0:08

Speaker 3: Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of People's Stories.

0:13

Speaker 3: I'm your host, priyanka Ocha. Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us.

0:18

Speaker 3: I truly hope you'll enjoy this beautiful story and take away some genuinely brilliant insights with you.

0:25

Speaker 3: Once again, a heartfelt thank you for being here.

0:28

Speaker 3: Stay tuned and let the magic unfold.

0:35

Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered what it takes to make a career in impact consulting?

0:40

Speaker 1: Join us as we take a deep dive into the captivating journey of our guest, mrs Archana Pillai, a former economics professor who has now found fulfillment as an impact advisor.

0:53

Speaker 1: In our candid conversation, we unravel the world of development work, exploring the plethora of opportunities that come with it.

1:02

Speaker 1: We touch upon the conscious choice that needs to be made when pursuing a career in development space, comparing salaries and also spotlighting alternatives such as government projects, family foundations, corporate social responsibility teams and international organizations as institutions that you could work with.

1:25

Speaker 1: We also speak about her personal motivation and how her teaching background played an instrumental role in her current role in impact consulting.

1:35

Speaker 1: In the final segment of our discussion, archana opens up about the nitty-gritty of social sector consulting.

1:42

Speaker 1: She explains how it differs from the consulting offered by mainstream firms like McKinsey, accenture and EY, focusing on the importance of field experience and in-depth understanding of the sector, highlighting a case study of an organization in Mumbai working with adolescent girls.

2:02

Speaker 1: We discuss the assessment of impact, the emotional investment required and the long-term commitment essential in the social development sector.

2:12

Speaker 1: We also speak in depth about how you can transition into this space, if, in case, is something that you are looking forward to, archana also talks about her future aspirations in this space, signifying the immense satisfaction derived from a career in social development.

2:31

Speaker 1: So if this is something that you would like to understand in more details, then continue listening to the episode.

2:41

Speaker 3: Hi everyone, a very, very warm welcome to another episode of People's Stories, and today I am super excited to have one of my teachers from post graduation, archana ma'am.

2:52

Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us. Speaker 2: Thank you, priyanka happy to be here.

2:58

Speaker 3: So I'm going to call you ma'am because obviously, like once a teacher, always a teacher.

3:05

Speaker 3: So you are basically teaching us international business and entrepreneurship while I was doing my post graduation and I think you've delved into a lot of other spaces right now, and today we are going to talk about impact consulting, because that's what you're doing, and so before we get into your like professional space, can you just very quickly introduce yourself and, you know, give some background around you.

3:30

Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much, Priyanka, for giving me the opportunity to be on something like People's Stories.

3:37

Speaker 2: I'm super happy to be here, I'm super happy to reconnect and you know, I think very important for me is when students reach out after so many years and they remember you for both good and bad.

3:48

Speaker 2: I've had experiences, both ways of people telling me through me out of class and all that, but nonetheless I'm happy that you know you're doing so well with what you're doing, but also giving me an opportunity.

3:58

Speaker 2: So a little bit about me, what I studied, where I grew up, and maybe then we can get into, as you said, impact consulting.

4:05

Speaker 2: So I started.

4:07

Speaker 2: I mean, I grew up all over the country. Speaker 2: My father was in central government service so I grew up in multiple cities in India.

4:14

Speaker 2: So I speak quite a few languages because of that Grop in Delhi and Bombay primarily.

4:19

Speaker 2: But I've lived in Patna, trivandrum, hyderabad, nilevind, chennai, so that's where it is.

4:24

Speaker 2: Bangalore as well, that's where it is.

4:27

Speaker 2: I studied economics as my undergrad degree in Bombay and went to do my master's in Trivandrum.

4:36

Speaker 2: While finishing that, I also did journalism because I felt being a journalist was something that I wanted to do.

4:43

Speaker 2: This was in the year 2000.

4:48

Speaker 2: I studied, I did work as a journalist for UNI in Delhi for a while and it was interesting, but somehow again, journalism was not.

5:02

Speaker 2: I also deliver television and radio Asian. Speaker 2: It was starting then, so I did some work with them.

5:06

Speaker 2: I've done all India radio for a brief period as well.

5:10

Speaker 2: It was just exciting, so I did it. Speaker 2: And then I think the fundamental question when your parents ask you is this what you want to do in life or do you really want to do something?

5:19

Speaker 2: And I think teaching was very instinctive for me.

5:22

Speaker 2: I was just thinking today morning. Speaker 2: Why did I become a teacher, if you ask me?

5:25

Speaker 2: My parents were very annoyed that they were not very happy with the idea.

5:28

Speaker 2: I did very well academically, and so, for them, the government service was something that they thought I should do.

5:34

Speaker 2: Teaching was not the coolest of things to have done, but I chose to teach, so I continued to do a PhD.

5:42

Speaker 2: I applied to a PhD program in Azerbaijan.

5:46

Speaker 2: I went on to do my PhD in international business.

5:51

Speaker 2: I studied for a few years in Syracuse, that is, in the United States, new York, upstate New York where I also learned, then sometimes in Portugal.

6:00

Speaker 2: I travelled a bit during my PhD years and then came back to India to teach and continue to teach, and economics was my subject.

6:08

Speaker 2: I have taught it for many years. Speaker 2: That is where, academically, I was.

6:13

Speaker 2: I also met my husband on my PhD program.

6:16

Speaker 2: That's it, and we studied together. Speaker 2: We got married.

6:19

Speaker 2: We've been married for close to 18 years now, yeah, and we've known each other for two whole decades.

6:26

Speaker 2: He's an academic too. Speaker 2: He's a professor of finance.

6:29

Speaker 2: He continues to teach, yeah.

6:32

Speaker 2: And then I think, halfway through your typical midlife crisis is one called it the one when I was 35, I was still teaching, I was doing well.

6:41

Speaker 2: I think I was a decent teacher, so I didn't have that issue.

6:44

Speaker 2: But then you know that personal thing of okay, is this what I really want to do and the legacy of who I am and I think big question life question on should I continue with this?

6:55

Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do but I thought I didn't want to teach anymore and I just quit.

7:03

Speaker 3: So I decided one fine day. Speaker 2: Yeah, I, just one fine day, I mean, I made up my mind that I don't want to do this.

7:11

Speaker 2: And you know, some of my other colleagues who killed another's most, they would every morning come and check in door saying are you sure?

7:16

Speaker 2: Are you sure? Speaker 2: And I have to say this you know and one makes this decision because this is also called on how one makes life choices, in career choices.

7:30

Speaker 2: So I spoke to my mother. Speaker 2: She doesn't, she's not, you know, she didn't have a career or things like that.

7:37

Speaker 2: So I asked her I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do this.

7:40

Speaker 2: And she said I'm going to do this. Speaker 2: And she said I'm going to do this.

7:44

Speaker 2: And she said I'm going to do this. Speaker 2: And she said, yeah, sure, you know I just quit and I'm like are you not worried what I will be doing next?

7:53

Speaker 2: She said, nah, you figure it out. Speaker 2: It's okay, you know. Speaker 2: If not, you can always come home and I will feed you some food.

7:57

Speaker 3: Oh, that's so cute of her actually. Speaker 2: And I want to bring that up because sometimes you know when people come and say parental support, this is parental support.

8:07

Speaker 2: It's not standing with you finding your college you know it is the saying that just don't bother.

8:12

Speaker 2: I mean and the risk you can take. Speaker 3: And also, I think, in your situation, because, as you're saying, and I can vouch for it, you were a good teacher.

8:19

Speaker 3: So, like, when you're doing good in that job, then it becomes even more difficult because, yeah, why would you?

8:25

Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know the other person, of course family support.

8:29

Speaker 2: My husband for at least one year of that I'm just exploring and I'll probably go back to teaching.

8:35

Speaker 2: He took one more year to give up so I quit. Speaker 2: And then quitting was a very life decision, important one.

8:41

Speaker 2: I spent a few months driving around the country, so I did no trips On your own.

8:46

Speaker 2: Yes, some bit. Speaker 2: My mother, my husband, was busy at work.

8:49

Speaker 2: I mean we couldn't both of us just drive around, but I did.

8:51

Speaker 2: My mom was good company too, so she used to hang around and we would do intercity, interstate, we do 800 and her kilometers, you know, just go around, visit places.

9:00

Speaker 2: Yeah, for three, four months I just did that. Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, sounds very luxurious, but at that point of time it was like okay, whatever you know I don't want to do anything more, but I want to travel.

9:10

Speaker 3: No, but just thinking about, about your traveling with your mom, for example, or somebody traveling with their mom, you know, like that's a, I would like to do that.

9:20

Speaker 2: Yeah, my mom, when she was a few years. Speaker 2: I mean, of course now she's not physically much capable of doing it, but she was very adventurous and so you know a lot of that.

9:27

Speaker 2: I think Street came from her. Speaker 2: So we did that and I think towards, I think, five, six months later.

9:32

Speaker 2: I think I took four, five months to do this and purely told myself I'll figure out what I need to do.

9:37

Speaker 2: And the social sector was something development space for something I had worked with as a professor at B school and I said I want to work on it.

9:45

Speaker 2: And then there were other people who wanted me to get back in on a career mode.

9:49

Speaker 2: So there are people you know your advisors, your mentors were like what is she doing and is she okay?

9:55

Speaker 2: And there are many senior people, very elderly, who call and say no, do something, do something.

10:00

Speaker 2: You know what are you doing. Speaker 2: This is all okay when you retire.

10:03

Speaker 2: So it's, and you have to understand I come from a different generation.

10:06

Speaker 2: I don't come from this generation. Speaker 2: You can just drop their jobs and decide they can set up a cafe and go.

10:11

Speaker 2: I couldn't go back. Speaker 2: I come from a time where, having a job and a steady job with promotions till today.

10:18

Speaker 2: You know, like you know, you would have been promoted. Speaker 2: That's what I thought.

10:21

Speaker 2: But I decided to start working the social sector and again, when I decided to work, I didn't know where to start.

10:27

Speaker 2: So there was a lot of okay, where do you go?

10:29

Speaker 2: Okay, work for a non-profit, work for a foundation.

10:33

Speaker 2: I was sure I didn't want to do that because I didn't want to go from one desk type of job to another desk job.

10:37

Speaker 2: I wanted to be in the field. Speaker 2: What I missed being at B school was traveling within the country and meeting people and learning about their lives, and that was one of the most important aspects of my life.

10:49

Speaker 2: If you say the cornerstone of my life is travel, I travel even today about 10 days a month for work.

10:55

Speaker 2: Otherwise, the traveling was important. Speaker 2: I think that was one which I had to do traveling and the social space, traveling when visiting, mentoring, supporting all and that's how it started.

11:05

Speaker 2: I was at IIT Kanpur for a year. Speaker 2: I went there just to figure out what to do and I decided I want to study social impact measurement, which is a very technique space, was new at that point of time, is not very new today.

11:19

Speaker 2: Impact assessment is much more acceptable as a career and people know what to study.

11:25

Speaker 2: But when I started, with not too much of faces people doing it and I just started working, that's where it happened and then, yeah, I think from there on we can talk about my journey where it is.

11:36

Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, for sure, but I actually have like a few questions that I want to ask before getting into that.

11:43

Speaker 3: So first thing that's coming to my mind is that I mean, of course you were doing a good job in terms of being a professor and earning good money, and then you decided to kind of quit everything and take some time to explore and find what you want to do.

11:58

Speaker 3: So I'm assuming that money was never a parameter for you to make decisions.

12:04

Speaker 2: It was a very I mean, I wish I could tell you how difficult it was.

12:10

Speaker 2: It was because you know, I don't come. Speaker 2: I come from a salary background like you know, we don't have business or things, so it's salary employees and my husband and I used to make a certain amount of salary.

12:19

Speaker 2: There was also another life event that happened, that is, my husband decided to move organizations at the same stage that I decided to quit.

12:25

Speaker 2: He felt that he didn't want to work in the same place without me. Speaker 2: It was very speed, but we had to move and then they moved.

12:32

Speaker 2: When he moved, we not just lost my salary, but he had to take a 20% pay cut because it was on the top.

12:38

Speaker 2: So you can imagine our monthly end. Speaker 2: So I can tell you a feeling I used to have.

12:43

Speaker 2: So when initially travel, of course, my mom was kind enough to pay for petrol and you know like she really lived up to that.

12:50

Speaker 2: Once in a while she said, okay, I will give the food bill, so that those things were okay.

12:55

Speaker 2: But what first is when you're a salary employee and you suddenly stop having a salary?

13:01

Speaker 2: You realize you don't. Speaker 2: There's no bank, there's no check that comes at the end of the month, which that is the first feeling you have.

13:06

Speaker 2: Again, you ask yourself about expenses.

13:09

Speaker 2: So you know, earlier you could just go at the airport. Speaker 2: You decide you want to pick up a dress, you just pick it up, you wouldn't think maybe a little bit about the money, but you know, just sudden expenditure decisions you would make it.

13:19

Speaker 2: Now it wasn't happening. Speaker 2: So I had to ask should I, shouldn't I rely or not?

13:24

Speaker 2: I also had a home loan that was still there. Speaker 2: So you know it's not like we didn't.

13:27

Speaker 2: It was not the best of spaces to make that decision, but life teaches you a lot then you know it actually.

13:33

Speaker 2: So for me, you know, priyanka, I always think that when you're put into these situations, you test who you really are, and it's a chance to discover who you are in these difficult times because you have a vision of yourself.

13:44

Speaker 2: But when you're in that space and you have to say no, or you know you can't really go out eating all the time anymore, like you know your dinner has come down, you're not the first person to learn that you check are you okay?

13:57

Speaker 2: And if you are, which means you're fine. Speaker 2: If you're not, which means you need to figure out.

14:01

Speaker 2: You know, like yeah, I think that was my first.

14:03

Speaker 2: That's how I would look at it. Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that these are experiences you can only kind of understand when you go through them, right?

14:12

Speaker 3: Because, yeah, and the second thing I actually wanted to ask from you is that, like when I met you, when I saw you as a person, you know, like I saw you as a very strong personality which I absolutely loved.

14:23

Speaker 3: You know, that's what I really like about you. Speaker 3: And, and, as you said, journalism like I could totally see you in the journalism space, for example, or, you know, just standing for yourself or whatever you want.

14:34

Speaker 3: Where does this, you know, innate confidence comes from?

14:40

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is surprising to me because as a young child, I mean in school all through, I finished last time I did well academically, but I was always very scared.

14:50

Speaker 2: I mean I was not a very, I was a very shy kid.

14:53

Speaker 2: If you look, if you see me now and you look at me nobody can.

14:57

Speaker 2: None of my school friends either. Speaker 2: You know I'm very shy. Speaker 2: I didn't have too many friends.

15:01

Speaker 2: I have a small group of friends and even because I was also studious by nature, I spent all my time studying.

15:07

Speaker 2: It's not like I had two friends to play with, there were people, but it was very, in fact, I used to be scared.

15:15

Speaker 2: I remember my first public speaking experience.

15:18

Speaker 2: So my teachers felt that I was good with language and I should speak publicly.

15:21

Speaker 2: It was in class nine and they wanted to speak on the public day.

15:25

Speaker 2: So they got me ready, I did my speech, practice, everything.

15:28

Speaker 2: I go on stage, I freeze, I'm not able to deliver the speech and I walk off.

15:33

Speaker 2: That's my first experience, right, and that was probably my only such experience.

15:38

Speaker 2: If I look back and I don't know what happened after that, I think it's a lot of, I would say, support that I received from my students.

15:43

Speaker 2: I think it's a lot of support that I received through those years through school, through friends, teachers.

15:48

Speaker 2: I mean the belief that they had in me. Speaker 2: I never saw in myself like the confidence they had oh no, you can do this or my parents that they had I was more worried.

15:57

Speaker 2: No, no, I don't think I can do that. Speaker 2: There was never pressure to perform like at home, not at school either, but I did well and you know, and then that led to it.

16:05

Speaker 2: Once I finished school, I think I changed as a person.

16:07

Speaker 2: Once I went to plus two, I was in junior college in Bombay.

16:11

Speaker 2: So I'm supremely active.

16:13

Speaker 2: All through my degree years I was in all club activities.

16:15

Speaker 2: I ran everything that I wanted. Speaker 2: I changed as a person and I think that comes from.

16:20

Speaker 2: For me, maybe it was always there and that is why I feel people around me nurtured that.

16:25

Speaker 2: So it was not that I went and did it. Speaker 2: And what do you say about strength, also like standing up?

16:31

Speaker 2: I think comes a lot from my parents, because they know and I say that because I have a lot of other friends who grew up with me People who grew up in the same neighborhood as me were constantly told you can't do this because you're a girl, or you can't go here because you're a girl.

16:43

Speaker 2: My parents never did that to me, you know, and because it was going out at night hanging out with boys, I never heard that.

16:50

Speaker 2: And because I didn't hear that, there was always that sense of self that okay, you know I can do this and my parents also.

16:58

Speaker 2: Never embargoed in like this is beyond your.

17:03

Speaker 2: I mean, I have a brother too. Speaker 2: I have a younger brother, I've seen that.

17:06

Speaker 2: So when you ask me this question, what comes back to my mind is that that kind of an ecosystem makes who you are.

17:13

Speaker 2: It's not that I was ideally a strong person, you know.

17:16

Speaker 2: In fact, as a young child, in nursery, I was bullied very well, so it's not like I was always this, you know, warrior princess.

17:24

Speaker 2: No, it was not. Speaker 2: But that's how I see it, and I think then it perpetrates right and it grows on its own.

17:32

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that's what he passed on as well.

17:35

Speaker 3: Like, like, for example, whoever you meet, like, whoever you interact with, I think that's that's something that he would always pass on along to other people as well.

17:44

Speaker 3: So something that I could, I had the privilege to kind of take from you, was this aspect of okay, whatever you want to do, like, do that, do it.

17:54

Speaker 2: Yes. Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so let's let's try to understand now this impact consulting space and all of us, like, are very aware of what, you know, consulting in general is from all these big forms and big fours and all of these.

18:09

Speaker 3: What is impact consulting and how is it different from the traditional, you know, business consulting or management consulting?

18:17

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I am happy to do this piece because it's also, you know, very important for me to communicate.

18:24

Speaker 2: One is how the sector evolved and what.

18:27

Speaker 2: What is this role that? Speaker 2: So you see, a lot of people I'm sure the generation that probably will listen to this knows what the development sector is like the profits on profit space and we always hear a lot of people who come into the sector, who have worked in the corporate, spend a lot of time and then said, oh, I don't think this is giving you the satisfaction I want and I want to go and give back to society.

18:47

Speaker 2: So that is where you meet a lot of young people today who say I want to come and work in the deaf space and they ask you know what?

18:54

Speaker 2: What can I do in this space? Speaker 2: The reason I'm also saying that there are some people who come to this space because they think this is what they wanted.

19:00

Speaker 2: When they go back, because they feel they were not, this is not what they wanted to do or they expected to do, so that I would not say demystifying, but decluttering a little bit of what the development space is and then what impact consulting is.

19:14

Speaker 2: I will do that. Speaker 2: So I think the development sector is evolved globally and specifically in India.

19:20

Speaker 2: It's a very professional sector. Speaker 2: Now, earlier, when you work for an NGO, it was like oh, you know what, you have some time you're sitting at home, your children have grown up, why don't you go work for an NGO?

19:30

Speaker 2: That's the kind of image with you know people have.

19:35

Speaker 2: I had to encounter it to. Speaker 2: A lot of people ask me when I moved to the sector oh, you're really bored of life and that is what probably it is.

19:42

Speaker 2: Sometimes it's demeaning, but that's how the sectors perceive. Speaker 2: So you have to be very careful as you try to be saying oh, I'm a professional today.

19:49

Speaker 2: Nonprofits I have mentored nonprofits which are on the great places to work list today, so it's not like anymore.

19:56

Speaker 2: Or you know what? Speaker 2: I'm just bored. Speaker 2: That's why I'm doing this.

19:58

Speaker 2: So it's a very hard course. Speaker 3: It's a conscious decision making that people are doing now.

20:03

Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and they're choosing development as a career.

20:07

Speaker 2: So there was a stage when you looked at development as a opportunity to give back to society, volunteer Okay, I'm going through a difficult phase in my life, you know.

20:16

Speaker 2: I've gone through a divorce and I want two years off, so I'll go off into the dip.

20:19

Speaker 2: I want people to say that I want to just get back, which is not what it is today.

20:24

Speaker 2: So you today consciously choose not just as a workspace but also as a career option.

20:28

Speaker 2: So you're choosing your next part of your career.

20:31

Speaker 2: And the good thing is, today's young people and I'm really proud of the fact when I say young people, people in their early 20s today don't look at what they choose and study as their lifelong career.

20:40

Speaker 2: They know that they will do it, but if something else comes up, it's they like they will move.

20:44

Speaker 2: And that is why a lot of people in that generation are, you know, beginning to move into spaces.

20:48

Speaker 2: One is entrepreneurship, which I'm absolutely happy that they're doing it, because that's a big space, but also social entrepreneurship, the space that I am in in the development sector.

20:57

Speaker 2: I also find a lot of social entrepreneurs. Speaker 2: Young people in their mid twenties to mid twenties were making these kinds of choices.

21:02

Speaker 2: So that is one right. Speaker 2: So the sector has changed, the sectors become professional, the sectors more challenging.

21:10

Speaker 2: I think the dynamics of young people today has also changed. Speaker 2: You know, like if you talk to your parents or grandparents, probably they would choose a job which was their career for 40 years.

21:19

Speaker 2: They would stay there. Speaker 2: It was loyalty, it was.

21:21

Speaker 2: I'm going to just do only only this all the time, right, I'm not going to do anything else.

21:25

Speaker 2: I wouldn't take a risk with my life if I was a businessman.

21:29

Speaker 2: I lived in one town, I did business. Speaker 2: I did business there, I had some export.

21:32

Speaker 2: I would probably export a little bit. Speaker 2: So there was something called you know, security, financial security, which is a keyword, and that has changed a lot today, because, because parents of young people are financially secure, younger people are making bolder decisions or saying, okay, I will do this, which is great, which is you know, which is.

21:49

Speaker 2: I think what's the problem In the dev, fortunately, because of one is professionalism and the other decision is I must say this also I'm sure young people who listen to this would want to know does it pay?

22:00

Speaker 2: Well, it pays adequately. Speaker 2: It may not pay a corporate salary, but it does pay a decent amount of money.

22:07

Speaker 2: So it is no more again very small salary. Speaker 2: It is a decent amount of salary but, as I said, decent it could make depending on the positions you are, the experience you have.

22:15

Speaker 2: You could make 12-15-20 lakhs a year easily, which, as per Indian standards, is good enough for you to live a decent life.

22:24

Speaker 2: You can do what you want, like take a holiday, do all those things.

22:28

Speaker 2: So the sector pays well. Speaker 2: The sector is looking for higher quality talent, which means it has become competent, which it was not earlier.

22:36

Speaker 2: So today, if you apply for a job when you're transitioning, there's no guarantee you're going to get it, because the higher the people are applying for the same thing.

22:43

Speaker 2: So, which also means that there is people are asking what are you bringing to this?

22:46

Speaker 2: Like that Are you bringing? Speaker 2: You know you bring operations experience.

22:50

Speaker 2: Do you bring marketing experience, like, for example, a lot of marketing firms, not in social sector, so they bring that experience of marketing.

22:57

Speaker 2: But what we needed that? Speaker 2: That then to the NGO thinking or the developer sector thinking they're able to do that.

23:04

Speaker 2: So that is the kind of approach that I think organizations today are looking at and young people today find it.

23:10

Speaker 2: So that's one opportunity. Speaker 2: So, sector, as I said, this not just a sector, it's a career that you can choose and there's an opportunity to experiment so you can also move around the spaces.

23:21

Speaker 3: And if you look at, the one question that I'm thinking about is when you're saying dev, so development, basically, are you meaning like to be, to be working on the ground?

23:33

Speaker 2: Okay, I'll explain yeah, I'll explain what is the structure of the.

23:36

Speaker 2: So what are the ways in which you can do the dev? Speaker 2: It is not necessarily on the ground, so you could probably work for a Dell Foundation in their Delhi office this is also development sector work, where there are typical functions like marketing, operations, program training.

23:50

Speaker 2: So Dell probably funds 100 inches and thereby needs a program management team to take care of that, so you could be an operations manager managing their programs that they give funding to.

24:01

Speaker 2: You can actually take managerial talent to the debt sector, and there it is not on ground.

24:06

Speaker 2: You can work for family foundations. Speaker 2: You can work for large corporations.

24:10

Speaker 2: They most or most large corporations have the CSR teams, corporate social responsibility teams.

24:15

Speaker 2: You could work on those teams where, specifically, the corporate is putting around money and helping you help them manage the, not just the financial aspect of the social aspect.

24:24

Speaker 2: So, for example, a corporate is working on environmental climate change for this year and you get to work in a sector and look at, let's say, 10, 15 organizations working in the space travel study.

24:34

Speaker 2: Give them support, use your skills. Speaker 2: You're using managerial skills.

24:37

Speaker 2: When I say development, I mean the landscape of all this.

24:40

Speaker 2: So there is international organizations. Speaker 2: You could work for the UN, world Bank.

24:44

Speaker 2: Those are, of course, more career positions. Speaker 2: You have to ideally have a development degree.

24:47

Speaker 2: You can't go there without a development degree. Speaker 2: So whatever masters in development or social work, and you apply to those programs, there are many positions that open.

24:55

Speaker 2: That is one space. Speaker 2: Second is you could work in foundations or CSR arms or you could also work with large social sector organization nonprofits, like, for example, you want to work with save, other one that makes legit proper.

25:08

Speaker 2: They have a large pan India presence. Speaker 2: These are all social sector organizations which are run like corporations.

25:16

Speaker 2: They're the size of that and then they will be the manager here, or they will be state manager or regional manager.

25:22

Speaker 2: But you're also supervising them and also with government, yes, with government as well.

25:29

Speaker 2: So today with government, say, for example, niti IO today has contractual positions that you could apply for.

25:35

Speaker 2: So you could apply for. Speaker 2: So let's say you work for KPM, you're in Y, you could take us a vertical and apply for a one year position to Niti IO and the IO has an office called the DMEO, the monitoring and evaluation office, which continuously puts out contractual positions.

25:49

Speaker 2: So you could go there for two years. Speaker 2: What does that do you get to see development work, large scale from the government perspective.

25:55

Speaker 2: You probably have not seen what implementing a Pradhan, matvi, rosgarh, avasya Ojina look like.

26:02

Speaker 2: But when you work for this for two years and this is probably so you are already consulting, let's say, a large firm you could just take two years off.

26:09

Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of young people do that. Speaker 2: I mean, I've met a few people who have done that gone into Niti IO.

26:13

Speaker 2: You can work with government. Speaker 3: And the the credit, proper jobs and the prerequisites to be in this, like, for example, to apply to any of these programs.

26:23

Speaker 3: Or like do you need again a degree or just a yes?

26:27

Speaker 2: No, so you don't need a master's degree in development, you need a master's degree in general.

26:30

Speaker 2: So I'm sure everybody you know you have to do a minimum master's degree.

26:33

Speaker 2: The purpose is only done undergrad. Speaker 2: You may not be good enough.

26:37

Speaker 2: Then, depending on the type of role you apply to Niti IO.

26:41

Speaker 2: Somebody with a five years to seven years experience can also apply to an associate position.

26:44

Speaker 2: So they have these associate positions. Speaker 2: Somebody I mentor from XIMB.

26:48

Speaker 2: He worked, I think, for five years in the development space and then went in.

26:52

Speaker 2: But even if you don't have development experience like that people who work with APMG, let's say but you have done government related projects, your CV should have some tinker or so for a government like position, Some exposure to government or social sector activity.

27:08

Speaker 2: So you can't probably come from coding directly. Speaker 2: So that could be like oh, you don't know how that sector works.

27:13

Speaker 2: You don't need to have done full-fledged jobs, but your job may have had that interface, For example at government department clients, and so you worked in a firm where the Ministry of Health and Family Welfare was your client.

27:24

Speaker 2: So you probably understand the schemes they have or the projects they have.

27:28

Speaker 3: The idea is that you should have some kind of exposure, and is this only for the government organization that you're talking about or also for private ones?

27:38

Speaker 2: So in the private space. Speaker 3: I think it's a little bit more open.

27:40

Speaker 2: The reason is in the private sector, they probably look at your managerial skills.

27:44

Speaker 2: So, for example, one of the positions I was hiring helping hire we hired somebody from a Goldman Sachs for senior position.

27:54

Speaker 2: Somebody from Goldman Sachs whose entire career was in finance till then but basically done only finance and was undergrad degree IIT Madrasa.

28:03

Speaker 2: I am Bangalore but had worked for 17 years, I think, with investment banks, and that person was heading a practice in a development space.

28:14

Speaker 2: But why do you hire someone like that? Speaker 2: You hire them because they bring that talent, they bring years of understanding of this managerial talent.

28:21

Speaker 2: And then there was inclination but this person had no, I don't think ever spent time on the ground.

28:28

Speaker 2: He had no field experience, also lived majority of the professional life in UK, not even in India.

28:33

Speaker 2: So that is one we also hired for associate level, for example, entry level positions.

28:38

Speaker 2: You want to go into an entry level position in non-profit to understand.

28:42

Speaker 2: So, for example, if your job in corporate was PR, you could apply for either PR or fundraising activities in the non-profit sector and there are lots of people who look for able hands to able to do this.

28:54

Speaker 2: So if you've done marketing, you know how to be able to pitch, you can go to a nonprofit and tell them that you can fund them for that they don't have prerequisites.

29:01

Speaker 2: In fact, you know, a lot of times I tell people that they can write down what they think are their strengths and take it to the organization.

29:08

Speaker 2: This is what I'm good at and you will find good positions.

29:11

Speaker 2: So even strategy planning, like four year strategy, five year strategy, overall design.

29:15

Speaker 2: So depending on, I think, before you enter the sector, you ask yourself what are you bringing?

29:19

Speaker 2: What is the skill set you're bringing? Speaker 2: Do you have exposure?

29:22

Speaker 2: That's one that's great. Speaker 2: You have a depth degree grade and these are entry points are easy.

29:27

Speaker 2: If you're not, why are you transitioning? Speaker 2: But what are your skills?

29:30

Speaker 2: Like, I've done finance all my life or I've done ops, I work with Gatti and I know how to manage logistics.

29:35

Speaker 2: Large organizations like your, akshay Patra, probably need somebody to manage their kitchen and you can work in that kind of roles right, because there again it is.

29:43

Speaker 2: You understand how to do value changes and you can get it.

29:47

Speaker 2: So I think requirements, even for the government, there's no strict requirement.

29:52

Speaker 2: It's just that if you're good enough, if you have done something, you will make it, and I also feel personally in my experience of having hired people across the board even if you have not worked, I have seen a lot of people come from the sector who are probably volunteered in some capacity.

30:06

Speaker 2: So they have spent time in the social space in some way and thereby have this calling it comes with that.

30:13

Speaker 2: So you will probably not have chosen to come to this space if you have not had that inclination or that exposure which says definitely use my time differently.

30:23

Speaker 3: And typically, like everybody that you've seen in this particular area, like your ecosystem in general, is everybody here because they've found this as the thing that they want to do, so it's like something that they really want to work on.

30:38

Speaker 3: Or have people also stumbled upon it and felt like, okay, this is something interesting, I want to do it.

30:44

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean funny that you asked, because there are a lot of people I asked the question when we hire I mean, I help other people hire resources and I always ask them this question why are they here and how do they decide?

30:56

Speaker 2: More often than not it's not a conscious choice, so they've basically stumbled upon it Very rarely.

31:02

Speaker 2: So people who have chosen the sector are also people who probably study, spend some time in there.

31:08

Speaker 2: They will probably clearly be there, but I have seen majority of the people who chose in this space are they just stumble upon it, like they have a friend, they're a family friend, they're a sister or sibling who decided to do it, and then they see it and they let it run.

31:22

Speaker 2: And how many of them believe this is where they want to be?

31:27

Speaker 2: I think I have both answers. Speaker 2: One is that there are people who come here and they like take a fish to water and are happy.

31:34

Speaker 2: They struggle a little bit in terms of maybe adjusting to, let's say, professional protocols, punctuality, discipline.

31:40

Speaker 2: The sector is getting there, but it's more like okay, you have to be accommodated with everyone, so if there's a meeting and people don't show up, you can't just sort and cultivate people to come.

31:50

Speaker 2: I think that understanding has happened. Speaker 2: But there are also people I've met who very graciously felt this is not what gives them satisfaction.

31:59

Speaker 2: So they've tried it, they would do it, but this is not necessarily what they want to do as a career and they move.

32:07

Speaker 3: Is there some kind of moral dilemma that people face when they decide that this is not for me?

32:14

Speaker 2: I think, more than the moral dilemma. Speaker 2: So it's like I told you right what they come in with.

32:18

Speaker 2: So if they come in with the notion that they are coming here because they have something more to offer and they look at it as they're calling, then they probably feel disappointed faster.

32:28

Speaker 2: If you come in with the expectation that I'm on I just want to figure out another sector.

32:31

Speaker 2: So, for example, I'm coding out and you give me I'm going to try doing it.

32:35

Speaker 2: If it doesn't work I'll go back. Speaker 2: If I have that attitude, I'm fine.

32:38

Speaker 2: But I think the people who get disappointed the more are the few people who feel that they have come here with a problem.

32:44

Speaker 2: So it's, I think, everywhere as you change your switch career or as you decide, if you give it a, you know, okay, I'm going to experiment and see what happens.

32:52

Speaker 2: You can be kind to yourself, like a lot of people you know, take that slack of oh my God, I didn't do.

32:56

Speaker 2: Well, I'm like it's okay, no big deal, and people move on.

33:02

Speaker 3: Yeah, and so in terms of consulting, so from what I am understanding, from, basically from what you are telling up until now, is it's very similar to consulting in general, like management consulting in general, as you would do in any other firm, based on which area you are in.

33:17

Speaker 3: Just the, let's say, the target space is a little different.

33:22

Speaker 3: It's it's focused a little more on social aspects.

33:26

Speaker 3: Is that correct? Speaker 3: Yes, yes.

33:29

Speaker 2: So the difference between so I, I don't know what the social also so that is my term the word social development, because social probably leads to only social issues and social causes.

33:40

Speaker 2: Here we are saying development doesn't power, dear education, a quality of education.

33:44

Speaker 2: So the set, the definition is larger. Speaker 2: So I think now we again jargon of sectors.

33:49

Speaker 2: It's a sector is now social. Speaker 2: Word has changed.

33:51

Speaker 2: Although we call it social impact assessment, the designs are called impact assessment.

33:56

Speaker 2: But this consulting is also called social sector consulting.

33:59

Speaker 2: So if you go to Deloitte or EFI or KPMG, they will have social sector sector or deaf sectors and they also do social sector.

34:07

Speaker 2: For example, Deloitte has a social impact team, bobbe big one, which whose primary function is to do social sector.

34:15

Speaker 2: And when they do social sector it means development, government, international organization.

34:19

Speaker 2: So even there it is. Speaker 2: So what, what is different in this?

34:23

Speaker 2: How is it different from, let's say, a Mackenzie or a PCG's consulting?

34:26

Speaker 2: Mackenzie also has social sector. Speaker 2: So that shows how the sectors change, that today even large firms have specialization.

34:34

Speaker 2: What is the cause and purpose that? Speaker 2: It's very similar to any other consulting task where you help an organization either strategy, operations, marketing, growth, expanding to new markets, like we work on strategy with organizations and I say NGOs which want to go to other countries, or with large international NGOs like counterpart or opportunity, who have businesses across, I mean, who basically have practices around countries and want to compare.

35:00

Speaker 2: So you do see that you know it's very similar to your standard consulting and require the same set of consulting skills.

35:07

Speaker 2: I think the only difference, if I may pull out, is sector exposure and that is where a little bit and I'm we can talk about it in detail is a little bit of field understanding helps.

35:16

Speaker 2: So, compared to where, let's say, I'm studying shipping and let's say I'm a shipping, I'm a consultant who works at the dog.

35:22

Speaker 2: I will probably visit the yard, look at ships. Speaker 2: I need to understand.

35:25

Speaker 2: But if I don't, I can probably study it on a book that do.

35:28

Speaker 2: But you will still do field right. Speaker 2: You will still go into the ground, speak to grassroots technicians, employees.

35:32

Speaker 2: As a consultant, you do that. Speaker 2: You visit your sites at least once in a while, except maybe in pure services like financial services and other, you don't really need a client.

35:43

Speaker 2: I mean user interface directly. Speaker 2: So it will happen.

35:47

Speaker 2: I mean I think that is the difference, other than that, priyanka, honestly it is the same type of consulting, because I've worked with people who come from the X and turn all that and the only difference is probably when you are consulting in an accent or or a KPMG or revive, you may not see the ultimate user of your product.

36:04

Speaker 2: Here you probably will see, because you're working with the company, with the NGO, with the nonprofit, the for profit organization.

36:10

Speaker 2: You'll also see their beneficiaries directly and you do consulting at a very high level.

36:13

Speaker 2: You don't see who's going to use it as a report. Speaker 2: That goes and that's it here.

36:16

Speaker 2: It's not just report. Speaker 2: You finish a report, help them with implementation, sitting on meetings, you go into the field.

36:23

Speaker 2: So I think the responsibility ownership you have is a little bit more than writing a report.

36:27

Speaker 2: Oh no, what I'm saying is going to be the best. Speaker 2: Yeah, that's.

36:30

Speaker 2: That's probably the second difference in terms of yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:34

Speaker 3: I think that makes it much more clear to understand and visualize, like what's going to look like.

36:39

Speaker 3: Also, in terms of can you probably talk about a use use case or you know, like a case study that can explain what impact assessment is and you know what is so what's the purpose and how would you approach it and what's the end result from that, from any experience that you have?

36:59

Speaker 2: So I'm going to pick up I mean quite a few, but I will pick up one on adolescent girls.

37:05

Speaker 2: That a project that I work with an adolescent girls and it has a little bit of an international ramification because we've done I've seen similar studies in other countries.

37:15

Speaker 2: So this is an organization based on a Mumbai is run by a, by an actress, super smart, and she runs an organization with basically helps young girls, adolescent girls, practice self defense, so empower them to be able to protect themselves in cases of any difficulty that might arise.

37:37

Speaker 2: A very simple logic of this is that you teach these girls some skills and they can use it if need be.

37:44

Speaker 2: So what should be the value and impact of such a task?

37:47

Speaker 2: This program was run. Speaker 2: I can talk about pre-COVID and the post-COVID.

37:52

Speaker 2: Pre-covid you just run as a follow-on session on a Friday or a Saturday where the trainer would go to the school and this was run across, I think, 300 plus government schools in Mumbai at that point of time.

38:03

Speaker 2: And when I said all of them, the girls between the ages 11 to 16, 11, 12 to 16.

38:09

Speaker 2: And they were taught. Speaker 2: The team would go to the school and run these activities.

38:14

Speaker 2: But like an additional piece of activity. Speaker 2: So I think, as she was running the organization, I think we got asked the same question what is the impact you're generating?

38:22

Speaker 2: I think people come to me and you know there is impact, right, you know, of course it's good, but how do you prove that there is value of self-defense training for your adolescent girls and what is the logic?

38:34

Speaker 2: I mean, all of us agree or there is its high value, but if a donor asks, a donor wants to know what is the real value Like, why should I support you?

38:42

Speaker 2: Or if an international organization wants to replicate the module in, let's say, europe, scandinavia or any of these other, or East Asia, why will I pick the same module?

38:53

Speaker 2: So she came to me when two times she came to me actually two times.

38:57

Speaker 2: The first time she came to me saying that I need an assessment done of the work that I'm doing and that part of time she was already doing some data collection and all that.

39:05

Speaker 2: The second time she came to me was in COVID.

39:08

Speaker 2: Her program had stopped because schools were shut down and she was piloting an online chatbot for the girls.

39:18

Speaker 2: So it was going away from being physical to be a chatbot, because I think in the period we also saw a lot of data around violence and other things.

39:25

Speaker 2: That was probably hiding under the garb of being at home or whatever.

39:29

Speaker 2: So she felt like the app and that is when she came to me to do the app.

39:34

Speaker 2: The reason I'm telling you the long story is also to probably get people thinking if I have to say that this program really is valued.

39:40

Speaker 2: She can get donations, probably from a few people by telling the story.

39:43

Speaker 2: But to run an organization to do large scale work, you need more investment.

39:49

Speaker 2: So who would invest in a bot which works with young girls and teaches themselves with hands?

39:54

Speaker 2: And what will the bot do? Speaker 2: The bot will probably say do this, do so many crunches, do so many lift, give you some material on gender based violence, explain to you what abuse would be and play some games with you and learn.

40:09

Speaker 2: But why would any corporate want to give money to her?

40:13

Speaker 2: So we decided we will do an assessment. Speaker 2: So she wanted me to do a pilot assessment for her.

40:17

Speaker 2: That is, we wanted to see first this whether chatbot is worthy and, if so, what is the value of it.

40:22

Speaker 2: So what does impact assessment do? Speaker 2: Impact assessment basically applies to understand.

40:26

Speaker 2: I mean a general good quality assessment is where you understand the client's problem or concern why do they approach you and what is it they're trying to do and then you design a full-fledged study.

40:39

Speaker 2: Basically it's more like a study designed than an assessment alone.

40:42

Speaker 2: So maybe the assessment work at times is confused, like an educational assessment at the end.

40:45

Speaker 2: Of course, no, this is not like that. Speaker 2: This is more a strategic exercise where you are studying first to understand their problem.

40:52

Speaker 2: What is their focus and where do they want to go. Speaker 2: So here it was very clear.

40:55

Speaker 2: One, she wanted to prove the value of the bot. Speaker 2: Second, she wanted to take the bot to scale, because bot was an easier way to scale than running the physical class alone.

41:03

Speaker 2: Because in that time parents were not happy with the idea of girls being seen doing kicking or learning karate.

41:09

Speaker 2: I was not seen as feminine enough. Speaker 2: So again, if you had a bot you could do, probably in your house, and still learn these things.

41:17

Speaker 2: So we sat down and said what is that? Speaker 2: What value?

41:20

Speaker 2: How do we assess the impact of an app like this?

41:23

Speaker 2: What is the value generated? Speaker 2: So we have multiple techniques.

41:27

Speaker 2: Of course, here there's a large amount of adolescent psychology that we have.

41:33

Speaker 2: So on my team normally we have a subsequent expert I had somebody who had studied gender and psychology, who was helping us understand the background of these kinds of students and studies and we said we'll try and assess the value this app is adding, or what is adding to them in multiple dimensions.

41:50

Speaker 2: One is physical, second is psychological. Speaker 2: Physical easy to measure because you would probably give them an online test of how many minutes they can hold a blank, or seconds they can hold a blank and say, okay, doesn't it grow?

42:00

Speaker 2: So physical was easy. Speaker 2: I think NCRT in India also has a set of guidelines for physical health.

42:06

Speaker 2: So that was important. Speaker 2: Why was that important?

42:09

Speaker 2: The premise here is that when girls are physically fit, they can take care of themselves.

42:13

Speaker 2: So especially the girls when they go through puberty, at that age of people they end all of sense, either get anorexic, they stop eating, or they go the other way around, like you end up overeating and around.

42:24

Speaker 2: So the physical fitness piece was very important and I think that helped them reach out to the masses, especially in government schools, because the PT periods are always for girls.

42:33

Speaker 2: It was free in government schools. Speaker 2: They were not doing any activity.

42:36

Speaker 2: They may be played a little bit, but they really did not. Speaker 2: You know, they were not like athletic enough, and so the school teachers were more than happy to have this program Right.

42:45

Speaker 2: So, and I think parents also had an issue when it was in school, when it came online like, okay, now you need to find the time.

42:50

Speaker 2: Somebody has to prompt you. Speaker 2: You may not have a phone, so how do you make sure it happens?

42:54

Speaker 2: So one is we said we'll understand the physical benefits that a girl is getting out of it, and then the emotional, social and psychological benefits.

43:01

Speaker 2: So are there any values? Speaker 2: Why did we do this in the first place?

43:04

Speaker 2: We are doing this so that girls have internal support and strength to be able to.

43:10

Speaker 2: Let's say, you are, you know you encounter each teasing on the way back from school.

43:14

Speaker 2: How will you deal with it? Speaker 2: It's not necessary that you have to kick the person, but, you know, can you stand up for yourself and can you say what needs to be said and walk on without being subdued by what is happening over it, or your friend is going through it.

43:25

Speaker 2: So how do we assess that? Speaker 2: So in psychology, we do multiple, you know, social use techniques called vignettes, role play, to understand that.

43:33

Speaker 2: So again these girls, how do we assess them? Speaker 2: We have to figure out do they respond like this because you taught them, or do they actually have instant?

43:39

Speaker 2: Because a lot of time young people, when you ask them, will you do this?

43:42

Speaker 2: They will say the right thing because that's supposed to be the right thing, to be standing.

43:45

Speaker 2: But as an assessor you can't say, oh, I got all positive on.

43:48

Speaker 2: You have to do simulations, like put them through scenarios, exercises.

43:52

Speaker 2: Very difficult was also COVID period. Speaker 2: You know, for us to get girls together was not possible.

43:57

Speaker 2: We had to get parents to a publisher. Speaker 2: So in a design like this, what we do is we basically break up how we should.

44:04

Speaker 2: So just to give you I'm not going to go into full framework and stop with an example of how we saw change, how we got to change, one of the very interesting pieces of evidence that came from parents and we asked what is the value of such program?

44:16

Speaker 2: So, for example, some of the parents reported that the girls now claim a glass of milk at night, saying I also want to buy.

44:21

Speaker 2: Sure, why should only my brother bring me? Speaker 2: I also want to glass you.

44:24

Speaker 2: So the ability to stand up and ask for themselves.

44:27

Speaker 2: It might look to an untrained night, might look like what's the big deal?

44:30

Speaker 2: What last? Speaker 2: It's a very big deal. Speaker 2: It's a first step towards expressing an idea of myself and asking for something.

44:40

Speaker 2: Similarly, you know, there were many, many of the girls and teachers reported instances of them protecting other girls, that is, girls who were like being abused or standing up.

44:50

Speaker 2: There were situations where they found that in a parent's house something was like, in a friend's house something was happening.

44:56

Speaker 2: They would get their parents to go and counsel the other parents.

44:59

Speaker 2: So you see a lot of behavioral change which happens.

45:02

Speaker 2: And how does one document be so that methods, qualitative research that I use.

45:06

Speaker 2: We use this to document Now what happens. Speaker 2: The donor then begins to see value.

45:09

Speaker 2: It is not just about that class and that 20 minutes of exercise.

45:13

Speaker 2: It's not an exercise class. Speaker 2: It's a class where you're building the resistance ability to do these things.

45:20

Speaker 2: So this is what we studied. Speaker 2: I mean it took us a while three months of pilot.

45:24

Speaker 2: There are methods to it and then she was able to use this.

45:27

Speaker 2: I think I do remember that after a point of time she didn't win a few awards for this work and the bot that she created.

45:34

Speaker 2: So this helps them understand the actual value they are creating and how does one report on that value.

45:40

Speaker 2: And second, gives other people.

45:43

Speaker 2: So assessment gives the third party credibility, saying that, okay, you know what.

45:48

Speaker 2: Somebody else has looked at your work and they feel so my job is to basically help them get more credibility for them.

45:53

Speaker 2: So it's not just storytelling, it's storytelling of videos.

45:56

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it is actually number, yeah, so I mean yeah all right.

46:00

Speaker 3: So in terms of assessment, basically it could be as you're saying.

46:03

Speaker 3: It could be quantitative assessment, which requires a lot of technical skill sets, right, so statistics and all of that.

46:09

Speaker 3: And then it could also be qualitative assessment, as you're saying, which could deal with behavioral changes or those kind of things.

46:18

Speaker 3: I think in general it looks like a very interesting space.

46:20

Speaker 3: But what I'm also trying to understand is like now we understood that, okay, what is the kind of work you might do?

46:28

Speaker 3: This is one use case, one example.

46:31

Speaker 3: I'm sure there are thousands of different kind of examples.

46:35

Speaker 3: If somebody wants to, let's say, somebody has made up their mind, they want to kind of test themselves, or wants to get into it like consciously, would you have a framework in your mind Like how can you do that, what courses should you pursue, how you should start your journey and what could your career progression look like?

46:57

Speaker 3: In one case, for example, you're also ambitious about it and want to make it big in your life.

47:03

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's a really good question, because I must also say how the sectors changed in the last three years.

47:08

Speaker 2: Right, so I've been around, for I mean, I've been conscious in the sector for the last 10 years, but 25, 7 years before that also.

47:15

Speaker 2: So I think, more than just how do you plan, I would say what is the value you now have and, of course, the journey you can take.

47:21

Speaker 2: So depending on whether you want to choose it as a full-time.

47:24

Speaker 2: So if you have decided to choose it as a full-time career and really feel that you are especially experimental, I would go differently.

47:30

Speaker 2: But if you consciously feel yours, here's what you want to do.

47:33

Speaker 2: I think up front, you should try and get yourself a master's degree in development, because that's from their overseas, whether it's from a TIS or next-hand law Any of the Indian institutions are the impremgis there or go abroad and study, do a proper master's in development studies or social work, or master's in public policy.

47:49

Speaker 2: There are a few of these dimensions. Speaker 2: Some of these programs are good, scholarship-based programs.

47:53

Speaker 2: That is one approach. Speaker 2: Take in this.

47:56

Speaker 2: I mean this is where you're investing two years time plus money, Supposing you don't want to do that and if you have the chance to take a sabbatical, assuming that you've worked enough years and saved on money and you convinced your parents you want some time off.

48:06

Speaker 2: You could pick up any of the fellowships in India.

48:09

Speaker 2: So India has multiple fellowships, like Teach for India, piramal.

48:12

Speaker 2: You know there are many CM's office fellowships. Speaker 2: You could work with the Chief Minister of Jamun, kashmir, chief Minister of Madhubarach.

48:17

Speaker 2: Their offices have fellowship positions. Speaker 2: You get salaries I'm not saying you, but your salary will not be a few lakhs or even lakhs, but you will get some money.

48:26

Speaker 2: And when you're in that space you choose a fellowship. Speaker 2: But you probably have four years of working, which means you're not a fresher out of college.

48:32

Speaker 2: When you go there they will look at your background, interview and say what you can do.

48:35

Speaker 2: So you could be at a CM's office helping the CM's office put together data from CM's rallies or information that could be used by the CM.

48:43

Speaker 2: Even the minister, for example, irmila Sitaraman, has an office where people go and take your office, work with her on her projects.

48:50

Speaker 2: So you have that option. Speaker 2: But again, in both cases you're committing to time.

48:54

Speaker 2: So you're saying one is you take two years off and put money into it.

48:57

Speaker 2: Second is you take a year off, convince your org and come back with it.

49:02

Speaker 2: The third way to do it, and if you're still serious but are not sure whether you should go in or not, is to probably do weekend work.

49:10

Speaker 2: So there is a lot of gig economy work, gig type of work in the sector.

49:15

Speaker 2: So I mean I'm helping one young girl whom I have known for a very long time.

49:20

Speaker 2: She's returned from the US, quit her job with Apple, doesn't want to do that, she wants to work in the space.

49:27

Speaker 2: So she said I want to spend some time but I can't give up a job.

49:31

Speaker 2: What should I do? Speaker 2: I said it's not volunteering, and when you say volunteering it is not going and feeding people volunteering or a technical side to understand the org function.

49:40

Speaker 2: So I'm trying to help her get a space with one of the org space close to her house where she can look at how her coding skillset or operation skillset can be used by the team.

49:49

Speaker 2: And she gets to do this at least once or twice. Speaker 2: I mean at least two days a week.

49:52

Speaker 2: She's trying Saturday, sunday maybe, and how far she'll go with that.

49:54

Speaker 2: But she said I will do that and some days in the evening.

49:58

Speaker 2: So that again gives you a sense of you keep your job, but to test it and say, ok, do I see myself doing it every day?

50:04

Speaker 2: Doing it on a weekend, and doing it every day is different.

50:07

Speaker 2: So you will also ask yourself and maybe it will tell you time or not time.

50:12

Speaker 2: So from that point of view, these are the ways to approach it, like I would look at it.

50:16

Speaker 2: Probably one more fourth and very radical and which I think is very important.

50:20

Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how many people can actually do it is basically take a year off and travel the country and be in the field.

50:26

Speaker 2: I would say that's a very adventurous thing to do. Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of students from American European universities who have worked with me in the sector.

50:34

Speaker 2: You know, choose to take a year off just to go visit another country and learn.

50:39

Speaker 2: I don't think we have that culture as yet in India, but, as you mean, you have other audiences, it's still not possible to do that.

50:44

Speaker 2: But that's the best way to look at. Speaker 2: One is, I think, exploring the space landscape.

50:48

Speaker 2: You see the country, you travel, you get to eat, see cultures, that you see superstitions, myths, and you also see sometimes the exaggeration of the like.

50:56

Speaker 2: You know it may be over exaggerated because the media is reporting on the bad case.

50:59

Speaker 2: When you see good ones and say, oh, you know what, this is not so bad. Speaker 2: So that's one and and and along with it, yeah, you get a change.

51:07

Speaker 3: These are I can add to I can just add to that last one that you're saying, because I know a lot of my colleagues or people have come to New York in Germany.

51:17

Speaker 3: It's like a very common thing. Speaker 3: You would, you know, after your graduation or after your school, you would just take a year off and go to some country.

51:24

Speaker 3: A lot of people choose to just go around the world and see different countries.

51:28

Speaker 3: A lot of people choose to get into social space and try to understand you know how it's looking like and then, based off of that, they choose what they want to do further.

51:39

Speaker 3: So I think it's a very good idea, like I personally would definitely recommend if it's possible, but it's a privilege thing to do, like, of course, as you mentioned.

51:48

Speaker 2: So, yeah, yeah, I mean it's not difficult, right?

51:51

Speaker 2: So I think, depending on your life choices. Speaker 2: One more thing I'd like to add I've also seen people, not necessarily young, not in the 25 30, I've also seen people in their mid 35 to 45.

52:01

Speaker 2: So that's also another bracket of people who actually are now beginning to have that midlife and transition thing.

52:07

Speaker 2: For them the risk taking is higher. Speaker 2: When you're younger you probably are not putting in that much of risk.

52:11

Speaker 2: It's okay, you take a year off, your parents will probably feed you and you can get back to work.

52:14

Speaker 2: But if you have a family, you know you have children, go to school and you have a loan to pay, then that decision will be tough.

52:19

Speaker 2: And that is where a little bit more of a structured part comes in, where you actually choose.

52:23

Speaker 2: You know like, for example, somebody wants a CEO position or somebody is some organization looking for a CEO hire.

52:30

Speaker 2: They need not be from the sector, it could be someone who has worked in strategy capacities, in organization.

52:37

Speaker 2: But when they come in they're expected to at least do enough field through the year to learn, because they probably have not many other people I'm also seeing in the sector coming back from overseas, which means the last 15, 20 years of their life they've not even been in India.

52:48

Speaker 2: They've lived abroad, right so used to a particular lifestyle.

52:52

Speaker 2: They come home, they may have visited their family. Speaker 2: I'm seeing that transition as well.

52:56

Speaker 2: So one is the 25 35 people who really early stage, make the decision, but also people in their midlife who reach out to make this decision, and many of them, quite a few of them, that have seen around like they take the risk, you know like they will speak to their spouse and say, okay, I'm going to take a year off and so.

53:13

Speaker 3: I mean, as you're saying, in terms of career progression. Speaker 3: I'm assuming that, again, all the positions are present, like depending on how much time you spent, and you can obviously progress the similar way as in corporate trade.

53:26

Speaker 2: So when you transition, the corporate experience is valued as this, as this is 70 or 80 years, doing something is valid, as the differential is how much of the social do you bring like zero to whatever like to spend, and that is where, if you're planning, so I think, advice I give people when thinking or more is expressed and consciously start doing.

53:46

Speaker 2: Let's say, one step, one project, one part time work.

53:48

Speaker 2: Let's say you go help a friend who's running an NGO, manages finance, help him set up a proper system to collect the invoicing, or so these are experiences right here you're just helping a friend, but you can build that slowly as you do it, so you know it's always more smoother transition.

54:05

Speaker 3: You mentioned earlier that you help a lot of people also hiring.

54:09

Speaker 3: Is this something that you like actively look for, and what are the others?

54:15

Speaker 2: No, I don't really. Speaker 2: I don't like too much of the hiring business but because I'm mentor to a few of the organizations that have supported, like the Nudge Foundation, I'm an impact advisor on the Nudge, so most of the hiring on the impact team the last round goes through me.

54:30

Speaker 2: Other than that, at NSR cell and I am Bangalore we do a lot of the screening for applications.

54:35

Speaker 2: In fact I this week we were doing women entrepreneurs, last week I was doing rural women entrepreneurs I do work with that kind of people so help them.

54:42

Speaker 2: It's not a I think it's not a conscious choice to do that, but people feel that you know you have an eye for picking up the right kind of person.

54:51

Speaker 2: So I think that support is required?

54:53

Speaker 3: What other skills that you would look at it typically?

54:57

Speaker 2: So see, most of the time when it is entrepreneurs sorry in the impact side, what we look for, I said, is one is your technical skills.

55:04

Speaker 2: Everybody has some technical skills that they break, whether it's a communication degree, whether it's an electronics degree.

55:09

Speaker 2: What is that you're bringing in? Speaker 2: So sometimes we have people who probably manage large teams and that's what they want to talk about.

55:14

Speaker 2: So look at what skills that you have, how you know, and I think very important is openness, because when you're coming into a sector that you have not planned or you don't know you've been studied, it's not your natural growth.

55:25

Speaker 2: Are you very rigid or not? Speaker 2: So the personality is very important.

55:28

Speaker 2: So we put, we do a lot of these situations testing.

55:30

Speaker 2: Give them, you know, work on role plays.

55:32

Speaker 2: I give them situations a lot of time to handle.

55:35

Speaker 2: Very often, when I'm doing assessments, we also we also give them a test before, like give them a study, overnight, work on it, come back.

55:42

Speaker 2: So you're testing, not for technical skills I'm given that technical is there.

55:46

Speaker 2: You're looking more for attitude and willingness and readiness, because it's also commitment, right.

55:50

Speaker 2: So I feel like a lot of people you know, you hire them.

55:53

Speaker 2: You also train and support them. Speaker 2: So for me it's a lot of emotional investment in these people.

55:58

Speaker 2: So it's like my students, only at least your students.

56:01

Speaker 2: They will remain your students. Speaker 2: They are grateful for that.

56:03

Speaker 2: Learning here. Speaker 2: People will just come, they'll learn, they disappear.

56:06

Speaker 2: I'm like, am I? Speaker 2: I spent six months training this person and he's I'm going somewhere else, which happens in Coptic.

56:13

Speaker 2: So I think that's the reason why I would say skill, sense what is there.

56:16

Speaker 2: You know, long term willingness to stay Technical is okay, but I think development understanding like it can give a very strong example to prove this point.

56:26

Speaker 2: I was recently hiring for a position and this person was a law, a law student who was applying and has worked in Dev, has done volunteering.

56:36

Speaker 2: But the very strong attitude that came through was that I am better off and these people are below me.

56:43

Speaker 2: So very, a very strong level of condescension that you know I'm coming in because I'm better off.

56:47

Speaker 2: Multiple times, you know, I tried. Speaker 2: I said maybe it's a, it's a legacy of something, is it coming through?

56:53

Speaker 2: And then you see that the candidate was really good, you know, would technically go, was good in methods, had manual spreadsheets, everything point and all that.

57:00

Speaker 2: But this was a big no for us.

57:02

Speaker 2: Like I said no, this is not going to work with you're going in, with, you know, dealing with people thinking I am better off then, then you probably are not, you know, ready for this.

57:10

Speaker 2: So a lot of humility and kindness, I think it comes through when you talk to people, you know, and without that I don't think the sector will ever accept a person.

57:21

Speaker 2: It may be very good, but you can't be here without humility.

57:23

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's like a given right, because, I mean, I think one of the reasons why you would want to get into this area would be because of because of what you see around you and you want to really contribute to something.

57:36

Speaker 3: Okay, I think we've had like this was like one of the most knowledgeable sessions I've had.

57:42

Speaker 3: I think I would like to close it with with your take on how it has been for you because, as you mentioned in the beginning, you know it was like a conscious choice that you made and you had to go through a lot of thinking and you know like convincing and all of that.

57:57

Speaker 3: How are you liking it now? Speaker 3: Like, what has your experience been?

58:02

Speaker 2: Yes, this is going to be a probably a shock for people who listen to this in the future, but you know I I don't like monotony in anything that I do.

58:11

Speaker 2: I'm very change oriented. Speaker 2: I love challenge and change and I think I've also I've also begun to reach the space in the sector and technique.

58:19

Speaker 2: But I feel like I think this is I've done this before, I've done this before, and then for me as a person that I have done this before comes I'm like, okay, what next?

58:27

Speaker 2: What next? Speaker 2: I think that's the trigger where I'm at, but I've been very, very satisfied.

58:32

Speaker 2: In fact, I have my own consulting practice, which is now three years old, and you know I'm there again.

58:37

Speaker 2: I don't have a large team that I've built, so we just just two of us, me and the co-founder, and I'm very, very clear that the reason I'm doing this because we like what we do together, we get people to help us on the project.

58:48

Speaker 2: But if at some stage, I feel like you know, somebody else should run this, I would more than be happy.

58:54

Speaker 2: So the sector is again so personality, wise, right.

58:57

Speaker 2: So I think, as a person, as I grew and the how I have seen life at many of this.

59:03

Speaker 2: I like this space. Speaker 2: I feel there is value. Speaker 2: But you know that, even if the teacher I was okay, so it's not like I didn't add value as an economic across, but same here.

59:12

Speaker 2: So I feel like I'm I'm doing okay, people like me, they call me, so I feel like there's some validation.

59:18

Speaker 2: But then again there is always that fundamental question.

59:20

Speaker 2: I've been in the sector for very long like, for example, I've done evaluated education, healthcare.

59:25

Speaker 2: I still see the same things we're repeating with very slow development is not a very dodgy process.

59:30

Speaker 2: I'm asking myself, you know, is there anything more?

59:33

Speaker 2: I'm very selfish that way. Speaker 2: I want to know what more is in it for me.

59:37

Speaker 2: So, yeah, maybe you know, I don't know, maybe the next time we speak I'd probably be on a new career.

59:43

Speaker 3: I'm going to ask one more question. Speaker 3: Feel free not to answer, but they say that if you if this question is asked from you and you can answer it clearly, then basically it kind of defines a lot of things, and so we would ask if you pass away, like tomorrow, and somebody says that you know, are you satisfied with your life, what would you say?

1:00:01

Speaker 3: So, honestly, I've asked this question on multiple stages in my life.

1:00:04

Speaker 2: you know where I think we there was one experience where we had right and obituary of self training program that I was part of.

1:00:13

Speaker 2: So for me the answer is that I would be very satisfied. Speaker 2: If I'm not, that, you know because I think I've done enough, not that I have.

1:00:20

Speaker 2: I have done things I like, the way I liked it and to the best of my ability.

1:00:25

Speaker 2: I'm not saying I've been a great, I've done my job very well.

1:00:28

Speaker 2: I could have done better, but I'm just saying that I'm very satisfied with my life.

1:00:32

Speaker 2: I'm not saying I've been great and I've done my job very well. Speaker 2: I could have done better, but I'm super, super happy with where I am.

1:00:38

Speaker 2: So I'm like it's okay if all of this just drops tomorrow.

1:00:43

Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:00:45

Speaker 3: So be. Speaker 3: I'm so happy for you really, and actually, to be honest, I was expecting this answer because I know that you basically done what you wanted to do and and you are still doing it and I hope you have like an amazing, amazing, amazing future and you can create much more difference, please.

1:01:02

Speaker 3: Thank you so much, ma'am, for your time. Speaker 3: It was lovely talking to you.

1:01:05

Speaker 2: Same here. Speaker 2: Thank you so much and I hope we will be touching even after this podcast.

1:01:10

Speaker 2: We will be for sure. Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, bye, bye, bye.