0:05

Physics world. Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

0:09

podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston. In this episode, we

0:13

feature a wide ranging conversation with Paul Howe, who is the Ceo

0:18

of the Uk's national

0:21

nuclear laboratory. Paul tells Physics world's mat

0:25

about what in inspired him to follow a

0:28

career path in nuclear science and technology.

0:31

And he explains how the national

0:34

nuclear lab underpins the safe operation of nuclear facilities in

0:39

the Uk. Some of which he says are

0:43

vital in helping the Uk meet its greenhouse

0:46

gas reduction targets. So I'm delighted to be joined by Paul

0:57

Howard, whose chief executive of the Uk's national

1:00

nuclear laboratory, which says its purposes nuclear science to benefit

1:04

society. Paul's of physicist by training and a fellow

1:07

of the institute of Physics, which publishes Physics

1:09

world. Welcome to the podcast, Paul.

1:12

Thank you. Excited to be here. So we'll come on to what the N

1:16

l does, But, let's start with your background

1:19

paul because you're a physicist. How did you how did you first get into physics and,

1:22

where where did you study? Yeah. So I

1:25

I think it's getting into physics. I think it was

1:28

through the fascination of astronomy. Wanting to just understand

1:33

the universe. I I grew up living near

1:36

to George Bank Radio Telescope in C.

1:40

And, in fact, have been traveled around the world, I live close to it now actually

1:44

by pure coincidence. But always fascinated by jobs or bank by

1:48

astronomy. And, really, I think that pulled me into physics

1:52

of wanting seem to do. Physics Physics. I

1:55

thought, well, there's a topic really interesting.

1:58

An opportunity to... Yeah. So I suppose other maths and some

2:02

understanding behind the universe verse. So that was my... That my router, and I went off

2:06

to Birmingham University to do the

2:09

physics Nash course there? And then, then you graduated, where where did

2:14

you career you next after that? Graduated from that.

2:18

And, I then had a real interest,

2:22

actually, on that course, there's a lot of

2:24

nuclear energy, tool topics,

2:29

and the university at at Birmingham has quite long

2:33

history associated with nuclear energy.

2:37

So I decided to stay on, and they

2:39

do a master's course there, physics and technology

2:41

nuclear reactors. And also to look to do Phd. I've

2:44

done 3 years at at the University to do my first degree

2:48

Thought, hey, another 3 years to a Phd. I like the the thoughts of, you know,

2:52

the research environment. And,

2:55

yeah. The team there, man, at at Birmingham

2:58

were great. In that they, I had lots of links across the industry.

3:03

So I found nuclear fusion really quite fascinating thinking.

3:07

Well, that would be really good if possible to actually,

3:10

realize it. And they had links down to the join European

3:15

Tourist program down at at column. So I found myself,

3:20

wish off down there, having met, David Weaver

3:24

at Birmingham University of the time. Who then said, look, if that's what we

3:28

wanna do. We can get you down to the Join European Torres.

3:31

And that was my my first introduction to

3:34

my Phd was, full time being in in industry. I was

3:40

was 1 the first thing they did, was they sent me off to the plasma physics

3:44

summer school, that year that it was taking place in

3:47

Italy. On the shores of Late como. So I

3:50

started my Phd in first week,

3:54

in this beautifully italian for the stores of late Coma. I think

3:59

the institute of physics in the Uk, I've

4:01

got... They've got something to match, apparently,

4:04

it's owned by the institute of physics equivalent

4:07

in Italy, and this is where they hold the summer schools. So, boy we'll starting Phd

4:12

that was Yeah. Not bad. Yeah. And then you did in Phd. What what...

4:17

How... Where when did you graduate in? Where did you go after that? Yeah. So So

4:21

my phd... So that was in,

4:24

and well, the the nuclear physics associates with

4:27

Fusion. Devices, and it was actually just at the

4:30

time where they started the first Tri

4:33

experiment at jet. So 19 91

4:37

was the day that they first did that Tv cruise and everything turned the Bbc.

4:42

But Having literally the first thing that happened when I walked into the doors at Jam

4:46

coming back from Italy was, a Tv crew interviewing me about,

4:52

nuclear fusion. And I didn't know anything about. Just talked about Ba. So I just I

4:56

just said this is awesome. You know, it's gonna be fantastic.

4:59

So I don't IAAA really enjoyable time, doing

5:03

a Phd. Looking at, we built effectively a tom graph scanner to

5:08

look at the or your cross section of the of the plasma. So then,

5:13

it's really actually the first cross sectional measurements.

5:15

Of the plasma looking at the new neutron

5:18

gamma emissions that set took place. So, yeah. It's

5:22

it's really interesting that think that the phd

5:24

in that, and and fusion energy, if that's where it goes, then,

5:29

you know, that will be, standard stuff that will be done in the

5:33

in the future. So it was great to be at that, you know, leading edge of

5:37

of nuclear nuclear fusion thoroughly enjoyed that time.

5:41

And then your career today, it has been in the nuclear industry isn't in it. So,

5:44

how long have you been at the, National nuclear laboratory? Yeah. So I finished my Phd,

5:50

and sir, my external examiner actually worked at Saddle field,

5:54

and he got in touch to say, look, your

5:57

Phds is exactly in line what we are

6:00

doing up the San field in neutron and

6:02

gamma ray, diagnostic instrumentation. But for

6:06

at nuclear efficient to actually for rep processing

6:09

plants. So I worked on the pluto finishing

6:12

lines of the seller field. So a quick

6:15

transfer up to, C,

6:18

which, again, you know, fantastic part of the world really into oxford, but, you know, moving

6:22

up that was was wonderful.

6:25

And yeah, It worked on the, the Pluto

6:27

only finishing lines that,

6:31

were associated with the rep repurchase in plants

6:34

for Cell field. During that time, I had,

6:38

also had an offer to go to Japan

6:41

to do a post doc through the Wall society,

6:44

working on, plasma physics associated with semiconductor

6:49

industry. And whilst I was up in Columbia, this letter thumbs up had to say congratulations,

6:54

you have been awarded this post position. You

6:56

ask forgotten about So I explained to B nfl,

7:00

who I work for all the time to say, look, I've got an opportunity to go

7:03

to Japan and take, like a a year's

7:07

age go to Japan because Japan's is really important

7:10

terms of nuclear energy. So Said, I'll go

7:12

and study in Japan work there gets to know Japan, come back afterwards,

7:16

And, yeah know, all credit to B nfl. He

7:20

was actually a a lady who's known to the geo physics, Dame Su.

7:24

But. No was that. And, yeah, you'll know

7:26

her well. And she agreed to it. So

7:29

all credit to to sue. And

7:32

I went off to to Japan,

7:35

got married head out there with my wife, Victoria.

7:38

I said actually, whilst out. It's a great time. We worked on,

7:42

for the semiconductor industry using plasma technology

7:48

to do measurement systems using lasers to understand,

7:50

you know, the plasma interactions with making semiconductor.

7:53

So of a different air we inform me, but really fascinating. But I said to be

7:57

a Look I'm over here. Why don't I stay in Japan. And

8:01

and spend a bit more time actually really enjoy it over there. Thought a lot of

8:05

come all hassle be getting over it to

8:07

the country and work on the Japanese

8:11

nuclear energy program. For a bit, which I did. So Spent

8:14

about another 12:18 months there. Then I I

8:18

came back to the Uk worked for british

8:20

nuclear fuels. And it worked across various sites in the

8:25

in in the Uk, looking at, novel innovative technologies

8:30

and and actually, there's there's a connection continue

8:33

to plasma physics about what it could be you... And how we could use that for

8:37

purchasing nuclear fuel money and nuclear, fuel looking

8:40

at advanced reactors. And so... Yeah. That was really wonderful time.

8:43

I've got to know everything about nuclear industry.

8:46

And how,

8:50

we could look at different reactor systems in in the, 1 in the Uk

8:55

and in the world. To meet the energy

8:57

demand requirements. And I think that's when I

8:59

really got into recognizing the importance of

9:03

energy, climate change, you know, net 0,

9:08

just looking at the the the need for

9:11

an energy source line nuclear, couple 2 renewables

9:15

to address the, the challenge. So, you know,

9:18

I I felt really quite passionate about being involved in in Nuclear. So... Yeah,

9:23

It was it was a great great time to be involved in the industry. Well, so

9:28

piles of persuasion to let you your bosses take you to Japan and then stay out

9:31

there. I like it. Very good.

9:35

So then, yeah, national nuclear laboratories. I mean,

9:37

how how familiar are people? Do you often

9:40

have to explain to people with what the is. Well, you're gonna have

9:43

to on list. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. You

9:45

you do you do actually, Mass. Yeah. You

9:47

have to explain to people. The the origin

9:50

of it actually, the... It's certainly me in the Uk around

9:54

2002, the early 2 thousands.

9:59

The government set out a a really lau

10:02

strategy for 60 percent reduction C emissions, which,

10:05

you know, right right direction of travel. But

10:09

they took a view of getting that without

10:11

doing it via nuclear. And what we wanted to do was to

10:16

ensure that nuclear was appropriately recognized So we

10:19

went on quite a long journey of engaging

10:22

Mps, the house and lords,

10:25

big industry. We went around you communities

10:28

to to really, explain the benefit of nuclear. At the time,

10:35

then the government formed the nuclear new authority.

10:38

But what they also had in the Uk was

10:41

the research and technology capability. This this would like strategic,

10:48

it wasn't an organization at at the time,

10:51

but this effectively, this this grouping of this

10:53

capability in the country. The government wasn't sure

10:56

to do with it? Does it hang on to it? Does it

10:59

sell it? Does it dives it? And we

11:02

tried to make the case to government to say, look, this is strategic technically important, know

11:06

however about everything associated with nuclear,

11:09

nuclear reactors and nuclear. Power you need to hold onto to it.

11:12

And you need to keep it. It's it's a strategic capability of the country as.

11:18

And we suggested the formation of an entity

11:21

the National nuclear Laboratory. Following the Us model

11:25

that they have, you know, the big Us

11:27

national labs like Idaho, Pacific Northwest Oak ridge,

11:31

And I I work closely with

11:35

Patel in the United States. And at the

11:37

time Manchester universe to. So I c founded

11:39

the dalton and Nuclear institute with a colleague

11:42

of Manchester. We recognize recognized the importance of

11:46

the academic capability in the country, making sure

11:49

that, it was retaining and developing and growing

11:53

nuclear capability. Given there was... At the time, as I

11:57

say, bit of a phase out in nuclear, we were concerned that the country needed to

12:01

hang on to its new expertise and capability.

12:04

So we work really closely with Manchester. They

12:06

invest in a lot. We set the Institute I worked with Patel in the Us National

12:11

Labs, and we opposed to the Uk Government

12:14

to set up the entity, the National Nuclear

12:16

laboratory. So what sort of what sort of facilities

12:19

do you happen in? Because you've got you know, several thousands people. And, what what do

12:23

they do? And we're... How are they organize? Are they under 1 and Brennan? Yeah. And

12:27

so we've got a lots of really quite specialized

12:30

facilities. So if you were to rebuild tomorrow, it's about probably about 3000000000 pounds

12:36

worth of new clips facilities. That are absolutely

12:39

stated the art, you know, unique in nuclear

12:42

that enable you to handle anything that comes

12:46

out nuclear industry. So with its uranium pluto

12:48

petroleum spent fuel high active waste in active

12:52

engineering, rig, etcetera. And, basically, across everything that's

12:56

done in nuclear, what we do,

12:59

the Nfl, is to make sure that there's

13:02

a a real mechanistic

13:05

understanding of any process that happens. Because at

13:08

the end of the day, a lot of the R and D is

13:10

really to under safe operations of whatever you're

13:13

doing it in nuclear. And so you can

13:15

damage rate, you know, rightly so to the

13:17

regulator or to the general public. Look, we've

13:20

we've got an absolute bottom up mechanistic

13:23

understanding like first principles of the processes that

13:26

taking place, whatever you're doing in nuclear.

13:29

And that's what we effectively do. We sit

13:32

in between seats and between

13:35

industry. We have, you know, over

13:40

half of the work, only 6 percent of the workforce are,

13:43

like, physicists, technologists, you know, engineers,

13:47

that, and subject matter experts that really

13:51

understands under the leading edge of their field in

13:55

the mechanistic understanding of processes, but related from,

13:59

say, academic research in universities

14:03

right through to understanding what happens on plants,

14:05

whether those are reactors or rep processing plants

14:09

or fuel production, facilities.

14:11

So we can demonstrate we have absolutely understand,

14:14

you know, what's happening in these facilities, how

14:16

they can operate them And and to do

14:19

so in in a safe manner, it... They think about nuclear R and D compared to

14:22

other industries, other industries, R and D is

14:24

about, say developing, you know, new gadget or

14:28

Gizmos or widgets. What we... What we really

14:31

do is underpinning the safe, you know, operation

14:34

of anything that happens across the nuclear industry?

14:37

I mean, there's a couple of significant new nuclear build projects going on in the Uk.

14:41

I mean, what what sort of challenges do you find in terms of getting new off

14:45

the ground that there's always a hell of a lot of opposition to it. Isn't that?

14:48

I mean, what... Does that... That was frustrate straight you trying to sort of explain the

14:50

benefits? Yeah. Speak. Yeah. You you're right. It's

14:53

been a really interesting time actually to engage

14:55

with, well, politicians members of the general public lots

14:59

stakeholders outside the industry as to making the

15:02

case for nuclear, and how you go about doing

15:07

nuclear. And I've dealt with a number of energy ministers in in my time that said,

15:10

well, nobody's knocking on the door to build

15:14

nuclear is and we say, well, that's because we've gotta get this framework right to enable

15:18

them to happen. And when you look at the

15:22

the economics of building nuclear. It's really quite

15:25

different to other forms of generation. And at

15:29

the moment, save for fossil fuel. The the... It's really quite opposite. It I

15:35

I found it quite fascinating the like, the

15:37

plant build cost can be high for, say, fossil fuel plans.

15:42

But it's pretty certain because you know how to do it because you've done it lots

15:45

of times. But your fuel cost is potentially

15:48

even higher and even more uncertain. But if you're... You're you're in the same

15:52

boat as everybody else because everybody else is

15:54

exposed to that. If you're building nuclear, your

15:57

capital cost is really high, but your fuel

16:00

cost is low, but you've gotta get over

16:02

this huge hurdle of your upfront capital cost.

16:06

And if you're not building many plans, Then

16:09

it's not just the capital cost it's the

16:11

cost to capital. It's what the market. Effectively

16:13

to charges you because of the risk and

16:15

uncertainty that makes expensive. If you get going around

16:19

the circle the right way, the more you build

16:22

the more certain you are, the more certain

16:24

you are, the cheaper is to borrow money,

16:27

the cheaper is to borrow money, the lower

16:29

the overall cost. Of of Nuclear. And that's

16:32

where we need to get to. So we're just about turning point now where we need

16:36

to get to in a position. We need to get to a position where

16:39

the more you build, the more certain you

16:42

are, and that will drop the cost of

16:45

of of nuclear. So being, I really enjoyed

16:48

the the journey of engaging

16:51

stakeholders outside nuclear to explain lot this is what

16:54

we need to do and this is how we need to move forward. And I'm really

16:57

pleased the word that we did say 20

17:00

years ago, to to then get the government to recognize that

17:04

actually you need a balance mix, you need

17:07

renewables, You need nuclear, you need carbon administration,

17:10

you need energy efficiency. You need all the tools in the toolbox to address the size

17:14

of this challenge that the government has gone back to

17:17

new clear now. And not only that, but

17:20

we're looking at building large giga plants, potentially small modular reactors,

17:26

advanced modular reactors as fusion, You know, we're we're we're looking at

17:30

all of it now. So, actually, it's a really exciting time to be to being involved

17:34

in. I've been through a bit of a dip, and then out of the other side

17:38

and and now it's it's getting really interesting

17:40

in get. Is it frustrating though? Because you

17:42

talk about long and building lots of plants. But then if you're dealing with ministers and

17:46

governments that come and go and that short term cycle of politics, you

17:50

know, they're not thinking long term in 20 30 years.

17:53

All of our resilient to go a key going and you got cheap going all the

17:56

way. It's... Yeah. It's it's a lot You can probably see in the background And I'm

17:59

the manchester to city supporter. And that and

18:01

I've been emergency to city family like all my life. We've been down in the third

18:05

division, you know, with and that years ago.

18:08

But now we've all we're on a rise Again, you just gotta keep and it's weird

18:11

like that really. Believe in it, You know, and you believe

18:15

it's gonna come good. And that that's been a great thing that

18:19

it's something if you strongly believe in it. You this is the right thing to do.

18:23

You just gotta keep going it. Yeah, it's is hard. You know, you do me

18:28

say, you know, stakeholders or it could be

18:31

politicians or, you know, people who disagree disagreeing

18:33

with it. And and you you you're right

18:35

to that challenge of of engaging and explaining

18:39

and that how to how to take it forward.

18:42

Because you, you... You know, you just believe it's the right thing to do. We we

18:45

have to do this. We've gotta get into a situation where we're addressing climate change.

18:51

And as I say, whether it's nuclear or renewables, whatever it is, you need everything to

18:55

address this given the size of the channel. So I've never heard the new nuclear industry

18:59

compared to manchester the city. I'm Birmingham City fan, so I don't know how we compare

19:03

with that anyway. Got... We got new owners, so, maybe we're on the there's a comparison

19:07

there. But you you talked about the module reactors, you know, you, that that's be soft

19:12

hear them talks about us the sort of the future, and I saw last week a

19:15

a new partnership between the National Physical Laboratory Rolls Royce

19:19

on something to do. Yeah. Monitoring,

19:22

reactors? I mean, you know where do you stand on modular?

19:25

Are they... Can they really be cheaper? Can they really be,

19:28

you, if you don't have that economy of scale of the big plants,

19:31

if you have to build a multiple time, you know, is is there a future for

19:35

modular? I mean, you're gonna say, yes. Probably But it's really it's really question... It's really

19:39

interesting question actually, Matt, it comes back to,

19:41

like, the economics of nuclear. So in the

19:43

19 eighties, the economies of scale

19:46

drives you to think. Actually, if I'm gonna build a nuclear plan,

19:50

I need to put as much like nuclear in, It's possible need to make it as

19:53

big as possible. And that to get much nuclear onto 1

19:57

site in 1 facility. So, like I'm mainly

19:59

building the reactor pressure vessel 1 so mainly building

20:03

all the concrete around it around it once. So that drove that drove

20:08

the industry towards really large pants.

20:11

The the difficulty with that

20:14

is the the capital outlay for 1 single

20:17

plant gets really big. And it's difficult for any

20:22

organization to be able to outlay that and

20:25

to get over this initial hurdle of not

20:27

just the capital cost, but the cost to capital to start with. So what's happened more

20:32

recently is recognizing? Hold on? Maybe we trade off some of that

20:39

scale of economies and actually build more plants but build them

20:44

smaller, and we build more of them. So then,

20:47

as I mentioned earlier, we get going around

20:49

that circle the right way of greater confidence,

20:53

building more plants build them in a modular

20:57

at manner. And then that it is say, it might

21:01

not be quite as efficient per reactor

21:05

but you're offsetting that versus

21:08

the fact the market would say,

21:11

you... I'm confident in you building them because

21:13

you're built so many of them, the the capital cost and the cost of

21:19

capital effectively reduces. And so that drives nuclear economics. That's what

21:23

makes Nuclear economics really interesting compared to other

21:26

plans. So that's where there's a lot of

21:28

interest there's... You've probably seeing through in the Uk,

21:33

Great. British is nuclear, have done a down

21:35

selection effectively to, like 6 reactor systems

21:39

take forward that are the small modular

21:42

plans that follow that, philosophy in terms of the economics.

21:47

I mean, do you think there's gonna be much opposition from sort of local communities to

21:51

modulate react. I mean, over the advantage of the big plants that you only have them

21:54

in certain parts of the country and you've got the workforce there who obviously will be

21:58

keen to work there and they see the job opportunities? Is that is that gonna be

22:01

an issue with those small modular that they...

22:04

You can have multiple challenges with different communities

22:07

persuading them to have them built in places

22:09

that maybe have no tradition with nuclear technology

22:11

technologies. Yeah. Yeah so I think I think what will happen to start with

22:15

Mats is that we will

22:18

utilize existing nuclear license sites. And you you'd build small

22:23

modular plans like in a in a pack form. So it could be

22:29

2468 small reactors together,

22:33

as a unit as a pack with on a, on a,

22:36

an existing nuclear license site. There's enough space

22:40

on the existing sites to be able to

22:43

do that. And actually, for for us here

22:46

in the United Kingdom, some of the sites that previously have the

22:50

Mag nox reactors are actually probably more suited. The site is

22:55

smaller, the cooling water requirements are less onerous,

22:59

the grid connections or less onerous for really

23:02

big plateau. Sites like Hi Point c that

23:05

the government has selected and size well

23:07

and Will are the bid sites,

23:11

we've got smaller sites in the Uk. So

23:14

I think we we would see utilizing those

23:17

would be a good way forward it. And, of course, there are willing supportive communities that

23:21

have been used to nuclear. So we'd see

23:24

those sites used further into the future,

23:28

we might start to see advanced modular

23:32

reactors. Being constructed that, the site license

23:37

requirements maybe less onerous. So we're actually working

23:39

very closely with our colleagues in in Japan on the

23:44

high temperature gas called reactor.

23:47

So it's a system that was constructed number

23:50

of years ago in the 19 sixties. But,

23:53

effectively wasn't really taken forward, and the world

23:56

was dominated by, like, like water reactors of

23:58

pressurized water boiling water reactors. The high temperature

24:01

gas cooled reactors really interesting, Very novel types of fuel. So

24:06

the fuel is, like small pellets that, basically,

24:12

have have an have inherent safety characteristics associated

24:15

with them that they can contain vision products.

24:18

So even if Like, you you're getting in

24:21

a nuclear reactor, the key thing that you

24:23

need to avoid is a lot of coolant. And otherwise, you could get a fuel melt

24:29

and that's like I face what happened in in Fukushima. And what happens in in high

24:34

temperature gas cool reactors is even if you do a loss of coolant,

24:39

the fuel doesn't reach a critical point where

24:42

effectively it melts. So it remains intact and

24:45

stable. That that is called inherent safety. You

24:48

don't have to have lots of of active safety systems

24:51

to avoid a loss situation.

24:54

The Uk developed these reactors a number of years ago or only taken for by a

24:58

few countries and Japan was 1.

25:00

That's had an operating item to gas school

25:03

react. We are now going back to look at

25:06

those reactor systems and we've been working on

25:08

a government program. For the past,

25:11

or must be almost a decade now, red developing that fuel. So

25:17

We now are in a really interesting collaboration,

25:19

ourselves at Nfl with our colleagues at

25:23

Japan Atomic energy agency. To develop through our system, and this is

25:27

where my world seems have gone right around this circle because it was to

25:31

energy agency that I worked with when I

25:34

was over in Incompatible those years ago. So

25:37

small world have gone right around in a circle and I'm back working with the Japanese.

25:41

Again, now on a really interesting technology. 1

25:44

the advantages here, though is the temperature of

25:46

these reactors can be around say, 608 hundred 900 hundred

25:53

degrees. That unlocks industrial heat applications,

25:57

for things like hydrogen, generation,

26:01

cement, fertilizer, class manufacture,

26:04

all of these high temperature, industrial processes,

26:08

you could utilize the output from 1 of these. It's gonna be really interesting time in

26:12

Nuclear over, you know, the coming a couple

26:14

of decades as we see these reactors

26:18

demonstrated again? What about fusion where do you stand on

26:21

that? Or do you know? What, what's the

26:25

what's the prognosis? What's the prospects for, you

26:27

know, sin of working reactor that delivers electricity

26:30

to the grid within your lifetime? Is that

26:33

on the cards? Well, of course, being someone

26:35

that works with me on the on the Fusion program. I I have a I have

26:38

a soft spot for for Fusion. I think

26:40

they're making great advances And, and, actually, this week,

26:45

we've seen the Jet facility come to the

26:47

end of its, lifetime. So very sad to to see that

26:51

happy worked on the Jet Fusion program. But

26:54

so, actually, that... There's a lot of

26:57

optimism now with fusion. So

27:00

colleagues at Uk taking forward this stat reactor system. We've got

27:04

It, the international Firm Bio Reactor and a

27:07

number of startups ups actually that have prevented

27:11

fusion. And I think all of this innovation

27:14

helps as well as the large projects

27:17

they're making great progress. There are, you know,

27:20

engineering challenges, but just like we've got engineering

27:23

challenges. There's engineering challenges there to be, solved.

27:26

And it's 1 of those... If it works, and you can demonstrate it,

27:31

and you can utilize it, then it it's

27:33

got significant advantage. It really has as far as addressing, you

27:38

know, net 0 and and energy supplies. It's

27:41

worth going for, and and it's worth making

27:44

the the investment to to

27:47

overcome, you know, these engineering challenges

27:50

now for working fusion reactor. So... Yeah. I think that, I

27:55

think we'll see, I think in the latter half of this century,

27:58

then the commercial commercialization of fusion systems,

28:02

assuming that these problems can be overcome with

28:05

the demonstrators that they're talking about in the

28:07

next couple of decades. Then, yeah. I think,

28:10

yeah, I think with great opportunity. I think

28:13

then you'd probably see vision and fusion working

28:16

together, they would, you know, fulfill different aims

28:19

alongside all the other, low carbon technologies that can be needed.

28:25

And before we go final thing, you know, you know, you've obviously style out yourself as

28:29

a physics graduate if they're physics people listening

28:32

with a students now or graduates, you know, what what are the what the attractions are

28:35

working in the in the nucleus sector, you

28:37

know, I think it's fascinating answer to tell if

28:40

I start my career again, I think, given

28:43

that we are witnessing

28:45

a a, like a renaissance of you clear.

28:48

At present, and I think it's fascinating

28:51

the the opportunity to work on advanced reactors

28:54

in, advanced fuel type I think it's wonderful.

28:58

Equally, there are still a number of challenges

29:00

that require physics or legacy waste management and

29:04

cleanup. You know, the that that's fascinating work to be done, and we need to

29:08

be able to do that because that's our

29:11

license to operate. If we can't address

29:14

historic legacy issues in in nuclear and show that we can

29:19

manage nuclear in the safe manner, then we

29:21

shouldn't have a license to effectively build new

29:24

plants either that... So the challenges there. But

29:26

equally, we're working on some some fascinating areas

29:31

looking at nuclear powering proportion systems for,

29:37

future space missions, So we're working quite closely with the European

29:41

Space agency for the future power systems

29:45

for Mars colonization,

29:49

and also for moon exploration as well looking

29:52

to go to the dark side of the moon, where effectively, you haven't got solar, so

29:57

you rely on on Nuclear. So we're looking at how we can

30:02

develop the radio nuclear thermal generators

30:06

that are needed and the electricity generators,

30:09

plus also the potential for propulsion systems

30:12

as well. We're also, looking into a lot of work on nuclear

30:17

health and medicine. So where we can,

30:21

utilize alpha radio nuclei or really targeted cancer

30:26

treatment and some early work that's been undertaken

30:29

it's really promising. So rather than like chemotherapy,

30:33

which is you know, a a bit like hitting all

30:36

of the cells and you hope that you're gonna kill more of the bad cells and

30:40

the good sales, with targeted alpha for cancer treatment, you can

30:44

attach it. So it's actually right where the cancer the

30:48

cancer cells are in the body and some of the success we've seen recently

30:53

is phenomenal. So what I'm saying to to folks in in

30:57

N n nfl you know, the opportunity to

31:00

work on it could be at 0, could be clean up,

31:03

legacy waste management, space at

31:06

exploration, You nuclear health and medicine. And that's

31:08

why, you know, we have our purpose in the organization, science to benefit society.

31:12

And it's great. You know, it's all of those things that, yeah. That's gonna get you

31:16

but in the morning. So it's go work on some really interesting projects. So for Young,

31:21

yeah, physicists or physicists that starts out the

31:23

curiosity to things a wonderful opportunity.

31:26

Well, you got me sold. So that sounds great. Brilliant Paul, Lovely to talk to you, and

31:30

thanks for thanks for joining us on the podcast. No, thanks very much. I really enjoyed

31:34

it. That was Paul Howe, Ceo of the Uk's

31:45

national nuclear laboratory in conversation with physics world's.

31:50

I'm afraid that's all the time we have for this week's podcast.

31:53

Thanks to Paul and Mat for joining me

31:56

today, and a special thanks to our producer

31:59

Fred Isles. Will be back again next week. Thanks for

32:03

listening. Physics world.