The idea of ‘raising up strong leaders’ has become a prominent part of western, Evangelical culture. Everyone gets invited to leadership training and summits, everyone is encouraged to read all the books. But the political climate of the past few years, as well as abuse allegations and scandals of prominent Christian leaders, have started to change the conversation. What is ideal leadership, and what is just idealistic? Is it possible to overemphasize the importance of one person’s sense of ‘calling?’

In this episode, Dr. Carlo Serrano returns for a conversation on healthy organizations, how leadership can be inherently traumatic, and why The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast may not be as discouraging as it seems.

Music in this episode-Smoke and Mirrors by FallsKeep On by Isaac Joel

All music licensed through Soundstripe.