0:00

Personology is a production of I Heart

0:02

Radio. Hi.

0:14

I'm Dr Gail Saltz, and this is

0:16

Personology. Today.

0:19

We're going to be speaking about Howard

0:21

Robart Hughes, Jr. He

0:25

was, in his lifetime one of

0:27

the most financially successful men

0:29

in the world. He was an

0:31

American businessman, but he was also

0:34

a film director and producer. He

0:36

was also an engineer and

0:39

a record setting pilot. He

0:42

also gave away a good amount of his money

0:44

as a philanthropist, but he

0:46

also came to be known as

0:49

reclusive and eccentric,

0:51

which probably had to do with his psychiatric

0:54

illness obsessive compulsive

0:56

disorder. My guest

0:58

joining me today is James

1:00

B. Steele. He's a

1:02

Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and best

1:05

selling author, and he is the

1:07

co author of the book Howard

1:09

Hughes, His Life and

1:12

Madness. Howard

1:19

Hughes was born in nine five,

1:22

perhaps on Christmas Eve, although that seems

1:24

that I documents say different things. But we'll

1:26

say Christmas Eve in Humble,

1:29

Texas, which is kind of ironic

1:32

for a man who was anything but humble

1:35

or Houston, Texas. It sounds

1:37

like I think it was Houston, because

1:40

you know, one of the mysteries of his life

1:42

is that his birth certificate was never

1:44

found, and it was only when he in

1:47

World War Two came around that his aunts

1:50

had to verify as to when he was born and

1:52

where the birth took place. So it's

1:55

just typical of a man who lived his whole life with

1:57

mystery that we don't even have a real

1:59

birth certificate for that is pretty

2:01

fascinating in it of itself, a man who would

2:03

ultimately come to be a mysterious figure

2:06

in so many ways. An only

2:08

child, two

2:11

parents who really

2:14

didn't have much to start

2:17

with, but whose father

2:19

And this is just interesting, you know, when you think about

2:22

what's nature and what's nurture, that's

2:25

a big question in the life of Howard

2:27

Hughes, and that his father had nothing.

2:30

But his father, who was originally

2:32

from Missouri, discovered,

2:34

or let you say, designed, built

2:37

a drill bit to drill

2:40

oil, that's correct, and it revolutionized

2:43

the oil industry because prior to the

2:45

invention of this drill bit, conventional

2:48

drills were basically destroyed

2:51

when they hit extremely hard rock formations.

2:54

So this particular drill devised a way

2:56

to go through those formations, and

2:58

in fact, it developed a fascinating name.

3:00

At the oil fields, people called it the rock

3:02

Eater because that's exactly what it

3:05

did, and revolutionized the oil industry

3:08

and ultimately made Howard you Senior,

3:10

Howard's father fabulously wealthy,

3:13

and that was actually the basis of his son's

3:15

fortune. What's also fascinating in terms

3:17

of what do you take away from your parents

3:20

and learn or what has to do with, you

3:22

know, innate intelligence. But he

3:24

not only built this thing and revolutionized

3:27

the industry, but he chose to a patent

3:30

and be rented, not

3:33

sell it, which really was

3:36

instrumental in not

3:38

only making his fortune but keeping

3:40

his fortune in the sense that

3:43

ultimately people were always dependent

3:45

on renting these pieces. No one else

3:47

could make these pieces, and so this became

3:51

really for life in many ways, a source

3:54

of Howard Hughes Junior's money.

3:56

Absolutely. And it's funny that the father

3:58

intuitively understood that the way you really

4:00

make money in business is to be a monopoly,

4:03

and that's an effect what he was, and

4:06

everybody in the oil industry was dependent on that,

4:08

and he fought vigorously for

4:11

years to protect that patent, to make sure nobody

4:13

else ripped it off, and then Howard continued

4:16

that same process, but you're absolutely right,

4:18

the leasing the renting of it assured

4:20

not just the father's fortune, but particularly

4:23

his sons. So fascinatingly,

4:25

Howard's father was

4:28

engineering, was very

4:30

intelligent and innovative and

4:33

business wise, intelligent,

4:36

innovative, and also somewhat ruthless

4:38

in his pursuit. He

4:41

was also described as a loner.

4:44

He didn't have very many friends himself.

4:46

The father, he was the businessman, and he

4:49

was away a lot. And that's

4:51

just interesting because those

4:53

words could be used to describe young

4:56

Howard as a boy exactly. Howard

4:59

was an only child and from early

5:01

on a loaner early on, very

5:03

interested in mechanical things. As

5:05

far as I could tell in all the research

5:08

we did for our book, he really only

5:10

had one friend from his childhood

5:13

and who basically was kind of his only real

5:15

friend. It was the son of

5:17

the fellow who had developed the tool

5:19

company drill Bit with Howard Sr. And

5:22

in fact they weren't in close contact. They didn't

5:24

correspond much. But many years later,

5:26

when Howard was famous, flown around the world,

5:28

created all kinds of achievements. He

5:30

was very unhappy with where he was in the

5:32

world. And he called Dudley,

5:35

this boyhood friend, and he said, Dudley,

5:38

I've just messed up my whole life. I've

5:40

messed it up terribly. And Dudley couldn't

5:42

figure out what he meant, because at

5:44

that point he was this famous aviator, this famous

5:47

designer of airplanes, fabulously

5:49

rich, Hollywood starlet's hanging off his arm.

5:51

Whatever he meant by that, Dudley had no idea.

5:53

But the point of my story on this is that

5:56

that, as far as I could tell, and all the research

5:58

we did, was his only him. He

6:01

had no siblings. His father was

6:03

away a lot with this business, so often

6:05

not home. His mother, on

6:07

the other hand, was a very different relationship. He

6:10

was very, very close

6:12

to his mother, you could say really

6:14

and what the term I, as

6:16

a psychiatrist would use a psychoanalysts

6:19

and meshed. It was hard to know where

6:21

one began and the other one ended. They

6:23

were that kind of close. And

6:25

it's important and interesting to note

6:27

that his mother is

6:30

described as being so

6:32

nurturing as to being babying,

6:34

being you know, sort of couldn't stop

6:36

nurturing him. Was fairly

6:39

intrusive with her nurturing. You will do

6:41

it this way, you need to wash this way,

6:43

you need to be healthy this way,

6:45

and that she had

6:47

a particular fear of germs

6:49

herself. She imparted

6:52

that concerns about

6:55

violent germs was the term she used,

6:57

which is an interesting personification

6:59

of germs as something though

7:02

to be really feared and that were

7:04

aggressive in her mind, something

7:06

that she seemed to pass on

7:09

to Howard. Again, it's always interesting

7:11

when we think about things like fears and phobias

7:14

or obsessions. The

7:16

impact of your environment

7:19

certainly is there, and we

7:21

know that about everything from simple phobias

7:24

to O c D. But it's

7:26

also true that things

7:28

like simple phobias and obsessive

7:30

compulsive disorder running families because there's

7:33

a genetic basis for it, and

7:35

we think there's something biologic as well. But she

7:38

was afraid of violent germs, and fairness to

7:40

her, there was a time of the real polio

7:43

outbreak where understandably a

7:45

lot of people were afraid about what you could

7:47

catch, and terrible things did happen. But

7:50

she would tell him to clean his body, try

7:53

to kind of control what he ate. He

7:55

needed to eat very curative foods,

7:58

and talk to him a lot about being sick

8:00

and be generally overinvolved, but he

8:03

describes really having this

8:05

close and nurturing relationship in a kind of

8:07

positive way. Right. Absolutely. I think

8:09

he was very close to her, and I think what you mentioned

8:12

earlier, the fact his father was away in

8:14

the oil fields selling the drill bit,

8:16

building up the company that would become this great

8:18

fortune. So they were together much

8:21

more than he was with the entire family. It's

8:23

true also that only children probably

8:26

get more attention than children who are

8:28

part of a multi child family.

8:30

But he had been sick as a child,

8:33

and the mother was

8:35

frankly obsessed by this. And some

8:37

of the most revealing letters we found

8:40

were when she finally got up the nerve to

8:42

let him go to camp when

8:44

he was a young teenager. They sent

8:46

him from Houston up to northeast Pennsylvania.

8:49

Houston those days there was no air conditioning,

8:51

unbelievably hot in the summertime. Human

8:54

also fear of malaria, other kinds

8:56

of problems, which on this day and age we

8:58

don't think of a place like that having that back

9:00

in those days, it was a real thing. So

9:03

she sent him to this camp up in Pennsylvania, and

9:05

she worried the whole time. She

9:07

would send letters to the fellow who was running

9:09

the camp watch out for Howard. If there's anybody

9:11

who's sick near him, would you make sure that

9:13

that boy gets isolated and I put

9:16

Howard somewhere else. I understand there's a polio

9:18

outbreak and that part of the world. Just

9:21

please take care of him. And you know Howard's

9:23

delicate makes you know this, that and

9:25

the other thing. So we have actual physical

9:28

evidence in these letters that she wrote repeatedly

9:30

to the fellow who ran the camp, saying,

9:33

I'm really concerned about him. Will you be concerned

9:35

about him? Will you take special

9:37

care to watch my boy because he needs

9:40

special care? Basically that's what she was saying.

9:42

In fact, she even had one time where she was

9:44

so anxious about this. She and her husband were in

9:46

New York. He was their own business. She said,

9:48

I have to I have to come see him, and she

9:50

apparently took the train to near the camp,

9:53

and whether or not they ever got together or not was

9:55

never revealed any of these records, but

9:57

it was an indication of just how on

10:00

the impulse wasn't her to protect him

10:02

and to worry about his condition. So it's hard

10:04

from Howard standpoint not to absorb

10:07

some of that concern in some of that

10:09

worry. I mean, you made such a good point at the beginning

10:11

about what's part of nature and what do you

10:13

pick up I'm paraphrasing you in

10:15

your environment. I think there's

10:17

an awful lot that probably both

10:20

those channels flowed into Howard. It's

10:22

worth noting that the way

10:24

his mother speaks and is described

10:27

that she herself may have had obsessive

10:29

compulsive disorder, her intense

10:32

concern about cleanliness and germs.

10:35

Of course those things weren't diagnosed in those days,

10:38

but that was a possibility, and that similarly

10:42

his father's mother, his grandmother,

10:45

is also described as having similar

10:48

concerns and fears,

10:51

which to have genetic loading from both

10:53

sides of your family with O c D makes

10:56

it not surprising at all that

10:58

you would struggle with it. You're absolutely the

11:00

grandmother on his father's side, I mean his father's

11:02

mother. They lived in kiakak, Iowa, and it

11:04

was on the Mississippi River. His father was kind

11:06

of a famous regional

11:09

lawyer for the railroads at the time,

11:12

and the grandmother had this terrible

11:14

fear of bugs and germans,

11:16

like being in the closets

11:19

and Howard spent quite a bit of time as

11:21

a boy with those grandparents. Whether

11:23

it was just for that visitor loan

11:25

or when he was passing through town not entirely

11:28

clear, but he saw first hand

11:30

some evidence of that particular thing

11:32

as well, and so it seems totally natural

11:34

to him by the time he's like fourteen or fifteen

11:37

years old, that people should be worried about these

11:39

things exactly. And let's talk about

11:41

him as a student. He was

11:44

by all accounts, extremely

11:46

mathematically minded and had

11:49

a propensity for the

11:51

kinds of sciences that lead to engineering.

11:54

While he seemed to have incredible aptitude,

11:57

he wasn't a very good student, right, which

12:00

sometimes happens with people who were quite

12:02

bright. As we all know, he wasn't

12:04

a particularly good student. He didn't

12:06

particularly like, as far as we could

12:08

tell, the organized activity

12:11

that was involved in being in a school. Even

12:13

how Hard was the ultimate loner, and being

12:15

in that kind of environment means you're part

12:17

of the community. But he was very interested

12:19

in engineering. He was very interested in mathematics

12:22

even and I believe elementary school

12:24

was they built some toy radio. This

12:27

at a time where there were not a lot of radios

12:29

around actually he built like the first

12:31

transistor sort of CB type

12:34

radio exactly and was in the

12:36

newspaper, was like eleven years old, and

12:38

it was a phenom in terms of

12:40

electrical engineering sorts of feats.

12:43

That was his instinct, and those were his instincts.

12:45

He was very comfortable with numbers, He

12:48

was very comfortable with the kinds of engineering

12:50

drawings, conceptual things of that sort.

12:53

So he was more at home with

12:55

them than it really was with people. And

12:57

he had already as a child, it sounds

12:59

like an interest in flying. That

13:02

was something that appealed to him in those early days.

13:04

And aviation was the

13:07

hot issue, I mean,

13:09

the most dramatic thing that was happening

13:12

in the world when he was a kid. I

13:14

mean, the Wright brothers were only I

13:16

guess a couple of years before he was born

13:18

and was kiddie hawk. And so from then

13:21

on there was one aviation advance after

13:23

another that formed part of that whole story. So

13:25

he sort of dove tailed perfectly

13:28

with his mathematics and the

13:30

possibility of flying. So it

13:32

was a natural thing that he would later evolve into

13:34

that particular field. At that point, his

13:36

father had made enough money for him

13:38

to do things that maybe most

13:41

boys in those days wouldn't have been able to afford

13:43

to do. He took flying

13:45

lessons basically as a teen, which

13:48

is pretty exciting, expensive venture,

13:51

certainly in those days, but

13:53

he already was sort of in pursuit

13:56

of that interest of his yes, And

13:58

after his mother died, his father spent

14:01

quite a bit of time on the West Coast in l

14:04

A, where a lot of the early aviation

14:06

industry was starting to shape up because

14:08

of year round moderate temperatures

14:10

where you could build certain kinds of things. So

14:13

before we get to his independence, let's

14:15

let's talk about for a minute about the death

14:17

of his parents, which happened

14:19

at an early age and created

14:22

a very odd scenario for him

14:24

as an only child. His

14:27

mother died he

14:29

was seventeen. He was away

14:31

at boarding school, and

14:34

she developed well what

14:36

turned out to be an ectopic pregnancy,

14:39

which was in those days often

14:41

deadly because they didn't

14:43

have a treatment for that, really, and they often

14:45

didn't discover it in time. And

14:47

she said to him, I'll be fine, I'll be fine. I'm

14:50

going in for something, but it's going to be fine, And of

14:52

course she did not emerge. She died, and that

14:54

was really devastating

14:57

for both Howard and his father. Yes,

15:00

and Howard at the time was in school in Santa

15:02

Barbara, and his uncle Rupert

15:04

Hughes, came up from Los

15:07

Angeles and broke the news to him, and

15:09

then the two of them took the train back

15:11

to Houston. But it was a devastating

15:13

blow, not just a Howard but even to

15:15

the father. After that, I think he returned

15:17

to school briefly, and

15:20

then of course he got the other

15:22

dreadful news a little over here after

15:24

that, where his father, who had appeared

15:26

to be in perfect health, very

15:29

robust kind of figure as home

15:31

in the oil fields of Texas

15:33

and Louisiana, as he was in chatting

15:37

up people in the movie community

15:39

in l A, which he spent some time in, suddenly

15:42

just keels over at his desk in Houston one

15:45

day, that of a heart attack. So

15:47

here's Howard at eighteen. Up to this time,

15:49

his evidence no particular

15:52

sign of independence or wanted

15:54

to be his own person. He's

15:57

been a very loyal son to both

15:59

the mother and the father other But then

16:01

something very dramatic happens. His relatives.

16:04

His father had a brother by name and Rupert, who

16:06

was a very famous author and

16:08

screenwriter in California,

16:11

and then his grandparents. I think by this time we're

16:13

also living in California. The assumption

16:15

was they would all oversee

16:18

the tool company, Howard's

16:21

the fortune, the basis and family fortune.

16:23

But Howard, right away, right away,

16:26

with no indication, with no

16:28

advanced warning, says I want to buy

16:30

you out. I mean, here's this eighteen year old

16:32

kid. There's evidence, no sign

16:34

of any particular independence. Who

16:37

the family is thinking, gosh, she just lost both

16:39

parents. He's eighteen years old, and he wants

16:41

to buy us out. And it, needless

16:43

to say, it created a tremendous rift in the

16:45

family. They initially resisted

16:48

this, but eventually he

16:50

was so determined and so hardheaded

16:52

and so stubborn about it, which was the

16:55

hallmark of his character throughout his life

16:57

as a boy, and

16:59

I mean as young man and then as a mature

17:01

man that he had. They eventually

17:03

said, okay, buy us out. They

17:05

were part owners somehow, or in the will

17:08

they became parted in the wild, they were part

17:10

owners. They were all in that together,

17:12

but he was the majority owner right

17:15

exactly. And he remembered something his

17:18

father had told him once which

17:20

in this case. He then starts

17:22

to use on the family. His father had had

17:24

some difficulty with one early partner,

17:26

and his father said, whatever you do,

17:28

don't ever have a partner in this world. So

17:31

Howard took this to heart with his

17:33

own family. Let's take a quick

17:35

break here, we'll be back in a moment.

17:38

His father basically told him business partners

17:40

are dangerous, you know, as sort of like his

17:42

mother told him germs or dangerous. And

17:45

so his absorption of

17:48

dangers and fears was very

17:52

total. That really caught

17:55

his attention. And I'm just

17:58

thinking of of how he was is

18:00

and these influences over the course of his life,

18:02

and his being primed for

18:05

danger signals and to do

18:07

everything you can to batten down the hatches

18:10

and avoid danger. By the way,

18:12

after your two parents die,

18:14

so you know, of course you

18:16

think the world is a pretty dangerous place.

18:19

That he would decide, you know, the

18:21

most important thing was to avoid

18:23

this danger. And I think the point you

18:25

just made as an excellent one. He did see

18:27

these various dangerous and out of this group,

18:30

I think even stronger desire

18:32

to be a loner. I mean, it came naturally to

18:34

being a loner. But basically

18:36

I think Howard felt, you can't trust anything

18:38

in this world. You can't trust the fact

18:41

your parents are going to survive a small operation

18:43

and they're otherwise healthy. Father is going to live to

18:45

be an old man. Don't even trust your

18:47

relatives, don't trust your uncle or

18:49

your grandparents, don't trust anybody.

18:52

You just have to rely on yourself in

18:54

this world. I think that's something that came

18:56

out of that, and it's sort of dovetailed

18:58

perfectly with his sense of being

19:00

kind of a loaner anyway, and in so much

19:03

of his life it wasn't a problem. But eventually,

19:06

and I'm sure we'll get to that, it was

19:08

a problem. Fascinating and

19:10

he, as you said, you know, self sufficiency

19:13

became the most important thing, the most

19:15

important thing to him, and he could financially be self

19:17

sufficient vis a vis this company, which

19:19

then allowed him to use

19:22

that money to explore and

19:24

develop and innovate other

19:26

companies, which is in the veins of his

19:28

interests, which was interesting. He

19:30

did this by at the age

19:32

of nineteen. Petitioning to become

19:35

legally emancipated was sort

19:37

of a furthering of his I'm not going to

19:39

count on anybody in this world it's

19:42

me and I have to be

19:44

the one, and he

19:46

basically starts Hughes Tool Company.

19:49

He makes that the center of things. But

19:51

then he goes on to develop these other

19:53

institutions, not surprisingly a

19:56

medical institution, given

19:59

that his parents both died of

20:01

illness and he was so afraid

20:04

of illness and germs. I think that seems

20:06

really overdetermined that you would choose to

20:08

make a medical institution. Two

20:11

things happened with the medical institution. People

20:13

are always asking him as he grew through

20:16

life, what are you going to do with your money? And that

20:18

became also a way to tell

20:20

people that's where it's going to go, and

20:22

that appeared to be something

20:25

that was a good thing to do. Howard

20:27

Is didn't need people for

20:29

much of his life, but he had this

20:32

absolutely sixth cents about

20:34

what motivated the population

20:37

and public opinion. He knew

20:39

exactly what would ring true. And

20:41

to say that you're going to leave your money to a

20:43

medical institutional, that that was

20:45

a good thing. That must mean Howard's a good

20:48

person, and that must mean he's on the

20:50

right track and he's he has bigger

20:52

issues and motivations at

20:54

him. Were there other indications besides

20:57

this that Howard cared what people thought

20:59

of him, what his public legacy would be. I'm

21:01

glad you asked that, because Howard

21:03

was obsessed by his

21:06

image, even though he himself

21:08

was very shy in many ways,

21:11

and he all throughout his life he had various

21:13

public relations people churning out certain

21:15

things about in blatant life. He didn't he didn't have to

21:17

worry about that so much because by that time the image

21:19

was built. He wanted to create the image at all times

21:21

that he was possibly the richest man in the

21:23

world or one of the richest. He wanted

21:26

to make sure the image that he was a great

21:29

corporate leader and designer

21:31

of machines and so forth. He wanted

21:34

to conquer Hollywood, which

21:36

he could do because of his money, not to make

21:38

money. Most of his movies lost money.

21:40

But he was very conscious of the image. And

21:43

when he did the premier for his famous

21:45

movie Hells Angels, which actually has

21:47

some of the most remarkable aerial

21:49

sequences for the planes of that

21:51

time, the nine twenties that you'll ever

21:53

see, I mean, they truly are amazing. I

21:56

mean, three people have died in the filming of that movie

21:59

because of these things were so dare devilished.

22:01

But anyway, you look at those and you see wow. But

22:03

what was typical Howard? When that

22:05

movie premiered, he shut down

22:08

Hollywood, searchlights, planes

22:10

flying overhead, everything in the

22:12

world focusing on that kind of thing.

22:14

So Hugh was, while shy personally,

22:17

in many ways, understood so

22:19

well what it took to catch the public's

22:21

attention, and that continued throughout life

22:23

in the other movies as well. Did he

22:25

talk to others about the importance of

22:27

perhaps surpassing his father in

22:30

success. He did not talk

22:32

about that per se, but it was a

22:34

conclusion we reached in our book that

22:36

that was one of the great driving forces

22:39

of his life. His father was a larger

22:41

than life figured to him, who had really died

22:43

before Howard himself reached his maturity.

22:47

So maybe by at that stage, Howard's

22:50

not even noticing perhaps a few flaws in his

22:52

father, if he had any. I mean, the man is

22:54

really on a pedestal at that point. He's

22:57

created this great company, he's engineered

22:59

this amazing is unfortune. It goes

23:01

west with him to Hollywood to see

23:03

his uncle, and people are dazzled

23:05

by Howard Senior and a handsome

23:07

man, very rich Man, so on and and so

23:09

forth. So I think his whole life he wanted

23:12

to do something that would equal

23:14

that, but we came to the conclusion

23:17

in his own mind he never did,

23:19

even though he himself vastly

23:22

exceeded the fame of his father in

23:25

multiple areas of interest, from aviation

23:27

to movies to other industries as

23:29

well. That is interesting because it's

23:31

not unusual, as you point out, at least

23:33

through your teens to idolize a parent

23:36

and see them as a hero. And then usually as you

23:38

move along in your teens and early twenties,

23:41

you start to devalue them, and maybe

23:43

then ultimately after your twenties

23:46

or late twenties, you start to come into a more

23:48

just a realistic view that includes

23:51

everything. But yes, left with this

23:53

purely idealized view

23:56

of a hero, it would be difficult

23:58

to, when you know what you

24:01

know about yourself, to feel that you

24:03

could measure up. But I also think another

24:05

thing comes to bear, and that is because

24:07

of the many signs and symptoms

24:10

of some form of obsessive compulsive

24:12

disorder. The flip side of that

24:14

is that Howard, there are many things about

24:17

him and his work that indicate he was extremely

24:19

perfectionistic, that he

24:22

was incredibly detailed oriented,

24:24

and that everything he did

24:26

with the development of planes, with

24:29

the movies, that he would do something over

24:31

and over and over again because it had to

24:34

be just right.

24:36

And you could say, well, you know, this is actually

24:38

a symptom of O c D, this

24:41

level of perfectionism that

24:43

actually can make people suffer

24:46

terribly in their lives because nothing

24:48

is ever exactly right. And sometimes

24:51

people with O c D of this form can't

24:53

get anything done because they have to keep redoing

24:56

things, so nothing ever gets completed,

24:58

and they're striving for it to be just

25:00

right. But in the case of Howard Hughes,

25:03

his perfectionism in many

25:05

ways was an incredible asset. Your

25:07

description a second ago is

25:09

really a one paragraph description of what

25:12

kind of drove him. It was both the source

25:16

of his triumphs and later on

25:18

it became the source of his really his own

25:20

destruction in a way. But you're absolutely right the

25:22

the O c D, the perfectionism you saw

25:24

it in particular with the airplanes and

25:27

actually in the making of the movies, and the reason

25:29

he was able to make these movies

25:31

like Hell's Angels, which cost a fortune

25:33

and never made any money was because he had

25:35

all this money and he could do things the

25:37

average producer of a movie couldn't do, who

25:40

had investors and other people to answer

25:42

to. He had no partners, He had to man to spend.

25:44

You can do whatever you want if

25:46

you own your own movie studio. There is no one to tell

25:49

you know, you can't do that. Exactly.

25:51

The one big institution he had to we owned

25:53

most of them, but not all of it turned out to be a

25:56

real problem for him, which was t w a. The

25:58

airplane. But that perfectionism

26:00

you really saw not just in health angels,

26:03

but you also saw in the making of

26:05

the airplanes. You know, he designed

26:08

and flew some very innovative

26:10

aircraft. The original ones were

26:13

a cross country Johnson and

26:15

then he had his famous around the World flight

26:17

in and prior

26:20

to that, a lot of people thought

26:22

of airplanes, it's just guys with leather caps

26:24

and they get in the cockpit and they buckety

26:27

buck across the Atlantic, and let's just an

26:30

active, great personal heroism, which

26:32

of course it was. But in his case, the round

26:34

the World flight he took with several crew

26:36

members was not only in heroic

26:39

jount but the plan they

26:41

designed and that he helped design

26:44

and perfect was an engineering

26:46

and mechanical marvel for its

26:48

time, the Lucky thirty eight. So

26:51

that was a case where the perfectionism

26:53

was extremely important. It got them out

26:55

of a couple of close calls. There

26:58

was one close call in Shoe where

27:00

they almost crashed into a mountain. But I think

27:02

if the instruments hadn't been functioning

27:05

properly, they might have been in some real trouble.

27:07

They would have been in some real trouble. But anyway, later

27:09

on in life, the perfectionism

27:12

got out of control. And there's

27:14

one it's almost a funny incident when

27:17

he was having a battle that he was aircraft company

27:19

which didn't actually make an airplanes and made

27:21

electronics. He was having all kinds of trouble

27:23

with the Pentagon because he was a defense contractor

27:26

people trying to get decisions out of it. And as

27:28

you pointed out, sometimes the c D people have

27:30

trouble making a decision because

27:32

they're afraid they're going to make the wrong decision

27:35

the way, that's that and the other thing, And pretty soon

27:37

you're just you're sitting there on this fence and it's

27:39

so what do you do when that happens? Well, in Howard's case,

27:42

it's almost comical. He's got

27:44

this huge enterprise under government

27:46

contract and generals and their force

27:48

people are breathing down his neck. So what does he

27:50

do. He orders the

27:52

study of the all the candies

27:55

that are being sold in the company's

27:57

vending machines. He was kind of

27:59

a funny health note as well, but again

28:02

it's just something where he's able to make a decision

28:04

on something that's totally unimportant

28:07

that kind of saves him from making this big

28:09

decision and diverse his attention. It's

28:11

sort of something he can focus on and move

28:13

forward and then perhaps have

28:16

the issue that was kind of crippling him,

28:18

the obsessing issue, take a back burner,

28:20

which actually might have allowed him to then make that decision,

28:22

which would be interesting because what

28:25

it would be is a personal

28:27

work around or like a self

28:30

treatment you know of sorts

28:32

and something we might incognitive

28:34

behavioral therapy use to

28:37

you know, teach a patient how to

28:39

sort of unstick themselves, you know,

28:41

at any time. So that's kind of fascinating.

28:44

He needed something like that, I'll tell you it

28:46

really did. Of course, there were not those treatments

28:48

at that time, and people didn't talk about

28:50

those things. The stigma was tremendous.

28:53

But as you point out, hues Aircraft was

28:55

really a maker of like satellites and

28:57

technology, not airplanes. But he

28:59

did have this love of aviation

29:02

and airplanes and he did, as you just

29:05

discussed, you know, build airplanes, set

29:07

world records, and he married

29:10

his interests. Which is also really interesting

29:13

that he brought aviation to

29:15

film in a way that both

29:17

improved the brand of aviation filming

29:20

himself and putting it in the films in a way

29:22

that made aviation sexier if you will,

29:25

and have the public be more interested in it and

29:27

want to fly t w A. And

29:29

at the same time he used

29:32

that to make movies that he hoped

29:34

obviously would be successful on groundbreaking

29:36

by using the appeal of

29:39

aviation absolutely and in fact

29:41

you see in the case of t Way, he

29:44

was one of those who had a hand in designing

29:46

t Wway is famous plane which anybody

29:49

young today is not aware of. But it was this absolutely

29:51

gorgeous plan called the Constellation. Even

29:54

gave it this wonderful name. It had

29:57

basically three tales, three

29:59

fins at the rear, and it became

30:02

the great luxury airliner prop

30:04

plane of its time, and he was

30:06

used it very much in his movie

30:08

business, very starlets back and

30:10

forth the movie sets and things of that

30:12

sort. And there's just unbelievable numbers

30:14

of films where some famous Hollywood actress

30:17

are standing on the gangway of a

30:19

constellation to come out, waving

30:21

to the press, waving to others, things of that sort.

30:23

So it became it was a marriage of these

30:25

two luxurious issues,

30:28

aviation and movies. That's

30:30

what was so much of Hughes's early

30:33

driving instincts. It's fascinating that while

30:35

in certain areas of his life he was obviously

30:38

terrified of taking risks, you know, when it came

30:40

to issues that is O. C. D touched

30:42

on health and and well

30:44

being and perhaps social

30:47

issues, taking risks. In terms of relationships,

30:50

as you pointed out, he really

30:52

he had two definite

30:55

but you know a couple of year

30:57

marriages. It seems that he was often

31:00

fairly certainly emotionally absent and

31:02

often physically absent from those marriages,

31:05

did not have children. Was pursued

31:07

by various starlets, but it seemed more

31:10

about superficial you look

31:12

good with me, I'm very wealthy, I

31:15

look good with you. Sorts of liaisons,

31:18

but in planes, he really took

31:20

risks and sadly ultimately

31:22

had a terrible plane crash. But

31:25

he really did take risks. That's

31:27

at the heart of a lot of his image

31:30

and why people are

31:32

in part of him. I mean, in addition, he

31:34

said a couple of ground speed records in California

31:37

with a racer he designed, one of which

31:39

christ but didn't hurt him.

31:42

Then he set two transcontinental

31:44

flights from l A to the

31:46

New York area six

31:49

and the other seven I believe, where

31:51

you set the record for flying across the country.

31:53

This is one person doing this in

31:56

a little plane that took around eight

31:58

to nine ten hours. But here's one guy

32:00

in a cockpit flying through the

32:02

night, and his compass

32:05

went out on one of the early into

32:07

the flight. And here he is flying

32:09

at night, looking down

32:11

at the lights of various cities, or

32:14

hopes of the cities. He thinks they are on

32:16

his way to Newark, New Jersey. So there's

32:18

a lot of gutsiness. You're absolutely

32:20

right. I mean, he took risks, and there was a

32:22

lot of gutsiness in what he did. That

32:26

created the image of a rich guy who wasn't

32:28

just clipping his coupons.

32:31

He's out there building airplanes. He's

32:33

investing in this new industry called movies.

32:37

He's not just sitting still. He's

32:39

advancing science, technology

32:42

or understanding of the world and

32:44

how we're going to get around that world

32:46

in airplanes, and clearly trying to demonstrate,

32:50

perhaps mostly for himself, that he

32:52

has talent and ability that

32:55

isn't just about inheriting money. Exactly

32:57

right. That's exactly right, and I think

33:00

is maybe as much as anything, what droving was

33:02

not just the interest in those areas, but I

33:04

honestly think trying to

33:06

equal his father in part. His father had

33:08

created this great fortune, and that

33:11

fortune was what made all of these other ventures

33:13

possible. I mean people used to think about

33:15

how are to use and how Richie was the whole

33:17

heart of the fortune to the

33:19

end of his days was that

33:22

company invented by his father, and that financed

33:24

everything else. And I think as a result

33:27

of this, he was always trying to show

33:29

what he himself could do. But it

33:31

wasn't just in the minds of the public of

33:33

foolhardiness. I mean he headed

33:35

to a science, aviation technology

33:38

that the idea that mankind, humankind

33:40

is moving on in advancing. It's interesting

33:43

just from a psychiatric point of view that

33:46

he increasingly as he aged,

33:48

suffered more with his O c D symptoms

33:51

and at the same time, something

33:54

that's often used by people

33:56

who suffer from anxiety, you

33:59

know, pathologic anxiety

34:01

and O c D use

34:03

a defense mechanism that's called

34:06

counterphobic behavior. So instead

34:08

of being afraid of something, you don't

34:10

contemplate it, you just jump into it

34:12

and do something extra scary, like

34:14

you know, dive off the diving board. And

34:17

you could see evidence as his O

34:20

c D worsened in some ways, you know, he

34:22

was sort of noted to increasingly like separate

34:25

his food and count his peas

34:27

and you know, sort of numerical and

34:30

like food shouldn't touch each other, and symptoms

34:32

that we know do classically happen with certain

34:34

forms of O c D that at the same time

34:37

he's taking these incredibly risky

34:39

brave you know, I had a plane crash,

34:42

but I'm going to get it back into plane and

34:44

do still do something risky a

34:46

real I think it's psychoanalytically,

34:49

you might look at this as coping

34:52

defense mechanism for his increasing

34:54

anxiety. In other ways, that's

34:57

a fascinating point, and I think he fits

35:00

that description perfectly. I mean

35:02

he had multiple plane crashes. I

35:04

mean, if somebody had one plane crash

35:06

or one nearer miss, you might and he was

35:08

afraid of all the things. You might think he would pull back,

35:10

and in fact he moves forward. In World

35:12

War two, very serious plane crash

35:15

outside of Las Vegas that killed a

35:17

couple of crew members. He

35:19

himself was hurt but survived. And

35:21

then there was the famous one after the war

35:23

ended. I should go back a little bit on this one. During

35:25

the war, he had two major contracts.

35:28

Because there was a shortage of metal

35:30

h he wanted to build one huge transport

35:33

plane out of wood that became the famous

35:35

Spruce Scoose, largest plane ever built.

35:38

Another contract was of a fighter plane.

35:40

Both of these contracts he

35:42

was unable to deliver that product

35:45

before the war ended. Not

35:47

totally his fault. I mean you could say

35:49

it was way too ambitious what he planned

35:52

to do, and this and that. But the fighter

35:54

plane, after the war was over, he

35:56

was determined to take it up and

35:58

see how it performed. And

36:00

he was actually warned at the time that perhaps

36:02

this isn't the best time to do this. You shouldn't

36:04

and there's kinds of things you should avoid there

36:07

intentionally took a risk and

36:09

the plane crashed in Beverly Hills

36:12

and almost killed it. And it's is

36:14

actually a miracle based on what happened to

36:16

his body that he actually did survive.

36:18

Nobody on the ground was killed. But that

36:20

christ was a direct result of

36:23

errors that he made in judgment that

36:26

he had been warned about. Similarly, with the

36:28

Spruce Goose, the huge flying boat,

36:31

he did fly it briefly for about

36:33

a mile in Long Beach Harbor, but

36:36

he was also warned that this thing might have come

36:38

apart in the air because it was actually

36:41

made out of wood and so forth. But absolutely

36:43

what you're saying, he took these risks.

36:45

There were some part of a piece of

36:47

his personality that said,

36:49

I need to test this, I need

36:51

to show the world this, I need to

36:54

show this to myself. We can speculate on

36:56

who was trying to show it to, but these were unnecessary

36:58

risks that he can tenually took, even

37:01

while he's worried about a little german getting in

37:03

his food. It is notable that after

37:05

the very bad crash that you mentioned, he

37:08

suffered many injuries, including head

37:10

trauma. And that's very important

37:13

because it does seem that

37:15

his symptoms of O c

37:17

D really became significantly

37:20

worse after this crash. The

37:22

pressure of the two contracts to

37:25

build those planes, which he failed

37:28

to do deliver on, along with

37:30

the crash, those things all

37:32

seemed to contribute greatly to what happened

37:34

to him after that. By in the late forties,

37:37

he's increasingly not seen

37:39

in public as much as

37:41

he once was, and then all through the fifties

37:44

the same thing as true, fewer and fewer people

37:46

seen. He's living in the Beverly Hills Hotel

37:49

in one of the bungalows. Some men who worked

37:51

for him take over the other bungalows.

37:53

When he Mary Jean Peters, they were both living

37:55

in separate bungalows at the Beverly Hills Hotel,

37:58

and in fact, one of the most amazings that tis six they

38:00

weren't married, I guess twelve years. We

38:02

computed that they actually lived together

38:04

only nine months of those twelve years.

38:07

But this process of separation

38:09

and of sealing himself off from the rest of the

38:11

world, from the world a tiny world he

38:13

should control, accelerates from

38:16

that mid nineteen on

38:18

through the rest of his life. That's a key word,

38:20

you say, their control that you know,

38:22

if you love someone, if you're married to

38:24

someone, you know and they do things in your environment

38:27

that you find difficult.

38:30

Because you have O c D, you can't entirely

38:32

control another person, so that would be

38:35

very very difficult. And head

38:37

trauma depending on where

38:39

the trauma was to the brain, but even just

38:41

generally getting such a hard hit that you have

38:44

essentially some mild form of organic brain

38:46

damage could very much accentuate psychiatric

38:49

problem that was already there. But there

38:51

was another issue too, and that is that

38:53

he had so many injuries and

38:56

needed pain medications to control

38:58

his pain, which probably isn't very well

39:00

controlled just in terms of the pain medications

39:03

that were available then, which were often short

39:05

acting and may not have controlled his

39:07

pain very well. So he may have been also struggling

39:09

with chronic pain and with

39:12

addiction that was you

39:14

know, created by physicians

39:17

who gave him the pain medications that

39:19

he needed. This is still continues to be a dilemma

39:22

for people today that you know. The thing

39:24

about opioids in general

39:26

is they can treat pain and

39:28

they often are needed. You shouldn't leave someone in

39:30

pain. But at the same time, you often

39:32

end up needing more

39:35

of the same medication to control the

39:37

same amount of pain because we developed tolerance

39:39

to those medications, and if you

39:42

try to cut back, you go through withdrawal,

39:44

and it's a very painful situation to be

39:46

in. Most people who get addicted to opioids

39:48

today do so because they

39:50

were originally given to them for a medical need,

39:52

you know, post surgery or post an injury.

39:55

But if you're Howard Hughes and you can get anything

39:57

you want, no matter

39:59

the cost and no matter the legality of

40:02

it, and you are surrounding yourself with people

40:04

who will basically not question anything

40:06

you do, even for your own good, then

40:09

unfortunately you may be left to

40:12

stuff with the consequences of severe

40:14

chronic pain and an addiction. An

40:16

addiction we know affects your judgment

40:18

tremendously, so one's ability to say,

40:21

oh, this is not looking good and you to

40:23

do something about this would really be impaired. We

40:25

have evidence said right after his death

40:27

he was found to have needles broken off in

40:29

his arms from giving himself injections.

40:32

And you can only imagine if you would tolerate

40:34

that, what kind of pain you must be in it otherwise,

40:36

absolutely right. And the drug

40:38

addiction is unfortunately

40:41

such a major part of the last chapter of his life.

40:43

And you're right because of his wealth, because

40:46

there were doctors around him who were giving

40:48

these things. His main addiction

40:50

was to coding, which is just about

40:53

the worst kind of thing to be continually

40:56

addicted to. I mean, coding's

40:59

purpose is for a short term

41:01

relief from pain, maybe

41:04

a terrible tooth extraction or some other

41:06

kind of surgery. But the

41:08

idea of using coding continually,

41:11

the side effects are horrendous from your

41:13

internal system and so forth, and

41:15

that producing other problems. So

41:18

I don't think there's any doubt about it. The drugs

41:20

accelerated that problem, and the

41:22

ways as manifested itself was really

41:25

disturbing, if you'd come back with me from it. When

41:27

we did the book, there was a lot of speculation

41:29

about how could somebody this smart, who designed

41:32

all of these things, who had these beautiful women

41:34

on his arm, How could somebody like that have long,

41:36

fair nails and behave in this

41:39

very bizarre way. So

41:41

we were actually skeptical

41:43

of a lot of the initial stories that

41:46

he was this kind of crazy and so forth. Well,

41:48

a lot of evidence began piling up that all those

41:50

stories were in fact true. And then

41:52

one day, as part of our research, we

41:55

were able to obtain something as

41:57

the most chilling document that

41:59

I have ever seen about

42:01

anybody. And

42:04

it was called the Procedures manu. And

42:06

this was a manual devised by

42:08

these handful of yes men who worked

42:11

around him, who never argue with

42:13

him about anything, about

42:15

how to do everything, how to open a can

42:17

of fruit if somebody has died in

42:20

the company, here's a four

42:23

page memo, and how to send flowers

42:26

that make sure that the bill doesn't come back

42:28

to the home office because there might be germs

42:30

on it. How to walk through the door and give

42:33

me something. Make sure you walk at an angle,

42:35

don't come straight in, like, don't breathe

42:37

on me. This thing was an inch and a half

42:40

thick, and it had

42:42

been written by the aids because

42:44

they were continually berated by him

42:47

when they had failed to do things properly

42:49

into his perfectionist view of the world.

42:51

So they wrote everything down says, well, this is how you

42:54

told us to do these things. Let's take

42:56

a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment.

42:59

I think people looked at that kind of ending

43:02

for Hughes or those last years of his life and thought,

43:05

what a you know, creepy, weird

43:08

and villainous kind of behavior.

43:11

But if people could understand that

43:14

that procedural manual that

43:16

the aids were simply writing down what they

43:18

observed he required,

43:21

and have an idea of what it would be like

43:24

to live with that manual in your

43:26

brain all the

43:28

time. That basically, you know, when

43:30

you have obsessive compulsive disorder, there

43:33

is a thought telling you

43:35

constantly you know what

43:38

needs to happen, and if it can't

43:40

happen, the unbearable

43:43

anxiety and terror you will face

43:45

until you can and in often cases

43:48

do some other behavior or correct

43:51

it in some way. That's the compulsion part,

43:53

Right, You have this thought obsession, and then you have

43:55

the compulsion which makes you feel momentarily

43:58

better. So the guy's going to walk in the or

44:00

I'm terrified he's going to contaminate

44:02

me and and and make me sick. Oh

44:04

okay, I made him walk at an angle.

44:07

I'm relieved, I'm saved. And

44:09

that relief is positive

44:12

reinforcement for the brain, which keeps

44:14

the obsession in place. It keeps

44:17

it alive, and there are more and more

44:19

and more, and so it's torture

44:21

for somebody with O C that they live

44:23

with that procedural manual in their head all

44:26

the time. So it's terribly

44:28

sad. Of course, this is a treatable illness,

44:31

a very treatable illness, and sadly,

44:33

had that been the case at that time,

44:35

and he'd been willing to do that, he might

44:37

not have suffered so much and might have been

44:40

able to participate more in the strengths

44:43

that actually conferred to him

44:45

to some degree. Also because he had O

44:47

C D perfectionism

44:50

and the innovation. What

44:52

is so sad about it is that he

44:54

would think with the less

44:57

wealthy person, a person were plugged

44:59

than to a community, a person with a

45:01

spouse, a person with some children, a

45:04

person with some other relatives, a person was

45:06

some close friends, that somebody might

45:08

have come up and said, Howard, you

45:11

kind of got a problem here, but

45:14

let's work with this. Let's see what we can do

45:16

here. We don't really have to

45:19

worry about how we opened this can of fruit. But

45:22

let's let's talk about this over here. The other But

45:24

he had been a loner his whole life, and in

45:27

his youth and in his middle manhood,

45:30

it wasn't such a big issue. He calls all

45:32

the shots. He's got so much money. Everybody says

45:34

yes, Mr Hughes, yes Howard, whatever you want,

45:36

Howard. But later in life he

45:38

needed somebody to step up and say,

45:40

okay, let's work with you on this. But

45:43

by then it was too late because he surrounded himself

45:45

with people who were just yes people. But what

45:47

we found absolutely astonishing. We

45:50

calculated that basically the last

45:52

fifteen or sixteen years of his life, he

45:55

didn't really see many people at all

45:57

other than those six or seven or eight people

46:00

who were waiting on him twenty four hours

46:02

a day. There are a couple of exceptions, but even

46:04

the guy who ran all his Las Vegas operations

46:07

in the sixties never

46:09

had a face to face meeting with it. In fact,

46:11

one of the funny things that we did the book. People always say

46:13

to so, what did you ever meet Howard Used? And I said, nobody

46:15

met Howard Used from that nine

46:18

on, because he had pulled

46:20

into this zone where he could control

46:22

everything. But the funny thing was

46:24

he wasn't controlling anything. Unfortunately,

46:26

of course, we now understand about O. C.

46:28

D. That controlling everything

46:32

is a symptom of the illness

46:34

in an attempt to manage what is

46:36

your suffering. But we also understand

46:38

that all that controlling makes the disease

46:41

worse. And it worked for him. He was still

46:43

able to, you know, help functions so highly

46:45

earlier on. But ultimately

46:48

I think you know the disease, but also

46:51

the chronic pain. I mean, some of the things

46:53

that were described that you say seemed

46:56

to be true, that growing along fingernails,

46:59

not wearing any clothing, just

47:01

draping something over your genitals

47:04

and that's all, or picking anything

47:06

up with a tissue also speak

47:08

to the possibility that his chronic pains

47:11

had developed into a syndrome Aladinia.

47:13

That when you have terrible pain, everything

47:16

can become sensitized and your ability

47:18

to tolerate any touch at

47:21

all, which is terribly sad if you're you

47:23

know, in terms of being alone already, but

47:26

any touch at all is really so

47:28

heightened that it's painful, and

47:30

trimming your fingernails or wearing

47:32

clothing can be painful for people

47:35

with Aladinia. That would explain a

47:37

lot because he spent

47:39

a lot of those last years basically

47:41

in bed, and when you're in bed. You're

47:43

not really moving around very much. You've

47:45

propped up in your hospital bid watching movie

47:48

after movie, sometimes the same

47:51

movie three times in one day. If

47:53

you're not moving, you're

47:55

not in much pain. Well, a tragic

47:57

ending for Howard Hughes In

48:00

in terms of his sufferings, certainly towards

48:02

the last part of his life, but

48:04

fascinating that the innovation

48:07

and the perfectionism and the

48:09

creativity and the risk

48:12

taking in business as well paid

48:14

off in terms of his strengths,

48:16

which had a lot to do with his mental illness as

48:18

well, but his strengths which have continued

48:21

to this day. Right we still have medical

48:23

institutions of the hues name. Is

48:25

there still technology and aviation in the Hughes

48:28

name. Huge Aircraft has been bought by

48:30

other institutions, but a lot of

48:32

that work still does go on, a lot

48:34

of the satellite work that he wasn't directly

48:36

involved in the company by that point, but he

48:38

had created an environment in

48:41

their original Huge Aircraft company that

48:43

brought some of the true best and brightest

48:45

in their fields together, and by then

48:48

he wasn't meddling the way he sometimes did

48:50

when he was younger, but he had

48:52

created that field that

48:54

brought together some astonishing companies,

48:56

so a lot of early satellites, a lot of other

48:58

things that created helicopters on

49:01

down the line, very innovative and

49:03

still part of the system out there. The Tool

49:05

company bought by other companies at

49:07

this point. But funny thing is one

49:09

of the greatest assets that he left was

49:12

he bought huge amounts of land when he

49:14

did have some money that he didn't develop. But we're

49:16

just part of his estate once once he died,

49:18

which later provided a lot of money to the folks

49:20

that didn't inherit that money. But you're

49:22

absolutely right, he did

49:25

achieve a lot. He probably could have achieved

49:27

more. The sad thing is it's really a

49:29

human failure of nobody to step

49:32

up and really help him when

49:34

he needed that help. Not that he would have necessarily

49:36

welcomed it or allowed it, but it's a

49:38

great statement about how really we

49:40

all need somebody at

49:43

some time in our life to kind of step

49:45

up and maybe even tell us something we don't want to hear.

49:47

He didn't have that, and it it paved the way

49:50

for a lot of his own destruction down

49:52

the road. And that mental illness is

49:55

not so simple that it can confer

49:58

terrible suffering and it can con for potential

50:01

strengths. And that's said that there weren't

50:03

treatments around or that he

50:05

could partake of at that time that

50:08

could have made a big difference in his life. Well,

50:12

that wraps things up for this episode. Thanks

50:14

for joining me today. If you'd like to

50:17

know more about Howard Hughes, check

50:19

out James Steele's book Howard

50:22

Hughes, His Life and Madness.

50:25

And if you'd like to know more about

50:27

the link between psychiatric illness

50:30

and genius, as you could see

50:32

was the case with Howard Hughes, you could

50:34

check out my book The Power of Different

50:37

The Link between Disorder and Genius.

50:40

And if you have a question, you can tweet

50:42

me at Doctor Gayl's Salts.

50:45

Personology is a production of I Heart

50:48

Radio. The executive producers are doctor

50:50

Gayl Salts and Tyler Klang. The

50:52

associate producer is Lowell Brulante.

50:54

For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit

50:56

the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

50:59

or wherever you get your podcasts. M