0:00

Jamie: Pixel Therapy is a member of the But Why Tho Podcast

0:02

Network Spencer: Go to butwhythopodcast.com for an

0:05

inclusive geek community offering pop culture news

0:08

reviews and podcasts. Devon: When we look back on our lives and think about the things

0:15

that matter to us, sometimes achievements will figure in

0:18

there. But a lot of times it'll be like, Oh, this play that I

0:22

worked on with friends that nobody came to and didn't sell

0:25

any tickets like, Oh, this d&d game where we came up with these

0:28

hilarious jokes. And you know what? We didn't record it. It

0:31

wasn't a podcast. It wasn't, It wasn't something for anybody

0:34

else. Those things like make up, like the real like tapestry of

0:39

our lives. [intro music]

0:51

Jamie: Welcome to Pixel Therapy, the video game podcast where we

0:53

look at the games we play through the lens of the player,

0:56

where what you play is just as important as how you play it.

0:58

And where emotional intelligence is a critical stat. Every other

1:02

week we bring on a guest who may or may not consider themselves a

1:04

gamer to discuss the games that have made them and changed them

1:07

and all the feelings they have about our favorite pastime. I'm

1:10

your co host Jamie pronouns, she her Spencer: and I'm your co host Spencer pronouns, they them.

1:14

Jamie: And this is Pixel Therapy. Buckle up your seat

1:18

belts, folks and friends because we've got some new and

1:22

noteworthies for you. Spencer: Strap yourself into your Snuggie or plush robe.

1:28

Jamie: Yes, yes, snuggies love that. All right, we're gonna

1:33

kick it off with our Patreon monthly shout outs. This is our

1:36

special thank you to the folks who are subscribed at the name

1:39

in the credits Tier or above, over on

1:41

Patreon.com/pixeltherapypod for the month of April. Those fine

1:46

people are Yinka, Vale and Jane. Thank you so much to you three,

1:51

we really appreciate you and everything that you're doing for

1:54

us. If you, listener who is not Yinka, Vale, or Jane, want to be

1:59

like those three and get your name in the credits, you can

2:02

head over to Pixel Therapy's Patreon where you can check out

2:06

our plethora of perks that start at just $2 a month and gets you

2:09

a monthly bonus episode including our May release which

2:12

dropped just last week in which Spencer and I take Quantic

2:15

Foundry's gamer motivation profile survey. We just you

2:21

know, we needed to figure out just exactly what kind of gamers

2:24

we even are and you know if I'm being honest Spencer I already

2:28

went in and changed a few answers. So-

2:30

Spencer: Oh my god, you would. I'm just like, "Okay!" Throws it

2:34

away next day. Jamie: That's anxiety for you. So if that sounds like something

2:39

you'd like to hear, then pop on over to patreon.com/pixeltherapypod and sign up for only $2 a month

2:46

today. Of course if that's not in the cards for you No worries

2:49

because there are lots of other ways to support the show and one

2:52

of those is of course rating and reviewing us on your podcast

2:55

platform of choice. Spencer it's happened again.

2:59

Spencer: It's happened? Jamie: Yes it has happened again. Which is and the it is

3:04

that we've got another five star review over on Apple podcasts.

3:09

From a lovely reviewer who goes by the handle forgetmenots24.

3:13

Spencer: We shall not. Jamie: We shall not forget you forgetmenots because you wrote:

3:18

"Best gaming podcast I have come across, exclamation mark! Best

3:24

gaming podcast I have come across exclamation mark! I found

3:28

this podcast accidentally when I saw someone on Instagram post

3:32

about it and I was initially drawn by the cover art."

3:34

Spencer: Oh, shout out to @jellodemon slash Zar, Zar

3:39

Sikora. They are freaking amazing and did our cover art so

3:44

thank you for-Thank you, Zar, for making such a great album

3:48

cover that it just pulled someone right in

3:51

Jamie: literally, literally brought in a listener. "I

3:54

thought to myself, it looks quirky and the art style makes

3:56

me feel like it will be a safe space. And oh, was I right?

4:00

Spencer and Jamie have created a beautiful space in which they

4:02

discuss and unpack games in a nuanced way being able to hold

4:05

both their love of gaming and criticism of the industry and I

4:08

think that is precious. They discuss topics so close to my

4:13

heart and it is nice to have a gaming space that acknowledges

4:16

and discusses queerness race, disability etc with so much

4:19

empathy and humanity while also tying it in with the emotional

4:22

experience of gaming and how we relate to games. I think one of

4:25

my favorite things about it is the fact that a discussion about

4:27

a game is never just flat and dry. mechanics are discussed not

4:31

only in respect to how they feel in play, but with respect to

4:33

what they what do they say? Are they accessible? Same goes for

4:37

narrative always looking at the bigger picture. Anyway basically

4:40

I love this podcast and you should give it a go. You'll feel

4:42

right at home and safe." Holy cow!

4:45

Spencer: Wow, I've never felt so seen. Jamie: Yeah, that was such a nice review. Thank you so much

4:51

for taking the time to write that for us, forgetmenots.

4:53

Spencer: Yeah, there's actual it's like an actual little tear

4:55

forming of my eye because I just, that, the way, I feel

5:00

precious. I'm glad that you find this precious because I feel so

5:03

held by your review Jamie: 100%, Yeah. And like, I don't know, it's just nice to

5:09

know that we're making a space where you do feel safe and where

5:12

you feel represented. And I don't know, yeah, I feel like we

5:15

do make a big effort to try to, like, hold all of the

5:19

complications of the things that we're talking about in our hands

5:22

at the same time. And yeah, so-

5:24

Spencer: But still keep it light. And cute. [laughs]

5:28

Jamie: Still make this you know, like, actually enjoyable to

5:30

listen to you. And, you know, not the opposite. So, thank you

5:34

so much for your kind words, and for taking the time to write

5:36

that to us, it means a whole hell of a lot. And reviews like

5:41

this, you know, we've said it before, but these are really

5:44

important for the growth and sustainability of what we're

5:46

doing here. So if, if you do have something to say about the

5:50

show, and you have a moment to drop us a rating or review, we

5:53

do greatly appreciate it, folks. And we may just have to read it

5:56

on the show, to let you know how much we appreciate you. Finally,

6:02

today, I have an update for everyone. As folks know, Spencer

6:06

and I did a lil', lil' fantasy draft over on

6:09

fantasycritic.games, where we picked the games that we thought

6:12

would review the best this year. And I have a little update for

6:15

folks on where things stand. Spencer, how does it feel to

6:20

have my foot up your ass? Spencer: Oh, my God. [both laughing] Well, I, what's the

6:26

context? Hold up, because this is another thing I completely

6:29

forgot. [more laughing] Smooth brain. It's only Stardew Valley

6:35

and coffee and sleep. I'm like, Where am I? Who am I? OMG, that

6:41

was visceral. What's the update? [still more laughing] Jamie: Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm not actually a

6:46

competitive person. But I do enjoy some trash talk. Like he

6:51

second that like someone's like really competitive, I'm like

6:53

"Nevermind, I yield!" and I show my belly and it's like "You can

6:57

win. I don't care." Yeah, so where things stand right now

7:02

over on fantasycritic.games. MeowMeowBeanz, which is

7:07

Spencer's illustrious publisher is sitting at a fat 19.1 points

7:14

right now. And that is off of two game releases. And that we

7:18

mentioned last time, which is It Takes Two and Oddworld

7:22

Soulstorm. However, I have had three game releases at this

7:28

point. And I so Monster Hunter Rise was my first one. I also

7:34

picked up Returnal a couple of weeks ago when I saw the

7:37

previews were looking good. And Resident Evil Village just came

7:41

out today. So the score might fluctuate a little bit. But at

7:46

this point, I'm sitting at 47 and a half points.

7:50

Spencer: Okay. Oh my god, I need to go. I need to. I'm just

7:54

living in my own little fantasy world. You're so smart looking

7:58

at what's coming out and updating your thing. OMG. Have

8:02

you played with Returnal at all? Jamie: I haven't. And honestly, I'm probably not going to. That

8:06

game. Hard games- Spencer: Scary.

8:08

Jamie: First of all, just it looks a little scary. But I'm

8:11

more just turned off by how punishing people are saying it

8:14

is. And I'm glad that folks are into that if that is what you're

8:19

interested in, please pursue it. I'm not-this is not me like

8:22

hating on anybody. But I just don't want a game that I might

8:25

have to put three plus hours into to just die and not really

8:31

get anything from it. And I've heard I've heard some folks

8:34

comparing it to Hades. But then in the way that they're talking

8:38

about it. I-look, I played Hades, I haven't played

8:40

Returnal, maybe it's an apt comparison. But I've also heard

8:44

folks saying that Returnal does not give you like progression

8:47

across deaths in the same way that Hades does, which I feel

8:51

like kind of misses the point about what made Hades so

8:53

special, which was that dying didn't feel like failure,

8:57

because it felt like you were still progressing. And I get

8:59

that this is like, this is a roguelike thing. Like, yeah, we

9:02

could talk about how roguelikes work all goddamn day to like

9:06

really get to the bottom of it. In general, it's not a genre

9:09

that appeals to me a lot as someone who like, does like to

9:13

feel like I'm progressing when I'm playing a game. And I know

9:16

progression can like manifest in a lot of different ways. But for

9:19

me personally like having to do the same thing over and over

9:23

again. Just it doesn't-Even though you are getting better at

9:28

the mechanics, you're getting better at the tools that you're

9:31

presented with, you're getting better at dodging the enemy's

9:33

attacks and learning the enemy's attacks. I don't like the idea

9:37

that I could play a game for 90 minutes, two hours, three hours,

9:41

get introduced to a new enemy, and not be given an opportunity

9:46

to really learn how that enemy works before I'm punished for

9:49

failing at it. Spencer: Ooo, I didn't think of that.

9:51

Jamie: And it does sound like that's the thing that this game

9:53

does. And it's something that Hades would do to to some

9:56

extent, right? If you run it-when you get into that new

9:58

boss fight but There's still something that felt more

10:01

accessible about Hades than than this one. So no, I'm not, I'm

10:04

not gonna play Returnal, are you gonna play it? Spencer: I'll probably watch some streamers play it because

10:09

yeah, I just get really stressed out and anxious playing games

10:14

with a lot of shooting, and then things where there's, like

10:17

monsters coming for me really quickly. Like, again, like not

10:22

yucking anyone's yums. But I do, I do appreciate the sort of the

10:26

discipline that it takes to, you know, identify those patterns

10:31

and get into a zone where you're, like, you're really

10:34

immersing yourself in the game and getting better and better

10:37

and better. Like, I can definitely see how that's rewarding. And I know there's people that get a lot out of the

10:42

kind of repetition of these kinds of games. I think, I tried

10:46

to play Control and just in the training section where I was

10:49

shooting my not even a real gun, but like, my mind gun, I was

10:54

getting stressed out. And so I just don't think I like guns,

10:57

but I like watching people also, I just I get so scared of

11:01

aliens. And so I think it's one of those times where I will just

11:07

watch someone else and support them from afar.

11:10

Jamie: Yeah. There's also been, this game has triggered the

11:15

discourse, the capital "D" discourse, I don't know, it's

11:19

just it's- Spencer: Why what happened? Jamie: Well, for one thing, the game is really inaccessible.

11:23

Like specifically to folks who have disabilities. There's no

11:27

save-you can't save during a run in the game. So anyone who might

11:31

not be able to just sit and play for three hours straight, right?

11:35

You're screwed. There's no difficulty settings at all.

11:39

There's no way to-there's no assist mode, no way to make any

11:42

adjustments. And so it's, you know, it's bringing out that

11:45

conversation of like, developers vision versus making games

11:50

accessible. And I just gotta say, I'm firmly on the side of

11:53

like, games should be accessible. If someone wants to

11:56

play a game, there should be a way for them to do that. And

11:58

like- Spencer: Your quote, unquote, vision sucks if it can't be

12:03

played by a fuck ton of people. Like, sorry.

12:06

Jamie: I want to be clear, I don't know enough about, like,

12:09

Housemarque is the developer has said, like, we see your

12:12

complaints, they haven't said like what they're doing, if

12:14

anything about it, they are not the ones though sitting here

12:17

saying like, this is our vision. This is this is the audience,

12:20

the audience comes out here. And they're like, "Some games aren't

12:22

made for everyone." It's a bad argument.

12:25

Spencer: Right. Because the vision is the story you're

12:29

trying to tell and the emotions you're trying to evoke, and the

12:33

themes you're trying to explore. The vision isn't, you know, Can

12:39

Can someone press pause? Or can can someone hear this? Or will

12:45

this control trigger xx action? Like that's not the vision,

12:48

that's just the the technical requirements needed to bring

12:51

your vision to life. So if you're not thinking about the

12:54

technical requirements, that's not about your vision, that's

12:57

just you not being inclusive. I don't know. It's just-

13:02

Jamie: Yeah, it's I think it's a, I think it's unfortunate, I

13:07

would love to see, I know that there are developers who are

13:10

paying attention to stuff like this and are moving in this

13:13

direction, I'd love to see Housemarque take this feedback,

13:16

and whether or not they're able to incorporate it into Returnal

13:20

specifically, or if they learn from this and they bring it into

13:22

the next game. Like, I feel like that's the best case scenario is

13:26

that this is heard and that there's learning from it. But I

13:28

really think people on the internet who are like, there's

13:32

also been a lot of shaming of folks who didn't finish the game

13:35

and still reviewed it. And it's just, there's, it's the it's

13:38

brought out that entire group of gamers who are like, you're a

13:42

gamer, if you play hard games, and are good at them, like just

13:46

that get good mentality. The game shouldn't make any

13:52

concessions to you as the player, you've got to be this

13:55

very specific type of person to be accepted as a quote unquote,

14:00

real gamer and I just hate it. It just sucks. I wish that that

14:03

side of the gaming community did not exist because it hurts all

14:07

of us. It hurts all of us. Spencer: Right. Like there's nothing wrong with turning the

14:12

game into sport. But games don't exist to be gauntlets through

14:17

which you prove whether or not you deserve to play a game like

14:21

like, yeah, that's a different thing. Like I don't know. I

14:25

don't like that. Jamie: I don't like it either. Yeah, I don't know. I just

14:30

wanted to mention it's been Yeah, it was one of those things

14:33

the whole week of the reviews coming out there was a lot of

14:35

conversation happening around it and I just I don't think we need

14:39

to be so exclusive in the way we provide these experiences.

14:46

Spencer: Cool. Well, even though I'm not gonna play Returnal,

14:50

I-more power to everyone that is, and I think if folks want to

14:54

read more about what others experiences have been with the

14:58

game, for better or for worse, someone you should definitely

15:00

check out is Steve Saylor. He also goes by the name of The

15:04

Blind Gamer and he gives like really cool accessibility

15:06

reviews. He has his own opinions about Returnal so if you want

15:09

o learn more about what Jamie's alking about, definitely check

15:12

ut his Twitter, Steve Saylor nd his recent podcast

15:16

ppearances, because I think e's been talking a lot about he game.

15:18

Jamie: Yeah, yeah, that was he's one of the main people that I've

15:21

heard is, you know, liking the game a lot. But but bringing

15:25

some I think, valid critiques of where it misses the mark in

15:28

terms of its accessibility. And yeah.

15:32

Spencer: Cool. Jamie: So, if you-we got on this conversation, if you recall-

15:38

Spencer: I hope you're already cozy. [both laughing] Jamie: We got on this conversation topic, because we

15:44

were talking about our fantasy draft. And if you want to hear

15:47

that original fantasy draft, you can catch that on our Patreon,

15:52

patreon.com/pixeltherapypod. We did do the original draft back

15:55

in March as our Patreon bonus episode. Alright, enough of the

16:00

news and the noteworthies and our derailed conversation. I

16:05

should have known we couldn't just get through a chunk of

16:07

these. That's silly me, silly me. But it is now time, folks.

16:14

If you have not already, please get cozy. Spencer: You're now allowed to get cozy,

16:18

Jamie: You're now allowed to get cozy. Before I hope, you know,

16:20

you were un-cozy. But now, it is okay to be cozy. To pull up your

16:26

arm chair, feel free to lie down on your couch. We're going to

16:29

talk about our feelings. Spencer, what are you playing?

16:33

Spencer: Yeah, well, um, you know, as I've mentioned, I've

16:37

been kind of in this space of playing some quick, light palate

16:42

cleanser type games. There's this tweet, I read the other day

16:45

that I thought was super relevant, especially for you

16:49

know, the guest we're gonna introduce to you in a little

16:51

bit. But this tweet was from Mekaelia Davis, who works in

16:54

philanthropy. You can totally find her on Twitter, but she

16:59

writes, "Can we please stop using the language 'return to

17:02

work' in our planning? We have never stopped working. We were

17:06

not on vacation. In fact, we've been working even more. Language

17:10

is important. Please and thank you." And she follows up by

17:12

saying, "You know, this isn't just folks who have had the

17:17

privilege of of not having their work interrupted. There are

17:19

plenty of folks who even without employers have been working so

17:23

much harder than ever before, to care for their families to just

17:26

survive." Like we've all been been working constantly non

17:30

stop. And so, you know, I think that this, this language around

17:35

returning to work returning to normalcy kind of just ignores

17:38

the fact that like, it wasn't like there was ever this was a

17:43

break. Jamie: A nice, little vacation year for all of us.

17:49

Spencer: Yeah. And so, you know, I've been, I think I've been

17:52

feeling kind of burnt out lately. And I'm trying to, like

17:58

now that we're all working, like so I'm someone who has a remote

18:03

job. So I'm basically on the computer on zoom all day long.

18:07

And I do find that just I don't know if it's just the repetition

18:12

or that everything be in the same space. But whereas I used

18:15

to kind of take less frequent vacations between longer spans

18:20

of time, I'm finding that my capacity for continued

18:23

uninterrupted work is like lower. And so things like

18:28

blocking off my Fridays to not have meetings, or maybe just

18:31

taking more frequent three day weekend vacations than like long

18:35

time vacations could be helpful. But with games, I guess, long

18:40

story short, I'm just I've just been tired and so I've been

18:45

playing some quick ones. There's a game that I'm excited to talk

18:50

about. And it's called Turnip Boy Commits Tax Evasion.

18:56

Jamie: I love the title so perfect. I just saying yes, I

18:59

have not played this game at all but the title just like it warms

19:02

my heart. Spencer: I feel like it it perfectly. It's just the

19:07

juxtaposition is incredible. Yeah, like I feel like that

19:10

title just it tells you everything you need to know about the game. So this developed by Snoozy Kazoo and

19:16

published by Graffiti Games. Jamie: I love that name too!

19:18

Spencer: Snoozy Kazoo is great. Jamie: Snoozy Kazoo. You guys got it.

19:21

Spencer: Yeah. Jamie: You've figured out how to do names. Spencer: Yeah you've really nailed it. Can you please help

19:26

us rebrand? Just kidding. Let me just read their little synopsis.

19:31

"Take control of an adorable turnip who happens to be an

19:34

absolute menace to society. After failing to pay taxes and

19:37

getting evicted from your home You must go on an epic quest to

19:40

pay back your massive debt to Mayer Onion, using garden tools

19:44

to solve fantastic puzzles, meet eccentric vegetables and fruits,

19:48

and take on treacherous fights along the journey to uncover

19:50

what's spoiling this garden community and rise to tear down

19:53

the corrupt vegetable government." Oh my god. So The

20:00

reason I wanted to talk about this game is because I

20:03

definitely picked it up having little expectations like it was

20:06

on sale It was like $4 on the Nintendo Switch e-store. And

20:12

it's it Look, it's beautiful. The pixel art is-the colors are

20:17

very warm and inviting. It kind of has a very like it. Like

20:22

folks who like Stardew Valley or Littlewood, or Cozy Grove like

20:27

those kind of lush and inviting.

20:30

Jamie: That's us! We like all those games. Spencer: Yeah. Like that kind of, you know, soothing and

20:39

nature filled environment like it has, it has all of that. It's

20:44

very, I was I was struck by how thoughtfully designed it was,

20:48

like the music is, is really engaging and well done. The

20:53

dialogue is like literally laugh out loud, funny, I don't know,

20:56

the last time I've I've laughed so hard playing a game that has

21:00

no voice acting. Like just the, it's so witty, and just has

21:06

these really goofy, but it's really sharp observations of

21:11

everything, like just our current kind of pop culture

21:14

moment. And just everything from streaming culture to, you know,

21:21

anime and manga to, you know, gentrification and kind of like

21:28

millennial attitudes, and just Gen Z trends and it's, but it

21:34

does it all with so much charm that you're never like offended.

21:38

You never feel made fun of it's, it's just like, we're all sort

21:41

of in this together. It's a it's a very self aware game. And I

21:46

and I also just love that it's so I think it can be sometimes

21:51

hard, or we talk about things like, like, just like earlier,

21:54

when we're reading that beautiful review about the podcast, like it can be hard to balance, having a cute, fun time

22:00

with trying to tackle really big topics like, hey, maybe

22:05

landlords shouldn't be a thing? Maybe gentrification and

22:09

capitalism are bad? Maybe like, like, maybe we should-

22:17

Jamie: Maybe we should start a revolution? [both laughing]

22:27

Spencer: Yeah. [more laughing] I don't want to say too much about

22:29

the plot because it's, it's, it's so fun to play and it's

22:33

really quick to pick up. It's not a super long game. Like you

22:35

could beat it in like eight to 10 hours. But it has all of

22:40

these elements that work really well together. Like it has

22:44

little farming elements, it has RPG like using a bunch of

22:48

different tools to solve a problem or beat a boss. It has

22:51

surprisingly robust and entertaining combat. Like the

22:56

you basically you're adventuring around, you're, you know, doing

23:00

tasks, you're meeting vegetables, you're helping

23:02

people or vegetables, vegetable people. And then you're having

23:08

these, these boss fights to progress to the next level. And

23:13

it's, it's designed, like I would say that there are

23:15

definitely levels but it's sort of laid out like an open world.

23:19

So it doesn't feel like a like a platformer. It's not a

23:22

platformer, like you're you're able to run around freely, but

23:26

it has surprising depth. And the boss fights like you really have

23:30

to get creative. In terms of like, figuring out the tricks to

23:37

getting your opening and making those hits. Like it's incredibly

23:40

satisfying, which I was not expecting from this little

23:43

turnip. Jamie: Is it like is it hack and slash? Like how are you

23:46

fighting? Spencer: it's kind of like a bullet hell situation is kind of

23:50

how I'd describe it. So you have you have what's called, like you

23:56

have a sword that you grew out of the ground and watered so

24:00

it's like a wooden sword that you fight with. You also have a

24:06

watering can where like there's certain plants where you can

24:08

water them and they turn into bombs and you can kick them at

24:11

the enemies. They also-there's this thing it's like a potted

24:16

portal plant. And it's literally like the orange and blue like it

24:19

creates portals like from the game Portal that you can use.

24:22

You can place them strategically to kind of like you could either

24:26

like you can jump in the portal yourself to jump across the

24:29

screen but you could also like set them up and then like throw

24:32

a bomb into the portal and then it'll come out the other end and

24:34

and hit someone or something like you can kind of use it

24:37

strategically. I don't know why. It's not like the games that are

24:42

funny can't also be thoughtful. Jamie: Yeah, yeah.

24:45

Spencer: But I was just kind of getting into it for the palate

24:47

cleansing aspect but I'm just delighted by all the care that's

24:51

been put into it and it's it's it's honestly a great time.

24:54

Jamie: Yeah, it looks cute as hell and I think like your point

24:58

about it. Truly laugh out loud funny games I really don't we

25:03

really don't see them very often. You know, you might you

25:06

might hit a moment here or there that a game might give you a

25:11

good belly chuckle but games that are made like to be

25:14

comedies to be comical, I don't think happens very often. Like

25:19

it's pretty few and far between. Spencer: Mm hmm.

25:22

Jamie: And and even then, like the ones that have have

25:25

happened, like I'm thinking of the South Park games which-

25:28

Jamie: -were fine, but it's that's not necessarily my cup of

25:28

Spencer: Right. Spencer: Or like WarioWare like mini games.

25:31

tea. So the fact that uh, yeah, they're-

25:36

Jamie: Yep. Yep. Spencer: Like, it's funny, because that's, it's made to be

25:42

funny and to kind of like, I guess I feel like a lot of funny

25:45

games. It's like, Everything about it is in service of the

25:49

fact that it, it it's almost it's almost not apologizing for

25:54

itself. But it's almost as if like, oh, funny games aren't

25:58

like real hardcore games. It's like its own genre of like,

26:02

you're doing this to almost like take a break from gaming and,

26:05

and the game itself becomes a joke. Whereas I feel like this

26:10

game is sort of the self awareness and the fact that you

26:15

are this adorable little turnip in a vegetable world, but it's

26:18

but it's the things that's talking about and speaking to

26:21

you are very, very real. Like, it's kind of turning the whole,

26:26

like, the whole what is a game and why do they exist, like on

26:29

its head. Like, it's interesting!

26:32

Jamie: Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. That's so cool.

26:35

Spencer: So definitely check out Turnip Boy Commits Tax Evasion.

26:40

It's on Switch. I think it's also on Steam. Awesome game. So

26:45

what have you been playing? Jamie: Thank you for asking Spencer. I have been playing a

26:49

little game called Emily is Away <3. Except the three looks like

26:55

it's the little heart thing or like- Spencer: Less than three?

26:57

Jamie: Yeah, less than three. So it looks like a little heart.

27:00

And I've talked about Emily is Away on the podcast before I

27:04

believe it was a lil' Rex at some point? It's a there's three

27:11

of them now. So Emily's away one, two and three. These are

27:16

games developed by just one person. His name is Kyle Seeley,

27:19

Everyone in Boston listens to our podcast.

27:21

independent solo Game Dev. I actually learned today that he's

27:23

based in the Boston area. So shout out Kyle. Thank you for

27:27

making these games. I really like them. He probably doesn't

27:31

listen to the podcast, but maybe he d Everyone in Boston listens to our podcast. Yeah. For folks who

27:40

are missing the reference here. Spencer and I are based in the

27:42

Boston area. So anyway, Emily is Away <3 is a really lovely

27:49

little game that I spent about six hours with this week, which

27:52

was enough to beat it. It's not very long game. I played it on

27:55

my computer, officially a PC Gamer now. So hit me up. I think

28:01

that makes me a real gamer. Right? Spencer: Yeah, you're like real now.

28:04

Jamie: If you play on PC- Spencer: Your card will be coming in the mail.

28:07

Jamie: Thank you. I'm so excited. Finally vindicated.

28:11

Spencer: Yeah. Jamie: Dashboard Confessional. Spencer: [singing] I am selfish. I am wrong. I am right I swear

28:19

I'm right. Jamie: Careful. You might get a copyright strike that was so

28:22

spot on. Spencer: Anyone remember Spider Man? Tobey Maguire?

28:27

Jamie: Spider Man 2 specifically? Spencer: Yeah.

28:29

Jamie: Had that soundtrack on CD. There we go. Throwback.

28:33

Which speaking of throwbacks, Emily is Away is a game series

28:37

that is absolutely designed to be a complete throwback, this

28:42

game is a little bit hard to describe. Because the whole

28:47

format for the game is that when you open it up, it makes it look

28:51

like you're on a computer from a different time period. And that

28:57

you're engaging with-So the first two games, all of the the

29:03

entire game plays out over AIM chat, AOL Instant Messenger, for

29:07

folks who grew up in the 90s

29:10

Spencer: By a different time period, you mean like 20 years

29:14

ago and not the 19th century? [both laughing]

29:20

Jamie: I do mean, 20 years ago, but do you It feels like feels

29:24

like so long ago. I mean, so Okay, I'll just I'll out myself

29:29

a little bit here. I'm 32 years old. I you know, in the 90s I

29:32

was that was like when I was growing up, right? So these

29:36

games really have a deep nostalgia for me that I don't

29:40

think I can, like, remove from my enjoyment of them. So when I

29:45

talk about these games, like I loved this game, I love all

29:49

three Emily is Away games. I don't know how much of that is

29:51

predicated on the fact that Kyle Seeley 100% nails the feeling of

29:58

what it felt like to interact with these applications, when

30:02

you were that age. So talking specifically about Emily is Away

30:06

<3. So the first two games play out over a fake AOL Instant

30:10

Messenger application. This third game is set at the

30:14

beginning of Facebook, it's set in 2008. The characters in the

30:18

game are in their senior year of high school, I graduated from

30:22

high school in 2007. So it's it's this is like, really like,

30:26

I feel like a deep connection with like, the actual time

30:29

period that's on display here. And it's Yeah, it's set at that

30:32

very those very early days of Facebook, in the game, they call

30:35

it Facenook. But basically, when you boot up the game, your

30:38

screen looks like your Facebook profile. And then when you play

30:43

the game, the way the game plays out, is that you're getting

30:47

Facebook Messenger chats from your friends. And it pops up in

30:51

the little box just like it would. And like they've nailed

30:55

the sound design, like it sounds exactly like Facebook sounded.

30:58

And they even like he even goes so far as to like when the game

31:01

is like loading initially, it like sounds like an old computer

31:05

booting up, Spencer: Oh, wow, and immersion.

31:08

Jamie: And the dial up sounds of the internet and connecting to

31:11

the internet. And then yeah, you get the little little pop noise

31:15

of the chat coming through. And your friends will say something

31:19

to you. And on the screen. in the chat box, you'll have 1, 2,

31:24

and 3. Three options of how to respond. And the text that you

31:27

can see, it's kind of just a sense of what the response is

31:30

going to be, it's not the full response that you're going to

31:32

have. But it's enough that it gives you a sense of the color

31:35

of that response, you have to press on your keyboard, one,

31:38

two, or three, based on what you want to say. And then after you

31:42

hit that button, you then have to pretend type on your keyboard

31:45

and, and the text of what you've chosen to respond with appears

31:49

in the box. So it literally it like corresponds with your

31:52

keystrokes. So it literally like it puts you completely you're

31:57

like it's the most immersion I think I've ever felt with a

32:00

video game experience. Because the way I'm interacting with it

32:03

feels like I'm I'm really truly participating in this narrative,

32:07

Spencer: Yeah the typing is really interesting as a function

32:10

of really, like I'm used to, you know, you select your direction

32:15

of dialogue or your or your literal dialogue option. And

32:17

then you see that portrayed. Jamie: Yeah, that's the end of your engagement.

32:20

Spencer: Yeah, the act of then actually having to craft it

32:24

yourself is really cool. Jamie: It's like the equivalent of like, if a game could both

32:28

let you choose your dialogue, and then force you to speak it.

32:31

But they've actually been able to do that, like you're both picking what you want to say. And then you're, it's forcing

32:35

you to quote unquote, speak and it's forcing you to forcing you

32:38

to input that into the thing. Now granted, I'm not typing out

32:40

exactly what the character is saying. But I'm still having to

32:44

get the text to appear on the screen in a manner that feels

32:48

like I'm actually doing it. So all this is to say is that like,

32:52

yeah, these these games are hella immersive. And I just, I

32:56

literally just, I spent probably four of the six hours that I

32:59

played just grinning ear to ear at my screen, because it's just

33:03

so immersive. Like, it made me feel like I was 17 again, in

33:09

Facebook, like having these chats with my friends.

33:12

Spencer: Back when engaging with social media and the internet

33:15

felt somewhat innocent. Jamie: Well, yeah, so this is exactly my point, right? Like I

33:19

was trying to figure out like, so I love the hell out of the

33:22

game. I think people should go play it, I think especially if

33:25

you're kind of in this age group, if you interacted with

33:28

Facebook, when it was young, and you have these memories of being

33:32

on there and chatting with your friends and, and having these

33:37

these tense interactions where it feels like you're baring your

33:39

soul. Spencer: Risky text, risky text!

33:42

Jamie: Right? Like and it's like you don't know, like you're

33:44

trying to feel out like Do they like me? Do they not like me?

33:48

And you know, where do we stand? Like, how do I seem cool, but

33:52

still available? Like how do I tell this person I like them

33:55

without telling them that I like them? They do the fucking notes.

33:58

The notes? Do you remember Facebook notes? Spencer: Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah, nostaligia hit.

34:04

Jamie: Yeah. So you get to do a Facebook note. There's one of

34:09

the you know, the girl-So the way the game plays out is that

34:12

and actually I in this game like it you create your, your

34:16

Facebook profile to start and and all the characters are

34:21

represented, rather than having like detailed pictures of each

34:23

of the characters. It's it's kind of just a pixelated

34:27

silhouette, silhouette of the character. And that's-and each

34:30

character is represented by a different color. So you pick

34:33

your own silhouette, and you can there's no gender attached to

34:37

the silhouettes they just have like, it was like six or seven

34:39

different ones that kind of look like different haircuts, and you

34:42

pick the one that you want. So I thought that was interesting.

34:45

There was kind of there was no sort of choice in that in the

34:49

previous games. It is I do think it's a limited narrative. I

34:54

think, you know, people who want to critique this game for it

34:56

being a small narrative limited. Yeah, you're probably Right,

35:00

like you're going into this game, it's essentially a teen

35:03

drama where your character can choose to romance one of two

35:12

girls, two young women in the game, there's Evelyn. And

35:15

there's Emily. And they're both a little bit stereotyped. It's a

35:20

little bit cliche. But at the same time, it's like they're

35:23

stereotypes in the way that they are people that I knew.

35:26

Spencer: Right. Jamie: Like, Evelyn is the one who like drinks a little too

35:30

much parties a little too hard. She likes punk music. She

35:33

smokes. Like I knew people like that, like, Yes. Is it, Is it a

35:37

high school cliche? Absolutely. But like, I knew that person.

35:40

Spencer: Right. Jamie: And like Emily's a bit more straight laced, she's into

35:43

indie rock. She does her homework on time. You know, I

35:49

don't know, these are people that I knew. So you kind of

35:51

you're in the because the dialogue is so well written. It

35:56

feels so real, it feels so authentic to like how we

35:59

actually communicated at that age. And on those platforms. It

36:02

just, it just sucks you in. It's, you know, my partner came

36:06

back here and knocked on the knock on the door to the studio

36:09

the first night I was in here playing it. And he was like, "uh

36:12

it's time to go to bed." And I was like, I'm trying to ask my

36:15

girlfriend to prom. I can't go to bed right now I've got to

36:18

find out if she's gonna go to prom with me. So-

36:22

Spencer: High stakes. Jamie: It is! It's high stakes. But yeah, I think kind of the

36:25

point you're making earlier about, like, when social media

36:29

felt more innocent, refreshing, I don't know, there's something

36:33

about this, that it really did remind me of what social media

36:39

and chat platforms how they used to feel like, it used to feel

36:43

like a place that you could try to find connection with someone

36:47

in a way that you couldn't do in person, because of all of you

36:51

know, as someone who has so much anxiety and like always has and

36:55

like is so introverted, like connecting with people IRL has

36:59

always felt so challenging, like I never know how to be or how to

37:02

hold myself or how to stand or, and then I think that's all just

37:05

exacerbated at the that age, when you're preteen, teenager,

37:10

you just feel so awkward and uncomfortable in your own skin.

37:14

And something about like being able to do that on the other

37:18

side of a computer screen, there was a level of intimacy I

37:20

remember achieving with my friendships, that was not

37:23

possible in person, like things we never would have said to each

37:26

other, if we were sitting face to face could be said through

37:29

the chat box because it felt like some, it both allowed you

37:32

to be vulnerable and felt safer at the same time. And that's

37:38

that was really, it was really special moment. It's like such

37:41

an I don't know if kids today get that in the same way because

37:46

of what social media has become. And also, I feel like,

37:51

especially now after a year of like living through this

37:54

pandemic, and living my entire life through screens and text

37:58

boxes, and only interacting people in this with people in

38:01

this way. Like I feel so burned out on it, I hate it so much.

38:05

And something about playing this game just like reminded me that

38:09

it that it used to feel special that there that there used to be

38:11

like a promise in it or a possibility of connection in

38:16

that that I don't feel when I engage with social media

38:20

anymore. And so it it ended up being like a really special and

38:25

refreshing little experience to have this week. It's $10 on

38:28

Steam. I think people should check this game out. You can run

38:31

it on a toaster. Yeah, yeah, I think people should check it

38:36

out. Especially if you're from that age group. It just yeah,

38:40

that's a really nice little way to spend a few hours this week

38:43

and remember how these platforms used to feel a lot less draining

38:49

and a lot more exciting. Spencer: That sounds so incredible. And what you said

38:54

about the possibilities really resonated, I think I know

39:00

something about social media today, it feels very

39:03

performative. Like you feel very pressured into presenting a

39:06

certain curated picture into your life, like it's very much

39:11

about others looking in and seeing something that you have

39:15

very intentionally crafted. Whereas I feel like back then,

39:19

like you said, it was it was just about connection, just

39:22

about sending out a line of text and, and getting something back.

39:27

Something that you could never say in the light of day. And

39:32

like, I think too, we were so we could be versions of ourselves

39:37

that we couldn't really be IRL, even down to like, I think back

39:44

then, like there was such an emphasis on profile pictures

39:48

that were, you know, drawings or photos of nonhumans or like

39:54

names like screen names that you could craft and like it was just

40:00

There was a playfulness there. It feels like we take social

40:04

media a lot more seriously now in a lot of ways.

40:08

Jamie: Well, I mean, it's how much like-employers look at your

40:12

social media now. Right? Like it you're, yeah, I think you're

40:16

kind of you're you're definitely hitting on it's like there. At

40:20

that time, it was much more a place to experiment and explore.

40:26

And I think now, your social media has to be the most

40:33

polished and like consumable view of yourself, because it's

40:38

like an advertisement for who you are in real life. And if

40:43

those things don't-Now, obviously, speaking broadly,

40:46

lots of people get on social media and are anonymous, but

40:50

then they seem to just like to be fucking assholes. It's like,

40:55

I don't know, there was something really special about-It wasn't, you weren't being anonymous, you were just

40:59

like, you were just playing with your identity in a way that felt

41:04

really free. And like, Facebook's trash man the whole

41:08

time. They were- Spencer: Of course. Jamie: siphoning all that information and being awful.

41:13

And, Spencer: I mean, it was an app invented so that dids could like

41:16

flip through all the women on Harvard's campus. So like, no

41:20

need to romanticize its origins.

41:22

Jamie: Yeah. This is not me, like defending Facebook or,

41:25

like, even it's it's really just me talking about like, what what

41:29

was special, what was special about Emily is Away. And what I

41:32

remembered was special about that time, when the internet

41:36

felt so much more full of possibilities than then I think

41:40

it it does today. And I don't know, the possibilities are

41:43

still out there I think if you look for them, I think maybe I'm

41:46

being a little cynical, but I too have just felt so exhausted

41:50

by social media lately. Spencer: There's a lot more risk today to the sort of becoming

41:56

that you would sort of be going through as you're growing up,

42:00

like we did in those sort of chat rooms and spaces. Like if

42:03

people saw the embarrassing things you said, or the, you

42:08

know, the the ways, because there'll be shitty to each

42:11

other, like, like, there's just there's no room for error in

42:14

today's social media. And I'm not saying that people, there

42:18

aren't people out there who deserve to be called out, held

42:21

accountable, canceled, etc. That's not at all what I'm

42:26

saying. But there's still like, in order to learn, you have to

42:31

fail and and to grow, you have to be uncomfortable. And I think

42:37

a lot of people try to be they spend so much time curating and

42:40

thinking through and, and planning how they're going to be

42:44

coming across that there's just very little space to fail or to

42:50

accept others who fail. Jamie: Yeah, yep. I agree with that. 100% modern social media

42:57

feels like there's a there's an invisible scorecard somewhere.

43:02

And someone's tallying the points. Spencer: Mark Zuckerberg.

43:12

Jamie: His face just like popped into my head and all I can do is

43:15

like laugh or puke. Spencer: Yeah. Jamie: Well I think we'll go ahead and transition over to our

43:22

guest for today. But yeah, you should you should all go check

43:25

out Emily is Away. Throw Kyle Seeley some $10.

43:28

Spencer: Feel something. Jamie: Yeah, go feel something, man. But anyway, this week,

43:34

we're chatting with Dr. Devon Price, social psychologist and

43:39

author of the book Laziness Does Not Exist, which is a

43:42

fascinating and thorough examination of what Devon calls

43:44

the laziness lie, which falsely tells us we are not working or

43:48

learning hard enough. Laziness Does Not Exist is filled with

43:51

practical and accessible advice for overcoming society's

43:54

pressure to do more. We spoke with Devon in depth about the

43:58

laziness lie, how the focus on productivity in our culture

44:01

functions as a tool of white supremacy, and how playing video

44:04

games just might be a bigger help than you may think.

44:07

Spencer: God, this interview really goes everywhere. It goes

44:09

all the places Jamie: it does. Yeah, it was one of those conversations that was

44:13

just it was electric from start to finish. And we're so excited

44:17

Spencer: And I did it in the closet.

44:18

to be- Jamie: Yeah, Spencer hard to start the interview by being

44:24

like, "lol, I'm in the closet and my cat is-"

44:27

Spencer: Scratching down the door. Jamie: "-scratching at the door." You know, podcaster woes.

44:33

Anyway, we loved talking to Dr. Devon Price, I hope that you

44:37

will enjoy listening to the conversation we had with them.

44:39

So without further ado, here is our interview with them. [music

44:44

break] Spencer: Hello to our wonderful guest and thank you so much for

44:53

joining us in the virtual Pixel Therapy studio. To start, would

44:58

you mind letting us know your name and pronouns? Devon: Yeah, my name is Devon Price and my pronouns are they,

45:05

them. Spencer: Thank you so much, Devon for being here. Devon, how

45:08

do you spend your time? Devon: I do love that that's the question instead of like, what

45:15

my what my job is, but right now, I've mostly been. I'm a

45:20

psychologist, and I'm autistic. So right now, I've been working

45:23

on a book about autism lately, it's been the thing taking up a

45:27

lot of my time, I just finished my first draft of that. So I've

45:31

been walking around outside a lot and putting off prepping for

45:36

the psychology classes I'm teaching over the summer. So I'm

45:40

in this, this balance of writing, psychology, trying to

45:44

be a hedonist as soon as it's possible to socialize again.

45:50

Those are the things that are, that are in my mind, and in my

45:52

life right now. Spencer: Oh my god, when you say that, just put it like counting

45:57

down the days until we can be hedonists again, like, it just

46:00

makes me think about, I don't know if this resonates with you,

46:02

but I feel like I've been talking with a bunch of trans people about how, like, in quarantine, and this, this space

46:08

where we've been so separate from any sort of queer community

46:11

that was physical, like so much of queer community before the

46:15

quarantine, like I, everything would be like a parade, or a

46:19

party or a dungeon party, or, like, just everything was, there

46:25

was a lot of places where it was our physical presence was very

46:29

important to the, to the sharing of space. And so also just the

46:33

fact that we're no longer seen in the same way that we used to

46:36

be, like, I found that a lot of my rules around like how I

46:40

present as trans-I've relaxed a lot of them and, and I, I may

46:44

have even gone through some period of not being sure what my

46:48

identity was when I was no longer defining it in relation

46:51

to how acceptable I was to cis people. And so that's just been

46:55

a thing, I don't know. I just said a lot of things. Does that

46:59

resonate at all? Devon: There's Yeah, there's so many layers to like how

47:03

quarantine affects you as a it's like, so the first point that

47:07

you're speaking to, like, right now, I feel like we're all

47:10

online. And so we have the worst parts of the queer community,

47:13

the worst elements of like, people being very anxious and

47:16

traumatized and re traumatizing each other, without any of the

47:19

good, joyous parts of like, getting to like, you know, go to

47:22

a bathhouse or something. So it's just like having

47:27

celebratory moments, and getting to show off your outfits, I

47:31

really miss all of those things being a part of people's lives.

47:36

And also it is such a trip, like I am one of the few people who I

47:40

was getting, once I started having to wear a mask outside,

47:43

like I would get gendered correctly more often, which I've

47:45

heard the opposite, particularly from a lot of trans masculine

47:49

people that they start getting, she/her-ed more often. But I had

47:53

the opposite experience. So in some ways, it's been cool. And

47:58

you know, I haven't had to put on my like, respectful reading

48:01

as the gender I want to be read as at work, drag, that's kind of

48:06

not the real, you know, it's it's the easy to parse version

48:09

of who I am. So being free of that is huge. It's just been a

48:13

real trip. It's just like, we're in our heads so much and like

48:17

having these big moments of introspection, which has been

48:21

great, and it's also been hell.

48:24

Spencer: A lot. Devon: Yeah. Spencer: It's funny, like with the mask thing, it just made me

48:29

think, like, my partner and I are both, I guess technically

48:32

trans guys, I don't even I don't even know what I am anymore. I'm

48:35

on I, I take testosterone and I'm, I'm gender queer. Let's

48:38

leave it at that. Devon: Mood.

48:40

Spencer: Because before the pandemic before masking, I feel

48:44

like when he and I were out and about and seeing together, I

48:48

think he presents very masculine like, even the way he carries

48:52

himself, like I've always been kind of, like some people are

48:55

just born. And they are like, I don't know, I don't want to say

49:00

this in a way that would invalidate anyone's gender identity. But everything about him just exudes boyishness like

49:05

down to the way he carries himself and his voice. And even

49:09

before he was ever on T, people would think that he was a cis

49:13

man, just by mistake. Not that there's any way to look cis,

49:16

necessarily, but that's just a thing that happened. But in the

49:21

past, people would read us as a gay couple, gay, gay masculine

49:24

couple. Cuz I have facial hair. And I don't know, when I was

49:28

binding and stuff, that was a thing. But now that we're in

49:30

masks, anytime anyone glances at us, they just assume that I'm a

49:33

woman, and he's a guy. And it totally made me think like, I

49:38

don't know, like, what is it about me? Like, these gendered

49:41

habits are so deeply ingrained in our society. And so we could

49:45

talk for an hour about gender. But let me just take a quick

49:48

conversational left turn. [all laughing] The reason we brought

49:51

you here with us today, Devon is, as you mentioned, your

49:56

writing-so prolific! You're working on a new book, but you

49:58

actually wrote another book that's really freaking awesome.

50:01

It's called Laziness Does Not Exist. And in this book you,

50:05

Devon really like debunks and illuminates how this fear of

50:09

being perceived as lazy and our avoidance of, of laziness, is so

50:15

destructive to our health, to our well being. And it even

50:18

affects the way we see other people and kind of poisons that

50:20

too. I feel like I've seen this book all over the place lately,

50:26

people are really, really resonating with it and being

50:28

like, Oh my god, this is like all the things that I never had

50:32

the words for. Thank you for writing this book. Just because

50:36

the book is about how pervasive this laziness lie is in our

50:40

society, like how does that feel hearing all of this praise and

50:43

how amazing it's been for people to read the book?

50:46

Devon: Yeah, so there's this phrase that I encountered on a

50:50

blog, and that was for adults who were estranged from their

50:54

families that kind of went viral a few years ago. And that author

50:57

describes themselves as sad-proud of like, Oh I'm

51:01

connecting with all of these people. And so many people get

51:04

this pain of having to go no contact with your family. And

51:08

it's, I'm really proud of that, but I'm really sad that it's

51:11

even needed. So it definitely feels very sad-proud to realize,

51:17

okay, yeah, this problem is really huge. Everybody feels

51:20

like they're lazy or not doing enough. Everybody is pointing

51:23

that same laser of judgment at everybody else. And people need

51:27

to hear this. And it's, it's kind of harrowing to me how

51:32

often people need to hear it, because even the same people

51:35

will react will respond to me saying laziness doesn't exist in

51:39

whatever way multiple times. Because you have to hear it so

51:42

many times because it's so ingrained in us. So that's like,

51:45

Oh, God, is the work ever going to end kind of a feeling

51:48

sometimes. Spencer: Yeah. And and Devon, what is the problem? What is the

51:53

laziness lie? Devon: Yeah, so the laziness lie is my kind of handy term for a

52:00

bunch of implicit beliefs that are really deeply embedded in

52:03

our culture, and really deeply embedded in our history, about

52:07

the value of productivity, and that being how people's worth is

52:12

defined. So I break it down as having kind of three core

52:16

tenants, that your worth is defined by your productivity,

52:20

that you can't trust any needs or limitations that you feel

52:24

inside of yourself. Because those are really just barriers

52:27

to your productivity. And then the third tenet of the laziness

52:30

lie is that there's always more that you could be doing. So even

52:34

if you are just really working yourself to the bone in one area

52:38

of life, you can feel bad about the fact you're not doing enough

52:40

activism, or you're not showing up for your friends emotionally

52:44

enough, or your house is a mess. Like, there's just an unending

52:47

litany of things to feel inadequate about, and we can't

52:50

ever really win, if that's how we define our lives.

52:57

Spencer: And when we talk about laziness, like what are some

53:02

ways that we can sort of reframe our understanding of it?

53:07

Devon: Yeah, so the first thing, I think, is just learning to

53:11

kind of observe and describe how you feel and how you spend your

53:16

time with a spirit of observation. And this is data.

53:20

This is not something I'm going to judge as this is wrong, that

53:23

I'm spending my time this way, or that I need this many hours

53:26

of sleep, or video gaming, or whatever it is just noticing

53:29

your habits and going, Okay, this is how I actually live my

53:32

life, I might set out to do you know, 20 things on my to do list

53:36

every day. And I never hit that number. Instead of beating

53:40

myself up for it. Why can't I look at Okay, I only tackle

53:43

about five things on the to do list per day. Maybe that's what

53:47

my to do list should look like four or five things. And that's

53:52

kind of a simplified version of it, but really just looking at

53:55

when do I feel tired? When do I feel cranky? What times of day

53:58

is it hard for me to pay attention. And instead of seeing

54:01

that as a problem to solve by drinking more coffee or beating

54:04

yourself up over it just going, Okay, I need a break. I'm tired.

54:09

I'm not focusing. Let's go do something else.

54:13

Spencer: That's so real. Like what you're speaking to earlier

54:15

of this fact that no matter what we can never win, because it's

54:20

like, if you take the time to take care of yourself, then

54:23

you're neglecting your friends or you're not working as hard as

54:26

you could if you spend too much time on work, then you're not

54:29

taking any time for yourself or, again, your friendships suffer.

54:34

I think it's hard to focus on the like just because of

54:37

quarantine and stuff we've been so isolated. So maybe the

54:40

personal time can also start to feel like work because at least

54:43

for me, like with everything being on zoom, zoom just feels

54:46

like a hell portal where that sucks all my energy and so I

54:49

don't want to be with my friends on zoom. I want to be off of the

54:52

computer and I can't do that. So I think that's just just really

54:57

relatable is when you step back and look at it like We keep

55:00

telling ourselves just try this and it'll it'll fix things,

55:04

you'll have the balance. When really the system's designed to

55:06

never let you get that balance.

55:10

Devon: Yeah, yeah, self care is a total like sham like, like,

55:14

yes, it's true that we do need to do things to take care of

55:16

ourselves. And, you know, develop skills, even if

55:21

sometimes it's like sneakily finding ways to get the time

55:23

that you need, like, you know, to-or finding the tools to

55:25

advocate for yourself, but like, it's not going to fix the

55:28

structural problem that we're all working more and more for

55:31

less and less, historically speaking. And, and that's also a

55:37

big tension in my work, like, how do I give people practical

55:39

advice, while also saying, hey, if you find that you, there's

55:42

nothing that you can do. That you're doing your best to try

55:46

and navigate this stuff, like, you're not a failure for still

55:49

being exhausted, because it's set up that way. [music break]

55:58

Spencer: Something I really liked is that there's also multiple Mad Men references in the book. Specifically, you

56:05

quote how Matt Weiner, who's the creator of Mad Men. He once said

56:08

that the show was about, quote, unquote, becoming white. And I

56:13

thought maybe Devon, would you mind taking a minute to kind of

56:15

explain that phrase, like, what does it mean to become white?

56:19

Devon: Yeah, so so whiteness, of course, is a social construct.

56:24

It's this kind of big idea of like, the neutral default state

56:28

of being that absorbs more and more groups of people over time,

56:33

because of their proximity to privilege, right. So like, the

56:36

most famous example of that is that Italian people weren't

56:39

always considered white, they certainly didn't have the same

56:42

level of oppression as lots of other like darker skinned people

56:45

in the US. But there was kind of this idea of like, you deviate

56:50

from the norm of the people who colonized this country in enough

56:54

ways, both visibly, and culturally, that we see you as

56:57

other and lesser to some extent. But so like, whiteness is just

57:00

kind of this idea of kind of the monolithic, you know, occupying

57:06

force. And, and anyone who kind of deviates from this image of

57:11

not only like, conforming to a certain kind of European

57:15

culture, that's pretty narrow, but also being having a level of

57:19

status where you're not presenting like an inconvenience

57:23

to anyone else, or kind of violating the culture's rules,

57:27

those kinds of things are like seen as kind of like deviating

57:29

from whiteness. So, so in Mad Men, Don Draper, obviously like,

57:34

is a white man, but he's a, he's from a hillbilly family. And for

57:40

a really long time, in American culture and history, we've had

57:45

this image of quote unquote, white trash or quote unquote,

57:48

hillbillies, as people who are white, but because they're poor,

57:53

and because they are in multi generational homes, and their

57:57

cultural practices are a little bit different, that they are

58:00

like a betrayal of whiteness, they're like an embarrassment to

58:04

whiteness, if that makes any sense. In Mad Men, Don Draper

58:09

kind of learns to hide where he's from, he has to change his

58:12

name. These are all you know, decades old spoilers, and take

58:17

on a new identity and create and hide all also all of the kind of

58:21

like abuse and trauma that came from his life growing up in

58:23

poverty as well to make himself into this like sanitized man in

58:28

the gray suit, very poised, no emotions, no needs, you know, he

58:33

becomes less and less of a human being. And that's really what it

58:36

is to become white. So even though it is a little tricky,

58:41

like I don't ever want to, like give the implication that like,

58:45

you know, coming from like a hillbilly family that is, you

58:47

know, mostly white passing through several generations at

58:51

this point, like, yes, people in that situation are white, and

58:54

they do have white privilege, but the whole fact that we have

58:57

this concept of whiteness is used to like destroy cultures,

59:02

and, and sanitize and silence. If that makes any sense.

59:07

Spencer: Yeah, thank you. And there was a passage around this

59:10

chapter of the book where you write: "The laziness lie

59:13

encourages people to conform for the sake of succeeding at work.

59:17

We're rewarded when we choose to become white in our

59:20

presentation, professionalism and work habits. From a young

59:23

age we're taught to admire women writers who had to take male pen

59:26

names in order to be published, and to celebrate the black

59:29

inventors and scholars who had to work twice as hard as their

59:32

white peers for a fraction of the money and acclaim. The

59:35

people who resist the world's bigotry are branded as lazy

59:38

complainers who don't have what it takes to succeed. The more a

59:42

person can buff out all their rough edges, becoming as smooth

59:45

and featureless and normal seeming as possible, the more

59:49

they and everyone around them can ignore systemic problems and

59:53

focus on being productive." Which backs again to this whole

59:57

laziness myth. This passage, it-and I think you speak on it

1:00:01

specifically later in the chapter. Just for folks who-you

1:00:05

should read this book, just read this book. But it just it really

1:00:08

resonated with me as a trans person who has often been told

1:00:11

that my presence in a corporate environment is distracting,

1:00:15

which is something that you speak on as well. Like, for me,

1:00:19

I think as a younger person, and as someone pre before coming out

1:00:23

and transitioning, which I had to do publicly because of being

1:00:26

an office. I really thrived-I really thought that I thrived in

1:00:30

corporate environments. I saw work as a place that had very

1:00:33

clearly defined rules. And if I followed those rules, I could

1:00:37

get ahead didn't matter that I was mixed race, didn't matter

1:00:39

that I was queer, it didn't matter what my background was. I

1:00:42

thought that if I came in and followed the rules, I would be

1:00:45

okay. After I came out, I realized that those rules

1:00:49

weren't there to equalize the playing field, they were there

1:00:51

to make sure that only certain types of people got ahead. I did

1:00:54

nothing else than just existing in my body. But my body became

1:00:58

more and more threatening to people, the less and less, it

1:01:01

looked like what people expected to see from someone of a certain

1:01:03

gender. And it just completely shattered everything that I had

1:01:06

believed about the work environment, like every year

1:01:09

would pass, and I would see more and more of my trans colleagues

1:01:12

having to take leaves of absence having to leave the corporate

1:01:15

world to take a job that was not as stressful, having to take

1:01:18

medical, like, Who knows when they're coming back to work? And

1:01:22

every time that happened, I thought, Oh, you know, that

1:01:26

won't happen to me, because I was feeding into this laziness

1:01:28

lie that it was must have been something, you know, that I

1:01:33

don't know what it was. But then it got to the point where it was

1:01:36

happening to me, I could not keep going. And I just think

1:01:39

that people don't necessarily think about how all of these

1:01:44

aggressions and oppressive actions, and even the ways that

1:01:49

to ourselves and each other, that we tear each other down or

1:01:52

separate ourselves from each other. Because of these tenets

1:01:57

of, of laziness that we've internalized so deeply, like it

1:02:00

really fucks you up. So [chuckles] Devon: Yeah, and it makes you so easy to exploit, right? Like the

1:02:05

whole promise that like if you just work hard enough, that will

1:02:08

make up for how bigoted the world is against you.

1:02:11

Spencer: Right. Devon: That it's possible to do everything right. It makes you

1:02:14

so compliant and exhausted and apologetic, and it just worsens

1:02:19

all of the problems and injustices ultimately.

1:02:23

Spencer: 100%. So Devon, what does it look like when we stop

1:02:27

pressuring ourselves so much to be this quote, unquote, normal

1:02:31

seeming? Like, who can we be when we stop measuring

1:02:35

everything we do in comparison to the laziness lie? I was

1:02:38

curious, like, in your own experience, how you've seen that

1:02:41

kind of unlearning process manifest in positive ways.

1:02:45

Devon: Yeah, so for me, it's a lot of saying no. It's a lot of

1:02:49

saying like, what's your budget for this? It's a lot of like,

1:02:51

being at a meeting and being like, why are we here? Do

1:02:55

we-does this need to be a meeting? Do we need to be doing this? Is this a realistic goal? And I know that like, because

1:03:02

I'm a professor, I'm able to, like, be really candid about a

1:03:07

lot of these things. And I have flexibility over my job, and my

1:03:10

commitments, professionally and otherwise in a way that most

1:03:14

people don't. So I always do want to highlight that. I think,

1:03:21

in certain professions and fields we do get it really

1:03:24

drilled into us that we're not allowed to say, No, or to ask

1:03:27

questions, when actually, if we do take that step, it frees up

1:03:31

everyone around us to do the same. So I do kind of encourage

1:03:35

people to like question like, Can you say no? Can you question

1:03:40

things? Can you say, Well, I spent this many hours on this

1:03:42

thing that I'm not getting credit for, in any way, it's not

1:03:45

part of how my job is evaluated. So can we like restructure

1:03:48

things here? Because I think it does get really drilled into us

1:03:51

to be passive, compliant, agreeable, and to not be

1:03:56

difficult. And when we are more, quote, unquote, difficult, it

1:04:00

helps everyone around us by re establishing like a new culture

1:04:04

where it's okay to do that. But at the same time, again,

1:04:07

incredibly privileged thing to have that, you know, to not have

1:04:10

firing hanging over my head for things like that. So I think,

1:04:15

you know, some of the other forms that takes for me outside

1:04:18

of the workplace are still similar things, you know, being

1:04:22

okay, disappointing, a family member or a friend, turning off

1:04:27

all of my notifications on everything, and just like

1:04:29

cultivating relationships where, you know, like, I might send you

1:04:33

20 texts in a row when I'm really excited about something

1:04:36

and you might do the same to me, and then sometimes we might not

1:04:38

talk for a week or two, and that's fine. You know, like

1:04:41

really developing those relationships where you can say,

1:04:45

No, I don't feel like it. I don't like this. I'm

1:04:48

uncomfortable. I can't commit to this, you know, and, and getting

1:04:53

tolerant of the like distress that comes from saying no, when

1:04:58

you're so used to compulsively being a people pleaser and

1:05:00

saying yes all the time. Spencer: Does it get any easier to say No? [laughing]

1:05:06

Devon: It does. And it doesn't like there's some things where I

1:05:10

am very, very confident in it now professionally because I

1:05:14

know I can get away with it. And with certain friends who have

1:05:16

proven time and time again, they're not going to be assholes

1:05:19

to me if I say no to something. But there are still things where

1:05:24

I have to, like, let my tears be the thing that speaks for me,

1:05:29

because I'm not really willing to hear my own No, that's like

1:05:33

screaming inside of me, sometimes for just like, really

1:05:36

silly things. Like I was watching this show with my

1:05:39

partner that like, there was a character in it that was like,

1:05:42

basically a drag King, but it kind of hit in a very

1:05:46

transphobic way to me, and I felt stupid for being offended.

1:05:51

And so it's like, he could tell I was upset. And I was like,

1:05:54

he's like, you want me to stop the show? And I was like, No, it's fine. You know, like, wanting to be cool and not

1:05:59

difficult. But then I started crying. And that was such a good

1:06:03

thing. You know, like, our emotions protect us. And so I

1:06:07

think that's a big part of it. Sometimes. Sometimes, the way

1:06:09

that we stand up for ourselves is really messy. And it looks

1:06:13

like crying in the middle of a show you don't want to watch because you're embarrassed. Like, I think that's like

1:06:18

equally, like, that's really important to do, too.

1:06:21

Spencer: Yeah, your body's like, I've got you. Validating you.

1:06:24

Yeah. Devon: Yeah, my body was like, okay, you're, if you're not

1:06:27

going to protect us, I'm going to protect us, bitch. [all

1:06:31

laughing] Spencer: Turn off the show! [more laughing] [music break] Bringing it back to gaming, I just thought it was-I really

1:06:50

wanted to bring you on the show because I feel like by and large

1:06:53

to people who don't understand them, video games are seen as a

1:06:57

huge red flag of laziness and a total waste of time. In your

1:07:02

book you write, like, literally that wasting time is a basic

1:07:06

human need. And it's one of the keys to start building a

1:07:09

healthy, happy life. I was wondering if you could take a

1:07:12

minute to say more about what it means to waste time and why

1:07:14

Devon: Yeah, so we treat ourselves like we're like

1:07:14

that's important. objects. We like self objectify in these horrible ways where we

1:07:21

see our minds and our bodies as just a means to an end. How am I

1:07:24

going to earn money, learn a new skill that's going to be

1:07:27

valuable to an employer or somebody else? How can I make my

1:07:31

needs smaller and smaller, and my own desires smaller and

1:07:34

smaller, so that I can like maximize my productive capacity?

1:07:38

And it's all for other people. It's not for us. And, and our

1:07:42

brains and bodies really can t ll the difference between s

1:07:44

mething that we're doing be ause we feel like we have to, or

1:07:47

that we're doing out of a se se of, you know, economic co

1:07:50

rcion, or just fear about the fu ure, versus when we're just sa

1:07:54

ing, Okay, I'm doing this be ause it's playful, it's jo

1:07:58

ful to me. It has no goal. And and throwing time and att

1:08:04

ntion into things that are quo e, unquote, wastes of time is re

1:08:06

lly, really restorative. And ev n more important than that, be

1:08:11

ause this isn't all about li e, restoring your capacity to go

1:08:14

back and be productive again. It s just part of what makes li

1:08:17

e pleasurable. You know, li e, when we look back on our li

1:08:19

es and think about the things th t matter to us, sometimes ac

1:08:23

ievements will figure in th re. But a lot of times, it'll be

1:08:26

like, Oh, this play that I wo ked on with friends that no

1:08:29

ody came to and didn't sell an tickets. Like, Oh, this d&d ga

1:08:33

e where we came up with these hi arious jokes. And you know wh

1:08:35

t? We didn't record it, it wa n't a podcast, it wasn't, it wa

1:08:39

n't something for anybody el e. Or, you know, hours that we

1:08:43

that we spent on a video ga e, or you know, on some forum on

1:08:47

ine, those things like make up like the real like tapestry of

1:08:52

our lives. And they really re lect us like, listening to wh

1:08:57

t actually feels good versus th s is going to earn me ap

1:09:00

roval, money, secure my st tus in society, because I'm re

1:09:05

lly vulnerable. And we really di count that stuff, to the po

1:09:10

nt of even being embarrassed so etimes to talk about the th

1:09:13

ngs we put a lot of time into th t aren't like impressive, or mo

1:09:15

etizable. Spencer: Yes, yes. Oh, god, what you just that last part about

1:09:23

being ashamed or embarrassed to share something that doesn't,

1:09:26

you can't derive value from? You mentioned that just talking

1:09:32

about, speaking of hours spent playing games. In the book, you

1:09:36

mentioned this phenomenon called vacation guilt. It's kind of

1:09:40

like an American thing where there was this 2018 Glassdoor

1:09:43

survey that found that Americans only used half of their vacation

1:09:47

days and already Americans have like half of the allotted

1:09:50

vacation days of like Europeans. Like I work in a company that

1:09:54

has a lot of Irish employees and a lot of American employees and

1:09:58

folks over there, get at least like three to four weeks of

1:10:01

vacation, and whereas folks in the US are want to just not do

1:10:07

it at all. Like I work at a company that has unlimited

1:10:09

vacation days, but what you find is that when they're not given a

1:10:12

min-I feel like people should be given minimum vacation. I think,

1:10:14

Jamie, you and I have talked about this before, but people should be given vacation minimums, because if you just

1:10:18

tell them, do whatever you want, they're gonna feel so guilty

1:10:22

that they're not going to take any on that. And that's fucked

1:10:24

up. But back to the point, I feel like I have gaming guilt,

1:10:30

because games always keep track of how many hours that you play.

1:10:33

And it can be tough for me to not look at that number when it

1:10:37

feels like a blink of an eye 50 hours have gone by and not feel

1:10:41

guilty in some way. But while I was reading your book, I was

1:10:44

thinking like, why can't I reframe that? Why not look at it

1:10:47

as 50 peaceful hours? 50 hours I spent free of stress and

1:10:52

obligations? 50 hours that were packed full of achievable goals

1:10:56

that I could progress towards and grow from? Just 50 hours

1:11:00

that were a gift to myself? And isn't it also, you know, a

1:11:05

testament to the people who work for years, in some cases to make

1:11:09

these games that they commanded 50 hours of my time? Like, I

1:11:12

just think that it's a simple reframing, but it just really

1:11:15

speaks to how we, you know, just assign negative values of these

1:11:20

things that aren't immediately tied to capitalism.

1:11:24

Devon: Yeah, yeah. And the fact that that time went by, like in

1:11:27

a breeze for you, like, that tells you that you were having a

1:11:30

lot of fun and you were immersed, and you were away from

1:11:33

your like, everyday worries for like, once in a goddamn while,

1:11:37

which we all need so desperately, especially now, but

1:11:40

always. And, and it's so funny that like, if someone gets lost

1:11:44

in a book, and they read a book in a single setting, we would-we

1:11:48

never moralize that like, basically ever unless it's like,

1:11:51

if somebody wants to go with a really like sexist or age-ist

1:11:54

like, oh, you're reading YA fiction? You're frivolous or

1:11:56

whatever. Like that sometimes happens, but, but usually if

1:11:59

someone reads because we decided for some reason that reading is

1:12:03

like hard and rigorous and therefore acceptable.

1:12:07

Devon: You can get lost in a book. But if you get lost in a

1:12:07

Spencer: Right. video game, people immediately pull up these stereotypes of,

1:12:16

and there's a lot of things tied up in it, right? Like the like

1:12:19

fat lazy gamer who doesn't have a job. Like I think of all the

1:12:24

prejudices that are all nested within each other there. And

1:12:28

it's and also it being immature, that's another kind of bigotry

1:12:32

that gets wrapped up in there that there's certain ways to spend your time that are that make you an adult, which

1:12:37

basically means make you a person. Spencer: Builds charachter, yeah.

1:12:40

Devon: Yes, yeah. Versus if it's like being a child. That's, you

1:12:44

know, that's unacceptable. So yeah, it sucks. And I still have

1:12:48

that too. I have that about, like, watching anime and manga

1:12:50

and stuff like that also. Spencer: Yeah. Oh, my God, mood. Um, and then it also makes me

1:12:56

think too, in your book, you write about burnout and to burn

1:13:00

out is basically what happens when we work too hard and too

1:13:02

long without rest. It can result in emotional apathy, crankiness,

1:13:07

loss of purpose and identity. You were writing about the work

1:13:12

of social psychologist, let me know if I'm pronouncing her

1:13:14

name, right, Christina Maslach? Devon: Mmhm.

1:13:17

Spencer: So Christina Maslach found that "curing burnout isn't

1:13:20

just about working less. Burnout is actually far less common when

1:13:24

you feel rewarded and recognized and when work isn't just an

1:13:27

endless slog." With that in mind, I guess I was wondering if

1:13:31

you had any thoughts on how video games may actually have

1:13:34

the capacity to be really helpful in treating burnout?

1:13:38

Devon: Yeah, so, so one thing we can look at here is why so many

1:13:41

people find games so motivating and enjoyable. And that is

1:13:47

because pretty much just like you said, it's the inverse of a

1:13:50

burnout creating structure. Like workplaces that cause burnout

1:13:53

are really emotionally taxing, you don't get appreciated for

1:13:57

the work that you're doing. The work never seems to end or

1:14:01

progress in any way, you just feel really powerless. And also,

1:14:04

like you're just constantly grinding, which there are some

1:14:07

video games like that. And we can actually talk about how

1:14:11

games have gotten, sometimes increasingly that way, certain

1:14:14

games and, and being all about achievement hunting, which for

1:14:19

me ruins the game experience. But like, people like having a

1:14:23

structure people like having the ability to progress and say I've

1:14:26

grown I can do this kind of attack. And so now I can handle

1:14:30

this kind of Boss, I have this tool. So now I can open this

1:14:32

part of the dungeon. That is really, really rewarding for

1:14:36

people, especially in a world where you're like email inbox

1:14:39

just never empties and you never get any acknowledgement of

1:14:43

you've worked really hard on this report and it's great. You

1:14:47

and you don't get any pay raise related to it either. So video

1:14:51

games really give a lot of people that that hit of dopamine

1:14:54

is really helpful especially for people with ADHD who really like

1:14:58

having both reward and structure and stimulation in a way that

1:15:03

like, our world just has a dearth of for most people. And

1:15:09

it also lets you feel powerful and like you have choice and

1:15:13

control over things. And that's also really important because we

1:15:17

are so disempowered in so much of our lives.

1:15:20

Spencer: Hmm. Oh my god, it's so true. And back to what you were

1:15:23

saying a minute ago, like about achievement hunting, I'd be

1:15:27

curious to hear your perspective on like, how you've seen games

1:15:30

sort of maybe even leaning too far into that.

1:15:34

Devon: Yeah, so I am someone who, if a game feels like

1:15:38

checking my email, I find it really aversive. So a lot of

1:15:41

things where you have to like, constantly, like be crafting and

1:15:44

stuff like that. I know a lot of people find it incredibly rewarding to do that stuff. But there's this YouTuber, Jim

1:15:51

Stephanie Sterling, I don't know if you know them. But they talk

1:15:54

a lot about how, like the proliferation of like,

1:15:58

microtransactions, and loot boxes and DLC, not in every

1:16:02

game, but in a lot of games, those are designed to keep people pumping money and time into the same game over and over

1:16:08

again, even if it is like pretty joyless, just oh, I need to get

1:16:12

this achievement so that I can get this skin because the game

1:16:15

doesn't let me just buy the skin that I want, or buy the, you

1:16:17

know, upgrade that I want. And game developers, especially the

1:16:22

big ones, the triple A developers have really started

1:16:25

learning a lot from casinos, and just gambling psychology,

1:16:30

basically to learn how to kind of manipulate people into

1:16:33

pumping more time into something.

1:16:35

Spencer: [whispering] Genshin Impact. Devon: Yes, yes. Oh, even though I do really love like-that game

1:16:39

is beautiful and fun, but like, yeah, grinding and yeah, and

1:16:44

gacha stuff-It's so frustrating. So some of those things are like

1:16:48

literally designed to be frustrating, just in right, the

1:16:51

right level where someone thinks, Oh, I almost got the

1:16:54

thing I wanted, I'm going to keep going even though I'm not

1:16:56

having fun. Versus games that have more of a spirit of play

1:17:00

and open endedness. Again, that's not for everyone.

1:17:03

Sometimes people do want, here's what you, here's a goal for you

1:17:07

to meet. And that can be really rewarding. But yeah,

1:17:11

unfortunately, some of the big games for the big studios have

1:17:15

gotten all about just draining you of money and pissing you

1:17:18

off. Spencer: It's fascinating. Like it, like, I guess I turn to

1:17:22

games to get like we talked about that little dopamine hit

1:17:27

of good job, you did it! And I always am, I'm always of the

1:17:32

belief that games are fair. At least I have this impression

1:17:36

that games, that games I buy for my console or whatever, that

1:17:39

they are inherently fair, like, they would never betray me. And

1:17:43

so I think it gets scary, to, like, I found watching my

1:17:52

partner play Red Dead Online, just like a open world wild west

1:17:56

situation. And it's like you can, you can work and toil and

1:18:03

eventually get enough money to buy the thing. Or you can just

1:18:06

spend a couple real life US dollars to get the thing and

1:18:10

move on to the next achievement. And I don't know, it's, I think,

1:18:14

too, because it's so immersive, you can easily find yourself-a

1:18:18

bunch of micro transactions can add up into something that you

1:18:21

never even anticipated. But it but the root of it is just

1:18:25

searching for that little piece of a good feeling that we are

1:18:31

just completely deprived of in any world that we're

1:18:34

experiencing in reality. So it's just all the way down.

1:18:38

[laughing] Devon: Yeah, I think I'm glad you brought up the point of

1:18:42

fairness like this idea-or like that there's, you know, there's

1:18:45

a consequence for an action in like a positive way in games,

1:18:49

most of the time, that like we were taught as kids that that's

1:18:53

how the world works, that we live in some meritocracy, where

1:18:55

if you just be confident, work hard for yourself, things will

1:18:58

pay off. And of course, that never happens for most of us. So

1:19:02

having that realm and just having the ability to like alter

1:19:05

your appearance, to go do something different if you're

1:19:08

not enjoying one side quest, like the the freedom and, and

1:19:12

what a game gives back to you relative to what you put into it

1:19:16

is so-I don't know "healing" might be a little bit too much

1:19:20

sometimes, but like, but like it is very satisfying. And it's, if

1:19:24

only the world worked like that.

1:19:27

Spencer: Yeah, so true. [music break]

1:19:35

On this show, we typically like to ask folks to talk about a

1:19:39

specific game that had an impact on their life. Devon, you

1:19:42

mentioned a game called Ico that was really important to you. And

1:19:45

for folks who may not be familiar. Ico is a PS2 game that

1:19:48

came out in 2001. And it's basically a spiritual prequel to

1:19:52

Shadow of the Colossus, which is a very, like cult classic. It's

1:19:56

one of Jamie's favorite games. So y'all have heard about it plenty of times. But the protagonist in Ico was a young

1:20:01

boy who was born with horns, which his villiage considers a

1:20:05

bad omen. Warriors lock him away in this creepy abandoned

1:20:08

fortress where he meets Yorda, the daughter of the castle's

1:20:11

queen. The two of them pair up to escape with Ico keeping Yorda

1:20:17

safe from the shadowy creatures that are attempting to draw her

1:20:21

into the Queen's clutches and throughout the game, it's like a

1:20:24

like you control Ico as he explores the castle, solves

1:20:27

puzzles, lots of spatial stuff and platforming. And Devon, you

1:20:32

mentioned that you played Ico as a teenager. I'm wondering like,

1:20:35

what immediately pops into mind when you think of the game? What

1:20:38

makes it hold on so strongly in your memory?

1:20:41

Devon: Yeah, so Ico is one of those games that I will forever

1:20:45

be like the, I don't know, the like stoner uncle who's trying

1:20:49

to tell you to listen to some album from before you were born.

1:20:51

You know? Like this is where it all started, man. Like [alll

1:20:57

laughing] Like, a lot of people know Shadow of the Colossus is

1:21:00

this beautiful, artsy, very moving game. But like Ico is the

1:21:04

blueprint, baby. Like it was the first game that made me really

1:21:08

realize video games could be art. And not even in this

1:21:12

intellectual way. It's just that it was like moving me as a good

1:21:16

work of art does and transporting me. You know,

1:21:20

there's no user interface, there's almost no cutscenes or

1:21:23

dialogue. There's no boxes that pop up when interacting with

1:21:27

anything, there's no tutorial, you are just dropped into a

1:21:30

world and you have a stick. And you are trying to get out of

1:21:33

this temple. And you have someone that you hold hands

1:21:36

with. And when you run with her, you can feel the little

1:21:38

vibrations as you're holding hands. So it's this incredibly

1:21:41

like tactile, dreamlike, beautiful world where you are

1:21:50

just like you've been like cursed and you're just trying

1:21:52

to-and you've been like told your whole life that you're like

1:21:55

supposed to be a human sacrifice. And like, I think

1:21:59

there's a little bit of a trans masculine air of like, oh,

1:22:01

you're born with these appendages you don't want.

1:22:03

Spencer: Yeah. Devon: Like he's born with these horns. That is very resonant.

1:22:08

And by the end of the game, they get they get knocked off. And he

1:22:11

he's freed of that. Spencer: [gasps] Devon: Yeah. And. And it's very beautiful and moving.

1:22:17

Spencer: Yeah. Devon: So like he basically, yeah, he gets top surgery. [all

1:22:22

laughing] And you're escaping this prison alongside this person who is,

1:22:29

there's a lot of themes of like kind of implied themes of like

1:22:32

the cycle of abuse in families, where you there's this girl that

1:22:35

you're helping also rescue from this prison. And she is the

1:22:39

daughter of this evil queen. And she finds out that she's

1:22:42

supposed to be the vessel for this Queen who's going to like,

1:22:45

inhabit her body and take it over, because she's like,

1:22:48

getting old, the queen is. So it's like, okay, like you are

1:22:52

both a victim of this thing. And you're going to become the next

1:22:55

person to enact this thing unless you get the hell out. So

1:23:00

it's like, Spencer: Breaking the cycle. Devon: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So it's about two people finding

1:23:04

each other in just complete isolation and kind of abuse and

1:23:07

being told both of their lives that you're fated for this

1:23:10

horrible thing. And then taking care of each other, and getting

1:23:15

out of there together. And it also happens to be just like,

1:23:18

incredibly beautiful, wonderful puzzles, like just tactile, very

1:23:23

satisfying, like, again going to hold hands. To save you go and

1:23:27

like sit on the couch together and lean on each other's

1:23:29

shoulders. So it's just like, Oh, it's so moving. And it's

1:23:33

just all about like connection as the as the way to escape

1:23:37

abuse, basically. Spencer: Mm hmm. And yeah, I think something else that stood

1:23:42

out to me was just that there's this language barrier between

1:23:46

the two main characters, like Ico, I think speaks a couple

1:23:50

times in the game, but Yorda like her dialogue is represented

1:23:54

with these kind of pictographic symbols, like a language that

1:24:02

they created for the game. And just the fact that you never can

1:24:06

understand each other but through the lifeline of touch.

1:24:12

Like I've-everyone I've seen trying to talk about this game

1:24:14

just starts crying because of the emotional impact of it.

1:24:18

Devon: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you brought the language barrier up

1:24:20

because it is all about this like evolving relationship where

1:24:22

it's first it's just like, well, Who the hell are you? What do you want? Like, you have magical powers? I'm just like some boy

1:24:28

with a stick. What are we trying to do here? And like the

1:24:31

char-the other character Yorda just like wanders off to like

1:24:34

chase after like doves, and like, look around the castle

1:24:36

that you're in. But as your relationship kind of builds,

1:24:39

then you're more in sync. And you can work together to kind of

1:24:42

fight and solve puzzles. And you can tell her like, you can

1:24:45

gesture like here, you need to go over here, but she always

1:24:48

still has a will of her own. So it really is like an evolving

1:24:52

relationship. And there is a game that they came up with

1:24:55

after Shadow of the Colossus, The Last Guardian that is all

1:24:58

about you and this giant beast. And like, as your relationship

1:25:02

evolves, he listens to you in a different way, not better, he

1:25:06

never becomes an extension of you, it's just that you can

1:25:08

communicate better, which is like, just so beautifully done.

1:25:13

Spencer: I love when games, because I think games are often

1:25:16

designed to put the player at the center, and then you are you

1:25:21

become the master of a world like the world bends to your

1:25:25

will. And there's nothing that you can't do. I love games that

1:25:28

sort of remind you that you're a guest in the space and that it's

1:25:32

world exists independently of you. And that a character is

1:25:36

someone that you can bond with, but that you'll never fully

1:25:38

control. I think that's maybe the closest you can get to

1:25:41

forming a relationship in real life. I just, it's a really

1:25:45

powerful thing. Devon: Yeah, and you're really small in this game, like, you're

1:25:49

just like a little boy in this huge castle. And you have like

1:25:52

little wooden sandals on that just kind of clack against the

1:25:55

tile in this way that just really sends home like how, how

1:25:58

weak you kind of are. And like there's little, you know, this,

1:26:03

the castle's in a state of decay. You eventually get to the

1:26:06

area where the sacrifices, the human sacrifices happen. And you

1:26:09

can see that it's been happening for centuries, just from the

1:26:12

number of like, sacrificial, like pods are there. So it gives

1:26:16

you a sense of your, your place in time as well. And so you're

1:26:21

just really small, and the world is vast and beautiful and

1:26:24

horrible. And that is just, I think part of what makes it so

1:26:27

moving and overwhelming to be within.

1:26:30

Spencer: Mm hmm. And were there any other reasons that like,

1:26:36

what was-What made Ico so important to you at the time

1:26:39

that you were playing it? Devon: Yeah, I think it is. It really just hits on a visceral

1:26:45

level. Some of those themes that I was just talking about, like

1:26:48

when I was playing it at 13, I wouldn't be able to say like,

1:26:50

Oh, yeah, clearly this is a trans masculine allegory about

1:26:54

escaping abuse. Like, that game doesn't have to tell you what

1:27:00

it's about. Like it doesn't, it doesn't tell you. There's other

1:27:02

people who would play it, who would get a completely different

1:27:05

resonance with it, because it is just two really like, you know,

1:27:10

vulnerable people protecting each other, and a really

1:27:14

beautiful transporting environment. So like we were

1:27:16

talking about escapism earlier, it's just so easy to just like

1:27:20

disappear into that world, because it is so beautiful. And

1:27:22

it's not asking you to achieve any particular thing other than

1:27:27

survive and explore and discover what little weird things you can

1:27:30

as you go. And you know, gosh, what else was I playing at the

1:27:34

time, like I was playing a lot of like Zelda, which I

1:27:36

absolutely loved, and is a beautiful game, but it is more

1:27:39

structured, you know? It is more like, here's your rupee count.

1:27:42

Here's, you know, here's how you do a spin attack. Whereas this

1:27:45

was just like, utterly magical and otherworldly.

1:27:50

Spencer: Incredible. Devon, thank you so much for being here

1:27:53

with us. I had an incredible time. It's also nice to just

1:27:58

have Devon around to finish my trailing thoughts when I'm just

1:28:01

going derailing and having Devon be like "I'm actually glad you

1:28:05

brought up x let me let me take you home." [all laughing] Where

1:28:12

can folks follow you and learn more about your work?

1:28:15

Devon: Yeah, so my writing is at devonprice.medium.com. So that's

1:28:19

D-e-v-o-n-P-r-i-c-e.medium.com. And then on Twitter, Instagram,

1:28:26

all of those places. It's @drdevonprice.

1:28:30

Spencer: Dr. Devon Price, thank you so much for joining us.

1:28:32

Everyone, you simply must check out Laziness Does Not Exist.

1:28:36

Thank you so much for joining us. It was pleasure. Devon: Thanks so much for having me. This was great. [music

1:28:42

break] Jamie: Time is up for today's session of Pixel Therapy. Thank

1:28:51

you for tuning in. And we hope that listening to our thoughts

1:28:53

and feelings gave you some thoughts and feelings of your

1:28:55

own. If you want more Pixel Therapy come check us out at

1:28:58

patreon.com/pixeltherapypod where you can snag that monthly

1:29:01

bonus episode for just $2 a month plus opportunities to get

1:29:05

involved with the community and influence the show directly. If

1:29:07

you're not up for contributing monetarily but you enjoyed this

1:29:10

episode you can show your support for free by rating and

1:29:13

reviewing us on Apple podcasts and following us on Instagram

1:29:16

@pixeltherapypod. That stuff is just as important and we

1:29:19

appreciate it just as much. Remember that Pixel Therapy is a

1:29:22

happy member of the But Why Tho Podcast Network so you can

1:29:24

support us by supporting them and heading over to

1:29:27

butwhythopodcast.com. That's though with a t-h-o. Take a peek

1:29:31

at the inclusive geek community they're building around pop

1:29:33

culture news, reviews, and kick ass podcasts like yours truly.

1:29:36

And you can keep up with all this stuff and more by visiting

1:29:39

our website at pixeltherapypod.com. Spencer: Finally, since we like to put our money and our energy

1:29:45

where our mouth is, we end every episode with a recommended side

1:29:48

quest. Thank you so much to Devon for the recommendation

1:29:51

this week. This week we're so excited to talk to you about the

1:29:55

Lighthouse Foundation of Chicagoland and you can find

1:29:58

them at www.lightfoundchi.org, that's light-found-c-h-i.org. So the Lighthouse Foundation was founded in 2019 and grew out of

1:30:09

a community need observed by members of the Lighthouse Church

1:30:12

of Chicago, a predominantly black and queer, LGBTQ affirming

1:30:16

faith community. It was founded in response to the sheer depth

1:30:19

of macro and micro aggressions, threats to safety, and deep

1:30:23

unwelcome experienced by black queer Chicagoans. The

1:30:26

organization also found that there was overwhelming support

1:30:29

from people outside of the Lighthouse Church who wanted to

1:30:32

get involved and make that community grow. And this led to

1:30:35

the creation of the Lighthouse Foundation. The Lighthouse

1:30:38

Foundation invests in black LGBTQ liberation internally by

1:30:42

developing black queer leaders, a cohort that builds community

1:30:46

sets goals and creates public programming for black queer

1:30:49

people. They also focus on leadership development, capacity

1:30:52

building and economic sustainability to grow black

1:30:55

power through institutional longevity. They write "We work

1:31:00

for black LGBTQ liberation externally by pursuing community

1:31:03

organizing, organizing campaigns that challenge institutions to

1:31:06

invest in black communities, address black needs, and follow

1:31:09

black leadership. Our leaders are queer, multiracial cohort

1:31:12

who direct the broader coalition of accomplices for racial

1:31:15

equity, where non black supporters follow our lead by

1:31:18

donating, amplifying our work and showing up for direct

1:31:21

actions. BQC leaders identify targets of our racial justice

1:31:24

campaigns and leaders move targets through the following

1:31:27

stages: development and assessment, training, initial

1:31:30

actions, escalations, deeper actions and evaluation all with

1:31:34

input from black queer leaders." So again, check out the

1:31:38

Lighthouse Foundation of Chicago at lightfoundchi.org where you

1:31:42

can donate get involved and learn more about this really

1:31:44

awesome grassroots organization. Jamie: Awesome. Thank you for that side quest, Spencer. That

1:31:49

is our show for today. So go forth, run a story mission,

1:31:53

level up some stats and don't forget to hug an NPC every now

1:31:56

and then we'll be back soon with some more-

1:31:59

Spencer & Jamie Together: Pixel Therapy.

1:32:03

Jamie: Buh bye