect

34:54

reality. But let me tell another story about my

34:56

experience in the jail. Which is consistent

34:59

with what you're saying. Anyways, before I'd ever met

35:01

you, I was working on project with a woman

35:03

named Hanki, who you have seen know well,

35:05

Hanky was one of the most senior people running

35:07

the jail, and we were trying to make

35:10

some changes to how inmates were released

35:12

to ease their transition back into everyday life.

35:14

And I asked some question of Hanki,

35:17

I don't remember what it was. And she

35:19

said, oh, that just came up at

35:21

office hours this week. And I

35:23

asked what she meant by office hours. And

35:25

she said, well, that's the time I set aside

35:27

each week where any inmate

35:30

can come with a problem and

35:32

talk to me and then I try to solve it.

35:34

This was office hours like

35:36

I have for my undergrads, but for

35:38

the people in the jail, for the detainees. And I

35:40

was so stunned really awed

35:43

by that because it isn't

35:45

how I ever imagined our criminal justice

35:47

system would work, and you only hear

35:49

about the bad parts. To callousness and

35:52

abusive power, but I dread my

35:54

office hours. If I had a choice, wouldn't

35:56

have them. The fact that she would sit

35:58

and have one detainee after another

36:00

come and talk about

36:01

problems. That's very powerful for me.

36:03

Well, you know, it's so funny, Steve. I'll see

36:05

I have some time in my schedule. And

36:08

I was like, okay, you know, I haven't been to division six. You

36:10

know, I'm gonna head over there. It's this constant

36:12

notion of talking with people,

36:14

finding out what the issues might be,

36:17

or then picking people's brains to find out

36:19

better way to get at. My staff has come up with this

36:21

amazing ideas to frontline correctional officers

36:23

will say, Sure. If you ever think of trying this

36:25

and it's like, let's give that a whirl. When

36:27

a person comes into our custody, we

36:29

do this massive download interviews

36:33

saying, okay, what are the issues here?

36:35

And then with that, I assign people

36:37

based on where we can have the biggest

36:39

impact on them. And it's been remarkable

36:42

particularly in the mental health issue. So

36:44

we put together this case management system. So

36:46

even after you've left my place and we have no hook

36:48

into you, no custodial right

36:50

to even be talking to you. We're case management.

36:53

I have vehicles that I've been able to

36:55

obtain, mostly legally. I

36:57

use those to transport people.

36:59

So that if a guy or a woman who's been in my

37:01

custody who's no longer connected to me

37:04

needs a ride to their appointment

37:06

for the mental health doctor that they go

37:08

to, to the counselor that they go to.

37:10

They just call us and we drive them there and we pick

37:12

them up because it's like, what Charlatans we

37:15

be? If we make these big promises why

37:17

you're in custody with us, we're here for you. We're working

37:19

on this. And then we cut you loose and we know that the

37:21

services in the community aren't there. So

37:23

we're

37:24

really, really in that mindset

37:26

of identify, fix,

37:28

address, and stay with folks.

37:31

There used to be a robust

37:33

mental hospital network back

37:35

in the fifties. And we just as a country

37:38

decided to dismantle it. I was looking

37:40

at the data a few weeks ago, there

37:42

at one point were over five hundred thousand

37:44

Beds devoted the state run mental hospitals,

37:47

and that's now down to thirty five

37:49

thousand. The population has doubled

37:51

over the time when this has happened. So Essentially,

37:53

we cut the number beds to less than a tenth

37:55

at the same time the population has doubled.

37:57

And effectively, you now run one of the biggest

37:59

mental hospitals in the world

38:01

at Cook County jail, but without the facilities

38:04

or the staff or the resources you'd want

38:07

to do it.

38:08

Yeah, in forty four of the

38:10

fifty states the largest mental

38:12

health provider in that state is a jail or

38:14

prison. Listen, were there issues

38:16

with the mental health hospital system

38:18

back in the fifties? Yes, there were. Absolutely, they were.

38:21

But what happened was is they eliminated

38:23

the hospitals and never put

38:25

the community system together. So

38:27

truthfully, we have criminalized mental

38:30

illness because people are committing

38:32

acts that are not based on them being

38:34

a bad person because of the mental

38:36

illness, they have stolen some. Because of their mental

38:39

illness, they're sleeping on an L platform.

38:42

And we then bring them into

38:44

criminal custody. So a

38:46

person with an objective illness, everyone agrees

38:49

once they're examined, there's mental illness.

38:51

And we're locking them up. And there's no sane

38:53

person that would sit there, psychologists, would

38:56

sit there and say, based on this person's mental

38:58

illness, I'm gonna put him in a

39:00

setting with other individuals with

39:03

a wider range of illnesses. And

39:05

for an undetermined period of time,

39:07

and twenty three hours a day put him in a room

39:09

by himself. That's what we do. So we've criminalized

39:12

mental illness. And I'll often tell

39:14

people like, oh, what thoughtful society would

39:16

ever do that? And if we're gonna do that,

39:18

why ain't god's name stop there? Let's

39:21

go after those diabetics. You know what? They're

39:23

really, really starting to get under my skin.

39:25

There's costing us a lot of money. We're

39:27

going after them next. And after

39:30

people with heart conditions, wow, they're taking up so

39:32

much space at those hospitals. Let's criminalize that

39:34

to that. Why in god's name do we draw

39:36

this distinction between this illness and say,

39:38

We're gonna lock these people up in the most horrific

39:41

way possible and not treat them, ignore

39:43

it, make it worse. These folks here,

39:45

we're gonna welcome them to hospital. We're

39:47

gonna invite them into a doctor's office

39:49

to get treatment. We're gonna stick with them.

39:51

We'll come up with subsidies so that their medicine

39:54

isn't expensive, and we'll make sure that they

39:56

have insurance. This is absurd

39:58

and it's every reason we have

40:00

to fear that posterity is not

40:02

gonna be kind to

40:03

us. And the irony is that

40:05

in the eighteen hundreds of history buffs

40:07

who are listening, we'll remember the name

40:09

Dorothy Dick's who was an advocate for

40:12

the mentally ill and got them out

40:14

of prisons because it was so inhumane

40:16

to put the indigent mentally ill

40:18

into

40:18

prisons. And she succeeded doing that

40:21

and now we're right back to the eighteen fifties.

40:23

And we are, Steve. We absolutely are. When

40:25

I became sheriff, I'll never forget walking

40:28

into one of the living units.

40:30

And I looked around and there

40:32

was all of these men wandering

40:34

around, covered in blankets and towels,

40:37

wandering aimlessly, so I'm just standing

40:39

in the corner, people wrapped in cocoons

40:42

on their bed. And remember asking

40:44

someone, what is this? Oh,

40:46

this is mostly all mentally ill, but

40:48

we got ten more of these. And then we got

40:50

other ones. And I just remember saying to myself,

40:53

we're a mental health hospital. And so that's

40:55

when I told people like, listen, if you're gonna make

40:57

me be the largest mental health provider

40:59

in the state, we're going to be the best mental health

41:01

provider in the state. And so I just started hiring

41:03

more and more mental health providers to the

41:05

point where my last two directors

41:08

of my jail have been

41:10

psychologists, female psychologists. Another

41:13

visit had to the jail. This one more

41:15

recently I was coming

41:17

to learn about another program you put into place

41:19

called Save. That's a Sheriff's Anti

41:22

Valence effort. And as

41:24

an example, again, of how safe the

41:26

gel feels, in the middle

41:28

of the day, it was outdoor

41:30

time for the inmates. And I

41:32

was just standing there amongst hundreds

41:34

of inmates, no guard, even

41:37

watching over me, and I got to

41:39

talking to one of the inmate who is in the

41:41

SAFE program, a young man, maybe

41:43

twenty five, and he'd carried out

41:45

a series of armed robberies. To

41:47

the SAFE program has many

41:49

different elements to it. And I asked

41:52

him what parts he

41:54

had found most useful. And

41:56

without a second hesitation, he

41:58

says, oh, the therapy

42:01

sessions for sure. And then

42:03

without any prompting, he says,

42:05

I haven't cried once since

42:08

I turned ten years old, but I

42:10

cried like a baby every single

42:12

week in therapy. And when

42:14

I hear something like that, it just

42:17

makes me think so differently about these

42:19

young men. They've done horrific

42:21

crimes, many of them, They seem so

42:23

hard on the outside. But at the

42:25

same time, many of them have just been brutalized,

42:27

traumatized by the life circumstances. And

42:30

Not easy to help these men so belate in

42:32

the game or even know how to help the next

42:34

generation, but it sure feels like an

42:36

important problem when you're in the middle of it. Yeah.

42:38

And you know what, Steve, it's funny because we have always

42:41

left ourselves with really this sort

42:43

of binary choice that either

42:45

our tough on crime or soft on crime. And

42:47

often tell people, you're really misunderstanding it.

42:50

Let's talk about the pragmatic side. They

42:52

are getting out. Do you want to make

42:54

this better or not? If you're really

42:56

interested in doing that, let's start

42:59

peeling apart this thing and

43:01

getting at the underlying reasons

43:03

for this person's enh warrant behavior

43:06

and see if we can drill into this thing.

43:08

And so my latest one, Steve,

43:10

I'd start reading about the impact on

43:12

children of having family

43:14

member who's incarcerated. The studies

43:16

are all consistent. One's

43:19

more bleak than the next as far as what

43:21

this does to these children. And

43:23

I knew that I have thousands of children

43:25

coming and visiting people in the

43:27

jail and that most visiting structures

43:30

are as horrific as you can imagine.

43:32

It's like a bulletproof glass, a little stool.

43:35

You're two inches away from another

43:37

family that's having their own issues.

43:40

They're all yelling each other. So I change

43:42

the structure to where all

43:44

of our visitations are face to face across

43:46

a table. We have books

43:49

and toys all in that area,

43:51

but the new structure is gonna have

43:53

a whole different theory guide. Have

43:55

all these rooms I've designed off of the

43:58

visiting side of it where it's gonna be

44:00

for children to get hearing

44:02

evaluations, children to get educational

44:05

valuations if they choose to. Children who

44:07

might have mental health issue, their parent

44:09

can come and talk to us and have someone on

44:11

staff there who can do an evaluation

44:13

if they need it. Really, to run

44:15

the whole range of things you wanna do,

44:18

to try to work with this child now

44:20

to turn this into a positive interaction

44:22

where we're using this to try to make

44:24

things better. And we've already

44:26

seen a lot of really good things coming out of it.

44:28

We just started it like a year and a

44:30

half, two years ago, but I'm really just

44:32

completely making it up as I go along.

44:34

Mhmm. We don't know of anyone in the country who's doing

44:36

this.

44:40

You're listening to people I mostly

44:43

admire with Steve Levitt. And

44:45

his conversation with Cook County

44:47

Sheriff, Tom DART. After

44:49

this short break, they'll return to

44:51

talk about electronic monitoring.

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46:32

I

46:36

promised at the beginning of this episode that

46:38

we talk about a pilot program that I've been

46:40

doing with the sheriff. Now,

46:42

most people When they first hear

46:44

about the program, they have a negative

46:46

reaction. So I'm curious to see whether

46:48

we could succeed today in communicating what

46:51

both the sheriff and I are so excited

46:53

about its potential impact. For

46:58

a long time, I've believed

47:00

that GPS technology could

47:03

transform the criminal justice system.

47:06

And the idea is really simple. We

47:08

know that people rarely commit crimes

47:11

if they know for sure they'll get caught.

47:13

For instance, nobody commits a robbery in

47:15

front of a police officer. So if we

47:17

could use GPS to

47:19

track a potential criminal's movements.

47:22

We could cross reference his or her

47:24

location at some particular time with

47:27

crime incidents using databases at

47:29

police departments already assemble Chicago

47:31

and many other cities, for instance,

47:34

have installed beacons on the top of buildings

47:36

to triangulate the precise location

47:39

of gunshots that occur. So using

47:41

GPS, you could determine exactly

47:44

who is at the scene of the crime

47:47

and use the GPS not only

47:49

to identify those people, but to find them

47:51

and to question them within a few minutes.

47:54

Okay. So that's all fine. But here's

47:56

where things get really interesting. One

47:58

of the main reasons we keep people locked up in jail

48:01

is that we're afraid of what they do

48:03

in terms of crime when we release them.

48:05

But if GPS tracking greatly

48:08

reduces the crime they'll do, we

48:10

could let a huge share of the incarcerated

48:12

population free with little

48:14

impact on crime rates. And it's just

48:16

a huge win for society. It saves

48:18

a government enormous amounts of money

48:21

and it gives release detainees and

48:23

new chance at life, especially

48:26

since they know they can't commit crimes because

48:28

they get caught for sure and encourages them to make

48:30

good choices. And the only real downside

48:33

is the privacy issue. The government's

48:35

tracking the released prisoners every

48:38

movement. But, you know, if the choice

48:40

is to have the government track your movement

48:43

or to be locked up in prison, people

48:45

will choose GPS tracking every

48:47

single time. And that's obviously an

48:49

incredibly superficial discussion of

48:51

complicated issue. But I really believe if

48:53

people understood the logic and it

48:56

was implemented thoughtfully and compassionately that

48:58

this is something both the right and the left

49:01

should love. Well, anyway, I've had this idea

49:03

for a long time but I didn't

49:05

have any way to test it. So I

49:07

asked you Share for a meeting and

49:10

you were kind enough to make some time.

49:13

Now, I had told you ahead of time

49:15

that the topic I wanted to talk about was

49:17

what they call electronic monitoring in

49:19

the criminal justice world. And you probably

49:22

don't remember the first thing you

49:24

said at that meeting when we were sitting around

49:26

the table and I said I wanted to talk about

49:28

electronic monitoring. I can't

49:30

recall. So you said something

49:32

like there's nothing I hate

49:34

more than electronic monitoring.

49:37

And I thought, oh my god. This

49:39

is the biggest waste of time ever.

49:42

Why did you hate electronic monitoring so much? Unbeknownst

49:45

to you at that time, I had really

49:47

just had this incredible disaster

49:50

dropped on my lap, which is namely

49:52

that we had always operated a

49:54

electronic monitoring program before

49:56

became sure if there was one. If there was a basic

49:58

one for drug offenders and if

50:01

they hit run away from the house or cut their

50:03

device off, we would eventually find them, but

50:05

no harm because they're a drug offender.

50:07

If they're leaving, they're probably just gonna harm themselves

50:09

by getting more drugs. Well, at the

50:11

time you and I were talking, our judiciary

50:14

with never talking to me at all

50:16

had completely transformed who

50:18

they were sending on to a whole monitoring

50:20

from these nonviolent offenders to

50:22

violent

50:23

offenders. And unbeknownst to

50:25

you, I never needed your

50:27

help more than what you walked in

50:29

that door because this all was happening at about

50:31

the same time. So what

50:34

I think people will find unbelievable

50:37

is that this was only

50:39

three years ago when we started this program. But

50:42

at that time, both Cook

50:44

County and virtually every jurisdiction

50:46

in the country were using something called

50:49

RFID technology. Basically, you

50:51

put a beacon in somebody's house and

50:53

an ankle bracelet on their ankle.

50:56

And if they went more than x

50:58

number of feet away from that beacon,

51:00

it would send a signal to your deputies

51:02

saying, this person is gone. Except

51:05

it's completely crazy in world where you have GPS

51:07

because it didn't do your deputies any good.

51:10

There gone, but you can't find them because you don't

51:12

have a text message track them down.

51:14

You don't know whether they've gone to the backyard

51:17

to play with their kids or that they're halfway across

51:19

town. And with so many false

51:21

positives, a lot of people don't get reception

51:23

in their basement. Literally, as I understand it,

51:26

your deputies spent their entire

51:28

day chasing down false

51:31

positives from these beacons,

51:33

and it makes complete sense why

51:35

you hated that program what

51:37

doesn't make any sense to me as how the industry

51:40

in this day and age could be living off

51:43

a technology that was invented in the nineteen

51:45

forties and casting almost

51:47

complete blind eye to GPS. If

51:49

you think about a system as a whole

51:51

that people don't care about, you

51:54

certainly aren't looking for it to be on the cutting

51:56

edge of technology. You certainly are looking for

51:58

it to cost any real money. So

52:00

in that meeting, I didn't know you

52:02

very well. I mean, people listening now

52:04

have a sense that you'll try anything. I didn't

52:06

really know that about you at the

52:07

time.

52:08

Steve always tells me, hey, it's the criminal

52:10

justice system. How could we conceivably screw

52:12

it up and worse than it is? But

52:14

to my great amazement, I laid out

52:17

that vision I had of a very different

52:19

electronic monitoring system. And

52:22

at the end of the meeting, the Attorney

52:24

Chief Staff who's at the table.

52:26

And you said, figure out

52:28

who the one hundred most dangerous people are

52:30

that we've got on electronic monitoring

52:32

right now. And I want GPS enabled

52:35

bracelets on them by next week.

52:37

And that was maybe one of the most triumphant

52:40

moments I've had and four or five years

52:42

that I've been running my center at the University of And

52:45

it took a year, not a week before we

52:47

actually got bracelets on people. Yeah. But

52:49

for the last three years, we've been working together

52:51

We cut through the legal issues and the contracting,

52:54

and we've been able to turn this into big

52:56

success. I just looked at the data. We've

52:58

had about fifteen thousand people.

53:00

Come through the program, a total

53:03

of about seven thousand person

53:05

years of wearing the devices. And

53:08

these are hardcore criminals, like you're

53:10

saying, gun crimes, homicide charges,

53:12

but they've committed almost no crime. The thing

53:14

we measure best of course is homicide. And

53:16

these fifteen thousand people on GPS, they

53:18

have committed eight homicides, which

53:20

is obviously eight homicides, too

53:23

many. But These eight

53:25

homicides represent less than half

53:27

of one percent of the total homicides

53:29

in Chicago over this time period. And

53:32

homicide rate for the people

53:35

on our bracelets is actually

53:37

way below the average

53:40

for all young men in even

53:42

though the people who are wearing our bracelets are wearing

53:44

them precisely because they're the people most

53:47

at risk for this kind of violence. So

53:49

we're seeing about one homicide for

53:52

every one thousand person

53:54

of time that somebody's wearing

53:57

a GPS enabled bracelet. And I'm

53:59

not sure even you or I

54:01

would have expected such good results given

54:03

the background of the people on the

54:05

program. No, we wouldn't

54:07

have. When you have, like, domestic related

54:09

homicides. There's nothing that

54:11

you can do to predict that, but

54:13

the reality of it is there's certain types

54:15

of events that there's very limited things

54:17

that you can do to stop them. And

54:20

so when people are on the device,

54:22

when the devices are on, following

54:24

up on what your hypothesis was.

54:26

They don't commit crimes standing in from a

54:28

police officer by and large. And they don't

54:30

commit them when they have these devices

54:32

on. And so we're seeing that play

54:34

itself out. The other hypothesis

54:37

I had on the front end is that this program

54:39

was gonna free up a lot of time for your deputies

54:41

to do more useful things and chase down

54:43

false

54:44

positives. Has that been true?

54:46

Yeah. So over the course of literally

54:48

got like twenty years. I think it goes back now,

54:50

maybe little longer. We've had people

54:52

go AWOL from the program, and

54:54

it always was a number that stayed somewhat constant

54:57

in about four hundred. Which mind you've given

54:59

the thousands and thousands of people on the program

55:01

is not a staggering number. But since

55:04

we've been able to free up people's time,

55:06

that number has dropped down to

55:08

just a little bit over two hundred and

55:10

we're on pace to drop it below that

55:12

in the coming year. But the other part of

55:14

it too steep is much like I'm program

55:17

oriented to the jail just because you're

55:19

out on home monitoring. I want programs to

55:21

go into your house. So the same issues that used

55:23

to make you incarcerated that sent the

55:25

flag flying for me saying, this person needs a

55:27

mental health treatment, this person needs

55:29

anti violence counseling, this person needs

55:31

anger management, This still applies to you on

55:34

EM. And so we're having a greater ability

55:36

now to take services out to

55:38

the homes to try to address those issues

55:40

as

55:40

well. Which before we couldn't have been doing

55:42

it because we're too busy running over to someone's house

55:45

to find out he was taking the garbage out.

55:47

And there are at least two other

55:49

ways in which these new EM

55:52

program helps the people who are being monitored.

55:54

The first is that

55:56

they have an airtight alibi

55:59

against being accused of a crime that didn't commit.

56:01

If they weren't at a place, they weren't at

56:03

a place. Yep. That's actually for some people

56:05

quite valuable. The other is

56:08

that the kinds of policies you

56:10

needed in place under the old

56:13

RFID system, like around jobs,

56:16

ended up being incredibly

56:18

damaging to people's job prospects.

56:20

Right? Because the judge would pass an order

56:22

saying this person would be on home

56:25

monitoring and they

56:27

could still do their job. But in

56:29

order to check that out, you had to

56:31

send a deputy to go

56:33

to the workplace. Full uniformed gun

56:35

and everything. And because

56:38

you were so busy chasing false positives, it

56:40

would take a couple weeks before the deputies

56:42

could catch up. So basically, these

56:44

people who got arrested but

56:47

still had a job and still gainfully employed

56:49

wouldn't be able to go to their workplace. For

56:52

two or three weeks until the deputy had been there.

56:54

And then the deputy shows up and basically

56:56

tells the employer that the press has been arrested.

56:58

And essentially, it was a job program

57:00

that led everybody losing their job. But

57:03

the beauty of GPS is the judge says

57:05

you can go to your job. They write the

57:07

address of the job in the order. We know where

57:09

it's at. Nobody has to go there. We

57:11

just look every day. If you're going to your job,

57:13

no problem. And that's to me

57:16

the way you use technology to

57:18

make the world a better place. It's just better

57:20

for everybody. I think it's

57:22

easy to get lost and to think this is punitive

57:25

or whatever, but it's actually part

57:27

of this much more holistic way

57:29

of trying to integrate criminal

57:32

justice into making people's lives

57:34

better. It's what you're all about.

57:36

Yeah. And, you know, Steve, I've heard these arguments

57:38

about all. This is just another form of incarceration

57:41

in that. These folks are so misguided. I

57:43

mean, option b is actually

57:45

incarcerated. So I think we'd all agree that's

57:48

not the route to go. But

57:50

the other point there is trust me,

57:52

even with all this innovation and all the help it's

57:54

given us to free us time, we're

57:56

wildly busy. Do you honestly think that

57:58

we or any other entity is sitting there

58:01

watching your client as they go

58:03

from point a to point b to c and d? No,

58:05

we're not. The only time we are interested

58:07

in that is when someone deviates from where they're

58:09

supposed to be or when there's a crime

58:11

committed in that in general area.

58:13

Otherwise, no. There isn't

58:15

like this massive data dump where

58:17

we're sitting there saying, oh, let's go see what

58:19

he's doing in his free time. I I

58:21

suppose we could play that game and

58:23

this is nineteen eighty four and everyone's

58:25

being watched and all the rest of the stuff. That

58:28

is so far from the reality.

58:37

How do you get along with the other sheriffs? Are you

58:39

the black sheep? Yeah.

58:41

It is actually pretty

58:42

comical. The sheriffs, one's nicer than

58:44

the next. But to say we're from different planets,

58:47

really, is the understatement. I went down

58:49

to a conference six months ago, whatever it

58:51

was, wildly neat sheriff came up to

58:53

me. He was asking me some question. Because we're in

58:55

the news and I explained it goes, sheriff, this

58:57

was my big issue for the month and he pulls

59:00

up his phone and shows me a picture of his squad

59:02

car that's all mangled in the

59:04

front. And next to it is a dead cow.

59:07

And then he said, yeah, we hit

59:09

a cow again. Only can they destroy a

59:11

vehicle? As I say, one's

59:13

nicer in the next we are

59:15

usually completely different polls.

59:17

Not because good, bad. It's because my

59:20

issues are completely different. Are

59:22

most of the sheriffs from, you know, Red

59:24

counties, you would call it. Yeah. But

59:26

it really never plays into as such

59:29

when I first became sure if I didn't have

59:31

gray hair and I went down to the first

59:33

Sheriff's Meeting. And I had a hard time

59:35

getting in. And then when I got in, not

59:37

trying to be mean or anything, but some sheriff gave

59:39

me his coat because he thought I was working at the hotel

59:42

where they had in the conference. And I was like,

59:44

no, I'm sheriff too. He said, oh, really?

59:46

He goes, you don't dress like moms like no. Because

59:48

I've never ever worn a uniform in my life. It's

59:50

not my stick. And he's like, wow.

59:52

Where are you from? Cook County. Oh,

59:54

you're him. They go, yeah, it's me.

1:00:00

I find so many things to admire about

1:00:02

Tom Dart. His creativity, his dedication

1:00:04

to public service, his willingness to

1:00:06

try anything, and the fact that he changes

1:00:08

his mind when faced with new evidence. But

1:00:10

the thing I admire most is that he

1:00:13

takes the time to talk to the people whose

1:00:15

lives he's affecting. Who would have thought

1:00:17

that a sheriff with thousands of employees would

1:00:19

routinely carry out evictions in person?

1:00:21

We wander around talking to inmates in the jail.

1:00:24

And he really listens and changes his policies

1:00:26

based on what he hears. It's something

1:00:28

few people with power do because it

1:00:30

requires real effort and most importantly,

1:00:33

humility, a trait that's in very

1:00:35

short supply. And

1:00:39

now is the time to answer a listener question.

1:00:41

And as always, I'm helped by my producer,

1:00:44

Morgan. So hello, Morgan. Hey,

1:00:46

Steve. So a listener named Nick

1:00:48

Roden. He has a question about

1:00:51

a paper that was recently published in the

1:00:53

journal Nature. Which claims

1:00:55

that science in its current state

1:00:57

is less disruptive than in the

1:00:59

past. Are you familiar with the paper,

1:01:01

Steve? Well, I wasn't until

1:01:03

Nick wrote in, but in response to

1:01:05

his email, I wouldn't read the paper.

1:01:08

It's definitely not the first research to have

1:01:10

this view of science. I think within

1:01:12

this field of the history of science, almost

1:01:15

everybody believes what they're finding

1:01:17

is true. That the science being done today is just

1:01:19

a a lot less disruptive than the science that

1:01:21

was being done fifty or seventy years

1:01:23

ago.

1:01:24

Can you explain what they mean when

1:01:26

they say it's less disruptive? What

1:01:29

they mean narrowly is that

1:01:31

the new papers that are being published today

1:01:33

are having less of an influence on

1:01:36

future papers and what those

1:01:38

future papers cite. So a really

1:01:41

disruptive paper like Watson and Quick

1:01:43

seminal work that showed that DNA

1:01:45

was in the form of a double helix is

1:01:47

really disruptive because all the models people

1:01:49

proposed before them, suddenly they're irrelevant

1:01:51

and nobody will cite those papers anymore.

1:01:53

So that's really disruptive research. So

1:01:55

you gotta be careful though that you don't use

1:01:57

disruptive research and good research

1:02:00

as synonyms because I suspect

1:02:02

that some of the best research and economics

1:02:04

like, what was done by conemun

1:02:06

in Teminsky or Thaler in bringing

1:02:09

psychological insights into how

1:02:11

economists think about the world. Those

1:02:13

were really important papers, but

1:02:16

I don't think they'd rate high on this

1:02:18

narrow definition of

1:02:19

disruption.

1:02:20

Howard Bauchner: Okay. So you said that

1:02:23

people who study this field really feel

1:02:25

like this is probably

1:02:27

very true and most research is

1:02:29

coming to the same Conclusion,

1:02:32

but for someone who hasn't studied

1:02:34

this like you, but has spent

1:02:36

their life in

1:02:37

academia, does this ring true

1:02:39

or feel true to you? Well, if I

1:02:41

look specifically at economics, which I know something

1:02:43

about, then I think

1:02:45

I would come to the conclusion that probably aging

1:02:48

academic has come to since

1:02:50

beginning of time, which is that

1:02:52

the generation that did economics

1:02:55

before me, they were brilliant. My

1:02:57

generation it was pretty good. The

1:02:59

generation after me, oh, it's not very

1:03:01

good at all. And there's no truth to it.

1:03:03

So it's an interesting case where I think my

1:03:05

ability to judge what's happening in

1:03:08

economics is probably even worse

1:03:10

than my ability to judge what's happening

1:03:12

in science more broadly. And my

1:03:14

broader take on science is

1:03:17

number one, it seems

1:03:19

to me that there have been

1:03:21

incredible improvements over

1:03:23

time and how easy it

1:03:25

is to do research. The barriers have

1:03:28

just fallen away. So there's better computing

1:03:30

power, there's better access to data,

1:03:33

information is online and readily available.

1:03:35

And if it's easier to do good research,

1:03:37

there should be more good research being

1:03:40

done. And the second thing

1:03:42

that I observe in the world around me

1:03:44

is that it seems like the

1:03:46

science being done today is

1:03:48

very different than the science being done thirty

1:03:50

years ago. And it's amazing. They've been

1:03:52

incredible improvement. So if you think

1:03:55

about innovations like RNA

1:03:57

that allowed us to get COVID vaccines

1:04:00

and CRISPR and the new telescopes

1:04:02

that are gathering information we never had before

1:04:05

All in

1:04:06

all, I'm pretty bullish on science.

1:04:08

It seems like we're doing pretty well.

1:04:10

So going back to this paper's thesis

1:04:12

that there's less disruptive

1:04:15

new research than they're used to

1:04:17

be. Are there any policy implications

1:04:19

from this paper? I have a friend who thinks

1:04:21

about this a lot, Eric Gilliam. In his

1:04:23

view, and I think it's shared by others, is

1:04:26

that it's not necessarily that

1:04:29

within a given field of

1:04:31

science we become less innovative or

1:04:33

less disruptive. It's just that it's

1:04:35

become harder and harder to create

1:04:37

new fields from scratch. And that's partly

1:04:39

because of progress and partly because of

1:04:41

silos within science. And I think

1:04:43

there is a lot of evidence that the National

1:04:45

Science Foundation and the National Institute

1:04:48

of Health who fund a lot of the science research,

1:04:50

they're conservative. They tend to fund

1:04:52

projects that are pretty safe.

1:04:55

So one possible public policy recommendation

1:04:57

sounds like a great one to me is would

1:04:59

there be a way to use funding

1:05:01

to try to encourage really creative

1:05:04

people to try to create new fields.

1:05:06

And I think the best case study I can think

1:05:08

of is someone we've had

1:05:10

on the show couple times, send on Mulanati.

1:05:13

Is a great example of

1:05:16

the kind of researcher we wanna

1:05:18

create. He jumps around between

1:05:20

economics and computer science

1:05:22

and data science Sendell is very

1:05:24

special, but to the extent

1:05:26

that we could find special people

1:05:28

like sendell and really encourage those

1:05:30

people to take chances. And to

1:05:33

do wild thinking, that seems

1:05:35

to be like a great way to spend a chunk

1:05:37

of our science budget.

1:05:38

Nick, thanks so much for the question. If

1:05:41

you have a question for us, we can be reached

1:05:43

at pimafreakonomix dot com.

1:05:45

That's PIM afreakonomix dot

1:05:47

com. It's an acronym for our

1:05:49

show. Steve and I really do read every

1:05:51

email that's sent and we look forward to reading yours.

1:05:56

Today's episode is the one

1:05:58

hundredth installment of people I mostly admire.

1:06:01

And in honor of that landmark, we thought it

1:06:03

might make sense in our next episode two weeks

1:06:05

from now to take look back at some of the

1:06:07

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1:06:09

the past two and a half years. There certainly

1:06:12

have been plenty of both. And

1:06:14

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1:06:16

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1:06:18

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1:06:21

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1:06:23

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1:06:27

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1:06:31

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1:06:33

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1:06:53

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1:06:55

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1:06:58

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1:07:02

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1:07:04

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1:07:07

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1:07:25

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1:07:54

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1:07:56

you wanted me to do when I'll try it? And there's

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