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1:02

Hey, this is DeRay and we're

1:04

going to pause and save

1:06

the people in this episode. It's

1:08

me, Miles, Kai and Yara talking

1:11

about the news with regard to race, justice and equity

1:13

that you didn't know, but should know. Then

1:15

I sit down and talk to author and political theorist,

1:18

Juliet Hooker to talk about her new book, Black

1:20

Grief, White Grievance, the Politics of Loss. I

1:23

learned a lot and she was so great with

1:25

the definitions and how we frame

1:28

conversations about race in this moment.

1:33

Family,

1:33

welcome to another episode

1:36

of Pod Save the People. I am De'Arra

1:38

Ballinger. You can find me on Instagram, saying

1:41

very little at De'Arra Ballinger.

1:44

I

1:46

am Miles E. Johnson. You can find me

1:49

on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok,

1:52

threads, Poplox,

1:58

at Pharaoh Rapture.

1:59

I'm Kaya

2:02

Henderson at Henderson Kaya on

2:04

Twitter. This is Durea

2:06

at DREA Wall on Twitter. Y'all my

2:09

news today and so many ways

2:11

I feel like this can't be true, but

2:13

perhaps it may be.

2:17

So the headline of this Guardian

2:18

article is half

2:20

of Britons can't name a black

2:23

British historical figure a survey finds.

2:26

Like half of them? Half,

2:29

half.

2:30

Because even

2:32

in here, go to old America,

2:34

I would

2:37

think a lot more than half even given

2:40

where black studies and critical

2:42

race theory is this moment that

2:44

still people in America could name at least Rosa

2:46

Parks and Martin Luther King.

2:48

But evidently, according to the study,

2:51

the researchers found

2:53

that the UK shows shockingly little

2:56

about knows, shockingly little about

2:59

black British history. 75% of

3:02

British adult surveyed acknowledge that they did

3:04

not know very much or anything

3:06

at all about the subject. More

3:09

than 53% could not recall any

3:12

black British historical figures and

3:14

only 7% can name more than

3:16

four.

3:17

This article also reminds

3:20

us that black people were

3:23

descendants of Africa got

3:25

to Britain about 12,000 years ago. So

3:29

we're not talking about just

3:32

kind of a post civil rights post

3:35

slavery moment. 12,000 years

3:38

ago, there are there's

3:40

historical facts,

3:42

etc. about descendants

3:44

of Africa settling in Britain. So

3:47

I'm just I'm sorry, as I was reading this, I was just

3:49

finding it absolutely

3:51

ridiculous. And maybe it

3:53

is sensical. And maybe it's

3:55

a telling of what can happen

3:57

is a community that has contributed

3:59

so much.

3:59

much to a society is not talked

4:02

about, let alone celebrated. But

4:04

so partly this study came to

4:07

be because,

4:09

forget who the publisher is exactly.

4:13

But the story came because a book

4:15

was being written. Bloomsbury

4:17

Publishing commissioned the survey

4:20

recently after they published

4:22

an acclaimed book, Brilliant Black British

4:24

History, celebrating the people who helped build

4:26

Britain in the fields of science, sport, literature, and

4:28

law. And so clearly

4:30

there's a great importance for this

4:33

book, particularly since half of the UK adults

4:35

and I name a single black historical figure. And

4:38

the author of the book says that

4:41

she would at least expected figures. And

4:44

I wasn't familiar with these figures, but

4:46

then I started to do a deep dive

4:48

into them and how

4:50

incredible. Quintus Lomius

4:53

Arbicus, who was a governor

4:55

of Roman Britain, the formerly enslaved

4:58

Equana, Equiana, who became an

5:00

abolitionist and writer. Mary Seacole

5:03

provided sustenance and care for British soldiers during

5:05

the Plameon War and composer

5:08

Samuel Coleridge Taylor. She

5:10

said that they have always been

5:12

people with black and brown skin in Britain from the Stone

5:15

Age, through every single era to the present day. More

5:17

than that, the forced contribution of millions of

5:19

black

5:20

people before and during the Georgian era

5:22

changed the course of British history, helping

5:24

Britain to become the first industrialized nation

5:26

in the world and a superpower.

5:29

She also called for government to drive

5:31

more integration of black British history into

5:33

schools and universities, noting

5:35

that as the world becomes more polarized and divided,

5:38

increased inclusivity is needed now more

5:40

than ever. All British history needs to be taught

5:42

as one history. It's all our history.

5:45

So I just found this to be fascinating.

5:48

I think I'm still processing what

5:50

I think about it. I also think

5:51

about just like the black diaspora

5:54

and how we communicate or don't communicate

5:56

and what has worked in

5:58

terms of organizing. mobilisation

6:01

in some places better than others. I

6:03

think it's also weird when we think

6:06

about like how black folks have contributed

6:08

to making like Britain a superpower and like,

6:12

I don't know how that really plays in my mind. So

6:14

I just thought this was an interesting take because,

6:16

yow, I mean

6:19

I'd read this headline and be like I never want to

6:21

live in England.

6:22

I love the interiors there but when I think

6:24

about politically where I want to be it would

6:26

not be this place. So

6:29

I don't know I just wanted to bring you to the pot I just thought it'd be

6:32

interesting for a little chatter

6:34

and I hope I don't get in trouble with like my

6:36

black British friends who are like this must be impossible

6:38

but I don't know y'all I'll

6:40

be trying to tell y'all. I'm not gonna hold you.

6:43

Sometimes I'm a teacher some days I'm student.

6:45

I thought about it and less we

6:47

are talking about scary spice and slick Rick

6:50

my own

6:53

knowledge of black British folks

6:56

is Naomi

6:58

Campbell Naomi Campbell. So what

7:01

I would want to say is I think that black

7:14

Americans specifically because

7:16

we've had such a rain on

7:19

culture cultural productions we've

7:21

been able to inject our

7:24

history in so many different places I remember

7:28

the Zionist company McDonald's having

7:31

big Martin Luther

7:33

King Day and Black History

7:35

Month and jazz things that's

7:37

always been a way that we've been like engaged with

7:39

specifically around February. February itself

7:42

has turned into a type of corporate let's

7:44

get the Negroes moment and

7:46

I think that almost helps

7:49

us a little bit because a lot of times I'm like we wouldn't we

7:51

wouldn't get this any other way because

7:53

it was not happening through school unless we're just talking about like

7:56

are you're timing the Martin Luther King so I don't

7:58

think there's anything

7:59

particularly unique or bad

8:02

about these black British people or these

8:04

British people don't know about their own black

8:06

history. I think it's designed that way and

8:08

I think the only reason that

8:11

a lot of times black Americans have is because A, we've

8:14

been able to infiltrate media

8:16

and culture in the way we do and inject it

8:18

with that. But yeah, it kind of looks

8:20

like that's what we would be, where

8:22

we would be at if we didn't take history into

8:24

our own hands through culture and media. Does

8:28

that make sense?

8:30

I would add on

8:32

to that not just through culture and media

8:35

but as paltry

8:37

as we might think it is, the

8:40

fact that we have Black History Month and

8:42

we've had it since 1926 actually

8:45

matters. Just looking

8:48

at this and Black Brits just

8:50

got Black History Month in 1985 or 86. So

8:55

right, so when

8:57

you have a government school

8:59

system that is not interested in

9:02

teaching you, I mean you don't get me started,

9:03

I'm doing my very best to like not

9:06

go full ham on you because

9:08

this is what I do all day every day. Black

9:10

History and Black Culture because there

9:13

is all kinds

9:13

of research that shows that when children

9:17

see themselves in what they are

9:19

learning, when they see positive

9:21

examples of people who look like them,

9:23

right? You know representation matters in movies,

9:26

but it matters significantly for education, for

9:29

academic success,

9:29

for confidence, for leadership, for all

9:32

of these things.

9:33

And so, you know, this country

9:35

has basically disempowered Black

9:37

people by making sure that they are not

9:40

included in the history that

9:42

they learn in school. Oh, and this is particularly

9:45

appropriate right this second in these United

9:47

States of America because,

9:49

you know, we have a significant chunk of our

9:51

population that is trying to go

9:53

back to that, that is trying to erase

9:56

people of color and LGBTQIA

9:58

people from

9:59

history and that is, it's

10:04

offensive, first of all, it's untruthful,

10:06

second of all, but probably

10:08

more dangerously, it is so disempowering

10:12

to people. It is another

10:14

way to keep our children

10:17

enslaved, minoritized,

10:19

and all of those kinds of things. And so it's

10:22

not

10:23

surprising to me at all the aura

10:25

that this is

10:27

the case. And my hat's

10:30

off to the Black folks in Britain who

10:32

are writing books like Brilliant

10:34

Black Brits or whatever the name

10:36

of the book is and for, you know, commandeering

10:39

themselves into Black History

10:41

Month. If we don't, I mean, we

10:44

have to seize on the radical

10:46

tradition of education that belongs to us.

10:48

These people tell us that our community doesn't

10:51

value education. But in fact,

10:53

we've been teaching ourselves from the very beginning, we've

10:55

been teaching ourselves from, you

10:57

know, in ancient times

11:00

and in times where it was literally

11:02

a danger to our lives to

11:04

learn to read and write. And so,

11:07

you know, we have to continue the

11:09

radical tradition of self education

11:11

because we cannot rely on these

11:13

government institutions to teach us and

11:15

our children who we are or who we can be.

11:17

Okay, I'm off my soapbox now. Thank you for

11:20

playing.

11:21

A good soapbox it is. The

11:23

only thing, so y'all nailed this one. The only thing

11:25

I'd add is, you know, it's so funny. I think there's

11:28

a generation of us, I think everybody

11:30

on this call miles, I think you might be

11:32

the last in the crew who like we all know

11:34

the same like you like Mary

11:36

McLeod, Bethune,

11:38

Carter G,

11:40

Malcolm, Rosa, like

11:42

we learned there's like a set of people that

11:44

we learned about and everybody learned about

11:47

of y'all know and I was there's a

11:49

group of younger people in the generation behind

11:51

mine who like, you know, I said

11:53

something about Mary McLeod, but then the other day, I'm like, who's

11:55

that? And I'm like, Oh, we've got here. I

11:57

just am so used to everybody just

11:59

know like there's just like a set of them, who

12:02

you're like, everybody knows them. And we're

12:04

at a point now where I think everybody knows Martin

12:06

and Malcolm and Rosa a little bit. But

12:09

we are losing that like, I think I take for

12:11

granted. Same thing how I feel about church. There's a group

12:13

of us who like, you know, you ain't been in church

12:15

in a long time. I know the songs, I

12:18

know the hymns, I can finish the sentence,

12:20

I know the call and response, because we grew up

12:22

in it. And there is a group of young people who

12:24

like, they just don't know that. And I'm,

12:27

and I am, that worries me a little bit. And I

12:29

read this, DR, and I'm like, well, we, that's

12:32

gonna be, you know, you pull a generation

12:35

after mine and that will be, you know,

12:37

if not for Martin and Malcolm, I think that we might

12:39

be in a similar situation soon enough. So

12:41

shout out to Reconstruction Kaya

12:44

and a reminder that even though the

12:46

month has a lot of issues, we

12:48

gotta keep it up. This,

12:52

before we go to the next news, that also makes me

12:54

think that February is coming up and

12:56

that I wanna be more intentional

12:59

about my global understanding

13:02

of black culture, because that was embarrassing

13:04

for me. I was like, I don't know anybody. So

13:07

I'm on this ride with some

13:09

black British folks.

13:12

Maybe this, maybe this will, maybe

13:14

we should think about this February.

13:18

Last February, we did the Blackest Book Club.

13:21

Maybe we need to focus on heroes, unsung

13:24

heroes and heroines that people

13:27

should know about.

13:28

Love that. So my news, you know, we say

13:30

that it all boils down to race and

13:33

really it does. It really is, insert

13:35

here and it's about race in the end. So

13:37

you probably know that Nashville is called the City

13:40

of Music or Music City. And

13:44

I had always thought that was because of country music

13:46

because, you know, that is

13:48

one of the homes of country music

13:51

in the United States. And I've been to

13:53

Nashville and I've seen the Music City

13:55

stuff. And I was like, okay, this is cool. Got

13:57

it. It like makes sense to me that this is country.

14:00

And then lo and behold, it's black people.

14:02

So Fisk University, which

14:04

is a HBCU, the

14:07

Fisk Jubilee Singers

14:10

were formed in 1871. They

14:13

were obviously a singing crew and

14:16

they were credited with saving

14:18

Fisk University from financial ruin because

14:20

they made so much money from

14:23

touring. And they were

14:25

performing slave songs all across

14:27

the country. And they were invited

14:29

by Ulysses S. Grant to perform at the White

14:32

House. And they really did

14:34

put Nashville on the map when it came to

14:36

breaking racial barriers. Now,

14:38

Queen Victoria was in the audience

14:41

and heard the Fisk Jubilee

14:44

Singers sing. And the story

14:46

goes that she said they quote, "'Must

14:49

be from a city of

14:51

music.'" And

14:54

that is actually where Music City

14:56

came from. From

14:58

the Fisk Jubilee Singers.

15:02

And I say that because I was one of

15:04

the people who definitely was like, this is

15:06

country music. That's why they called this,

15:09

da, da, da. And no, it's the Fisk

15:11

University. It's the black people who

15:14

were singing. And that is where it came from. This

15:16

is so timely. I was

15:17

in Nashville Thursday and Friday of this past

15:20

week. And I knew

15:22

this story because I have had

15:24

the opportunity to visit Fisk and

15:26

hear the Jubilee Singers.

15:29

And in fact, the conference that I was

15:31

at last week on Thursday

15:33

night, the dinner featured the Fisk Jubilee

15:36

Singers.

15:37

And it is very

15:39

interesting because you absolutely

15:41

think that Nashville is all about country

15:44

music, but it is also even

15:47

more recently the

15:51

sort of seats of just music

15:54

production,

15:57

Cece Winans lives in Nashville,

15:59

Jill Scott.

15:59

Scott lives in Nashville. Like there

16:01

are all of these black artists who live

16:03

in Nashville because of the

16:05

music industry there. And

16:10

I was in Nashville I think last year sometime

16:13

and they have the most amazing

16:16

Museum of African American music.

16:19

It is you know probably my

16:21

second favorite black museum after

16:24

the Blacksonian here in Washington but it

16:26

is a masterpiece of

16:29

a museum that is

16:31

totally dedicated to the history

16:32

of African American music. And

16:35

it is smack in the middle of downtown

16:37

Nashville like on whatever

16:39

the strip is where all the Bachelorette parties and

16:41

the cowboy boots are sold,

16:44

live music and all of the things.

16:46

And there is this

16:47

incredible state of the art. You

16:50

know nowadays museums have all

16:52

kinds of interactive exhibits and

16:54

stuff. You know there is a Prince thing

16:57

that happens at the end that like

17:00

is bananas. Anyway if

17:02

you go to Nashville don't just believe

17:05

the country hype. There is a whole lot of black

17:07

music activity in Nashville and

17:09

it is worth a trip. And

17:13

just to take that even a little bit further Auntie

17:15

Kaya, country music is black

17:18

activity. Come on, come on,

17:20

come on. Correct

17:22

the record. I can

17:25

see all the faces when I was talking. Remind

17:28

them. Remind them. I

17:31

have been to Nashville plenty of times. I got to

17:33

do some performance art in Nashville a couple of years ago.

17:35

It was an amazing experience. And

17:37

Nashville is just pregnant with

17:40

so much black history. And

17:43

then I think because of the racial dynamics

17:46

in the music industry we forget

17:48

that country music is black

17:50

music. And if you hear how, if you

17:52

put on I don't care who

17:54

it is. Shania Twain

17:57

the most pop, Garth Brooks the most pop of the country

17:59

music. you hear those inflections

18:02

that are born from black people.

18:05

You know, and we all know the

18:07

history of Elvis and we also

18:10

can even hear there's artists

18:13

like Odetta. I'm

18:15

thinking off the top of my head. Odetta just is really

18:18

coming to me, how Odetta is kind of like based in that

18:20

folk country tradition. And to

18:22

me, this how they're using

18:24

their voices is so reminiscent

18:27

of black people in the runs and

18:29

using the

18:32

voice not just as this operatic thing, but

18:34

as this drum thing and this yodel thing and this

18:36

thing that's hitting, that is so black.

18:38

And I think we just forget about

18:40

those things. So yes,

18:44

there's so much soul music and R&B

18:46

music and rock

18:48

music coming out of Nashville. That's amazing that black people

18:50

are participating in, but also the

18:53

actual country, the actual folk music

18:56

is black folks' music

18:58

and black folks, when we get on top of

19:00

it and we use our stuff, then we might

19:02

think, oh, this sounds like Sly and the Family Stone

19:04

or oh, this sound like Otis Redding, but sitting

19:07

on the dock of the bag with Otis Redding, that's

19:10

a country song to me. That's a folk song to me. And

19:13

it's using a lot of different elements that

19:16

blended it in to make it R&B or make it soul. But

19:19

the core of that is a folk song.

19:21

If you put that up with Dolly Parton's, Gypsy

19:24

Joe and Me, which is one of my favorite Dolly Parton song, which is

19:26

a very sad song to sit on dock of the bag, they're

19:28

using the same balloons,

19:30

devices in order to show their pain

19:33

in their authenticity. And

19:36

yeah, I think it's a new era where

19:38

we start recognizing that those

19:41

Southern traditions are black

19:43

traditions, which are American traditions,

19:46

which makes them our traditions.

19:49

Everything Miles said, I only have

19:51

two words for Nashville. Hot

19:54

chicken.

19:57

Delicious.

19:58

Go to Prince's.

19:59

Nashville, you will not

20:02

be disappointed. But everything

20:05

that all of y'all said, Nashville gives

20:07

me, it

20:08

makes me tingling the same way New

20:10

Orleans does. And I think for all of the reasons

20:12

you all said, it's a black city.

20:15

My news this week, I was really

20:17

trying to go out of my way to find something

20:20

happy in a time where things

20:22

feel like they're not so

20:24

happy. And I came upon this

20:27

organization that

20:29

I am newly in love with called

20:32

the Black Men Flower Project.

20:35

I read about this in People magazine and

20:38

the Black Men Flower Project

20:40

allows men of color, it's a nonprofit,

20:43

and it allows men of color to nominate

20:46

other men of color to

20:48

receive bouquets of flowers

20:50

as a way to improve their mental health,

20:53

as a way to express appreciation,

20:56

as a way to combat toxic masculinity.

20:59

And it was started by a brother who, by all

21:02

accounts, had it all going on, had

21:04

a good job, had a girlfriend, had

21:08

great place to live, everything was going well,

21:10

but he was deeply, deeply depressed.

21:13

He was having suicidal tendencies,

21:15

he was isolated, he felt

21:17

like he didn't have anybody to talk to, and

21:20

reached out to this other brother in Chicago

21:23

who was running a flower business

21:26

and together they conceived of

21:28

this way to address depression

21:31

and isolation and poor mental

21:34

health on

21:37

the part of black men through art, through

21:39

nature, and through community. They

21:42

use black-owned flower shops in three

21:44

United States cities. They are

21:46

currently in Chicago, Illinois, Columbus,

21:49

Ohio, and Santa Fe, New Mexico, and

21:52

they plan to expand their reach nationwide.

21:56

And if you go on the website,

21:58

which is blackmenflower.com,

21:59

Project.org and

22:02

look at recipients. It

22:04

is the most beautiful collage

22:07

of black men holding the flowers,

22:10

the bouquets that they received. And

22:12

like you can just see the smiles

22:15

and the warmth radiating

22:17

from these. We don't generally see

22:19

black men this way. We

22:21

don't generally give men flowers. And

22:28

it just is

22:29

so heartwarming. They have values. They

22:31

talk about unleashing the healing

22:34

power of nature. They talk

22:36

about cultivating joy and positivity,

22:39

building connections and encouraging dialogue,

22:42

empowering self-care and emotional expression

22:45

and fostering a

22:46

lasting impact. And

22:48

I just feel like, you know,

22:51

I needed something uplifting

22:53

this week. I know

22:55

how I feel when I receive

22:58

flowers. And when I don't, when nobody

23:00

buys me flowers, I buy myself flowers

23:02

every Sunday at the Trader Joe's. And

23:05

there's a bouquet in my house at all

23:07

times because flowers make me happy.

23:10

And it just

23:10

made me think,

23:13

you know, why aren't we sending

23:16

our men flowers? I wanna

23:18

read you one quote from

23:20

the website. And it says,

23:22

there's that lingo of, oh, given his flowers,

23:25

he did a great job. But when are there

23:27

physically

23:27

being flowers given to

23:29

men at their funerals? Explains

23:32

WV on a call from his home in New Mexico where

23:34

he's recently taken on a new job. I saw a tech

23:36

talks and discussions on Twitter of

23:38

what the equivalent of flowers

23:39

was for men. It was tools or

23:42

a sexual act. And I was like, why can't

23:44

it just be flowers?

23:45

And so they've operationalized

23:48

this. It's a nonprofit

23:50

organization. So they take donations.

23:53

You can go on the website and nominate

23:55

a man who you think should get flowers

23:58

in any one of those three. cities

24:01

and I'm looking forward to the expansion because I just

24:03

think this is a great idea and the

24:05

slogan is flowers to the people.

24:10

I love this story

24:12

so much you know it's a

24:15

story that most people don't know about but there

24:18

was a time where I used to not receive flowers

24:20

until one Beyonce Knowles Carter

24:22

sent me flowers

24:25

from a New York timepiece and since then I've

24:27

been receiving flowers almost um you

24:29

know at least two times a year it really

24:31

opened the gateway for my own blooming

24:34

um not not

24:36

many of us can say that

24:38

Beyonce Knowles Carter sent us flowers

24:40

so let's just rest in that for a minute

24:43

yes so

24:45

but in in all seriousness

24:47

that I had never received flowers

24:49

before outside of my mother for Valentine's

24:52

Day or something cute and it really did

24:54

something different for me and you know

24:56

what flowers do that is just so

24:59

that is so quick if you're having a bad

25:01

day it dispels any negative

25:03

talk is somebody sending you flowers

25:05

and giving you flowers all these weeds

25:08

and things that are in your head can't be true it

25:10

can't be true anymore and it's it's this really

25:12

beautiful moment where

25:15

you could just see something that kind of dispels all the

25:17

things that are happening in your head and I think that

25:19

because black men have

25:22

such um negative

25:24

things being said and created and

25:27

created about them in the media that

25:29

oh my gosh flowers is a

25:31

brilliant way to kind of dispel these narrative

25:34

destruct constructions

25:36

and yeah that just make me feel so warm

25:38

inside it's it's it's so beautiful

25:41

um the balloon is the black woman

25:43

owned flower shop by me that I go to every week um

25:46

just a plugging them in because they're black women

25:48

owned and beautiful and they have Nina Simone and Rita

25:51

Franklin in there and all types of cool

25:53

stuff but yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna

25:55

give some black men some

25:58

flowers this week

25:59

That's what this inspired me to do. Yes,

26:02

yes. And last thing, I think

26:05

that as black people, sometimes we go and

26:07

lean into exceptionalism or who's

26:09

the best black man who you've

26:12

ever known, who deserves flowers. I'm

26:14

going to give a black man who's doing

26:17

all right. Oh.

26:21

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

26:24

Yeah. We're going to give him the

26:26

flowers. We're going to give him the flowers because it can't

26:28

just be our local Martin

26:30

Luther King incarnate of

26:32

a black man in our neighborhood. It could be the regular

26:34

black man who's Amazon delivery

26:36

or doing whatever you got to do. And

26:39

you know, he just don't bother nobody. You deserve flowers

26:41

too. Y'all

26:45

better go on this website and find y'all some dates because

26:47

these men. Okay. That's

26:51

all. That's where my mind went. Yes. Give them

26:53

some flowers and see who is single. Okay.

26:59

You know, we have talked about the loneliness

27:02

issue that is facing men. We've

27:04

talked about the suicide rate and I think

27:06

about, you know, this is a part of how

27:08

we build community that like we tell people we

27:10

love them. That is like a key part of community building

27:13

and the way we say I love you is not only

27:15

in just saying of our words, but

27:17

it is with our actions and I'll just remind us that

27:20

according to the suicide prevention Resource Center,

27:22

young African-American men commit suicide of more than

27:25

three times the rate of African-American women and

27:27

the suicide rate for black children ages 10 to 19

27:29

has risen 60% over the

27:33

past two decades outpacing any

27:35

other racial or ethnic group. So,

27:38

you know, I say that as like a real, you

27:40

know, we got to figure out how to level in our people

27:43

and what the report also says is that despite

27:45

the rising rates, many black Americans

27:47

are not taking advantage or

27:49

have access to mental health services. So

27:52

the question is like, how do we remind

27:54

people we love them build community around people

27:56

show them that they're not alone, you

27:59

know, and for so many. I mean,

28:01

the idea of being strong and

28:04

da da da da becomes this thing that really

28:06

just kills you in the process and

28:08

people feel like they have to do it alone. So thanks

28:10

for bringing this and I do love sending

28:12

flowers to people. So this just reaffirmed

28:15

my commitment to send some more flowers.

28:18

I had a follow up question for you, DeRay, as a resident

28:20

man. When's

28:24

the last time you met a

28:27

man with a capital M child? And

28:31

now you're being the gem now, so you know it's

28:33

even more so. Be strong,

28:35

man. Right. Do

28:40

you receive, but I guess I'm just wondering you as

28:42

a gay man, because I feel like sometimes we can be

28:44

a little looser with gender roles

28:46

and stuff like that. Do you receive flowers? Do

28:49

you have some warm flower receiving

28:51

moments? Do I? I don't know if I've

28:54

received... I think I've received

28:56

flowers once from like a speaking engagement

28:58

I did or something random. But now I don't

29:00

think I've received flowers, actually.

29:04

Hey,

29:06

I've given a lot of flowers now. I'm a big flower. We gonna fix

29:08

that. We gonna fix that. DM me

29:10

for more information. Oh

29:13

goodness, Lord. And

29:16

that's why I wanted to ask because I think DeRay is one

29:18

of the most courageous and intelligent,

29:20

thoughtful and warm people that I know and men

29:22

that I know. So it's just wild that more

29:25

people in their life aren't just being like, you know

29:27

what, here's some yellow roses because that's what you remind

29:30

me of. That's what you are to me, you know, specifically

29:33

in platonic and friendship ways that are

29:35

not... Absolutely. Hinged

29:38

on romance because we all know how romance

29:40

with men can be, child. No offense. Hey!

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34:31

So as you all know, I've been doing some

34:33

career hopping. I went from

34:35

writer to Instagram

34:37

baddie to talk therapist with DeRay

34:40

and Don. And

34:43

now I am a scientist because

34:45

I read one article from Dave's

34:47

magazine. Just

34:50

a general one. Not even those specifics, whatever you

34:52

need, I'm like water. But

34:55

I read this article in Dave's magazine

34:58

that just piqued my curiosity. In the last

35:00

couple of months, I've been really interested

35:02

in beauty and not just in beauty,

35:04

but how is beauty affecting how I think,

35:07

what I'm doing and how is it maybe

35:09

manipulating me in ways that I don't

35:11

necessarily think of. And this article

35:14

brings up us seeing ourselves so

35:16

much. And I'm actually saying this as

35:19

we're all on Zoom. So we're all looking at

35:21

ourselves and looking at each other. And I'm thinking

35:24

in so much of me being able

35:26

to perform and be able to talk to you all is

35:28

getting out of my body. So

35:30

much of me being able to say the truth or being able

35:32

to be passionate and authentic is about me being

35:35

able to talk out the

35:37

side of my neck and be like, oh, don't make that face

35:40

or really be able to emote. But what happens

35:43

when we're

35:45

so used to engaging with vanity and

35:47

maybe almost like always like self-editing

35:50

ourselves that we're not necessarily able to

35:52

emote and we're also engaging with our face more

35:56

than we should have. I wanna read a couple of quotes

35:58

that were just fascinating to me. from

36:00

this article. Historically,

36:03

our identities were heavily linked with where we lived,

36:05

our families and friends, but as quality of mirrors

36:07

improved and candlelight gave way to gas

36:10

and electricity, visual self-awareness

36:12

was intensified and focus turned inward,

36:15

a shift which has had a significant impact. The

36:17

change in where the self resides is a fundamental

36:20

change as a change from feudalism to capitalism

36:23

or collectivism to individualism and yet

36:25

hardly recognized as Heathrow

36:27

Whittall. It has sneaked up on us and yet

36:29

is totally transformative, meaning

36:32

we don't necessarily think about how

36:34

us not necessarily seeing

36:36

ourselves over time made us think

36:39

of ourselves as community because we're seeing other people spending

36:41

more time and now, 100 years later, we're seeing our

36:43

own images more than we're seeing our communities'

36:45

images, which

36:49

is they're linking to us going

36:51

to individualism just as much as any other

36:54

headier political moment can happen, but it's

36:56

more insidious because TikTok and

36:58

Zoom and Instagram seem harmless. Any

37:01

domination thing that feels harmless, anything

37:03

that's being birthed in domination that feels harmless

37:06

is the most insidious thing because it's not. Another

37:08

quote that I wanted to give is, We become attuned

37:11

to every angle, detail, losing perspective

37:13

without healthy boundaries. It can feed

37:15

an obsession with self-image, she continues,

37:18

occasional self-viewing is normal, but in

37:20

excess, it distorts self-perception. The

37:22

brain can become habituated, altering how

37:24

we see and judge ourselves. Recognizing

37:27

the mind's tendency to self-scrutinize can

37:29

help us shift from harsh criticism to more

37:31

positive self-talk. The impact

37:33

of this kind of self-scrutiny can be seen in the

37:35

phenomenon known as Zoom dysmorphia.

37:40

We come out with a new morphia every

37:42

single day in my field of science, which

37:48

occurred over lockdown when everyone was forced

37:50

to look at their own faces all day while on Zoom. Body

37:53

dysmorphic disorder in women is on

37:56

the rise during the pandemic and worsened with

37:58

more statistics. in this different

38:00

article is the statistics back this up. A

38:02

report by Parliament's Women and Equality

38:05

Committee found that 48% of adults and 66% of children

38:10

feel negatively about their body image

38:12

most of the time. It certainly doesn't help that it's

38:14

not just that we are seeing our own reflections constantly.

38:16

We're also seeing countless beautiful faces. This

38:19

is leading to its own problems in rising

38:21

cosmetic procedures. We see more faces

38:23

than we would ever meant to see. In

38:25

a digital world, saturated with glass skin and

38:28

perfect bodies, we're constantly striving for beauty

38:30

that's ultimately unattainable. In

38:32

the article, it also digs into a lot of children

38:35

and a lot of teens and younger people,

38:37

even in your 20s and

38:39

older, not wanting to go outside

38:41

and not wanting to engage with other people because the

38:43

self image that they created online, there's

38:46

such a gap between what they're presenting

38:48

to the world that they don't wanna experience

38:50

that gap. So you might be experiencing

38:53

what, in my field of science,

38:55

we call pretty privilege online.

38:57

And then that pretty privilege does not happen.

39:00

And because you got pores or

39:02

because everything's not as perfect and that

39:05

could really burst some intense, intense,

39:07

intense feelings. I

39:09

think that we're beginning to see

39:11

what happens to children and now

39:13

adults who have only

39:16

known this. I think that

39:20

to the right point around

39:22

education, around

39:25

consuming people that are not

39:27

necessarily attractive and maybe consuming

39:29

people because they were really smart and brilliant,

39:31

not because they were not really smart and brilliant,

39:34

I think that's changing things. I think we're

39:36

beginning to see what's gonna happen to a generation where this has been a

39:38

problem with. I

39:40

wanted to bring this to this podcast because

39:44

this is a group of people who have

39:46

experienced both. So I wanted to

39:48

see have you experienced that those changes in your

39:50

lives, because you remember before

39:53

we were seeing ourselves as much and afterwards,

39:58

are you more insecure? more

40:02

self-conscious, have you had to speak

40:04

to yourself about these changes? I know

40:06

I have. I've had to really

40:09

get that much more

40:11

intense on my positive so-talk, that much

40:13

more intense on when I get to Zoom,

40:16

like knowing, oh I need a workout before I get on

40:18

this Zoom call with our friends and get ready

40:23

and it can't be about me getting dressed

40:25

and putting concealer on and so I can take a

40:27

selfie, has to be about my health and

40:29

I have to make sure that I'm learned and practiced and

40:31

whatever I'm about to speak about, it can't also be

40:34

a vanity trip too and I also have to be an

40:36

active listener when DeRay is talking and I can't be using

40:39

my Zoom thing to look at my skin and make sure

40:41

I don't got no pores because that's what you do

40:43

because you're in the mirror. So I wonder

40:46

has anybody else felt those insidious

40:50

moments of vanity peeking

40:52

into their brain as well and

40:54

what have you been doing to talk about it?

40:56

If anything it's also okay if you haven't

41:00

thought about it and say, yeah I'm cute and I'm fine

41:02

with

41:06

that. Sometimes you got a whole bunch of co-workers who are

41:09

boring and you don't want to talk and you're like,

41:11

at least I'm cute child and you got to

41:13

escape that way. So it's both and.

41:15

I

41:18

think there is something too

41:20

but not having grown up with

41:22

like a device in my hand,

41:24

right? Like I was telling the story to somebody the other

41:26

day how one of

41:28

my

41:30

best friends Dana in high school came

41:33

up with this thing of dial the weather and

41:36

then when somebody's trying to call you, you click

41:38

over so that your parents don't hear the phone ring because

41:42

you ain't supposed to be on the phone right

41:44

now. I thought dial the weather feels crazy and awful. Do you remember

41:47

when you could dial time? Yes,

41:50

exactly. All I hear

41:53

is the flickstone theme song in my head.

41:59

No. What?

42:04

No. So I

42:06

just feel like,

42:08

I mean, a few things. And

42:11

I think

42:12

it's kind of local culture, demographics,

42:15

your background, who your people are,

42:17

all

42:17

of that, they can kind of lend themselves to

42:20

who you become rooted in. But I

42:22

think for me, growing up in

42:24

DC, growing up in Southeast DC, very,

42:27

very, very Black parents,

42:30

one of which my dad was never impressed by anything,

42:32

particularly what white people had,

42:34

were never impressed by that. So I think,

42:37

you know, even with seeing myself more, I

42:39

think there is just this, like, rootedness in

42:41

what is truly important. I

42:43

know there's some privilege wrapped into

42:46

that, too, looking how I look, meaning

42:48

my skin color, not necessarily how I look. No,

42:50

you fine, too, Diara. Okay,

42:53

no worries. It don't

42:55

hurt. You're brilliant and you're fine. I'll

42:59

take it. But I do, I

43:01

was actually

43:03

having this conversation last week because

43:05

I was on one of my best friend's

43:08

book tours last week. I was

43:10

with her in DC, Houston, and New

43:12

Orleans. And so Cleo,

43:15

who just wrote a book, it came out a couple of weeks ago called

43:17

Remember Love, so it is a plug to

43:19

get the book because it will help your life. But

43:23

Cleo says hello to every single person

43:25

that attends the book tour, directed to San Francisco

43:27

Stop. And there is something that, like, actually

43:30

just for some hours, just

43:33

being around people and talking to people

43:35

without a device. And,

43:38

like, when do we

43:40

even do

43:42

that?

43:43

You know, so much of what we're shaped

43:45

by is what we're seeing on a device.

43:49

It's wild. It's shaping our politics. It's shaping

43:52

who we think we are, you know,

43:54

what that means, what our value is. So

43:57

I do think, I find the science behind this. Dr.

44:00

Johnson, very, very interesting.

44:04

And I think we, you

44:06

know, it's also

44:07

a signal too, right? It's like kind of like

44:09

raising an alarm that these devices

44:12

are

44:14

changing our brains,

44:16

changing our brains. And it is a very,

44:18

very, not

44:19

only dangerous thing, but it's sad.

44:22

It's a sad thing

44:22

from my perspective.

44:26

I also,

44:28

I thought, Miles, the point that

44:30

you highlighted about the

44:33

move from collectivism to individualism

44:36

was really, really profound,

44:38

right? There was no

44:40

you outside of community

44:44

back in the day. And

44:47

between

44:48

seeing more of ourselves and the messages

44:51

that we get around

44:52

rugged individualism and,

44:54

you know, me, me, me and all of that stuff, it's

44:57

interesting how this physical thing,

45:00

mirrors seeing yourself more screens

45:04

actually helps to push you like

45:06

psychologically from a place

45:09

of being with people to a place

45:11

of isolation. We just talked about

45:13

people feeling

45:13

isolated. There's all kinds of

45:16

stuff that says that people

45:17

are lonelier now than they've ever

45:19

been in the history of like the

45:21

world.

45:22

And it's because of things like

45:24

this. I also, the zoom

45:26

dysmorphia, that thing is real.

45:29

I in fact, like, you

45:32

know, I saw that zoom

45:35

dysmorphia led to a surge

45:37

in cosmetic procedures. Like, can

45:39

you believe that? Like in the pandemic,

45:41

everybody is zooming all day every day. And people are

45:43

like, oh, I don't like my nose. I don't like my cheeks. I

45:46

don't like my whatever. That blew me. That

45:48

is super wild. And I just,

45:50

I mean, as you mentioned,

45:52

Miles, it requires like, you know,

45:55

I got to, if it's just a regular

45:57

call, I could be in my room, right?

45:59

We work from home.

45:59

But if I'm on the zoom I gotta put on

46:02

something I don't have to put on you know makeup

46:04

or whatever But I do have to make myself presentable

46:06

and that is a different thing. I've

46:09

been trying really hard to To

46:12

like get away from every

46:14

meeting being a zoom call I

46:16

know what you look like like all we have to do

46:18

is talk we don't have to sit and stare

46:21

at each other It's also really bad for you to just

46:23

sit in a chair all day Right and

46:25

so I can take a call when I'm walking or

46:28

I can take a call when I'm whatever And

46:30

so when my assistant calls to make an

46:32

appointment or I just set up a meeting and

46:35

says well You know can't call

46:37

you or can't people are like what and

46:39

it's so interesting how like in just

46:41

this pandemic You know two years

46:44

or three years. We've totally shifted

46:47

The way we work together and

46:49

now we have to see each other on

46:51

a screen. That is Bizarre.

46:53

I also think about like the way

46:56

my little cousins and them use FaceTime Like

46:59

they FaceTime all the time.

47:01

There is no call There is only

47:03

a FaceTime and they will have

47:05

FaceTime on for like Like

47:08

people just are on FaceTime for

47:10

hours on end doing other

47:12

things But like watching each other and

47:15

I'm driving. I'm like, will you turn that off?

47:17

There's really this thing that this person

47:19

needs to see us doing right now but

47:22

it speaks to the fact that they

47:24

are Acclimated in a completely

47:27

different way to see people all the

47:29

time and I just I'm

47:32

you know That is not the way

47:34

I do business So it's

47:37

gonna be interesting to see how this stuff

47:39

evolves because we're

47:41

not like in tuned enough

47:43

to know that this thing

47:44

that we do all the time is actually making

47:46

us very unhappy and You

47:49

know, I go back

47:51

to

47:52

the flowers thing, right? Go

47:54

for a walk like enjoy

47:56

nature turn off the thing.

47:59

You don't have to look at it

47:59

everybody all the time. You know, it's interesting.

48:02

I hadn't thought about the mirror

48:05

as a political thing until

48:08

this. And that is fascinating

48:10

to me. Cause what you were essentially

48:13

saying is that it has impacted power. Like

48:15

the way people see their own power, their own agency,

48:17

they would be able to move through the world. Like that is a political tool.

48:20

And I hadn't even considered the mirror as

48:23

such. So like that has really pushed me. The

48:26

other thing I'll say is you're so funny to race. I have a

48:28

niece and nephew, Lord, they'll probably be listening

48:30

to this episode. But to Ray called me the

48:32

other day and say, well, my niece was at the

48:34

dinner table and you know, those like phone holders,

48:37

like the, you know, like the thing that whole proxy

48:39

phone up, Selah

48:41

was swiping on the phone holder, but

48:43

there was no phone. So to Ray

48:45

text me, like, to Ray, when

48:47

people say it's an addiction to technology, she was

48:49

like, it's not a joke. She is literally up

48:51

here like doing moves. Is if

48:54

she is in front of a phone, but there

48:56

is no phone on the phone holder. So like, Theresa's gonna

48:58

be a video of Selah. And to raise like,

49:00

Selah, what are you doing? And she's like, I don't know. But

49:02

it is like, she just, she is so

49:04

used to being in front of the phone that

49:07

she literally is playing with it as

49:09

like an imaginary device, even

49:12

in its absence. And

49:14

that just like that. If my sister hadn't

49:16

said it or it showed me the video, I think I would have been

49:19

like, is that, do people really do that? Really

49:21

they do. So that was interesting.

49:23

But back to this idea of the mirror as a political tool. It's

49:25

funny when, you know, I've been working out for a year and my body has

49:27

changed. And one of the things that I did

49:29

at the very beginning is I said, I wouldn't take body

49:32

pictures. Like no shirtless photos if all my body's

49:34

changed. I take a picture every day in the gym and that was mostly

49:36

because I have cute gym clothes. And I

49:38

wanted to like, you know, log and like

49:40

tell myself I went to the gym. Tell my, like, it

49:42

was an accountability thing. But I

49:44

am close to a lot of people who've been fit for a long

49:47

time, whose bodies look amazing.

49:49

And they have such intense body dysmorphia.

49:53

And no matter how abs

49:55

chiseled,

49:56

you know, chest sculpted, legs

49:59

crazy.

49:59

and still it's like never enough.

50:02

And because I knew them, I was like, D'Réa, if you

50:04

go down this path of taking a picture, you

50:07

will compare, like, it'll just be a never-ending

50:09

thing. So I was like, I'm not even doing that. If anything,

50:11

I'm logging the cuteness of the outfit. That is what the

50:13

photos do. And it is

50:16

this interesting thing about like what happens when you

50:18

see yourself, you are necessarily like comparing

50:21

and thinking about, duh duh duh, we grew up in a

50:23

world now where like being on

50:25

display is just a part of the everyday.

50:27

And I am, that my takeaway from this mouse is

50:30

I am still fascinated with

50:32

the politics of self-viewing.

50:35

Like that is really interesting to me. And

50:37

what that means is like, it's impact

50:39

on the way that we think about power. I

50:43

love everything that you gave. And it always

50:45

makes me sad when I think about, I

50:48

just love my body, no matter how perfect

50:50

or imperfect it is and all the things that helps me

50:52

do, you know? And all the things that I get

50:54

to enjoy. And to me, that's it. And

50:57

the one little thing that I wanted to put a bow

51:00

on this conversation, because I just didn't want it to be like negative and like

51:02

technologies ruining everything, a useful

51:05

thing that I came up with after reading this article

51:07

was that us displaying our

51:10

lives and

51:12

our likes and what we like in

51:15

our social groups. The

51:17

thing that it does help us do is look critically.

51:20

And I've actually looked at group

51:22

pictures and looked at me

51:25

and looked at how come I don't, how

51:27

come I'm surrounded by so many derays

51:30

and not enough, another group of people?

51:32

You know, why am I around

51:35

so many people who look just like me

51:37

or who are more masculine

51:39

than me or how come I don't have enough training? It

51:42

almost helps me engage my life in

51:44

a more critical objective lens, which

51:46

I think is useful. And even we see other people get

51:49

put to task for, oh, this group is all

51:52

white people and you just don't know when you're there

51:54

or it doesn't necessarily click to you

51:56

when you're there. And sometimes you need that image

51:59

in order to. look at it critically.

52:01

And I think that's something that we can do is how can

52:03

we look at how can we take this

52:05

individualism and self

52:08

critique so we can be better once we are

52:10

back submerged into the collective. I think that

52:13

is a useful thing that's happening that

52:15

could happen if we use it correctly. So yeah,

52:17

I just wanted to add that instead of just being, you

52:20

know, a down

52:22

scientist like the rest of my community. Shout

52:27

out to Neil Grass. I'm coming for you.

52:31

Hey, you're listening to Pods, Save

52:33

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Hulu.com. How's

53:12

this for spooky season? This November, Virginia

53:14

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a governing trifecta with every seat in the

53:19

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in Ohio, abortion rights are quite literally

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53:26

know what we call it? What do we call it, John? An opportunity.

53:29

Media hype might have turned to 2024 on

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some of your favorite podcasts. But there

53:34

are still elections with massive stakes across

53:36

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53:39

had enough jump scares. Head to Votesaveamerica.com

53:41

slash no off years right now to

53:44

find out how you can get involved.

53:59

are of constitutional law, we are here

54:02

to tell you that now is the time to

54:04

press play on strict scrutiny because we're

54:07

the one, the only one, the one of

54:09

one. So you can join me, Melissa Murray,

54:12

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54:14

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54:16

we unpack what's on the docket for this term and

54:19

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54:21

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54:28

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that's headed our way. You can listen to new

54:32

episodes of

54:32

strict scrutiny each week or for a unit

54:34

you're going to give us.

54:45

This week we welcome author and political theorist Julia

54:47

Hooker to talk about her new book Black Grief,

54:49

White Grief and the Politics of Loss. Now

54:51

death and grief is a part of the human experience,

54:53

but Hooker argues that political loss and experience

54:56

vary differently across racial divides. And

54:59

until this is explicitly addressed,

55:01

it will continue to undermine American democracy.

55:05

It was an interesting framework that she

55:07

presented that we'll talk about. You should get the book, you

55:09

should read the book. You'll love it. Here

55:12

we go. The one and only Julia Hooker. Thank you so much

55:14

for joining us today on PODs Name the People.

55:16

Thank you for having me.

55:19

Now I learned a ton.

55:21

I have a lot to talk to you about, but before we

55:23

talk about the book, can you talk about your

55:26

journey to writing about

55:28

race, to thinking about race critically?

55:31

There are things in the book like I realize

55:34

I know Hannah aren't in one very particular

55:36

way and I was like, I didn't even actually read about this stuff. So our

55:38

day, Alan, I read a couple

55:40

pieces, didn't know she wrote about these. I learned so much

55:43

in the book, but what's your journey then?

55:45

Well that's

55:48

a really interesting question. I

55:51

have been writing

55:53

and thinking about racial

55:55

justice and black political thought throughout

55:57

most of my career.

55:59

And I came

56:02

to think about those questions, I think, the way that a lot

56:04

of us do, just because of

56:06

the things we experience, because of the things

56:08

we see in the world, and trying to go

56:10

back to this tradition of this

56:13

rich and

56:15

incredibly varied

56:18

and insightful tradition of

56:22

Black thinkers who have really wrestled

56:25

with the question of how do we think about racial

56:27

identity, about racial justice. And

56:31

that continues to be

56:33

a central part of my work. And one

56:35

of the things that I always come

56:37

back to as a kind of touchstone. So Black

56:40

Grief, White Grievens is the

56:43

latest in a series of books

56:45

in which I've tried to think about how

56:49

do we make progress towards racial justice,

56:51

what that would look like from

56:54

an academic perspective.

56:55

So early in the book, one of the things that you

56:58

did for me that was really helpful is that you

57:00

define the terms. And

57:02

at every point in the book, when you said

57:04

something, I'm like, oh, I know a definition's coming,

57:07

and let me see where we're going. So the first

57:09

is early in the page nine era,

57:11

where you talk about political loss beyond

57:14

elections and sort of framing,

57:17

like there are a lot of things that are losses, not

57:20

all of them are political, and not all of

57:22

them belong to the project that you are undertaking.

57:25

Can you explain to us how you frame

57:28

political loss as separate from other losses

57:31

that people experience? Yeah, absolutely.

57:32

So, of

57:36

course, we all experience loss. Loss

57:38

is a universal human experience. We

57:41

experience the death of a loved one. We

57:45

lose a job or a promotion.

57:47

But not all of those losses are

57:50

political. And I argue that what

57:52

makes a loss political

57:53

is in part

57:56

whether it's the result of state action

57:58

or inaction. So could this

58:01

have

58:01

done something if let's say there

58:03

is a fire that kills a bunch of people

58:05

and it could have been prevented

58:07

if there were adequate

58:08

regulations in place. Or

58:10

it can be the result of action. Sometimes

58:13

the state does things that, you know, hands

58:15

people. And

58:18

losses also become political

58:20

as a result of people mobilizing

58:23

and get around them. So, you know,

58:25

it's not that, you know, there's

58:27

a loss out there. And

58:31

then there's, and

58:33

it's

58:35

already political. It's rather when people

58:37

say, no, this is something that people need to attend

58:39

to. That makes it political. So, you

58:42

know, something like,

58:42

you know, AIDS activism, right?

58:44

Before all of the work that

58:47

groups like ACT UP and other AIDS groups

58:49

did, people were dismissing

58:51

that pandemic and not

58:53

paying attention

58:54

to their suffering. And it was their activism

58:56

that was like making a claim

58:59

about what the medical establishment needed to do,

59:01

what the

59:02

government needed to do.

59:03

And so that's another way in

59:05

which I talk about how losses become

59:08

political. Boom.

59:10

And the other one, shortly thereafter,

59:12

I mean, this is like in the 17th. You know,

59:15

I was like, goodness, I don't know what I'm talking about. I mean,

59:18

we in the first 20 pages and I got a lot of questions,

59:20

good questions. It's grief

59:22

and grievance, which is central to the entire book.

59:25

But I had never complicated the

59:27

idea that grief and grievance were not

59:29

synonymous. Or like,

59:32

you know, maybe brother, sister, right?

59:35

In a way, can you help us think about it? What

59:37

you write is grief and grievance are both

59:39

responses to loss, but

59:41

there's a significant difference. Can you

59:43

tell us that difference?

59:45

So I really appreciate the

59:48

close reading and the really precise

59:50

questions. So

59:54

grief and grievance are,

59:56

as I say, two responses to loss.

59:58

And they're related, of course.

59:59

But if we think about

1:00:02

grief, what we're thinking about is sorrow, right?

1:00:04

You're mourning the loss, you're feeling

1:00:07

the depth of that loss. When we think about

1:00:10

grievance, what

1:00:12

we're talking about is when

1:00:16

a loss is the result of a harm or

1:00:18

an injustice, then

1:00:20

you move to making

1:00:22

a complaint about it, right? To asking

1:00:26

for help or redress from the state.

1:00:30

So often when we think about

1:00:34

political losses that people have mobilized

1:00:36

around, they often

1:00:38

move from grief to

1:00:40

grievance, right? And

1:00:43

so you

1:00:43

have the loss, you mourn it, but then

1:00:45

you're like, what am I going to do to

1:00:47

try to get justice for

1:00:49

this thing that's happened? And

1:00:51

another important distinction, and this comes

1:00:54

in when I talk about white grievance

1:00:56

in the book is that a loss

1:00:58

doesn't have to be real. It can

1:01:00

be imagined or perceived,

1:01:03

and it's still going to mobilize people.

1:01:07

I love it. We're in the 39s now.

1:01:10

And you talk about the features of white grievance,

1:01:12

and I'll just read the sentence because I thought

1:01:15

it was, she nailed it. They include a

1:01:17

zero-sum view of politics that mobilizes

1:01:19

white victimhood in response to more often

1:01:21

than not anticipatory losses

1:01:24

and token or incremental white gains. And

1:01:26

then you go on and I love the idea

1:01:29

of anticipatory losses. I was like, I got

1:01:31

to use that one. I was like, okay.

1:01:34

But before we talk about the context of white grievance, there's another

1:01:36

part of the book about the fear

1:01:39

of a black emperor. I was like, I

1:01:41

didn't know that Douglas wrote that. I was like,

1:01:43

okay. I'm interested in the way

1:01:45

you contextualize

1:01:48

the anticipatory losses. It's really

1:01:50

interesting to me as a feature

1:01:53

of white grievance. Absolutely.

1:01:55

So I developed

1:01:58

this concept of anticipatory losses. lost

1:02:00

and to describe the way that

1:02:03

white grievance is mobilized in response

1:02:05

to these things that haven't actually happened,

1:02:07

right?

1:02:08

So people often think

1:02:11

about or

1:02:12

cite demographic change

1:02:13

as one of the things that's driving, you

1:02:16

know, racially resentful whites

1:02:18

to mobilize. But

1:02:20

in fact, there's still the dominant group in the country

1:02:22

and they're still dominant politically, economically,

1:02:25

socially. So it's

1:02:27

these claims about a this

1:02:29

future that hasn't happened where they

1:02:31

will be demographically displaced,

1:02:34

but also about

1:02:35

what that feature is going to look like. And

1:02:37

this is where the,

1:02:40

you know, the notion

1:02:42

of the Black Emperor comes in, because

1:02:44

I go back to the

1:02:46

19th century into this moment, you

1:02:48

know,

1:02:48

right after the abolition of slavery,

1:02:51

when

1:02:52

people are trying to think about the consequences

1:02:55

of having

1:02:56

previously enslaved people become

1:02:59

citizens and be able to

1:03:01

vote. And Douglas is mocking

1:03:04

what he calls these fanciful

1:03:07

notions of if we allow Black

1:03:10

people to vote, we're going to have this

1:03:12

Black Emperor with this many-hued

1:03:15

court, and we'll have all these people,

1:03:17

this mixing between

1:03:20

races, and they will, you know,

1:03:22

be dominant and

1:03:25

discriminate against whites.

1:03:27

And I think that's really a really

1:03:29

useful image, because essentially

1:03:32

what happens with these with anticipatory

1:03:35

loss, is that people imagine

1:03:38

that equality equals Black

1:03:40

rule and

1:03:41

Black domination.

1:03:42

If Black people get

1:03:44

to be equal, that means I

1:03:46

am going to somehow be oppressed.

1:03:50

And when has that been the

1:03:51

case, you know? When

1:03:54

have Black people had that kind of power, you know? How

1:03:57

do you, you know, I will say that

1:03:59

as a... as a student, as

1:04:03

somebody who had a lot of cool jobs, I

1:04:06

learned not a thing about reconstruction,

1:04:08

literally. Reconstruction is like a new, it's

1:04:10

a new moment for me. I'm like a new learner that

1:04:13

it happened. To me, it was like slavery,

1:04:15

something, something, something, Jim Crow. The

1:04:17

something, something, something was never filled in, but that's what I learned.

1:04:20

How does that period fit

1:04:23

into the framework that you offer

1:04:25

us about grievance and grief?

1:04:28

So it's absolutely

1:04:31

a key period

1:04:33

because

1:04:33

what reconstruction

1:04:37

perfectly illustrates is that at

1:04:39

every moment when there has been progress

1:04:41

towards racial justice

1:04:43

or towards racial equality

1:04:46

in the history of the United States,

1:04:48

there has been backlash,

1:04:50

right? So reconstruction is this moment

1:04:52

following the Civil War where you

1:04:55

suddenly have black

1:04:57

people able to vote. They're elected

1:05:00

to Congress. They're helping to run

1:05:02

state

1:05:03

governments in

1:05:06

all of

1:05:08

these states in the South. And then

1:05:10

this is untenable to the white majority

1:05:16

and they basically overthrow the reconstruction

1:05:18

era governments and put in place all

1:05:21

the things that we're familiar with from

1:05:23

the civil rights

1:05:25

struggles, which keep black people from being

1:05:27

able to participate in

1:05:29

politics.

1:05:30

And so reconstruction is

1:05:32

a perfect example, right? So of

1:05:35

the way in which

1:05:36

whites have refused to accept

1:05:38

loss.

1:05:39

So

1:05:40

if you think of the abolition

1:05:42

of slavery as

1:05:45

a loss for white people, part

1:05:47

of what happens in reconstruction is

1:05:49

that they refuse to accept that

1:05:52

they have to be equal

1:05:54

or not be able to

1:05:57

dominate white people and they

1:05:59

overthrow.

1:05:59

the policies

1:06:02

that have been put in place to

1:06:03

try to make that possible.

1:06:06

You have a whole section on protest.

1:06:10

And before I ask you about it, I will say

1:06:13

thank you for correctly

1:06:16

situating Ferguson in this moment,

1:06:18

the way you do to open. I don't remember what chapter was

1:06:20

because I don't have that page on my notes, but I read

1:06:23

it. One of

1:06:25

the things that always sent out to me

1:06:27

about having been in the street for those 400 days

1:06:30

is that it was like everyday Black people just showed

1:06:32

up and were like enough. And I

1:06:35

do love that you name Ferguson

1:06:38

as a distinct moment. I'm

1:06:41

interested in the way you talk about, you

1:06:44

sort of problematize the claims

1:06:46

about democratic sacrifice,

1:06:49

the language you use, in protest. Can

1:06:52

you frame that for us?

1:06:53

Yeah,

1:06:55

so Ferguson, like it was for many

1:06:58

people, was an

1:06:58

important moment for me. I

1:07:01

mean, the idea for the book came after

1:07:03

the

1:07:04

protest and thinking

1:07:05

about, like, you know, what could I do

1:07:07

as an academic? And

1:07:09

one of the things that I was struck

1:07:11

by was this hugely

1:07:13

disproportionate and violent response

1:07:16

and the way that even some white elected

1:07:19

officials, but also some black ones, were criticizing

1:07:22

how the protesters were carrying

1:07:25

themselves and conducting

1:07:26

the protest, right? This kind of policing

1:07:28

of people's

1:07:31

grief

1:07:31

and anger. And so

1:07:34

that chapter is really then

1:07:37

about trying to situate that

1:07:38

response to the

1:07:41

Ferguson protesters in

1:07:43

light of the history of Black protest

1:07:45

and saying, I'm looking at

1:07:47

how we have this romanticized

1:07:50

narrative of the civil

1:07:51

rights protest as being

1:07:53

peaceful and totally uncontroversial

1:07:57

in a way. Right?

1:07:59

imagery of the heroic protesters

1:08:02

who were non-violent in the face

1:08:05

of police brutality, there

1:08:07

is the sense that, okay, that happened

1:08:09

and then people sort of magically, you know,

1:08:12

had this moral transformation or

1:08:14

whites had this moral transformation after

1:08:17

they saw that. But there was also this narrative

1:08:19

that emerged, right? That is subsequent

1:08:21

black protests had to follow this

1:08:23

model. It had to be super civil.

1:08:26

It could never be violent.

1:08:28

It can never be angry. It

1:08:30

had to, and it was like, and that

1:08:33

is, of course,

1:08:33

not what was happening in the 1960s, either

1:08:36

in the 1950s. And so

1:08:39

there's this false

1:08:41

narrative of the civil rights movement

1:08:43

that then gets used to say, unless

1:08:46

you

1:08:46

have these, you know,

1:08:48

absolutely heroic black protesters

1:08:51

who are, you know,

1:08:55

not angry, who are

1:08:57

super civil, who

1:09:00

don't make white people uncomfortable,

1:09:02

who don't challenge the status quo, that

1:09:05

that is the only way that their

1:09:08

claims can be heard. And that's

1:09:10

historically

1:09:11

inaccurate and it limits

1:09:12

how we,

1:09:15

limits black politics and the

1:09:17

ability to protest

1:09:19

injustice.

1:09:22

Can you talk about, you're going to do

1:09:24

this better than I can. So I was like, let me see

1:09:27

if I can summarize and I'm going to mess it up. So

1:09:29

I'll just ask you, you know, I read

1:09:31

Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl in college.

1:09:35

I remember when I saw it in the book, I was like, I didn't read

1:09:37

that one. I don't remember all of it, but I read

1:09:39

it. Can you talk about

1:09:41

why it is a central story

1:09:44

in that part of the book? You, there's

1:09:46

a, it is not a small part

1:09:48

of the book, that chapter. Can you talk about

1:09:50

it?

1:09:52

Absolutely. So in chapter

1:09:54

three of Black Grief

1:09:55

White Crevins, I look

1:09:58

at the work of Harriet J.

1:09:59

and IW

1:10:00

Wells. And one of the

1:10:02

things that that chapter is about

1:10:04

is

1:10:06

this idea that, you know,

1:10:09

there is a, there's not only

1:10:10

a cost associated with activism,

1:10:13

but that because

1:10:15

we often expect

1:10:18

marginalized groups who,

1:10:21

to

1:10:22

offer up their suffering

1:10:23

for consumption so that we'll care

1:10:26

about their losses, right? So people

1:10:28

who we don't immediately recognize as

1:10:31

people whose losses we should care about at

1:10:33

the same hall, make their losses

1:10:35

visible. And this is ethically

1:10:38

really difficult and,

1:10:42

you know, and, and carries a lot of risks.

1:10:45

And so part of what I do in that chapter is look

1:10:47

at how, how Jacob's and IW

1:10:49

Wells try to do that, how

1:10:52

they try to both shed

1:10:53

light on in the case of

1:10:55

Jacob's, right, the horrors of slavery.

1:10:58

Well, at the same time, not simply

1:11:00

offering up black pain for

1:11:03

white consumption in the hope of generating

1:11:05

empathy.

1:11:05

So she's really very

1:11:07

careful and very smart

1:11:10

about how she, what

1:11:13

she does show us and what

1:11:15

she does tell us in, in incidents

1:11:17

at the same time that she doesn't shy away from

1:11:20

totally portraying the horrors of slavery.

1:11:22

And it's that trying to balance

1:11:25

those things that I think is so important about,

1:11:28

about that text and about

1:11:31

her work and that of Wells.

1:11:34

A couple of weeks ago, the father

1:11:36

of one of my good friends passed away unexpectedly.

1:11:40

And so I'm at the funeral and I,

1:11:42

and it is as sad as funerals are sad.

1:11:45

And I left being like, I

1:11:47

want to read about the way black people

1:11:49

mourn. Like it is there. I've been to

1:11:51

so many funerals and there is a ritual.

1:11:53

There is a way, there's a way we

1:11:56

celebrate life at the funeral when the casket closes.

1:11:58

Like there is a thing and I'm. I'm like, God, I need

1:12:00

to read something about this. Where are the books? And then I come

1:12:03

to this, I'm like, come on God, God is an on-time

1:12:05

God. And I'd

1:12:07

love for you to talk to us about what you talk about with Black

1:12:09

mourning. Both the idea

1:12:12

that it can be instrumentalized

1:12:15

in ways that are not great, and

1:12:18

the way that you call out, right? The way that

1:12:20

Black women, the mourning of Black women

1:12:23

has served a political purpose,

1:12:27

for better or for worse. And

1:12:29

this idea, and this is a question that you do pose

1:12:31

in the text, of like, is there

1:12:33

a wrong way to more? Like sort of complicating this

1:12:35

idea of is there a right way to mourn, knowing

1:12:38

that loss is real, and it can be sort

1:12:41

of used in a way you don't want it to.

1:12:43

So, teach us, come on, teach,

1:12:45

teach, teach. So, I mean,

1:12:48

I'm not alone

1:12:50

in this, in

1:12:52

terms of, I think there's a lot of people

1:12:55

now who are trying to think about the

1:12:59

really tragic fact, right? That

1:13:01

people had to develop

1:13:03

a facility this morning because

1:13:06

we had to do so much of it. And

1:13:08

that this is both

1:13:10

a resource and

1:13:13

something that has enabled survival, but that

1:13:16

it's also something that is

1:13:18

a loss.

1:13:21

That is a loss that, you know, what

1:13:26

I'm trying to think about in that

1:13:28

chapter is this

1:13:32

idea of what's the

1:13:34

difference between mourning for

1:13:36

ourselves and having

1:13:38

that mourning be instrumentalized

1:13:40

in the service of this, you

1:13:43

know, of racial progress or moving

1:13:45

the country forward. And,

1:13:48

you know,

1:13:48

I write in that chapter about

1:13:52

one of the happy birthday videos that

1:13:54

have been done for victims

1:13:57

of police violence. And I talk

1:13:59

about the one of...

1:13:59

Philando Castile in which

1:14:02

his family

1:14:04

talks about how they're

1:14:06

constantly asked, you

1:14:09

know, what are you going to do now? And

1:14:11

they're like, we're going to grieve. That's

1:14:13

what we're going to do. We're going to grieve. So part of that

1:14:15

chapter is really about trying to think about,

1:14:18

you know, how

1:14:18

do we, how recognizing

1:14:21

the full humanity of black people means

1:14:23

giving them space to grieve and not immediately

1:14:26

asking them to become activists.

1:14:29

But how also activism can

1:14:32

be a way to grieve.

1:14:33

It can be a form of grieving. So I'm really

1:14:36

not trying to tell people how to grieve, but

1:14:38

just asking us to think about,

1:14:41

you know, the enormous burden that

1:14:44

it is

1:14:45

to become an activist in the wake of

1:14:47

a huge loss. And

1:14:49

what kind of obligations that means that we

1:14:52

have, right, towards

1:14:55

folks who are doing that labor rather

1:14:57

than saying, oh, this is what you need

1:14:59

to do to make things better for everyone.

1:15:03

Now in studying the history and the

1:15:05

theory of loss

1:15:08

and the way white people respond and

1:15:10

take progress

1:15:13

back, has

1:15:15

it made you more hopeful, less hopeful?

1:15:18

Are you steady on the road? What's

1:15:20

your prognosis in

1:15:22

terms of our ability to like, to

1:15:26

have a day where we

1:15:28

get structural wins and they last?

1:15:32

Okay.

1:15:34

So this is a tough question. One

1:15:41

of the things that I talk about in

1:15:43

the book is that black

1:15:46

thinkers who

1:15:49

write about loss can't

1:15:51

afford to be nostalgic. And by that I

1:15:53

mean, right, there's no, there's no moment in the past

1:15:56

where we can look back and say, oh, that was the

1:15:58

great moment where.

1:15:59

were great and

1:16:02

that's what we need to get back to. And so they're

1:16:05

not nostalgic and

1:16:11

they're also not naive

1:16:13

in the sense that they're very aware that every time there's

1:16:15

progress

1:16:16

it's

1:16:20

met with backlash. And so

1:16:24

what I say is

1:16:26

that I think if

1:16:29

we draw on this tradition we have no certainty

1:16:32

that those

1:16:36

victories will

1:16:38

come, but we have no

1:16:40

choice but to keep fighting for them. And

1:16:43

I think the other point that I would

1:16:46

say that is

1:16:48

important to me in thinking about U.S. democracy

1:16:51

about what Black people can

1:16:53

do. And part of what I'm also

1:16:57

saying in the book is that actually the biggest

1:16:59

threat to democracy in the U.S. right

1:17:01

now is white

1:17:04

citizens who are mobilized by

1:17:06

grievance and that we need

1:17:09

to actually think about

1:17:11

that problem. Oh,

1:17:16

I love it. Y'all read this book.

1:17:19

Get the book, read it, take notes, use

1:17:21

your post-it notes and get pencils. Don't

1:17:23

write in books with pens. There are

1:17:27

two questions we ask everybody. The first is what's

1:17:29

a piece of advice that you've gotten over the years that stuck with

1:17:31

you?

1:17:35

That's

1:17:38

a very good one. So

1:17:41

one thing that has

1:17:43

helped me make it through my life is

1:17:45

my grandmother used to have this saying, which is

1:17:48

when you have done your best, angels cannot

1:17:50

do better.

1:17:52

And that is about not

1:17:54

being a perfectionist

1:17:57

and realizing also that Sometimes

1:18:00

you have to let go. Maybe this wasn't your best

1:18:02

day, but you get up tomorrow. You try again.

1:18:05

You do better.

1:18:07

And a variation of what I asked

1:18:10

you about your hope as a historian

1:18:12

is that there are a lot of people in this

1:18:14

moment who are like, I read the

1:18:16

book, watched the movie, I

1:18:18

was in the street, I boated,

1:18:21

dustified. I did all the things you told

1:18:23

me to do. And yet

1:18:25

the world still looks like it does when

1:18:27

I started.

1:18:30

What is your message to people whose hope

1:18:33

is challenged in moments like this?

1:18:36

I think about all

1:18:38

the people that I stood next to in 2014. And

1:18:41

it is wild to think that it is almost 10 years. Next

1:18:43

year we'll be remembering

1:18:45

the 10 years since August 2014, which

1:18:48

is wild to think. And

1:18:50

I personally know so many people whose hope is

1:18:53

challenged. What do you tell them?

1:18:57

Oh, this is

1:19:00

a tough one as well. I think first

1:19:02

of all what I would

1:19:03

say is

1:19:06

we are in a deep

1:19:09

moment of fierce backlash.

1:19:12

This is where we are now.

1:19:15

And that is happening

1:19:18

partly even

1:19:20

though it may feel like nothing has changed

1:19:22

because people are responding to

1:19:25

the visibility, to the power

1:19:29

of that resurgent moment of activism

1:19:32

in the movement for Black Lives and

1:19:35

are profoundly threatened by

1:19:38

what the movement has

1:19:40

been trying to achieve. And also

1:19:43

by the other folks who have been

1:19:44

mobilized as well by

1:19:47

the kind of

1:19:47

vision of a more caring society

1:19:53

that I think has been really central

1:19:55

to that work. I

1:20:00

think what I would say is

1:20:03

that, you know,

1:20:05

I'm not one of these people who

1:20:07

thinks it's easy to be hopeful. And

1:20:10

I don't think it's easy to be hopeful right now.

1:20:12

So what I would

1:20:14

say, and

1:20:17

what I'm trying to say in this book

1:20:19

to those folks is,

1:20:21

thank you.

1:20:22

Thank you for the work that you have done. And not

1:20:25

thank you as in, oh, I'm going to honor

1:20:27

your sacrifice and go on with my life, but

1:20:29

rather to say, how can we

1:20:32

not expect

1:20:34

activists to do this labor alone, but

1:20:37

what kind of obligations do we have

1:20:39

to

1:20:39

do that, all of us to

1:20:42

do that work?

1:20:43

If we're really going to honor that work, that

1:20:46

means we all have to take it up. And

1:20:49

so part of what I'm, you

1:20:51

know, I think is important is to

1:20:53

realize that activists are

1:20:58

people,

1:20:58

right? And that

1:21:02

we

1:21:02

often

1:21:04

romanticize democracy

1:21:07

as this thing that empowers people,

1:21:09

right? You go out there, you make your voice heard,

1:21:11

you make change, but democracies

1:21:14

also often involves loss.

1:21:17

And so part of it is trying to think

1:21:19

about, you know, what are the

1:21:21

ways in which we can

1:21:23

redistribute those losses

1:21:25

and that labor more fairly and make

1:21:27

a space where we don't, you know,

1:21:30

we don't ask these kind of heroic,

1:21:32

heroic labor of the

1:21:35

same people over and over again.

1:21:39

Where do people go to stay in touch with what you're

1:21:41

doing? Is it Twitter? Is it Facebook?

1:21:43

Is it LinkedIn? What is it?

1:21:45

So I am on

1:21:48

Twitter at CreoleProf

1:21:51

and I also have a website, JulietHooker.com,

1:21:54

and you can find more about Black Grief, White

1:21:56

Grievance there and upcoming

1:21:58

events that might be in.

1:21:59

sitting near you. That's it. Do

1:22:02

you see what you're tuning into positive people this

1:22:04

week? Tell your friends to check it out

1:22:06

and make sure you rate it wherever you get your podcasts, for

1:22:09

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1:22:11

we'll see you next week. I take the people as a

1:22:13

production of Koolie Media, introduced by AJ

1:22:16

Moultrie, and mixed by Evan Zuck, executive

1:22:19

produced by me, and special thanks to our weekly contributors,

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1:22:24

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