0:01

i fear that listeners must

0:03

be hiring of us, whining

0:05

about the overtime threshold but given

0:08

that it is the single most important

0:10

intervention in economic

0:12

policy we are not going to let it go

0:14

we've called the overtime threshold

0:17

the minimum wage for the middle class half

0:19

of american workers work more than forty hours

0:22

a week, 20% were more than 50

0:24

hours a week all these workers are missing out on

0:26

time and a half

0:32

home on the flip adventures

0:34

and downtown seattle pitchfork

0:36

economics whitney can our the

0:39

best place to get the truth about who gets what

0:41

and why

0:48

i'm nick can our founder of civic

0:51

dentures i'm david goldstein

0:53

senior fellow at civic

0:55

then

1:00

one of the things you and i have in common

1:02

neck is that when we get our teeth

1:04

into a subject we don't like the

1:06

let go of it do we know we do not know

1:08

i do not and i fear that our listeners

1:12

hiring , us whining

1:14

about the overtime threshold but

1:16

given that it is probably the single

1:18

most important single most

1:21

important intervention in economic

1:23

policy that materially

1:25

impact middle class people we

1:27

are not going to let it go until

1:29

the by administration does the right thing

1:32

n n a lot of people might be might

1:34

be surprised by that

1:37

assertion of yours or think that your it's

1:39

a little hyperbolic the south it it's one of

1:41

the single most important policies ah

1:44

but you know as we've talked

1:46

about before and will talk

1:48

about again on this episode so we've

1:51

we've called this the overtime threshold

1:53

the minimum wage for the middle class to

1:55

live with it is a core part

1:58

of american labor policy the

2:00

and has been since the nineteen thirties

2:02

and the arose in of

2:04

overtime not just as actual threshold

2:07

the salary level below which

2:10

you qualify for time and a half

2:12

pay that a hundred and fifty

2:14

percent of your regular pay for

2:16

every hour you work over forty hours

2:18

a week lot of people might not be

2:21

even be aware that the say

2:24

we should be getting this the erosion

2:26

of that the erosion of the knowledge

2:28

of that has played a huge

2:31

part in rising inequality

2:34

i in the united states

2:36

over the past forty years and

2:38

in the arose of

2:40

the middle class just the fact that

2:42

people aren't aware of it yeah absolutely

2:45

and you know the thing is thing is

2:47

that it used to be such a central norm

2:50

in the culture of work in the country

2:53

ah the you know it's supported

2:55

not just more income for

2:58

ordinary americans who used to rely

3:00

on overtime in many cases for

3:03

extra things but it

3:05

also had a huge

3:07

role in protecting the lifestyles

3:10

of families because it

3:13

meant that you just had a lot more

3:15

time i mean the difference between

3:17

working forty hours a week routinely

3:20

or working sixty hours

3:22

a week routinely for the same pay

3:25

you the difference between a good

3:27

life in a shitty one i mean it really

3:29

is and the

3:31

regular a again you know as i've emphasized

3:34

before if you're a highly paid executive

3:36

for of you know of bond

3:38

trader on wall street making millions a

3:40

year you know screw you

3:43

you don't deserve overtime and don't need

3:45

it and and if and if you chose

3:47

choose to work seventy hours a week

3:49

for all that extra money out interpreter

3:51

and you sacrifice having a close relationship

3:54

with your children because they never see

3:56

you well that's your choice

3:58

to make yeah i don't know that that's

4:00

the right choice but that's your choice to make

4:03

absolutely elaborate that up

4:05

your front from being a retail worker whose

4:07

miss classified as a manager and

4:10

is working sixty seventy hours a week

4:12

just to get by and never

4:14

sees their children that's right in

4:16

a you know i think i think you

4:19

know a lot of work maybe

4:22

evolving towards that

4:24

that the kind it be no shit where

4:26

where people city paid overtime

4:29

even even so called white collar work

4:32

it just is the case and i

4:34

think that

4:35

reestablishing this norms so

4:37

so important

4:38

though to secure

4:41

the lives of

4:43

middle class families but also

4:46

you know as whoop as we've said many times it's

4:48

such a big job creator if you prevent

4:50

people from turning three forty hour week jobs

4:53

into to sixty or recharge boy

4:55

you can create a lot of jobs in an economy

4:58

of , size but you know our

5:00

podcast listeners you've heard nick and i talk

5:02

about this subject for a long time you

5:05

don't have to take our word for it

5:07

it we're talking with or marcus

5:10

forum he's us journalists who

5:12

wrote a four part series

5:14

or in capital in maine on the overtime

5:17

rules ah and he talked to a lot

5:19

of the people who are impacted by

5:22

the erosion of the stand young

5:24

the let's talk to marcus

5:31

marcus durham a long time editor

5:33

and journalist and reporter and writer

5:36

and , did a series of stories

5:38

about the overtime wage rule for

5:40

capital in maine to the news non

5:42

profit based in california so

5:44

why as as you just mentioned

5:47

you do they are a four part

5:49

series about overtime

5:51

for capital and main lot

5:53

of people aren't even familiar with

5:55

the overtime or what

5:57

led you to pursue this subject

5:59

yeah and good question army basically

6:02

i've been focusing on income inequality

6:05

for capital main so we're

6:07

going back to probably string

6:09

of twenty twenty one or the publisher

6:12

capital man who i'd call publishing

6:14

stories with for many years brought

6:16

me in because he wanted the launch

6:19

the series of stories that were just

6:21

focused on income inequality out of his

6:23

very broad category so he wanted

6:26

to look at the can the sources

6:28

of income inequality and some analysis

6:30

of it i was responsible

6:33

and as some solutions to

6:35

reduce the massive any income

6:38

inequality we add inequality this country

6:40

and so during that during was assigned stories

6:42

of all kinds of subjects from the racial

6:45

wealth gap to our rural

6:47

income inequality to income inequality

6:49

and certain sectors the economy

6:52

like odyssey teaching

6:53

and the manufacturing sector

6:56

and , the way i started looking

6:58

the overtime pay and

7:01

came across the statistic that was

7:03

stunning to me on and eighty seventy five

7:06

would is sixty percent salaried workers

7:08

qualified for overtime

7:10

which is you know brace for a standard time and

7:12

a half for all kind of familiar with the concept and

7:15

, it's plummeted to about fifteen

7:18

percent and and actually and twenty sixteen

7:20

it it it was his lower seven percent

7:23

so and gone from sixty to

7:25

sixty three percent of salaried

7:27

full time workers to at

7:30

one point less than seven percent and

7:32

that's and stunning so all these millions

7:35

and millions of workers tens of millions on our coworkers

7:37

who are working harder than ever if you with a surveys

7:40

rise up and like haskell of america workers

7:42

work more than forty hours than week suddenly

7:45

twenty percent worth more than fifty hours than week

7:47

all these workers are missing out on

7:49

time and a half this kind of standard

7:51

that were used to and i had no

7:53

idea about that like consider myself pretty savvy

7:56

about i economic issues

7:59

in friend the but that right away

8:01

had stood out to me is something that deserve

8:03

down like a bigger analysis more indepth

8:06

our research right and

8:08

be clear they're not as missing out on time

8:10

and a half the both of these people

8:12

are missing out on

8:14

let me pay it off for those x or hours

8:16

yeah no it's true and in and your that sense

8:19

that basically your hourly pay goes down

8:21

be working fifty hours a week it is you the mouse

8:24

you and your hourly pay goes down you

8:26

know what is that dad twenty percent

8:28

twenty five percent when he didn't know yeah

8:30

didn't so you're missing out on a lot of

8:32

income there was really unfair and a

8:34

very fun and on away

8:37

yeah absolutely i'm

8:39

is so i just have to ask you a mean you know

8:41

i had the i had the overtime revelation

8:43

in two thousand and fourteen

8:47

it you know as an employer i

8:49

had to come to grips with the fact that

8:51

i had been unconsciously

8:54

playing this game for most of my career it

8:56

basically persuading people

8:59

and working sixty hours

9:01

for forty hours worth of pay and

9:04

you know when you sorta added connie

9:06

me wide the scale

9:10

this scam is breathtaking

9:13

don't get me wrong you know i like if

9:15

you're a super highly paid executive

9:17

the price of that is

9:19

to work your ass off and if that means seventy

9:22

hours a week that me and seventy hours a week right

9:24

or the our ninety hours a bigger whatever it

9:26

is sprayed on saxon they were jail

9:28

or associates and up to the office and

9:31

you're like yeah okay is ergonomic million

9:33

so you know it's a yeah i

9:35

understand that but if you make forty

9:37

thousand dollars a year as an assistant manager

9:39

at a retail store or something like

9:41

that right it is totally

9:44

absurd and i guess i'm asking

9:46

you mean it is a did you have this similar

9:48

revelation were years like holy shit

9:51

a thick skin i know i mean i

9:53

mean it the more you dig into with

9:55

them more like outraged to yet in moria

9:57

earning it is because i mean one thing is

9:59

looking at that the salary

10:02

threshold which is basically anybody who makes

10:04

more than that

10:05

doesn't qualify at or overtime

10:08

except for like very narrow are exceptions

10:10

but in general so basically that

10:12

was eight thousand dollars and eighty

10:15

seventy five ruff a thousand

10:17

dollars which you the time was a little more

10:19

of an average salary for many

10:22

workers sure you are working class and lower

10:24

middle class workers boy that

10:26

stage frozen until

10:28

no two thousand four there

10:31

are to unbelievable that be or two thousand

10:33

somebody making ten thousand dollars a year

10:35

which is a pretty shitty cel could

10:37

knock was i've robertson the net

10:39

is crazy it i and then it is emitted

10:42

twenty three thousand until

10:44

two thousand and nineteen but again

10:46

i whose name but he making twenty four

10:49

thousand like the woman a profile my

10:51

for story in in our two

10:53

thousand and fourteen or fifteen

10:55

she's making twenty four thousand raising

10:57

a kid as a single mom and she can't

10:59

qualify for overtime is is working to fleece

11:01

of the of hours a week that's just insane yeah

11:04

so newton i came as topic

11:06

through through the policy wank angle

11:09

our first introduction to it was simply

11:11

ah this is something that

11:14

the white house can do without congress that

11:16

it can be done through rulemaking and

11:18

we started looking at it and then we realized

11:20

what a big issue of was ah

11:23

our initial interest or simply with something

11:25

that the president could could do

11:28

what , didn't do and you

11:30

know we researched it we know all the numbers

11:32

we can see how big a problem this is what

11:35

we didn't do well thank thankfully i'm no longer

11:37

a journalist so i didn't actually have to

11:39

go out and interview people so

11:42

we don't have that one on one experience

11:45

with ah the people that this

11:47

is impacting you

11:49

do when you talk to these people

11:52

they know how much they were being cheated

11:55

the know that missed part of a problem with at

11:57

it i talk about him when the stories is that

11:59

is so eliminate a former situations

12:01

which is ray com and i think the with income

12:03

inequality in general is that

12:05

the new reality is

12:08

so different from the all reality that

12:10

people it's like the fraud boiling in the pot

12:12

the can i use to this new miserable

12:14

situation yeah so they they have no expectations

12:17

of anything better that a most people

12:19

were com like ah yeah i'm in they had heard

12:21

the idea they can undo big really about overtime

12:23

but they're like yeah i'll get that

12:26

like i've never gotten that i've never been told

12:28

that i might qualify so was not

12:30

even a consideration the network like

12:32

out a particular the rainbow yeah whatever yeah

12:35

it's not my be dated a reality which

12:37

is really really upsetting because

12:40

it has that insidious effective

12:42

like making people not you

12:44

don't expected you don't demand it

12:47

so you have people who are just like a whatever

12:49

i work sixty hours a kind of suck last week

12:51

but you know

12:52

how it is so everybody does right

12:54

in so nobody's in over a few people

12:56

are complaining yeah except for everyone

12:59

else in every other developed country

13:01

a , yeah i an athlete ah

13:04

i mean it's very common the mean i mean that

13:06

and also i think of

13:08

our time is interesting because it is something you do

13:11

get across wage sectors i

13:13

am do i'm doing some reporting on

13:15

wage theft right now for propublica

13:17

and there's and little bit different because like you are eyes

13:20

we got no incentive to thousand

13:22

dollars every two weeks who got one thousand

13:24

nine hundred eighty five we'd be

13:26

in there with hr been like what's going on here local

13:28

my check your and instead

13:31

a lot of low wage workers especially undocumented

13:33

workers don't do that because they're vulnerable you

13:35

like it with overtime even that

13:37

is like everyone blinds lot of work

13:40

you know sixty hours a week for some

13:42

jobs and the never never in father

13:44

we just like i discover it is more

13:46

can i do

13:47

though i'm what did you learn

13:50

when you talk to people who had been taken

13:52

advantage of this policy

13:54

failure what would surprise

13:56

you in your discussions

13:58

with them

13:59

you know i guess it was a little surprising

14:02

me going back to that previous point about how people

14:04

does weren't like that

14:06

said about it like it was a certain cynicism

14:08

that said in you know ah

14:11

especially having among low wage workers who

14:13

were just how a year or really yeah

14:15

okay like then when pigs fly like

14:17

you know that's not really something i haven't thought

14:19

about is not going to happen so

14:23

there's a kind of world weariness which is sad

14:26

as so i got on is rather than people in the streets

14:28

marching yeah state paper dislike

14:31

and i need this job i don't

14:33

wanna have you know upset my boss

14:36

and that's another language comes through

14:38

which the know against northern union busting

14:40

to was that people are just there are afraid of creating

14:43

there's dress like anything to give your boss

14:46

a reason to say i you know what your attitude your

14:48

be your pain in the ass ah and

14:50

that sort of a new economy to that's where people

14:52

are very vulnerable nobody has the confidence to complain

14:55

so as a certain like yet cynicism

14:58

among the people wanting some i think we're really educated

15:00

and you're like wow they are kind of amazed

15:03

to hear that they actually do qualify where

15:05

they may qualify and some cases

15:08

and that you know that was inspiring

15:10

that adding a lot of workers just didn't expect

15:13

or they would qualify as they

15:15

hadn't been miss classified of

15:17

have nothing since the number you

15:19

had in one of your pieces

15:22

were in california they looked at in

15:24

ninety three percent of employers

15:27

had miss classified employees in the previous

15:30

year it's kind of amazing

15:32

employees

15:40

at all times and the so-called manager,

15:42

you know, basically you sweep

15:45

the floors you stock the shelves, he

15:47

does like everything except

15:50

in very little management but he's

15:52

considered a he has an exemption

15:54

from overtime you though he's doing everything

15:57

in the store, which, again, i think it

15:59

was a the will keep more of there

16:01

was some white guy a hearing

16:04

in california the state senate that discussed

16:06

this and some are , aggressive

16:09

like i figured out that official government official

16:11

was questioning some lawyer for in the streets

16:14

and it was just like it was big it was almost

16:16

like surreal the arguments back and forth to

16:18

the guy was like well even though is not really

16:20

actively managing it he's

16:22

thinking management like he's he's

16:25

planning management and government i was

16:27

like really are you a says that area within it

16:29

might it was like so like

16:31

amazon an existential level level

16:34

he the manager because he is thinking

16:36

about his management responsibilities

16:38

with for fast who is about best restaurant

16:40

best you know pointing

16:42

to a two thousand and nineteen gallup poll fifty

16:45

two percent in a full time workers were

16:47

working more than forty hours a week thirty nine

16:49

percent work at least fifty hours a week and eighteen

16:51

percent work at least sixty two

16:54

this is like a it's a big it's

16:56

problem it would

16:58

be fun actually goal

17:01

lead to put a little poll up in the show notes

17:03

in and show our listeners

17:06

and proportion of them with

17:08

full time jobs work more than forty hours

17:10

a week and the i think that

17:12

you know where the conversation

17:15

around this usually goes this

17:17

obviously income i think

17:19

it you know a bigger issue maybe

17:23

just time

17:25

right i mean the difference between working forty

17:27

hours a week and sixty hours a week

17:30

the yearly

17:31

really is the difference between leading

17:33

a good life and kind of one that

17:35

is besieged particularly

17:37

if you're not making a million bucks a year it's one thing

17:39

you know like if you make in a shit ton of money work and sixty

17:41

hours a week is no problem because of course you

17:44

have the resources to pay

17:46

people to do all the stuff you don't

17:48

do in that extra twenty hours a week

17:51

at you know whether it's childcare or

17:53

gardening or you

17:55

know whatever it is you know you can

17:58

use money to make the

18:00

up the difference but for most people

18:02

you know certainly somebody making fifty thousand

18:04

dollars year sixty thousand dollars here who

18:06

works sixty hours a week not forty

18:09

aren't that's not enough money to pay

18:11

to get done the stuff life

18:14

requires much less enjoy yourself

18:16

or help your kids with homework president

18:19

body lice issue i wonder

18:21

if the pandemic hasn't

18:24

to a certain extent reminded people

18:27

the how awesome it is a

18:30

little bit of time back

18:32

now i wonder if

18:34

that will play into

18:36

how people feel about this issue right

18:38

now yeah and

18:41

in there was a big issue of it with lot of have talked

18:43

about than during the pandemic how nice it

18:45

was to be at home or not to be commuting

18:48

and to have an extra time and it definitely

18:50

you saw like more worker

18:54

the workers demanding more

18:56

from their employers you know there is more

18:58

demand for higher wages

19:01

that more time off better

19:03

on treatments that treatments policies in

19:05

adeptly picked up to some company

19:07

that raise the wages so it remains to

19:09

be seen i think whether the last in

19:12

or shows like already wages of pentagon

19:14

back down or of the wage growth

19:16

as i was pretty dramatic for

19:19

about a year and a half is kind of slowed i

19:21

wonder whether it people can start

19:23

feeling vulnerable nos care you know not

19:26

have the the the power

19:29

to to demand more that's part of

19:31

the issue was worker power that like

19:34

even if you don't have a union i used to be a little

19:36

more sense of like you have a stake in

19:39

the air discussion you can demand more

19:41

demand that's has disappeared so workers

19:43

have workers her so vulnerable even if you're

19:46

going accountant or would be a white collar worker

19:48

allotted this is we

19:51

we allowed the overtime threshold

19:53

to a road to that many fewer people

19:56

qualifies we allowed

19:58

regulation to a road the dead

20:00

right and we basically accepted all

20:02

of this job miss classification

20:05

because let's be clear even if you are a

20:07

you are over the overtime threshold if you're

20:09

not a manager don't get

20:11

overtime if , not actually

20:14

and management yeah it's in there are

20:16

job areas that don't job

20:18

classifications the don't get overtime overtime

20:21

the more pernicious thing to me is that erosion

20:23

of norms and expectations that

20:26

if you go back and you watch

20:28

t v of the nineteen seventies

20:30

tv and movies there was this trope

20:33

this expectations people

20:35

look sometimes counted on

20:37

overtime they knew you know

20:39

in the busy season they were going to

20:41

get overtime and they relied

20:44

on that time and a half pay they

20:46

looked some people look forward to it

20:48

because that's what they would use the pay

20:50

for the family vacation works to

20:53

are buying gifts said

20:55

christmas it was part

20:57

of the culture that time and culture that

21:00

was a thing user a time

21:02

and a half and we have written this and

21:04

when we've written about this week

21:06

had to write it

21:07

in multiple ways if i

21:09

right time and a half that

21:11

doesn't click in the mind

21:14

of a twenty something or third on something

21:16

they have no idea what you're saying realize

21:18

you're wearing like what does that sometime it's time travel

21:21

things another that flourished

21:23

time and time and for you know i'm

21:25

i'm fifty nine time and a half

21:28

for somebody who grew up in the seventies

21:30

you know what time and a half men him

21:32

and you got time and a half pay you didn't have

21:34

to say time and a half backs of i say time

21:36

and a half pay that's still might

21:38

not clicking a lot of people's heads what i'm

21:40

talking about that's true

21:42

no definitely definitely people gotten

21:45

kind of used to like to this is how it is

21:47

and then they are working longer hours yeah

21:50

and i was sort of a standard it

21:52

like i said before it's have an insidious effect

21:54

or it's just a com ithaca

21:56

new normal

21:57

new normally he worked more a

21:59

expect more and you

22:02

know you are kind of a thing whim

22:04

of whatever your employer wants of your boss

22:06

wants genetic part of that is tied into like

22:08

the worker and like a big

22:10

economy a beyond that even just

22:13

that idea of not having

22:16

that kind of relationship with your with

22:18

your employer we're there for a long time

22:20

and he can depend on you like where we

22:22

did a story a while ago about how

22:25

you know the whole idea of stakeholder capitalism

22:27

and has become sort of a new mantra an

22:30

intern since at since at prime primacy

22:32

which i was he was you know dominant for decades

22:35

and you look back at some of the statements

22:37

from like the heads of us steel or

22:39

gm and nineteen thirties and

22:41

they talk with are basically saying

22:43

they call recapitalise

22:44

talk about how this important to recognize

22:47

this you know their stakeholders are

22:49

their employers their customers

22:52

people in the community where they're headquartered

22:54

like the shareholders it is one piece

22:56

of

22:57

and all that shifted

22:58

and the seventies and eighties or fake largely

23:01

due to like ronald reagan era policies

23:03

yeah so markets what should

23:05

we do like weird

23:07

highly engaged the

23:09

civic eventually am is highly engaged and

23:12

driving policy if

23:15

it was up to you what would you that

23:17

would you suggest the department

23:19

of labor do

23:20

the is follow the example of

23:22

i mean like i mentioned last through the are some states

23:25

that do have higher threshold

23:27

and were more they've expanded over time protections

23:29

including california oregon

23:32

washington near washington has a pretty

23:34

impressive model was sexy worked on very

23:36

carefully when the i made a meeting in

23:38

full detail but they really had

23:40

a very democratic process where they had tons

23:43

of like sessions around the state

23:45

because washington is very very from seattle to

23:47

like the on easter farm wages and

23:49

they have these discussions with stakeholders within four

23:52

years with union people with farm workers

23:54

and they came up with this very high threshold

23:56

i think it's kind of hit eighty five

23:59

thousand

24:00

the i'm years but they're phasing it it

24:02

that is true of all the sudden you made it eighty

24:04

five thousand and nationally all these companies were beach

24:07

in are running the mag any party

24:09

firing people and in

24:11

are doing all kinds of tricks to did around the

24:13

overtime rules skill you have participated

24:17

yes and the and they didn't nothing and will in washington

24:19

effacing in over like six or seven or eight

24:21

years for very long season

24:23

but it's very robust yeah and it's

24:25

it's it's just you know that we architected

24:27

that probably not the as a good as

24:30

us another i ,

24:32

remember that actually yes i'm guys are g does

24:34

family did that of that reside

24:37

in right and we tied into the minimum wage

24:39

rates right which is also smart the

24:41

other kids which is historically

24:44

you know the two of them came in together with minimum

24:46

wage and maximum hours because if you don't

24:48

have maximum hours the minimum wage is meaningless

24:52

right right in hell does pay you the minimum

24:54

and i'm working more hours yeah

24:56

so yes no yes and and

24:58

there were these historic ratios

25:01

the find you know yes

25:04

they were somewhat pulled out

25:06

of thin air at the time in the nineteen

25:08

thirties of the minimum wage was half the median

25:10

and the overtime threshold

25:12

or three times the minimal but those

25:15

were standards that we're

25:17

maintain for thirty forty

25:19

years before both the minimum wage

25:21

and the overtime threshold were allowed to erode

25:24

right and as we've learned in washington

25:26

state it turns out when you raise

25:29

standards not only is it not

25:31

a job killer the happened

25:33

it turns out to be good

25:35

for employment we end up having a very robust

25:38

economy the very robust job

25:40

market there you personally

25:43

did did you stick out some ground and where you think

25:45

the federal government should go we

25:47

have a very strong view just wondering if yeah

25:49

i mean i ever have like

25:52

of the script in our as at that

25:54

specific policy prescription but

25:56

i'm agency think the washing states when is

25:58

a good model the i'm and it can do

26:00

it more difficult than a federal level the

26:02

get that high a threshold but

26:05

i know that in on right now the by

26:08

the ministration and like working on this

26:10

revamp what comes out in october or

26:13

of overtime and that might involve

26:16

the they're taking a to the obama

26:19

level which was forty three thousand

26:21

which is still kind of low to you

26:23

know to beyond that time we should be do

26:25

a reading most people pushing for something in the fifties

26:27

and it's i think some of also prefer that to

26:30

align with the california ah

26:32

rules which are a little more

26:34

you know not quite as generous as the washington

26:36

state ones and and have a lot of protections

26:39

including ones for farm workers who

26:41

are always historically excluded from other time

26:43

soon we're we're pushing them to go to eighty

26:46

five well yeah which

26:48

is the washington the would that's the washington

26:50

state stand yeah right basically

26:53

and at that level the

26:55

threshold would be

26:58

effectively where it was at

27:00

the former high watermark the same

27:03

but i aim to send it's yeah i'm actually

27:05

a little lower by parker close to the same

27:07

percentage of from the

27:09

enough about sixty percent of salaried

27:12

workers would write all a fight for overtime

27:14

in in our discussions with

27:16

the form of labor and with the a

27:19

senior administration officials but

27:22

one of our core arguments is

27:24

the if you don't raise the threshold

27:27

to include most people

27:30

you can't reestablish the norm

27:32

right right like your has to be

27:34

a social the economic

27:37

expectation

27:38

again

27:39

the you you're

27:42

doing what other people tell you to do

27:45

which is most people then

27:47

they should pay yeah the war the extra

27:49

hours the they require

27:52

that that workload requires hi

27:54

and they don't want to do that that they should hire more workers

27:57

are a good because you know i think that

27:59

the other sort of dirty secret of overtime

28:02

is that it the a high standard

28:05

is probably the biggest

28:07

job creator the policy

28:10

it is available in the country

28:12

because if you require

28:15

this is is to pay people time and ass

28:17

their best alternative

28:19

if they actually have the work to do

28:22

is to hire new workers

28:24

to take the pressure off the old workers

28:26

and

28:27

you know if you've got thirty million

28:29

forty million people working sixty hours

28:32

or forty year hours a pay and

28:34

right all of a sudden can't

28:36

do that anymore you've effectively

28:38

created ten million new jobs it

28:41

i was originally sent to be i read

28:44

the original expression in

28:46

a with a with a few of a percent of that mr

28:48

kind of create overtime was meant to

28:50

spur jon cruddas that's right that's

28:53

right a m is interesting because of

28:55

their labor people who isn't a little bit have

28:57

, habit that they've changed over

28:59

the years that remember this unquote splicing

29:02

or gompers for like nineteen ten or something

29:04

where he was weary of orbiter because

29:06

he thought it'll become a new norm

29:08

the animals for a job creation

29:10

and the people will be just used to working

29:13

that extra level of work which

29:16

is kind of what happens and most them didn't

29:18

warfare forward laps forward even me it

29:20

was even worse than his like worst nightmare

29:22

but nightmare but is a key thing you're

29:24

right to gonna bring it back that it's

29:26

been so slow

29:29

so it , eroded

29:32

that it's gonna take some major change even

29:34

get back someone close

29:36

to the pace that it was at before or were

29:38

in recovery i was there was there before

29:41

so die unfortunately all these little

29:43

changes barely make a difference

29:45

the obamas change would ya made much

29:47

of a difference a military military

29:50

a you know odyssey trump's be i was

29:52

even worse that's right or op is

29:54

that the biden administration will do better

29:57

on so one final question why

29:59

you do this work

30:01

one hundred years works or good question

30:04

i think in part

30:06

of it actually is a i do have

30:09

these are issues i care about as they can be

30:11

number one the is i feel like a

30:13

lot of

30:14

the waited our issues the

30:16

worker safety and health issues especially among

30:18

you , the to working class and lower

30:21

middle class the people who make up to do the

30:23

job that pub you get on the country

30:25

run are ignored by

30:27

the media and he barely city coverage

30:29

of it even like researching his overtime thing

30:31

you barely see any stories about there

30:34

was a few stories and when obama in

30:36

our bet is our proposal

30:38

and then there's nothing this is people

30:40

made us don't get it just like to work probably worse

30:43

in the digital era where avoid with for clicks

30:45

or so even any kind of substantive

30:47

born out of your story ask

30:49

the be driven by some big controversy

30:51

in the news cycle americans only be a problem

30:54

and then i think for me was also kind of personal the

30:56

income inequality because as i

30:59

was always amazed at how when i start off

31:01

and journalism of the daily news and like

31:03

that late nineties i was

31:05

making forty thousand a year i

31:07

was sort of like i was the cub reporter

31:10

just starting out this is what she makes and

31:12

then almost like seventeen

31:14

years later then when twenty twelve

31:16

twenty thirteen i was like paying people

31:18

i was a managing editor of is an online

31:21

news publication i was paying

31:23

people are starting salaries reporters was

31:25

thirty thousand so salaries

31:28

dropped twenty five percent over almost

31:30

twenty years now and what

31:32

other

31:33

you know and i'm that's not accounting for

31:35

inflation that's not even accounting for inflation

31:38

edwards that invested twenty percent drop

31:40

in like

31:43

yeah

31:44

the any and if i be our they are what are their

31:46

profession does that the it's it's

31:48

it's insane it was like so just sat

31:51

on my reporters were like doubling up

31:53

and like apartments were allowed to selective

31:56

a ramp and for then do the job

31:59

so it it is a broader home

32:01

and then java seem to know seeing

32:03

people lose their jobs and people

32:05

you know who are accountants all to settle working in

32:07

a subway it's ,

32:10

it's pretty obvious and to

32:12

seem like something a nice to be revealed

32:15

them and report it as you know

32:17

i suspect marcus their part

32:19

of the reason why does something get attention

32:21

or didn't get attention is that ah

32:24

journalists and progressive

32:26

think tank workers they

32:29

all workers long hours

32:31

for low pay and no overtime

32:34

and so just never occurs in law everybody

32:36

does this was what are these people complaining

32:38

on what i'm work and like brighter the

32:40

idea of the norm this is this is what

32:42

it what you do to get ahead in america we're

32:45

, through ah that isn't

32:47

that bad as that at ethic sensibility

32:49

among journalists and sensibility also journalists mean

32:51

does shine you know more of a harsh light

32:54

on the media light think the reporters have

32:56

kind of lost touch kind many ways with like

32:58

the working class or

33:00

you don't see stories about that are kind of relegated

33:02

to like oddball with the publication

33:04

of the small situations or

33:07

in a little quirky web sites and

33:10

the main publications don't cover these

33:12

issues could they're caught up in other

33:14

big story like the business section is full of

33:16

like sexy stories about sex and

33:19

, about in i'll be like little number

33:21

labor reports will run like laid

33:23

off father's labour reporters the every paper

33:25

you said the labour reporter is highly more

33:27

as to and none

33:30

another all yeah another all

33:32

and lots of business reporters very few

33:34

labour reporters to we only get down side

33:36

of the story and decided to sure you hear

33:38

his own know with we can

33:40

afford the if you pass this rooney

33:43

raise the overtime threshold we're

33:45

gonna have to lay people off right

33:48

there was definitely

33:50

happen

33:51

the earlier alright

33:53

will listen thank you so much

33:55

for doing the work and being with us on the podcast

33:58

really can't either you thank you for having

33:59

the nutrition

34:05

i think make you know we've covered this this

34:07

topic before i think it's interesting of

34:10

marcus talking to workers are impacted

34:12

how few of them actually new

34:15

yes this has been fed yeah

34:17

i'd say that this was

34:19

their rights not only to get that

34:21

time and time and which i as

34:23

we mentioned the lot of people don't know what time in

34:25

the and a half means anymore yeah

34:27

ah but that they should eat get paid at

34:29

all because you know in america you work hard to

34:31

get ahead that's just what's expected of you

34:34

and if you don't put in that extra work

34:36

well you know the you

34:38

know i guess you're just not dedicated

34:40

to your job you're not you're not meant

34:42

for success yup my

34:45

big take away and and this is something we

34:47

we've learned over the years as

34:50

we said we originally approached this from

34:52

a policy perspective is ah

34:54

how much the erosion of the policies

34:57

have a road id norms and

34:59

expectations that that used

35:01

to be in america that word free time

35:04

when you had free time free time with

35:06

something that that you had to

35:08

spend with your your family with your

35:10

kids and with your friends or

35:13

to go on vacation to pursue hobbies

35:15

to do things that interested you

35:18

outside of the workplace that's what free

35:20

time was that's what it meant and

35:22

now free time is something

35:24

that your employer expect from

35:26

you they want your time for free

35:29

a and we just shrug our shoulders

35:31

and say oh i i guess that's just the

35:33

way it is yeah and

35:35

again i mean that that's so much

35:37

a part of why we hope

35:39

, the by administration will raise the threshold

35:42

above you know toward sixty percent

35:44

because if you can reestablish norm you can

35:46

change the culture and right

35:48

i think that would be good for everybody again

35:50

you know like i just went to underscore

35:53

the you know this issue goes deeper

35:56

the just

35:58

crying to increase the

36:01

wages for middle class

36:04

people for me you

36:06

know our country as we said many

36:08

times before his lining

36:11

apart and it is flying apart

36:13

because the

36:16

objective fact that

36:18

for most people the bonnet

36:20

certainly the bottom ninety percent of earners

36:23

things have gotten harder and seedier

36:25

every year since the seventies

36:28

has shredded the reciprocity

36:30

norms that make social

36:32

cohesion and democracy possible

36:36

and when i think about these policies

36:38

like the overtime threshold we're

36:41

trying to go beyond

36:44

the economic inconvenience

36:46

of getting screwed by your employer

36:49

were trying to rebuild the society

36:51

and culture

36:53

by proving to people

36:55

that the government

36:57

they elected is moderately

37:01

on their side the democracy

37:03

that they participate in is worth

37:06

defending and supporting

37:08

there's no way to get them to do

37:10

that if every year there

37:12

lived experience is no

37:14

i just got screwed again and

37:17

and so you know that's why this is so

37:19

important is that the only way

37:22

the country will be better is if people feel

37:24

better and the only way they're going to feel better as

37:26

if they do better and the only way people

37:29

actually do better is if they're fucking paid

37:31

more at the right but also

37:33

not not overworked mean let's do

37:35

earlier know lot of people would make the

37:37

choice know a lot of some people

37:39

would choose to work the extra hour and get

37:41

their time and rice and some people

37:43

would choose not to work the extra

37:45

hour your own spend time with their children and

37:48

that's and that's awesome and the thing is

37:50

is that is it would you know we're sort

37:52

of in the country at this point in sort of in

37:55

an existential fight over

37:57

the future and the best

37:59

the way to secure the future it

38:02

to make sure that most people feel like

38:04

things are going well and

38:06

here's an opportunity to do that and

38:09

we should take it just

38:11

to remind listeners the biden illustration

38:13

through the department of labor is in

38:16

the process of updating the

38:18

overtime threshold ah we've

38:20

been involved in lots of meetings

38:23

i've personally met with you

38:26

know since see your folks in the administration

38:28

over it's we've lobbied

38:30

senators and

38:33

folks , congress to be pushed

38:36

and eight with they are indeed going to

38:38

do something the question is how far

38:40

will they go and but

38:42

are you know i think that listeners can expect

38:44

in the next month or two to hear

38:47

something about overtime and

38:49

hopefully we'll be celebrating

38:51

not crying gray and at and and

38:53

and and be clear why why this is important

38:56

that this is something the president can actually

38:58

do this is something of the department of labor

39:01

ah is legally authorized

39:03

to do through the rulemaking process

39:05

it's very different than the minimum

39:07

wage president biden can talk about

39:09

how he supports a fifteen dollar minimum wage

39:12

ah but if the democrats don't have

39:14

the vote in congress if mansion

39:17

and cinema won't vote to

39:19

or override the filibuster to

39:21

that we can get this through the senate

39:24

then it can't be done the president can't

39:26

do anything about it because we don't have

39:28

enough votes in the senate to do it we

39:30

have enough in the house at the moment not

39:32

enough in the senate but the overtime rule

39:35

that can be done without congress and and

39:38

that's why we're counting on the

39:40

by the administration to go bolt down

39:42

this one and and lead

39:45

through action not just through works through

39:48

the and on the next episode of pitchforks

39:50

economics we will be covering the

39:52

lingering effects that long

39:54

covered has had on the economy

39:57

and the labor market

40:00

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40:03

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40:05

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40:07

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40:12

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40:20

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40:23

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