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banner to go to monday.com. When

1:26

did you know that you were the person being depicted?

1:28

He says the whole thing started because he felt sorry

1:30

for you. Have you ever been to prison? What do

1:32

you feel about Richard Gans? You think he's mentally unwell.

1:35

Did you ever turn up at his house? Would you

1:37

accept that someone who did that would be very obsessive

1:39

about something? Here's the thing. I don't know the truth.

1:41

You do? I'm going to turn the barrel on that

1:44

camera. To people who still doubt you, what do

1:46

you say to them? One

1:50

of the first things that viewers of Baby

1:52

Reindeer are told by Netflix is that this

1:54

is a true story. Not

1:56

based on a true story or inspired

1:59

by real events. but a

2:01

true story. It's emphatic about that.

2:04

The show's writer, comedian Richard Gadd, even

2:06

plays the lead role himself. Many

2:08

millions of people across the world have now seen

2:11

it. It's one of the biggest Netflix shows of

2:13

the year and I've watched it all.

2:15

It's a riveting, emotionally intense drama

2:17

worthy of all the critical plaudits

2:20

it's now receiving. Viewers

2:22

are gripped by the apparently real-life struggle

2:24

of a fledgling stand-on comedian who is

2:26

mercilessly stalked by an older woman, Martha,

2:28

in a three-year-on sort of harassment. Martha

2:31

bombards him with tens of thousands

2:33

of lurid emails, leaving hundreds of

2:35

voicemails lurking outside his house, attacking

2:37

his partner, even confronting his family

2:40

and friends. Now Richard Gadd said

2:42

that he and Netflix had gone

2:44

to such great lengths to disguise

2:46

Martha's real identity that she wouldn't

2:48

even recognize herself. But that wasn't

2:50

true. Many people did

2:52

recognize her very quickly and

2:54

the more in the center of the story was outed

2:57

online within hours simply by cross-referencing

2:59

her posts on social media with those

3:01

that were used in the show. Other

3:03

details of her character bear a

3:05

striking unavoidable similarity with the real

3:07

woman now accused of being the

3:09

craved stalker Martha. The show

3:12

raises uncomfortable questions about the line

3:14

between fact and fiction, fantasy and

3:16

reality. Another innocent man in the

3:18

television industry has been falsely accused of sexual

3:20

assault based on one of the storylines of

3:23

the drama. Well Fiona Harvey

3:25

is the woman outed as the real

3:27

Martha of baby reindeer. She's chosen

3:29

to confirm her identity because she wants to

3:31

have a right of reply and

3:34

so in her first television interview she

3:36

joins me now in the

3:38

studio. Well thank you

3:40

for joining me Fiona. First of all why

3:42

have you decided to go public? The internet

3:45

sleuth tracked me down and hounded me and

3:47

gave me death threats so it wasn't really a

3:49

choice. I was forced into this situation.

3:51

What do you hope to achieve in this

3:53

interview? I came on your show because you're

3:56

a veteran broadcaster. I think you'll give me

3:58

a fair hearing and you were I was

4:00

accused of yourself not so long ago. So

4:03

that's why I've chosen this show. Have

4:05

you watched the drama? Not at all.

4:08

I've heard about the court scene, about

4:10

the jail sentences and all this sort

4:12

of stuff. You really haven't watched any of

4:14

it. I haven't watched any of it. You're not

4:16

curious to? No, I think it's sick.

4:20

It's taken over enough of my life.

4:22

I find it quite obscene. I find

4:24

it horrifying, misogynistic. Some of

4:27

the death threats have been really terrible online.

4:30

People phoning me up, it's been absolutely

4:32

horrendous. I wouldn't give credence

4:34

to something like that. And it's not

4:36

really my kind of drama. When

4:39

did you know that you were the

4:41

person being depicted in this? Five years

4:44

ago on BBC breaking news, I

4:47

saw Mr. Gart had written a play

4:49

for the Edinburgh Festival and he was

4:51

holding up placards, MP's

4:53

wife's stalker and all of

4:55

this. And he'd called it

4:57

Baby Reindeer. That's all I knew. And

5:00

I thought, well, I've only met this guy two or three

5:02

times. I don't know him. And

5:06

left it at that. I should have possibly jumped

5:08

to that stage. And when

5:10

did you know that Netflix were doing something? Two

5:12

weeks ago, I had just moved flat. So

5:15

it was two weeks ago past Saturday. And

5:17

how did you hear? I saw on

5:19

BBC breaking news that he'd sold to

5:21

Netflix and both he

5:23

and this character, Martha, this

5:25

Jessica actress, seemed to be

5:27

promoting mercilessly. Did you think

5:29

then it was you that they were depicted? I

5:33

thought it was me they were depicting five

5:36

years ago because of this MP's wife's stalker

5:38

article that had been a number done on

5:40

me by the Sunday mail 25

5:43

years ago when I was going for Donald Jers parliamentary

5:45

seats. So I knew, I

5:47

had a vague idea then, the

5:50

Daily Mail-in approached me on the Wednesday,

5:53

two weeks ago. So sort of

5:55

two weeks tomorrow, but two weeks

5:57

ago, if you see what I mean. and

6:00

told me that I was getting death

6:02

threats online, that I'd been outed as

6:05

Martha, there were TikTok videos. Were

6:07

you online at all? Because you were before,

6:09

but are you these days online? I've

6:13

come off Facebook as of yesterday.

6:16

Are you on X, what used to be Twitter? No,

6:18

I'm not. Because you had an account. Yeah, that's right.

6:21

Years and years ago, I'm scared

6:23

to Google up BBC breaking news. I'm

6:26

certainly scared to Google up the Daily

6:28

Mail. In case

6:30

I am on it in some bizarre

6:32

circus. That moment you realised

6:34

it was you, that

6:37

they were depicting from what you were

6:39

reading. The sleuths, as you say, had

6:41

found your tweets. They compared some of

6:44

the phraseology. They'd done the maths

6:46

and they worked out this was you that was

6:48

being depicted. How did that make you feel? Absolutely

6:50

horrendous. Absolutely

6:52

horrendous. I couldn't believe he'd done that.

6:55

And so long after first meeting, we were

6:57

talking 10, 12 years ago. Really

7:00

horrendous. I didn't know who to trust. I

7:02

was told by the Daily Mail, don't trust

7:04

those bleep bleeps in Scotland.

7:07

Whereas I found John doing all

7:10

of his daily records, completely wonderful

7:12

actually. He's acted with total

7:14

courtesy. I couldn't

7:16

believe this had happened. I want

7:19

to play a little clip. This is just some

7:21

of the reaction to baby reindeer from members of

7:23

the public. She ends up becoming

7:26

this. The craziest stalker I ever

7:28

seen in my life. And this is all a true

7:31

story. This is all a true story, yeah. And

7:34

they found a real woman online. So I

7:36

assume in the actual thing, they've obviously given

7:38

her a different name, a

7:40

different woman, but you know what I find? They

7:43

always managed to find a similar looking woman and the build

7:45

tends to be the same. I have a theory about this

7:47

though. I feel like he's done it on purpose because he

7:49

knew that people would find her and he wants to make

7:51

her like hell a bit. When

7:55

you hear that, what do you think? The

7:57

final guy on there, I think is correct. I think he

7:59

always wanted to. to this to come out,

8:01

to persecute someone, to take

8:04

attention away from him and this

8:06

rape allegation and I

8:08

just generally think he's got extreme psychiatric

8:10

problems. I mean there's no doubt he has

8:13

problems. I mean if you watch the, given

8:15

that he's written it about himself, if

8:18

you watch the whole thing as I did, all

8:20

five, six, seven, seven, whatever it is, he

8:23

has a lot of problems. He's quite open about that. The

8:26

question I guess which will come to

8:29

is how much of the way he

8:31

depicts you is true and your position

8:33

is that it's just not

8:35

factual. It's a work of fiction,

8:37

it's a work of hyperbole as I've always

8:40

said and there are two

8:42

true facts in that. His name is Richard

8:44

Gadd and he works as a jobbing barman

8:46

on benefits in the Holy Arms

8:49

and we met two or three times. Those are

8:51

the only things that... Well let's go

8:53

back though, let's go through some of these things. So you

8:56

first met him, I mean the show

8:58

shows you coming in to a London

9:00

pub, you've just named the pub and

9:03

he's working behind the bar Richard Gadd and he

9:05

offers you a cup of tea. Is that what

9:07

happened? No that's not correct. He didn't offer

9:09

me a cup of tea, nobody gets anything free

9:11

from the Holy Arms. I

9:14

was in for a meal with

9:16

a drink of lemonade and I was

9:18

very, very hungry. I'm diabetic so very

9:20

hungry so that's true. Did you talk to him?

9:23

He interrupted a conversation, there was another

9:25

barman there and I said, oh you're

9:28

Scottish and basically commandeer the conversation. I

9:30

was talking to somebody, it's pretty rude to

9:32

interrupt so he seemed to be obsessed with

9:34

me from that moment onward. I mean just

9:36

speaking to you, I've never met you before

9:39

but you do look and sound very

9:41

similar to the actress in

9:43

the drama. I haven't seen the

9:46

actress, we're both Scottish, we've both got dark hair.

9:49

She's considerably younger than me, I think she's about

9:51

18 years younger than me. How

9:53

old are you if you don't mind? I'm 58, I'm a year

9:55

younger than you and I think Martha, Jessica,

9:58

the actress is about 3840.

10:01

It says

10:03

in the show that you proceeded to return to

10:05

the same pub time and again but you never

10:07

paid for a drink. I

10:09

don't drink alcohol. Did

10:12

you pay for anything? Lemonade or soft drinks.

10:14

Would he give you free drinks? No, absolutely

10:16

not. This is sort of a depiction of

10:18

me as a pauper who wouldn't stand around

10:20

or stand a drink. It's nonsense. It

10:23

says that you told Richard Gad he looked like

10:26

a baby reindeer toy you once had as a

10:28

child hence the name of the show. Is that

10:30

true? I appear to have

10:32

written most of the show in

10:34

my sleep. I dressed in the...

10:38

Did you have a baby reindeer? I had a toy

10:40

reindeer and he shaved his

10:42

head. That bit is true

10:45

and there were reindeers in the shops. It was Christmas time

10:47

or something. It was a joke. So

10:49

I have inadvertently paid the name of the show. Right,

10:52

but that is true. That's true. That's

10:54

true. Whilst

10:57

bantering with you Richard Gad told you he'd

11:00

like to hang your curtains. Is that true?

11:02

This I think was a wholly armed

11:04

joke about curtains and a lot of

11:06

things showing you in. He

11:08

did say that. Yeah. Is

11:12

it true that you caught Richard Gad looking through your

11:14

window after he followed you home on that? False. False.

11:16

You never saw him at your house? I didn't see

11:18

him at my house. I think it would be impossible to look

11:20

through a window. Did anyone else ever see him

11:22

there? No. So as far

11:24

as you were concerned, he never turned up at your place?

11:28

Great. But the Netflix show has him doing

11:30

it. Yes, I believe so. I believe so.

11:32

I've been told that. But that categorically didn't

11:34

happen? That categorically didn't happen. In

11:38

the course of your relationship with Richard Gad, you send him

11:40

41,000 emails, 350 voice messages, 744 tweets, 48 Facebook

11:42

messages and 106 letters. That's

11:51

simply not true. If somebody

11:53

was sending somebody 41,000 emails or something, they'd

11:55

be doing how many are they? Lots.

11:58

They'd be obsessively confident. Yeah. Selena?

12:00

Which about you know what? I did I say.

12:02

That know that to. I don't think I sent him

12:04

anything. He. Was that amount of I know, I

12:07

say I think the may have been a couple of

12:09

emails exchanging the that the say it is still keep

12:11

answering. Emails that appealing a Netflix

12:14

has said that these details

12:16

are the real ones that

12:18

this is. This is this

12:21

exactly really into? Let's see

12:23

organizing. Anything to him. As

12:25

a may have been, a couple of emails had it

12:27

rough edges at know. Facebook. Messages

12:29

know. Did. You tweets him. And

12:32

I may have son. he is. Used to tell

12:34

us He tweeted numerous times. Know it

12:36

wasn't humid since the eighteenth. Sweet. Sales see

12:38

what a lot to some on a

12:40

smaller well known but we were all

12:42

friends you know we it was fancy

12:45

robotic system as you were controversy public.

12:48

Yes, I'm in. This is a ride somewhere

12:51

else like know, I

12:53

think when sight when I saw the rape interview starts listening

12:55

to what it says there when I when I saw that

12:57

in the guys in a separate a shame. It's not

12:59

your fault some literature one lace up when

13:01

later. He. Later said you

13:04

you would say you only sent

13:06

him a handful of emails. You.

13:08

Never texted him know. You

13:11

treated him eighteen times, You think? He

13:14

never said a facebook message. Ah,

13:17

That's a new one Letter: yeah. so

13:20

why have I got all these details

13:22

say which are supported with a net

13:24

slip through Essential no rights. so I'm

13:26

sorry who essential the stuff them Have

13:28

no idea. I think it's probably Middle

13:30

himself. A mean you could

13:32

prove i guess what easily wasn't tapes because

13:34

it'll be on your. Computer

13:36

Get browse the science. Would you

13:39

be happy for someone to look of us? Yeah. Yeah,

13:41

I mean that you know what? What?

13:43

What do you have? What down to add ons you

13:46

to read right? what's he knows his of I use

13:48

a very very old smartphones. Style because the

13:50

other one piped out for week before

13:52

Miss an asset. Because they're all sent

13:54

from an I phone. yet

13:56

so they believe it was machine i phone of

13:58

a big used meaning what's in

14:00

the phone? Meaning that someone was hiding the fact that

14:03

they were actually not

14:05

using it, they were pretending it was from an

14:07

iPhone. I don't really

14:09

understand that. Well, people can mask

14:11

where they're sending stuff from. Okay, right.

14:14

I'm not technology with kid of the year.

14:16

I wasn't doing that either. I

14:19

mean, obviously, when you make such an emphatic

14:21

denial of the central point of the story,

14:24

you're basically accusing both him but also Netflix of

14:26

lying about it. I am. And

14:29

that's pretty defamatory. It's

14:31

not defamatory if it's true. No,

14:33

no, it's defamatory that they've been

14:35

to you. I'm sorry. Yes, I misunderstood there.

14:38

Yes, exactly. Exactly. I don't see how anyone

14:40

could do 41,000 emails and all this kind

14:42

of stuff. I

14:46

don't know how much you know about technology,

14:48

but are you aware that if it was

14:50

you sending those emails, it would be very

14:52

easy for the police, for example, to work

14:54

out exactly where they come from. The IP

14:56

address would reveal that. Yes, I understand that.

14:58

And it stays on forever. But the point

15:00

is, this was years and years ago, we

15:02

were congratulating him. But it would all

15:04

still be there. Yes, yes, I understand that. And if you

15:07

sent 41,000 emails, they'll all- Because

15:09

it's just a lot of rubbish. Yeah, so that should be stored

15:11

there. Well, they'd all be there. Yeah. I mean,

15:13

he's got them. He's not got

15:15

41,000 emails. That's over

15:17

a year. Of course, a year. There's only a handful.

15:20

Yeah. I mean, how long would that take someone to

15:22

try pop? How many do you think you sent him? A

15:25

handful? Is that- What does that mean? How

15:27

many? Listen,

15:29

10. 10 emails. Not 41,000. Right.

15:32

There's a massive disparity between the two. Yeah,

15:34

I agree. I agree. I mean, if it's

15:36

not you that sent all this, then clearly,

15:39

Martha cannot be you. Yes,

15:41

Martha cannot be me because there are

15:44

a number of allegations that have been

15:46

put to me by journalists that are

15:48

simply not true. There's a whole play. It's

15:50

not just the emails. There's a sexual assault

15:52

in the canal. There's-

15:55

But if the police looked at

15:57

this, and if you sue,

15:59

for example- example, then this will go

16:01

to a court of law. And

16:03

then on discovery, people will look into

16:05

all this, the phone company

16:08

will be asked about evidence of all

16:10

the text messages, the internet providers will

16:12

provide all the backup for the emails,

16:14

Facebook will be asked about the Facebook

16:16

messages, and so on. So all

16:18

of this would come out in

16:20

a court. In disclosure. And you're prepared

16:22

to do that? Because

16:25

I didn't write in the emails. Who

16:27

do you think did? I have no idea. I think you probably made them up

16:29

in sales. I have no idea. 41,000 emails.

16:35

Yeah. I mean, would you know, would you

16:37

accept that someone who did that would be

16:39

very obsessive about someone? Yes.

16:42

I mean, that's a lot of emails. And

16:45

why why now? Why didn't he go to the

16:47

police at the time? Or this sort of

16:49

doesn't make sense. I mean, the fact that

16:51

Netflix has said this is based on reality,

16:53

this is a true story that

16:56

Martha did the real life Martha

16:58

person they based this on, who

17:00

Richard Gadd has written about is

17:02

the person that sent these. And

17:04

he has the evidence to prove it. What

17:07

you're saying is that that proves you cannot

17:09

be Martha. Yes. And I would

17:11

like to see Netflix as evidence for that, which

17:15

would come out in disclosure as well. And

17:17

you're 100% sure it's not you. Yeah,

17:19

absolutely. It goes on to

17:22

say that you heckle Richard Gadd when he was

17:24

appearing in his stand up shows. Did you ever

17:26

do that? No, never. No, you ever attended stand

17:28

up? I think I went to one is a

17:30

long, long time. And you never shouted out or anything? Why

17:32

would I do that? No, no, no. I mean, Do

17:35

you ever shout out and kill all these shows?

17:37

No, no, I don't generally go to comedy

17:39

shows. You never heckled

17:41

him? No.

17:43

Did you ever attack Richard Gadd's girlfriend because

17:45

you were jealous? No, I don't

17:47

think he had a girlfriend. I think

17:49

he's a homosexual. But no, I have

17:52

never been to his house or

17:54

attacked any girlfriend or anything like that. There

17:56

are lots of scenes where Martha is

17:58

sitting outside his house. All

18:00

day for many days Sitting

18:03

in a bus stop sitting out there

18:05

walking around and would occasionally shout at

18:07

him. Did you ever do that? No I

18:10

haven't seen the show but I I'm getting

18:12

I got yes. I got all the cool

18:14

allegations and The

18:16

trial allegations I come to

18:18

that point. Did you ever turn up at his house?

18:20

No, I don't know I don't know what he lived. No,

18:23

absolutely no. It's so whoever's doing all

18:25

this is somebody completely different This is

18:27

a fictional character hyperbole exaggeration This is

18:29

a what is based on of his

18:31

imagination. They say it's based on a

18:34

real person who's they

18:36

Netflix Netflix Oh, no, no flakes

18:38

are about as mad as Richard guards. If

18:40

they're saying that it's absolutely not correct Did

18:43

you ever contact Richard guys parents? No That

18:46

allegation was put to me by journalist. No

18:49

never happened. No There's

18:51

one key point in the drama that

18:54

Has Martha's character pleading

18:57

guilty to intimidating Richard

18:59

Gaddinkourt and sentenced to nine months

19:02

present time Let's

19:04

watch Between

19:08

the dates of the 14th of August 2015 and the 22nd of

19:11

March 2017 are you guilty or not guilty? You

19:20

were charged with a harassment

19:23

in Between

19:26

the dates of the 6th of June 2016 and the 22nd

19:28

of March 2017 Are

19:33

you guilty or not guilty? Now

19:44

again, there is obviously a resemblance between do

19:46

you think so? I

19:50

don't mean to study or not study you I just

19:52

think there is a resemblance, you know having met you

19:54

and you both speaks in

19:56

Scottish people but the fundamental

19:58

point of this is Did you

20:00

did you take part of this and

20:02

did you go to jail? Do you have a cross? No, of

20:04

course not Have you ever been to prison? No Have

20:07

you ever been charged with no way to

20:09

get no never? No nothing nothing So

20:13

that scene is completely in that completely false and

20:15

I don't think the actress sounds like me I

20:18

mean people compare me to Lorraine Kelly, but I

20:20

look nothing like Lorraine Kelly We all happen to

20:22

have dark hair and we're Scottish, you know, I

20:26

think the actresses from Glasgow I think but I'm not

20:28

sure but they and which part of Scotland do

20:30

you from? I'm from the Central Wales and Slightly

20:34

different accent. It's slightly different. I Scott

20:36

would know the difference I Scott would know

20:38

the difference the Glasgow accent is very different But that's

20:40

a fundamental point here because if they

20:42

basically have a key point in their

20:44

drama Which they say is a true

20:46

story Which involves you admitting

20:49

to intimidating Richard Gadd and getting

20:51

a nine-month prison sentence and that

20:53

is completely untrue That's completely untrue

20:56

very very defamatory to me and

20:59

Very career damaging and I wanted to

21:01

rebut that completely on this show. I'm

21:03

not a stalker. I've not been to jail I've

21:06

not got injunction since the ex this is

21:08

just complete no instance But it's I mean,

21:10

you know yourself if you're charged with a

21:12

criminal offense, it will go and fine

21:17

Bigger fine, whatever very few people go to

21:20

jail. You have a police record nowadays. Have

21:22

you ever changed your name? And

21:24

my surname was double battles.

21:27

What was it? your Harvey so

21:30

new Harvey when I When

21:33

I go and when the pants were divorced

21:35

I changed it to Harvey I just dropped

21:37

your maiden name when you were born Yeah,

21:39

that's right. Was new mirror. Yes. You're hard.

21:42

Yeah, so that's not quite unusual name Yeah,

21:44

so if you'd ever received a criminal conviction

21:46

for anything, it would be on police files

21:48

Yes, and what you're saying is you've never

21:51

been even charged with an offense Let

21:54

alone the one that they yes, I mean this

21:56

is saying nine and a half months in jail

21:59

is it's pretty serious. Did

22:01

Netflix ever contact you? No, no one's

22:03

contacted me. Never. Never. Did

22:05

Richard Gadd tell you what he was doing? No, I

22:07

had worked it out when I saw the festival,

22:09

Baby Reindeer, advert on

22:11

BBC. He had a professional with the mission of

22:13

the idea. I just happened to see that. I

22:15

was looking up the news for something else. Because that's

22:18

where he. I just happened to see that. Well,

22:20

that's where he started telling the story and that's

22:22

got, that got picked up. I was shocked. I'm

22:24

shocked. And I think Martha then

22:26

was a barstool. I seem to recall

22:28

reading that it wasn't an actress

22:30

or a person at the barstool. Let

22:33

me just show a little clip. This is from

22:35

Lorraine actually, who you just prepared yourself to. But

22:37

let's take a look at this. This is Richard

22:39

Gadd on Lorraine. I just

22:42

thought it was the right time to sort of try and

22:44

bring a nuanced conversation to something. I think the human condition

22:46

is extremely complicated. And

22:48

I felt like a lot of the

22:51

art and TV in this day and age, it

22:53

maybe simplified it too much. It's not a villain

22:55

and a vick, not storyline. I think you're left with a

22:57

lot more than that. It's kind of two lost

23:00

people. What's

23:03

your response to that? I

23:06

think they're milking it for all it's worth for

23:08

the money. She doesn't even send Scottish in that

23:10

interview. Her accent seems to be varying. Well, she's

23:12

not. She's English. She's an actress. I was

23:14

going to say she sends more lines to me. She's English.

23:17

She's an actress. She's putting on the

23:19

voice for you. They're milking it for

23:21

all they're worth. It's the right time

23:24

for to abuse someone on all over

23:27

social media and all

23:29

over, you know, basically somebody who's

23:32

not from Lovieland, not from The

23:34

Itiline, just abuse me all over

23:37

the newspapers. They're happy with themselves.

23:39

What do you feel about Richard Gadd? I

23:42

think he's psychotic. And I

23:44

think that anyone going along being in

23:47

that play and doing

23:49

this to somebody, I find

23:52

the behaviour outrageous. He

23:55

said the whole thing started because he felt sorry

23:57

for you. And that's why he befriended you. That

24:00

is that funny in the air,

24:02

the waiting room and some of

24:04

millions. Of the lots of friends and

24:06

I did, you don't have about. It

24:08

was just a wholly i'm sponsor It would

24:10

say my what are some say what you

24:13

to do with your life for you know

24:15

to be yourself you knows that of and

24:17

I thought he was a standup show. Is

24:20

possible there. Is it possible he was under

24:22

the impression that he felt sorry for you.

24:25

Know and difficult than a plasma tall. I.

24:28

Got the impression that he

24:30

was or lives and sales

24:32

once you choose and that

24:35

sort of console that far

24:37

very very next an inarticulate.

24:39

Series Sullivan self. He

24:43

never. Fun in that box. Ah. Jewish,

24:45

you never have. Yes, Absolutely

24:47

absolutely. How

24:49

long you know in full? Which suggests. To.

24:52

See month. To

24:54

see months a maximum. Heal

24:56

the work there and seven days. And

24:58

as yours go On the days he was no

25:01

I've been the bit different days adding food, Of

25:04

other people from the pub consensus nobody

25:06

contacted me know about this fall apart

25:08

from the media. The. Mainstream

25:10

media and still Chris Oh and social

25:12

media. He says Richard got into the

25:14

sea was a villain. Or the

25:16

somebody who is on world needs help. That.

25:19

While he may be some look a bit closer

25:21

to home. And. Himself as

25:23

someone who needs help. What?

25:26

You think He's mentally unwell? Yes, I think

25:28

he'll with. Was whether the with our an

25:31

alleged rape or or whether that rate

25:33

was real or and seats in his

25:35

mind I think that would make him.

25:37

More will somehow also happened users

25:39

a television. Personally don't know who

25:41

was somebody was falsely linked with

25:43

a who does that have nothing

25:45

to do with it's but he

25:47

to it's a very graphic seen

25:49

in the drama or has that

25:51

brutally raped or after lot of

25:53

drugs are taken. his

25:56

and he's ton of very he appears to

25:58

be in the drama very self-reflective

26:01

about himself. He's no angel,

26:03

he's not perfect, he's made lots of mistakes and

26:05

he didn't treat you in his

26:07

eyes as a villain like he says.

26:10

He felt that you were both slightly

26:12

lost souls. I didn't know the

26:14

rape scene within the play

26:16

until this morning. Somebody's daughter had watched

26:18

it and told me about it so

26:20

I was surprised once again, well not

26:23

surprised actually, I'm really surprised by anything

26:25

he does nowadays. He

26:27

seems to have written a couple

26:30

of other shows about this alleged

26:32

rape than this one and we've

26:35

had no apologies from Netflix or him

26:37

or nothing. I mean for someone who

26:39

says he feels sorry for me, I've

26:41

had no apology and I have

26:43

this Martha character seems to smash

26:45

up a bar, sexually assaulted

26:48

him in a canal, been to

26:50

prison, there

26:53

are a number of other allegations. None of that

26:55

is true. That's not true. He

26:57

says that people shouldn't

27:00

try to find out the identity of the real

27:02

people in the drama. Do

27:05

you give him credit for that? No, no. He

27:07

actually tweeted this. People I

27:09

love have worked with and admire including

27:11

Sean Foley who was the man wrongly

27:13

accused of being the rapist are

27:16

fairly getting caught up in speculation. Please don't speculate

27:18

on who any of the real life people could

27:20

be. That's not the point of our show, lots

27:22

of love Richard. Yes, I'm sorry, I can't

27:24

see the date of that tweet. I can't actually

27:26

see any of it. That was literally like a few

27:28

days after it was released. Right, I saw

27:30

the headline, it was all over BBC Breaking

27:33

News two weekends ago for four

27:35

days with

27:38

Martha promoting herself, the character

27:40

Martha Jessica promoting herself and

27:42

him saying don't speculate. Wow,

27:45

that's a bit rich now

27:47

isn't it? The fans

27:49

do speculate. Well, it was

27:51

almost instantaneous. You attract down

27:53

incredibly quickly. The Wednesday the Daily Mail

27:55

got in touch with me so that was all

27:58

over BBC Making News Friday, Saturday, Sunday. in

28:00

Monday. I mean the reason that internet

28:02

sleutered to find out it was you

28:04

was they found the tweets that you

28:06

sent throughout 2014. 10th of May

28:08

for example 2014. Richard Gadd did you get

28:10

my recorded delivery

28:14

letter sent to the theatre sent to arrive

28:17

bank holiday monday so you sent him a

28:19

letter then. That was that

28:21

sorry you were to hear you were right

28:23

something like that. 12th of June same year your

28:26

tweets cheer me up your timeline is good 23rd

28:29

of September my curtains need hung bad. We

28:32

were trying to encourage him because with

28:34

this first show or something like that

28:37

a long time ago. Yes on 18th

28:39

December please go and see Richard Gadd

28:41

show it's well written and neurotic. The

28:43

filmed bum shots are the best fantastic

28:45

ass. It's a joke. It

28:48

was a joke. We were trying to encourage

28:50

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returns. No,

30:30

because I didn't think he was a complete

30:32

psychopath who was going to attack me in

30:34

this way. But the show

30:36

did involve you? This

30:40

show here, not that show there. It made no

30:42

reference to you. This was a previous show. It made

30:44

no reference to you, that show. The

30:46

one you're talking about. Yes, yes, yes,

30:48

yes. So, you know, it's funny, this is coming

30:51

up now. My view is it's

30:53

all about the money. The

30:55

Martha Barthes do Edinburgh festival thing, wasn't

30:57

making any money. He'd failed as

31:00

a comedian, he'd failed as an actor and

31:02

therefore let's make some money, sell

31:04

this to Netflix. I

31:07

think anyone in their right mind, you had a group of guys

31:09

on there in their 20s, they don't

31:11

believe it. What was your

31:13

upbringing like? It's

31:18

standard Scottish, it's a saying in

31:20

standard Scottish countryside. Happy,

31:22

I mean happy. Yeah,

31:24

yeah, impoverished, but middle

31:26

class upbringing if you

31:29

like. Any siblings? I have a

31:31

sister, my mother works incredibly hard, my parents

31:33

got divorced when I was nine,

31:35

but she worked like a Trojan. Are either parents

31:37

still alive? My mother is, yeah. And how

31:39

does she feel about this? I've not talked

31:41

to her about it. I'm hoping she'll

31:43

have just seen the Scottish headlines and

31:46

that's it. She's not an internet freak

31:48

or anything like that. But she has no idea what's happened to you then?

31:51

She will know that she

31:53

was very, very angry with Laura Walker for doing

31:55

the original article when I went for Parliament.

31:57

You haven't talked to your mother, have I

31:59

not? No, and that may seem strange, but I don't

32:01

want to worry her. I'll tell her I've

32:03

been on this show when

32:06

it's here. I don't want to

32:08

worry her. Let me ask you, the

32:10

son reported an interview with Laura Ray,

32:13

who you've referenced, who accused you of inappropriate behaviour

32:16

whilst you worked with her. Now, the background to

32:18

this is that you came into contact with the

32:20

late Glasgow MP Jimmy Ray, who died aged 78

32:22

in 2013, and

32:25

his sister, wife Laura, who was 62, and

32:27

she was a former Labour Party member.

32:30

Mrs Ray said that she gave Aberdeen

32:33

University Law graduate you. You

32:35

did graduate from Aberdeen? Yes, yes. With a law degree? Wow.

32:39

A trainee role at a legal firm, MacPhail

32:41

Lawrence Partnership in 1997. Is that true? It

32:44

was called Ella Dale Lawrence. I think she forgets the

32:46

name of the round firm. It's called Ella and

32:48

Elle Lawrence. But that's all true. She gave you

32:50

a trainee job. She lured me

32:52

away from another firm. She headhunted me from

32:54

another firm because she

32:56

needed someone to do employment law, and

32:59

I'm pretty good at employment law. She said

33:01

that she had to sack you days later

33:03

because you were completely incapable of behaving yourself.

33:05

I walked. Her staff were really, really rude

33:07

to me. Most

33:10

people half the Labour Party had been up there at

33:12

one point or another and walked. She

33:15

then said that following you leaving, obviously

33:18

very quickly, that you then harassed

33:20

her. You were then

33:22

known as Fiona Muir, obviously, as you

33:25

said, Mia Harvey. Mrs

33:27

Ray said she was so frightened. She issued

33:29

a work at a firm with personal alarms.

33:32

You were then served an interim interdict

33:35

to stop you from contacting the

33:37

lawyer or her politician husband. Daily

33:40

Record afforded that. She messed up, I know,

33:42

and I still speak to David about that. The

33:45

author of that Daily Record article, she didn't.

33:47

She messed up because I went into the

33:49

court of session, the High Court in

33:51

Edinburgh to get countrywide interdict at

33:54

an injunction in Scotland and England because I

33:57

was going to move to London anyway. She

34:00

mucked up. So you went

34:02

into court to get them yourself? Yes, there

34:04

was no need against Laura Walker and Jimmy

34:06

Ray. But she said one was served on

34:09

you. Yeah, that's nonsense. An inter-immediate interview. And

34:11

again, there will be a public record of

34:13

that. Yeah, absolutely. And what? You're saying

34:15

that it was never served? What we

34:17

think, she served the initial documents.

34:20

And then she might, nope. She

34:23

served the initial documents and then there was

34:25

no hearing. She, it wasn't

34:28

ministered for a hearing. I said I

34:30

would defend. But she mucked that up

34:32

too. She didn't fill up her second

34:35

initial document. She then didn't minute for

34:37

a decree in absence. So there is

34:39

no inter-imdiction score. Why would two

34:42

people who have no contact

34:44

with each other at all,

34:46

Laura Ray and Richard

34:48

Gatt, why would they both portray you as a very

34:52

unpleasant, I

34:54

don't know why Richard Gatt has, but Laura Walker

34:56

certainly because I was going for parliamentary selection. It's

34:59

two different, you get my point, two different people.

35:01

Yeah, but Richard Gatt has Googled that.

35:03

Richard Gatt has used that. Well, that's

35:05

in the drama. And they show. Is when

35:07

they find out that you had previously harassed

35:10

this family. I haven't harassed that

35:12

family. I didn't harass that

35:14

family. And also, I worked for it in 1980, 788. The

35:18

parliamentary selection wasn't until 2000. He

35:21

Googled up the article, because

35:24

I knew he'd done that. I never went

35:26

back to the Holy Arms. He was spreading it around

35:28

Camden, but the same that I

35:31

was a stalker. So-

35:34

You've never married? No. Have

35:37

you had relationships- Boyfriends, yeah. With men?

35:40

Ooh. I mean, if you don't mind me being pure

35:42

about it. I'm heterosexual. Yeah, but how

35:44

many relationships have you had? I told the

35:46

staff that relationships were out of bounds,

35:48

a lot more than Richard Gatt has, I would

35:50

say. Well,

35:53

he had a lot. Quite a few. Right. Well,

35:55

I don't know if he had a lot. I don't know. Obviously,

35:57

now you're going- Here's my point. Now you're going

35:59

public. then the men

36:01

that you've dated over the years won't

36:04

see this. Yeah. They'll be aware of

36:06

it. They'll hear you. I don't think that if your

36:08

next question is going to be, am I stalking them?

36:10

I think the answer is going to be no. Well,

36:12

I just wonder how do you think they would view

36:15

you? I think they are

36:17

going to think what I think about Richard

36:19

Gath. He's completely off his head.

36:22

And I'm not worried about the current one because he's a lawyer

36:24

and he... You currently have a

36:26

boyfriend. Yeah. He's a lawyer. In

36:29

London? Doesn't matter where he is. I

36:33

don't want to drag him in. He thinks this is horrendous. All of my lawyer

36:35

friends do. All

36:44

of my professional friends do. Other

36:46

people do. People are being really

36:49

sympathetic. People, I don't know,

36:51

are saying things like, are you getting hounded in

36:53

the street? People are being really, really nice. I

36:55

mean, after... Anyone who doesn't know about this. Here's

36:59

the thing. I don't know the truth. You

37:01

do. And you've been

37:04

emphatic in the number of denials you're making

37:06

here. That's right. But many of those things

37:08

that I've put to you can be proven.

37:11

You're talking about emails and an email trail

37:13

thing. All of that. You're obsessed

37:16

with... Sorry, I don't mean to be horrible. I'm not

37:18

obsessed with anything. You've gone on

37:20

at length for a good 10 minutes about the

37:22

emails. Well, only because emails... Because of the last

37:24

number. Because of the last number. Well, there's a

37:26

huge number and voice messages. The

37:28

voice messages he's kept, apparently. And there is

37:30

a... He's maybe taping me in the holy

37:32

arms. I don't know if he's got any

37:34

voicemail. But if he has 350 voice

37:37

messages, then it's you. It

37:39

doesn't mean the drama is true. But

37:42

is it possible he's got 350 voicemail? I

37:44

doubt that very much. I just don't think

37:46

so. You doubt it? Yeah, I

37:48

doubt it. I mean, the less taping me... I

37:51

mean, if you've never really contacted him... He's

37:54

got 350 voice messages. But

37:56

if he's got 350 voice messages... I thought

37:58

coin signs. But if he's on his phone... matter what

38:00

whether they're on a phone, tablet, whatever they're on,

38:02

I've not quite said anything. But I'm curious, why would

38:04

there even be a possibility of him having that number

38:06

of voice messages from me? Because he's crazy what's to

38:09

make this up. I mean I've not phoned the guy.

38:11

I don't have his number. You're not sure that he hasn't got

38:13

those? I

38:15

think the only explanation for having a voice mail from

38:17

me would be taping me in

38:19

the holy arms. That's the only place. Or that

38:21

you left messages on his phone. That's

38:24

the other explanation which just didn't

38:26

happen. You can't be sure. I

38:30

can be sure because I didn't have his number. Right,

38:33

you just said you weren't sure if these were your voice messages.

38:35

Yeah, what I mean is somebody could be taping me, you know,

38:37

somebody could have taped me in the holy arms. Or

38:40

an addict to phone or something like

38:42

that. Here's my point to you, these

38:44

are easily provable things. He's

38:46

either got them or he hasn't. Yeah,

38:48

I mean we'll be asking for disclosure of

38:50

that. And the email is obviously, there'll be

38:52

an IP address. If

38:54

that leads to you. Yeah, I mean my

38:56

point is though, even if that were true,

38:59

I didn't lunge him

39:01

across the bar. I didn't essentially saw him in

39:03

a canal. I didn't go to jail. I

39:05

understand. Here's my point to you. Here's

39:07

my point to you, Fiona. And I'm not trying to catch you

39:09

out. I'm not trying to trap you. I'm

39:11

genuinely fascinated by this story. I watched the

39:13

drama. I saw them declare it at the

39:16

start as a true story. And

39:18

I've seen the interviews since with all

39:20

various people. And it's clearly

39:22

a very complex situation

39:24

this. But unless

39:27

I'm mishearing you, I think

39:29

what you're saying is there is a possibility that

39:31

you send a lot of emails. No, I didn't

39:34

say that. But it doesn't mean that you did

39:36

the more serious things. Yeah,

39:38

I am not saying at all that

39:40

I sent loads of emails. You maybe

39:43

misheard, play back the interview. What I'm

39:45

saying is a handful at most if

39:47

I did. Congratulations about the show. But

39:50

if he does have 350 voice messages and it's

39:52

your voice and everyone can now hear your voice.

39:56

Unless he was taping me in the

39:58

holy arms. or he just kept them on

40:00

his phone? I didn't phone him. You

40:05

sound unconvinced, but I don't know. Honestly, no.

40:08

So it's your point that you, are you

40:10

challenging him to reveal this evidence? No,

40:12

I just would, I would challenge him to

40:14

leave me alone. Because you're calling him a

40:16

liar and you're calling Netflix a complicit new

40:19

life. I didn't use those words. I said the

40:21

story and the play, the

40:24

Netflix show is not true. No, but

40:26

if they say that you sent 41,000 emails. Well,

40:30

they are completely wrong. Oh, 744.

40:33

They're completely wrong. So they

40:35

are lying? They are lying. Yes,

40:37

okay. Yeah, in effect, he is lying

40:39

and they are lying. And in order

40:41

for a dramatization to be true, it's

40:45

gotta be, you know, the only

40:47

defenses are very cast, I'm

40:50

feeling the truth, or the

40:54

whole drama needs to be true. They have built

40:56

it as a true story. So has he and

40:58

it's not, it's blatantly not.

41:00

Even if the email thing was true,

41:02

the rest is not so. Why would you

41:04

qualify that? Sorry, why would I

41:06

watch? Why would you suddenly qualify, even if

41:09

it's true about the emails? I'm

41:12

just playing devil's advocate here. Right,

41:14

but when you say, even if the emails were

41:16

true, I didn't say it's 41, it

41:19

doesn't mean the more serious stuff is. Let

41:23

me rephrase that. That's really what you're saying,

41:25

right? I don't wanna force

41:27

you into saying it. Yeah. That's not actually true,

41:29

but it seems to me that it may be

41:32

possible that you have communicated

41:34

all this stuff with him, but that doesn't

41:36

mean you did the more serious thing. Yeah,

41:38

that's true. It doesn't mean you attacked his

41:41

girlfriend. It doesn't mean you smashed up a

41:43

bar. It doesn't mean you did any of

41:45

those things or threatened anybody else. It just,

41:47

yes, you had a relationship with this guy

41:50

and you did contact him a lot.

41:53

I knew this guy, I didn't contact him a

41:55

lot. I've never said that in

41:57

the sense of you at all. No, no, but

41:59

interestingly. For me is an interviewer

42:02

and I'm just trying to get to the truth. You understand? No, no,

42:04

I honestly not trying to be that It's your show. Yeah

42:08

I'm just trying to get I see that he

42:10

has put his version out there and the world

42:12

is what absolutely Millions and millions

42:14

of people around the world have had Richard Gadd

42:16

version I know I'm simply saying to you that

42:18

you have a chance here Fiona, I

42:21

think and Take

42:23

this any way you want, but you have a chance here

42:26

to concede that some of these things

42:28

might be possible But

42:30

that doesn't mean the more serious

42:32

things Yeah I mean what I'm saying

42:34

is because the more serious stuff we know

42:36

is serious, right? If you were if you

42:38

were in the jail or something if you

42:40

were a violent stalker or you had a

42:42

previous Situation where you got this interim incident,

42:45

which we know was served on you. No,

42:47

it was no what sort of

42:49

interrupt there No, she has repeatedly maintained this

42:51

over 25 years I

42:53

checked with the sheriff Clark another lawyer checked

42:55

with the sheriff Clark We think

42:57

that the previous

42:59

scenario happened. She does

43:02

not have an interim interdict I

43:04

think she's quite all okay If

43:06

the sheriff got Clark can produce that and

43:09

say she didn't mock up and minute it

43:11

for d3 Why would I

43:13

not served an incident? Injunction

43:15

if Richard Gadd is watching this what's your message to

43:17

him? Leave me alone, please? Get

43:20

a life get a proper job. I

43:22

am horrified at what you've done And

43:26

you will categorically be taking legal action

43:28

absolutely against both him and Netflix You

43:31

said your boyfriend's a lawyer. So this can be

43:33

done. He's not doing it. No, I'm not doing

43:35

it Somebody else's have you instructed lawyers? We've

43:38

instructed them in part, but we want to

43:40

explore all the options out there There are

43:42

a number of number of people to sue

43:45

we can't all be in take all at once. So who

43:47

else are you planning to sue? Daily

43:50

Mail Anyone

43:52

that the same this is true and

43:55

harassing me and and that kind

43:57

of thing we have not had

43:59

time to do everything. If

44:02

the investigation, if

44:04

you sue and there's discovery and

44:07

it turns out that 41,000 emails

44:09

did come from a device belonging

44:11

to you, how would you feel about

44:13

that? I wouldn't be suing if I thought there were 41,000 emails out

44:15

there. We understand how

44:20

easy it is to find them. I

44:22

understand completely. And that if they did

44:24

exist in your category that they didn't,

44:27

it would obviously impact them. It wouldn't blow the whole

44:29

case. It wouldn't blow the case against Netflix because,

44:31

and it wouldn't blow the case against him. No,

44:34

no, you might well have. Making out it's a

44:36

true story. No, no, no, no. You see

44:38

what I mean. I'm buying from my original position.

44:40

I understand. And I understand that it's obviously put

44:42

your life into a very difficult position. It's

44:44

very hard. And their central claim that

44:47

they made all this effort not to lead

44:49

to you being identified, I don't think stands

44:51

water. I don't think it stands water. To

44:53

me, it's pretty, I could have listened. I've been

44:55

a journalist 40 years. I could have discovered it

44:57

was you in about 10 minutes.

44:59

Yeah. One side of what? Yes, I agree. I

45:02

discovered it with me when I saw

45:04

the BBC breaking news, baby

45:07

reindeer show at the Edinburgh festival, when I

45:09

was Googling up just the news that day,

45:11

or the weather or something. And this came

45:13

up and it was he was holding up

45:15

a placard or a newspaper article and piecewise

45:17

talker. All you need to do is Google

45:19

that. Then I saw the name of the

45:21

show and I thought, bloody hell, let's see

45:23

up to. And

45:26

I tried to get a friend to go

45:28

see the show because she was based in

45:30

Edinburgh. She was in holiday. Nobody I

45:33

know had seen that show either. So

45:36

I was really shocked. I was very upset

45:38

for two, three days. And then the general

45:40

plan of action among

45:43

my close friends was just, you know,

45:45

let him get on with things. He's

45:47

not going to be that damaging. You

45:49

don't really know him. This will go

45:51

away. Famous last words. Years

45:56

ago. Do you remember what? No.

45:58

And I left the whole. the Holy

46:00

Arms, think about it, and he was calling

46:02

me a stalker and things. There were various

46:04

things happening in the Holy Arms, you

46:06

know, other women were warning me about

46:09

them and everything. About him? About

46:11

him and others with bad conduct. In

46:17

relation to the 106 letters that he

46:19

and Netflix say you sent, well, here's

46:22

my point. You've admitted

46:24

sending him one and

46:26

that presumably was a handwritten letter. Are

46:30

you thinking I was making a mistake then

46:32

that I maybe did not before? No, no,

46:34

no, I'm just saying if we accept that the one

46:36

that you admit to sending is in

46:39

your own handwriting, he has another 105 letters

46:41

in your handwriting. Are

46:46

you prepared for him to show that one

46:48

and the others? He's maybe forged things, I mean

46:50

people forge a lot of things nowadays.

46:53

You think he could successfully write 105 letters

46:55

to himself? Well, I certainly didn't. No,

46:58

but you admit to sending one. My point is if

47:00

it turns out the other 105 are exactly the

47:03

same handwriting, wouldn't that point? Yeah,

47:05

I mean we do obviously bring in handwriting, but I didn't

47:07

do it. You only ever

47:09

sent one letter. Yeah, I'm sorry. I haven't

47:12

sent that guy 106 letters. Do

47:14

you still email people? What

47:17

do you mean? Do you send emails? Yeah,

47:19

yeah. Do you have the same email address you've always

47:22

had? I had six at one point. Why?

47:25

Because I like to keep people on different phones and

47:28

different emails. Six different emails? Maybe four.

47:30

I think it's four to six, yeah. Was it four

47:32

or six? It's easier, so you have some

47:35

for your utilities, some for close friends, whatever,

47:37

yeah. The six is a lot. Is

47:39

it? I don't know anybody with

47:42

six email addresses. You don't know many

47:44

people then. I know people with four or six emails

47:46

address. Was it four or six? I

47:49

can't remember. Probably six. How

47:51

many do you use today? I have four phones. I've

47:54

got one today, but I only

47:56

email select friends. And you have

47:58

four phones? Yeah, two broke.

48:00

They were very very old. One was

48:03

brand new and broke and it's still

48:05

a bit of turn to the shop. I

48:07

like keeping people on separate phones as well.

48:10

I mean, I think it's a maniac or

48:12

a stalker or something. But if you've got

48:14

somebody on about your electricity bill or somebody

48:16

on about some work or something, it's nice

48:18

to keep it separate. So

48:21

I think that in Scotland you didn't have to,

48:23

but the volume of course. Do

48:26

you think if somebody did send someone 41,000

48:28

emails, obviously,

48:34

would that mean someone's stalking someone?

48:38

Well, yes and no. I mean, it could be your

48:40

wife. It could be you maybe sending emails every day

48:42

about the kids or something like that. I don't know.

48:44

41,000 is a lot. It's that how

48:48

many a day my maths

48:50

isn't working this time of night. It's a lot.

48:53

Yeah. That doesn't necessarily mean they're

48:55

stalking somebody. They could be great friends. You know,

48:57

they could have been friends for 50 years or

48:59

something. Was he ever your friend, Richard Gag? No.

49:02

No. Stop asking me that as well.

49:04

No, I don't think so. You had a lot of banter with him.

49:07

Yeah, but banter's one thing. Scottish banter

49:09

down here is quite kind

49:11

of welcome. You know, it's not really fun

49:14

city, is it? It's not jokey city. Were

49:16

you ever in love with him? Yes.

49:19

Is that to his question? Yeah. No. No.

49:24

It's not a question of by

49:26

his own admission. He

49:28

has said that he bled you on

49:30

at times and he clearly was.

49:32

I gave him the brush off. He asked me to sleep with

49:34

him with a big green spot in his face one day.

49:36

I said, no, I'm sorry. I'm not interested. He

49:39

asked you to do what? He asked me to sleep with him. He

49:42

said, would I like my curtains fixed? And

49:44

I laughed. And he said, that's a

49:46

euphemism. Do you want me to come home with

49:48

you? And I said, I've got a boyfriend. I

49:51

gave him the brush off big. Well, big

49:54

time, I think, you know, subtly, subtly so, but

49:56

the bottom line is I think there's behind him.

49:58

No, I didn't fancy him. I

50:00

don't fancy little boys without jobs.

50:05

That sounds awful. That sounds really, really

50:07

callous, but, you know. People

50:11

will watch this. You've watched the

50:13

Netflix series. And like me, they

50:15

will be trying to work

50:17

out where the truth lies.

50:19

It seems to me that either you're innocent

50:24

in the way that you've came to be and

50:27

you've been horribly defamed

50:30

here. I think at the very least, the

50:33

Netflix duty of care and Richard Gare's

50:35

duty of care has been a spectacular

50:37

failure. I agree. Regardless of

50:39

anything else, regardless of your culpability

50:41

of anything, the duty

50:44

of care has failed because people identified you

50:46

incredibly quickly. So they've made this,

50:48

what they say is a true story and

50:51

everyone's worked out as you. And

50:54

the picture they paint is of a completely

50:57

crazed stalker ruining

50:59

a man's life, albeit

51:01

he accepts that some of his

51:04

behaviour may have led the person

51:06

on. Ask the question, do you happen

51:08

to know how much he's made out of this Netflix

51:10

thing? I would imagine several

51:13

million pounds. Yes, I would say three

51:15

to four million. A lawyer I know well

51:17

thought he was a wee nobody and he

51:19

suggested 750 to 100 thousand. I

51:22

said, no, I think you're looking more about

51:24

three or four million. And I think the

51:26

more he publicizes, it goes up, according

51:30

to how much it streams. I don't

51:33

know. I don't know what the contract they signed.

51:35

I think he's done bloody well out of defaming.

51:37

Do you resent that? I

51:39

don't resent any score getting on. This

51:42

is not what this is about. But he's

51:44

effectively making money out of what he says. He's making money

51:46

out of what he says. What he says is you stalking

51:48

him. Yeah, he's making money

51:50

out of unshoetheics. He's

51:53

been the ultimate misogynist. The

51:56

actress was also not appealing for calm.

51:58

He was appealing for calm. I

52:00

think he did that to sort of start things

52:02

up more. And I think they knew exactly

52:04

what they were doing. And I think your staff

52:06

were talking about Martha, the sequel

52:09

or something like this. It's

52:12

completely crazy. It's completely

52:14

crazy. Well, your staff put that to me

52:16

and to me, should I write a book

52:18

about this? Well, I've got other things to

52:20

do, but same as a possibility. You've

52:23

got a law degree. Yeah. So you're

52:25

obviously very bright. How

52:27

did you do at school? I've got a photographic memory.

52:29

I was top of the school apart from

52:31

the science. Which school

52:33

was that? Boughran High. I went to the

52:35

science person,

52:38

got the most marks because you get 99 percent. How

52:40

many O and A levels did you end up with? I

52:42

got six hires, two

52:45

XSYS. They were all sort

52:47

of most were A band ones, which was when when

52:49

the A band one was top of the thing. And

52:51

with your law degree, what grade did you get? Not

52:54

bad. I mean, oh, all right. What

52:56

was it? I just

52:58

did an ordinary degree and then diploma in legal

53:00

practice. What grades did you get? And

53:03

all right grades. All right grades.

53:05

But what were they? Parting.

53:07

I didn't do an honest degree. So,

53:10

you know, just both standards. Great.

53:12

What degree did you do the law degree? I

53:15

did a law degree with 13 subjects, 13 law subjects. So

53:18

it wasn't the CPE or anything, which

53:20

I also have from down here. But it was 13 law

53:23

subjects. This is from Aberdeen

53:25

University. So what degree did you

53:27

end up with? A law degree. And then I did

53:29

a politics degree after that. And what grade

53:31

did you get? Women's Studies. I

53:34

did substantially better than that because I did more

53:36

work. You know, I think in our day when

53:38

you went to university, there's a reason you think

53:40

of the photographic memory. But what grades did you

53:43

get? All

53:45

right grades. I mean, not top of the year or

53:47

anything. No, no. When you do a

53:49

degree, you get a you're asking me what

53:51

marks I got for 13 subjects. I

53:54

can't remember. Well, you know, you end up with it. Did

53:56

you get a first class degree? Oh, no. Well, I said I

53:58

didn't do an honest degree. I wanted to go out. practice

54:00

so it was an ordinary degree I did. Right but

54:03

you can't remember how you did? I did

54:05

alright. I didn't do top of the year. But the

54:10

other graduates at the same time they don't remember you? Some

54:13

of them remember me, one of them did

54:15

incredibly well, he's a high court judge, some

54:18

people didn't do well. I think

54:20

the general idea in the 80s

54:22

was we didn't really do much

54:24

work, that sounds absolutely awful but

54:26

you know that was kind of the 80s. If

54:29

you came to it, would you take a lie

54:31

detector test? Yeah, possibly yeah,

54:35

we'd need to consult other lawyers about that.

54:37

If we set one up you would do it. A

54:39

lie detector test for what? You know, I might just

54:41

go through more. As you know the police use them,

54:43

they're just an indication for you. They use them for

54:45

mass murder and things like that. One of

54:48

them actually they use them in many cases just to determine what

54:51

they think someone said was true. They don't use them that

54:53

much. I know you've done the programmes of

54:55

women behind bars and things, I

54:57

confess I think I've just seen one but

54:59

it's not used that much. I can't have

55:01

a thing. Since you mentioned it, I've

55:03

done a lot of crime interviews with

55:06

people who've committed way worse

55:08

offences than what you've been accused of. Yeah,

55:10

way more, mass

55:13

murderers, serial killers and so on. And you

55:15

know, they're all,

55:18

I've got to say, almost all of them

55:20

are very good liars. Could

55:22

it be, people will be asking this, watching you

55:25

thinking either she's genuinely

55:28

innocent here or she's

55:30

a terrible liar who is capable

55:32

of all of these things. I don't lie and

55:37

I tell white lies if I absolutely

55:39

have to like when my 94 year

55:41

old ex-neighbob's dying. We all knew

55:43

she was dying and I phoned

55:45

her in the hospital the night before and I

55:48

lied and said, you know, have a good sleep,

55:50

everything's going to be fine and that. You know,

55:53

I tell a white lie like that when

55:56

somebody clearly needed some rest. How many times did

55:58

you have a good sleep? you meet Richard

56:00

Gere? What would

56:03

you guess? Five six, maybe five

56:05

six times. That's it? Yeah.

56:07

In your life? Yeah.

56:11

How do you think it's come to this? If that's

56:13

all true? I think he wanted to make

56:15

money. I think he picked on something.

56:17

There's a backstory there with that stalker

56:20

article out there, right? So stockings in

56:22

Vogue, going to prisons in Vogue, in

56:24

Vogue. What would

56:27

a writer say or English lecturers or

56:29

something write about what you know? And

56:33

to people who were watching, look down the barrel of that camera.

56:36

To people who are watching this and

56:39

who still doubt you, what do you say to them?

56:43

I think you should watch this. I think

56:45

you should look at the number of articles

56:47

that Richard Gare and Jessica the actress have

56:49

done and how Netflix and he have promoted

56:51

this. And I

56:54

think you should look at

56:56

him saying I am some sort of mental case

56:59

and judge for yourselves because I can't

57:01

change your mind on this. I

57:04

can just rebut what has been said. You

57:06

need to make up your own mind, but

57:09

my mind is made up. He's a liar.

57:11

And my friends say likewise. Fiona

57:15

Harvey, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thanks for

57:17

having me. Thanks

57:22

for your time. Thank you.

57:27

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