0:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the Founder and Publisher

0:08

of Yoffy Press in Atlanta,

0:11

Georgia. This is a podcast where

0:11

we talk to artists about their

0:14

journey, how they got where they

0:14

are, what right and wrong turns

0:18

they made along the way and

0:18

where they're heading next.

0:28

Alec Soth is a photographer born

0:28

and based in Minneapolis,

0:31

Minnesota. He's published over

0:31

25 books, including Sleeping by

0:35

the Mississippi, Niagara, Broken

0:35

Manual, Songbook, I Know How

0:40

Furiously Your Heart Is Beating,

0:40

and A Pound of Pictures. Soth

0:44

has had over 50 solo

0:44

exhibitions, including survey

0:47

shows organized by Jeu de Paume

0:47

in Paris, the Walker Art Center

0:51

in Minnesota, and Media Space in

0:51

London. Soth has been the

0:55

recipient of numerous

0:55

fellowships and awards,

0:57

including the Guggenheim

0:57

Fellowship. In 2008 Soth created

1:02

Little Brown Mushroom, a

1:02

multimedia enterprise focused on

1:05

visual storytelling. Soth is

1:05

represented by Sean Kelly in New

1:09

York, Weinstein Hammons gallery

1:09

in Minneapolis, Fraenkel gallery

1:13

in San Francisco, Loock gallery

1:13

in Berlin, and is a member of

1:17

Magnum photos, please welcome

1:17

Alec Soth to the podcast.

1:28

Hello

1:29

I figured it out.

1:30

First try.

1:32

Alright, here we go.

1:33

How's it going?

1:34

Good.

1:35

So we've met

1:35

Yes, we have met. Yes, we had. I

1:40

don't know if you'd remember.

1:40

But we had like coffee or

1:42

breakfast in Athens. I remember

1:42

the muffin being really

1:47

delicious. Not so much what we

1:47

talked about, but food, it

1:49

usually sticks with me.

1:52

I don't know if

1:52

that's a compliment. (laughs)

1:55

It's not just you, it happens with everyone. Um, and then...

1:59

And, do you prefer Jennifer or Jen?

2:01

Jennifer?

2:02

Okay, phew. Well,

2:02

there's, there's actually,

2:06

there's a professional person in

2:06

my life, who I would always

2:10

address Jennifer. And then I

2:10

realized, like, I was the only

2:13

person in the world that called

2:13

her that, you know, so...

2:16

Most people do

2:16

it the other way. Yeah. And I

2:19

grew up in Richmond, Virginia,

2:19

and lived there my whole life.

2:23

So I like didn't meet a lot of

2:23

new people. You know, like the

2:26

people I went to elementary

2:26

school with were the people I

2:28

went to high school with. And

2:28

everyone just always called me,

2:31

Jennifer. And a couple times, if

2:31

someone would come over and call

2:34

me Jen or Jenny, my mom would

2:34

yell at them. And say, that's

2:37

not what we named her. And so

2:37

when I went to college, which

2:41

was in the north, everyone

2:41

shortens everything. And so I

2:46

would introduce myself as

2:46

Jennifer and some I'm like, Oh,

2:48

I'm Jennifer. And someone would

2:48

say, Oh, Hi, Jen. And I'd say

2:51

Nifer. And then people started

2:51

calling me Nifer.

2:55

Ah!

2:55

That was always

2:55

hard to shake. I was like, this

3:00

is really going in the wrong

3:00

direction. But thanks for

3:03

asking. So I hadn't originally

3:03

planned to start the podcast

3:08

this way. But I remembered about

3:08

20 minutes ago, that Aaron

3:13

Schumann wrote a bunch of stuff

3:13

for Gathered Leaves for the back

3:18

of those cards...

3:19

Yeah, absolutely.

3:19

And I

3:19

interviewed him probably like

3:20

Yeah, he is

3:20

fantastic.

3:22

six months ago for the podcast.

3:22

And I never met him before or

3:26

never spoken to him and like,

3:26

fell in love with him, like

3:30

declared him in the moment to be

3:30

my best friend.

3:35

I was like, I'm not really giving you a chance to consent on this, this is just

3:37

the dynamic of our situation.

3:41

(laughs) These days, it's a

3:41

little tough, but...

3:46

It is, it is, it is. But I was

3:46

curious, like what I loved about

3:47

Concensus is an important word. (laughs) reading or rereading at this

3:51

point, but I guess the first

3:55

time I read it, I didn't know

3:55

Aaron. And so rereading them 20

4:00

minutes ago was like these

4:00

anecdotes and these little

4:04

snippets of conversations. And I

4:04

love the compilation of random

4:09

sentences from emails from 2004

4:09

to 2015. And so it was like, I

4:13

got a really good sense of Aaron

4:13

and of you through reading that

4:18

which felt really special. So

4:18

I'm curious how you've obviously

4:23

had a relationship with him for

4:23

a very long time. And I wanted

4:28

to know more about how that

4:28

started. And kind of what the

4:32

dynamic is.

4:33

Yeah. Well, I mean,

4:33

one thing to know about me is

4:37

that I have an awful memory.

4:37

And, oh, I definitely don't

4:42

remember which muffin I had. And

4:42

all of the past is murky. So I

4:51

don't really know how it started

4:51

with Aaron. I mean, way back in

4:56

the day I was I was big into

4:56

blogging. And, and so my sense

5:04

is that he, I don't know if he

5:04

was a blogger, but he was in

5:08

that universe of people. And,

5:08

you know, and the other thing is

5:15

that I, you know, I live in

5:15

Minnesota, so I'm not in, you

5:18

know, New York or London or

5:18

whatever. So it was I, I think

5:23

it was a largely email

5:23

relationship for a long time.

5:28

And then we've done various

5:28

events over the years. And, I

5:32

mean, he is, you know, as you

5:32

know, an esteemed photographer,

5:36

and educator and all that stuff.

5:36

So it's kind of weird that he's

5:41

like, my personal biographer, at

5:41

this point. (laughs)

5:44

He is, I know! (laughs)

5:45

He knows more about

5:45

me than I know about myself,

5:49

because I share the memory.

5:49

Exactly. So but it's really it's

5:54

fantastic and it's fantastic to

5:54

have that be a photographer. So

5:58

someone who really understands

5:58

what we're talking about.

6:01

Right? Yeah,

6:01

he's just such a delight. Oh, my

6:05

gosh.

6:06

By the way, are we in

6:06

it now? Is this like, are we

6:08

doing the podcast?

6:09

Oh, yeah, it's all fair game now. (laughs)

6:10

(Laughs) Okay, so

6:10

you've declared your love for

6:14

Aaron, live?

6:15

Yes. Okay. Yes.

6:16

You're not editing that out?

6:18

No, no, no.

6:19

Do you edit these things?

6:21

I do, yes. But I

6:21

edit them myself. So I try not

6:24

to say too many stupid things

6:24

that I have to later cut out.

6:30

It's the consent

6:30

thing is going out for sure.

6:32

(Laughs) I don't

6:32

know, I don't know, we just

6:32

(laughs) brought it up again and I'm not

6:34

that great of an audio editor.

6:37

So I'll have to leave it on.

6:37

Yeah, we..., anyway, he's

6:42

wonderful. You also agree, and,

6:42

and he is just like such a

6:48

thoughtful person. And like you

6:48

said him being a photographer,

6:55

it's a wonderful dynamic. I

6:55

really, really, really enjoyed

6:58

reading those pieces.

7:00

Oh, that's great.

7:01

That was exciting.

7:01

Yeah, that's, that's

7:01

actually a good source of

7:04

information. I forget about

7:04

those cards. And recently, I had

7:09

to provide info to a writer and

7:09

that is a great source. I should

7:14

have provided that.

7:15

Yeah, you should have just given the writer Aaron's number.

7:18

(Laughs) Exactly,

7:18

yeah, or just had the camera off

7:22

and have Aaron do this for me.

7:24

Exactly. So I

7:24

want to talk mostly about your

7:29

new work. Because that's the

7:29

exciting stuff that you have

7:34

coming out. And I've read a

7:34

bunch about it. And looked

7:36

through it...

7:36

You've probably haven't seen that much...

7:39

Not in person at all,

7:40

Sorry we didn't give

7:40

you a book in time. It's, you

7:43

know, these global shipping

7:43

problems, but...

7:45

I am very

7:45

familiar with global shipping

7:48

problems with books right now.

7:48

It's a, yeah, troubling. But,

7:54

but I was also reading a bunch

7:54

of interviews that you've done

7:56

in the past. And over time,

7:56

you've moved from being more

8:00

focused on storytelling, and the

8:00

narrative to more of like, kind

8:04

of a stream of consciousness

8:04

maybe approach to making work.

8:08

And it seems to me that A Pound

8:08

of Pictures, this new project is

8:14

the farthest kind of on that

8:14

spectrum of going into that. So

8:20

how do you, yeah, do you agree?

8:20

How do you feel about that?

8:22

What's your take?

8:25

I don't necessarily

8:25

agree. I mean, I think what

8:29

happens is, is I mean, I see it

8:29

on a spectrum, like I see

8:33

narrative on a spectrum, and,

8:33

and I just feel like it's the

8:38

seesaw, and I just, like, keep

8:38

going back and forth. And, and,

8:44

and I never know if I'm in the

8:44

sweet spot. And it's kind of

8:49

it's also related to

8:49

accessibility. And I'm always

8:55

struggling with how accessible I

8:55

should make my work, you know,

8:59

because I like that about

8:59

photography. But at the same

9:03

time, I want to challenge myself

9:03

and I want to challenge other

9:07

people. I don't want it to be

9:07

too easy. So I'm, I'm always

9:11

like back and forth between

9:11

things that are more

9:14

experimental and more narrative,

9:14

I guess. And this particular

9:20

project took so many different

9:20

turns. In fact, and you would

9:29

know this, but it was a totally

9:29

narrative project, in the sense

9:35

that it was to be published

9:35

originally as a diary. Ah, yeah,

9:43

so I was gonna like chronicle

9:43

the making of the pictures. The

9:50

text was gonna be right next to

9:50

the images and then eventually I

9:54

abandoned that.

9:56

Why?

9:59

The full backstory is

9:59

that this started as a totally

10:04

different project, which was,

10:04

which was about Abraham

10:11

Lincoln's funeral train, and I

10:11

was following the route of his

10:14

train. And that was going to be,

10:14

I guess, you know, in the spirit

10:19

of something like Sleeping by

10:19

the Mississippi following a path

10:23

and making work along it. Except

10:23

that I had more constraints to

10:28

it, I was gonna photograph only

10:28

in a certain time of day, and a

10:31

certain elevation and all these

10:31

rules. And it all felt stifling

10:36

in the end and enforced, and I

10:36

abandon that. And then I started

10:43

a new project from the ashes of

10:43

that. And, and that was actually

10:50

called A Box of Pictures. And

10:50

the idea was, that it was almost

10:57

gonna be like, my midlife book

10:57

of essays reflecting on the

11:04

medium. You know, it seemed

11:04

people like Robert Adams and

11:07

Stephen Shore, write these

11:07

books, these essay books, and

11:13

I've had a desire to do

11:13

something like that, like I had

11:17

earned enough credibility to

11:17

talk about the medium. And I was

11:21

going to do it that way. And in

11:21

terms of publishing the book,

11:26

with Michael Mack, we talked

11:26

about this diary, and then maybe

11:32

there would be a separate book,

11:32

which would just be like, the

11:35

strongest pictures, so you could

11:35

see them on their own. But that

11:39

diary book was going to have

11:39

hundreds of photographs, and

11:42

they would be smaller, tons of

11:42

text. And then the pandemic hit.

11:50

And suddenly, you know, there

11:50

was like, a year, it was like a

11:54

diary, and then a year, and then

11:54

I was gonna start again. But it

12:00

how was I gonna acknowledge the

12:00

pandemic, this big gap,

12:03

everything that had happened, it

12:03

just, like, didn't make sense

12:06

anymore. And so much had

12:06

happened, obviously, during the

12:09

year, besides the pandemic. You

12:09

know, living in Minneapolis,

12:14

Black Lives Matter, like all

12:14

this stuff. And it just seemed

12:17

kind of ludicrous. And I

12:17

couldn't solve that problem. So

12:22

then I had to kind of reboot

12:22

again. And then it became much

12:28

less narrative, though at the

12:28

back of the book, there are

12:35

these notes to a number of the

12:35

photographs, much like there are

12:40

in Sleeping by the Mississippi

12:40

and Niagara my first two books,

12:44

which, which shows that tension,

12:44

I always have like, to tell the

12:49

story not to tell the story. And

12:49

then I'm always like, oh, hide

12:52

it in the back. That's my

12:52

solution.

12:57

Its worked. (laughs)

12:58

Well, it is one way

12:58

to go about it. And it's

13:04

interesting to think of it in

13:04

exhibition terms. Because like,

13:07

the strategy that I've liked

13:07

using the most there is, is not

13:13

wall label text, but a sheet of

13:13

paper that someone can carry

13:18

around with them if they want to.

13:20

Okay, yeah.

13:23

So that ideally, you

13:23

can experience the work without

13:26

that. And it's just an it's an

13:26

added layer for those people

13:30

that that want it or, and want

13:30

to go deeper, I guess? Yeah.

13:36

When you'd said

13:36

in the short film about the work

13:38

that's on the gallery sites, you

13:38

say that, like part of your

13:41

practice is to pay attention to

13:41

your own attention. And which is

13:48

interesting, because to me, so I

13:48

tried to do these meditation

13:53

apps very unsuccessfully, for

13:53

the most part, but that's what

13:57

they're always saying is pay

13:57

attention to your own attention.

14:00

And when I have heard you speak

14:00

a couple of times years ago, and

14:04

you talk about that you had this

14:04

kind of transformational

14:07

meditative experience that made

14:07

you question how you approach

14:10

photography and why you make it.

14:10

So how would you say..., was

14:16

that kind of the shift? Where

14:16

you shifted from maybe trying to

14:22

tell a story to looking at

14:22

looking?

14:27

That's a really,

14:27

that's a really insightful

14:30

question. And and I haven't

14:30

really, you know, talked about

14:35

this new work, so I don't have a

14:35

snappy answer to that, so I have

14:40

to reflect on it. I do think...,

14:40

so what happened with that

14:48

meditation experience that

14:48

really shook up my whole

14:52

creative process during that

14:52

period of time for sure. And

14:56

that actually became really non

14:56

narrative, I would say. Maybe

15:01

that was the furthest reach. And

15:01

then And then...

15:07

and what work

15:07

would you say, represented that

15:11

like, what kind of...

15:12

I think the furthest

15:12

reach was work that you've never

15:15

seen, which is this work I did

15:15

in this, I bought this, this

15:23

this abandoned farmhouse and I

15:23

did all this work out there, a

15:27

lot of it was not even

15:27

photographic. Some of it was

15:30

like, I was making musical

15:30

instruments out of the house and

15:34

performing it. And I was like,

15:34

building sculptures on the

15:38

property. And, and I, I didn't

15:38

even feel the need to document

15:44

most of it. And because it,

15:44

because in that state of mind, I

15:50

was just going with the flow.

15:50

And it was wonderful. And I was

15:55

super happy, and everything's

15:55

great. The problem was...

15:58

Your galleries

15:58

were like, uh, Excuse me?

16:01

(laugh)

16:01

Yeah. Yeah, it's

16:01

funny, because my galleries were

16:06

actually supportive, amazingly,

16:06

but, um,

16:11

They're like, he's going through something.

16:12

(Laughs) Right. But

16:12

for myself, I've I felt, since I

16:17

felt no need to share it. It was

16:17

almost like its own meditation

16:22

practice. Like, what's the

16:22

point? And, and so it was, it

16:28

was a little bit of a crisis is

16:28

a strong word, but I thought, I

16:34

reached like a fork in the road,

16:34

where it's like, well, either I

16:37

keep going that way and I'm

16:37

basically kind of retired as an

16:42

artist in the financial sense,

16:42

or I continue to make a living.

16:49

And I have to kind of pull back

16:49

into and take this back into

16:53

photography. And that's what I

16:53

did. And I found my way back to

16:59

making pictures again. But the

16:59

further I went in that

17:04

photographic path, the further

17:04

away I got from that other state

17:08

of mind, because they are a

17:08

little bit contradictory. And,

17:13

and I've always felt this way, I

17:13

feel that that this desire, you

17:18

know, to, like pin down

17:18

experience is just like,

17:20

fundamentally opposed to living

17:20

in the moment.

17:24

Yes, yes. That

17:24

is so true.

17:27

And, and, and this

17:27

is, this is annoying, and it's

17:33

also a bit of a cliche, but but

17:33

I find that my photographic work

17:39

is stronger when I struggle,

17:39

just a fact for me, and God

17:52

knows I've been struggling. So

17:52

I'm not in that blissful state

17:57

of mind, which is almost it

17:57

required, almost like monastic

18:01

devotion. So I'm in a very

18:01

different place, but long

18:06

winded, I think I have, in fact,

18:06

applied some of what I learned

18:14

to my photographic practice, and

18:14

I haven't even thought of it

18:17

exactly in those terms. But, but

18:17

it's true. And, and in the same

18:25

way that I said that, like

18:25

narrative is on a spectrum, I

18:29

think that this this kind of

18:29

mindfulness, or whatever you

18:33

call it, is on a spectrum. And,

18:33

and certainly applying that to

18:39

my photographic practice is a

18:39

good thing. It's just taking it

18:43

all the way, then it becomes no

18:43

point and makes the pictures

18:48

untenable.

18:49

Do you think

18:49

that it applies to your portrait

18:52

making practice because I read

18:52

like early on, you're kind of

18:55

more assertive, maybe. And now

18:55

you're more observant, just kind

19:01

of letting it happen.

19:02

Yes, and again, I I

19:02

fluctuate. Because one of the

19:07

things during that time when I

19:07

was really concerned with those

19:11

issues, I stopped doing

19:11

editorial work. And because

19:16

editorial work, you have to get

19:16

the picture, right. You can't go

19:21

back to the editor and say,

19:21

like, well, I felt like I was

19:23

imposing my will.You are

19:23

imposing your will.

19:29

Thats what they're paying you for.

19:30

Yeah, so the moment I

19:30

started doing that, that muscle

19:35

was activated. And I'm just I'm

19:35

always in a bit of a wrestling

19:41

match with the with the ethics

19:41

of portraiture for sure. Yeah.

19:46

How do you

19:46

resolve that for yourself?

19:49

I don't I don't think

19:49

it can be resolved. I think you

19:56

know, I think there's always

19:56

well, I should say that at the

20:00

point of taking the picture, I

20:00

don't have a problem with it.

20:06

Because I'm always getting

20:06

consent.

20:09

I was gonna say,

20:09

that is an important part. I

20:13

would like the record to say

20:13

that I agree that consent is

20:17

really important in all cases,

20:17

even best friendships.

20:23

It's actually not

20:23

entirely true. Also, I should

20:25

say that sometimes people are

20:25

further away, whatever. But, but

20:30

if it's a true portrait, you

20:30

know, there's consent involved.

20:35

And, and very often, most often,

20:35

it's a positive experience for

20:41

the person I'm photographing.

20:41

The problem comes later, the

20:46

putting it out into the world

20:46

and selling it.

20:51

Is it because

20:51

you feel that that person just

20:53

doesn't understand, in the

20:53

moment when they're agreeing to

20:57

have their picture made, they

20:57

don't fully grasp what the full

21:02

trajectory of this will look

21:02

like?

21:04

Absolutely. Because

21:04

just almost nobody has the

21:08

context for fine art photography

21:08

as we know it. And you can

21:13

explain it to them, but they

21:13

don't really get it.

21:16

You're like, No,

21:16

I'm really famous. I'm gonna be

21:20

everywhere. (laughs)

21:22

(Laughs) And, of

21:22

course, the the thing is that,

21:26

like, you know, 99% of the time,

21:26

the picture ends up nowhere. And

21:31

it's, and then that sense, it's,

21:31

that's the easier part of

21:34

Yeah, I understand that. What?

21:34

What image from this body of

21:35

editorial photography is like,

21:35

it's gonna be in this magazine,

21:40

etc, etc. So for myself, it's

21:40

like, well, it may end up on a

21:44

gallery wall. And then like,

21:44

what's a gallery, then I'm like

21:49

It's different than a museum,

21:49

and it's for sale, and it's just

21:53

like, no one understands. And

21:53

with my last project, I did

21:58

explain all of that in advance

21:58

of the photoshoot. So because

22:02

they were set up sessions, and

22:02

so the person could research me,

22:07

so like, everything could be

22:07

known. And then we're, like,

22:11

done with that part of the

22:11

conversation. You can't just on

22:16

the fly, when you're like,

22:16

driving around taking pictures,

22:20

it's just too hard. And so I

22:20

just, yeah, there's an ethical

22:25

issue with that. And, and even

22:25

when people give full consent,

22:29

and all of that they, there can

22:29

be a change of mind later,

22:34

because, oh, I didn't think I

22:34

was going to look like that or

22:38

what have you. So.... work, left the deepest imprint

22:45

or kind of stayed with you the

22:49

most and why? I mean, you said

22:49

that you included notes on some

22:54

of the images in the book. Is

22:54

there one or two that just

22:57

really stick with you?

23:03

It's, it's, it's evolving,

23:03

because now what's happening is

23:07

that I'm, I'm experiencing other

23:07

people's responses. And that's

23:12

shaping my own experience. And,

23:12

and my bad memory of the actual

23:19

picture taking is beginning to

23:19

drift away a little bit. But a

23:28

real a real, a favorite picture

23:28

is there's this photograph of a

23:37

woman with flowers. And she's

23:37

sitting on the ground. And this

23:42

is in Oklahoma, in Tulsa. And it

23:42

was just a magical experience

23:51

the making of this picture. It

23:51

came after a time period where I

23:58

was really, really struggling.

23:58

This is like once the world

24:04

opened up again, I want to say

24:04

the pandemic ended. But when I

24:07

was able to travel again, I

24:07

really struggled.

24:11

Why, in what way?

24:13

Yeah, maybe we should

24:13

talk about that. Because, well,

24:20

I do think it's it was it's,

24:20

it's to me now fundamentally,

24:26

what I was, what this work is,

24:26

is my own neuroticism and

24:35

getting away from it. That's

24:35

this like meditation element.

24:40

And it's coming back to

24:40

photography and to seeing and

24:46

remembering how to do that over

24:46

and over again. And to see like

24:51

a beginner or like a beginning

24:51

photography student, and to try

24:55

to get to that place, which is

24:55

why...

24:58

Because you were

24:58

kind of out of practice of it

25:03

Well, because,` so in

25:03

wanting to write this, these

25:03

or...? essays on photography, I want, I

25:07

want to speak positively about

25:12

the medium like I, whenever I

25:12

lecture, I try to check myself

25:17

so I don't sound too jaded,

25:17

because it's really easy to

25:22

sound jaded. And you can say

25:22

there are too me pictures in the

25:27

world, Instagram is ruining

25:27

everything, whatever. And, and

25:32

then you realize that like,

25:32

photo students, they've just had

25:37

their first experience in the

25:37

darkroom, it's like, magical,

25:37

Just this pure love.

25:41

they're not worried about too

25:41

many pictures or whatever you

25:46

like, they're loving it. And

25:46

that's what it's about, is that

25:51

place and, and I think, when

25:51

photography is great for myself,

25:56

all that falls away. And I'm in

25:56

that mindset. And so for me,

26:01

what I'm trying to teach others

26:01

is the thing I'm continually

26:06

trying to teach myself is

26:06

getting to that place.

26:14

Pure love, being in the moment.

26:14

And, and, and using the medium

26:20

to sort of feel alive. And, and

26:20

what happened with the pandemic

26:27

is that, you know, I became

26:27

closed down in my little bubble,

26:33

it's all thinking in my head.

26:33

And, and a lot of it about these

26:40

socio political issues and

26:40

economic issues, racial issues,

26:45

everything. And so there's like,

26:45

swirl of stuff going on in my

26:49

head. And then I go back out in

26:49

the world, and it's like, oh, I

26:53

can't take that picture. Why

26:53

would I take that picture? The

26:57

world doesn't need to see that.

26:57

You know, it's like, all that

26:59

stuff. And I had a breakdown. I

26:59

mean, I like completely fell

27:04

apart. And. And then I've, I've

27:04

worked my way out of it, and we

27:11

can talk about that. But on that

27:11

trip, I took that picture of

27:17

that woman, which is, you know,

27:17

she may or may not be homeless,

27:22

I don't know. She's gorgeous.

27:22

And her face, I mean, there's

27:30

just like a beautific quality to

27:30

her face. And she's loving being

27:35

with these flowers. And that's

27:35

okay, like, I could enjoy that.

27:41

And the picture just came

27:41

together. It's not staged, it

27:47

wouldn't be bad if it were

27:47

staged, but it wasn't. And it

27:52

fell together in this beautiful

27:52

way. Looks like a Jeff Wall

27:55

picture and that just happened.

27:55

And as I was taking it, I was

28:03

like, Oh, my God, this is like,

28:03

so like, I couldn't believe it.

28:08

So it was that kind of

28:08

experience and it was, yeah, it

28:12

was. It made me feel good about

28:12

the medium again, like the

28:15

putting it out in the world and

28:15

then selling it for a bunch of

28:17

money. Do I feel great about

28:17

that? I don't know. You know,

28:21

not necessarily.

28:22

But in that

28:22

moment, it kind of all came

28:25

together in the positive ways

28:25

that you love.

28:28

Absolutely, yeah.

28:29

And you said you

28:29

had this breakdown, you worked

28:32

your way out of it. What does

28:32

that mean?

28:36

Yeah, so on that

28:36

particular trip, I went alone.

28:43

I, I mentioned that I would

28:43

travel with young people. And

28:48

that became a regular part of

28:48

this project. But sometimes I

28:51

travel alone. And for that first

28:51

trip, I needed to be alone.

28:55

Because I was in my head so

28:55

much. And so I went to Michigan,

29:03

and...

29:04

How are you

29:04

picking the places? You were off

29:08

the Lincoln project...

29:09

Yeah, it was off the

29:09

Lincoln path, but but I would

29:12

often follow a part of that

29:12

route and, and I would go to

29:19

Springfield, Illinois. And

29:19

anyway, how did I end up there?

29:25

Like what was I on about? I

29:25

don't entirely remember what

29:32

the, again, the bad memory, just

29:32

something took me that way.

29:37

Okay, I guess and I guess I did

29:37

have this desire to maybe

29:48

explore once again, the Niagara

29:48

region because because a part of

29:55

this work was also exploring my

29:55

past work and revisiting it with

30:00

new eyes. And I was kind of

30:00

thinking about heading that way,

30:04

but Canada was closed. Anyway,

30:04

I'm in Michigan and I just, I

30:15

just couldn't do it. I just like

30:15

couldn't take a picture and and

30:22

I kind of had a breakdown and

30:22

and then I decided I was going

30:30

to go home but I thought well

30:30

instead I'll like go to some,

30:36

like rural place and so I went

30:36

on Airbnb and I found a llama

30:41

farm. (laughs)

30:43

As you do, right?

30:45

Which I thought was

30:45

gonna be really bucolic, turns

30:49

out was like right next to the freeway.

30:52

I've had similar

30:52

high aspirations for unique

30:56

Airbnbs that turned out

30:56

differently.

31:00

It was perfectly

31:00

nice, you know. If those llama

31:03

farmers hear this, perfectly

31:03

nice, but it didn't...

31:06

Yeah, you gave it a good review.

31:07

Yeah, but it didn't

31:07

restore my soul. And then I was

31:14

like, fuck it, I'll just, I'll

31:14

just go home. And then I had

31:21

this other thought, which was,

31:21

well, maybe I should just go

31:26

south. Because, you know, always

31:26

in the north, there's like this

31:33

dark, there is this darkness.

31:33

And, and I thought I'll go to

31:38

Memphis in particular because

31:38

I've always had good luck there.

31:44

And it's like cliche and stupid

31:44

as it is Eggleston-Ville, um, it

31:50

works. It's worked for me, so

31:50

I'll go. And I went there. And

31:57

before taking any pictures, I

31:57

thought I was thinking about

32:01

Eggleston. And I thought, Ah,

32:01

I'll visit the Eggleston trust,

32:07

and I'll visit Winston

32:07

Eggleston. So I reached out to

32:11

him. And he's someone that I

32:11

have encountered. I didn't know

32:12

He's not human. (laughs)

32:15

him well. But, I had just a

32:15

fantastic time talking to him

32:22

about all sorts of things in

32:22

life and, and the lockdown and

32:27

all of that. But I was also, you

32:27

know, able to ask him questions

32:31

about his dad, and in particular

32:31

about, about his dad's approach

32:38

to photography, which to me

32:38

always seemed like, the not

32:44

neurotic, like, I always had the

32:44

sense that Eggleston didn't

32:51

worry about any ethical issues

32:51

or, you know, just wasn't

32:55

concerned about how his pictures

32:55

lived in the world. And so I

33:01

asked Winston about this. And

33:01

like I said, Does your dad ever

33:07

have like, you know, sort of any

33:07

self doubt? And he was just

33:13

like, Nope. Not

33:18

Yeah, and he said, like, you

33:18

know, basically every picture he

33:25

takes he thinks is good, which

33:25

is the, the spirit of the

33:30

Democratic Forest, which is this

33:30

book that I've, you know, been

33:36

contemplating my whole

33:36

photographic career. And, and I

33:42

thought, Well, I'm just gonna

33:42

spend the day like, pretending

33:46

I'm that way. And kind of

33:46

pretending I'm Eggleston. And

33:52

driving around Memphis...

33:53

Like the fake it till you make it? Yeah, fake it till you make it.

33:54

And I went to this Buddhist

33:59

temple, which is something I

33:59

started doing a lot. Maybe it

34:04

was right around that time

34:04

actually, because of that

34:08

Because you were

34:08

just, you were in your own way.

34:08

experience. But but there are

34:08

Buddhist temples everywhere.

34:13

It's fascinating if you if you

34:13

Google, yeah, they're like,

34:17

there will be like 15 in a state

34:17

and there'll be in like rural

34:22

areas, they're everywhere. And

34:22

so there's this one right in the

34:27

middle of Memphis. And I went

34:27

there and there was there was

34:32

this Buddha with all this, like,

34:32

kind of shabby stuff around. It

34:37

looked like an Eggleston picture

34:37

and I and I loved it I because I

34:43

was making an Eggleston picture,

34:43

but it was also about not, you

34:48

know thinking too much and it

34:48

and it kind of broke me open.

34:53

And I took more pictures around

34:53

Memphis. A number of which

34:57

aren't in the book, but that I

34:57

loved taking and the experience

35:02

was great. And that sort of

35:02

liberated me once again.

35:10

Yeah, I was totally in my own

35:10

way. I didn't photograph people,

35:14

yet. But at least I was exposing

35:14

film like I wasn't even doing

35:20

that before. Ah, and then yeah,

35:20

and then I worked my way down,

35:26

you know, further south. And

35:26

then I was back at it again.

35:32

Was the woman with the flowers, the first portrait maybe?

35:36

Maybe. That'd be

35:36

good.

35:38

Lets just say it was.

35:39

Yeah, good for the narrative.

35:40

Yeah, I think so.

35:41

(Laighs) Yeah, I

35:41

should, I should revisit how

35:48

everything played out. Because

35:48

this is the funny thing is you

35:51

make up stories and, and then

35:51

over time, they become real in

35:55

your own memory. So because I, I

35:55

mean, what's, what's really

36:01

interesting is that this work is

36:01

actually very similar in spirit

36:07

to Sleeping by the Mississippi,

36:07

because you might know this, but

36:12

that project was something else

36:12

before it. And it was called

36:16

From Here to There. And the idea

36:16

was that one picture led to the

36:19

next and, and then, and it had a

36:19

diary. And I have this diary.

36:26

And, in fact, I, in the first

36:26

iteration of it, I exhibited the

36:31

work with this diary next to it.

36:31

And, and then later, I changed

36:37

it to Sleeping by the

36:37

Mississippi, and, and kind of

36:41

attached that structure to it.

36:41

I've, you know, I've since gone

36:46

back and read that diary. And I,

36:46

like, I have stuff wrong, that

36:51

I've said about Sleeping by the

36:51

Mississippi for years. And it

36:56

doesn't really matter. But

36:56

that's what happens.

36:59

Right? No, for

36:59

sure. So, um, you've been doing

37:04

these live performances on

37:04

YouTube, where you're kind of

37:09

like a photo DJ, with found

37:09

photos? How does that connect

37:15

with the Pound of Pictures work

37:15

and what made you want to expand

37:19

the creative process in that way?

37:22

Jennifer, you've done

37:22

excellent research for this.

37:25

Awww, thank you.

37:25

Yeah. It's, it's

37:25

really nice. And, and this

37:29

particular topic is very hard to

37:29

talk about, because whenever I

37:35

try to talk about this

37:35

performance work, no one gets

37:40

it. And understandably, you kind

37:40

of have to see it to get it

37:45

because it's, I say it's like

37:45

DJing photos, but it's not.

37:50

It's, it's, I think, more

37:50

structured than that. But it's,

37:55

it's incredibly linked to this

37:55

project. So what happened was

38:01

pre pandemic, I was collecting

38:01

snapshots as a part of A Pound

38:06

of Pictures. And they weren't to

38:06

be used in the, in the final

38:12

work itself, although they might

38:12

have been used in the diary

38:17

version of it. But, but this was

38:17

part of my process is collecting

38:23

these pictures. And then what

38:23

happened was, I got approached

38:28

by someone here locally in

38:28

Minnesota about doing something

38:33

performative, basically, and

38:33

with, with a musician, and a

38:39

couple of things came together.

38:39

So I had that collection of

38:44

snapshots, but also simultaneous

38:44

to that, I've been working on my

38:50

lecture technique, basically.

38:50

Because I've given so many

38:55

lectures, that over the years,

38:55

I've wanted to mix it up, and,

39:00

and I've employed like chance

39:00

encounters. And, and I started

39:06

developing multiple lectures so

39:06

that I could, on a whim, go a

39:11

different direction with a

39:11

lecture. And then, most

39:16

recently, I developed a way of

39:16

showing books and photographs

39:21

live on the screen, so it wasn't

39:21

a PDF, so that I can really be

39:27

flexible and talk about

39:27

different things. And, and I had

39:32

done one of these lectures here

39:32

in Minneapolis, and it worked

39:37

out well. So I thought, well,

39:37

maybe I could use that technique

39:43

and use these found photos and

39:43

do something. And so then she

39:48

And everyone was looking at

39:48

screens, everyone was looking

39:48

asked who I wanted to work with,

39:48

and and I suggested this guy

39:54

Dave King who's a legendary

39:54

drummer, but, but uh, Also from

39:59

Minnesota, and my age, so it

39:59

seemed like it would work that

40:04

we could be in the same place

40:04

because I, this is not something

40:10

we could do from opposite ends

40:10

of the country. And then right

40:15

at that moment, COVID hit. And

40:15

it was perfect because we could

40:21

be together. He wasn't on tour.

40:21

And we had all this time to...

40:30

for things to look at. Yeah, there was that. But also,

40:31

it was at the beginning part of

40:35

it. And so we just came here in

40:35

this very room. And we just

40:41

really experimented and screwed

40:41

around, and we're just like kids

40:45

playing. And then a structure

40:45

started emerging. And, and

40:52

basically, like, seven songs or

40:52

movements, that all function in

40:57

different ways. And then we were

40:57

able to do this live stream

41:03

version of it. And then things

41:03

opened up. We didn't, we did one

41:06

a Mass MoCA. And it's Yeah, so

41:06

it's, it's all about it's all

41:13

about physical photographs. And,

41:13

this also this question of like,

41:19

pinning down experience, because

41:19

because the live event is sort

41:26

of the opposite of photography

41:26

in a lot of ways.

41:29

Right. And, and

41:29

so you were collecting the

41:33

photos as part of the project.

41:33

And the book comes with a couple

41:39

of photos, right? Or

41:39

reproductions of....

41:43

Right. Yes. So I was,

41:43

I was collecting photos. They

41:50

were, it's hard to explain this.

41:50

But they were leading me places.

41:54

They were like, I would find a

41:54

photograph. And it might suggest

41:59

something and I would go explore

41:59

it. And I was kind of using it

42:02

that way. And then I got

42:02

interested in the idea of

42:07

collecting masses of photos and

42:07

so I was buying tons of them.

42:12

Like on eBay?

42:13

On on eBay, but what

42:13

I would do is I would find them

42:17

on eBay and then I would ask the

42:17

people on eBay, if I could come

42:21

visit them.

42:22

Okay. And, you

42:22

have the image of the man with

42:26

the box.

42:27

The man in the box,

42:27

actually, he's not one of those.

42:30

But there's there's one of all

42:30

these photographs on a table,

42:37

that's one of these eBay

42:37

sellers. And yeah, I spent all

42:42

day at that house. They have a

42:42

half million photographs. And,

42:47

and I spent the day and I got

42:47

through, like 60,000. And what's

42:52

what's amazing for that, for

42:52

photographers, it's just like, I

42:57

acquired so many photographs

42:57

that are better than anything I

43:01

will ever take in my whole life.

43:03

Thats amazing.

43:04

You know,that's so

43:04

often the case with vernacular

43:07

work. And yeah, like, what do

43:07

you do with that information?

43:11

Right? That is

43:11

humbling.

43:13

Yeah. And again,

43:13

that's that, like, you know,

43:16

someone was not thinking and

43:16

made something completely

43:21

amazing.

43:22

And probably

43:22

maybe didn't know.

43:24

And didn't know.

43:24

Yeah, no, no. And but, but does

43:28

it have, can it be seen by

43:28

others, if it's not gathered

43:34

into some sort of context or

43:34

given shape? And I guess that,

43:39

that is where photography as an

43:39

art form comes from? The picture

43:47

is a discrete experience and it

43:47

may or may not involve thinking,

43:54

but then the structuring of

43:54

these things, is so difficult

43:57

and, and that's why I say like,

43:57

um, you know, a monkey can take

44:00

a great picture. It's not

44:00

complicated. But like, putting

44:05

50 pictures together in a

44:05

meaningful way. It's like

44:09

freaking impossible.

44:14

I read that you

44:14

collect vernacular ping pong

44:16

photographs.

44:18

Yeah, that's where that's where it started.

44:20

So random and I

44:20

love it. So do you have a

44:22

special affinity for ping pong?

44:25

Oh, yes. I love

44:25

playing ping pong. Uh, and this

44:31

goes, this speaks to that

44:31

beginner sensibility, like I

44:37

loved ping pong because I knew I

44:37

would never be any good at it.

44:43

And you know, like in Minnesota,

44:43

I went to a ping pong club and

44:48

thinking I was kind of good and

44:48

I was the worst person in the

44:52

whole club. And it's just

44:52

infinite levels and then and you

44:57

just like, don't care and you

44:57

just enjoy the game. Anyway, so

45:00

I really got into it. And then

45:00

started acquiring ping pong

45:04

pictures just on a whim and

45:04

published a book of those.

45:09

Did you really, I have not seen that?

45:11

It's pretty obscure. It's a Little Brown Mushroom book. But Jeff Dyer if you know,

45:13

his work, he's he's a big ping

45:18

pong player. And so as Pico

45:18

Iyer, who's another writer, and,

45:25

and so in the book, it's Pico

45:25

Iyer and Jeff Dyer, who played

45:30

ping pong together...

45:31

And their names are kind of ping pongy. Exactly. And what's what's

45:33

fascinating, though, is that

45:37

their ping pong philosophies are

45:37

contradictory. So Pico Iyer

45:43

lives in Japan is like, very

45:43

grounded. And, and Jeff Dyer is

45:48

like, super competitive. And

45:48

like, he wears like a little

45:53

ping pong outfits. And so yeah,

45:53

so this book was about that and

45:58

use my ping pong. I mean, it's

45:58

like, really obscure.

46:03

Wow. Yeah. I love everything

46:03

about that. Yeah, um, I have a

46:08

soft spot for ping pong because

46:08

I'm not, I have just very low

46:14

athletic ability in general. But

46:14

in my 10th grade gym class,

46:19

which was all female, we had

46:19

these amazing athletes, like the

46:24

star of the female basketball

46:24

team and the female volleyball

46:27

team and the softball team, and

46:27

we would do these units of

46:31

basketball, softball, whatever.

46:31

And I was terrible at all of

46:35

them. And then we had a ping

46:35

pong unit. And my friend Jody

46:40

Mandell and I were the doubles

46:40

champion of our gym class, like,

46:45

just a fluke. But it was like my

46:45

one glorious, you know, athletic

46:51

moment. Yeah.

46:52

Yeah. Well, that's I,

46:52

I've experienced something

46:55

similar. And there are a lot of,

46:55

there are a lot of good ping

47:02

pong photographers. And part of

47:02

it I think, is...

47:07

There should be a retreat.

47:08

Well, yeah. So within

47:08

Magnum, there are a number of

47:12

them. And my theory is that war

47:12

photographers are good at it,

47:17

because they often play while

47:17

they're waiting. Anyway, so we

47:21

had a big ping pong tournament

47:21

within Magnum one time and I

47:25

won!

47:27

Wow!

47:28

I hate to brag. (laughs)

47:30

You know, but the truths the truth?

47:31

It was beautiful.

47:33

Yeah. Wow. So

47:33

they're questions that I always

47:37

ask kind of at the end, and

47:37

we're getting to that point.

47:41

I've been rambling on.

47:43

Uh no, I think I've been rambling.

47:46

Well, the ping

47:46

pong, I just had to know.

47:48

(laughs) What has been the best

47:48

career decision you've made?

47:54

Well, that one's

47:54

easy. Because there was this

47:59

moment when I was in my 20s. And

47:59

I decided, at a certain point

48:08

that I wasn't going to make a

48:08

living as a photographer that it

48:11

wasn't possible. Or I wasn't

48:11

gonna make a living as an

48:15

artist, I should say, that

48:15

seemed like too big of a dream.

48:20

And so I came back to Minnesota,

48:20

worked different jobs, worked in

48:26

a dark room. Hated darkroom work

48:26

as a consequence, and thought

48:34

it's gonna be really dangerous

48:34

if I make a living as a

48:37

photographer, that I'm going to

48:37

hate photography. And I got

48:41

offered this job at a photo

48:41

studio, a pretty high end one. I

48:49

was way under qualified. I

48:49

didn't have lighting skills or

48:54

any of that. But it was good

48:54

money. And I really struggled

48:59

with that decision.

49:00

Of whether you should take it or not?

49:02

Whether I should take

49:02

it. Part of the reason I chose

49:06

not to take it was because I

49:06

thought I was under qualified.

49:10

But the other part was this

49:10

feeling or this, like gut

49:13

feeling that this was gonna set

49:13

me off on a path and I'm sure it

49:18

would have. And it was really

49:18

like, the road, you know, split

49:23

right there. And thank God I

49:23

took the other path. Yeah.

49:30

All right.

49:30

That's good. It's nice when you

49:32

can...

49:33

When you have an answer.

49:34

Yeah, yeah.

49:36

Yeah.

49:36

Can you talk

49:36

about a wrong turn you made and

49:40

what you learned from it?

49:41

Hmm. Career wise?

49:47

I mean, it doesn't have to be but....

49:51

Hmm, you know, I I

49:51

don't I don't have a ton of have

50:00

regrets or anything but

50:00

something comes to mind, which

50:05

is, I was listening to a podcast

50:05

with the author, John Green.

50:12

He's known as a young adult

50:12

writer, The Fault in Our Stars,

50:15

but he's an amazing writer and

50:15

and he was asked this question

50:28

When was a time in your life

50:28

when you were inauthentic? You

50:34

know, you were performing some

50:34

other role? And the answers this

50:43

particular podcasters asked this

50:43

question, often and people often

50:47

talk about, like, a time in high

50:47

school, and they dressed a

50:49

certain way, or what have you.

50:49

Anyway, John Green talked about

50:52

when he first got success. And

50:52

he went out, and he bought these

50:58

really great suits. You know, I

50:58

don't know what they were, Paul

51:00

Smith or something like that

51:00

really expensive. And, and he

51:04

just felt false in them, you

51:04

know, and I had, there was a

51:10

similar moment, around the time

51:10

of Niagra. And I moved to

51:16

Gagosian Gallery and I was like,

51:16

Oh, should I get an apartment in

51:19

New York? And I was like,

51:19

entering I was, that was a path

51:25

that I was starting to head down.

51:26

Mm hmm. Yeah.

51:26

That you felt like, was what

51:30

you're supposed to do given all

51:30

circumstances.

51:33

And kind of in wanting it a little bit, you know, like, and I was kind of

51:35

performing it. And it was, yeah,

51:42

it's like, I think back to it

51:42

and I'm like ehhh, you know, and

51:46

it was not the right... And I

51:46

don't but I don't regret going

51:49

to Gagosian. I kind of knew it

51:49

wasn't the right fit, but, uh,

51:54

you know, and it was all that

51:54

stuff that time period a little

51:56

bit. Yeah. It's like, I suddenly

51:56

was the popular kid in school.

52:01

And I, you know, I didn't like

52:01

beat up any nerds.

52:06

(Laughs) Just

52:06

shy of a beating up a nerd. So

52:12

that segues well into the last

52:12

question, which is, how do you

52:16

define success for yourself?

52:19

Hmm. Ah, you know,

52:19

continually finding ways to make

52:30

it new. But also to keep making

52:30

it. And they're two different

52:39

things. I can't believe I still

52:39

get to do this. But I get to do

52:45

this, in part because I make a

52:45

living at it. So I have to make

52:50

certain sacrifices, creative

52:50

sacrifices, whatever. If I go

52:56

too far down that road, I get

52:56

into trouble. But then I made,

53:00

you know, but I come back. I

53:00

experiment, I goof around. I'll

53:07

play with a musician. And I'll

53:07

collect ping pong pictures, do

53:10

all these crazy things and then

53:10

I'll go and shoot a Gucci

53:13

campaign over here (laughs).

53:13

And, and, for me, success is

53:21

holding those two things in

53:21

balance. And it's a it's a

53:26

delicate balance, for sure.

53:28

Yeah, no, that's

53:28

it. I mean, balance in general,

53:30

is hard in everything.

53:33

And that's kind of

53:33

the answer to all of these

53:35

questions. So it's like about

53:35

narrative about meditation about

53:39

all this stuff. There is no

53:39

answer. It's just like,

53:44

maintaining balance for a while

53:44

until you lose it, and then

53:48

getting back up again, and

53:48

trying to find some balance.

53:54

So true, so

53:54

true.

54:04

Thank you for listening to the

54:04

Perfect Bound Podcast. I'm

54:07

Jennifer Yoffy. You can listen

54:07

to previous episodes by going on

54:11

to the Yoffy Press website. You

54:11

can also find this podcast on

54:15

Spotify, Apple podcasts, or any

54:15

other podcast streaming

54:19

platform. And if you love it,

54:19

which I hope you do, please go

54:23

on to one of those places and

54:23

give it all the stars. Thank you

54:27

so much again, and I'll see you

54:27

next time.

54:44

I was trying to think of what I

54:44

would collect, and I love

54:48

rainbows. And so I would imagine

54:48

that a lot of people take

54:52

pictures of rainbows, right. It

54:52

would have to be more..., it

54:56

would have to be color photos.

55:00

Yeah, I mean...

55:02

Have you seen a

55:02

lot of rainbow photos, you've

55:04

seen them out there in the field.

55:06

I've seen a fair

55:06

number and I, I really liked

55:09

them as well.

55:11

Who doesn't love a rainbow?

55:13

Yeah. Well, what's

55:13

interesting about a rainbow is

55:16

it's kind of like the moon. It's

55:16

like, it's always something you

55:21

want to photograph and it is

55:21

always a little disappointing

55:25

when you do it.

55:28

But I like that. But

55:28

that also gets at the problem

55:28

(Laughs) Yeah, sooo true. with photography so often. And

55:33

so what you'll see with the moon

55:37

is that, you know, pro

55:37

photographers, they use these

55:40

super telephotos to make it look

55:40

giant. I mean, do you know about

55:46

the Moon illusion? I'm not sure.

55:50

So the Moon illusion

55:50

is that, you know, when you see

55:53

the moon, it's big. That's your

55:53

brain doing that. I don't know

55:57

if you know this.

55:58

I didn't know that.

55:59

It's crazy. So. And I

55:59

found this very hard to believe

56:04

when I learned this. But if you

56:04

like, measure it with your

56:08

thumbnail, and then once it's

56:08

small in the sky, you measure it

56:12

with your thumbnail, it's the

56:12

same size. So what's happening

56:16

is your brain is seeing it by

56:16

the horizon and thinking it's

56:20

large.

56:21

Yes, yes, it is.

56:23

Yeah. And so which is

56:23

why when you take your iPhone,

56:25

like, wow, look at that big moon

56:25

and you take picture but it's so

56:30

small. Why is that? And which,

56:30

which also gets at the problem

56:37

with photography that....

56:39

I was gonna say the problem with my brain. (laughs)

56:41

Yeah, but it's your

56:41

brain filling up the world with

56:47

all this relevant information

56:47

and, and making things

56:52

extraordinary. But it's not

56:52

really there.

56:57

I'm going to have to sit with that a moment.

57:00

It's deep, I know.

57:00

And check out like, Google this

57:04

because there's some fascinating

57:04

examples of it and, and I still

57:13

don't believe it in a way. And I

57:13

have to relearn this.

57:17

Wow. No, I will,

57:17

I will.