0:00

Look around. You can find cars like these

0:02

on AutoTrader. New cars, used

0:04

cars, electric cars, maybe even

0:06

flying cars. Okay,

0:09

no flying cars, but as soon as they get invented,

0:11

they'll be on AutoTrader. Just you wait.

0:14

AutoTrader.

0:16

Welcome back to our studio, where

0:18

we have a special guest with us today, Toucan

0:20

Sam from Froot Loops. Toucan

0:22

Sam, welcome. It's my pleasure

0:25

to be here. Oh, and, um, it's

0:27

Froot Loops, just so you know.

0:29

Uh, fruit. Fruit.

0:32

Yeah, fruit. No, it's

0:35

Froot Loops. The

0:37

same way you say studio.

0:41

That's not how we say it.

0:46

Six decades ago, doctors

0:48

achieved the impossible when they successfully replaced a human

0:50

kidney with a machine. But since then, the

0:53

story has turned into one of the nation's worst

0:55

healthcare catastrophes. On last

0:57

week's America Dissected, host Abdul El-Sayed

1:00

sits down with Tom Mueller on his book, How

1:02

to Make a Killing, where they talk about the corporate

1:05

corruption of dialysis. Listen

1:07

to this convo and more only on America Dissected.

1:09

New episodes drop every Tuesday.

1:15

Hey,

1:15

this is DeRay. I'm going to be talking to people on this episode.

1:18

It's me, Miles and Don, talking about all the news

1:20

that went underreported with regard to race, justice and equity.

1:23

The news that you should have heard about, but probably

1:25

didn't. And then I sit down and talk with the

1:27

tactical lead for the Stop Cop City Coalition,

1:30

Mary Hooks. We talk about the coalition's strategy

1:32

and mission and the city's efforts to silence

1:35

the activists involved with trying to stop

1:37

Cop City. I learned a lot. You'll

1:39

learn a lot. Important conversation. Here we go.

1:48

Ladies and gentlemen and thems,

1:51

you are listening to another episode of Pods

1:53

Say the People. I am Mildy Johnson. You can

1:55

find me at PharoahRapture on Twitter, Instagram

1:58

and TikTok for...

1:59

a limited time. Miles, I didn't

2:02

know you were on TikTok. Okay,

2:04

trying new things. I'm

2:07

Don Callaway at D Callaway on Instagram

2:09

and at DCSTL

2:12

again on Twitter or X

2:14

forgive me. This

2:16

is Duret at D-R-A-Y on Twitter. Okay,

2:20

so we have a couple of things

2:22

that we want to get down and I'm super

2:25

excited about hearing something

2:27

about sports. What's enticing

2:29

me is the fact that Duret promises that

2:31

white people are getting mad, which I'm like, okay, let's go.

2:34

So Dion Sanders, whoever

2:36

that is, apparently they're important. They

2:41

do something with balls and coaches and

2:43

we're gonna go ahead and shift the

2:46

news to our sportscaster

2:48

for the day. All right,

2:51

Dion Sanders, aka Coach Prime,

2:54

is certainly the biggest story in college football,

2:57

if not all of American sports. He

2:59

has, first of all,

3:01

it's important to put Coach Prime

3:03

in context. During my

3:05

growing up years, he was the biggest athlete

3:08

on the planet, not named Michael Jordan. He was

3:10

an all-star high level football

3:12

player, one of the best, probably the best to ever play his position

3:15

and achieved substantial success in Major

3:17

League Baseball as well and did it

3:19

all while releasing rap albums and

3:21

just had this huge flare larger than life

3:24

personality. So Dion Sanders is

3:26

an absolute legend of a human being. Turn to

3:28

coaching college football four years ago and

3:30

coached at an HBCU, Jackson State, and

3:32

has now taken his talents to Boulder,

3:34

Colorado as head coach of the

3:37

Colorado Buffaloes. This is the first

3:39

time that an HBCU coach has

3:41

gone to head a Power Five organization.

3:44

He took a bunch of his players with him. Important

3:46

to note that his two sons are the

3:48

leaders of the team. At

3:51

quarterback, his son Shadur and a safety. And

3:55

they're not dominating, but they're pulling out these really, really

3:57

exciting wins in this context.

4:00

and they have just blackified the program

4:02

to just such a gorgeous degree. Lil Wayne led

4:04

the field, led the team out on the field. Prime

4:07

is one of the biggest, just most charismatic figures

4:09

in black America. And he's very,

4:11

very like not quiet about

4:14

this notion of, hey, listen, I'm a confident

4:16

black man, I'm talking to my stuff, I'm swagging

4:18

my swag, and these young men are respectful

4:20

and prepared, and we're winning. And

4:23

it's just remarkable to watch this

4:26

takeover from this non-conventional

4:28

character who is breaking into these spaces that

4:30

have historically been fueled

4:33

almost exclusively by white men fueled

4:35

by black labor. What I love is

4:38

when the coach made that little slick comment about

4:41

him wearing sunglasses, and

4:44

then at the latest game,

4:46

one of the ESPN announcers was like, this looks like

4:48

the BET Awards, because Offset

4:50

was there, Lil Wayne was

4:52

there, wasn't

4:55

the rock there, it was like, everybody

4:58

showed up, and it's like, y'all just cannot

5:00

imagine what it's like to have this black

5:02

man in Colorado of all places.

5:04

The fans rushed the

5:06

field afterwards. People are watching this

5:08

college football game in the middle of the night, and

5:11

Deion Sanders, Miles, you gotta love it. Coach

5:14

and the other team made some wise

5:16

comment about why you wearing your shades, something like that. Deion

5:19

Sanders passed out shades to every

5:21

single player. I love that. I

5:24

love it. It is remarkable, and you

5:27

gotta remember that the

5:29

other coach is black, right? So

5:32

the white supremacy, the need to

5:35

jump for the jugular of a confident black

5:37

man is not exclusively located

5:39

in white folks. As a matter of fact, sometimes

5:42

they use our own to be that attack dog,

5:44

and I'm just so disappointed in that, brother. Like, hey,

5:46

man, first of all, you ain't no need to get the

5:48

best team or the hottest team even more

5:51

motivated to kick y'all's boys' butts, but

5:53

on the other tip, man, you know, just

5:56

don't go out like that. Don't go out like a coon,

5:58

and it was so disappointing. I'm trying to just, a

6:00

black coach do that to our brother.

6:03

But hey, there'll always be one who they'll

6:05

be able to use to publicly snipe the

6:07

best of ours. I love

6:10

the don't go off like a cool line

6:13

cause that is my favorite pejorative to wield

6:15

towards black people. But

6:17

that's so, although

6:20

I do not know a lot about sports, what I do know

6:22

a lot about is when black

6:25

people who are just deciding to totally

6:27

negate the respectability politics and just

6:30

not do that, when they infiltrate

6:33

those spaces that are supposed

6:35

to be elite, supposed to be rich, supposed to be

6:37

white, when black people experience people who

6:39

are saying, no, I'm gonna get the same type of money, the

6:41

same type of fame, I'm gonna do the same thing. And I'm

6:44

also gonna do it in my way. The

6:46

gasp of Jack and

6:48

Jill kids around the nation, you

6:52

can hear it because that's just

6:54

not how it's supposed to work. You're supposed to be able to do it like

6:56

this and then you get the money. And how come

6:58

that person gets it? So I think we see that with

7:00

Muhammad Ali, Shaqari today,

7:04

Flojo, like I think that there's so many examples of

7:06

people who disrupt that and

7:09

still, get

7:11

the more respectable shades

7:14

of black upset. I

7:16

mean, this is my favorite topic and I know we have

7:18

actual articles and news to get to, but my favorite

7:20

topic in the world is upending black

7:23

people who are further too far

7:25

into notions of white respectability. And

7:27

let's be clear, we all fall subject to it

7:30

in some aspect of our lives every day.

7:32

But yes, disrupting the comfort of

7:35

Negroes who are still attached

7:37

to notions of white respectability is

7:39

my favorite past time if I do say so myself.

7:42

I have to say this about Dion, I like Dion, sign

7:45

me up. I don't like that Dion ranks

7:47

his children very regularly

7:49

on Instagram. Ranks

7:52

them in what way? He's

7:54

like, people lie and say that you love all the kids and

7:57

I'm just saying that's not true. So he literally has a ranking that

7:59

he. puts out being like, these are my kids

8:01

and here's who's number one, two, three, and four. Does

8:04

it change? Yeah. That's

8:06

fair. That is gates. I like that.

8:10

Do better. That's real life. Listen,

8:12

and you got, you don't like it because you don't have

8:14

kids, DeRay. That's

8:18

real life. Stop it. That's

8:21

real life. I love that. So we just

8:23

got news about the two models who were found

8:25

dead in LA and we wanted to speak

8:28

about that situation. The family just gave a press

8:30

conference. DeRay has a little bit more information

8:32

about what's going on. Yeah.

8:35

So in LA, there've been two separate instances

8:37

of black women in downtown LA

8:40

who were found dead and the

8:43

latest victim, the family

8:45

is being pretty clear that

8:47

like this looks like there is

8:49

a predator or a zero kilo loose

8:51

in LA. One of the women

8:55

was a friend of one of my friends and

8:58

he posted about her this morning and being like,

9:00

you know, rest in peace. And I was like, whoa. And

9:02

he was like, yeah, I know her. Like she is, she's

9:06

my friend and, and that is just

9:08

scary. And I bring this up because let's be

9:10

clear. There have been times

9:13

before and not too, not

9:16

too distant history where black women have gone

9:18

missing and the police have sort of been like,

9:20

Oh, you know, blah, blah, blah,

9:22

not an epidemic, not a serial killer, not

9:24

something. And it turns out that it was. So I hope

9:27

that there's like real attention

9:29

being placed on this. And this is pretty

9:31

scary. Yeah, it's extremely

9:34

scary. And, um, you

9:36

know, these were legit models. I mean, this wasn't,

9:39

um, you know, folks who had just set

9:41

up an IG account, right? And these were legit

9:44

folks who did this for a profession, had real

9:46

professional credits, um, at

9:48

least in the case of the second woman

9:50

who I'm reading about. It, um,

9:53

this is, this is frightening and it, it

9:55

is very clear that there appears to be a,

9:57

a male. modus

10:00

operandi at practice here. Um,

10:02

but I'll tell you what, as opposed

10:05

to other cities and in different times,

10:08

I would have a lot more faith with Karen

10:10

Bass having some interaction and oversight

10:12

with the police department, uh, first black woman

10:14

mayor of LA. Um, and I'm glad that she's

10:17

out there, uh, to be able to police

10:19

the police at a time like this, just to make sure

10:21

that the proper, um, attention is being paid.

10:25

Um, and just to say that names real quick, uh,

10:27

it's Nicole and Nicky Coates who

10:29

is 32 and Melissa Mooney who is 31. And

10:33

of course

10:36

we give all condolences to the family. I

10:38

am, of course, everybody is, but I'm really

10:40

interested in the motivation

10:43

behind these crimes because the worst

10:45

part of me, because the identity of the, of,

10:47

of the women are so similar is that

10:49

there is this kind of racial,

10:53

just undergirding of like why these things were

10:55

are happening. And I feel like we've since

10:58

the podcast has since I've joined the podcast, we've discussed

11:00

so often. Tragic

11:03

circumstances and the motivations behind them

11:05

and how they, and, and, and kind

11:07

of them all leading back to these very

11:11

specific racialized gender

11:13

reasons why these moments of violence are happening.

11:16

And I hope that stop what's going on

11:18

in LA, but also I feel

11:20

like I'm always crying to

11:22

the moon about there's

11:25

things happening on the internet. That's not just

11:27

the geeks in the basements that are motivating people

11:29

to hurt other people. Um, it's happening

11:32

in elite circles too. And

11:34

this feels like something that

11:36

has a, a gender and racial

11:39

motivation as well as just a

11:42

case of violence. And, you know,

11:44

I've been, you've seen, both of you have definitely

11:46

seen, uh, both in our friends and online

11:49

when people are like, well, why do women give all fake numbers?

11:52

Like, why don't do that? And you're like, yeah,

11:54

because it's dangerous because men will get turned

11:57

down or something and go wild or like,

11:59

why do Why do women text their address

12:01

to people? Why do, it's like, it's

12:03

for a reason. It's not made up. It's not, this is

12:05

not the boogie man. It's cases like this where you can

12:07

totally see somebody being like, oh, let's get a drink.

12:10

Let's go somewhere. And you're like, yeah, this

12:13

is why people send pictures of people's license

12:15

plates. Like, because it's not a game,

12:17

because these things happen often

12:19

when people let their guards down because they feel

12:21

safe and then something wild happens. Yeah,

12:26

you know, I have

12:28

never been in that targeted space. I

12:30

am a straight black male

12:33

and I have never been felt, been made

12:35

to feel physically unsafe. And

12:37

so, in fact, it's my folks

12:39

who are probably the perpetuate of a lot of

12:41

this type of violence. And so, it's

12:46

interesting to be in a discussion about

12:48

such a fundamental safety

12:50

and equity issue and have no experience with,

12:54

being on the dominant group of both of those and have

12:56

no experience with being in the targeted group. So, I just

12:58

feel for those sisters and it really makes me think more broadly

13:00

about this is a reality for

13:02

a lot of our young women and

13:05

trans women as well. Yeah. Absolutely.

13:12

So, we are switching gears again. And

13:17

my news this week is about Danielle Luna.

13:19

You know, one of my passions are unsung

13:21

people and the fashion industry

13:24

and art, specifically black

13:26

women. I have a shrine to Sylvia Robinson

13:29

because I feel like people don't talk about her enough. I have

13:33

so much to love for, we had to talk

13:35

about Anne Lo last week, who's a designer who's

13:37

now getting her due in

13:41

the mainstream culture. And this week I'm

13:43

talking about Danielle Luna. She just had a HBO

13:46

documentary come out that I'm not

13:48

gonna hold you. I've been

13:50

loving Danielle Luna for a very long time.

13:53

I have my space proof of me

13:55

putting my hand over my eye

13:57

and just really thinking I was in it and I was listening.

14:00

to Jimi Hendrix and I was just listening

14:02

to The Roots and I was just too above it all.

14:04

And I love Danielle Luna because she was such a representation

14:08

of the black alternative and she became

14:10

a representation of the alternative. So

14:13

in the 1960s, a lot of the things

14:15

that are, talked about

14:17

that are associated with the

14:19

1960s woman. So

14:22

sin, a hippie, modern,

14:24

innovative artistic, that

14:27

was who she was. And she was the muse

14:29

for all of that. She was the first

14:31

black woman to cover British folk and

14:34

she was the muse. Now

14:36

here's my beast. That

14:40

documentary, here's

14:42

the thing about these

14:45

sax full documentaries. Because

14:48

you want to handle

14:50

such a, and you think, oh,

14:52

we found the thing, we found the Nina

14:54

Simone of this year we found the person

14:57

who people forgot about, but we can retell their story

15:00

and we can rush all the traffic here. You

15:02

have to really do your work about digging

15:05

into that person's story. And if you're gonna start

15:07

saying things around that person's racial

15:10

identity, how they saw themselves,

15:12

why there's reference to her

15:15

claiming other races, not talking about civil rights

15:17

acts, I felt like a lot of that stuff was handled

15:20

so irresponsibly. And

15:22

I think that, and

15:24

I love the fashion people, I love the editor people,

15:26

I love the magazine people, intelligent people. I

15:29

think when we start, this

15:32

might be the only documentary that Danielle Luna has,

15:34

right? We need to be really responsible about

15:36

talking about this woman's mental health, talking about

15:38

what it means to be in the 1960s, and

15:40

also talk about addiction. I think a lot of those different

15:43

things were handled really poorly. I

15:45

think anytime somebody has obviously either

15:47

committed slow suicide or suicide

15:50

via drugs, I think when you have people

15:52

in their lives saying that's not what happened, or

15:54

that's not real, or whatever, we misstep

15:58

doing the work of really... having to sit

16:00

down with, yes, sometimes black women are

16:05

going through things and sometimes the

16:07

racial tension and the gender tension is too much and

16:09

we find ways to escape

16:13

them that can harm us. We have

16:15

to handle that. We don't want to bring up, oh,

16:17

well, they were happy to me. They love life. They would never

16:19

do that. That's perpetuating a danger too.

16:22

I have a list of things that

16:25

I think were done irresponsibly, specifically as a fan

16:28

of of

16:30

Luna and Daniel Luna

16:32

and as a fan of that

16:34

kind of legacy of black people who really

16:37

disrupted fashion in sixties and seventies and

16:39

I think we could have done a lot better, but let

16:42

it make you want to go search more about Daniel

16:44

Luna. She was a lot of

16:46

avant-garde films in the sixties doing

16:49

a lot of the she was friends

16:51

with Salvador Dali. Salvador Dali made her

16:53

this beautiful dress and just because

16:56

he was so inspired by her figure and her beauty

16:58

and her personality, she is

17:00

one of those people who really changed the course

17:02

of art and the fashion and

17:04

of aesthetic and we could still see her

17:06

DNA. Of course, we

17:10

can connect Daniel Luna's imagery and the chrome

17:12

imagery that she did in 1966 with the imagery

17:15

of either Noel sister who

17:17

are obviously the cultural

17:20

artistic juggernauts of this generation. So

17:22

when you know that somebody's influences

17:25

influencing those girls, you know that they're really a big

17:27

deal, but I would

17:29

let the documentary be at the beginning of

17:33

your research into her and not the conclusion. Did

17:35

y'all watch it? Do y'all

17:37

care? What's what's going on? I know we went from

17:39

sports to fashion. No,

17:42

I fully care. I have not watched it yet.

17:44

There's a lot of content. I just haven't had time

17:46

to catch up on it, but that

17:49

one will make the cue. I will watch

17:51

that one along with the Donna Summer. Oh, that's

17:54

so good. Yeah, yeah, it seems like

17:56

they're in the same vein. But

17:58

full note, I fully. hear you on

18:01

the idea of our

18:03

responsibility to go find out more

18:05

beyond the package documentary that someone gave

18:08

us, right? So yes, and I will I will

18:10

pledge to you that I will do that. I

18:12

saw pieces of this, but I and I saw

18:15

the second I went to a screening of the second episode

18:17

of the new supermodels doc that's coming

18:19

out. That's Naomi, Cindy Crawford,

18:22

evangelista and oh, I

18:25

can't remember the last one was named.

18:27

And it was exceptional. And I think about Luna.

18:29

I think the thing that really

18:32

made me so sad was a heroin

18:35

overdose at 33. I don't know why in my

18:37

mind, she lived a long time. And this is a retrospective.

18:40

And then I was like, Oh, she did a lot.

18:43

And God, it's 33 of a heroin

18:46

overdose. I mean, and

18:48

I think you're right about what happens when you

18:50

do your absolute best work.

18:54

And an editor at Vogue is like, compares

18:57

you to King Kong. That

19:00

would break many people. And

19:03

just I couldn't imagine what it would

19:06

be like to be the muse of Avadon.

19:09

And for Avadon, the famed

19:12

photographer to advocate for you and fight

19:14

for you. Still, and

19:16

like risk like you don't really push.

19:19

And still like a random editor of

19:21

Vogue be like, no, thanks, you know,

19:24

like halter career in such a

19:26

wild way. And this is why I always

19:28

remind people I had this conversation with somebody today that like,

19:31

proximity to whiteness is not power.

19:34

Power is power. And as close

19:37

as you get to white, you cannot be white.

19:39

That is the game. So like, at

19:41

best, you are borrowing the power. And

19:43

when it slaps people in the face, it is often

19:46

like a wild thing. What I'm heartened

19:48

by today is that Vogue while it

19:50

still has a undeniable

19:52

influence. People

19:54

have robust careers without being a Vogue.

19:57

People are known and celebrated.

20:00

And it's not a random white woman at Vogue who

20:02

decides whether you will be seen or not.

20:04

I'm happy that we have passed that moment. And even

20:07

when you see the Supermodel doc, wait till

20:09

you hear the way Naomi talks about who

20:11

looked out for her, who didn't. And

20:13

I'll just tell you, the thing I love about, this is not about

20:15

Naomi, but I will tell you, what I love

20:17

about Naomi is that she has the right to be

20:20

angry in a very particular way, because Lord knows people

20:22

didn't do her right. And I watched

20:24

this interview recently where somebody asked her about

20:26

the Beyonce line in the song, where she's like, do

20:28

the Naomi Campbell walk, then the Naomi Campbell

20:30

walk. And the

20:33

interviewer says, have you ever been anywhere

20:35

where people do that, where people are like doing the Naomi

20:37

Campbell walk? And she's like, yeah, you know, I've

20:39

been in some rooms. And then Naomi

20:41

says, everybody has

20:43

a walk inside of them. And you're like, this

20:46

is what makes you Naomi Campbell. I

20:49

love that, I love that. But yeah,

20:52

I hope that you all watch it, and just to put

20:54

a pin on it, I think that the next frontier

20:56

when it comes to what we talk about

20:58

when it comes to black mental health has to be,

21:00

I think we got black anxiety, we

21:02

got black depression,

21:05

I think we're really bringing those out,

21:07

but we have to start talking about it, and it's an academic

21:09

conversation about like black madness

21:12

and like the things that are not as easily talked

21:14

about. So when people are experiencing

21:17

black racialized trauma, how

21:19

sometimes violence comes from that, or addictions

21:22

or things that are not as easily talked about, like depression

21:24

and anxiety come up. And I think Danielle Luna

21:26

is one of those stories, and the Simone is one of those

21:28

stories. And I think that we can, I

21:32

think that we're ready as a people to

21:35

talk about it. And Miles and

21:37

Dom, what do you, how would you explain

21:39

what we lose when we don't do those conversations

21:42

well? Like when we say things like,

21:44

oh no, they would never do this, it

21:46

wasn't as bad as people trying to make it seem,

21:49

like what is lost there? It's not

21:51

about the person who's already passed away,

21:53

right? Because that person is gone. It's about

21:55

reestablishing a type of shame

21:58

for the people who are dealing with it. that who are watching

22:00

you say that, you know? So,

22:03

because it's not, so Daniel Luna

22:05

in HBO doing that, it's not really about Daniel

22:08

Luna, it's about a me

22:10

who's went through things and who's went

22:12

through addictions and

22:15

mental breakdowns and has went through

22:17

having intrusive

22:19

thoughts and medications and all these other things that are not

22:22

pretty and feeling

22:24

invalidated because that's not what black people do or

22:26

know you love life. I love life and hate

22:29

it being inside my mind. They can be simultaneous.

22:32

I've had great jokes and laughs at

22:34

DeRay and DeRay showing

22:36

all their teeth and maybe a week later I'm going

22:39

through something and it's hard, you know what I mean? Those

22:41

things can live together and we have to deal the fact

22:44

that black joy and black girl magic

22:46

can also coincide with

22:49

black queer rage and black

22:51

madness, all these things are a part of black

22:54

experience. Yeah,

22:58

I mean, I just think you lose.

23:01

So, in venture capital terms,

23:03

value created, value destroyed, value

23:06

captured. I mean, it's

23:08

actually immeasurable, like

23:10

the infinity sign, the

23:12

value destroyed by not affirming

23:15

individual classes of people, right? Because

23:17

people actually do commit suicide. I've

23:19

had that happen in, you know, three

23:21

or four distinct instances over the last five

23:23

years since the pandemic

23:26

with very close friends. And

23:29

it's an incalculable loss, right? Literally,

23:32

you cannot calculate the value that's destroyed

23:37

when people end up, and frankly, by

23:41

not having the conversations, the future value

23:43

that will be destroyed. We won't be able

23:45

to save people from this similar

23:47

fate when it was so preventable, right?

23:50

And it was so foreseeable, right?

23:52

Forseeable as well as preventable. And

23:54

when something is preventable, maybe you did, maybe you

23:56

didn't, but if it's foreseeable and preventable,

23:59

like we... have responsibility for that, right?

24:01

We all have culpability for that by not

24:04

forcing these discussions because the

24:06

end loss is so incalculable

24:08

to your question, DeRay, that we're all responsible

24:11

for the losses and the poorer we get by

24:13

not having those discussions.

24:15

Hey, you're listening to Pod Save the People.

24:18

Stay tuned, there's more to come. Pod

24:20

Save the People is brought to you by USA

24:22

for UNHCR.

24:24

USA

24:25

for UNHCR, the United Nations

24:28

Refugee Agency responds to emergencies

24:30

and provides long-term solutions for refugees

24:33

in places like Ukraine, Syria,

24:36

Afghanistan, Sudan, and many more.

24:39

UNHCR supports people forced

24:41

to flee from war, violence, and persecution

24:44

at their greatest moment of need. Every

24:46

day displaced families struggle to meet basic needs

24:48

like providing meals and clean water for their

24:50

children. For many, the last few

24:52

years have been the hardest. The global

24:55

repercussions of the war in Ukraine,

24:57

leading to steep rises in the cost of basic

25:00

commodities like food and fuel, combined

25:02

with the climate crisis and COVID-19,

25:05

formed a triple threat. Because of the

25:07

commitment of their compassionate donors, UNHCR

25:10

sends relief supplies and deploys

25:12

its highly trained staff anywhere in the

25:14

world at any given time. UNHCR

25:17

is able to deploy within 72 hours of

25:19

a large-scale emergency and jumpstart

25:22

relief and protection assistance. Help

25:24

deliver urgent aid. Your support

25:27

can provide life-saving care and hope

25:29

for a better future. Donate to USA

25:32

for UNHCR by visiting unrefugees.org

25:36

donation.

25:37

Etsy has it everyone. Yes, it's

25:40

true. Etsy is where style

25:42

seekers, vintage hunters, longtime renters,

25:44

and new homeowners alike go to shop for style,

25:47

home decor, and gifts from independent

25:49

sellers. Are you looking for signature

25:51

jackets, handwoven linens, and personalized

25:53

jewelry for your wardrobe? Etsy has

25:55

it. Or maybe some stunning artwork, pillows,

25:58

and rucks for your home? has it.

26:00

How about gifts for any occasion like

26:03

handmade throw blankets, mugs, totes, and

26:05

rings? Yep, Etsy has it.

26:07

There's so much to discover and we can't

26:09

wait for you to find what your style-seeking,

26:12

home-upgrading, gift-giving heart desires,

26:14

whatever it is you're looking for. Whether

26:16

it's serveware and table linens for entertaining

26:19

or a handbag and a perfect jacket to make

26:21

sure you're looking like your best self at any given

26:23

moment, this is your invitation to

26:25

find it because Etsy has it.

26:28

Find home, style, and gifts for you for

26:30

all budgets and any occasion. Etsy

26:33

has it.

26:34

Shop etsy.com.

26:38

Welcome back to our studio where we have a special guest

26:40

with us today, Toucan Sam from

26:43

Fruit Loops. Toucan Sam, welcome.

26:45

It's my pleasure to be here. Oh, and

26:48

it's Fruit Loops. Just

26:50

so you know. Fruit. Fruit.

26:54

Yeah. Fruit.

26:55

No, it's Frooooooot

26:57

Loops. The same way you say studio.

27:02

That's not how we say it. Fruit

27:06

Loops.

27:16

This week, I don't have a particular article

27:18

to discuss, but I'm struck by the notion

27:20

that there are two major strikes happening

27:23

right now in our labor workforce.

27:25

First is UAW. United Auto Workers

27:27

are striking against the big auto producers.

27:30

And that is probably 50,000

27:33

jobs right now currently on strike. I want to

27:35

get an accurate number on that. But

27:38

it is parallel to

27:41

the SAG AFSA strike, the Screen

27:43

Actors Guild and the Writer's Strike out in Hollywood,

27:45

which has grinded Hollywood to

27:48

a halt and we're not seeing new productions and

27:50

so on and so forth. So all the writers and the actors are

27:52

on strike alongside the auto

27:54

workers. And I think that the thing that is incontrovertibly

27:57

in common between the two. is

28:00

a couple of elements. Number one, the

28:02

American car and the ability to tell

28:05

our story are kind of the pillars

28:07

of this broad American mythology

28:10

that we tell ourselves, right, about who

28:12

we are and about American exceptionalism.

28:14

And so much of that is centered around the

28:16

mighty American car industry and

28:19

this notion of Hollywood, which we

28:21

own and control. These are two industries that

28:23

are not unique to America but native to here

28:26

in that we started them and we dominate them.

28:29

But I think that what's more important

28:31

here is the notion

28:34

that both industries are fighting with

28:36

how to treat people properly, pay people

28:38

properly in the wake of innovation.

28:41

This key issue, one of the key issues in

28:43

the UAW strike is how

28:45

do we make room for

28:48

workers and worker pay in

28:50

light of the AI

28:52

and the automation that's gonna come from a push

28:54

toward electric vehicles. So if we push

28:57

toward electric vehicles, there's no

28:59

obligation on behalf of the automakers,

29:01

particularly the big three, to make

29:04

sure that those jobs are retained, to make sure that

29:06

people are paid, to even learn to

29:08

program the AI or whatever might be necessary.

29:11

There's no guarantee to these workers in

29:13

light of all of this. And these workers having

29:15

got us to a place where we could innovate in the direction

29:17

of electronic vehicles. Major issue

29:19

in the Hollywood strike is similar. What

29:22

are we going to do to pay actors in

29:24

light of AI who could create entire

29:26

universities of extras, who

29:29

can write scripts? How are we going to properly compensate

29:31

writers and actors in light of

29:33

the coming innovation? And I

29:35

just think in both of these situations, I'm

29:38

so proud of this extraordinarily

29:40

difficult spot that the striking

29:43

labor employees have themselves in, because

29:46

they are securing the future for people

29:48

who they'll never meet. They are securing the

29:50

future to make sure that their future

29:53

generations of kids who get into these

29:55

spaces are treated fairly, because

29:57

the one thing that's not going anywhere is

29:59

the... technology which drives the innovation,

30:02

right? And which will be able to drive ways to not properly

30:04

pay people. So I think that that's an

30:06

unspoken about commonality

30:09

between both of these. And I think we should probably

30:11

find, try to find a way to explore more. Miles,

30:16

I'm really interested in what you have to say about Drew

30:18

Barrymore, because she was the last

30:21

person impacted heavily by

30:24

the strike,

30:27

which rippled through the talk. And then Jenna

30:29

Brides and show. So I'll just

30:31

keep you guys interested to hear you before

30:34

I see anything like that. In terms of UAW,

30:36

what I love about it is first that it's a white

30:38

man who's the face of it. Cause Lord knows people

30:41

try to make it seem like labor is only, you

30:43

know, it's like only, you know, black

30:45

people, da, da, da, da, da. And it's like, nope,

30:48

I like, I love that this white man is on TV

30:50

being like, not enough money, not

30:52

enough, da, da, da, da, like in the heat they're doing,

30:56

there's a formal name for it, but there's a type

30:59

of strike. It's not called the prize

31:01

strike, but where they don't announce for the strikes

31:03

can happen, but they just, the people just

31:05

don't show up today to work. And

31:08

I love it. So like the big three are

31:10

stressed, you know, Ford sent people home

31:12

on the other one sent people home and

31:14

they offered a 20% increase. And

31:17

the guy was like, not enough. Somebody tweeted

31:19

the bet, the most important vote I've made in my

31:21

life was for that union president. I'm like, you

31:23

know what? Yes, because here's the thing is,

31:26

and this is like the, this is the dirty side

31:28

of capitalism is that there's never enough

31:30

profit for the companies. They are making

31:33

record profit. One of the

31:35

CEOs of the big three did an interview that says she gets

31:38

performance pay. She makes $30 million a year. A

31:42

year. And-

31:44

29 million, right? Don't be

31:47

disrespectful. You don't have to blow it. I'm just

31:49

pointing out- She literally got on TV and said, I

31:51

make performance pay. And the union president got on TV

31:53

and said, you get paid for other people's

31:55

work. And it's like, I actually love that this is

31:57

happening in public. in

32:00

TV and like we

32:02

should do that more often. And there's

32:05

enough money for people. There just is enough money

32:07

for people. And when we don't sort

32:09

of be honest about the fact that there's certain people

32:11

who feel like your job isn't worthy and you should

32:13

struggle, just like did y'all see that clip

32:15

of the guy who was like, we need that, we need 40% unemployment.

32:18

Did you see that clip? No, no. Okay,

32:21

we can talk about the next week. So there's a guy who literally, he does

32:24

a whole speech. He's like, we need 40% unemployment so that

32:26

the workers understand that we have power and they don't.

32:28

And he gets videotaped. And then he like

32:30

apologizes later, but he's like the

32:33

whole point is that the workers understand that they

32:35

do not have power. And like

32:37

he just said it out loud and in a place that got recorded.

32:40

But I do believe that is what most

32:42

of the titans and quotes believe.

32:45

Sure it is. I mean, it's the old Chris Rock adage

32:48

of minimum wage literally translates

32:50

to, if I could pay you less, I would.

32:54

And a whole lot of folks are not too far

32:56

away from if I could pay you nothing,

32:58

I would. And we know what that was.

33:00

The seven letter word started with an S, right? But

33:03

when you see folks who are willing

33:05

to let employees not

33:08

be at a livable wage and actively

33:10

finding ways, particularly in the way in Hollywood

33:13

situation, actively finding ways

33:15

to eliminate actors and eliminate

33:18

writers from the process,

33:22

creativity and artistic merit be

33:24

damned, right? Yeah, you

33:26

just see that there is a legitimate space

33:29

in which there would be, folks

33:31

do want 40% unemployment, people do. And

33:33

if they would want you to work, they would want you to do it for

33:35

free. There will never be enough

33:38

profit for the companies. You're exactly right, Doreen.

33:41

And I think,

33:43

so moving through

33:45

two things at one time, I'm having my own

33:47

experiences in theater

33:51

and that world right

33:53

now. And because it's

33:55

new to me, I go in with my big, annoying

33:58

feminist, queer. So

34:01

I'm over here kind of like connecting

34:04

things that are happening exploitation-wise

34:06

and when it comes to writing and when it comes to actors, when

34:09

it comes to directors and producers with

34:11

like minstrelsy and like, oh, like

34:13

what's going on, like literally witnessing some things happen

34:15

where I'm like, Oh, if

34:17

an actor does this, that's writing

34:20

or if somebody does this, they should be getting credit

34:22

not just for what they're doing

34:25

performing, but they should get credit for this. And

34:27

what does that look like residuals? I like, I totally

34:29

understand how exploitation

34:31

can happen in a way that's a little bit more real for

34:33

me. And what I do like connecting this

34:35

to Drew Barrymore situation is

34:38

that so often people are able

34:40

just to be the face of the monster

34:43

because we love Drew Barrymore. And I never say that. And

34:45

I never seen ET, but I seen the clips

34:47

and she looks cute and she's lovable.

34:50

And, you know, I know

34:54

that she was at Studio 54 and she made it out. So

34:57

she's the fit and she runs outside and she

34:59

loves the rain. So she's the face

35:02

of exploitation. Then who can hit her?

35:05

Who can curse her out? And now what I like

35:07

about the internet is that, oh, if you want to be the face

35:09

of it, when it's everything's all good. And

35:13

if you want to go and sing with Chaka Khan

35:15

and make all our hearts warm, then we still

35:17

need to see underneath your hood. We still need

35:19

to see what's going on to think

35:21

that we, to the thing that we don't understand. And

35:25

then when it happens to Ellen, when those rumors started coming out with

35:27

her, we still need to see underneath your hood and we're no

35:29

longer falling for people being

35:32

the nice face while they're

35:35

on television and then exploiting

35:37

people being harmful or just

35:40

being a powerful bystander while

35:43

other people get exploited. And

35:46

it's like, we don't care how cute you were

35:48

in ET and we don't care how much you love the rain.

35:50

If you're exploiting these workers, we're still

35:52

going to come for your throat. And I really like that. I think

35:55

that's necessary. Well,

35:58

what's so odd about the Drew Barrymore thing is that she's like... like

36:00

people need my show. And you're like, okay,

36:02

Drew, the show is new.

36:05

Like the level of arrogance

36:07

that you believe that of all the things

36:10

that got pulled off TV because of strikes,

36:12

the only person who could say that with a straight face,

36:15

even we, we still be like, it's a strike. Oprah

36:18

could say people might need her show

36:20

as like a matter of- Super Soul Sunday.

36:22

Yeah, you might be like, people just need it.

36:24

And like, we still would be like, Oprah, come on, it's a

36:26

strike. But she could say people need

36:28

it with her chest and be like, you're like, okay, girl.

36:31

But I think Barrymore, but, but, but

36:33

you know, that's interesting because

36:36

Bill Maher did the same thing. Right? And we're not

36:38

going to let his punk ass escape with none of this smoke

36:40

as well. And so he did the

36:42

same logic of I actually employ

36:45

people and this and that. And

36:47

yes, you do, but that

36:49

is to quote the amazing Casey

36:51

Gerald, such an impoverished vision,

36:54

right? Because it only takes into account

36:56

the 50 people on your staff who you see

36:58

every day, as opposed to the much broader

37:01

picture of even future generations

37:03

of who we're doing, not even future generations,

37:05

but thinking about them, it's a show in

37:07

the studio next door to yours, A-Home,

37:10

right? And those people won't be coming back just

37:13

because you, you know, want to be a white

37:15

savior to this universe of 25

37:17

that you have, right? So what about the bigger

37:19

picture of folks who are struggling, not

37:22

to mention the longterm. So it's

37:24

a really weird narcissistic thing

37:26

to kind of show that you can

37:29

do this and you have the power to do this, even

37:31

in the face of saying, you know, I'm trying to

37:33

bring my people back to work. So

37:36

we've talked about the anti-trans laws

37:38

that are happening across the country. It's

37:40

been, this is not new news that has happened

37:42

before, but what is new and what

37:44

I didn't even know what's happening until I started

37:46

to do more, you know, this is a thing that

37:48

happens in police world too. I didn't know what's

37:51

happening with the anti-trans laws is that

37:53

there's a cottage industry of quote,

37:57

experts who are

37:59

the witness.

37:59

in these cases.

38:02

And this article that's in Huffington Post

38:05

starts by talking about Dr.

38:07

Paul Frews, who

38:11

is a pediatric

38:13

endocrinologist at Washington

38:16

University. And it's at the one

38:18

time. So my

38:21

news this week is about the cottage

38:23

industry of experts

38:25

in air quotes who

38:28

testify against any gender

38:30

affirming care. And they are the backbone

38:33

of the anti-trans laws that are sweeping

38:35

the country. And this

38:38

article starts by talking about Dr. Paul Frews,

38:41

who's at WashU School of Medicine St. Louis. And

38:43

he was meeting with the

38:46

woman in charge of bringing the gender affirming

38:48

care

38:49

practice to WashU. And

38:52

he literally goes into a lecture

38:54

about God's plan. And if

38:57

you knew the writings of Pope John Paul

38:59

II on gender, you would understand. But

39:02

he is actually one of the

39:04

leading experts. He's been in at least 12 cases

39:08

about this as an expert. He is an endocrinologist.

39:11

And again, he believes, quote, that being

39:13

trans goes back to some of the early

39:15

heresies in the church. And

39:19

most importantly for this, he

39:21

has actually been recruit. He

39:23

is one of many people and have

39:25

been a set of experts who have been

39:28

recruited by the Alliance Defending Freedom, which

39:31

is a conservative legal powerhouse.

39:34

And they are governed by, quote, a

39:37

far right Christian values.

39:40

So they get paid hundreds of dollars an

39:42

hour and it has an impact.

39:46

So these are the experts who go into

39:48

the field. Now,

39:50

as you can imagine, the people

39:52

who do this work, like at Lambda Legal, are clear.

39:55

And I'll read their quote. These are not real experts. They're

39:57

manufactured as experts by the opponents of the United States.

39:59

transgender rights. And

40:02

HuffPo did a lot of work on this. They went

40:04

through thousands of court filings, state

40:06

vendor databases, and what they saw

40:09

was that the expert witnesses pulled

40:11

down five figures in return

40:13

for just a few weeks of work. And since 2016,

40:16

state and local governments have spent more than $1.1 million

40:19

on expert testimony, much

40:22

of it going to just six,

40:25

six, six

40:28

witnesses. So I wanted to

40:30

bring this here because when you think about things like the

40:33

bathroom ban and all this other nonsense

40:35

that people are working on in the

40:38

vein of the anti-trans laws, there's

40:40

actually a really, really small

40:43

group of people who

40:45

are undergirding it as experts

40:48

from a medical standpoint. Yeah,

40:51

this is, I mean, I don't

40:53

want to reduce it to the simplicity

40:55

of it being a money grab, but that's a significant

40:58

part of it that a lot of times us as

41:00

an activist community or leftist community

41:03

don't fully understand, right? We're just thinking

41:05

they hate us. Yes, that's true, but

41:07

let's be very, very clear about something. The

41:10

monied side of American politics

41:12

and public affairs is on the right

41:15

and the far right. They find ways

41:17

to compensate people to carry

41:19

out their mission. And

41:21

I

41:21

used to practice law back when I was Miles'

41:24

age, and it is very clear

41:26

that every step of the way in

41:29

matters of civil litigation requires

41:32

expert witness testimony. If

41:35

I said I was burned by this acid,

41:38

then I would have an expert dermatologist and an acidologist

41:40

come in, and those people are compensated

41:43

mightily by whichever side

41:45

they would be testifying for. That's

41:49

an unspoken part of our justice

41:51

system is that we pay people to testify

41:54

to achieve outcomes all the time. Now

41:57

that we have a universe of anti-trans,

42:00

anti-gay, anti-illigative.

42:03

This entire universe of hate litigation

42:06

breeds the same type of economic

42:08

opportunities for those who would testify

42:11

as experts, no different than anything

42:13

else in the context of global

42:16

civil litigation. So those

42:19

are funded by these extraordinary right-wing

42:22

groups who fund all of the stuff,

42:24

Club for Growth, Heritage

42:28

Foundation. There are deep-money right-wing

42:31

interests who are funding litigation

42:33

just in the same way that they fund elections

42:36

and so on and so forth. And part of funding

42:38

litigation is funding experts. The

42:40

last thing I'll say is in this social context,

42:43

it's just some idiot motherfucker's opinion, right?

42:46

These are not PhDs.

42:49

You might find someone who has

42:52

the occasional credential, like an endocrinologist,

42:54

just to give his own religious opinion.

42:57

And so it's really silly. It's really pernicious,

43:00

but we should recognize that there is a

43:02

business to advocacy and a business

43:04

to litigation that is being weaponized

43:07

against us as people who believe in everybody's

43:09

humanity. So

43:13

here's my thing,

43:15

and Doree knows that I'm so passionate about this.

43:17

I do think it's still a storytelling thing

43:19

too. And I think when you listen to what these men are saying,

43:21

and even when I think of

43:28

platforms like Brexit and stuff like that,

43:30

when you listen to what they're saying, it's so clear that in like right

43:32

now, but also in 20 and 30 years, in the same

43:34

way eugenics is like, I cannot believe y'all

43:38

were going around saying this, these type of ideas

43:40

and this type of speech is going to be

43:44

seen the same way. The weird thing about

43:46

what's happening right now is that it feels as though

43:48

the left whole determination is all around saying, no, that's

43:51

not true. No,

43:51

that's not true. No, that's not

43:54

true. No, that's not true. That's true. Instead of creating

43:56

just as many people as you can, they're

44:00

saying this is what is true. Well, this is what

44:02

is true. This is what trans is

44:04

being like. This is what's going on. And we have

44:07

maybe two documentaries in a Laverne Cox

44:09

interview. That's just not enough to make

44:11

sure that the general public is equipped with

44:13

the knowledge, because

44:17

that's really where it happens. Because at the end of

44:19

the day, my mama has

44:22

to go to work. And if she didn't have such

44:24

a brilliant, non-binary trans black

44:27

child, she would just be clueless. And

44:30

she's a black lesbian. And I'm like, mom, you can't

44:32

say that. And she still messes up

44:34

because why? She got things to do.

44:37

So if somebody can cold this ignorance

44:39

in enough Christianity, in enough sense,

44:42

it can really start to harm people. And I think the

44:44

left really has to think about how are

44:46

we telling stories and how are we being just

44:48

as creative when it comes to telling stories? And the

44:50

story just can't be the war on this or

44:53

going against that. It has to be, this is our

44:56

Genesis myth, based

44:58

off of facts. We have

45:00

to have things that are just as compelling and

45:02

just as riveting and just as backed up because

45:05

the right just feels like they just eaten it up when

45:08

it comes to mismaking. And

45:11

if you take, it's

45:13

like as soon as that one Scooby-Doo episode

45:15

is over and you figure out, oh my

45:18

goodness, that wasn't a ghost, that was Clarence

45:20

Thomas. As soon as that's done,

45:22

we got another one. I'm like, who is this person?

45:25

I didn't even know him two years ago. Who was this new person?

45:27

I think that's what we need to really, as well.

45:31

We need to add that on. Well,

45:33

you have to remember that all of this is

45:36

part of the democratic experiment. And

45:39

black folks have really only been allowed

45:42

to participate in the democratic experiment

45:44

for the last 50 years,

45:47

right? And with progressively

45:49

more participation going forward.

45:51

So what that looks like today is

45:55

folks who have been allowed not only to participate,

45:57

but to create the rules of the game.

46:00

they're doing niche shit like funding

46:03

expert witnesses. And we're

46:05

worried about running candidates, right?

46:07

For state rep or having, you

46:10

know, the first African-American county

46:13

dog catcher. And all of those positions

46:15

matter because any position of

46:17

public trust is an opportunity for you to make

46:20

decisions that are equitable for everybody

46:22

as opposed to serving a niche group. But

46:25

they are so, we're worried about

46:27

a horse race and candidates while they

46:29

are so far into participating

46:32

that they have an opportunity to really

46:35

dig into the nitty gritty of elements

46:37

of governance and public

46:40

life that many times we don't

46:42

even know exist. Right? But

46:44

they have been able to examine and

46:47

systematize and operationalize the

46:49

hate in a way that we're just still

46:51

on a very surface level in terms of

46:53

participation in the democratic experiment.

46:56

Donno, I do have a question to Miles' push

46:58

because you were an elected official at the

47:01

state level. You've been in politics for

47:03

a while helping people in the lobby,

47:05

I think, and do things. What do you say to

47:07

the lack of storytelling on the left? Like this

47:09

idea that, you know, as an organizer, we would always say the first

47:12

act is the story. And I feel like the

47:14

left doesn't, the right has all these stories

47:16

that are wild, racist, crazy, xenophobic,

47:18

bigoted. And the left is like, their

47:20

lying seems to be our best story. What

47:22

do you say to that? That's a

47:24

great question. You

47:27

know, when you are, so the idea

47:29

of a communications officer or a

47:31

person in any given campaign or

47:33

organization that's in charge specifically of

47:35

communications, that's a relatively

47:38

new beast of the last 20 years. Because

47:40

when you are concerned with

47:43

most activist organizations, when you're concerned

47:45

with keeping your people from dying,

47:47

making sure your people have actual food,

47:50

making sure your people have safe spaces to

47:52

retreat to, protect

47:54

themselves from gunfire and other poverty crimes.

47:57

You know, that's kind of where we're focused

47:59

on. a lot of our organizations and by

48:01

organizations, I'm talking about congressional staff offices

48:04

as well, who have represented marginalized

48:06

people. A lot of us are just now growing

48:09

to universities of sophistication, where

48:11

we're even considering storytelling as

48:13

an elemental aspect of what we're trying

48:16

to achieve every day. And so I always,

48:18

you know, I don't wanna be too reductionist,

48:20

but the top of mind

48:23

thought for me is that our

48:25

best and brightest have always been attuned

48:27

to meeting our people's very basic,

48:30

lowest level Maslow situation,

48:32

right? And we have not yet had the freedom

48:35

of participation in this country to tune

48:37

ourselves toward higher concepts beyond

48:41

air, water, food, safety and security, right?

48:43

And one day, hopefully we'll be able to look

48:45

at aesthetics and beauty in,

48:48

but in the story of our people, that

48:50

stuff has always mattered as an elemental

48:52

aspect of expression. And that's why it's important

48:54

to understand who sister Luna

48:56

was, right? And not who they tell us she was.

48:59

So I hope that wasn't too weird of an answer,

49:02

but that's what I got. No,

49:04

that was a good answer because that

49:06

shows that you definitely practice law.

49:09

And go right in the car. No,

49:12

but I do think, I totally get it, because most

49:14

of the times people are doing serious work, right?

49:17

And I think even things that I would

49:19

say are coded queer or feminine

49:21

are automatically coded as like unimportant. But

49:24

at the end of the day, this

49:27

is a made up statistic that's just coming by what

49:30

I think. I would imagine

49:32

that most people who

49:34

are on the left, who are in America, a lot

49:36

of those people are seeing probably 10 TikToks

49:40

or 10 Instagram posts or 10 tweets before

49:42

they ever read one article. So

49:45

I'm like, if we don't figure out a way, so I think

49:48

the Democrats, I think the communications

49:50

people, they need to say, you know what? We

49:53

need 10 silly people. I'm

49:56

a silly person. I care about how things look,

49:58

how things sound, cool on Instagram,

50:01

TikTok editing, I care about all this silly stuff

50:03

is not the real things. But that

50:06

is really the gateway and getting to

50:08

people's minds and getting these stories out. Because

50:10

at the end of the day, they're seeing 10 TikToks

50:13

before they're opening up this journal. You

50:15

know, that's just the that's just how this

50:17

generation is built right now. Yeah,

50:20

I turned 44 today and I'm so far

50:22

detached. Happy birthday. Happy

50:25

birthday. Thank you. Thank you. I

50:27

have no concept of so

50:29

much. I mean, I watched my kids do

50:32

it. And but it gets further

50:34

and further from me every day. But you're absolutely

50:36

right. We have to be in those certain spaces. Because

50:39

those men know that's how those men who

50:41

are I mean, the stream cases, those those

50:43

teenage boys who are going in those stores and

50:46

shooting up things, they know where those kids

50:48

are. And by the time they turn 16 17 18, those those boys are

50:52

ready to end their lives

50:54

based off of what they found on the internet. Now imagine if

50:56

that was a love politic or a radical

50:58

politic doing the same thing to your children

51:01

or to our children in the same

51:03

way we can definitely do those same

51:06

tactics. Yeah, it's out there. I mean,

51:08

there are universities on the internet in which Kyle

51:10

Rittenhouse is a cult hero, you know,

51:13

there are there are spaces and places

51:16

in which young white boys

51:18

and not young men yet boys are now

51:20

being, you know, desensitized to

51:23

racist and homophobic

51:26

jokes and all of that. And there's this kind of

51:28

consistent thread that's rising about

51:30

who, you know, that wasn't

51:33

that bad. That's not offensive.

51:35

And you know, you're starting to see those mindsets

51:38

develop very, very

51:40

early. And it's yes, and it is using those

51:42

things. To your point, they're using these

51:44

avenues, right? And we on the left

51:46

need to be committed to finding our voice

51:49

in those spaces as well. Don't

51:51

go anywhere more positive people's coming.

51:58

Etsy has it everyone. Yes.

51:59

Yes, it's true. Etsy is where

52:02

style seekers, vintage hunters, long-time

52:04

renters, and new homeowners alike go to

52:06

shop for style, home decor, and gifts

52:08

from independent sellers. Are you

52:10

looking for signature jackets, hand-woven

52:12

linens, and personalized jewelry for your wardrobe?

52:15

Etsy has it. Or maybe some stunning artwork,

52:18

pillows, and rugs for your home? Etsy

52:20

has it. How about gifts for any

52:22

occasion, like handmade throw blankets,

52:24

mugs, totes, and rings? Yep,

52:27

Etsy has it. There's so much to discover,

52:29

and we can't wait for you to find what your

52:31

style-seeking, home-upgrading, gift-giving

52:33

heart desires. Whatever it is you're

52:35

looking for, whether it's surfwear and

52:38

table linens for entertaining, or a handbag

52:40

and a perfect jacket to make sure you're looking like

52:42

your best self at any given moment, this

52:45

is your invitation to find it, because

52:47

Etsy has it. Find home, style,

52:50

and gifts for you, for all budgets, and

52:52

any occasion. Etsy has it. Shop

52:55

Etsy.com. Welcome

52:57

back to our studio, where we

52:59

have a special guest with us today, Toucan

53:01

Sam from Froot Loops. Toucan Sam,

53:03

welcome. It's my pleasure to

53:06

be here. Oh, and, um, it's Froot

53:09

Loops, just so you know. Uh,

53:11

fruit. Froot. Yeah,

53:13

fruit.

53:14

No, it's Froot

53:17

Loops, the same way you say studio.

53:22

That's not how we say it. Froot Loops,

53:24

5-0. Froot Loops, find the loopy

53:26

side.

53:29

When you're craving a vegan meatball sub

53:31

from the sandwich shop down the road, get fast

53:33

delivery through DoorDash. And when you need stain

53:36

remover because you used your t-shirt as a napkin,

53:38

get fast delivery through DoorDash. Then

53:40

later, when you're marathoning cooking shows and

53:42

start to think making lemongrass ginger

53:44

macaroons from scratch can't be that

53:47

hard, you can still get fast delivery

53:49

through DoorDash. Get groceries and anything

53:51

else you could need from your neighborhood with DoorDash.

53:54

Place your first order now at DoorDash.com

53:56

or the app and get a $0 delivery fee. Terms

53:59

apply.

54:10

This week we welcome Mary Hooks on the pod.

54:12

She serves as the National Field Secretary for the Movement

54:14

for Black Lives and the Tactical Leave for the Stop

54:17

Cop City Coalition. Now the

54:19

Stop Cop City Coalition is a nationwide

54:21

movement to stop the construction of a $90 million

54:24

Atlanta Police Department training

54:26

facility just outside the city. Have you heard

54:28

about it? I've heard about it. A

54:30

lot of people have heard about it. But I hadn't talked to

54:32

somebody who was helping to lead the strategy until

54:34

now. You know, when you look

54:36

at it, do the police need

54:38

a $90 million training

54:41

facility in Atlanta? The answer is no. Me

54:44

and Mary talk about the Stop Cop City Coalition

54:46

strategy, the mission, and

54:48

the efforts that the city is employed to

54:51

silence the activists. And as you can

54:53

imagine, the activists will not be

54:55

silenced. Here

54:56

we go. Mary, thanks so much for joining us today

54:58

on Pod Save the People.

55:00

Thank you for having me. Thank you for

55:02

having me.

55:03

So let's start with your story. How did you

55:06

get involved with advocacy, activism?

55:09

Did you always care? Did something happen that

55:11

sort of brought you into the work? How did

55:14

you get here?

55:15

Well, you

55:17

know, I'm a child of the 80s, right? And

55:20

was a teenager in the 90s. I remember

55:23

when Hillary Clinton called us,

55:25

what was

55:28

that term that she

55:28

used? The term of a... Super

55:31

predators.

55:31

Super predators, yes. I recall that. And

55:33

I also, you know, grew up in a family

55:36

that was deeply impacted by

55:38

the

55:38

war on drugs and the crack epidemic. And

55:41

I grew up thinking that it was our fault, that

55:43

our family just made

55:44

bad decisions. And

55:46

why, you know, and all the consequences

55:49

that come with that. But

55:51

it wasn't until about 17

55:55

years

55:55

ago I'd moved to Atlanta, was

55:58

tired of my job and my relationship.

55:59

gave both the two we've noticed. To

56:03

Atlanta

56:04

and one that I happened

56:06

to be in a bar picking up the ladies and

56:10

I had encountered a woman and I asked

56:12

her what she did, you know, how in Atlanta

56:15

we network, okay? And

56:17

when I asked her what she did, she said she

56:19

was trying

56:19

to stop the chattering of black women while giving

56:21

birth in prison. And it

56:24

blew

56:24

my mind. And one

56:26

that it was happening, the two that she was doing

56:28

something about it. And

56:31

we became friends and I would ask

56:33

her, persistently, like, say more about

56:35

that. What do you mean? And she

56:37

said, I'm going to introduce you to my political home,

56:40

which was Southerners on New Ground. This

56:42

was circa 2008, 2009. And

56:47

I got introduced to song and

56:49

they invited me to participate in like

56:51

a social justice 101 sort

56:54

of program. And I remember thinking,

56:56

I don't understand half of those terms

56:58

that they use. I've never heard some

57:01

of this language in my whole life, but something

57:03

felt like gospel. And I joined

57:05

as a member and was given

57:07

an assignment shortly thereafter to do

57:10

a listening campaign in Alabama to

57:13

hear how queer people in the South,

57:17

what they were loving on, how they were surviving

57:19

and thriving and what they wanted to fight for. And

57:22

around 2013, I was

57:24

asked to leave the

57:26

work that I was doing at the time I was starting

57:29

my little career doing

57:32

human resources.

57:33

And they asked me to come

57:36

on board full time and commit

57:38

my life to this movement. And I've done it

57:41

ever since.

57:45

Boom.

57:47

It is always interesting to hear the stories

57:50

that got us to this work. And

57:52

I'll come back to that. Let's talk about I'm

57:54

so interested to talk to you about

57:56

cop city.

57:58

It is something that

57:59

people have seen online,

58:02

I'm one of them. We have

58:04

a fellow who worked at Camping General this summer who

58:06

has been organizing on Cop City, but that

58:09

was not her project here. And

58:12

when we sat down, it was like, we gotta

58:15

get somebody on that to help us and our

58:17

listeners understand it better. So can

58:19

you start with the one-on-one? For people who

58:21

know nothing, for people who have heard or seen

58:23

the hashtag, what is Cop

58:25

City? Why does it matter? And

58:28

what are you trying to do about it?

58:30

Yeah, so Cop City is

58:33

a proposed facility

58:38

that is to be built. It's supposed to

58:40

be a police training facility that also

58:42

includes a little corner of space

58:44

for firefighters and EMTs. And

58:48

it is supposed to be built

58:51

in what is known as the Wilani Forest,

58:55

historically known as the home

58:57

of the Muscogee people

58:58

who were pushed out through

59:01

the Trail of Tears. And

59:03

it used to be the site of an old prison

59:05

farm and still adjacent

59:08

to it sits the Youth Detention Center. And

59:11

this was proposed in 2021.

59:14

And two

59:17

years prior to that, that space

59:19

over 300 acres of land, better

59:22

known

59:22

as the Lungs of Atlanta, was

59:25

committed and dedicated to being a public

59:28

park, a place where everyday people

59:30

can enjoy and be with

59:32

nature. But then 2021,

59:34

a formal council

59:37

person brought forth legislation

59:40

saying that they wanted to give

59:42

a list over to the Atlanta Police

59:44

Foundation, which is a private

59:47

nonprofit that raises additional monies

59:50

for police and police

59:52

activities.

59:53

And we were all

59:56

under the impression that the city was committing $30

59:58

million

59:59

monies would come from, you know, corporations

1:00:02

like Delta and Coca-Cola

1:00:04

and Norfolk Southern and many of

1:00:06

those. And immediately

1:00:09

folks were against it. And this

1:00:12

was still during the time that

1:00:15

City Council was in, was

1:00:17

doing virtual meetings due to COVID.

1:00:20

And so there were hours and hours of

1:00:22

public comment saying, uh-uh y'all, we

1:00:24

don't want this. We don't want this. And

1:00:29

that forest offenders

1:00:31

begin occupying that space, begin living

1:00:33

and creating community

1:00:36

in the forest to prevent construction

1:00:39

to begin. And that

1:00:42

went on for a good

1:00:44

two years, give or take. And there were,

1:00:47

you know, several actions and

1:00:50

folks, you know, use all sort

1:00:52

of legal challenges, zoning laws,

1:00:54

all the things to try to prevent

1:00:57

it. And then fast forward to January

1:01:00

18th of this year,

1:01:01

there was a joint operation

1:01:03

between the DeKalb Police Department, the Atlanta

1:01:06

Police Department, and the

1:01:08

Georgia State Troopers. They did a joint

1:01:11

operation to clear the force of the forest

1:01:13

offenders, ultimately moldering

1:01:16

Tortiquita, shooting

1:01:18

them 57 times

1:01:21

as autopsy showed with their hands in

1:01:23

the air. And that,

1:01:27

I believe, began another wave

1:01:29

of folks who had been watching, who had

1:01:32

been trying to figure out how to engage,

1:01:35

and more people began to get involved. And

1:01:37

so there's been all manner

1:01:39

of actions to

1:01:42

prevent the building of cop city.

1:01:45

And as of now, they have taken

1:01:47

down some trees.

1:01:49

There is a current injunction

1:01:52

right now, based

1:01:55

on the violation of the Clear Water Act, that

1:01:57

is, you know, being circulated in the court.

1:02:00

and hopefully a decision will come down to stop

1:02:02

the construction. But

1:02:05

that is what Copsity is. It is

1:02:08

an environmental threat. It sits

1:02:11

right

1:02:11

along, right in the backyard

1:02:13

of a working class black

1:02:14

neighborhood and unincorporated to CAB,

1:02:17

even though the city of Atlanta owns the land,

1:02:20

so the people who live right behind it

1:02:22

don't have any representation on

1:02:24

the city of Atlanta

1:02:26

council, and so they

1:02:29

don't have a voice in the matter. The

1:02:31

water runoffs and what's being put

1:02:33

into the water, which is why that

1:02:36

violation of clean water act is an

1:02:38

issue. It's an environmental

1:02:41

racism issue. There's

1:02:43

an issue because their words

1:02:46

are ours, that they were going to build an urban

1:02:48

warfare training center. They're

1:02:50

literally planning to build a fake city,

1:02:52

which

1:02:53

is why it's called Copsity, with

1:02:55

fake apartment buildings, fake nightclubs,

1:02:58

fake schools, in order to learn

1:03:00

urban warfare tactics to practice on

1:03:02

who, you already know that answer, black

1:03:05

and brown people, working class people,

1:03:07

and to repress

1:03:08

any opposition

1:03:10

to the state. We understand and know

1:03:12

to be true that this is a

1:03:15

direct

1:03:17

response from the uprisings we saw

1:03:20

in 2020. That

1:03:24

is why it is a problem. Not

1:03:27

to mention, and I have to say this, the

1:03:29

ways in which the

1:03:32

democracy is at stake, and

1:03:34

the ways in which people have spent

1:03:36

hours and hours rather

1:03:39

be in front of council giving formal

1:03:42

testimony, people who

1:03:44

have used non-violent

1:03:46

civil disobedience in

1:03:49

order to pressure council.

1:03:51

None of that has worked. Everything that we allegedly

1:03:54

have at our disposal under our

1:03:56

right to free speech has been repressed,

1:03:59

criminalized, and

1:03:59

demonized. And so our aim

1:04:02

is to stop top city to literally

1:04:04

stop the

1:04:07

building of this and

1:04:10

make sure that that 67 million and I'm

1:04:13

going to initially like I said earlier, $30 million

1:04:15

is what the city

1:04:18

claimed for two years that

1:04:20

they were spending and blessings to

1:04:22

the work of the Atlanta Press Collective. They

1:04:26

actually went through the lease and

1:04:28

looked at some of the fine print and learned that Atlanta

1:04:30

would give them $1 million

1:04:32

for the next 30

1:04:35

years. Not to

1:04:37

mention

1:04:37

that they gave the Atlanta Police

1:04:39

Foundation

1:04:40

the lease on that land for $10 a year. $10

1:04:44

a year in the

1:04:46

place in America

1:04:46

with the highest income

1:04:49

gap in the country with some of the worst

1:04:52

housing markets right now,

1:04:54

rent high,

1:04:55

and they get $10

1:04:58

a month, excuse me, a year for a lease.

1:05:00

And

1:05:00

every day people are struggling to pay $1,800, $2,000 for

1:05:05

one bedroom apartment here in this city. And

1:05:08

so there are many, many reasons.

1:05:11

Let's pause for two seconds. I'm going to ask you some

1:05:13

questions on my aunt, who would be

1:05:16

thinking about this. The first is, you know, because Baltimore

1:05:18

is also adopting a, you know, it

1:05:20

is rumored that Cops City is on the

1:05:23

rise and Baltimore is my charm

1:05:25

city monitor. What

1:05:27

is wrong with the training facility? Some people would be like, the

1:05:29

police got to train, the current facility is

1:05:32

bad. You know, they will

1:05:34

be a new facility anyway, because the

1:05:36

current one just doesn't meet standards.

1:05:38

What is your response to the people who say that?

1:05:40

That like, maybe not a really expensive

1:05:42

one, but they need a facility and are

1:05:45

you opposed to the idea of a facility?

1:05:48

Well, police get training

1:05:50

already. And we have

1:05:53

seen over decades, their

1:05:55

training has culminated into

1:05:58

the state sanctioned

1:05:59

violence and murder of black people in

1:06:02

the streets every day.

1:06:03

It's culminated into

1:06:07

folks being able to get away with murder

1:06:09

and rape

1:06:09

in all manner of behavior.

1:06:14

Excessive force continues to rise, even though,

1:06:16

you know, crime continues to go down, but

1:06:18

excessive force continues to rise.

1:06:21

We've, you know, police, the

1:06:24

officer who murdered Ray Shar Brooks had 2,000

1:06:26

plus hours of training including

1:06:30

the escalation, right? And so

1:06:33

I think there is a myth around training that

1:06:35

if we just train them better, they will do

1:06:38

right by us. And

1:06:40

at some point, you have to look

1:06:43

at this thing and say, this actually

1:06:45

isn't, we are spending

1:06:47

money on a thing that does not bring safety

1:06:50

or dignity or anything else to our communities.

1:06:52

And so I think that's one place to start.

1:06:55

And then on a practical level, I will say this,

1:06:58

that

1:06:59

yes, you know, we've

1:07:01

seen the footage, we know what their facility looks

1:07:03

like. And

1:07:05

I don't understand why they

1:07:07

were given a facility that they'd been in for years,

1:07:10

did not maintain it, and now expect

1:07:12

to get a

1:07:13

brand new big shiny thing, the

1:07:15

largest big shiny training

1:07:17

facility that this country will have seen.

1:07:20

And so, you

1:07:23

know, again, practically, do they need training,

1:07:25

you know, based on, you know, the current

1:07:28

conditions, reality that we're in? Yeah,

1:07:30

they need to do training. They work, every job

1:07:32

has training. Did it need to be

1:07:35

in this forest? Did they need to spend $67 million?

1:07:39

Could they not have just done a little rehab to

1:07:41

the space they already had? And

1:07:43

so I think that some of those questions

1:07:46

must be grappled with. And,

1:07:48

you know, right now, the city of Atlanta

1:07:51

gets almost 48%, give or

1:07:53

take, of our city budget. Not to

1:07:55

mention what the Atlanta Police Foundation

1:07:58

raises on their behalf. The

1:08:01

Atlanta

1:08:01

Police Foundation is one of the most well-funded

1:08:03

police foundations because there's police foundations

1:08:06

everywhere. There's

1:08:07

police, but they have one

1:08:09

of the wealthiest. And so I

1:08:11

don't understand why our money is, why our

1:08:13

tax dollars is going to the police

1:08:18

in this way.

1:08:21

And so that is what I would say

1:08:23

to that.

1:08:25

And what would have been some of the biggest misconceptions

1:08:28

that you've had to deal with in this campaign? I

1:08:30

can imagine that the city of Atlanta is telling people all

1:08:32

types of stuff. If we don't get cop city,

1:08:34

hell's going to break loose, the police won't be equipped

1:08:37

to deal with. But what

1:08:39

have you had to deal with as misconceptions

1:08:41

that you have been confronted with as

1:08:44

people engage the issue?

1:08:46

Yeah, I think one

1:08:48

thing is very interesting. And

1:08:52

I'll get to this a little bit later when we talk

1:08:54

about this referendum fight. But

1:08:57

when we are talking to people in canvassing,

1:09:00

some people have

1:09:02

looked at some of the actions of the protesters

1:09:04

as violent. And

1:09:08

I have to call the question. And I say,

1:09:10

and of all the assessments you gave of

1:09:13

the protesters, but not once, did

1:09:15

you call the name of Tortacita or

1:09:17

Rayshard Brooks or Johnny

1:09:19

Holloman, who literally just died

1:09:22

by the hands of police three weeks

1:09:24

ago

1:09:24

on August 10th? And so there is

1:09:26

this posture that we have,

1:09:29

that anything that doesn't mirror

1:09:32

silence, a quiet march,

1:09:35

a peaceful march, is considered

1:09:37

violent. And that

1:09:39

there's this myth that the ways

1:09:41

in which we show our righteous

1:09:44

rage around the betrayal of

1:09:46

our city leaders, we should be

1:09:48

docile in the way in which we do that, while

1:09:50

also not having the

1:09:53

same sort of critique as relates

1:09:56

to the police, which I

1:09:58

think that there's some.

1:09:59

There's some underlying things

1:10:02

there that can explain it. And

1:10:04

we don't have to go into it, but anti-blackness

1:10:07

is everywhere and lives in all of us,

1:10:09

you know, so we must do our work. And

1:10:12

I think it's also, you

1:10:13

know, the mayor has said, you know, that

1:10:15

we were, that there's a, that

1:10:17

there was a silent majority who wanted this.

1:10:20

And just because they weren't coming down

1:10:22

to City Hall, he gets calls

1:10:24

saying that they, people want this. People

1:10:26

want this. And this was a debate we were inside

1:10:29

of before we kicked off this referendum

1:10:31

campaign, that everything was, it's

1:10:33

just these protesters, these

1:10:36

protesters, these outside agitators,

1:10:38

which is so disrespectful given

1:10:41

in the home of the civil rights movement,

1:10:44

where many who come

1:10:46

out of that legacy, Dr. King,

1:10:51

Ralph David Abernathy, and

1:10:53

so many were considered outside

1:10:55

agitators in their heyday, right, when they

1:10:57

would go to places in the Delta and

1:11:00

other places because folks in

1:11:02

the South know and understood that

1:11:04

oftentimes in order to break

1:11:07

the backbone of the type

1:11:09

of racist systems that are here,

1:11:12

that you need national

1:11:14

influence and support. And so

1:11:17

for them to also

1:11:19

invisibilize folks who live here,

1:11:21

folks who love and struggle here and pretend

1:11:24

as if we are not on the front lines of this fight

1:11:26

and just give all of our work

1:11:28

and credit to folks who have come from outside

1:11:31

of the state is disrespectful.

1:11:36

And so, yeah, this question about this, you

1:11:38

know, it's a silent majority who

1:11:40

wants

1:11:40

this. Well, that's why we said, you

1:11:43

know, you saying that people are telling you one

1:11:45

thing, we're hearing something else, let's

1:11:47

actually get real clear about it. And

1:11:49

that's when we begin to kick off this referendum

1:11:52

campaign, which required that we get 15

1:11:54

percent of registered voters who

1:11:56

were registered in 2021 when this legislation was first

1:11:59

written.

1:11:59

raised and that

1:12:02

number is about 58,238 people, right, as to who we

1:12:04

needed to get signatures from.

1:12:09

Well, on Monday we submitted 116,000 signatures of folks

1:12:12

who said we want to see this on

1:12:14

the ballot.

1:12:17

And so it is undeniable that

1:12:20

this is not a conversation of just

1:12:22

a few outside agitator protesters.

1:12:25

These are folks who live here, who love

1:12:27

here, who struggle

1:12:28

here that want to have a say

1:12:31

in the future

1:12:31

of this city.

1:12:36

Now I saw that it looks

1:12:39

as if as of today the city

1:12:41

is using some shady maneuvers

1:12:43

to not engage those signatures. Before

1:12:47

we talk about what you do in response to that,

1:12:49

I'm really interested in have people,

1:12:52

you know, I saw Fair Fight release a statement and

1:12:55

they are a big

1:12:57

group that people know nationally who have

1:12:59

stood, seemingly have stood alongside

1:13:01

you as, you know, I'm not there so maybe they didn't

1:13:03

stand beside you but the statements seem like they did.

1:13:07

Have people been, have

1:13:09

you had the allies

1:13:11

you expected to have? Are there

1:13:14

people who have been quiet, behind,

1:13:16

publicly, behind the scenes on your side? I ask

1:13:19

because, you know, one of the things that I've seen

1:13:21

in the past couple

1:13:23

of years for sure is we do policy work around

1:13:25

the country. I

1:13:28

see local elected officials not actually defend

1:13:30

the police in private anymore. They're sort of like,

1:13:32

we know. They're like, okay, it don't work. But publicly

1:13:34

they are very much in police

1:13:36

land. But privately in a way that was

1:13:39

not true five years ago. Privately they were like, we

1:13:41

on team police, publicly they were. But we've

1:13:43

been working on campaigns where they are like, DeRay, I

1:13:45

get it, but give me something else. And

1:13:48

that has been really interesting but I have been, I have

1:13:51

been looking for people that

1:13:54

I thought would be your natural allies, especially

1:13:56

in the, forget the police part, but on the referendum

1:13:58

part for sure, who would be like.

1:13:59

Like y'all can't just not engage

1:14:02

the figure.

1:14:03

Like that doesn't seem fair. So

1:14:05

I thought I'd ask.

1:14:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you

1:14:09

know, this referendum, I think

1:14:11

it has certainly, it was

1:14:15

built by,

1:14:16

you know, a

1:14:17

lot of everyday people and

1:14:19

a lot of organizations that have had

1:14:21

deep alliances where politically

1:14:24

we have a lot of shared values, abolitionists,

1:14:27

you know what I mean? We believe another world is possible.

1:14:30

All the things

1:14:31

committed to protracted struggle. And

1:14:34

I think that it

1:14:36

took a while for some people to come around.

1:14:39

It really did. And I think one,

1:14:41

because

1:14:41

this has been historic. Like it

1:14:44

has not been done before in the city. And

1:14:47

I think that we're in a city like Atlanta,

1:14:50

where the Atlanta way, this weird

1:14:52

relationship between

1:14:55

the Buckhead elites,

1:14:57

the corporate elites

1:14:58

and black

1:15:01

leadership

1:15:01

and the elites that come from that have

1:15:04

this table in which they

1:15:06

make decisions over our lives. And

1:15:12

many people saw that to engage

1:15:14

in a referendum site, a referendum site is undermining

1:15:17

the black leadership in this city. And

1:15:22

so it was hard for some people to

1:15:23

publicly come out and

1:15:25

support. I didn't even hear that. That's wow.

1:15:27

Oh yeah. Quite a framing.

1:15:29

Oh yeah. And so

1:15:31

I think that, you

1:15:34

know, when we begin to, when

1:15:37

people begin to see that we,

1:15:39

not only we're going to gather the petitions,

1:15:41

but we want to challenge them to broaden

1:15:44

the scope of who could sign, we

1:15:46

got more allies. We got more people saying,

1:15:49

hey, y'all right. This is a violation

1:15:51

of people's first amendment when

1:15:53

the city wouldn't be

1:15:56

transparent about their process and

1:15:58

wouldn't tell us what were.

1:15:59

the administrative protocols. We

1:16:02

literally have gone through this process

1:16:05

asking them directly, asking media

1:16:07

to challenge them, tell us what we should

1:16:09

expect, even down to

1:16:11

how many petitions

1:16:13

verified.

1:16:14

We're all on the same page.

1:16:17

We'd had people, and

1:16:18

I wouldn't want to betray their newly

1:16:20

found trust, that

1:16:22

were making calls on our behalf, that

1:16:25

was calling up

1:16:26

Mayor

1:16:28

Dickens and other council members to

1:16:30

say, y'all better get this right. And I

1:16:32

think the signature match, once

1:16:35

that came out publicly, that they were going to use

1:16:37

that as a way to verify

1:16:40

the signatures. All of these voter

1:16:42

rights organizations in this state

1:16:44

and in this city, you

1:16:47

know, felt betrayed by folks

1:16:49

who they have, you

1:16:50

know, use their resources, their power,

1:16:53

their labor to get in office and

1:16:55

to challenge practices that have been

1:16:57

used by the GOP and the right-wing

1:16:59

Republicans, and

1:17:01

to now see

1:17:03

our people, quote unquote, try

1:17:06

to initiate those same practices, I

1:17:09

think, through everybody, through everybody.

1:17:12

And many calls are being made on our behalf.

1:17:15

And, you know, I would be remiss if I

1:17:17

didn't name some of the organizations

1:17:18

that have been ten toes

1:17:20

down in this publicly, right? You have

1:17:23

Song Power, you have the

1:17:25

Working Families Party, the community movement

1:17:27

builders, CASA, the Center

1:17:29

for Popular Democracy, which

1:17:31

CASA is an affiliate, the Movement for Black

1:17:34

Lives, the Black Male Initiative,

1:17:36

Project South, the Georgia Latino

1:17:38

Alliance for Human Rights, Black

1:17:41

Voters Matter, the King Center, Bernice

1:17:43

King has shared

1:17:45

many statements making

1:17:47

sure that democracy

1:17:49

is being upheld. And so,

1:17:51

and we continue to see

1:17:54

daily different state

1:17:56

representatives

1:17:56

call them out and

1:17:58

demand them.

1:17:59

And that we practice the democracy

1:18:02

that we say that we

1:18:04

are stewards of in

1:18:07

this broad red state.

1:18:09

We're supposed to

1:18:10

be the bastion of democracy. And it's

1:18:12

been very disappointing for a lot of people to see

1:18:15

this city be willing to throw

1:18:18

that into the hands of the GOP to

1:18:20

advance corporate interest.

1:18:25

Are there any local officials

1:18:27

who are standing publicly alongside you?

1:18:30

Is the council unanimous in their opposition?

1:18:32

The mayor

1:18:33

clearly is now on your side. Is there

1:18:35

a comptroller? I don't know. Is

1:18:37

there anybody who has been willing to

1:18:40

stand publicly beside you who's elected?

1:18:43

You know, there is one

1:18:45

councilperson, Liliana, who, and,

1:18:49

you know, all of them have

1:18:51

had their moments

1:18:52

of when they have

1:18:53

diverted from the

1:18:56

support mission. But

1:18:58

she was, I was one of the first, I

1:19:00

was the first person to sign the petition and she

1:19:02

happened to be in the hallway. And we

1:19:04

said, hey, go ask her, she'll

1:19:06

sign. And I believe she was maybe the second

1:19:08

or third person to sign the petition. And

1:19:14

other than Liliana,

1:19:16

I would say

1:19:18

that she has been the most outwardly consistent

1:19:21

in terms of her

1:19:23

support. We

1:19:26

are hoping that that support not just

1:19:28

materializes and tweets and

1:19:30

tweets and public statements, but

1:19:32

it actually, you know, we hope

1:19:34

that it materializes

1:19:36

where she actually puts

1:19:39

forces to city council to

1:19:42

make sure this gets on the ballot and uses

1:19:44

the power that she has to

1:19:46

do that.

1:19:50

I mean, tell us what comes next. The

1:19:52

referendum, you filed the signatures. They've

1:19:55

been playing with it. What

1:19:58

is, what can we expect next? And then.

1:19:59

I'd love to know what can people do to

1:20:02

support?

1:20:03

Yeah, yeah. So, you

1:20:05

know, this movement to

1:20:08

stop cops city is broad and big,

1:20:10

and it has been decentralized, and

1:20:12

there are all matter of formations

1:20:15

who are against

1:20:16

this and fighting

1:20:17

against

1:20:20

it. And so we will continue

1:20:22

to see people engage

1:20:24

in nonviolent direct action. We

1:20:27

will continue to pressure city council

1:20:30

to move forward with the verification

1:20:32

process. There are some legal battles

1:20:35

that we know are coming our way

1:20:37

because the city wants to try to stop this.

1:20:39

And we know that they

1:20:43

perhaps may find favor in the courts, because

1:20:45

as we can see in Georgia, the

1:20:48

courts have chosen

1:20:50

a side. And I'm referring

1:20:53

to the recent RICO charges

1:20:55

that 61 people

1:20:57

got the other

1:20:59

week.

1:21:01

So there's some legal battles that'll be there.

1:21:04

But we'll continue to mobilize

1:21:07

people

1:21:07

to put pressure on council

1:21:09

to call upon our allies, both locally,

1:21:12

statewide and nationally, internationally,

1:21:15

because we want to make sure that Atlanta see

1:21:17

the world is watching. And you can't

1:21:19

just betray everyday people who

1:21:22

got you into office when we say

1:21:24

we want to vote on a thing. And we

1:21:26

don't believe that you are representing

1:21:29

our interest. We have the

1:21:31

right to

1:21:33

engage in a referendum and

1:21:36

to engage in direct democracy.

1:21:37

And so we hope that folks

1:21:39

that are listening would continue

1:21:41

to send resources to amplify

1:21:44

the stories

1:21:45

that are coming out of COP City. Follow

1:21:48

any of the organizations that I named, if

1:21:50

you want

1:21:51

the real and honest truth about what is happening.

1:21:54

The AJC, the Atlanta

1:21:56

Journal-Constitutional, cannot be trusted,

1:21:58

given,

1:21:59

though they do come. cover the fight. They

1:22:01

are also owned by Cox Media, who gives

1:22:03

a great deal of money to this effort. And

1:22:06

they are the biggest newspaper. Is that agency

1:22:08

of the newspaper? Oh, yeah. And

1:22:11

there is a call to action. There

1:22:14

is a formation

1:22:15

of people that is calling for

1:22:17

a mass mobilization to

1:22:20

happen November 10th

1:22:22

through the 13th here in Atlanta in

1:22:25

order

1:22:25

to stop the construction. And

1:22:28

so as

1:22:30

we also see how this turns out with the referendum,

1:22:33

we hopefully will phase

1:22:36

into a Get Out the Vote campaign. And

1:22:39

so for anybody who is interested in volunteering,

1:22:41

if you came down for

1:22:42

Warnock, Ossoff, Stacey Abrams,

1:22:45

come on down for us too, beloveds. So

1:22:47

there is much work to be done.

1:22:48

And we love an outside

1:22:51

agitator,

1:22:52

contrary to what the city will say.

1:22:55

And what is the website or where do people

1:22:58

go? Is it Facebook? Is it Twitter? Is there a site? Like how

1:23:00

do you know, where should people go

1:23:02

to say, plug in?

1:23:04

Yes, folks can follow Top

1:23:07

City Vote

1:23:10

on Instagram, on Twitter. Folks,

1:23:13

I would also again, encourage people to follow

1:23:15

the Atlanta

1:23:16

Press Collective, follow

1:23:18

them on Twitter with some

1:23:21

of the best reporting that

1:23:23

we have locally. That's telling the truth

1:23:25

about all the things. And you know, if you

1:23:27

follow the hashtag on any social

1:23:30

media platform, hashtag

1:23:32

Stop Top City, you'll get a broad scope

1:23:34

of all the moving parts

1:23:37

that is advancing this fight.

1:23:39

And can people follow you?

1:23:41

Oh, yeah, you can follow me too. I

1:23:44

repose with everybody else. But yes, I'm

1:23:46

not hard to find Mary Hooks, Mary

1:23:49

Hooks on all social media. And

1:23:51

I will also encourage people to give

1:23:53

if you can to the Atlanta Solidarity

1:23:55

Fund and their

1:23:57

website, you can Google them, Atlanta Solidarity Fund.

1:23:59

because again,

1:24:02

Comrades are 61 folks have are

1:24:04

facing RICO charges, 48 or

1:24:06

so are facing domestic terrorism

1:24:08

charges. And so we want to make sure that we have any

1:24:10

lawyers out there who

1:24:14

want to, who want to link up

1:24:16

and help provide some support. There's

1:24:18

been some financial resources for lawyers

1:24:20

who can also help take on some of these cases

1:24:22

and folks to reach out to the

1:24:25

Southern Center for Human Rights, S-C-H-R, Southern

1:24:28

Center for Human Rights to get more involved if

1:24:32

you have some legal expertise to offer. Okay, let me

1:24:34

back up.

1:24:35

Just a minute. You talked about the RICO charges. Can you

1:24:37

help people understand why they are a challenge? Like

1:24:40

why is that a, why did they not commit

1:24:42

a crime that is where they're RICO charges for people who

1:24:45

have not read about this and not

1:24:47

seen it. How would you

1:24:49

explain the issue there?

1:24:51

Yeah. So

1:24:53

a

1:24:55

few weeks before protesters

1:24:58

were hit with RICO charges, the

1:25:00

same panel of jurors indicted

1:25:03

Trump

1:25:03

on RICO charges for undermining

1:25:06

democracy. And this same

1:25:08

panel indicted

1:25:10

these 61 protesters for trying to advance

1:25:13

democracy. What

1:25:16

a wild world we're in right now. And

1:25:19

some of the charges, if you read

1:25:21

the indictment, it says

1:25:23

that folks were, one, three people were charged

1:25:25

because

1:25:27

they were fliering. They were

1:25:30

literally passing out fliers that

1:25:32

had the name of the officer who motored Torquita.

1:25:36

Some were the

1:25:38

Atlanta bail fund. They have

1:25:40

been indicted because,

1:25:42

or charged with RICO because of they

1:25:45

were paying bail. You

1:25:47

have folks, some of the claims saying like

1:25:49

they're doing mutual

1:25:52

aid, which many people do. Churches

1:25:55

do mutual aid. And

1:25:56

so there's even a journalist who was literally

1:25:58

just doing what

1:26:00

journalists do, who's also

1:26:03

being pulled into

1:26:03

the RICO charges. And so

1:26:06

everyday things that people are doing

1:26:08

to advance democracy, to

1:26:11

exercise our freedom of speech, to

1:26:13

take care of one

1:26:14

another, as we know our

1:26:16

social safety net has been cut and

1:26:19

our money is given to police. And

1:26:22

as we're trying to literally engage in

1:26:24

survival programs, this is what they are

1:26:27

considering and calling RICO. And

1:26:29

so to your initial question, have they done

1:26:31

anything that you would, no they have not,

1:26:34

no they have not. And I hope that history

1:26:36

will call them heroes and

1:26:39

bearers of the truth and justice.

1:26:43

Last few questions, a question you ask everybody.

1:26:46

The first is, what's

1:26:48

a piece of advice that you've gotten over the years

1:26:50

that stuck with you?

1:26:54

I would

1:26:57

say

1:26:59

that this movement has hands

1:27:01

large enough to hold all of us,

1:27:03

real talk. And you may not be

1:27:05

the person that has to shut down the

1:27:07

highway, but you could certainly be the person

1:27:10

who watches the babies, who pays

1:27:12

the membership due, that makes

1:27:15

the posters, the press

1:27:17

release, like everyone

1:27:20

has something meaningful to contribute

1:27:23

to this liberation struggle. And

1:27:26

everyone should find an organization and

1:27:29

play their part, find a role,

1:27:31

get an assignment and make a meaningful

1:27:33

contribution.

1:27:37

And the second question is, there

1:27:39

are a lot of people whose hope has been challenged

1:27:41

in the past 10 years, who,

1:27:44

you know, they were in the street like you,

1:27:46

like me, they voted, they testified,

1:27:49

they called their grandma

1:27:51

and let her know what was going on. And they would look

1:27:53

up and say, I don't know if anything's changed.

1:27:57

What would you say to the people whose hope is challenged?

1:28:00

in moments like this?

1:28:01

Yeah, yeah, I would say

1:28:03

that there's two things I want to say. As

1:28:07

Miriam Kaba reminds us that hope

1:28:10

is a discipline.

1:28:11

Hope is a discipline. And when our,

1:28:13

and in our current moment, when you look

1:28:16

around and you can't find much to have a lot of

1:28:18

hope around for those who feel that way,

1:28:20

then one can look back at history

1:28:23

and

1:28:23

be inspired for folks,

1:28:25

by folks, our ancestors, and

1:28:28

other folks who have taken on

1:28:29

righteous fights, whose

1:28:32

conditions, some may say, were

1:28:34

worse than ours,

1:28:35

you know, and who were able to

1:28:37

keep hope

1:28:38

alive, you know, who were able

1:28:40

to keep hope alive

1:28:41

in the worst of conditions. So if you can't

1:28:43

find it in the present, allow

1:28:46

history to give you the hope that you need. And

1:28:48

then I would also say that, you know, part

1:28:51

of being inside of this

1:28:52

work, you know, initially,

1:28:54

oftentimes when people come into this work,

1:28:56

especially

1:28:56

if they come in during an

1:28:58

uprising or protest moment, that,

1:29:01

you know, it's all passion. And it's like,

1:29:04

I got passion, and I did something,

1:29:06

I went to the protest.

1:29:08

But you have to stay in it, because those

1:29:11

two things ain't enough, right? And

1:29:13

you have to stay in it and mature, and

1:29:16

be able to understand tactics and timing

1:29:19

of tactics. And then, even

1:29:21

then, you have to keep that hope, because

1:29:23

then things will evolve when you begin to see,

1:29:25

okay, there's also a spiritual

1:29:27

element of this work, that

1:29:29

one has to begin to learn to embody for

1:29:31

themselves, that

1:29:33

allows you to move in that way, so

1:29:36

that the winds aren't just policy

1:29:38

and material winds, but it's also

1:29:40

the cultural hearts and minds work

1:29:43

that is

1:29:44

what oftentimes keeps me

1:29:46

hopeful and inspired when I see people

1:29:49

change and shift the way they thought about an issue,

1:29:51

or how they understood their life,

1:29:53

and all of those things. And so

1:29:55

I think that if you feel that way, it's

1:29:58

an indication that you must keep.

1:29:59

going. Harriet Tubman said

1:30:02

even if you

1:30:02

hear the dogs, if you, you know, see

1:30:04

the, see the torches, keep going

1:30:07

because on the other side of feeling

1:30:10

hopeless, there is much, much

1:30:12

to be inspired by. Well, we

1:30:14

can tell you your friend of the pie. Can't wait to have

1:30:16

you back. Learned a lot and

1:30:18

keep us posted on what

1:30:20

happened so that we can see the

1:30:23

other side of this.

1:30:24

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and

1:30:26

thank you for your listeners for

1:30:29

supporting these efforts. Atlanta

1:30:31

is just one place, but we are

1:30:33

very clear that Cop City will never be

1:30:36

built

1:30:36

here and we don't want Cop City anywhere.

1:30:38

So solidarity to those who are also

1:30:41

in struggle against,

1:30:45

even on a global

1:30:45

scale, against imperialism,

1:30:48

militarization, capitalism, and all those things.

1:30:51

And

1:30:51

let's get free. Y'all

1:30:52

let's get free. Well,

1:30:56

that's it. Thanks so much for tuning in to positive people

1:30:58

this week. Tell your friends to check it out

1:31:00

and make sure you rate it wherever you get your podcasts

1:31:02

for this Apple podcast or somewhere else. And

1:31:05

we'll see you next week. Positive people's production

1:31:07

of Quicken Media produced by AJ Moultrie

1:31:10

and mixed by Evan Pepp, executive produced

1:31:12

by me. Special thanks to our weekly contributors,

1:31:15

Hi Henderson, DR Balinger, and Miles Ejler.

1:31:27

Are you ready to be inspired? Tune into all new podcasts,

1:31:30

amplify color from the interval presents podcast

1:31:33

network and embark on an extraordinary journey through

1:31:35

untold stories of radio giants from

1:31:37

Charlamagne the God and Wendy Williams to Robin Quivers

1:31:40

and Big Boy. These names may be familiar,

1:31:42

but the tales of their trials and triumphs in the radio

1:31:44

industry may not be joined

1:31:46

host to Ryan Cameron and his empowering podcast

1:31:49

series as he dives into the lives of these radio

1:31:51

legends who defied odds overcame challenges

1:31:53

and made a timeless impact in the industry. Each

1:31:56

week amplify color chronicles

1:31:57

the vibrant history of black radio.

1:31:59

celebrating the trailblazers who paved the way for

1:32:02

the medium we know and love today. Don't

1:32:04

miss a single beat. Tune in every Wednesday

1:32:06

to hear the remarkable stories of the most beloved names

1:32:08

in Black Radio. You can find new episodes of Amplify

1:32:11

Color wherever you get your podcasts. Look

1:32:13

around. You can find cars like these on AutoTrader.

1:32:16

Like that car riding your tails. Or

1:32:18

if you're tailgating right now, all those cars

1:32:21

doubling as kitchens and living rooms are on AutoTrader

1:32:23

too. Are you working out and listening to

1:32:25

this ad at the same time? Well, multitasking

1:32:28

pro. Cars like the ones in the gym parking

1:32:30

lot are for sale on AutoTrader. New

1:32:32

cars, used cars, electric

1:32:34

cars, maybe even flying cars. Okay,

1:32:37

no flying cars, but as soon as they get invented,

1:32:39

they'll be on AutoTrader.

1:32:41

Just you wait.

1:32:42

AutoTrader.

1:32:44

Welcome back to our studio where we

1:32:46

have a special guest with us today, Toucan

1:32:49

Sam from Fruit Loops. Toucan Sam,

1:32:51

welcome. It's my pleasure to be here.

1:32:54

Oh, and it's Fruit Loops. Just

1:32:57

so you know.

1:32:58

Uh, fruit. Fruit. Yeah,

1:33:01

fruit. No, it's Fruuuuoot

1:33:04

Loops. The same way you say, Stuuuuuudeo.

1:33:09

That's not how we say it.

1:33:11

Fruit Loops finds

1:33:13

the loopy

1:33:13

sides.