0:06

Welcome to Perfect Bound. I'm Jennifer Yoffy, the founder and publisher

0:08

of Yoffy Press in Atlanta,

0:11

Georgia. This is a podcast where

0:11

we talk to artists about their

0:14

journey, how they got where they

0:14

are, what right and wrong turns

0:18

they made along the way, and

0:18

where they're heading next.

0:27

Andres Gonzalez is an educator

0:27

and visual artist whose current

0:30

work engages with in depth

0:30

research to investigate

0:33

relationships between ritual,

0:33

memory, and place within the

0:36

American social landscape. He's

0:36

published two books Somewhere in

0:41

2012, which was made over a

0:41

decade while living in Istanbul,

0:44

and American Origami in 2019,

0:44

which won the Lightwork Photo

0:48

Book award and was shortlisted

0:48

for the Paris Photo Aperture

0:51

Book Awards. He's received

0:51

recognition from the Pulitzer

0:55

Center, the Alexia Foundation,

0:55

and as a Fulbright Fellow. His

0:59

work has been exhibited at the

0:59

San Francisco Museum of Art, the

1:02

Ogden Museum of Southern Art,

1:02

The Stedelijk Museum in

1:05

Amsterdam, and the Museum of

1:05

Contemporary Photography in

1:08

Chicago, where he's also

1:08

collaborated with the Columbia

1:10

College Theatre department and

1:10

members from Tectonic Theater

1:14

Project in a theatrical

1:14

adaptation of American Origami.

1:17

Please welcome Andreas Gonzales

1:17

to the podcast.

1:30

What are you doing in Chicago?

1:32

So I'm here in

1:32

Chicago. Because this exhibition

1:37

I was in at the Museum of

1:37

Contemporary Photography, called

1:41

Guns in

1:41

America. It's a group show and I

1:46

proposed an idea to stage a kind

1:46

of performance of American

1:52

Oregon, I didn't know what that

1:52

was like. I just talked to Karen

1:54

about it, thought I, you know,

1:54

it could evolve in some kind of

1:58

performative piece. And, over a

1:58

period of a year, it evolved

2:04

into a collaboration with two

2:04

members of this theatre company

2:10

called Tectonic Theater Project

2:10

out of New York. And I'm working

2:15

with a director named Jimmy

2:15

Maize, and the Columbia College

2:19

Theatre Department to produce a

2:19

theatrical adaptation of

2:24

American Origami. And it's

2:24

really interesting in that for

2:33

me, I have completely given over

2:33

this project that I held, in

2:41

this book that I held so tightly

2:41

for so long, I kind of gave it

2:45

over to a group of creative

2:45

people to dismantle, completely,

2:55

like, deconstruct and use a

2:55

completely different creative

3:02

process to reconstruct it. And,

3:02

you know, it's even to the point

3:06

where I've, like, I'm a

3:06

character in the play. As the

3:14

author of the work, we decided

3:14

we really wanted the students to

3:18

have a lot of agency in creating

3:18

the production. And, they

3:25

decided, and I was involved in

3:25

the script, the script writing,

3:31

but mostly as a consultant, I

3:31

mean, I really did give the work

3:34

over to this group, to, to work

3:34

with. And the students decided

3:40

they wanted to, they created a

3:40

set where it takes place almost

3:48

in this dream like archive, so

3:48

there's all the materials there

3:53

in pictures, and they scanned a

3:53

lot of the book and, and made

3:57

photographs of the artifacts.

3:57

And they're using projectors,

4:01

these school projectors that,

4:01

you know, project texts on the

4:05

wall for students in classrooms.

4:05

They're using two of them to

4:08

create this, this, this kind of

4:08

dreamlike archival, you know,

4:17

they're like all these little

4:17

worker elves are looking through

4:22

the material and discovering the

4:22

stories and discovering

4:25

interviews with people. And

4:25

what's really beautiful about

4:29

the way it's structured is they

4:29

all approach the audience and

4:33

they speak to the audience as

4:33

themselves, as you know, as

4:39

themselves discovering this

4:39

work, but over the term over

4:44

over the hour long play, the

4:44

students begin to embody the

4:49

characters that they discover,

4:49

and they turn into these these

4:54

different people that I

4:54

interviewed. And as they're

4:58

doing that they they are also

4:58

engage in dialogue with with

5:02

each other. And so the audience

5:02

disappears. And you just see

5:07

these, these students become the

5:07

people I interviewed, and, and

5:14

they cut the interviews in a

5:14

way, like they kind of found

5:18

moments in the interviews, where

5:18

these different characters are

5:22

talking to each other in a

5:22

dialogue. And it's all very

5:25

fluid. Like, at one point,

5:25

there's maybe four or five

5:29

different characters on stage.

5:29

And they're all talking to each

5:32

other, through these interviews

5:32

that I did, and it becomes very

5:38

surreal, and no, and this swirl,

5:38

this just swirl of voices and

5:42

images.

5:43

Yeah, wow!

5:45

And it's really beautiful the way they did it.

5:47

And it's being recorded?

5:49

It is being

5:49

recorded, I'm not sure when

5:52

they're going to post it online,

5:52

but it is going to be recorded.

5:56

It's so

5:56

fascinating, because I mean, so

5:59

we talked about your book as

5:59

very dense, there's a lot there,

6:03

it was on my coffee table for

6:03

months and months, because I

6:05

would just pick it up and go

6:05

through a bit at a time. So it's

6:10

interesting, you know that to

6:10

have a different experience of

6:14

the work and the concept into an

6:14

hour long performance.

6:20

Yeah, that's

6:20

that's been, what's the most

6:24

amazing thing for me is to

6:24

experience my own work in a way

6:28

that I could never have come up

6:28

with on my on my own, and it and

6:33

it makes me engage with the

6:33

material in a totally different

6:39

way. I mean, you know, the

6:39

movements on stage, and the way

6:45

that these different characters

6:45

are speaking to each other. You

6:51

know, in my head, as I was

6:51

making the book, I'm like, Oh,

6:53

these, there's all these

6:53

different echoes, there's like

6:57

these echoes of different ideas

6:57

and narratives, and experiences,

7:06

kind of flowing through all

7:06

these different interviews and

7:09

these little vignettes that I

7:09

that I put in the book. And I

7:12

was I kind of want the real,

7:12

like, it takes a really close

7:16

reader to find those. But when

7:16

you see it on stage, it all kind

7:20

of comes together. Like all

7:20

those ideas start to weave

7:25

together in this way. That's

7:25

very experiential, as opposed to

7:29

intellectual. I mean, it is, it

7:29

is like, it is kind of kind of

7:35

brainy the way they they did it.

7:35

You really have to kind of pay

7:37

attention. But it's much more

7:37

experiential. I feel like you

7:41

walk in and you're being rained

7:41

on for, you know, an hour with

7:45

like this, you know, just being

7:45

soaked in it and soaked in all

7:50

the material. And it's, it's, it

7:50

was really, it's really great

7:54

for me as an artist to be able

7:54

to experience my own work in

7:58

this totally new format, I feel

7:58

like it just has kind of blown

8:04

my mind a little bit.

8:05

Yeah, I love

8:05

that. Well, I have some

8:09

questions about the American

8:09

Origami work. So this is a good

8:13

lead in. So you were living

8:13

abroad and then you returned to

8:17

the US in 2012, just a couple of

8:17

weeks before the Sandy Hook

8:21

shooting. That event set you on

8:21

a course, which eventually

8:26

became the American Origami

8:26

work. And I was curious what

8:29

effect you felt with the timing.

8:29

So coming back to this country

8:33

after observing it kind of from

8:33

across the world, what effect

8:38

that had on your perception of

8:38

the state of America and the gun

8:42

violence here.

8:45

Yes, you know,

8:45

Carolyn and I (Carolyn Drake my

8:48

partner) we were abroad for a

8:48

pretty long time. On and off. We

8:56

were first in Ukraine, and we

8:56

moved to Istanbul. And we were

9:00

there you know, during the Bush

9:00

years and weapons of mass

9:02

destruction. It wasn't like the

9:02

it wasn't the best time. I mean,

9:08

now looking back at it well, to

9:08

say it wasn't the best time to

9:12

be an American abroad,

9:12

especially, you know, I was

9:16

traveling a lot for work and,

9:16

you know, taking, you know,

9:21

dipping in the Middle East and

9:21

and it wasn't, you know, I felt

9:29

like, if at first I wanted to be

9:29

defensive, you know, maybe my

9:33

default was be a little

9:33

defensive of America. That broke

9:40

down pretty quickly. As we were

9:40

living abroad, but then Obama

9:47

got elected, and that that was a

9:47

huge mental shift as far as like

9:52

what it felt like for me to be,

9:52

you know, an American. So when

9:56

we came back, I still had this

9:56

feeling of I don't know, like,

10:01

there was like a, I felt like

10:01

there was a sea change

10:04

happening. And, and so coming

10:04

back, I really thought I was

10:08

gonna do something a little more

10:08

uplifting about, you know,

10:11

coming home. I felt strange

10:11

from, um, but yeah, when two

10:20

weeks after I moved back and it

10:20

just totally, it totally turned

10:25

me around and just really, you

10:25

know, I felt like I just put

10:30

this dark cloud over anything

10:30

creative that I wanted to do.

10:34

And I became really interested

10:34

in, in this phenomenon. Not

10:44

necessarily in gun violence

10:44

broadly, but I became really

10:49

interested in this phenomenon

10:49

of, of mass shootings, and

10:51

especially mass shootings in

10:51

schools, just children killing

10:56

children and, and why it was so

10:56

prevalent in the United States.

11:01

So I started following the, you

11:01

know, what was happening

11:04

politically around gun control,

11:04

and, and I, I just kind of fell

11:14

into... I hate to use the word

11:14

obsessed, but I really did

11:20

become extremely concerned and

11:20

interested in all things

11:29

surrounding the Sandy Hook

11:29

shooting. And, you know, part of

11:35

it, I think, was that the

11:35

emotions from that day when that

11:39

happened, were so extreme. And

11:39

partly, it's from, you know,

11:46

moving back feeling a little

11:46

uncomfortable in my skin. We

11:55

moved to Mississippi, right

11:55

after Istanbul to a small town,

12:00

and, `I was just like, you know,

12:00

there's this like, cultural

12:06

shift and, and just feeling a

12:06

little alienated. And, and not

12:15

it's not exactly what I expected

12:15

coming home, especially after

12:18

the Sandy Hook shooting. So,

12:18

four months later, universal

12:25

background checks didn't pass in

12:25

Congress and that's when that's

12:29

really when I start to dig into

12:29

the research and, and read

12:38

about, you know, the history of

12:38

gun control and why this shit

12:43

just can't (sigh) why we why we

12:43

can't just use common sense

12:49

around this.

12:50

Right, why we

12:50

can just pull it together and

12:54

come up with a solution.

12:56

Yeah, and I

12:56

just, I just started reading a

12:58

lot. And, and at that point, it

12:58

wasn't really a project. I

13:03

didn't, it was just like an

13:03

interest. And I and I kept

13:06

telling myself, I can't like,

13:06

like, there's nothing I can,

13:11

like I can do, there's nothing I

13:11

can do. There's nothing that,

13:15

you know, creatively, I can

13:15

explore that, or immerse myself

13:19

in and that's gonna make any

13:19

kind of difference. Because I

13:23

was really thinking from this

13:23

place of like, wanting to

13:26

protest and I still think that

13:26

this is I think American Origami

13:30

turned into like a quiet act of

13:30

protest.

13:33

Absolutely.

13:34

But at that

13:34

point, I wanted to do something

13:37

really, I really wanted to,

13:37

like, do something really

13:41

proactive and, and I started

13:41

just by researching, but um, and

13:47

reading books, and you know,

13:47

anything I could find online,

13:50

and and pretty quickly, I

13:50

started to notice patterns in

13:55

the narrative that's told around

13:55

school shootings and this, like,

14:00

regression to you know, really

14:00

oversimplified notions of like

14:07

good and evil. And how the media

14:07

like all these, all the imagery

14:12

around in the media, around

14:12

school shootings, become like

14:17

tropes, and you see the same

14:17

imagery over and over and over

14:20

the same narratives over and

14:20

over and over and then you hear

14:23

presidents give their speeches,

14:23

and it's the same script. And

14:28

just the, the, that repetition,

14:28

I became really interested in

14:33

and and I started to feel like,

14:33

you know, there's, we know that

14:41

this is there's like a cyclical

14:41

nature to this type of violence.

14:45

But I wanted to see if I really

14:45

leaned into thinking more deeply

14:52

about that cyclical nature, and,

14:52

and think about other ways that

15:01

we kind of repeat ourselves in

15:01

the wake of these tragedies. I

15:06

started thinking a lot about

15:06

that. And eventually it turned

15:09

into, yeah, it turned into a

15:09

project. I think the, the

15:15

turning point for me, when I

15:15

really started thinking that I

15:19

might be able to explore

15:19

something that I hadn't thought

15:24

of before was when I, I sent my

15:24

first Freedom of Information Act

15:28

request to get the Columbine

15:28

documents. And it was basically

15:36

like, over 20,000 pages of

15:36

forensic material. And then

15:41

there were some journals, some

15:41

journal entries that they had

15:44

found by Dylan and Eric, the two

15:44

boys that committed the murders

15:50

and I just started to, to feel

15:50

this form of empathy that I

15:57

hadn't before. And it freaked me

15:57

out. And, and, and that's, I

16:05

spent, like two weeks just

16:05

reading through all their

16:07

journals, just reading and I

16:07

think, you know, it really, it

16:12

really started to test or

16:12

challenge what I believed

16:20

empathy could be and, and like I

16:20

said, I it, it freaked me out a

16:24

little bit. But that, that

16:24

emotion, that very complicated

16:29

emotion started to make me think

16:29

that I could I could find

16:35

something, that there was, there

16:35

must, must be more to find

16:39

within the subtext of this

16:39

particular type of violence.

16:45

Yeah, can you

16:45

talk a little bit more about

16:47

that empathy piece, I mean, I

16:47

can imagine that being jarring.

16:52

Because obviously, school

16:52

shootings, it's something that

16:57

is horrifying, and that we, you

16:57

know, want to stop and we're all

17:00

against and, and then reading

17:00

kind of the inner thoughts of

17:08

the people that perpetrated it,

17:08

and feeling a connectivity in

17:11

any way, you know, would be

17:11

disturbing. So how do you think

17:15

that..., can you just talk a

17:15

little bit more about how that

17:19

feeling shifted the way you

17:19

approach the project?

17:24

So I started

17:24

to, when you start to go through

17:32

these journals, a lot of it is,

17:32

is, is what you might expect. I

17:38

mean, it's a lot of teenage

17:38

angst, but incredibly

17:41

intensified. And a lot of

17:41

violent language. But somewhere,

17:49

kind of hidden in between the

17:49

lines, you start to see these

17:53

two kids just their, their

17:53

vulnerability really, really

17:57

comes through and, you know, a

17:57

lot of... I hate to try and

18:05

interpret the texts, the the

18:05

journals, I, I struggled with

18:09

that, because, you know, I'm

18:09

projecting my own bias, my own

18:13

experience, and personal

18:13

experiences onto these texts. So

18:19

I have a hard time talking about

18:19

them and presenting them in the

18:26

book was a big struggle. I, you

18:26

know, at one point, I had a lot

18:30

of the journals in there because

18:30

I wanted that jolt, I wanted

18:34

that emotional jolt. I

18:34

eventually ended up just putting

18:39

in just a very, very few pages

18:39

from the journals, but you know,

18:49

there's this Toni Morrison talk

18:49

that she gave at the Harvard

18:53

Divinity School that I, I found,

18:53

as I was right around the time

19:00

that I was reading these

19:00

journals and and she, she gives

19:07

us talk about art and altruism.

19:07

And, and it was the, the

19:14

foundation of the talk was

19:14

she's, it was basically a, a

19:21

talk about her search for

19:21

meaning after, or her search for

19:27

a response for her own personal

19:27

response to the Amish school

19:31

shooting. That happened in I

19:31

believe, is 2009. But I can't

19:38

remember right now off the top

19:38

of my head, I believe in 2009.

19:43

And in the talk, she's, she said

19:43

something like she's talking

19:49

about, you know, what art can do

19:49

in these situations. And she

19:55

said something like she's

19:55

talking about literature. But I

20:00

took it as thinking about art

20:00

broadly, and she said something

20:06

like the, the power of, of

20:06

literature is its ability to

20:14

illuminate the moral questions

20:14

embedded in the narrative. And

20:20

that, that I took that idea, as

20:20

I was thinking about, as I was

20:27

reading these, these journals, I

20:27

was really thinking hard about

20:35

that thought about what the

20:35

moral questions might be. And,

20:42

and, you know, I'm sorry, if

20:42

this is kind of going off on a

20:47

tangent...

20:47

No, no, I love this. But as I was, as I was reading

20:49

these journals, and just

20:54

thinking a lot about empathy,

20:54

and what that what that might

20:58

mean, in this context, when

20:58

you're, when, you know, I'm, I'm

21:03

looking at these two kids and,

21:03

you know, they're writing about

21:07

their broken hearts, and, you

21:07

know, being teased. And there's

21:13

one entry, where, you know, one

21:13

of the boys is writing, he wrote

21:21

a memory, it was a memory about,

21:21

and this isn't his personal

21:23

journal, but a memory about

21:23

being on the school bus as a

21:28

kid, and how is a refuge and

21:28

where they could talk about

21:31

personal things, and he talked

21:31

about his friend with his big

21:35

goofy brown eyes and talking

21:35

about a girlfriend, and it just,

21:40

you know, you, you, you see, I

21:40

started to see where there were

21:47

these turning points that might

21:47

have occurred, and again, I'm

21:53

just projecting, that's what I

21:53

kind of have a hard time talking

21:57

about these journals, because a

21:57

lot of it is really just

21:59

interpretation. I think it is super interesting,

22:02

though, because, you know, at

22:06

face value, you the school

22:06

shooting, it's about gun

22:11

violence, you know, but then if

22:11

you take it to a, you know, the

22:16

next level deeper about, you

22:16

know, and kind of turn the gaze

22:22

on to the shooters and what, you

22:22

know, what must have, like, the

22:25

pain that they must have felt or

22:25

what, you know, experiences they

22:28

went through, that brought them

22:28

to this point of desperation, or

22:34

whatever you would want to call

22:34

it, you know, to do this

22:38

incredibly horrific act of

22:38

violence. But it kind of calls

22:44

the question a deeper, or an

22:44

additional layer of systemic

22:49

problem of bullying, or, you

22:49

know, like, just kind of the way

22:54

that people are with each other,

22:54

that can cause these deep

23:00

wounds.

23:02

Right, and, you

23:02

know, I, I don't want to, again,

23:07

I struggled to talk about these

23:07

journals, and what I felt

23:11

because I risk romanticizing

23:11

these, these murders, and, you

23:21

know, there is a movement, to

23:21

not name the perpetrators of

23:26

these crimes. And, you know,

23:26

like in the play, we decided,w

23:30

e're not going to name them.

23:30

We're just going to, you know,

23:35

anytime their names come up in,

23:35

in, in the interviews, we just

23:41

substitute the shooter, and, and

23:41

so, I have a really hard time

23:48

talking about talking about

23:48

them, because what I really am

23:54

talking about is the feeling

23:54

that that empathy that confused

23:59

me, and, and thinking, you know,

23:59

when I look at the research I

24:06

was doing online at first, and

24:06

seeing the narratives broken

24:10

down into these really

24:10

oversimpli`fied terms that

24:19

angered me, because, I felt like

24:19

the humanity, there's, there's a

24:23

piece of humanity that was

24:23

missing. And especially, you

24:26

know, after every one of these

24:26

shootings, there's always some

24:30

kind of, in depth profile of

24:30

these kids, or, you know, or a

24:36

parent or one of the parents or

24:36

the kids and that always really

24:40

bothered me, because I felt it

24:40

did, like, give so much

24:49

attention to the perpetrator of

24:49

a crime. And so sensational, it

24:57

just ends up being so

24:57

sensationalized. And the

25:00

journals are very sensational.

25:00

You know, if you'd see them, if

25:03

you take a look at them, it's

25:03

they're just really extreme. So

25:07

I have a hard time reconciling all of it.

25:11

Yeah, all of

25:11

that makes sense. Yeah, its a

25:18

very thin line.

25:19

But I only

25:19

mention it, you know, and maybe

25:22

we're taking too much time here

25:22

talking about them, but I only

25:25

mentioned it because when I was

25:25

going through them, I, I felt

25:30

something different. And I thought, Okay, what else is there that I can look at? Where,

25:32

where else? Are there gaps? What

25:37

else can I bring forward, that

25:37

may activate a different kind of

25:44

thinking around this very unique

25:44

type of violence. So that that's

25:51

why I mentioned it because it

25:51

really was a turning point. But

25:54

in the end, it wasn't a focus,

25:54

it was just what led me to start

26:00

looking at other things and, and

26:00

wondering what was just under

26:05

the surface, and literally, I

26:05

found you know, in these

26:10

archives, I found these all

26:10

these material objects that were

26:14

left at the sites, and that's,

26:14

that's where I found kind of the

26:20

bulk of my attention being

26:20

focused on.

26:25

Yeah, so it kind

26:25

of shifted from being maybe more

26:30

like, factual reporting to a

26:30

more like, human reaction or

26:41

response to it, would you say

26:41

that's true? I mean, because

26:43

it's like, it's the two kind of

26:43

halves of the book, right?

26:47

Yeah. What I

26:47

ended up focusing on you know, I

26:55

sent in, I got this material

26:55

from from, from Columbine. And,

27:00

and then after that, I thought,

27:00

Okay, this is gonna be a

27:04

research, I need to just really

27:04

dig into research, and find, you

27:12

know, original texts and

27:12

materials, and archival and

27:14

forensic materials to compile

27:14

and, and start to sift through

27:21

and see what what I find. The

27:21

photography part of it, you

27:28

know, initially, I didn't think

27:28

of it as a, as a photo project,

27:31

even though I just, I thought,

27:31

okay, am I gonna write, like, is

27:36

this gonna be something that I

27:36

write, write for? Or, you know,

27:43

maybe it's something that's

27:43

purely archival, and curating,

27:47

you know, all this forensic

27:47

material, I didn't really know,

27:50

for a long time, what it what it

27:50

was gonna turn into. But it did

27:55

end up being more about, about

27:55

our about the collective

28:02

response to to these shootings,

28:02

as opposed to, you know, looking

28:06

at the shootings, specifically

28:06

themselves. And that happened

28:11

when I went to the first the

28:11

first place I went to, and this

28:14

is maybe this is probably like,

28:14

maybe eight months after I

28:18

started really, really

28:18

researching, going to Northern

28:22

Illinois University. Here

28:22

actually really close to

28:26

Chicago. And I went there

28:26

thinking, because at that point

28:31

I was still collecting archival

28:31

stuff. And I thought, Okay, I'm

28:35

going to go through their

28:35

microfiche, and, you know, see

28:39

if they'd collected any like, I

28:39

don't know, like, local, like

28:45

media clips, media, archival

28:45

stuff that I might want to put

28:51

in the book. And I thought,

28:51

Okay, I'm gonna go to every site

28:53

of these, you know, different

28:53

schools, and I'm just gonna

28:55

collect stuff. And when I got

28:55

here, the librarian there, I

29:00

guess she's the, the director of

29:00

the archives, she's like, Oh,

29:03

have you seen our, you know, our

29:03

T 14 collection? Because this

29:09

the the shooting happened on on

29:09

Valentine's Day, when I was

29:13

like, oh, no, what's your

29:13

collection, and she brought out

29:16

this binder. And in the binder

29:16

was just this list of all the

29:20

stuff that they'd collected. And

29:20

I was like, Whoa, what is this?

29:24

And so I just chose a box. And

29:24

she brought out a box, and it

29:29

was just filled with letters and

29:29

photographs, and, you know,

29:36

paintings and like, there's a

29:36

big, big box and just sifting

29:39

through it. And it was just, you

29:39

know, I had heard that some of

29:43

this stuff was collected at

29:43

different, you know, sites. I

29:46

just didn't realize the amount

29:46

like it, the binder, just, you

29:51

know, the list, the catalog just

29:51

went on and on and on. And I was

29:55

like, wow, what is this stuff?

29:55

And I said, I started going

29:59

through it You read these

29:59

letters, you know, I mean, I

30:02

was, initially I was really

30:02

moved by these, these long

30:08

handwritten letters. They were

30:08

just so trying so hard to, to

30:13

grasp what had happened. Yeah,

30:13

but they also, you know, like,

30:18

some were like confessionals,

30:18

like, people would write

30:21

anonymously about their own

30:21

tragedy. And the letters weren't

30:24

sent to anyone specifically, it

30:24

was just like, sent to the

30:27

school or sent to the city and

30:27

to the hospital. And

30:33

Ah, like

30:33

communal therapy.

30:36

So interesting...

30:37

You could see how it was, like really cathartic for people. But, you

30:38

know, for people that would

30:41

write them. A lot of it though,

30:41

was really a lot of it was also

30:48

like this. I'm using this like,

30:48

sentimental language is kind of

30:53

embedded in our collective

30:53

consciousness, you know,

30:56

thoughts and prayers language?

30:56

Yeah. You know, um, you know,

31:00

our hearts are with you, or

31:00

Jesus loves you or whatever,

31:04

whatever it may be. A lot of

31:04

religious memorabilia.

31:10

I read about the

31:10

teddy bears.

31:13

Yeah. I just never thought about that

31:14

before, like, the volume of

31:19

teddy bears that gets sent, you

31:19

know, like you see, you know,

31:23

like you were saying just these

31:23

kind of common news images, you

31:27

know, you see where they create

31:27

these memorial things with

31:31

candles and flowers and so many

31:31

teddy bears and I didn't realize

31:35

they got saved in a lot of

31:35

cases.

31:37

A lot of times. Yeah, these

31:37

like, I mean, it's like

31:41

everything from teddy bears to

31:41

huge banners to somebody sent

31:47

like a tricycle, there's a

31:47

tricycle, I found a tricycle in

31:50

the Columbine Museum. That was

31:50

like painted in Columbine

31:56

colors. There was I'm sorry, I'm

31:56

blanking here. Oh, there's like

32:05

a there is a like a bowling pin

32:05

that was signed. There's like

32:10

goggles that I find from

32:10

chemistry labs, you know, that

32:13

were from like they're left by

32:13

lab partners. The teddy bears,

32:17

you're probably thinking about

32:17

the statistics or the number

32:23

that I got from. She was, she's

32:23

an amateur photographer and

32:30

resident of Newtown. She told me

32:30

that Newtown received over

32:35

65,000 teddy bears. And that

32:35

stuff all got incinerated, which

32:40

is a whole other story I could

32:40

tell you about but yeah, the

32:45

Newtown stuff the Newtown

32:45

archive, when I when I got to

32:48

Hartford, its in the Hartford

32:48

State Archive, the archive, they

32:53

didn't have a lot of stuff. It

32:53

was really tightly curated. Most

32:56

of it got incinerated, because

32:56

they were just inundated like

32:59

the same. What

32:59

do you do with 65,000 teddy

33:02

And like half a

33:02

million letters and like every,

33:02

bears... you know, and they, they moved

33:05

it from place to place trying to

33:09

store it. And eventually it

33:09

ended up in this small airplane

33:13

hangar outside of town and it

33:13

just filled up the airplane

33:17

hangar and eventually the city

33:17

just didn't know what to do with

33:22

it. So they they decided to

33:22

incinerate it in in the the town

33:26

over called Bridgeport. And that

33:26

stuff, you know, it all came

33:30

I thought that was really

33:30

interesting too, and not

33:30

down to like a three by three by

33:30

three foot box. It's a they they

33:35

call it sacred soil. I'd

33:35

actually tried to go see it but

33:39

I wasn't able to, it's locked

33:39

underneath city hall. But yeah,

33:43

I mean, those that material, you

33:43

know, when you started going

33:47

through it, and you see that was

33:47

another thing where I started

33:51

really recognizing patterns in

33:51

the language and how we respond

33:56

and and that's one thing that I

33:56

really ended up focusing on is

34:00

just the grief ritual around

34:00

school shootings, the grief

34:04

rituals around things around

34:04

school shootings and and that's

34:08

where the title comes from

34:08

American Origami. So many

34:12

origami cranes, hundreds of

34:12

them. I can became really

34:15

obsessed with that, with how

34:15

that tradition, that Japanese

34:19

tradition had... something I expected that would

34:23

be repeated from place to place.

34:28

Yeah, it's it's really

34:28

interesting to me how that story

34:32

was appropriated. You know,

34:32

through this children's

34:36

children's book that was written

34:36

in the 70s called Sadako and the

34:41

1000 Paper Cranes. The story

34:41

about it is there's you know, in

34:46

Japanese culture, there's a

34:46

story that if you if you make

34:51

1000 paper cranes in a year,

34:51

you're granted a wish. And

34:54

there's this little girl she's

34:54

12 years old Sadako Sasaki who

34:59

had, she had been diagnosed with

34:59

this really acute form of

35:02

leukemia because of the bombing,

35:02

the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and

35:09

she ended up dying. But within a

35:09

year, she made over 1400 cranes

35:16

and, and became this national

35:16

heroine, there's the this

35:21

beautiful memorial to her in

35:21

People's Park, and people come

35:26

and like leave cranes there all

35:26

the time. The Obamas left two

35:29

cranes there when he was in

35:29

office, but um, but there's this

35:34

children's book, it's an American children's book that was written in the 70s by

35:36

Eleanor Coerr, and she, she

35:42

basically retold the story to an

35:42

American audience. And what I

35:46

found really fascinating about

35:46

it was that she changed the

35:49

narrative so that Sadako

35:49

actually doesn't make 1400

35:54

cranes she only makes, she

35:54

makes, I think 646.

36:00

Okay.

36:02

The remaining

36:02

cranes were made by her friends

36:08

and classmates. It was such an

36:08

such an interesting twist to the

36:12

narrative or change to the

36:12

narrative. I obsessed over that.

36:16

I reached out, she passed away

36:16

by the time I found out about

36:19

the book.

36:20

The author?

36:21

The author,

36:21

yeah, I reached out to the

36:23

illustrator to see if he knew

36:23

why and he didn't. So it remains

36:27

a mystery. But I, you know, I

36:27

found it very, almost like an

36:33

American, a very American

36:33

ending, you know, it's, it's,

36:39

it's, um, it's not like, Oh, she

36:39

made over 1000 cranes, and she

36:45

didn't get a wish, it's, it's

36:45

that she didn't make it, but her

36:49

community came together to like,

36:49

you know, to help heal and, you

36:54

know, heal the country or

36:54

whatever. And that's, that, to

36:58

me, felt very American,

36:58

especially like, you know,

37:01

relating that narrative to a lot

37:01

of the script in presidential

37:06

speeches, how, you know, they

37:06

always mentioned that, this,

37:11

these tragedies bring Americans

37:11

together, they bring us together

37:14

as a nation. I just found that

37:14

really interesting, especially

37:19

since it's you know, this

37:19

shooting comes from this really

37:24

incredible, incredibly horrific

37:24

act of violence that Americans

37:31

dropped on the Japenese.

37:33

Yes, yeah. Yeah.

37:33

Right.

37:36

Almost this

37:36

like subtext of absolution, you

37:38

know, that I found really

37:38

interesting. But yeah, that's,

37:43

that's kind of where that all came from.

37:45

So I wanted to

37:45

ask you about the design, which,

37:48

obviously, is super unique. And

37:48

we can get into that in a

37:53

second, but I read that you had

37:53

an original design, and that

37:59

mock up was shortlisted for the

37:59

Mac First Book Award, but then

38:04

you ended up collaborating with

38:04

Hans Gremmen with FW books and

38:08

Light Work they both co

38:08

published a final design that

38:11

Hans came up with or that you

38:11

enhance came up with together.

38:15

Can you talk about the differences between the two designs and why you wanted to

38:17

push the original concept

38:20

further?

38:21

Yeah, in 2017,

38:21

so I was, I was pretty much done

38:25

with the project in 2017. And I

38:25

went to Light Work, I applied to

38:30

Light Work to come with all my

38:30

work and you know, in these like

38:33

seven hard drives and, and put a

38:33

book dummy together. Um, so I

38:42

actually ended up continuing the

38:42

project because Parkland

38:45

happened, and that was a chapter

38:45

I really needed to include, but,

38:49

but at that point, what, um, you

38:49

know, I was still thinking

38:52

really visually, and I made

38:52

this, I made my first my first

38:58

design was still leaning into

38:58

the media. So the way that I had

39:06

it was, it was like, all the all

39:06

the different schools were

39:11

blended together. It wasn't one

39:11

It wasn't chronological, the way

39:14

that we ended up doing it. In

39:14

Hans's version. Everything was

39:19

mixed together. And it was there

39:19

were a lot of these tip-ins

39:23

there are a lot of these, these

39:23

media clips that I printed on

39:26

newsprint and and replicated,

39:26

because I had collected so much,

39:31

so much material from newspapers

39:31

and magazines and an online

39:36

archives. And I printed them

39:36

out. And I curated them so that

39:42

I was hoping, my hope was that

39:42

as you're going through the

39:46

book, you know, you start out

39:46

and just starts with these quiet

39:48

landscapes. And then you start

39:48

to see these media clips come

39:52

in, and eventually they started

39:52

to pile up over each other but

39:58

that they were all from

39:58

different shooting. And, and as

40:02

he went through that, I really

40:02

my hope was that the reader

40:06

would actually look closely at

40:06

the, at the media clips, because

40:10

there were different texts that

40:10

I put together that were kind of

40:15

who were connected. And you

40:15

start to find, you know, if you

40:19

do a close reading of these

40:19

clips, you start to make these

40:24

connections and find these

40:24

patterns. And, you know, it

40:28

talks about a lot of the ideas

40:28

that end up, you know, about

40:32

grief, and you know, the, the

40:32

repetition, and just the, the

40:42

way that we collectively respond

40:42

to these, and these shootings,

40:46

and there were other there are

40:46

other things at that point,

40:49

other ideas floating around that

40:49

I was trying to connect. And

40:53

then and then you start to see

40:53

these artifacts, come come into

40:58

the book, and eventually the

40:58

artifacts overwhelm the

41:01

landscape. And, and, and it just

41:01

an escalated like the

41:08

exponentially, you just start

41:08

seeing more and more and more of

41:11

this material that I collected

41:11

from the archives, these

41:14

photographs of you know, the

41:14

different artifacts that I found

41:17

these archives. And I was

41:17

actually really happy with that

41:21

book, I thought it was it was a

41:21

much more poetic approach than

41:26

what we ended up with. And but

41:26

the, the issue I had with it

41:32

was, you know, I made this book,

41:32

and I had, I had somebody

41:37

actually like hand bind a few

41:37

copies for me. And then I went

41:42

around and showed it to people.

41:42

And I happen to have, you know,

41:46

most of my community at that

41:46

point. And still, actually, I

41:50

think most of my community is in

41:50

Europe, because we lived in

41:53

Istanbul so long, and we have a

41:53

lot of friends there. And I

41:57

happen to have, I can't remember

41:57

why actually, why was I out

42:04

there, I had to go to, to

42:04

Germany for some reason. And I

42:08

think it's for a job. So I went

42:08

out there and I took my book

42:11

with me. And, and then I did

42:11

like a little tour and I visited

42:15

all my friends in Europe, I went

42:15

to Germany, I went to a friend

42:19

in Paris, and then I spent some

42:19

time in London to see some

42:24

friends and I bought my book,

42:24

and I just showed it to

42:26

everyone. And as I was going to

42:26

these places, I would reach out

42:29

to them and say, Hey, I'd love

42:29

to show this to you know, is

42:31

there anyone else I could show

42:31

this to and, and I got to show

42:33

to a lot of writers, curators,

42:33

photographers. And, you know, as

42:39

I was showing it to my friends,

42:39

and my peers, I saw as I was

42:45

watching them look through the

42:45

book, they would just skip over

42:50

like they were taking it in as a

42:50

photo book. And I really, the

42:54

text was really important for me

42:54

for the the reader to really

42:59

engage with. And then at the

42:59

end, I forgot one last thing.

43:03

There are all these short

43:03

vignettes, these little short

43:05

stories that I had, I had

43:05

compiled these stories within

43:09

the larger narrative that I had

43:09

found over the years, you know,

43:12

as I'm digging through these

43:12

archives, and all this research,

43:15

and I compiled these vignettes

43:15

at the end. So there's a series

43:19

of short stories at the end of

43:19

the book. And now those short

43:22

stories are, are integrated into

43:22

the book much more fluidly. But

43:25

at that point, my photographer

43:25

friends were just kind of

43:28

looking through it and, and see

43:28

seeing it as a photo book

43:31

primarily and not as a book of

43:31

photos with text. And that

43:35

really bothered me and I felt

43:35

like a lot was being missed in

43:38

the reading because this is you

43:38

really to really get something

43:42

out of this you have to engage

43:42

with interviews, you have to

43:44

engage with the media clips,

43:44

with the journals with the these

43:49

like little vignettes, you have

43:49

to read the you have to read

43:52

some of the letters that are you

43:52

know, in in that second part of

43:58

the book and that like hidden

43:58

part of the book, you really

44:00

have to engage with, with the

44:00

words and and no one was really

44:04

doing that. And I and I could

44:04

tell that they were left feeling

44:09

kind of gypped like oh, here you

44:09

did this massive project about

44:12

school shootings. But what's

44:12

what's going on? Like, what's it

44:15

about? Like, I don't get it.

44:17

Right. So even

44:17

though like you personally were

44:20

proud of what you'd put together

44:20

and that it was, you know, very

44:23

lyrical, it wasn't achieving

44:23

what you wanted it to for the

44:29

viewer.

44:29

It wasn't

44:29

communicating. But you know,

44:32

what I found was interesting was

44:32

when I would sit down with a

44:36

writer and to show them the

44:36

book, they they or a curator

44:39

they spent much more time trying

44:39

to understand okay, why are

44:43

these media clips together?

44:43

What's in these texts? And maybe

44:47

that you know, because we were

44:47

sitting there together, they

44:51

weren't reading them in depth.

44:51

They were definitely scanning

44:55

them and reading a lot more than

44:55

my photographer friends. And

44:59

that's when I realized okay,

44:59

this needs a total redesign.

45:03

This needs to have the texts be

45:03

much more integrated or even be

45:07

the primary reading of, of the

45:07

book. And eventually, you know,

45:11

with Hans, we ended up finding a

45:11

happy medium, where where the

45:16

text and the imagery are kind of

45:16

hand in hand taking equal part,

45:20

importance, but it took us a

45:20

little bit to get there and, but

45:24

I knew that the texts and the

45:24

interviews needed to be

45:27

presented in a way that the

45:27

reader would engage with them

45:31

and I knew it was going to be

45:31

difficult is going to be

45:35

difficult sell and I don't mean

45:35

sell as in like, people aren't

45:39

gonna buy the book. I mean, like

45:39

it's gonna, it was gonna be in a

45:43

difficult, it was gonna be a

45:43

challenging book. Because it's

45:47

gonna be released as a photo

45:47

book, because primarily, I'm a

45:51

photographer. I tried to get

45:51

some, like academic presses and

45:55

some other types of book

45:55

publishers interested in the

45:58

work because I thought, wow,

45:58

what if, like, you know, I get

46:02

like a, I don't know, some,

46:02

like, text publisher to publish

46:06

a photo book. I thought maybe it

46:06

could get an audience of readers

46:11

that, you know, that would look

46:11

at the text primarily, but I

46:15

wasn't able to do that. It's

46:15

just too too many photographs.

46:18

But um, but yeah, then I you

46:18

know, then I remembered when I

46:22

when I realized I needed to

46:22

redesign. I remembered Hans. I

46:26

had met Hans years ago, like

46:26

years before in Germany and

46:30

really loved his imprint. And I

46:30

think he does a, he's a great

46:34

designer, when text is involved,

46:34

and...

46:37

He is..., I just

46:37

need to do a Hans gushing

46:42

moment, I interviewed him for

46:42

the podcast, and we talked about

46:45

your book a bit. And I am now co

46:45

publishing a second project with

46:53

him. And he is a genius.

46:57

Oh, I love him, yeah.

46:59

I think Doug

46:59

Dubois first introduced me to

47:02

him, because he did My Last Day

47:02

at 17. And, and just seeing that

47:08

book, and there were a couple of

47:08

other ones. And it just, I

47:12

always say like, he's just next

47:12

level. And then there's next

47:17

next level. It's like, if I had

47:17

my entire life to design a

47:22

wedding dress, like it would be

47:22

white, but it wouldn't look like

47:26

a Vera Wang, you know, like,

47:26

just the level of you know,

47:30

detail and thoughtfulness, it

47:30

just so he is...

47:36

Yeah, he is brilliant.

47:37

He is brilliant!

47:37

And your book is just like, the

47:43

shining example of like, where,

47:43

like, if I could just access

47:48

1/10th of his brain, you know, I

47:48

would be.... (laughs) It's

47:54

unbelievable, just that unlock

47:54

that he can do?

47:57

Absolutely. And

47:57

I mean, I've I felt, I when I

48:01

sent him the work, actually, I'd

48:01

sent him the work a little bit

48:05

earlier, because I just wanted

48:05

his opinion about it. And I

48:09

never thought he would be

48:09

interested in publishing it. But

48:11

we had had, you know, a

48:11

correspondence on other stuff in

48:16

the past and I was like, I wonder what Hans would think about this idea. At that point,

48:18

I was struggling with one

48:20

particular idea. Not in the book

48:20

design, but early on, when I was

48:27

thinking about, you know, this

48:27

one hurdle, that I was toying

48:31

with on the project. And I was

48:31

Oh I wonder what Hans would

48:33

think. And he, of course, he

48:33

gave like, you know, really

48:35

brilliant feedback. But, yeah, I

48:35

remember, you know, when I, when

48:40

I realized I needed to redesign,

48:40

I reached out to him, I was

48:43

like, Hey, I've got this messy,

48:43

messy project. Here's here, I'm

48:50

gonna send you a bunch of like,

48:50

I sent him a PDF. He's like,

48:52

Sure, it's send me some

48:52

material, let me see. I just

48:55

sent him these folders, you

48:55

know, I tried to organize them

48:57

as I could. But I had collected

48:57

so much material. And the great

49:05

thing about about it was that he

49:05

came back and he's, he's excited

49:12

to work with me on it. But I can

49:12

tell that he had really studied

49:15

what I compiled, like he had, it

49:15

wasn't just like, you know, he

49:19

looked at some pictures and

49:19

thought, oh, this might be fun,

49:22

or this might be interesting to

49:22

work on. He came back and I know

49:25

he had read the interviews. I

49:25

know he read some of the letters

49:28

and like the all these little

49:28

short stories like he really

49:31

spent time reading and I think

49:31

you know, sometimes I kind of he

49:35

is kind of like the scholar of

49:35

the all the you know, those

49:38

Dutch designers in a way, but

49:38

yeah, then, you know, he came

49:45

back and he's like, I'm I'm busy

49:45

right now, but I I want to work

49:48

with you on this and he

49:48

disappeared for a little while.

49:52

And then finally is like okay, I

49:52

have some time like a few months

49:54

laters like I have some time to

49:54

work on this. I'm gonna give it

49:58

a thought and then again, then

49:58

he like disappeared. For like,

50:00

almost six weeks, I was like,

50:00

what's going on?

50:03

He has like

50:03

fallen into a hole. (laughs)

50:07

And then

50:07

suddenly, he's, he sent me like

50:10

this video. And He's, um, you

50:10

know, he sent me this video of

50:16

like this little dummy that he

50:16

had created. That was just a

50:20

blank, it was just a blank book.

50:20

There was no pictures in it, it

50:24

was just like, just the just the

50:24

binding, he sent me a picture or

50:28

a video of just the binding.

50:32

And then did your brain explode?

50:33

Yeah. Oh, and I

50:33

was like, oh my god, this is

50:36

brilliant. It's perfect. It's

50:36

like, you know, and in that same

50:39

video, like, I think he recorded

50:39

it much later. But, um, but he

50:43

put two videos together. And in

50:43

that same video, he showed me

50:47

like, here's like, a really

50:47

rough, you know, with some

50:51

pictures and like, the

50:51

interviews, but it was just such

50:55

a brilliant, just such a

50:55

brilliant fix to this problem

51:01

that the material had. And, and

51:01

just wrapped around, you know, I

51:06

mean, everything about it was

51:06

the way it feels like this pile

51:10

of papers, it feels like a

51:10

forensic...

51:14

Yeah, like a folder.

51:15

Yeah and you

51:15

know, I love that the the two

51:19

tiers of, you know, these really

51:19

quiet landscapes and as you're

51:23

going through it, you know, you

51:23

have to, you have to choose to

51:27

like open the book, you can

51:27

easily just breeze through it,

51:30

and not open it and not choose

51:30

to engage with the trauma and

51:35

way the language that, that the

51:35

landscapes almost become

51:40

radioactive in a way as you're

51:40

going through it. And it just,

51:45

it all just fell, fell together

51:45

so brilliantly. I was, you know,

51:49

I was really excited about it.

51:49

And then we went back and start

51:52

editing and deciding, you know,

51:52

we decided to, like, make it

51:56

chronological. And then we went

51:56

through and edited the images

52:01

and, and the structure of where

52:01

the vignettes would go, and

52:07

which vignettes to use. Because

52:07

I collected so much, I'd

52:12

photographed so many artifacts,

52:12

so much of the memorabilia we

52:15

went through and decided which

52:15

ones we should include and which

52:18

was more important.

52:20

Yeah, he's great

52:20

with working with a lot of

52:22

volume, I feel like because my

52:22

impulse is always to like, Oh,

52:26

we've got to trim this down, you

52:26

know, significantly and then

52:30

even in the project, I'm working

52:30

with him right now called This

52:36

Is Bliss and he/we as similarly

52:36

the artist John Horvath has

52:43

collected just so many different

52:43

ways to represent his work, this

52:50

project and Hans just went big.

52:50

Like it is a thick, thick, book.

52:58

But like it came back similar

52:58

like he, you know, went away for

53:02

a couple months and then came

53:02

back with this insane mock up

53:08

that again, just like wow, I

53:08

wouldn't have gotten there. You

53:12

know, so Right.

53:14

Yeah, I love I

53:14

love how he does he doesn't shy

53:17

away from big you know, from

53:17

including a lot. The book that

53:21

really moved me when I was

53:21

thinking about this was, um,

53:25

when I was thinking about

53:25

working with him was Edges of

53:27

the Experiment where it's like

53:27

this double book, and it's just

53:30

filled with material, with all

53:30

this text. It's so heavy. Yeah,

53:36

I was like, Okay, I gotta, I gotta...

53:39

This guy can handle it. (laughs)

53:41

Do some voodoo on this guy, so he works with me.

53:43

Right, right.

53:43

Switching gears a little bit, I

53:49

was I wanted to talk about, you

53:49

know, you talked about Carolyn,

53:53

and what it's like having

53:53

another photographer as a

53:57

partner, like, how do you feel

53:57

having that in house

54:01

collaborator in a way and

54:01

thought partner has impacted

54:05

your work?

54:08

Um, sometimes I

54:08

feel like we're one brain. It's

54:14

hard to like, know, where my, my

54:14

thoughts end or start and hers

54:23

end and start.

54:24

It's like Calvin

54:24

Klein commercial. Remember?

54:27

Like, I don't know where I began

54:27

and you end. Eternity Eternity.

54:33

(laughs)

54:34

Yeah. Right. I

54:34

mean, it is a bit of a cliche,

54:37

but it really does feel that way

54:37

sometimes. And we've been

54:41

together for like, 20 years. So,

54:41

you know, we we've been through

54:47

a lot, moved a lot of places,

54:47

lived a lot of places and worked

54:52

on a lot of projects together

54:52

and a part and I mean, you know,

54:56

it's, I know that like her, you

54:56

know, Carolyn's got her bylines,

55:01

like, and I've got my bylines,

55:01

but really, it's our

55:07

relationship, our working

55:07

relationship is just one big

55:09

collaboration, we're constantly

55:09

asking each other to look over

55:13

work and, you know, giving each

55:13

other ideas and knocking down

55:21

ideas and telling us when we're

55:21

full of shit, and you know, when

55:24

we've got a brilliant, you know,

55:24

start on something, and it's

55:30

just, it's, it's very fluid. I

55:30

mean, I don't, I mean, it's

55:40

really hard to answer because

55:40

it's like, it's like,

55:42

everything, like, it's all so

55:42

organic, and, and messy, and,

55:51

you know, we fight a lot about

55:51

our work. And, you know, Carolyn

55:56

gives me a lot of feedback. And

55:56

my, always my default is like,

56:00

you have no idea what you're talking about, you do not understand at all, you know, go

56:02

away. And then an hour later,

56:07

like the next step, I'm like

56:07

Ahhh shit, she's totally right.

56:13

She's like, I'll wait.

56:15

So, you know,

56:15

um, yeah, it's, it's great. I

56:20

mean, I think, I think the

56:20

challenge is not the

56:25

collaboration, but like, Okay,

56:25

how, like, how do we establish

56:29

our own identities? And we do, I

56:29

mean, I think, ultimately do but

56:37

there's always, you know,

56:37

sometimes, like, we see each

56:41

other doing something, we're

56:41

like, oh, I want to try that.

56:43

And it's, there's like, you, you

56:43

got to kind of resist, you

56:46

gotta, you know, let the other

56:46

person has space. And, and to

56:50

keep, you know, have their own

56:50

identity creatively. But, but,

56:57

you know, ultimately, it's, it's

56:57

been like, it's been really

57:01

great to have someone to turn

57:01

to. The downside might be that

57:06

we are obsessive about work, and

57:06

we don't really have, it's hard

57:14

to find, it's hard to remember

57:14

to have a life outside of

57:18

work...

57:18

Because you

57:18

don't have other hobbies. Right?

57:21

Yeah. Because we don't have a partner that's like, you know, involved in

57:22

other things and can kind of pull us away. We become so

57:24

immersed in, in project Life and

57:30

work life that it's hard to

57:30

detach, and remember to, like,

57:34

you know, escape into the woods

57:34

once in a while and find our

57:38

humanity in, you know, different

57:38

places and different landscapes,

57:42

and different intellectual

57:42

landscapes. So, you know, the

57:45

other thing is, we have a lot of

57:45

photographer friends, so we're

57:48

trying to diversify so that we

57:48

have friends that are like

57:52

bringing us into their communities.

58:00

That makes

58:00

sense. And so I always asked

58:05

these questions at the end. So I

58:05

wanted to put them to you. What

58:10

has been the best career

58:10

decision you've made so far?

58:16

Um, my best

58:16

career decision was going abroad

58:21

on a Fulbright in 2007. That's

58:21

probably my, that was probably

58:33

the most pivotal moment of my

58:33

career. Because before that, I

58:38

was working in newspapers, and

58:38

I, you know, I knew I wanted to

58:42

break out of that I didn't know

58:42

how. I had, you know, I went to

58:46

grad school in photojournalism,

58:46

I'd come from a very

58:50

journalistic background, and I

58:50

still consider myself a

58:52

journalist to some, to some

58:52

extent. I think I break from

58:59

ethics, so maybe a little bit by

58:59

reinterpreting the material that

59:04

I researched, or that I'm kind

59:04

of compiling as I work but I do

59:12

have roots in journalism and

59:12

documentary photography. But

59:17

when I was working at these

59:17

newspapers, as I was working in

59:20

newspapers for a couple years in

59:20

Florida, and I just felt that it

59:25

was limiting, it was just too

59:25

narrow. Creatively, I felt

59:30

limited. And I also felt that

59:30

there wasn't enough room for

59:40

complexity, as a visual

59:40

storyteller, there's not really

59:44

enough room to really complicate

59:44

things and to leave open endings

59:48

and everything felt the need to

59:48

be nice and tidy, too nice and

59:54

tidy. And so I tried to find you

59:54

know, as as I was working these

59:57

newspapers, I was also making

59:57

work on the side, I bought a

1:00:01

medium format camera so that I

1:00:01

could really separate myself

1:00:04

from my, you know, from my day

1:00:04

job. But Carolyn, first, she

1:00:13

applied for a Fulbright in 2005.

1:00:13

And that was just supposed to be

1:00:17

a year long thing, then we're

1:00:17

gonna come back and you know, I

1:00:19

was, didn't think it was going

1:00:19

to be like this huge life shift.

1:00:24

But when she went abroad, I went

1:00:24

with her. And maybe that was a

1:00:29

decision and actually made the

1:00:29

decision to go with Carolyn to

1:00:32

Ukraine, because there was a moment where I thought I was gonna stay back, I had a job, I

1:00:34

can, you know, come and visit

1:00:37

and just be a year, we will, you

1:00:37

know, do long distance. But I

1:00:41

decided to go with her. And, and

1:00:41

while I was there, I also

1:00:45

applied for my own Fulbright in

1:00:45

Istanbul, because we decided we

1:00:48

wanted to stay abroad and figure

1:00:48

stuff out. And we were enjoying

1:00:54

our time experiencing like this

1:00:54

other culture and, and I think

1:00:58

is like, leaving the US and

1:00:58

moving to this city that was

1:01:05

filled with artists and

1:01:05

journalists and writers from all

1:01:10

over Europe, that really

1:01:10

expanded my idea of what art can

1:01:17

be, what photography can be,

1:01:17

what storytelling can be. There

1:01:22

was I had a lot of issues living

1:01:22

abroad, and making work abroad.

1:01:28

Because, you know, if my, if my

1:01:28

roots were in journalism, the

1:01:35

ability to actually talk to

1:01:35

people, which was so integral to

1:01:38

my process, before leaving the

1:01:38

US, that was completely gone.

1:01:43

Because there was cultural

1:01:43

barriers, there was a language

1:01:45

barrier. And I really struggled

1:01:45

with that. And Carolyn struggled

1:01:48

with it too. We, we ended up

1:01:48

dealing with in very different

1:01:51

ways. Carolyn, leaned into

1:01:51

collaboration with her work. And

1:01:56

I actually, my work, I ended up

1:01:56

drifting further and further

1:02:00

away from, from people in my

1:02:00

images. And in the first project

1:02:03

I, I made that turned into a

1:02:03

book is actually very, it's very

1:02:09

devoid of people, it's mostly

1:02:09

landscape and small still life

1:02:14

images, because I just never was

1:02:14

able to reconcile that thing

1:02:17

that I really needed or

1:02:17

reconcile the fact that I really

1:02:22

needed connection with people,

1:02:22

and I wasn't really getting it.

1:02:29

And I learned Turkish.

1:02:31

What?!?

1:02:32

Yeah, when I... With the

1:02:33

Fulbright, you know, you immerse

1:02:33

That sounds hard. yourself in the language. And so

1:02:36

I learned Turkish, and was able

1:02:39

I can imagine. Can you talk

1:02:39

about a wrong turn you made? Or

1:02:42

to communicate, for the most

1:02:42

part, but was still really

1:02:46

basic, I wasn't really able to,

1:02:46

like, you know, understand the

1:02:51

nuances in the conversations I

1:02:51

was having. And so, I struggled

1:02:56

with that, um, but being abroad,

1:02:56

and really, you know, meeting

1:03:02

all these different artists from

1:03:02

all these different backgrounds

1:03:07

and realizing that there's this

1:03:07

whole other world out there of

1:03:12

international thinking around

1:03:12

art and creativity and

1:03:16

storytelling, I started to

1:03:16

realize that, you know, American

1:03:21

storytelling felt a little

1:03:21

narrow, I felt like, you know,

1:03:26

there's a certain canon and

1:03:26

tradition of photography that is

1:03:31

very prevalent in the US, and,

1:03:31

and it was good to break out of

1:03:36

that. So, so that was probably

1:03:36

the most pivotal moment in my

1:03:41

career. Yeah. that you feel at the time felt

1:03:48

wrong? And what you learned from

1:03:52

it? A wrong turn...

1:03:55

Yeah, just a

1:03:55

decision that at the time,

1:03:58

you're like, maybe that wasn't the right way to go.

1:04:01

I don't know if

1:04:01

I really believe in wrong turns.

1:04:05

I don't have any regrets.

1:04:05

Because, you know, sometimes I'm

1:04:09

like, oh, I should have gone to art school instead of photojournalism school. But

1:04:11

actually, I'm really happy I

1:04:13

didn't go to art school.

1:04:15

Yeah, because everything kind of led you to where you are now.

1:04:17

Yeah. And you

1:04:17

know, I've had a really I've had

1:04:20

a lot of really incredible

1:04:20

experiences because of the path

1:04:23

that I took. And and I wouldn't,

1:04:23

you know, if I would have gone

1:04:27

to an art school in the US, I

1:04:27

feel like it could have been a

1:04:31

trap into another way of

1:04:31

thinking that I appreciate now

1:04:37

as an outsider. And you know,

1:04:37

the, the free education you can

1:04:41

get online now is kind of

1:04:41

amazing. I spend a lot of time

1:04:45

kind of relearning a lot of

1:04:45

things through podcasts like

1:04:50

yours, or, you know, YouTube

1:04:50

lectures, but, you know, I think

1:04:55

one one thing that I felt while

1:04:55

I was in the moment, maybe I

1:05:02

felt like it wasn't the right

1:05:02

choice. And I wish maybe I could

1:05:05

have researched a little more.

1:05:05

And again, when I say this with

1:05:09

kind of... I say this very

1:05:09

lightly because it's, I don't

1:05:14

completely feel it, but just to

1:05:14

to answer your question,

1:05:16

because, you know, when I went

1:05:16

to grad school, I didn't really

1:05:20

research what grad schools I

1:05:20

could go to. And I followed the

1:05:28

lead that my mentor.... I did

1:05:28

this workshop, in Portland,

1:05:32

Maine, a photo workshop. It's

1:05:32

really where I learned that

1:05:36

documentary photography was a

1:05:36

thing. But before that, I really

1:05:41

loved taking pictures. This is

1:05:41

when I, after I graduated from

1:05:44

college, I went abroad for a

1:05:44

year and a half, I was teaching

1:05:47

in Namibia. And I always really

1:05:47

wanted to be a writer. And so I

1:05:53

went, and I thought, I need to,

1:05:53

like, go and see the world. So I

1:05:56

took this teaching position in

1:05:56

Namibia for a year and a half

1:06:00

and, and was writing and writing

1:06:00

and thinking, you know, I wanted

1:06:06

to be some kind of like,

1:06:06

journalist, but I was also

1:06:10

taking pictures and photography

1:06:10

ended up being a much more

1:06:13

natural way for me to express my

1:06:13

experiences there somehow. So I

1:06:17

came back and I did a workshop

1:06:17

in Portland, Maine, at the Salt

1:06:21

Institute for Documentary

1:06:21

Studies, that is now defunct.

1:06:26

But when I was there, my mentor,

1:06:26

you know, I said, I don't know

1:06:29

what to do next. What do I do?

1:06:29

He's like, go to photojournalism

1:06:31

school, and get a job in

1:06:31

newspaper, you know, you'll have

1:06:35

a job as a photographer. I was

1:06:35

like, oh, that sounds amazing.

1:06:38

Like, I'll have a job in

1:06:38

photography, holy shit. And so

1:06:42

I, I ended up applying to Ohio

1:06:42

University, which is/was one of

1:06:46

the top photojournalism schools

1:06:46

at that time. As a grad student,

1:06:49

that's where I'm met Carolyn.

1:06:49

So, you know, maybe I may regret

1:06:53

having gone there. I do not

1:06:53

regret going on, because I

1:06:57

wouldn't have met Carlin. But,

1:06:57

but while I was there, I

1:07:01

definitely, I definitely

1:07:01

realized quickly, it wasn't

1:07:04

really what I wanted to do. And,

1:07:04

and, you know, the other thing

1:07:11

that kind of sucks, you know, I

1:07:11

did meet some really interesting

1:07:14

people there. And I learned a

1:07:14

lot about the tools around

1:07:20

photography. So like, how to use

1:07:20

Photoshop and how to use

1:07:23

InDesign. Not that I couldn't

1:07:23

have learned that. But I was

1:07:32

able, you know, the good thing

1:07:32

about is that I walked out and I

1:07:34

was able to, like, shoot a

1:07:34

magazine story. And that, you

1:07:37

know, that helped with

1:07:37

freelancing, but I didn't walk

1:07:40

out of there with an MFA so I

1:07:40

could actually get a teaching

1:07:43

job, like a tenured teaching

1:07:43

job. And that's been a real

1:07:48

struggle, because as my work has

1:07:48

drifted further and further away

1:07:51

from editorial, the editorial

1:07:51

style and less work as a

1:07:56

magazine photographer, because I

1:07:56

was really living off that for a

1:07:59

long time. But as my work has

1:07:59

been drifting off, away from

1:08:03

that kind of photography, I've

1:08:03

had a hard time, you know,

1:08:07

financially supporting myself.

1:08:07

So I really want to teach. I've

1:08:10

taught at a few different

1:08:10

schools and really loved it. As

1:08:14

an adjunct, but I just can't

1:08:14

seem to find a place that I can,

1:08:20

you know, get a full time

1:08:20

teaching position. So maybe like

1:08:24

a wrong turn, I would say is

1:08:24

like, not realizing that I would

1:08:27

want to teach in the future. You

1:08:27

know, not getting an MFA. But

1:08:32

that said, you know, I'm piecing

1:08:32

things together here and there

1:08:35

and like, you know, it's been

1:08:35

part of my creative process.

1:08:41

Part of my creative life has

1:08:41

also been, you know, finding

1:08:45

creative ways to support myself.

1:08:45

So, now, you know, it's like, I

1:08:49

do a little photo editing, I

1:08:49

teach an adjunct, you know, as

1:08:51

an adjunct professor, I'll, you

1:08:51

know, sell some prints. I'll do

1:08:56

maybe a portrait or two for a

1:08:56

magazine. Work, as you know, um,

1:09:02

I don't know, Carolyn and I will

1:09:02

do a workshop together. So

1:09:06

that's, that's been, you know,

1:09:06

the thing that's the other side

1:09:10

of the hustle.

1:09:11

Yeah. You know,

1:09:11

the hustle is real.

1:09:13

Yeah, definitely.

1:09:15

My last question

1:09:15

is, how do you define success

1:09:19

for yourself?

1:09:21

I, you know, I

1:09:21

really put a lot importance to

1:09:26

learning. I think success for me

1:09:26

is when I feel immersed in

1:09:36

something where I'm learning and

1:09:36

being educated. I think that's

1:09:44

where I feel like I'm

1:09:44

succeeding.

1:09:48

Like you're kind of hitting on all cylinders.

1:09:50

Yeah, like when

1:09:50

I feel like really invigorated

1:09:55

with when I'm really engaged

1:09:55

with my mind and immersing

1:09:59

myself in a project or in, in a

1:09:59

stream of thought, or a text,

1:10:05

and feeling like, I'm starting

1:10:05

to make connections and, and

1:10:11

build, something's building,

1:10:11

whether it's physical or just in

1:10:16

my mind, something is growing. I

1:10:16

feel like that's, that's

1:10:21

success. It's so hard to get

1:10:21

there for me, it's hard to find

1:10:27

time where you're not just

1:10:27

being, you know, swallowed up by

1:10:31

the pressures of just living and

1:10:31

you're taking care of yourself

1:10:36

and, and surviving. If I have

1:10:36

time, to allow myself to really

1:10:45

be immersed in thought, I think

1:10:45

that's, that's when I feel like

1:10:50

I'm succeeding. Because I've,

1:10:50

I've made a life where I or at

1:10:55

least I'm finding a way to find

1:10:55

a life where that is part of it.

1:11:01

Yeah, I love it.

1:11:01

Thank you for listening to the

1:11:05

Perfect Bound podcast. I'm

1:11:05

Jennifer Yoffy. You can listen

1:11:10

to previous episodes by going on

1:11:10

to the Yoffy Press website. You

1:11:14

can also find this podcast on

1:11:14

Spotify, Apple podcasts, or any

1:11:19

other podcast streaming

1:11:19

platform. And if you love it,

1:11:22

which I hope you do, please go

1:11:22

on to one of those places and

1:11:26

give it all the stars. Thank you

1:11:26

so much again, and I'll see you

1:11:29

next time. This is so wonderful.

1:11:35

Oh, sure, it was fun.

1:11:36

I had a thought

1:11:36

you had talked about microfiche

1:11:42

earlier. That's still a thing?

1:11:46

Yeah, yeah, you

1:11:46

can go to any library and go

1:11:48

through their microfiche. Yeah.

1:11:50

When I was in

1:11:50

fifth grade, I had this

1:11:54

entrepreneurial little club, it

1:11:54

was like me and three friends

1:11:58

that I bossed around because of

1:11:58

course I was the president and

1:12:02

one of the girls had a bunch of

1:12:02

the microfiche little, you know,

1:12:08

it's blue, and like kind of

1:12:08

transparent. And we made

1:12:11

sunglasses out of them with

1:12:11

like, potholder loops on the

1:12:17

side.

1:12:17

Oh cool.

1:12:17

Yeah. And we

1:12:17

were selling them in elementary

1:12:20

school and really rocking it in

1:12:20

until some horrible person we

1:12:27

sold them to took him to her eye

1:12:27

doctor, who said that they could

1:12:31

really mess up your eyes and it

1:12:31

really put us out of business.

1:12:34

Oh noooo.

1:12:35

Yeah, but I

1:12:35

haven't thought about microfiche

1:12:37

since then.

1:12:38

Wow.

1:12:40

Yeah, yeah. So

1:12:40

don't don't make sunglasses out

1:12:43

of them. Not a good, not a good

1:12:43

business model.

1:12:47

It's good to know good.

1:12:48

Yeah, yeah, word

1:12:48

to the wise, don't incorporate

1:12:51

it in the hustle. (laughs)