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Save the People is brought to you by

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1:57

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1:59

about... Our next book pick

2:01

from the Blackest Book Club. And then I sit

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down and actually get to talk to the author

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Let's go. Family,

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welcome to another episode of Pod Save

2:29

the People. I am Dr. Ballinger. You

2:31

can find me on Instagram, at drballinger.

2:35

I'm Kaya Henderson. You can find me on

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Twitter, at HendersonKaya. And

2:39

this is Durette at drayy on Twitter.

2:43

So we haven't been together since

2:45

the Grammys happened. So we thought we'd

2:48

do our own Pod Save the People

2:50

style. Grammys recap. I'm

2:53

going to start with Tracy Chapman, because there's

2:56

a Black queer woman on this podcast. Obviously, that's

2:58

what was sending me. How

3:04

ingradable was

3:06

that performance? I actually thought some of the performances,

3:10

Tracy Chapman, Joni Mitchell, I just thought,

3:12

Stevie Wonder, I thought those were all

3:14

so thoughtful and beautiful

3:17

and intentional. There's some other stuff,

3:19

you know, as I'm getting into my 40s now, I can

3:21

take it or leave it. But

3:23

I found those performances to be so wonderful.

3:29

Yeah, I just feel like there was a lot that happened. There

3:31

was a lot around Jay-Z

3:34

getting this honor, but then obviously,

3:36

you know. I'm

3:39

going into how it

3:41

doesn't make sense why Beyonce hasn't won Album of

3:43

the Year. There

3:45

was Taylor Swift snatching her Grammy out of

3:47

Celine Dion's hands. Wait,

3:50

wait, you got to give us a chance to talk about these things.

3:52

You can't just lift all the things, and then

3:54

we don't talk about them. So can

3:56

we re-line that? Can

3:58

we re-line that? Yeah. That or so

4:00

so. For Tracy Chapman. First of

4:03

all, speak up to Leap

4:05

Com for. Creating.

4:07

A moment for her and see

4:09

sit on essays and not only

4:11

to see sing that song bus

4:13

There were like tears in her

4:15

eyes because the people had such

4:17

a tremendous response for her. And

4:19

to see an. Artist get the of

4:21

flowers In real life you know we

4:23

haven't seen Tracy in da knows how

4:25

many years on a whiskey, been doing

4:27

or whatever or whoever is doing her

4:30

skincare routine says that part. Get out

4:32

here when Ally and co you know

4:34

what somebody as at all I saw

4:36

mean that was like when you go

4:38

whale for with man this is how

4:40

good your. That's

4:46

oh, it was just it.

4:48

Is I sleep like it made

4:51

me like single he to see

4:53

her so emotionally moved. By this

4:55

and to see Luke to kind of move

4:57

over and let her do her thing was.

5:00

I thought very. I thought it was really nice.

5:03

It was so cool to see her face

5:05

when you know if you've watched. It was

5:07

like her face assertive in the shadow and

5:09

mean some people knew he was singing and

5:12

people knew somebody was at the of us

5:14

make in mean when the light hits her

5:16

face in it and people start yelling a

5:18

game and you can see or a smile

5:20

like our by my bow is actually really

5:22

course you know after the performance a with

5:24

something like the streams are up eight hundred

5:27

percent. It became the

5:29

number one song n number one music

5:31

video on the I Tunes starts and

5:33

A Treaty Time and debut album took

5:36

the number one spot for albums A

5:38

Rembrandt thirty five years ago she won

5:40

the best new artist at the Making

5:43

a Mine and Grammys an performed the

5:45

song him and when Luke covered it

5:47

is perfect His cover with so Good

5:49

they See wine. She's

5:52

a first black songwriter to win

5:54

at the Country Music Awards for

5:56

songwriting because the sauce or resurfaced.

5:58

in his Cover was number

6:01

two on the Billboard Hot 100 So

6:04

it was cool to see them all together and

6:06

she just looks so happy. You're like, come on

6:08

crazy. You just look happy You know joy and

6:10

JZ said when I get nervous I tell

6:12

the truth and he said the truth

6:14

is some of y'all don't belong in the categories

6:17

and That actually might be

6:19

true. So I was I was with him on that

6:21

and I you know, it's like Beyonce

6:24

has It is shocking to

6:26

me that she has never won an album of the year

6:28

also shocking that Katy Perry has no

6:30

Grammys I'm just throwing that in

6:33

there just as a like, what is the Grammys

6:35

doing to people to raise friends? Frank

6:37

in pain Just

6:40

put it out there Here's

6:44

Here's what I will say Like

6:46

I have mixed feelings about the whole JZ

6:48

thing right on the one hand Like

6:50

I love that he stood up for his wife

6:52

and he used his moment

6:55

to you know, I don't know

6:57

whatever and He

7:00

took his daughter with him. And so that is

7:02

a very nice like Protect

7:06

and defend sort of thing for your

7:08

family. Lovely. I I

7:11

feel like Okay One,

7:14

I mean, maybe she should have won

7:16

a best out. Maybe she shouldn't who

7:18

knows but stop begging I feel like

7:21

all we know we're like Beyonce never

7:23

won Beyonce never won Beyonce at some

7:25

point Let that girl

7:27

go look you just you just

7:29

did a tour that broke the economy,

7:31

right? Who cares if you

7:33

got you got more Grammys than anybody

7:35

else at some point like I want

7:37

us to stop being thirsty for other

7:39

people's validation Beyonce is Unprecedented

7:42

just keep it moving, honey Don't don't go

7:44

to the Grammys if this if you really

7:46

are not messing with them like that It

7:49

just made me so I don't know

7:51

it felt like creepy to me that

7:53

he's like in my wife is never

7:55

one best to the best album, okay,

7:58

I mean maybe Sure,

8:00

I guess I don't know. I just

8:02

I want us to be like,

8:04

thanks Call me again when

8:07

you recognize the real goat and keep it moving or

8:09

I don't know something. This was too much for me

8:12

Here's what it is for me Kai Beyonce

8:14

puts out this culture shifting music

8:16

every time She does

8:18

these concerts where you know, we've seen she

8:20

just eats fruits and berries all day long

8:22

if you got to dance on the stage, you

8:25

know shaking and I read and Taylor

8:28

Swift and you know No

8:30

distance record Taylor Swift and I actually you

8:33

know have respect for her and her artistry

8:35

and she is she's an incredible talent Incredibly

8:37

talented person, but she can stand

8:40

up dancing just there She

8:43

don't got to have costumes and changes and this

8:45

and that I think so I think it's for

8:47

me. I look at like the labor a black

8:49

woman puts into her craft and time

8:52

and time again that You

8:55

do all that and still

8:59

Someone who can do does far less It

9:03

gets the award I think that's my own weird

9:06

warps Problem

9:08

with it, but I to your point though

9:10

I don't but it also doesn't make

9:12

sense that we're waiting for these white institutions to like

9:14

give us our flowers That doesn't make sense that you know,

9:17

you know what it is. You know what it is

9:19

You know what it's gonna be have y'all lived in

9:21

America for a little while Why

9:24

is anybody surprised? And

9:27

there's a whole bunch of other people who I know,

9:29

you know I've seen it all on social media

9:31

Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder and Princeton I don't

9:33

know whoever all these other people who have not

9:35

won best album and so

9:39

you know Should

9:41

she maybe probably? And

9:44

you're right. D'ara. She gets out there. She works

9:47

but I my The

9:50

way I feel about Beyonce is she

9:52

ain't working for them Grammys. She working for

9:54

me That's what she is working for

9:56

the people and I think it

10:00

Now, can I tell you who did get up there and shake

10:02

her booty costume and all and business

10:04

thing was fantastic. Tina Turner baby. I

10:06

was standing up crying. Okay. And

10:09

I'm gonna tell you this, there's gonna be a

10:11

jazz set this year. And

10:20

so I can not, I

10:22

might, I might get my seat the night before

10:24

and just sit and just sleep. She's

10:27

incredible. Absolutely incredible. The

10:30

best thing too about

10:32

that is I remember that was

10:34

her original audition song. She said,

10:36

I'm an engine. Somebody

10:42

ought to know me, but I'm gonna

10:44

introduce myself. I said, I know that's

10:46

right. All

10:49

right. So

10:52

moving from Grammys to measles,

10:55

Dre, you want to share something with the people.

10:59

Y'all and blue mama, measles make the comeback.

11:01

Measles have been eradicated in the U S since the

11:04

year 2000. A

11:06

vaccine can prevent it from, prevent you from

11:08

getting it, but it's spreading in the Northeast.

11:11

So as of January

11:13

of 2024, measles

11:15

cases have been found in Pennsylvania,

11:18

New Jersey, Delaware and DC. Wow.

11:21

The anti-vaxxers are really setting us

11:23

up. I am floored that we

11:25

had legitimately eradicated it. It

11:27

was gone. Gone. What

11:30

happens with measles? Like you, you die, no?

11:33

What happens with measles? Yeah,

11:36

you can die from measles. It's

11:38

one of the most transmissible diseases

11:40

that we know of, which is

11:42

sort of wild, especially

11:44

dangerous for infants and young children.

11:47

And once it's contracted, the disease must

11:49

run its course because there's no treatment.

11:51

So if your body, if your immune

11:54

system is not strong, you really can

11:56

be screwed with cases of

11:58

measles. you have to

12:00

isolate, it's sort of like, you know, you have

12:02

to isolate and get swabbed and all the other

12:04

stuff, but we haven't to deal with it because

12:06

you know, it got eradicated and the

12:09

symptoms are like fatigue, runny nose, coughing,

12:11

fever, stuff like that, but it can

12:13

lead to death and the vaccine is

12:15

93% effective. We eradicated it and the

12:17

anti-vaxxers are really not it.

12:20

So I don't know why that was on my heart this

12:22

morning, but I saw it and I was like, come on.

12:24

You know what it reminds me of tudray and I should,

12:26

we should all find out about this, but Catherine Flowers who

12:28

I adore and then

12:30

so inspired by. So Catherine Flowers is an

12:33

environmentalist. She works primarily in

12:35

Louth County, Alabama. I've talked about Catherine

12:37

before, but Catherine,

12:40

you know, her whole thing is black

12:43

folks living in waste and rural,

12:45

rural South because they can't afford, you know,

12:47

to keep their septic system maintenance, et cetera,

12:50

et cetera. But Catherine said because

12:52

so many folks are

12:56

living in waste that now

12:58

tropical diseases that we didn't

13:00

have for a hundred years are now back

13:02

in the United States. So that's another thing

13:04

we should probably try to dig into it. I can connect

13:06

with Catherine and see like what is

13:08

happening there. And that's what that literally

13:11

is what her work is about, trying to make sure

13:13

that environmental inequity isn't continuing

13:15

to happen throughout the South in particular.

13:17

But that's what there sends me to

13:20

like there, there are other places too where we

13:22

are moving backwards, not necessarily because of

13:24

people's bad behavior, but because of systemic oppression.

13:26

Hey, you're listening to

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people. I'm

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Dan Paschman, host of the Sporkful Food

15:46

Podcast, And I'm excited to tell you

15:48

about our new podcast, Deep Dish with

15:50

Sola & Ham. Sola & Ham are

15:52

chefs, YouTube stars, and a married couple.

15:54

In Each episode of Deep Dish, they

15:57

deep dive into the surprising story behind

15:59

a food. Then see what inspires them

16:01

to cook up. The first episode starts off

16:03

with two dead bodies in a trunk full

16:05

of tamales. Listen to Dps in the sport

16:08

full speed wherever you get your podcasts. Ending

16:18

Ending. Quest.

16:22

pod. Lessen terrorists as we

16:24

move closer. As this the

16:27

spring and summer some and then the

16:29

fall would be upon it on. Thought

16:32

that this is. A. For breakfast to the

16:34

a killer assessed. As.

16:38

We so. Thankfully.

16:42

Wanna. Thankfully we know they're gonna do well.

16:44

so biden and com lobby see one. One

16:48

Nevada. Now. There was another

16:50

that another candidate that actually had

16:52

some trouble in Nevada. On.

16:57

Her name of Nicky's A lot of

16:59

the jokes about it was a joke

17:02

mood surname. Is Nikki Haley and she

17:04

didn't do well. What happened during with

17:06

Nikki Haley. See.

17:09

Last said Mama Bees candidates and

17:11

Ibaka couldn't manage be the dated

17:13

it was a joke about somebody

17:15

a point on twitter as like

17:17

a way to like animal poke

17:19

fun at her. By. Literally

17:22

people could choose a backhoe. none

17:24

of these candidates. and none of

17:26

these candidates. Be her that is

17:28

and you miss a beat everybody.

17:30

But that was both scary because

17:32

the term people are really on

17:34

aims to. but. I

17:36

mean I know our our love for more balanced.

17:38

To say men a be said it is because

17:40

as I feel alive for so. Bad at

17:43

So when I first started

17:45

off as I am day

17:47

I'm the people on nobody.

17:49

Instead he met a man

17:51

says that. that is like that

17:53

something else but then i would

17:56

i read when i read further

17:58

the trump people be And so,

18:00

we basically orchestrated all of their supporters to

18:03

vote none of these candidates in

18:06

order to vote in the next

18:08

primary. So, this primary was of

18:10

no consequence. It

18:14

didn't grant any delegates and whatnot.

18:16

And it was very clear, apparently,

18:18

that Trump was going to take the

18:21

whole entire primary when all

18:23

of the delegates—and so Nikki

18:25

Haley didn't concentrate any efforts

18:27

in Nevada. And the

18:29

Trump people coordinated the effort to

18:32

get—because they literally did not want

18:34

her to have a win anywhere. And

18:37

one, I think it just goes to,

18:39

like, you know, this is

18:41

a don't hate the play, I hate the game

18:44

kind of thing. Like, they coordinated and they handed

18:46

her a rounding defeat, which I think is

18:48

hilarious. So, it

18:50

also made me think, like, dang, Nikki, if

18:53

I'm in Nevada and I'm thinking about voting

18:55

for you, like, you're

18:57

like, yeah, it wasn't worth it. So,

19:00

I don't know what message that sends to

19:02

Nevadans. But,

19:05

hmm, I'm with you, DeRay. If none

19:07

of these candidates was on the ballot,

19:09

none of these candidates might win many

19:12

more elections. Whoever

19:15

even thought to put that as a phrase

19:18

would— And I

19:21

think the other thing that

19:23

I want us to track and that I've been reading a

19:26

great deal of around, too, is just the

19:28

impact of

19:33

Israel and Gaza on Arab Americans. And,

19:37

you know, here at home and all

19:42

of the organizing that's being done now to stop this

19:46

war. I don't know. See,

19:48

Muslims and Palestinians as human beings? I don't

19:50

know. Name the thing. But,

19:53

evidently, there was a meeting that was supposed to

19:55

happen with Kamala Harris this week that

19:58

has been postponed. There's just

20:00

a lot of what I saw

20:02

in the last few days with the news cycle. A

20:04

lot of it was how this

20:08

administration is going to

20:10

engage with the Muslim

20:12

in the Arab American community. So I

20:14

haven't seen anything that is

20:17

a next step from either side necessarily.

20:20

But I think the fact that it

20:22

is making national news and

20:24

regularly in the news cycle, I think,

20:26

is a good thing. Particularly

20:30

when we think about places where there

20:32

is huge constituency,

20:35

like Michigan, for example. So it will

20:37

be interesting to see how both the

20:39

administration and the campaign engage with these

20:42

communities. I

20:45

don't think that engagement this far has

20:47

been successful, which

20:50

makes sense. But I think

20:53

it's the first time that I'm seeing in

20:55

all the years that I've done politics

20:58

and worked on presidential campaigns.

21:00

And I'm seeing this community

21:02

have this type of visibility,

21:06

quite frankly. So I'm super

21:09

interested and excited, actually, to see what comes

21:12

from the fact that they have been getting

21:14

political coverage. Well,

21:17

it's not just the Muslims

21:19

and Arabs. It

21:21

is also young people. That's right. That's

21:23

right, Kyle. And

21:26

young people are critical to

21:30

this election cycle. And

21:32

young people are deeply, deeply dismayed

21:34

at how the administration is

21:36

handling the situation in the

21:39

Middle East. And I don't know if

21:41

you saw there was an article in, I don't know,

21:43

I can't remember if it was the Times or the Post last

21:46

week or so saying 1,000 black

21:49

pastors have gotten together and written

21:51

a letter or have been lobbying,

21:53

have met with the White House

21:56

to push the administration

21:58

to push for a- ceasefire. Now

22:01

they're also calling for a release of hostages

22:03

and for, you know, the end

22:06

of the occupation of the West

22:08

Bank and a bunch of other things. But

22:11

they have sort of

22:13

raised their hand because their parishioners

22:15

are morally outraged at

22:17

the, at

22:20

what's happening to Palestinians. And

22:22

so these pastors have

22:24

gotten together on behalf of their

22:26

congregants to say, this is

22:29

a problem. And, you know,

22:31

young people, black people, black

22:33

people, the most stalwart group that

22:35

the Dems have, right? Muslims

22:38

and Arabs, like, there are all of

22:40

these groups that are going to have

22:42

to figure out what this means to

22:44

them on election day. And

22:47

that's not, that's not good.

22:50

It's not good.

22:53

It's also like, who are y'all listening

22:55

to? Because this is one of those things where, like,

22:58

it's not the, it's

23:00

not the fringe saying, Hey, this doesn't make

23:02

sense. It is people who have

23:05

never checked in the global politics

23:07

in their life or like, okay,

23:09

you can't wipe the country off

23:11

to face it or like that

23:13

is, and, and I don't know,

23:15

you know, I continue to say

23:17

like, I, I don't know, Corinne

23:19

personally, but I lost all respect

23:21

for her when I saw her. I

23:24

know, cause it's about the fifth time she's

23:27

raised this. I, I'm

23:29

still, she stood up there and said those things about

23:31

the, I would rather her just feel like no comment.

23:33

Cause then I could just be like, well, she ain't

23:35

saying nothing. But her

23:37

sort of make it like gaslighting. For people

23:39

who have not heard this before, why don't

23:41

you tell the people what Corinne said? Let

23:44

me go look up the exact quote. Cause I

23:46

want people to get the facts because they were

23:48

crazy. I'm shocked at the administration on this actually.

23:50

They need you. Go back in there. Oh,

23:54

Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh,

23:58

Oh, Oh, Oh, Under

24:01

the blankets. You

24:03

know what though? a few and he did and she

24:05

money to go back and watch it. I think we

24:07

all may be so, but Hillary just did an interview.

24:09

A long interview with Alex Wagner and I'm very curious

24:11

to see. Both ways

24:14

with a said but also how

24:16

see. Whether. A nice until

24:18

the line for the administration's I want to

24:20

go back and and encourage somebody else to

24:23

go back and on that. Oh wow. As

24:25

a. That's the accusations. know if I

24:27

ask you this I just wanted and the

24:29

answers. He did it. You

24:31

know thoughtfully in but away of this is not going

24:34

as man had from voice in it but I think.

24:37

See. Some but see someone that that i go to

24:40

an attitude been right on everything but when it comes

24:42

to like. Understanding from a

24:44

policy perspective. And

24:46

for someone who actually like has worked in

24:48

these regions and I don't know read books

24:50

I think it's helpful. On. To

24:53

get to get a perspective, that

24:55

is it that can be instructive.

24:58

So I don't It's a note from myself and

25:00

I'm gonna go go back in and listen to

25:02

that that interview. And

25:05

then crafters. Okay,

25:14

So we transition into. Black

25:16

His Book Club The are we

25:18

still Black and white male read

25:20

below Sinkers another know ran books.

25:23

Bought a Black People for the black people. Because.

25:26

Of it as readers were book in the

25:28

last year as sparked her spirit. Oh what

25:30

book in the last year or two spear

25:32

one. Happy to go for that hope. This

25:35

isn't a particularly tough year. For me

25:37

I'm identified shared it with with our

25:39

audience but I lost my dad in

25:41

September. Maybe a have and so. I

25:44

think the world with already a challenging

25:46

place to me but I think leaving

25:48

of losing my center made it even

25:50

more challenging. And so

25:53

one of the human. Beings that

25:55

I have leaned on and. I. am

25:57

so glad for this human being is off

25:59

also a thinker, a

26:01

writer, a poet, and a lover,

26:03

Cleo Wade, wrote

26:05

a book called Remember Love. And

26:09

the book really is to help

26:12

you through challenging times,

26:14

right? I've

26:17

been reading it sort of and going back

26:19

to it, both to help me with my

26:21

grief, but also just to remember that I

26:24

am a human being that is

26:27

present and needs to be distinct and needs

26:29

to be cared for before I go out

26:31

into this world and have to deal with all the things

26:33

and have all the things come at me. And

26:36

so I think it's something that

26:39

I encourage all of you to read because it is

26:41

so, it

26:43

just takes you back to you. And

26:48

one of my favorite lines in it

26:52

is I'm not a busy body, I'm a

26:54

body. Because I

26:56

think sometimes I'd be a busy

26:58

body myself. So

27:02

it is, and there's so many beautiful poems

27:05

and anecdotes and Cleo's own stories

27:08

in the book that really help to just

27:11

center you and be meditated in a

27:13

way around things that you're going through and

27:15

how to process things that you're going through, difficulties

27:19

with family, difficulties with friendship,

27:21

difficulties of understanding why

27:24

the world seems like such a dark place. And

27:27

so, yeah, I encourage all of

27:29

you to read it and get it because it's

27:32

about remembering love, the love

27:34

for yourself, the love for community, it

27:38

just to give you a little bit of a brush

27:43

in a sanctuary given the world that we're

27:45

living in. So that's mine. Thank you. I'll

27:51

go next. So, and I

27:53

just, I can't even believe that

27:55

I forgot this, But,

28:00

I tell you what I remembered in a minute. I'm

28:02

So The book that has sparked

28:05

my spirit in the last year

28:07

is called Black Future and the

28:09

thing that I forget is that

28:12

our own the are valid there.

28:14

Isn't one of the concert me. It. As to

28:17

this amazing birth of said

28:19

the or Mls utilities Lazio

28:21

car in. A in a man

28:23

it's but I'm here's what I love

28:25

about this book and is so interesting

28:27

because smiles tipped to that with us

28:29

today picked. This as the book that

28:31

sparked his spirit on but some of

28:34

this book. So it is a series

28:36

of essays. And photos and

28:38

poems, an artist. statements

28:40

and serene them are

28:43

all kinds of things.

28:45

It's an anthology. were

28:47

a zillion different people

28:49

have contributed to this

28:51

com. and It is

28:53

All About Blackness is

28:55

about Julian Justice and.

28:57

Power and Love and an.

29:00

Afro. Futurism and all of this

29:02

And you know, love the A

29:05

Black. I really do and I

29:07

love seeing us in all of

29:09

our different. Dimensions and will be unable to

29:11

pick up this. Book at any point

29:14

and just. Literally like you don't even.

29:16

you don't read it in order, you

29:18

just pick something and you open it

29:20

up. You see a saying like that

29:22

sounds interests and and it takes you

29:24

about five minutes to read it. And

29:26

there's. Something inspiring, Snotty. A Something

29:28

Joy Fox says something resiliency or

29:31

something futuristic. The To had. Not.

29:33

Been thinking about that just puts a pet

29:35

in your black. His staff. And

29:37

silences. but. I

29:40

really do Love is worth

29:42

it does I think if

29:44

you don't have it go

29:47

get it is by Kimberly

29:49

Druids Mm worth them and

29:51

these systems that the on

29:54

about his says it's an

29:56

art type of collective memory

29:58

and exuberant testimony. a luminous

30:00

map to navigate an open

30:02

and disorienting present, an

30:04

infinite geography of possible future.

30:07

I just love it. And

30:10

so get black

30:12

futures if you want a little spark in

30:16

your life. A

30:18

little peppy and black stuff. Yes, D'Ara,

30:21

tell us about your piece. It was,

30:24

of course, about the black

30:26

political future. And I talked a

30:28

lot about, it's when

30:31

Stacey Abrams and Andrew Gillum were running for

30:34

governor. So it was

30:36

about those struggles, but

30:39

also sort of just

30:41

a testimony why we need more black political leaders

30:43

and why we need to be cultivating

30:46

and supporting more black political leaders. And so

30:48

I think even as we fast

30:50

forward, I mean, I think I wrote that in like 2017 or 18

30:55

or something like that. Where

30:59

are we with black political leadership and what does

31:01

that look like? And

31:05

I think Stacey Abrams is

31:08

such an incredible human

31:12

being candidate and just so brilliant in

31:14

so many ways. And so I think

31:17

my disorientation around the fact that Hillary Clinton

31:20

didn't become president and Stacey Abrams didn't become

31:22

governor of Georgia, obviously

31:24

understand the realities of that, but just

31:27

from a very humanist perspective, it just

31:29

still blows my mind. So

31:32

my piece is really just about the fact

31:35

that we have these incredible individuals and

31:38

how we need to lift them up and also

31:40

cultivate and

31:44

nurture more. So I

31:47

don't know. Y'all need to get myself back

31:50

into politics because this is getting dark. Somebody

31:54

Told me that they would run your campaign

31:57

if you got back into politics. I

32:02

know that when I know a guy I know

32:04

I guess I'm door like an autocue be. Sexist.

32:08

Some about is an author that we interviewed on

32:10

the pie but I cannot love of the math.

32:13

O J. Blackstock Doctors say Blackstock May

32:15

the New York Times bestseller list with

32:17

her book Legacy and the thing that

32:19

it sparked my fear was like are

32:21

you know so many times we think

32:23

about these problems of like insurmountable or

32:25

they are bigger than people I mean

32:27

for may mean organizing them like community

32:29

is bigger than my biggest problems. I

32:31

believe that's and then I read this

32:33

but in the Davis stuck with me.

32:35

The I will just never forget is.

32:38

How dare you Did Seven

32:40

ish medical schools for black

32:42

people. And a report

32:45

came out. That compared every medical

32:47

school in a Johns Hopkins long

32:49

time ago, a standard that was

32:51

impossible for the vast majority of

32:53

schools. To me, not because of

32:55

academic excellence, for because of resources

32:58

not that the other schools are

33:00

actually doing anything wrong are not

33:02

teaching people else but if they

33:04

purposely made on Hopkins in my

33:06

hometown about to more the bar

33:08

and use that as a justification

33:10

to close five of the seven

33:12

medical schools. In

33:14

she writes about. What

33:16

a black feature when of looks like

33:19

if we were producing black doctors at

33:21

the rate that we could have he

33:23

is the only to medical school. last

33:25

summer our and Am Hari. And.

33:29

Peta. I knew that there and all about

33:31

one of the schools but I was like out

33:33

a mother had the money into like out an

33:36

i like it was added that a rap on

33:38

him and I'm like no memory of we were

33:40

probably fact is and you've already seen as dad

33:42

so I'm you know. black doctors

33:44

are black community do this we were

33:46

pumping a mile and there was a

33:48

coordinated effort to close the schools that

33:50

his death i'll never forget that and

33:52

when people say it always comes back

33:54

to raise i think it's called the fletcher

33:57

reports to people say everything comes back

33:59

to raise ya They ain't lying.

34:01

But this like really just let a fi- I mean,

34:03

I, my work every day, I see crazy stuff, but

34:06

this was one where I was like, oh,

34:08

we, you know, when people talk about reconstruction and

34:10

all this stuff, it's like we actually had

34:12

a blueprint for doing this right by black

34:14

people. We did. And people

34:17

worked intentionally to undo it. And y'all

34:19

get that book. She did a piece

34:21

in the Washington Post, an

34:24

opinion piece. And,

34:27

and what was striking to me about

34:29

that, of course, all

34:31

of the statistics around healthcare,

34:33

healthcare and racial disparities and

34:35

stuff. But she also

34:37

talked about her mom. Her mom

34:40

was a doctor in

34:42

Brooklyn at King's County Hospital

34:44

and how she and her

34:46

twin sister grew up watching

34:48

this woman like take holistic

34:50

care of her patients, providing

34:53

a level of quality and

34:55

care for black people that,

34:57

you know, is not something that we

34:59

are accustomed to. And, you

35:02

know, representation matters,

35:04

seeing black doctors is not just

35:07

about having black doctors so that

35:09

they provide us with a different level of care.

35:11

But, you know, our

35:13

children have to see it in order

35:16

to be it. And I was just

35:18

so struck by how, you know, and

35:20

her mama was a black mama hustling

35:22

like everybody else, right? Raising

35:24

kids, working, studying, doing all

35:27

the things, keeping a family

35:29

together and all of that

35:31

stuff. And it reminded me

35:33

of how amazing

35:35

black women are and how

35:38

our children need to see

35:40

this to

35:43

know, to be great. And

35:45

so I'm excited about the interview

35:48

that you did, DeRay, and excited

35:50

to hear more from her. She's

35:53

a fresh voice. I think she's

35:55

using her powers in really interesting

35:57

ways. I know. And I

36:01

know how to bring in in in Lansing and

36:03

and B C and she was in. I was

36:05

like. That. You make her

36:07

friend pal. And

36:14

as to see when you're under thank you for

36:16

your words. Really thank you for your ductile shit.

36:19

So. Again I already told

36:22

ya this is my favorite time

36:24

at a year black to split

36:26

class. Thank you again for for

36:28

these inspiring blitz man like to

36:30

read palaces get in taller and

36:33

taller. Ah I'm and will be

36:35

back next week where we will

36:37

be discussing. Black authors that

36:39

we would love to interview on

36:41

the podcast com and the books

36:43

that we'd like to discuss. So

36:45

I'm. Make sure that you

36:48

listen to the podcast, make sure that

36:50

you read the books. Makes her to

36:52

support black authors and tune in next

36:54

week for their next edition of the

36:57

Black As Book Club. Don't

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can do this when you Angie that. We

38:33

welcome physicians, our leader, Dr. Uche Blackstock

38:35

to talk about her new book legacy,

38:37

a black physician reckons with racism and

38:39

medicine. Recently we covered a

38:41

story on black Americans screen out at clinical

38:43

trials for a new Alzheimer's drug. And

38:46

now we talk to an expert. There's

38:49

so many things with regard to race and

38:51

medicine that we've talked about in the podcast,

38:53

but she brings more context to the progress

38:55

made, the work that it lies ahead

38:57

and her own personal story and journey. I learned

38:59

a ton in this interview, your stuff that still

39:01

sticks with me. This was my book

39:03

of the week. Here we go. Dr.

39:05

Blackstock, it is an honor to have you on

39:07

the podcast today. Thank you so

39:10

much for having me. I am such

39:12

a fan of you and the podcast

39:14

and I'm ready to have some, some

39:16

interesting conversation with you. So,

39:19

you know, I have a lot of questions.

39:21

Now let me tell you, you did not

39:23

write a history book, but I learned so

39:25

much about stuff that I just didn't

39:27

even know. So I'm going to get to

39:29

that. But let's start with your

39:31

mom. In

39:33

so many ways, the book is a love

39:35

letter to your mother and your father to,

39:37

you know, he's, he's in the book. But

39:40

I learned so much about your

39:43

mom and in her life and what it

39:45

meant to you and how it

39:47

inspired you to be a doctor and

39:49

also, you know, how the healthcare system

39:52

can treat it or better. Yeah.

39:55

And I Just want to talk about

39:57

why you shaped the book's narrative around.

40:00

Your mother. Wow when I

40:02

know you want to make me cry so.

40:04

On so now. but. Really this

40:06

this book is really to one get

40:08

my mother a boy because i felt

40:10

like and the life that see lead

40:12

as the little. Black girl from

40:15

impoverished Brooklyn. Born to single

40:17

moms, had five siblings. they were raised on

40:19

public assistance. No one really thought that should

40:21

be able to do all the things that

40:23

she did. No one thought that she be

40:25

the first in her family to go to

40:27

college and then go on to medical school

40:29

and Harvard Med. Att. That. Aren't

40:32

you know? So all of them

40:34

are so many barriers. poverty, racism,

40:36

On in her wave was he

40:38

was just a very determined. Little.

40:41

Girl with a lot of work ethic

40:43

and allied of luck as well. As the

40:45

with the also. Know and she. Cared very,

40:47

very deeply a lot about a lot of the issues

40:49

that we. Still seeing today.

40:53

You. Know in India Twenty Twenty Three

40:55

Twenty Twenty Four was the same issues

40:57

actually or even worse in terms of

40:59

health equity, racial help in equities or

41:02

worse now than they were when see

41:04

what's going on and when she was

41:06

in training so that's why that was

41:09

to so important in this at or

41:11

also she's a huge influence on me.

41:13

I we call her the original Doctor

41:16

Blackstock because my twin sister and I

41:18

became positions because of her eyes are

41:20

growing up that all positions where black

41:23

women. Because that's all I was

41:25

exposed to growing up. My mother would

41:27

take us to local black Brooklyn position

41:30

meetings. They would see other blast doctors

41:32

who work in. The community like

41:34

deeply embedded doing the work.

41:37

In messing with Peace and be screening

41:40

for the blood pressure screenings making sure

41:42

people were. Able to take care

41:44

of themselves or have the resources to do

41:46

so connecting them. So this is that the

41:48

environment that I grew up in say when

41:51

people to understand that my mother, while she

41:53

was unique, there were many other people like

41:55

her that care very deeply about the people

41:57

in our community. Because we were were. and

42:00

we are worthy. Boom. Now I

42:02

gotta get my highlights all together in the book so I

42:04

can know where to start. But let's

42:07

start with the Flexner Report. Had

42:09

never heard of it. It

42:13

like shed so much light on. I was

42:15

like, oh, I get how we're here today.

42:18

But can you help us understand why that

42:20

was an important report to include in the

42:22

story you're telling? Yes, I thought

42:24

the Flexner Report was so important to include

42:27

because what I realized is I was never

42:29

taught about the Flexner Report in medical school

42:31

or in my training. I learned about

42:34

it as a practicing physician. So

42:36

here I am trying to figure out why black

42:38

folks were only 5% of all physicians. As

42:41

if like they're internalizing that, as if

42:43

there's something wrong with us. But of

42:45

course, like everything else, it's the system

42:48

working as designed. And that 1910 Flexner

42:51

Report was the report that

42:53

essentially was commissioned by the

42:55

American Medical Association, the largest

42:58

and whitest and oldest organization

43:00

of white physicians and

43:02

Carnegie Mellon University to basically assess

43:05

the standards of all 155 US

43:07

medical schools

43:09

and Canadian medical schools. They held

43:12

all those schools against the standard

43:14

of Johns Hopkins Medical School. But

43:16

by doing so, they

43:19

penalized historically black colleges and

43:21

universities and those medical schools

43:23

associated with them. As a

43:26

result of that, that report, five out

43:28

of seven of the black medical schools

43:30

were forced to close around the turn of

43:32

the century. There's a report that came out

43:35

a few years ago that said

43:37

that if those medical schools had been

43:39

able to remain open, they would have

43:41

trained between 25 and

43:44

35,000 physicians. And

43:46

we know those are probably most likely black

43:48

physicians. But if you can imagine the impact

43:51

that those physicians would have had in our

43:54

communities, it would have been exponential

43:56

one because we also are more

43:58

likely to go back to. Our community them

44:00

work in our communities. In. Of course there

44:03

are some probably less this is out there that

44:05

just like I wanted to see now with that

44:07

money. but so many of us. Are

44:09

there because of what we saw was

44:11

not right in our communities and we

44:13

actually wanted be of service in some

44:15

way. Tie,

44:17

you know and you know in the you

44:19

know in the both. Howard imaginary to me

44:21

isn't my heart. Mary, I'm here. Mary where

44:23

it's Those are the only to buy for

44:25

the So the I have ever heard of.

44:27

Like literally. I just didn't even know that

44:29

there were any that existed. Before

44:32

know him when I read this

44:34

in the book. I'm like eat

44:36

away at Louisiana with some that

44:38

to raise it We and nobody's

44:40

been dramatic, anything or underselling that

44:42

point for since we're we're absolutely.

44:44

Underselling is because I assure you

44:46

spelling ninety nine percent of all

44:48

physicians. Black. White or

44:50

whatever whatever their race or demographic is, they don't.

44:52

Know that that backgrounds the medical schools are

44:55

know about that background. The P: Since coming

44:57

to seek their care Bill Gates know that

44:59

their background. And I think even as

45:01

regular black folks, we need to know

45:03

that history because we need to know

45:05

what we're up again. We need to

45:07

know that when the Scotus decision came

45:10

out a few months ago on race

45:12

conscious arm admissions in higher education, that

45:14

that's going to impact the number of

45:16

black health professionals we see generations to

45:19

come. Prices? That's what this the question.

45:21

The report dead to. Now

45:24

I want to talk about gynecology and

45:26

woods you also talk about in the

45:28

book the before we get there in

45:30

a one of those really interesting about

45:32

your father story. Him as you know

45:34

my work is about the police, prisons

45:36

and jails is that there was an

45:38

instance of police violence and radicalized him.

45:40

And you know the police an average

45:42

killed three people a day. For

45:46

good how slow. The

45:49

trauma policing is to so many people. Stories

45:51

on I'm ready and your father's story and

45:53

the whole moment about his and ask him

45:56

his him a young names and I'm like

45:58

I love my divorce. That

46:00

want to talk to about a d he ever

46:02

talked the all about that part of his life

46:04

in the police found some that's and the protests

46:06

in. Yeah I think for

46:08

him and he knew I read about this

46:10

is idea of being black is very different

46:13

in the United States versus. Growing.

46:15

Up in a black country. So. It

46:17

wasn't until coming to the Us

46:19

at seventeen us and witness seeing.

46:22

Witnessing. You know when he

46:24

says i'm interpersonal structural racism with his

46:27

own eyes that he actually fell, moved

46:29

to do something or just as to

46:31

be impacted by racism And so he

46:34

talks about? Know that yet they see

46:36

you know young person, a teenager who

46:38

was killed by police and then there

46:41

were riots in New York City as

46:43

a result of that really being a

46:45

tantalizing moment from him and think he

46:48

does his own black identity and as

46:50

you alluded to that time airplay. Had

46:53

a domino effect in terms of his

46:55

engagement with the East which is a

46:57

with in a pan African organization that

47:00

with based in Brooklyn in the sixties

47:02

and seventies but with also how he

47:04

named only and me and what making

47:06

sure that we were very very connected

47:09

as much as be could to are

47:11

African ancestry. That we had a very

47:13

strong sense of who we were as black

47:15

people in this country. And

47:20

thought about your learning about the Has to

47:22

Kamikaze. Yes, But they also to

47:24

see someone things that there was something

47:26

else that had read about in terms

47:28

of policing and I think go into

47:30

as much and course when you write

47:32

a book he always have regrets but

47:34

this I m p a bad in

47:36

our communities. Where there is

47:38

increased policing and increase interactions.

47:41

Also noted for police brutality

47:43

with residents that president's actually

47:45

sphere seeking medical attention to

47:48

a developer distrust of medical

47:50

institutions and so there are

47:52

tremendous amount of unmet needs

47:54

in our community. Because of

47:57

that, and that also has a domino

47:59

effect. Yeah, yeah, it

48:01

all you the book reminded me I'm like,

48:03

oh, we say it's all about race. People

48:06

think we're being dramatic. And I'm like, if anything, we

48:08

the drama is not high enough. I

48:10

know. And that's why for this book, I

48:12

want it to be affirming for black folks

48:15

reading it and educational in its own way.

48:17

And for everyone else, I want them to

48:19

be like, Whoa, okay, what do

48:21

I need to do? But

48:23

in terms of you're asking about the

48:25

history of gynecology, and

48:28

the really depraved depraved and horrific history

48:30

of gynecology in this country and how it

48:32

was essentially discovered and

48:35

founded on the bodies of

48:37

enslaved black women, you know,

48:39

it's a history that we didn't really

48:41

know about widely or

48:43

publicly up until like maybe

48:46

2017 2018. So

48:48

J. Marion Sims was, you know,

48:50

he's called the father of modern

48:52

gynecology. He's the person who developed

48:55

what's called the speculum that you

48:57

basically use that almost every gynecology

48:59

appointment today is usually plastic or

49:01

metal. But he also made other

49:04

discoveries, again,

49:06

horrific discoveries on

49:09

the bodies of enslaved black women,

49:13

performing these horrific surgeries that

49:15

were used to find essentially a

49:17

cure for what's called a vesico

49:20

vaginal fistula. It's basically what happens

49:22

during childbirth, essentially connections

49:24

are formed between the

49:26

bladder and the vagina, so that after

49:28

giving childbirth, people end up urinating out

49:31

of their vagina. So it's actually very

49:33

humiliating for people. And, you

49:36

know, they were trying to find a

49:38

way of curing this because there was

49:40

a financial incentive, obviously, because you wanted

49:42

these enslaved black women to continue birthing

49:45

these babies because they had, you know,

49:47

monetary worth, and they wanted to do

49:49

it for white women because they wanted

49:51

to make sure that, you know, they

49:53

could lead a decent life. But

49:56

that history is a history

49:58

that we would never have. and

50:00

hasn't really been out there until a few

50:02

years ago, there was a statue of

50:04

J. Marion Sims across from the

50:06

New York Academy of Medicine for

50:08

decades that

50:10

was taken down thanks to

50:12

the advocacy of Harriet Washington

50:15

and other Black authors.

50:17

But again, we need to know

50:19

the history if we are going to address

50:21

what's happening today in

50:24

terms of racial health inequities, in terms of

50:26

the Black maternal health crisis. Now,

50:29

this is the last question I'll ask, because these are all

50:31

the things that blew my mind, and

50:34

I forgot his name and I can find it,

50:36

but you know it, is that the guy who

50:38

said that we have less lung capacity. Central

50:41

Cartwright. And also thinking about

50:44

how that became so ingrained

50:46

in medicine, essentially saying that

50:49

we are biologically different from

50:51

white people. And as a

50:53

result, we have different capacity

50:56

for holding air in our lung, different

50:58

lung capacity. But as a

51:00

result of that, or kind of

51:02

even suggesting that we are like superhuman,

51:04

but as a result of that, it

51:08

became normalized within medicine

51:11

to have different standards of

51:13

what is considered normal for

51:15

Black patients' lung capacity and

51:17

white patients. And that still

51:19

exists in hospitals today. It's called

51:21

a race correction factor. It's the

51:23

same for kidney function. Kidney

51:26

function also is often underestimated

51:30

in Black patients. And because of

51:32

that, we often will get passed

51:35

over for kidney transplants, or we

51:37

won't get specialty kidney care

51:41

done or initiated earlier. So

51:45

we end up dying. So again, this

51:47

idea that we are biologically

51:49

different. I think also when you talk

51:52

about anarcha, bed C, those women that

51:54

were operated on by J. Marion Sims,

51:57

he was able to do that because of

51:59

dehumanization. of this idea of

52:01

not seeing black people as actual

52:04

human beings. And so we see

52:06

that now, and obviously we still

52:08

see that now and how we're treated in our communities,

52:11

but the humanization is

52:13

deeply rooted historically in the practice of medicine

52:15

in this country. And

52:17

that's why today there's so many of

52:20

us, even me as a black physician, I can go to

52:22

the doctor and feel like I'm

52:24

being ignored and being dismissed. And

52:27

you write about that in the book, your own experiences,

52:30

being a medical professional and still having people

52:32

questioning you when you go to the doctor's,

52:34

you know, the ER medicine is so interesting

52:36

to me because I'm one of those people

52:38

who like only really know it because

52:41

I watched the TV shows, so

52:43

Grey's and ER and all those

52:45

shows. What

52:47

is it like in real life for you?

52:50

And you talk about this a little bit

52:52

in the book, the experiences that either radicalized

52:54

you or completely just shifted the way that

52:56

you understood it, not academic experiences, but

52:59

like being in the hospital with

53:02

people in need, and you are

53:05

the face of the help, of like

53:07

the support of the cure. Yeah,

53:10

I mean, it definitely depended on what environment

53:12

I was in. When

53:14

I was in training, I was in a

53:17

predominantly black patient environment. Probably about

53:19

30% of the health professionals were also

53:21

black, but it was in

53:23

that environment at King's County Hospital in

53:25

Brooklyn, which is a chronically underfunded hospital,

53:28

that I was actually able to see

53:31

or able to connect the dots of

53:34

why my communities were so unhealthy, that

53:36

there was nothing individually wrong

53:38

with us, that there was something

53:40

very much wrong with the structure

53:43

of the communities that we lived in,

53:45

like the people because of inadequate housing,

53:47

because they lived in food deserts, because

53:51

they lived in jobs where they didn't

53:53

have paid family leave or

53:55

health insurance, they weren't able to care for themselves.

53:57

So I was able to connect the dots. about

54:00

this patient I had who had sickle

54:02

cell disease, who's actually at the compilation

54:04

of several patients that I had, but

54:06

sickle cell disease is traditionally taught as

54:09

this is a black disease. We're

54:11

even tested in medical school. What

54:13

are risk factors for sickle cell

54:15

disease? Black is one of them.

54:18

Black is not a risk factor.

54:20

Black is a social

54:22

construct. Yes, geographical ancestry

54:24

tied to certain parts of the world

54:27

can put you at risk for sickle

54:29

cell disease, but because it's been

54:31

racialized as a black disease, it's

54:33

been chronically underfunded. There are one

54:35

or two treatments for sickle cell

54:38

disease. Actually, another one

54:40

just came out within the last

54:42

month involving gene editing, but there

54:45

are hundreds for cystic fibrosis. There

54:47

are hundreds for hemophilia, which are

54:49

other inherited diseases that impact mostly

54:53

white people. But because sickle cell is

54:55

a black disease, we see patients with

54:57

sickle cell disease in the ER so

54:59

often. I got the C

55:01

firsthand because

55:03

the system outside was so dysfunctional, they

55:05

had to come to the ER when

55:08

they were in pain, when they were

55:10

having pain crises or complications of sickle

55:12

cell disease. Because of that, they

55:15

get tagged with, oh, this person is

55:17

drug seeking. This person is looking for

55:19

a pain medication. That's the only reason

55:21

why they are here. I had

55:24

supervising doctors tell me as a resident,

55:26

hey, make sure you check their blood

55:28

work and that they actually do have

55:30

sickle cell because I don't believe them.

55:32

But it became very stigmatizing because they

55:35

look sickle cell patients look like

55:38

us. Why are you treating patients this way?

55:40

Why are

55:43

you not adequately treating this patient's pain?

55:45

And it felt like, oh, because this

55:47

patient is black, you don't even see

55:49

the pain that they're in, or you

55:51

don't even think that they deserve dignified

55:53

care. And this happens everywhere, but I

55:55

didn't really get to see it until I

55:57

was in my residency. that

56:00

really stick with me. And because of that,

56:03

people with sickle cell disease, they end up living

56:05

very short lives. They die in their late

56:07

40s or early 50s. And

56:09

I think, you know, and I think at that end, like that's racism. That's

56:12

what racism does. That

56:16

is, yeah. You know, for

56:18

all of us, there's like a thing that radicalized us and

56:22

reading your story about, what

56:25

is the name, Jordan? Did I make that up?

56:27

Yes, yeah, yeah, that was it. Okay, true. It

56:30

really stuck with me.

56:33

Now, when we think about the solutions,

56:35

like people, I've read a lot about

56:37

the maternal mortality issue

56:40

and as you know in the book,

56:42

if people are questioning Serena Williams and

56:44

Lord knows they'll question anybody. What

56:50

is the structural fix? Can

56:53

people who aren't doctors do anything or

56:55

is it support the doctors? Yes,

56:57

I mean, I think just like you

56:59

already alluded to, we know racism

57:02

is embedded into every single social

57:04

institution, right? It's embedded in a

57:06

criminal legal system, educational system. And

57:09

I think what I wanted

57:11

to make sure people understood is that like

57:13

in New York City, the same communities that

57:15

have the highest maternal mortality rates or the

57:17

highest rates of chronic diseases like

57:20

asthma, those are the

57:22

same neighborhoods that were redlined in the 1930s

57:25

or that have been disinvested

57:28

in or chronically disinvested in

57:30

because of discriminatory practices. And

57:33

so I want people to understand that health is

57:35

not just about individuals making the

57:37

right choices for themselves. That's like

57:39

literally 10% of what health is.

57:42

The other piece of health that everyone needs

57:45

to understand is that yes, it depends

57:47

on how safe your community is. Like,

57:49

can you go out and take a walk? Do

57:51

you have green space in your community? What's

57:55

the educational quality like, right? Are

57:57

you able to get a decent

57:59

quality education? Are you able to

58:01

find gay full employment? You know, so

58:03

it's like, we have to like

58:05

look at all of those that we call

58:07

the social determinants of health and how racism

58:09

impacts them to think about solutions. So that's

58:11

why I always say it's not just about

58:14

making sure we educate health professionals

58:16

to see black people as human

58:18

beings, that is only one piece of

58:20

it. What happens in the hospitals

58:22

is only one piece of that. And I

58:24

do think there need to be processes and

58:27

procedures in place to ensure that we

58:29

are getting the best quality care,

58:31

that discriminatory care is not happening

58:33

to us because that often

58:35

happens. But also what is life

58:38

like outside? We know that birthing

58:40

people are more likely to have

58:42

preterm deliveries just also because of the stress

58:45

of dealing with everyday racism. So

58:47

I meet people like white folks

58:50

on an individual level, non-black

58:52

people of color on an individual

58:54

level to think about again, their

58:56

own internal biases, educating their family

58:58

and friends, thinking about how racism

59:01

is showing up in their workplaces, thinking

59:04

about these choice points, these equity choice points

59:06

that we make all the time in whatever

59:08

role we're in about, oh,

59:10

are you gonna promote the same person you've

59:12

already promoted? Or are you gonna go with

59:15

someone who doesn't quite fit, right?

59:18

Or what vendor are you going to use in

59:20

the role that you have at your job? So

59:22

I always think about like, you know, what are

59:24

these choices that we've been making that or that

59:26

people in power have been making that get repeated

59:28

all over and over again? So

59:30

again, policy around health, policy

59:32

around education, around mass incarceration,

59:34

all of it is connected.

59:37

And it's important to really do,

59:41

even if it's advocacy on a local

59:43

level in your community on these issues,

59:46

because if all of it is connected to how healthy we

59:48

are. This

59:51

is such a random question, but since I have

59:53

you, I was like, let me ask, because you

59:56

and your sister both are doctors, do

59:59

you ever get the doctors? together? Like do you get

1:00:01

to like do doctor things together? I think about

1:00:03

my sister, me and my sister both were medical

1:00:05

math teachers and she's a

1:00:07

principal now and I worked inside of the central office

1:00:10

and I'll never forget the moments where I used to

1:00:12

call her be like, Trey, I don't know how to,

1:00:14

I'm like you know I need to teach this and

1:00:16

can you help me figure out the best way to

1:00:18

do it. Do you ever get to have doctor moments

1:00:20

with your sister? We do. I mean

1:00:22

she does primary care and focuses

1:00:25

on HIV and I

1:00:27

do emergency medicine so sometimes like she'll

1:00:29

be like girl someone came in and

1:00:31

XYZ happened I didn't even know how

1:00:33

to deal with it so I feel

1:00:35

like I can I can help her

1:00:37

and vice versa. I'll ask her wait

1:00:39

tell me again mammograms how often and

1:00:41

when like preventive care so I

1:00:43

definitely think we see each other as a

1:00:45

resource and we're grateful. I love

1:00:49

that. That must be so it's like you know

1:00:51

sibling stuff is so fun sometimes or you're like

1:00:53

okay I wanted to know too you know there's

1:00:56

a lot in the book what

1:00:58

was the most surprising thing to you when

1:01:00

you were writing it was it the writing

1:01:02

about uncovering your mom's

1:01:05

story or sort of writing it this

1:01:07

way were there pieces about the history

1:01:09

of medicine that were the most surprising

1:01:11

pieces like what was the what was

1:01:13

the most unearthed or like the hardest

1:01:16

or the most complicated that they came

1:01:18

up. So I think that's the hardest

1:01:20

but I don't know hardest in a

1:01:22

negative way but I think obviously telling

1:01:25

my family story and talking

1:01:27

about my mother and literally

1:01:30

like reflecting on how hard her life

1:01:32

was and the fact that she died from

1:01:34

leukemia when we were only when she was 47

1:01:37

we were only 19 years old I felt like

1:01:39

it really hit me that she was robbed because also

1:01:41

I'm now 47 or 47 years

1:01:45

old so like you know I'm like wow

1:01:47

there was so much more of my mother's

1:01:49

life that she could have lived and

1:01:52

I feel like it's really my

1:01:54

sister and my responsibility to make

1:01:56

sure that we are doing the work

1:01:58

so that her legacy continues. And

1:02:01

what is your advice to young people who

1:02:03

want to go into medicine or

1:02:05

people sort of looking for like an

1:02:07

encouraging word about the medical profession? Yeah.

1:02:10

So what I will say is that

1:02:12

there are so many different ways we

1:02:14

can help our community. I think that

1:02:16

sometimes like people think being a physician

1:02:18

in healthcare is the only way. There

1:02:21

are a lot of really wonderful roles

1:02:23

within healthcare. There is not only physicians,

1:02:25

but medical assistants, physician assistants, nurse practitioners,

1:02:27

occupational therapists, physical therapists. Like there are

1:02:29

so many ways that we can contribute

1:02:31

to the health of our community. We

1:02:33

can even go to a public health

1:02:36

school. All that to say is that

1:02:38

there is such a need to have us there

1:02:40

in our communities, working with our

1:02:43

folks. Like I can't even say

1:02:45

how important that is. And

1:02:47

because of gatekeeping and policies like the

1:02:50

ones we've talked about, you know, they don't

1:02:53

allow us in, but you know, just know

1:02:55

that there are people like me, folks like

1:02:57

my sister that are out there advocating for

1:02:59

them and our presence is so, so incredibly

1:03:02

important to our patients. Here

1:03:04

is two questions that we ask

1:03:07

everybody. The first

1:03:09

is what's the piece of advice

1:03:11

that you've gotten over the years that stuck with you? Okay.

1:03:14

So my father always told me starting

1:03:16

from when I was very young that,

1:03:18

you know, simple but be

1:03:20

nice to people. He said, you never know

1:03:23

who you're interacting with and it really

1:03:25

doesn't matter who they are, what their role is. It's

1:03:27

just that you always want to put your best foot

1:03:29

forward. And I feel like that's what I've always done.

1:03:35

And then the second is what do you say to people who's

1:03:38

hope is challenged in moments

1:03:40

like this? People who feel

1:03:42

like they've done all the things, right? They

1:03:44

read your book, they read my book, they

1:03:47

emailed, they testified, they stood

1:03:49

in the street, like they did everything and

1:03:51

the world didn't change in the way they

1:03:53

wanted it to. What do you say to

1:03:55

those people? Well, when I say I

1:03:57

see you, I feel you, I have been

1:03:59

there. at times. I think

1:04:02

what I've recognized about my own journey, and it's a

1:04:04

journey that I had not expected, you know,

1:04:06

I have my own consulting firm now,

1:04:08

I do medical contributor work, now I'm

1:04:10

an author. These are things I never

1:04:12

thought I would do ever just because

1:04:14

I didn't think these opportunities were available to

1:04:16

me. But what I would say is, is

1:04:18

that people see you, the people who need

1:04:20

to see you, they see you. The people

1:04:22

who need to be inspired by you, they're

1:04:24

inspired by you. And the fact is, is

1:04:26

that even though we may not be able

1:04:29

to see perceptible change within our short

1:04:31

time or within a lifetime, that we just

1:04:33

have to keep going because like, our

1:04:35

ancestors kept going. We have to keep

1:04:37

going because we actually have no other

1:04:39

choice but to keep going, but also

1:04:42

to take care of ourselves and rest, recover,

1:04:44

recuperate in the process as well. And do

1:04:48

you have a, do you have a community of

1:04:50

black doctors like your mom did? I do,

1:04:53

I have like all my girls from

1:04:55

medical school and I have my friends

1:04:58

from residency and folks that I worked

1:05:00

with. So I definitely have a

1:05:02

group of people that I know I can

1:05:04

always go to in medicine who get me

1:05:07

and understand what it's like to

1:05:09

be a black health professional, a black

1:05:11

physician in medicine in this

1:05:13

country. What do you want to

1:05:15

do next in your, in your own? I'm so

1:05:17

interested in, I feel like I know so much

1:05:19

about your mother and your

1:05:21

dad and I'm interested

1:05:24

in like what you, what's your, you

1:05:26

wrote a book and the book is great.

1:05:28

Thank you. I'd like to, I

1:05:31

think ultimately policy is what's going to

1:05:33

have the biggest impact on the health

1:05:35

of our communities, whether it's local, state

1:05:37

or federal. And so I would love

1:05:40

to have more influence with policymakers

1:05:42

who are focusing on health

1:05:44

equity, just to make those

1:05:46

connections, to be an advocate,

1:05:49

to make sure that we're impacting our

1:05:51

communities on a larger level and not

1:05:53

just an individual level. So as a

1:05:55

physician, that's the individual impact, you know,

1:05:58

one-on-one. But now I feel like such

1:06:00

a need to really work on

1:06:02

policy that impacts just communities and

1:06:04

not just individuals. And

1:06:07

where do people go to stay in touch with

1:06:09

you? Is it Twitter? Is it Facebook? Is it

1:06:12

Instagram? How do people stay in touch?

1:06:14

Yeah, so I am on Twitter

1:06:16

at uche, UCHE underscore Blackstock. I'm

1:06:18

also on Instagram at uche BlackstockMD.

1:06:20

And then I'm also on LinkedIn

1:06:22

at uche Blackstock. So you can

1:06:24

find me in all those

1:06:26

social media channels. Well,

1:06:30

we consider you a friend of the pod and can we? So,

1:06:33

I had so much fun. Thank you for having

1:06:35

me. Tell

1:06:41

your friends to check it out and make sure you read

1:06:43

it wherever you get your podcasts. Or if it's out of

1:06:45

podcasts or somewhere else. And we'll see you next week.

1:06:55

I'm Dan Pashman, host of the Sporkful Food

1:06:57

Podcast. And I'm excited to tell you about our

1:07:15

new podcast, Deep Dish with Sola and

1:07:17

Ham. Sola and Ham are chefs, YouTube

1:07:19

stars, and a married couple. In each

1:07:21

episode of Deep Dish, they deep dive

1:07:23

into the surprising story behind a food,

1:07:25

then see what it inspires them to

1:07:27

cook up. The first episode starts off

1:07:29

with two dead bodies and a trunk

1:07:31

full of tamales. Listen to Deep

1:07:33

Dish in the Sporkful's feed wherever you get

1:07:35

your podcasts. America's

1:07:51

Navy, forged by the sea.