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3, 2024. Learn more at breezeline.com. Learn

1:01

more at breezeline.com. Welcome

1:13

to Pod Save the World. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes.

1:16

Ben, have you ever fallen asleep

1:18

while being prosecuted, like Donald

1:20

Trump did? That suggests

1:22

a level of comfort with the process that I don't

1:24

think I could muster. Yeah,

1:28

I've gotten a little fatigued during jury duty,

1:30

but I was never the defendant

1:33

in question. No, me either. Does

1:35

sound like maybe you'd be boring in the jury

1:37

selection process. Voila dear, as they said. Voila dear.

1:40

Did you see the Curb Your Enthusiasm, where Larry David

1:43

is just striking people in the jury pool then? No.

1:46

He's like, number 20. He looks like a Fox News viewer.

1:48

Get him out of here. Really? I

1:50

got to catch up on a lot of Curb, including this

1:52

season, by the way. Speaking of

1:55

award-winning shows, though, Ben, we

1:57

love doing this show. We love our audience. We

1:59

want more people to see it. find the show and listen to it.

2:01

One way to help that happen is vote

2:04

for us to win a Webby Award for

2:06

Best News in Politics Podcast. Voting closes on

2:08

April 18th, so you don't have a lot

2:10

of time. But if you go to vote.webbyawards.com,

2:13

search for Crooked Media, and you can vote

2:15

for us, and you can vote for some

2:17

of Crooked Media's fun social shows. So do

2:19

that. Yeah. I mean, we

2:21

are in heavy Webby season. We're begging.

2:23

It's quite like Oscar season. We

2:26

need your vote. We

2:28

want your vote. And I have

2:31

a plug, Tommy. I always forget to plug things. What do

2:33

you got? I'm going to be in DC

2:35

next week. For White House Correspondents?

2:38

No. Oh, no, that's later. No, for

2:40

Georgetown Global Dialogues, actually. Oh, even the real

2:42

events of the year. The real nerd problem.

2:44

So if you are at WorldO in DC,

2:46

and I know you're out there, WorldO's in

2:48

DC, at 2 o'clock on

2:50

April 22nd, I will

2:52

be at Georgetown, speaking

2:54

about foreign policy and the US

2:57

election, with a pretty

2:59

cool panel. So come check me out. Cool. All

3:01

right. We got a great

3:03

show today, then. We're going to cover this

3:05

massive Iranian attack on Israel from over the

3:07

weekend, what it means for the war in

3:09

Gaza and supplemental funding bills in DC for

3:11

a whole host of things, including Israel and

3:14

Ukraine. We're also going to talk

3:16

about why Ukraine was frustrated by the US

3:18

response to the attack on Israel, a

3:20

grim anniversary for Sudan, a violent attack on

3:22

women in Australia. The State Department spy is

3:24

sentenced, and then we'll have a little fun

3:26

at the end. And then you're going

3:29

to hear my interview with Khalid Al-Gendhi.

3:31

He is a senior fellow and director

3:33

of program on Palestine and the Palestinian-Israel

3:35

Affairs at the Middle East Institute. He's

3:37

a former advisor to the Palestinian side

3:39

at the Annapolis Talks. Super

3:42

thoughtful guy. And what we did was talk

3:44

about, okay, what happens when this war finally

3:46

ends and reconstruction begins

3:48

and we have to figure out the political

3:50

path forward for the Palestinians internally and also

3:53

for a broader Middle East peace process. Can't

3:55

wait to hear that. Important talk. Smart guy.

3:58

Such a thoughtful guy. Yeah. Do

4:01

you call it X? I refuse to not call it Twitter. I

4:04

don't think I've ever done it before. That's why I said

4:06

X. It's just such a lame name. Yeah, it is lame.

4:08

Why did he choose that? Okay, well,

4:10

let's start with this Iranian attack on Israel from

4:12

over the weekend. According to

4:14

the Pentagon, Iran fired 100 ballistic missiles,

4:17

30 cruise missiles, and 150

4:20

explosive drones at Israel on Saturday.

4:23

Ninety-nine percent of them were intercepted,

4:25

and miraculously no one was killed,

4:27

though a seven-year-old girl was seriously

4:29

wounded. A lot of the

4:31

missiles and drones were shot down by Israeli

4:33

missile defense systems like the Iron Dome, David's

4:35

Sling and the Arrow 3 system, which Ben,

4:37

you probably remember, received billions

4:39

of dollars of funding from the Obama

4:42

administration. For all the

4:44

attacks you hear about Obama abandoning Israel,

4:46

in fact, those investments saved countless Israeli

4:49

lives. In addition to those

4:51

systems, those missile defense systems, the Pentagon

4:53

says U.S. fighters shot down 70 drones

4:56

in U.S. warships and Patriot missile batteries in the

4:58

region, shot down about a half a dozen

5:00

Iranian missiles. Israel also

5:03

got support from the U.K., France, Jordan, Saudi

5:05

Arabia. This attack from Iran

5:07

was a long-awaited response to Israel's assassination

5:09

of several top members of

5:11

the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, IRGC, and

5:13

an Iranian diplomatic facility in Syria. According

5:16

to the Wall Street Journal, Iran actually

5:18

briefed several Gulf countries on

5:21

their attack plan days in advance. I

5:23

guess to de-conflict their airspace, but notable.

5:26

But that also gave Israel a lot of time to prepare, to

5:28

the point where President Biden was able to fly

5:30

back from Delaware to the White House to be

5:32

in the Situation Room for this all

5:35

to go down. So since the attack,

5:37

Biden has talked with Netanyahu. He did a call

5:39

with the G7 leaders. He called the King of

5:41

Jordan. He called the squadron leaders. This helped shoot

5:43

down all these drones. We're now

5:45

all waiting to see if Israel responds. Israel's

5:48

defense minister told Lloyd Austin, the secretary

5:50

of defense, that Israel has no

5:52

choice but to respond, according to news reports. Netanyahu

5:55

has reportedly requested a bunch of response

5:58

options from the IDF. The

6:01

fact that these Sunni Arab countries like

6:03

Saudi Arabia and Jordan were part of

6:05

a coalition defending Israel is fascinating to

6:07

me. I know they hate Iran and

6:09

have for a long time, but still

6:11

it's shocking that they defended Israel to

6:13

the point where these missiles were landing

6:15

on Jordanian soil and potentially wounding Jordanians.

6:18

But also we've seen that Biden's message

6:20

to Bibi Netanyahu is basically, take the

6:22

wind, don't escalate. It's not clear if

6:24

he's going to follow that advice, but

6:26

certainly they can turn the dial up or down if

6:28

they want. I suspect a cyber attack or a response

6:31

on Iranian proxies in Syria, for example,

6:33

might have a less inflammatory feel to

6:35

it, whereas a direct strike on Iran could cause

6:37

things to explode. But what are you looking for

6:39

and what did you make of that initial

6:42

volley on Saturday night? I know

6:44

we were texting back and forth like pretty scary five hours

6:46

to sit around and wait for those things to get

6:48

into Israeli airspace. Yeah. I

6:51

mean, it's a new ... A lot

6:53

of new things have happened since October 7th

6:55

and this is definitely a new dynamic

6:57

where Iran is signaling they're willing

6:59

to attack Israel from Iranian soil.

7:02

We talked about the fact that Israel

7:05

attacked the Iranian embassy compound

7:07

in Damascus, sovereign Iranian

7:09

territory. So that's the logic that the

7:11

Iranians used to justify this attack as

7:14

a reciprocal attack. It's

7:17

interesting to me. If

7:20

Iran truly wanted to escalate into a

7:22

war with Israel, they

7:24

did the opposite of that. They

7:27

didn't use the thousands of rockets that they've

7:30

provided to Hezbollah over the years that are

7:32

very close to Israel and would, I

7:34

think, be able to evade at least some of the

7:37

air defense systems. They announced

7:39

that they were doing this, briefed it.

7:42

And honestly, if you're trying to ... Whether

7:45

it's because of deliberate not

7:49

wanting to escalate further or whether they're

7:51

incompetent, whatever the reason is, Flying

7:54

drones for several hours over other countries

7:56

in the direction of a country that

7:58

you know has incredible. Which is good

8:00

in air defense systems. It is kind

8:02

of a strange way of going about

8:05

trying to actually land the a punch.

8:07

although they do believe the Ballistic Missile

8:09

Madison Things where I The Blitz album

8:11

the Cruise Missiles. You

8:13

know I think are intended to kind of send

8:15

a message. Look at this capability we have an

8:17

I. Part of what we learned is just how

8:20

good the artist and systems are that you're even

8:22

or on having his ballistic missiles is not any

8:24

guarantee that they can ah again land that. Was

8:28

him and a punch been hit only trivialize

8:30

when his anniversary situation saw that to say

8:32

that Iran was clue trying to calibrate in

8:34

the kind of weird signaling of the Middle

8:36

East where while we have to respond but

8:38

we we don't ask waited further they put

8:40

an ad stay been out like the you

8:43

point might and do runway tommy from the

8:45

Iranian represent of the you and it's immediate

8:47

is like okay we're done or governorship we

8:49

get it all very cool recall you know

8:51

like that and so the whole thing was

8:53

kind of strange in that. It. Was

8:56

a huge escalation it was yeah I've

8:58

seen outrageous thing for them to do.

9:00

Very dangerous for of Israeli people. Very

9:02

thankful that the rebels you down so

9:05

much this and also like very calibrate

9:07

of Iran to try to contain it's

9:09

own escalation in i'm so what happens

9:12

now. Well. You know

9:14

into kind of strange back and forth.

9:16

know had the balls and Israel's court

9:18

and I think it's worth saying like.

9:21

You. Don't need to swing at every

9:23

pitcher in our like that, there's

9:25

if they the options available to

9:27

them. The. Escalade tory option would be

9:30

to launch an attack at around in soil

9:32

you know. So if they choose the bomb

9:34

or any military facilities surly or any new

9:36

group so is anything in Iran then I

9:38

think Iran and the kind of crazy logic

9:40

of the Middle East would feel like then

9:42

they need to respond in a bigger way

9:45

than they did last time. And that's how

9:47

you keep the as question going. There are

9:49

other options available. One is no, not. Bombing.

9:52

Something and against the kids might make my

9:54

my kids born in kindergarten like you don't

9:56

always have to hit back in and talk

9:58

arm you can talk diplomacy. They work,

10:00

but even like a other, pathways

10:02

are available. You. Mentioned like

10:04

a cyber option something inside or on

10:07

is not that visible but also like

10:09

hitting these Iranian proxy forces and I

10:11

don't diminish. That. But

10:14

you have we seen Israel take strikes

10:16

against Iranian proxies in Lebanon and Syria.

10:18

and Iraq. So

10:20

there's different ways yards us already naval

10:22

assets for sanctions say it is all

10:24

kinds of things they can do. I'm

10:26

like what the from U qu it

10:28

does not want. His Israel to

10:31

hit Iran directly than or on sitting

10:33

back and this war could escalate to

10:35

Lebanon. Iraq across the region Us

10:37

to get pulled in a rocker shut

10:39

down near the Straits of Hormuz to

10:41

which massive amounts of the global com

10:43

me pass and all the sudden or

10:45

suits global economic shocks or prices to

10:48

the roof risks us are some results

10:50

what we don't wanna yeah I mean

10:52

look wouldn't when Trump ordered this as

10:54

nation of Qassem Suleimani than the head

10:56

of the as you see the Iranians

10:58

responded by firing over a dozen ballistic

11:00

missiles that Us forces a bases in

11:02

the region miraculously known was killed but

11:04

one hundred your service members. Got my

11:06

brain injuries but trump to his credit. Blasted.

11:09

They're like the A in that case to the Iranian

11:11

send a message saying like okay, this is if for

11:14

us we're done. Still like that weird kind of little

11:16

guy in the schoolyard the runs up to the big.

11:18

Bully and punched in the says look of heads over. yeah

11:20

yeah but are you know the fact of at a time

11:23

spent but I know. Stepping. Back Like

11:25

I'm I'm. Really? Glad the Us

11:27

did all this to call the Steps

11:29

to Protect Israeli civilians and then no

11:31

one was killed in the strikes. It

11:33

was very frustrating to me though To

11:36

mediate we watched the conversation about the

11:38

Iranian attack in Washington just completely emit

11:40

the fact that this was the Iranians

11:42

responding to Israel bombings the Iranian consulate

11:44

in Damascus. Like part the conversation to

11:47

beat don't do that you don't I

11:49

mean and like everyone a disease always

11:51

argument deterrence and what did entails but

11:53

they never pasa think I wonder if

11:55

starting. Wars is maybe not the best

11:57

way to prevent them, you know? Unless

12:00

you think I'm kind of exaggerating or

12:02

doing a straw man of republican, listen

12:05

to this kind of Ah Trump's former

12:07

National Security Advisor John Bolton, Sen Tom

12:09

Cotton and Congressmen Rich Mccormick from Georgia

12:11

from various Tv shows. The way to

12:14

reestablish deterrence is not proportional, less academic

12:16

top the way you established in turn

12:18

says by telling your adversary you ever

12:21

try that again, the price you will

12:23

pay will be so much higher. Than.

12:25

Any game you think you can get,

12:28

you shouldn't even think about. I

12:30

think Israel should be looking at this

12:32

as an opportunity to destroy Iran's nuclear

12:34

weapons program, which is the existential threat.

12:37

That. Israel faces present. Biden is wrong.

12:39

Tell his rail they should respond. Imagine

12:41

America getting three hundred drones and missiles

12:43

shot at our homeland and having a

12:46

country telling us not to respond. Now

12:48

it's up to Prime Minister Netanyahu and

12:50

Is war Tablet and ultimately be elected

12:52

government and people of Israel about how

12:54

and when they respond. It's hard to

12:57

imagine this doesn't steal their resolve to

12:59

finish the job against Hamas in Gaza.

13:01

There's no commensurate response, it supports our

13:03

still a ways and wars and it

13:05

quickly be drawn out to. Have bad

13:08

result was cook out there could be

13:10

going to produce drones with sick after

13:12

said body produces incomes and we'd undercut

13:14

the entire thera process around the world

13:16

would be the whose tastes? the Hamas,

13:18

Hezbollah, or Iran itself. Who who's a

13:20

good avoid the in the rich Mccormick.

13:22

I never heard of either, but apparently

13:24

all of them didn't know. but a

13:26

newspaper through the duration of the War

13:28

On Terror just confesses him or anyone

13:30

who looked at me a recent spend

13:32

just a minute on this because it's

13:34

totally crazy Ends yeah John Bolton know

13:36

like principal architect. Or one of the architects

13:38

of Iraq were really good track records and

13:40

actually bit of a tell that he's like

13:42

this is an opportunity for yes lucky literally

13:44

she's getting attacked as an opportunity yellow now

13:47

we get to bombed more things you know

13:49

and. Desert. Desert not inevitable.

13:51

Choices read like again to one

13:53

back the tape like. There.

13:55

Are consequences to pulling out of Iran

13:57

nuclear deal? There are consequences to assassinating.

14:00

So money their consequences, The bombing an Iranian

14:02

diplomatic so it's none of that means that

14:04

around are good guys are edits the with

14:06

sympathizing with Iranians. What we're saying is the

14:08

logic of like picking fights of people entering

14:10

of diplomatic agreements as you end up in

14:12

wars that that you don't always have you

14:14

the victim either. Yeah if story doesn't start

14:16

with you wanted to start insisting that wasn't

14:18

so crazy as it. The. Story Literally

14:20

for this whole thing started with Iranians

14:23

hack. We've been saying since October Seven

14:25

that. That there's a risk of escalation.

14:27

There's this increase since and across the region the

14:29

Middle East is it can be tinderbox so long

14:31

as as wars going on, Israel's policy in Gaza

14:34

that a lot of people machines and were upset

14:36

about like a week ago and now nobody's talking

14:38

about it which by the way is one of

14:40

the outcomes of Missy Between and Know is okay

14:42

with right at A at A that's and and

14:45

and so this is. An insane way

14:47

of thinking. And again I think.

14:49

Part. Of what strange to me Tommy to

14:51

bring politics and little bits is some of

14:53

this is they are John Bolton He believes

14:56

it's like you know he's a true believer

14:58

in. That the. Next wars, you

15:00

can be the one that turns out, well, you

15:02

know? Yeah, And the architect of the maximum pressure

15:04

strategy on Iran that we're supposed to prevent all

15:06

availed all these goons that we just heard from.

15:09

What criticize the Iran Nuclear Deal which was

15:11

working in terms of concerned ironically programs. And

15:14

then we tried their maximum trap pressure thing

15:16

for years and at it ends around firing

15:18

missiles that Israel and they're closer to getting

15:21

nukes. And they were ever before his

15:23

her prefer and had fired missiles at a

15:25

at Israel during the Iran Nuclear deal they

15:27

would have gone ballistics. Their policy failed right?

15:29

This is where their policy leads to work

15:32

in the politics of the singers. Some of

15:34

this is like the reflexive, like both I

15:36

look tough on or on that's got good

15:39

politics. Do they not learn anything

15:41

from Trump? Who has actually been pretty

15:43

good at trying going off of this

15:45

wing the Republican party and sing like

15:47

at Oregon North Sea notice And to

15:49

get I don't think that Trump's policies.

15:52

Actually reflect that cause some of

15:54

things heated contributed to the situation.

15:56

but I find Biden. I

15:58

wouldn't be afraid of this. I wouldn't either. Because

16:00

Americans don't want to go to war with Iran. They

16:03

don't want to be in a war with Iran. That

16:05

is very clear. Donald Trump understands that, right? Yeah. Which

16:08

is why he didn't respond to that ballistic missile

16:10

attack. And also globally, like you're hearing voices like

16:12

the comments like Tom Cotton and John Bolton in

16:15

Israel in their far right. You're also hearing them

16:17

in the far right in the US, but internationally,

16:19

like Rishi Sunak said to parliament, the prime minister

16:21

of the UK, we would urge them to take

16:23

a win at this point. It's

16:26

a good line. Yeah. And

16:28

they're saying, right, they blew up an embassy

16:30

and killed a bunch of RGC people, and

16:32

the Iranians fired a bunch of ducks and all got

16:34

shut down. So you know what? That's fine. Like,

16:37

just back off. Yeah. Macron, president

16:39

of France, saying we will do everything to avoid

16:41

a conflagration. That is to say an escalation. The

16:43

German foreign minister on a Beyerbach. The

16:46

right to self-defense means fending off an attack, she said.

16:49

Retaliation is not a category in international law. So

16:51

the entire world is saying, take

16:53

the win, cool your jets. We have these right-wing

16:56

zealots in the US and Israel demanding more and

16:58

more and more. One I don't ... And you

17:00

heard out of Israel, even from, not just

17:02

from Netanyahu or even the far right people,

17:05

but from, I think, Benny Gantz, like, well,

17:07

we have to respond. Why?

17:09

Like, I don't know why war,

17:13

like, war war is the answer to any

17:16

question in foreign policy. Like

17:19

Israel has deterrence. They have

17:21

nuclear weapons. They

17:23

have missile defenses. So

17:26

you don't have to, like, pick a war

17:28

to show that you'll be

17:30

able to fight back. I mean, it's just not ... The

17:32

logic is out of joint here. I

17:35

also wonder if this is

17:37

like the cat's out of the bag in

17:39

terms of Israeli politics, because they've been so

17:41

hawkish in their rhetoric about Iran

17:43

for years. The Israelis wake

17:45

up and read in the newspaper about

17:47

covert efforts to kill Iranian scientists and

17:49

to take out their computer systems and

17:51

centrifuges and things. So now it's like

17:53

you're hearing a lot of Israeli voices

17:55

on the street who blame Iran for

17:57

what Hamas did on October 7th. and

18:00

they're demanding retribution and vengeance in a lot of

18:02

ways. Part of that is an understandable feeling, but

18:04

it doesn't make it a smart policy. Yeah, yeah.

18:06

You don't act on every feeling. No, you do

18:08

not. But as you mentioned, the war in Gaza

18:11

is so raging. More aid may

18:13

be getting into Gaza, but it's still insufficient. And

18:15

Israeli protesters are still regularly blocking aid trucks

18:18

from getting into Gaza for hours and hours

18:20

at a time. We reached out

18:22

to Melanie Ward, the CEO of an

18:24

organization called Medical Aid for Palestinians, about

18:26

her recent trip to Gaza. She was

18:28

just there. Here is some of

18:31

what she said about the aid process and what's getting

18:33

in. When I was on the

18:35

way, actually on the

18:37

way back from Gaza, I saw

18:39

some of the items that have

18:41

been rejected by Israeli security, some

18:43

of the humanitarian items. This

18:46

included a whole lot of different kinds

18:48

of medical equipment, such as

18:50

an anesthesia machine, an

18:53

x-ray machine. It included first aid

18:55

kits, bleach. It

18:57

included a box of wooden crutches, a wheelchair.

19:01

It included solar lamps and generators, which

19:03

you need when there is

19:05

no electricity and when people are displaced

19:07

and taking shelter under

19:10

pieces of plastic on the ground. You

19:13

need these things when everything

19:15

is in such a desperate state. I

19:19

also saw there sleeping bags, which

19:21

had been rejected. They were rejected,

19:23

apparently, because they were green. Green

19:26

is supposedly a military color. I

19:29

don't know what kind of system stops

19:31

displaced people from having access to a sleeping bag

19:33

because it's the wrong color. But

19:36

it's horrifying, and this is where we are. And for

19:38

all the talk, the situation on

19:40

the ground remains disastrous. Melanie

19:42

also told us she is someone who reads

19:45

the news about what's happening in Gaza all

19:47

day every day. She's in touch with her

19:49

staff on the ground all day every day.

19:51

She knows all the statistics, has read all

19:53

the stories, but nothing, she said, can prepare

19:55

you for actually seeing what it's like on

19:57

the ground. The humanitarian situation is

19:59

intolerable. Yeah, and this is no

20:01

justification. Them in Israel, a pre October

20:03

seventh, and in their blockade of Gaza

20:05

for noom. And

20:07

fifteen plus years now they claimed that they

20:09

restrict stuff from getting in that has a

20:12

dual use purposes of these for military purposes.

20:14

What? There. Was no military purpose

20:16

for a sleeping bag or some

20:18

crutches or anesthesia. like just think

20:21

of the how how sick it

20:23

is. To not allow anesthetic

20:25

to get him he like just so

20:28

What? People can feel more pain Or

20:30

to not allow crutches and and then

20:32

what? What is the logic? What is

20:34

the mindset? Of whoever is making

20:37

that decision because it's it's fucked up

20:39

Yeah see n And as David know

20:41

up and said us this is an

20:43

international legal requirement. it's not a favor

20:45

if to let medical equipment and it

20:47

is. A legal obligation under

20:49

international law to allow that kind

20:52

assistance again. And and and despite

20:54

know the promises that came out

20:56

of that phone call with Net

20:58

Now Biden Kuwait, they're still these

21:00

problems. Are. Were dame and is a

21:02

great reporter for Cnn. Read a first person

21:04

account of her recent visit the Gaza and

21:06

she talked about interviewing a doctor who told

21:08

her a story about I think was a

21:11

ten year old boy who died on the

21:13

operating table having his leg amputated without anesthesia.

21:15

Notice is such horrific pain that he just

21:17

died and there's this is in. We've talked

21:19

about this Tommy but. International.

21:22

Journalists of knock on in their Paulson journalists.

21:24

You've done a lot to bring this to

21:26

Pero house us through social media or any

21:28

lot of and I'm fine. lot of died

21:31

I just think it's probably again worse anybody

21:33

can imagine once people get in there and

21:35

like we said the body counts probably worse

21:37

because people are under the rubble and I

21:39

think that the backdrop of this around exchanges.

21:42

Did. There's no end in sight to the

21:44

weren't as right in I'm I'm A. I

21:46

think it's we all this kind of been

21:48

this assumption at some point they'll be a

21:50

ceasefire, they'll be a deal for hostages. Well

21:52

that the the combination of you know. I'm

21:56

Os has been intransigent, Israel

21:58

know killed. The children and grandchildren

22:01

of one of the Hamas leaders in negotiating

22:03

with. So. That guys probably not.

22:05

Little more on a killer Mike

22:07

Duggan Mary I'm the Iranians attacking

22:09

his back and forth pry hardens

22:12

attitudes in Israel generally. Because

22:15

there's they have to draw linkage

22:17

between you know, a Hamas and

22:20

Iran as a finance or for

22:22

Masts. There. Remain

22:24

committed to this Roth operation and so

22:26

I think we have to adjust our

22:28

thinking to the reality that it's possible

22:30

that this war goes to the summer.

22:32

Yeah, that does not necessarily. Like some

22:34

know, we're not on the precipice of

22:36

a sea sauce in. On top of

22:39

that means reports today that Israel assassinated

22:41

a senior Hezbollah commander in a strike

22:43

in Southern Lebanon and and Hezbollah is

22:45

firing rockets in response to again like.

22:47

The. The lid could pop off that

22:49

There's violent clashes in the West Bank.

22:51

Them steadily increasing are dozens of Israelis

22:53

and Palestinians were hurt over the weekend

22:56

in fighting after a missing fourteen year

22:58

old Israeli boy was found dead or

23:00

in Israeli settlers shot and killed two

23:02

Palestinians in the West Bank on Monday

23:04

alone. The point is that the wars

23:06

that over it's not getting better. Every

23:08

day the risk of escalation increases. But

23:10

to your point, I mean this Iran

23:12

strike or attack on Israel seems to

23:14

have stalled any momentum behind conditions Us

23:16

Aid are using. Us leverage to

23:19

help and the war. Instead, we have

23:21

Congress rushing more military funding Israel. So

23:23

Speaker Johnson wants to call votes on

23:25

a whole bunch a new supplemental funny

23:28

bills. According to document obtained by Pbs

23:30

newshour, he wants a vote on one

23:32

dell the provides forty billion dollars for

23:35

Ukraine, another to provide fourteen billion for

23:37

Israel with no conditioning on that assistance.

23:39

Two point four billion for Red Sea

23:41

operations which I assume is like counter

23:44

who see Strike Down and probably just

23:46

of the additional cost. Of having the

23:48

Us military right, mustard and carriers and

23:50

others are just another bill or two.

23:52

maybe for like six billion dollars for

23:54

Indo Pacific stuff is in Taiwan. Money

23:56

in their yeah, they're down democrats want

23:58

a vote on Sunday and we've nine

24:01

billion and humanitarian aid to Gaza As

24:03

the others who would support that dumb

24:05

idea vote on a dance for.tick tock.

24:07

so very confusing some to also not

24:09

we're a Frankenstein here and not clear

24:11

speaker Johnson is gonna survive the to

24:13

get to a vote. Speaking of frankenstein

24:15

is he is right wingers like Marjorie

24:17

Taylor greens his tenacity both threatening to

24:19

oust him to the motion to vacate

24:21

process South Bend. I mean I guess

24:23

Seven back me. How worried are you.

24:25

The. Gaza could become an afterthought

24:27

in Washington in particular as everyone

24:30

focuses on Iran. and like again,

24:32

am I a paranoid freak to

24:34

wonder if. Part. Of Netanyahu's plan

24:36

all along was to take that strike in

24:39

Damascus, take out my or does he John

24:41

Alden I used he could make this in

24:43

Iran, Israel I gotta say that.has been fun

24:45

and of my mind for a few weeks

24:47

now. you know cause he had to know.

24:51

If. You Bama Arabian Embassy that they're

24:53

gonna do something. Response: I mean, he

24:55

may not have known that they launched,

24:58

you know, hundreds of drones and missiles

25:00

in Israel, but he'd much rather the

25:02

focus be on Iran in Washington year

25:04

than on Israel's Operation Gaza. And against

25:07

it really is absurd to me that.

25:09

You. Know. When. Jose Andreas as mad

25:12

as a people mustn't in this sub may

25:14

want to condition aid and then of a

25:16

week later it's like that's just memory holds

25:18

you a in and the realities even if

25:20

you're taking the position that. But.

25:22

We don't wanna it would withdraw

25:25

a military assistance Israel. In

25:27

the wake of this attacks one of the

25:29

things it's been. On. The table for

25:32

a long time is. Suspending.

25:34

The door if offensive weapons rates

25:36

so you could maybe keep providing

25:38

Iron Dome support missile defense support.

25:40

Purely defensive weapons, but you don't

25:42

need to give Israel in two

25:44

thousand pound bomb. To. Defend

25:46

itself against Iran like that's. Being.

25:49

That's assistance to be used in and often

25:51

smelter operations in Gaza, the kind of thing

25:54

that is. Causing. All the civilian

25:56

casualties, so there's just no logic to.

25:58

To. The shift, Other that. The. The

26:01

political conversation changed to Iran. It's also

26:03

the says something pretty weird about the

26:06

United States as a country and again

26:08

this is on the Republicans, not not.

26:10

despite his non on Joe Biden did

26:13

like. Well we'll sit for

26:15

months on our hands. In.

26:17

Terms of providing support to a

26:19

country? Ukraine defending itself You know,

26:21

but you know woeful rush this

26:23

assistance out the door to Israel

26:26

as they're carrying out to and

26:28

around open ended thing is in

26:30

Gaza like a just. An

26:32

hour did none. Nobody comes as look grist.

26:34

now we only get the Ukraine and

26:36

once I get a but one last thing

26:39

on on Israel bomb and we haven't talked

26:41

about him much on the show because

26:43

is mostly to send anti vaccine cranks. but

26:45

if you guys have liberal or left

26:47

his friends for into a rubber of can

26:50

be juniors campaign for some reason just make

26:52

sure. They. Searched his views on

26:54

Gaza because he is far more hawkish

26:56

than Joe Biden He: these are some

26:58

quotes. so rubber. If our kids Jr

27:01

said that Israel quotes does not have

27:03

any choice except to eradicate a mosque,

27:05

he denied that there was a siege

27:07

on the civilian population Gaza even after

27:09

the Israeli government announced it. Ah, he

27:11

said. Quote: The Palestinian people are arguably

27:13

the most pampered people by international aid

27:15

organizations in the history of the world.

27:18

That's a direct quote I transcribed the

27:20

myself. Ah, He opposes even a temporary

27:22

ceasefire in. Gaza or in Twenty Twenty

27:24

three. He said he opposed Biden getting

27:26

back into the Iran Nuclear Agreement. any

27:29

regurgitated, all the Trump blinds about like

27:31

how the cast type stuff even though

27:33

he supported the deal. Back and Twenty

27:36

Six seats who? This guy is just

27:38

like a political hack who is apparently

27:40

super hawkish on foreign policy in willing

27:43

to call the Palestinian people who have

27:45

been. In. A dire humanitarian

27:47

situation for sixteen years now.

27:49

pampered, Yeah.

27:51

I mean that the mit the core points

27:53

you make is it like we're gonna have

27:56

a competition serve next few months about people

27:58

who are like maybe. Satisfied,

28:00

Angry. About Bidens Gaza

28:02

policy in and therefore when a vote

28:04

for somebody else. I. Mean

28:06

I think as a lot of reasons why him and ambulance to

28:09

back as as if you and I've had a lot of problems

28:11

with by policy but I. Frankly, Think that.

28:14

That's a. Bad. Idea get enough to

28:16

educate yourself on the other obvious silica the

28:18

other gives you an election is about choices,

28:20

right? and. And this guy's not

28:23

like a different options I will say interestingly.

28:25

I. Wonder how much his views on

28:28

this are in the doesn't justify.

28:30

The. View. But. No. A

28:32

Palestinian. Assassinated his

28:35

father right? So know that the and I'm

28:37

the I don't know anything but I'm very

28:39

for animal goes on an arcade Jr said

28:41

see how lucky I am Yeah you guys

28:43

out enough speakers. What's weird is he's the

28:46

only common threads. I've heard him give interviews

28:48

about foreign policy in. The only common thread

28:50

is. Kind. Of Can is same

28:52

thing. it's a conspiracy theories dance and

28:54

sometimes it's like. So. Far less

28:56

you can see had some and thus far right you can see

28:58

it like this is not the guy you and had. One

29:01

serve. you know node to know too

29:03

quick things were going to break one.

29:05

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pans at made-in-cookware.com. So

33:01

let's get to your Ukraine point because

33:03

the fact that the US

33:06

and other Western allies directly interviewed to

33:08

intercept these attacks on Israel but did

33:10

not do that for Ukraine has not

33:12

been lost on President Zelensky. He

33:14

tweeted a long message that said in part and these are quotes,

33:16

The entire world witnessed allied action in the

33:19

skies above Israel and neighboring countries. It demonstrated

33:21

how truly effective unity and defending against terror

33:23

can be when it is based on sufficient

33:25

political will. Israel is not a

33:27

NATO member so no action such as

33:29

triggering article 5 was required. European skies

33:31

could have received the same level of

33:34

protection long ago if Ukraine had received

33:36

similar full support from its partners in

33:38

intercepting drones and missiles. Terror must be

33:40

defeated completely and everywhere, not more in

33:42

some places and less in others. So

33:46

Ben, Ukraine's permanent representative to the UN

33:48

said that Russia has fired a thousand

33:50

missiles, 2,800 drones and 7,000

33:53

guided aerial bombs at Ukraine since the

33:55

start of the war. According

33:57

to a report in Politico, Ukraine's success

33:59

rate in shooting down Russian missiles and drones

34:01

has gone from 90% to 46% more recently. They're

34:05

just like running out of interceptors. The

34:07

Washington Post reported that back in

34:09

February, Vice President Kamala Harris told

34:12

Zelensky to stop attacking Russian oil

34:14

infrastructure because the Biden administration was

34:16

worried it would jack up global

34:18

energy prices. The Post said that

34:20

message did not go over well and Ukraine instead

34:23

doubled down on those attacks. So

34:25

Ben, Zelensky's anger here, totally

34:27

understandable. It's also a

34:29

fact that Russia has nukes that can hit the

34:31

US, so the context is different. Iran does not,

34:33

which by the way is why the JCPOA was

34:35

a good idea for then Iran getting a nuclear

34:37

weapon. But what do you make of the argument

34:39

from Zelensky here? And do you think it's likely

34:41

to prod countries to do more to support him?

34:44

Or are you hearing anything out of Washington that

34:46

gives you hope that supplemental funding bill for Ukraine

34:48

might pass? I think that,

34:50

you know, I am

34:52

entirely sympathetic to Zelensky here. I

34:55

don't think that the US, like,

34:58

and we talked way back when about things

35:00

like a US enforced no fly zone, the

35:03

US getting involved in a direct

35:05

military confrontation with Russia, even in

35:08

a defensive manner, is

35:10

just, you know, that's a

35:12

huge risk. It's a tolerable escalation.

35:16

Job one for foreign policy is to not have World War

35:18

III happen, you know? And

35:21

so I understand the US resistance there. Big

35:23

butt here where I agree with Zelensky. Why

35:25

are we not providing far more air

35:28

defense systems to the Ukrainians? It

35:31

stands to reason that, like, that's the kind

35:34

of thing we should be dramatically ramping up

35:36

in terms of our provision of the Ukrainians.

35:38

I'm sure that, you know, some of that

35:40

is in the sub. So again, that's not

35:42

necessarily even a critique of Biden. That's a

35:44

critique of Republicans holding this up. Why would

35:47

you not want to give these people patriots and

35:49

air defense systems and whatever they need to shoot

35:51

down drones? Like, we should be giving them all

35:53

of that stuff. Because even if you're someone who's

35:55

like, I'm a little uncomfortable kind Of

35:57

perpetuating the war on the front line, it's just

35:59

getting people. Killed the that and it that's

36:01

an are a good argument yeah I owe.

36:03

You can make an argument both ways on

36:06

that because you can also say yet to

36:08

fortify Ukraine given enough weapons so that they

36:10

can be in a negotiation with Russian, a

36:12

strong resistance, even a better view. They should

36:14

want to give a nice defensive systems and

36:17

into that's a no brainer and I do

36:19

think there's something. There's an interesting frustration as

36:21

scenes on skis messaging recently where. He's

36:24

willing to chris that criticize us. Def

36:26

Emily is always been a bit but

36:28

I'd totally get it like oh. Joe

36:31

Biden I get you don't want or places

36:33

of the higher near election year of a

36:35

really we want to survive in out of

36:38

stuff that's tests and similarly he's been willing

36:40

to go after republicans more which takes a

36:42

lot of guts because Trump is the guy

36:44

holding up the supplemental and so Zaleski seems

36:47

like he doesn't have a problem. Necessarily.

36:50

Going there and seen calling out

36:53

republican intransigence even though that republican

36:55

presidents is being. New mainly

36:57

driven by someone who could be president's Just go.

36:59

It's really tough looks situation to be in for

37:01

him and in. by the way, I'm. Foreign.

37:04

Affairs Magazines as a matter of run

37:06

to their this week this really interesting

37:08

piece about why and how the early

37:10

peace talks between Ukraine and Russia broke

37:12

down These without the first weeks and

37:14

months the of the war. There are

37:16

a lot of parties involves while different

37:19

opinions on what happened in what broke

37:21

down. but the just seems to be

37:23

that while various versions of a draft

37:25

agreement between the parties guaranteed that Ukraine

37:27

wouldn't join Nato or have nuclear weapons,

37:29

there was some language in their requiring

37:31

the countries that were supposed to be

37:34

the guarantors. Have disagreements to directly intervene.

37:36

If there was some sort of invasions

37:38

of the Us would have to come

37:40

to Ukraine's defensive Russia invaded which I

37:42

don't think most western countries were ready

37:44

to agree to. There was also the

37:46

fact that the talks were as the

37:48

talks are ongoing. the Russians withdrew from

37:50

the that northern sector of invasion, right?

37:52

They withdrew from their attempt to invade

37:54

from Della Reese that exposed all the

37:56

war crimes that have happened in places

37:58

light butchered it harder opinion in Ukraine.

38:00

Yeah, I think everybody just didn't trust

38:02

food know that point is. Obviously he

38:04

had been saying no, no, no, I'm

38:06

not going on video cranes and then

38:08

he did. But again, this is another

38:10

area where use or validity. This Robert

38:12

Kennedy Jr. is either a liar or

38:14

living on a different planet. This, when

38:16

he told me how to raise fees

38:18

as recently as March, she said. Prudent.

38:21

Was about was withdrawing his troops

38:23

when Biden sent Boris Johnson over

38:25

to tear up this propose peace

38:28

agreements because Bidens real goal was

38:30

to expand Nato into Ukraine. Like

38:32

that is just. Nuts. And

38:34

the opposite of that reporting right? Cause that

38:36

the U S is Radisson To give that

38:39

security greatest enough, I think that it'd be

38:41

very interesting to kind of. Learn

38:43

the whole history of what happened in

38:45

those early weeks and whether they're truly

38:47

was an opportunity to read some kind

38:49

of deal or whether it was just

38:51

there is and toxins and formulations the

38:53

ass back and forth we don't know

38:55

but we get suffice to say it

38:58

wasn't near Boris Johnson kill killing peace

39:00

deals on bath of I met there

39:02

was an emissary bore aside we i

39:04

mean that this that that that didn't

39:06

happen I mean I do think like

39:08

we should. You know,

39:10

I did. What a day I agree.

39:12

Podcasts noom people on a daily dose

39:15

of Cameron and I got a great

39:17

question which is like. You. Know

39:19

Hey. Seems. Like we're

39:21

worth reason comfortably posts, you know,

39:24

and. We need to

39:26

take this seriously, right? You get your

39:28

gob an actual war, and in Ukraine

39:30

you got a war in the Middle

39:32

East and that could escalate substantially. You've

39:34

got in China, could have Taiwan contingencies,

39:37

We do need some diplomacy here,

39:40

you know, And. The one

39:42

that and I would take is it even in

39:44

the hardest possible circumstances like the early weeks and

39:46

I'm not suggesting I don't know at the much

39:48

getting the binding could have like put some diplomatic

39:50

rabbit out of a hat. I'm just saying like.

39:53

Let's say something flares up and time on, but

39:55

I hope it's not like a momentum towards complex.

39:57

It's like how do we get the hell out

39:59

of this. Becoming. A war? You know,

40:01

Like, we need to start being really

40:03

aggressive, precisely because we are uncomfortably close

40:05

to what were three. Now's the time

40:07

to really be dialing up. The.

40:10

Diplomacy has yet. Both sides think that the

40:12

only way to restore deterrence is one last

40:14

attack. Yes, I agree with you know everybody

40:17

thinks they're going to have the last attacked.

40:19

A resource deterrence dance number gum times that

40:21

utterances just not having a one first. But

40:23

yeah, like I be nice. Okay, been inserted

40:26

Sudan because Monday April fifteenth marked a grim

40:28

anniversary in Sudan. It's a one year anniversary

40:30

of the Civil War and with so much

40:32

focus on Gaza in Ukraine or it is

40:34

important to remember that one of the worst

40:37

conflicts in the world is only getting worse.

40:39

So so quick. Stats: And last year, according

40:41

to the United Nations Humanitarian agencies, more

40:43

than eight million people have fled their

40:45

homes. At least fourteen thousand people have

40:47

keep been killed in Sudan. I am

40:49

sure that number as much higher is

40:51

is so little information getting in and

40:53

out or twenty five million people roughly

40:55

half operation of Sudan requires humanitarian assistance

40:57

And Save the Children warns that two

40:59

hundred and thirty thousand more children pregnant

41:02

women in new mothers could die in

41:04

the coming months due to hunker. So

41:06

this civil war broke out a year

41:08

ago. I went to Generals who are

41:10

ones. Allied began this bitter power struggle.

41:12

That power struggle has evolved into a

41:14

broader proxy war. So you have Sudan's

41:16

military which is commanded by General Abdel

41:18

Fattah. I'll burnham he is backed by

41:20

Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Ukraine in Iran

41:22

and then you have the paramilitary group,

41:25

the Rapid Sport Forces or Rss slide

41:27

by General most commonly known as him

41:29

Etti See get support and weapons from

41:31

the You Eat and from the Wagner

41:33

Mercenary Group in rush hour. Old buddies

41:35

on Monday City A Countries at this

41:37

conference in Paris pledged to point one

41:40

billion. Dollars in humanitarian aid to sit

41:42

in that is just nowhere near enough.

41:44

Ah, In his French President Emmanuel a

41:46

Cron noted, the humanitarian relief money raised

41:48

by this conference is probably less than

41:50

what's been spent by the various powers

41:52

fighting the proxy war in Sudan already

41:54

combined. We spoke with are jaded Diane

41:56

Mckenna, The Sea of Mercy corpse an

41:59

organization that is. Providing support to dance

42:01

and she doesn't four years a clip

42:03

of what she makes of this donor

42:05

conference in its successes. After yesterday's

42:07

international players and Conference, we're

42:09

still facing a shortfall of

42:11

approximately two billion dollars to

42:13

respond to their urgent needs

42:15

of the Sudanese people and

42:17

to provide life sustaining essential

42:19

like food and shelter. The

42:21

two point one billion dollars

42:23

that have been placed represents

42:25

to twenty cents per day

42:27

for each person in dire

42:29

need of assistance. It is

42:31

extremely concerning and quite frankly

42:33

a moral outrage that despite

42:35

famine warning. World Leaders have pledged

42:37

barely half of the funds needed to

42:40

save lives. So. During the crisis,

42:42

Zidane is also destabilizing neighboring countries that

42:44

Chad, South Sudan in Egypt was have

42:46

to manage these unsustainable refugee flows and

42:48

Dhabi seats camps for people. so you

42:50

know. For Saw Shadows a Mercy Corpse

42:52

and these organizations for the last didn't

42:54

work. they're doing the band. I mean

42:56

a couple weeks back we talked about

42:58

Sudan and I reset to a buddy

43:00

who is one of the leaders of

43:02

the Saved Our For Movement back in

43:04

early two thousand and six to say

43:06

like is or anything similar happening? Is

43:08

anyone standing up similar organizations to try

43:10

to. Do. Something outside of

43:12

government in his answer was basically

43:15

no and while saved our for

43:17

obviously didn't present. Third,

43:19

Genocide from happening and are for it at

43:21

least was as global movement to raise awareness

43:23

and for governments to respond to take some

43:26

sort of action. and now that's just that's

43:28

doesn't even exist in it's just you know

43:30

It left me wondering like what happened, how

43:32

did this is completely fell apart. Yeah,

43:35

I think it's because. The

43:38

breakdown I mean part of its to stick

43:40

to the world is crazier and there's more

43:42

stuff going on and things that would normally

43:44

get at noon and normally would have gotten

43:47

attention in the nineties or early aughts you

43:49

know are just getting drowned out. But another

43:51

be piece of this is. The. Degree

43:53

to which the international orders collapsed. It

43:56

doesn't really exist anymore. You know the

43:58

you mentioned it takes. Since

44:00

providing support on both sides of this like

44:02

the whole world is like a. New.

44:04

Series of proxy wars taking place and

44:06

you know back in the day or

44:09

even in the Obama years of my

44:11

we dealt with Sudan, South Sudan, interview

44:13

and Security Council like. That's. A

44:15

joke Now like you can get anything done

44:17

up an urban city. Councillors Russia and China

44:19

and us don't agree and I think and

44:21

so then it becomes this kind of you

44:24

know everybody backing their warlord and and again

44:26

I I don't think you have night and

44:28

don't think I know You don't have a

44:30

civil war like this incident, absence these external

44:32

powers like arming different. Side note on obvious

44:34

and so that's the problem That the problem

44:37

as sure some of it's in Sudan, but

44:39

if you if you couldn't adjust the wiring

44:41

of of these countries providing a sport you

44:43

could you could have a. Shot at

44:45

any missing pretty quickly. you know that's the

44:47

first point in his reads it we have

44:50

some leverage but got a call the you

44:52

he says stop sending weapons the Rss. well

44:54

that's yeah, that apparently hours in that same

44:57

that where the Us could focus more attention

44:59

and there's a very good ongoing Tom Perriello

45:01

now trying to do this. but into the

45:03

point that you eat like. Guess.

45:06

You as to Buddhists and collect? yeah

45:08

like if you a with spending that

45:10

money turnover, famines and elsewhere it's in

45:12

our interest because I don't think it

45:14

it it helps to have this degree

45:17

of of mass suffering and disorder across

45:19

all of North Africa. Like knowing that

45:21

that begets other problems, begets insurgencies, terrorism

45:23

obviously above off famine and and humanitarian

45:25

suffering and again the year the we

45:28

just talked about the U S know.

45:31

Trying. To shovel, know. Fourteen.

45:33

Billion dollars at the door, new Israeli

45:35

systems and I guarantee you couldn't squeeze

45:37

probably few hundred million dollars at the

45:39

door for us and eats for Sudan

45:41

a minute. We need different priorities. Frankly,

45:43

the world needs and birdies. America needs

45:45

and parties. And Megan that's him. That's.

45:48

More about Congress and the by administration

45:50

that says knew what what would you

45:52

can get? Yeah it's amazing what I

45:54

how quickly Congress will move to buy

45:56

more weapons now area. Third pressing. Sega

46:00

depressing story. So sad when out of Australia

46:02

been were on Saturday or in Body Junction

46:05

in Sydney. One of the country's deadliest mass

46:07

killings in decades took place when a man

46:09

with a knife entered a shopping mall instead

46:11

eighteen people leaving six dead. All but two

46:14

of the victims were women, including a nine

46:16

month old baby girl. So this forty year

46:18

old attacker reportedly had a long history of

46:20

mental illness or Police Commissioner Karen Web was

46:23

as to be press conference if the attacker

46:25

singled out women's to which he replied quote,

46:27

i think everyone seeing that footage can see.

46:30

That for themselves. So east coast targeting

46:32

women are one male. The one male

46:34

victim who died was a security guard.

46:36

He's working his first shift at the

46:38

mall and he lost his life while

46:40

trying to interviewed and save people up

46:42

to twenty four hours force attack. Hundreds

46:44

of people gathered for rally just outside

46:46

Melbourne calling for Action On Violence Against

46:48

Women after months of high profile murders

46:50

involving female victims. One activists who spoke

46:52

at the rally provided some statistics regarding

46:55

violence against Women in Australia Thought they

46:57

were as follows: One in two women

46:59

have experienced sexual. Harassment One in three

47:01

women have experienced islands and Ch

47:03

Fifteen one in four Australian women have

47:05

experienced intimate partner violence and fifteen when

47:08

inside. Women in Australia have experienced sexual

47:10

violence and the age of sixteen. So

47:12

the the father of the mall attacker

47:15

contacted police when he heard the news

47:17

or any had this to say that

47:19

the media i'm extremely sorry on surprises

47:22

preserve. His

47:25

surrender touted excitement. Shortage

47:28

of me? Give you an. Intelligent

47:30

conversation. I can't do

47:33

it because undecideds, On

47:36

my most other seven similar son than

47:38

ordinary at a method. Seven

47:42

hundred. Pieces.

47:45

Of parents absolute nightmare when I

47:47

had a child with me something

47:49

like this to happen and my

47:51

heart goes out to people as

47:53

as is this. Is devastating. So

47:56

the attack finally ended when a female

47:58

police officer name is Scott. Sharpie

48:00

attacker dead or what we want to

48:02

raise. it's send some some loves to

48:04

our listeners and friends in Australia is

48:06

it's scary stuff and also just. It's

48:09

pretty dark Man that like one of my initial thoughts

48:11

when I heard this story was. Thank. God

48:13

this didn't happen in America because that guy would have

48:15

had a gun. Yeah, and it would have been even

48:17

worse or not. I'm not saying like. You. Don't

48:19

know me, I'm just glad Australia as I

48:21

sold on laws to prevented this guy seemingly

48:23

from getting one boy at the ever actually

48:26

really strong gun laws and and that that

48:28

is really driven down gun violence. I mean

48:30

I eat I mentioned you Tommy like I

48:32

heard some from some listeners australia about this

48:34

violence and women piece of it and. I

48:37

did a similar to dive into that

48:39

can statistics for to really jarring and

48:41

that even if this guy has mental

48:43

illness and hang on a second someone's

48:46

head in any case but. If

48:48

you're in a society that is can

48:50

too tolerant of disc of violence against

48:52

women you know it does can open

48:55

the door to people taking that to

48:57

extremes you know own us. And I

48:59

think it raises the bar on societies

49:01

like in Australia to to really take

49:03

a concerted across the board effort to

49:05

try to get at the root causes

49:07

of violence can swim. It's which we've

49:09

seen by the way. too many places

49:12

like we you just talk about Australia.

49:14

India's had all these problems over the

49:16

years where you've seen periodic uprisings sense.

49:18

Of people being i won't go near they're

49:20

they're awful sexual assaults it's and and seven

49:22

and public the Uk the vid been issues

49:24

over the years of of women feel like

49:26

there's com normalization of people being harassed and

49:28

us obviously he my for we say but

49:30

yeah please Nikkei and Acid us has had

49:32

you know that the me to move in

49:35

and all kinds. So I do think that

49:37

this is that the most jarring reminder that.

49:40

You. Know that even in. I.

49:43

Know relatively. Non

49:46

violence is advanced democracies you can

49:48

ignore can allow these kinds of

49:50

issues to discussed Her You know,

49:52

having violence against women as is

49:54

a really high indicator that someone

49:56

might commit homicide. Yum yum That

49:58

wow game A Partner. The

50:00

other really scary incident in Australia Monday where

50:02

there was a bishop at a church was

50:04

grabbed. How getting a Ser Ms livestream death

50:06

penalty was a date that cop said it

50:09

was a terrorist attack by religious extremists. Bone

50:11

didn't seem more than that. Yeah.

50:13

Yeah it seemed to be something to do

50:16

with the this particular church, but yeah ruff

50:18

new, horrible, horrible. To more quickly were get

50:20

the interview. So a quick update on a

50:22

sorry we Cari when it broke which is

50:24

a former Us ambassador. Meanwhile, Roka was sentenced

50:27

to fifteen years in prison on Friday Russia

50:29

pleaded guilty to acting as a secret agent

50:31

for the Cuban government for up to forty

50:33

years. He worked in top jobs at the

50:36

State Department i the White House on the

50:38

National Security Staff. In the mid nineties, he

50:40

was even the Us Ambassador to build with

50:42

yes I'm. Very senior guy wrote as indictment

50:45

says he was recruited by Cuban intelligence while

50:47

visiting. She lay in Nineteen Seventy Three. So

50:49

right after graduating from college, sets of his

50:51

Cuban intel guys as his airplane a long

50:53

game as his wasn't a citizen and I

50:55

don't the I can. he joined the State

50:58

Department's in Nineteen Eighty One. So. They

51:00

got him early so roach have the

51:02

State Department and to that much the

51:04

new this on I would like this

51:06

would be to Ah. he later works

51:09

as an advisor to Us Southern Command

51:11

from the getting oh six to Twenty

51:13

Twelve so Gagne state and government stayed

51:15

focused on ah Us entities did manage

51:17

to Cuba see also currently stayed loyal

51:19

to the Cuban government because in Twenty

51:22

Twenty Two and Twenty Twenty Three death

51:24

the I did the sting operation where

51:26

they send someone undercover to contact Roach

51:28

Us and he started bragging about his

51:30

accomplishments and loyalty to Cuba. The Associated

51:32

Press reported that a Cuban to sector

51:35

tipped off a former Cia officer about

51:37

rotor as far back as two thousand

51:39

and Six, but it sounds like they

51:41

just dropped the ball. So great job

51:43

Bush Administration's It is not clear if

51:45

Roach as fully cooperating about all that

51:48

he did and knows but. Man.

51:50

Like infiltration. A double agent at

51:52

that level really makes you wonder

51:54

how much diane miss? Yeah, like

51:56

how many more these are are

51:58

you know? The limits of

52:00

counter intelligence? It it does less smoke

52:02

computers. They're like, yeah, it's It's interesting.

52:06

So. Avenue. Nerd out here for

52:08

a second because I've been doing some like research.

52:11

For. This book I'm working on that involves minded the

52:14

king and a get said. When

52:16

the intelligence to new can set up jag

52:18

over the last Out at first right Hoover's

52:20

running the F B I they create a

52:23

see I instead to the credit different intelligence

52:25

agencies. But what Hoover got. His.

52:27

Counterintelligence right? Like the basically loyalty investigations

52:29

and United States Security clearances. things like

52:32

that and Hoover used it to concrete

52:34

this massive power structures angus you and

52:36

I like if he had the of

52:38

like having to meet F B I

52:40

guys to ask all these questions and

52:43

with my said to me. When.

52:45

The already telling my drug use how do

52:47

you do that one of the support of

52:49

money thing about it is like go mind

52:51

isn't where the nerd out the worse combination

52:53

of my life with the yeah this is

52:55

where the know that connects to the the

52:57

cuban thing because he of the ask you

52:59

this dumb questions i dunno. Have you

53:01

ever been a member of a party committed to

53:04

overthrow? They busy that are you communists? The rights

53:06

which it and then they ask if you've ever

53:08

use drugs right and if you're get in and

53:10

they ask you buy yes if you hadn't met

53:12

always had sex with like foreigners and stuff which

53:14

guess what? This questions are there like we're Jade

53:17

Gruber question totally never mind. Trump's have a five

53:19

hundred million dollar debt that someone's going to pay

53:21

for him. it's amazing. like a bigger deal had

53:23

no is amazing reading this book that I'm like

53:25

oh I always thought these questions weird but it's

53:27

aka zebra group of while and another who was

53:30

sleeping with who who is a communist. Like losers

53:32

know Reimer he has no it's the The rhyme

53:34

or reason was like the F B I wanted

53:36

to have isles and everybody A rights and and

53:38

meanwhile. Like. If you add a real. Counterintelligence.

53:41

Approach you wouldn't get because I'd say me this

53:44

I drug use in oh wow where did you

53:46

get the drugs and like to read certain towers?

53:48

Man like you have wasn't a sledgehammer. That's like

53:50

they kept asking me like why I that years

53:52

seems like you did a bunch of marijuana. like

53:54

where'd you get that someone like were you ever

53:56

in a dorm dude flavor, a female nord The

53:58

things that are hands on. No they they

54:00

try to like do like a chain of custody

54:02

with like and only you like that mean of.

54:05

The. Bag of weed you've ever bought. So diana

54:07

like giving them the name of like one of

54:09

my really good friends in college and the much

54:11

as the I guys was identified as as as

54:13

you like what the fuck man. Y

54:16

y z somebody really seriously I

54:18

guess actually answered the questions I've

54:20

never monsieur was like somebody I

54:22

simulators like. You. I won't name

54:24

or this person is because they're actually like of

54:27

like and he's like. You. Told the truth

54:29

and your first one an assist like though not

54:31

as had yet. I still think if is a

54:33

split likes of over marijuana use as for like

54:35

the infinity sign. Lox.

54:38

Ah god but I once again like.

54:41

These. These massive mess and that I

54:43

it's also good as again, no no

54:45

offense to the. Poor. Slobs at

54:47

the garden and beauty like he meets. but it made

54:49

me think like. Something. Like one

54:51

percent of Americans has to Differences: it's

54:53

a fucking jobs program to because meant

54:55

that amount of time and these people

54:57

putting these. Pointless. Investigation took like

55:00

nine months. Yeah and it's like we

55:02

know heroic interview my mom were not

55:04

touching the actual does. Guess who the

55:06

town entered Thousand Thread isn't It's not

55:08

someone who smoked pot and high school

55:10

now or even someone like subscribe to

55:12

some fucking communists newspaper in college right?

55:14

Say it's the person that is like

55:16

know in dealing with foreign governments, owes

55:18

money or has some weirdos in my

55:20

yeah legs. So all this is to

55:22

say, our entire Counterintelligence. Structure is

55:24

fucked up. and it's fucked up because

55:27

it's rooted in this. Like. Peculiar.

55:30

Sociopath. Judge Pooper Scooper used

55:32

to do like gather information on mass.

55:35

him as Americans and of nerd out

55:37

know it's really good. and like weirdos

55:39

like guy James Angleton relax specialize in

55:41

counterintelligence. God knows if they. Harmed.

55:43

Or heard the country. Lot of people think certain elements

55:45

do these weirdos if you wanna get that. Yeah, like

55:48

Robert Hanssen member the guys like F B I guy

55:50

was pass on stuff to the Russians. It's.

55:52

They're always like when you learn about

55:54

these people they're usually like it's not

55:56

that shocking. it's so obvious obvious Aramis

55:58

uma das ten grand a year, the

56:00

time in a bike and ninety thousand

56:02

dollar porsche nobody notices via Henson have

56:04

like and yeah like some girlfriend that

56:07

he would impressed with others like like

56:09

ensued is they were less busy cracking

56:11

down basically and liberals casino that who's

56:13

more likely to smoke weed and you

56:15

know baggage and leftwing campus politics like

56:17

that they might actually catch the despise

56:19

rate apparently. rotor you know, surf fooled

56:21

everybody by by assuming the identity of

56:23

like a super hard line anti communists

56:26

guy to the point when he was

56:28

in the Us and a when. He. Was

56:30

Us ambassador to Bolivia. He seemed to

56:32

overtly come out in opposition to the

56:34

left is candidate than running for president

56:36

which surprise surprise helped that guy when

56:39

re I was younger he presented you

56:41

have a right winger rights or like

56:43

that There was all the sort of

56:45

obvious com subterfuge happen because you bought

56:47

that. What What Have. I. Mean,

56:49

this is why the Cubans are smart because you're

56:52

like, oh, we could have our assets. In.

56:54

Bolivia, the U S A so unpopular. That.

56:56

This guy meddling and Bolivian affairs as

56:59

an anti communist section help the left.

57:01

and guy when you know the ultimate

57:03

irony of the stupidity of American farmers

57:05

in Limerick, use our yep nonsense against

57:07

us. lasting ban. Did. You bring

57:09

your royal correspondent. Had to the officer than.

57:12

A. Me I can drive because I was

57:14

actually reading some Danish were on these.

57:16

Okay well this is Danish I have

57:18

is the question for as want to

57:20

know if you saw that Meghan Markle

57:22

Soft launched a lifestyle brand you fight

57:24

against other somebody on a taxi. The

57:27

first products see the apparently releasing some

57:29

sort of strawberry jam. From. The

57:31

American Riviera Orchard brand It was sent to

57:33

Fifty five. Oh Total influencers. Each one is

57:35

numbers so when you Instagram it. You.

57:38

Can see. Did. You get one. I

57:41

didn't but I just don't understand why she's not

57:43

doing like a reboot, a suits or something like

57:45

what? Why that jam? I don't know why. Gym:

57:48

I. Was hobby as an inside their They began

57:50

fans. I mean Brits are busy

57:52

jam I mean but she's not the I

57:54

did did just I don't giving them advice.

57:56

yeah don't have any advice on like that.

57:59

The. Podcast as. Heard it actually listen

58:01

to the podcast and it's a it

58:03

was proof that like just because you're

58:05

famous as minion know this. This.

58:07

Is a hard job? Yeah. Be willing to say snow all

58:09

think that this is easy. You

58:12

and I love preparations into this is are

58:14

you going to tell the necessary and I

58:16

used to play required for a still what?

58:18

So I'm gonna drop my danish row think as

58:20

is a great washing post or it's Did

58:22

you know that the defense at essay. For.

58:25

Denmark and Washington is like literally.

58:28

Like. The print like dead the

58:30

son of the Queen of Denmark and

58:32

what? the brother the current king know

58:34

my dad Danish royal and it gets

58:36

an interesting. To the

58:38

Queen of Denmark had two sons the

58:40

older son was a conference in the

58:43

guy then. She. Announced that

58:45

she was abdicating. But. He

58:47

also has said she was stripping disguise kids

58:49

of their prince settles last another discounts and

58:51

countesses as the har seems kind of. and

58:54

then this guy they all like shot back

58:56

there like all were really offended by that

58:58

which you might think they would be. And

59:01

now is in Washington. As expensive as a new none of

59:03

this. So that's

59:05

a sweet job just saying your defense

59:07

as I say kind of as as

59:09

yeah yeah gotta get you, opens doors

59:12

wasn't. Yo.

59:14

Or old friend of the pod Caitlin Hayden

59:16

as been earlier Ellingson. I think I think

59:18

he's a defense at a Save for the

59:20

Icelandic and think that's right. What a cool

59:22

job. Three, the defense as a safer for

59:24

fries are basically a modern Viking. Yes, sleep

59:26

yeah yeah that I had the Lucky Me

59:28

ties tall, tall, handsome them times Geico water

59:31

with this is a good test of cave

59:33

and there's a problem. Zero presents and sick

59:35

illnesses like as much as a will find

59:37

out. know if I know that is at

59:39

war By the way of you didn't get

59:41

one of the fifty influencer bottles of jam

59:43

according. To Bbc visitors to the gift

59:45

shops in any rope house can get

59:47

the Buckingham Palace Strawberry Preserve for three

59:49

pounds Ninety Five or the Windsor Castle

59:51

find Cuts So v orange marmalade for

59:53

the same present why they're doing and

59:56

maybe they just one a direct war.

59:58

This is like Andrew. You

1:00:00

know if looks like own little more the

1:00:02

jail for describe our you are shogun If

1:00:04

you haven't. Learned pits it

1:00:06

to me. I watched the first two

1:00:08

episodes. Great Six sixteen hundred Japan, The

1:00:11

Portuguese The Breaths great I'd This is

1:00:13

the second time I get the recognition.

1:00:15

say. Quick. Plugged

1:00:17

to I did. I did Escape Hatch

1:00:19

podcast this morning. With. A Jason

1:00:21

Gold know? Yeah, Awesome dude. We. We

1:00:23

like how to do in Part Vi yeah we

1:00:25

will be You re watch a movie and and

1:00:27

are we did a hunt for Red October? Agree

1:00:29

which by the way it is quite well grapes

1:00:31

are going up but we somehow came up. Shogun.

1:00:34

These guys ring much of internet. so that minix

1:00:36

was I watched ripley. If

1:00:38

you watch Ripley. Ah that. so it's like the

1:00:40

town to miss. Reflects at the took a series

1:00:42

of as and it's called a cast com or

1:00:45

gonna do a quick got crazy Ivan. We.

1:00:47

Come back your here! My interview with

1:00:49

Calzaghe Indie. Rock. Talk about what

1:00:51

happens after the war in Gaza

1:00:53

stops and how you reconstructs the

1:00:56

Gaza Strip and how you don't.

1:00:59

Stick around for us! As

1:01:07

assess and a restaurant owner and as I teach

1:01:09

us about my cats were as I am on

1:01:11

that link results. That's why I love meeting. Tackling

1:01:13

each pan they make isn't as designed. To. Perform

1:01:15

is crafted to last. As a mom

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I love that I can trust me that it's

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mates and the world's scientists materials. I can feel

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separate. Williamson and I use made in cook ware

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cook ware.com. I'm

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Or and Siegel and I've been

1:01:33

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to. The gas. Using

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river monsters that clean. And.

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A professional an easy to tackle your dreams

1:02:09

is he. Is

1:02:12

still professional. Forget all your home prices

1:02:14

son well as the anti.com You can

1:02:16

do this when you nz that. By

1:02:25

guess today is how little didn't he

1:02:27

sees A senior fellow in Director of

1:02:29

Program On Palestine and the Palestinian Israeli

1:02:31

Affairs at the Middle East Institute is

1:02:33

also the author of the excellent book

1:02:35

Blind Spot America and the Palestinians From

1:02:37

Balfour to Trump or great to see.

1:02:39

Thank you for doing the show. Yeah,

1:02:42

thanks for having me back. It

1:02:44

has been six months of this

1:02:46

nightmare of a war in Gaza.

1:02:49

Eventually it will have to end. And.

1:02:52

You know is is awful. The war as been

1:02:54

I think. Things. Will get even

1:02:56

harder after we want to talk about

1:02:58

that today and just or get in.

1:03:00

Argues and a lot agree writing about

1:03:02

this but when it's get your senses

1:03:04

of what will be required. For.

1:03:07

Reconstruction and Governance going

1:03:09

forward. It's hard

1:03:11

to know really where to start on

1:03:14

the question of reconstruction and governance you

1:03:16

know in the past, so whenever they're

1:03:18

been wars long and short you know

1:03:20

the shortest was maybe a few days

1:03:22

and then the longest was like fifty

1:03:24

one days before. Now as we've never

1:03:27

seen anything like this in terms of

1:03:29

the scale of destruction. I

1:03:31

know the World Bank is putting

1:03:34

the reconstruction sigar at around. Eighteen

1:03:37

and a half a billion. which is.

1:03:40

To. Me sounds very, very modest and

1:03:42

I and I behave relates only

1:03:44

two things like housing. Because.

1:03:47

About sixty to seventy percent of

1:03:49

the housing stock has been. Destroyed.

1:03:52

Or at least enough to

1:03:55

be unlivable. so. Probably.

1:03:58

At a safe for as to. Would.

1:04:01

Would be like a hundred

1:04:03

billion for for everything you

1:04:05

have to rebuild hospitals and

1:04:07

roads and sewage lines and

1:04:09

all kinds of infrastructure that

1:04:11

was civilian infrastructure that was

1:04:13

to deliberately destroyed and in

1:04:16

the meantime what happens. Right?

1:04:18

How does Gaza? The. A livable

1:04:20

place, so even if you could, if

1:04:22

you can, Locate. Those

1:04:24

resources, How how do people live

1:04:26

there Arm and my fear and

1:04:29

I think the sphere of a

1:04:31

lot of people is that. It

1:04:34

won't Overtime will see people.

1:04:37

You know, maybe trickling out ah

1:04:39

at first, but then eventually. You.

1:04:41

Might see a mass exodus over

1:04:43

the next five to ten years

1:04:45

because people need. To

1:04:48

educate their kids. People need work,

1:04:50

People need hospitals. So.

1:04:54

I don't know, I don't know

1:04:56

how you deal with serve the

1:04:58

reconstruction part. That's.

1:05:01

On the technical side, on the

1:05:03

political side, it sees and harder

1:05:05

because where the Us in the

1:05:07

Europeans and maybe the Arab states

1:05:10

are with regard to Gaza's reconstruction

1:05:12

and rehabilitation is not at all.

1:05:15

Where. The Israeli government is. Your.

1:05:17

Arm and and so that huge

1:05:19

gap. Is going to

1:05:22

work in the favor of the

1:05:24

party that are on the ground.

1:05:26

Namely, the Israelis. Israelis don't care

1:05:28

about reconstruction. They don't care about

1:05:30

anyone. Security. But. Their own

1:05:32

An answer. They're not looking

1:05:34

at long term governance and

1:05:36

that in traditional terms, are

1:05:38

looking at. Who can we

1:05:41

recruit now that serves our

1:05:43

immediate interests including so they

1:05:45

don't even trust the humanitarian

1:05:47

aid groups. And so they're

1:05:49

looking to to cultivate a

1:05:51

different kind of leadership. That

1:05:54

is more parochial. The album business

1:05:56

leaders heads of clans may be

1:05:59

gangs of. Warlords at some

1:06:01

point. Is

1:06:03

we have two completely different

1:06:05

visions for. For. Gaza as.

1:06:08

A short and medium term future and

1:06:10

I don't know how those get reconciled

1:06:12

with the turn of the political process

1:06:15

he mentions. I agree. It does seem

1:06:17

like that will be harder. I mean,

1:06:19

you talked about. There's this huge disconnect

1:06:21

between what the United States is talking

1:06:23

now which is empowering the Palestinian Authority

1:06:26

and asking them to take the lead

1:06:28

in Gaza. The Israelis, as you mentioned,

1:06:30

don't like that plan. They want to

1:06:32

go a different routes. But there's also

1:06:35

reports More importantly, my opinion of tensions

1:06:37

between Hamas and Fatah. Ah,

1:06:39

this from lead Palestinian parties. And

1:06:42

it all calls into question. How

1:06:44

to find some sort of

1:06:46

single unified Palestinian leadership? The

1:06:49

could take the lead. On

1:06:51

giving how scenes of voice in

1:06:53

these processes going forward and a

1:06:55

voice in reconstruction Or are you

1:06:57

seeing any process emerge or any

1:06:59

leaders emerged that you think might

1:07:01

can be the generation or of

1:07:03

or process for which these. Near

1:07:06

this political challenge get sorted out. Sadly,

1:07:08

I don't. I

1:07:11

think there are. There are huge gaps.

1:07:14

Across the board: A Between

1:07:17

Israelis and the U S.

1:07:19

Obviously between Israelis and Palestinians

1:07:21

Among Palestinians probably within the

1:07:23

two factions within such as

1:07:26

Third. There. Are different

1:07:28

visions within? Some you

1:07:30

have. Different factions, you

1:07:32

know? Yeah, the leadership that is

1:07:35

based outside of Gaza in Darfur

1:07:37

you have obviously if the Us

1:07:39

in water inside and his immediate.

1:07:43

Circle of Leadership Ah and you

1:07:45

have you have a of others

1:07:47

in the diaspora in Lebanon for

1:07:50

example. So Ah are say on

1:07:52

the same page it's not, It's

1:07:54

not clear that they are I

1:07:57

think part of the problem. He.

1:08:00

Has been the kind of zero

1:08:02

some thinking on all sides. obviously

1:08:04

when you have massive. Das.

1:08:07

Ah people, you know people

1:08:09

kind of retreat to these

1:08:12

very absolutist. Ideas

1:08:14

and visions. And and zero

1:08:16

some. Certainly that was true

1:08:18

of the Israelis ah, early

1:08:21

on, and and a mouse

1:08:23

as well. That's to be

1:08:25

expected. I think

1:08:27

what was missing. Was

1:08:30

for a responsible third party

1:08:32

actor to emerge to say.

1:08:36

Who? Who? Who could not think

1:08:38

in zero some terms and think

1:08:40

mean much more reasonable terms about

1:08:42

what is. Feasible. And what

1:08:44

isn't And what's necessary. Ah,

1:08:47

And the right as it should have

1:08:49

been that party but but they weren't.

1:08:51

They sort of bought into the The

1:08:53

Zero some. Calculations.

1:08:55

That the Israelis were were. Pushing.

1:08:58

Out there and that is, Hamas

1:09:00

has to be completely destroyed as

1:09:02

a military movement and politically as

1:09:05

a governing. Force. Ah,

1:09:07

that was never achievable and it was

1:09:09

always untenable. And so I I think

1:09:12

it was quite reckless for the United

1:09:14

States to buy into that early on.

1:09:17

I'm. Even though they've kind of

1:09:19

heads than moved away from that

1:09:21

kind of rhetoric. But

1:09:24

in a lot of ways it's it's too late. For

1:09:27

mass is going to have to

1:09:29

be. Incorporated into

1:09:31

the Palestinian body, politic in

1:09:33

one form or another, people

1:09:35

will have to come to

1:09:37

terms with sad reality. If

1:09:39

you cannot accept that reality

1:09:41

that is a recipe or

1:09:43

endless war. And. And death

1:09:45

and destruction. So there's just things that

1:09:48

we don't like that we have to

1:09:50

accept. In. The world. And

1:09:52

and that is one of them.

1:09:54

Yeah, I mean look, even Channel Twelve

1:09:56

News in Israel reported that Israeli

1:09:58

Military Intelligence assesses. That's. Mass will

1:10:00

exist as a guerrilla group as a

1:10:02

terrorist group after the war. so I

1:10:04

think everyone agrees with what you're saying.

1:10:07

Yeah. But it's more than just a guerrilla group. right?

1:10:09

It's a political group for eyes and

1:10:12

I am years in resistance, occupation net.

1:10:14

yeah but in any have an ideology

1:10:16

and they have a base so they

1:10:18

have a constituency. They have had their

1:10:20

support and and and so I mean

1:10:22

it. It's a political movement before it's

1:10:24

even a military or gorilla. Months.

1:10:27

So do you are an adviser to

1:10:29

the passing leadership, You are part of

1:10:32

the Annapolis negotiations. You have probably heard

1:10:34

a lot of empty rhetoric. About

1:10:36

the Middle East peace process from Western

1:10:38

leaders you seen a lot of failed

1:10:40

efforts in. I'm asking you over generalize

1:10:42

here but was wondering. You know clearly

1:10:44

there is underlying political problem that is

1:10:46

driving the conflict way. We need to

1:10:48

get to a place where there a

1:10:50

Palestinian state that has led by Palestinians

1:10:52

were people I'm home and so that

1:10:54

will require some sort of negotiations with

1:10:56

hopefully will lead to a two state

1:10:59

solution in the past. In broad strokes,

1:11:01

what do you think? the process. Dot.

1:11:03

Wrong. And are there things you think the

1:11:05

U S could do to help fix it

1:11:07

going forward? or anyone could do. He.

1:11:10

Added. There

1:11:13

is a lot that sits at the U

1:11:15

S got wrong. That's really kind of dirt

1:11:17

that is. You know that the thrust of

1:11:19

my book, which was trying to answer the

1:11:21

question of why wasn't the U S able

1:11:23

to be an effective mediator in this case,

1:11:26

whereas in other contexts it could get on

1:11:28

the Balkans or Northern Ireland or his arm.

1:11:30

And it has a lot to do with

1:11:32

the fact that. The

1:11:35

Special Relationship with Israel Us

1:11:37

officials, lawmakers, elected officials, administration's

1:11:39

of both parties tend to

1:11:42

look at the issue through

1:11:44

a very Israel centric lens

1:11:46

arm. and if you'd when

1:11:48

you do that. Certain.

1:11:51

Things get filtered out. And. Things

1:11:53

like. The. Negative consequences

1:11:55

of Israel's power. You.

1:11:58

Know look at, look at, Happening

1:12:00

now. Another thing that

1:12:02

gets filtered out his Palestinian politics.

1:12:04

And you know, like all groups,

1:12:07

they have politics. and it's not

1:12:09

just about. Ah, you know

1:12:11

who the Prime Minister's going to be? It.

1:12:13

Is fundamentally about in these

1:12:15

different factions that have different

1:12:18

visions for wanting to lead

1:12:20

Palestinian National movement. That.

1:12:22

Was not a priority for Us officials and me.

1:12:24

The fact. During. The Bush Administration

1:12:26

when that split first happened between

1:12:28

Hamas and Fatah. You.

1:12:30

Know Palestinians were like holy crap

1:12:33

this is. You Know that our

1:12:35

national movement is been fractured. The

1:12:37

Bush Administration saw it as a

1:12:40

good thing. They said this is

1:12:42

an opportunity. Now we can move

1:12:44

forward with the got the good

1:12:46

Palestinians and sidelining and even on

1:12:49

pressuring and even making war on

1:12:51

the bad Palestinian's. That

1:12:53

just doesn't make sense. You noted

1:12:55

to deal with two different sets

1:12:58

of Palestinians as though, and then

1:13:00

pretend that one was outside the

1:13:02

peace process, right? some ass, when

1:13:04

in fact, They. Could clearly

1:13:06

torpedo the process whenever they

1:13:09

wanted, and and they did

1:13:11

so quite often. That

1:13:13

the by them has risen today seems

1:13:16

primarily focused on securing the normalization agreements

1:13:18

between Israel and Saudi Arabia as part

1:13:20

of, I guess a broader regional peace

1:13:22

efforts. There's a bunch of reports on

1:13:24

their some suggest that the Us would

1:13:26

have to give Saudi Arabia security guarantee.

1:13:28

There's others, it's just to give them

1:13:31

a nuclear energy infrastructure for some reason,

1:13:33

and the Israelis I think you know

1:13:35

would be asked to take meaningful steps

1:13:37

towards the creation the Palestinian state. I

1:13:39

don't know exactly what that would entail,

1:13:41

hopefully would be meaningful, but. I

1:13:44

think by the price their went up since

1:13:46

October seventh. I hear about all this effort

1:13:48

being expanded on this normalization agreement and I

1:13:51

wonder if it's the right path. It seems

1:13:53

like. A bit of a bank shot to

1:13:55

me to get to a Palestinian civil. what he would you

1:13:57

make of those efforts? Yeah. I

1:13:59

think you're. It's a at it you know,

1:14:01

banks are. It's an interesting way to put

1:14:03

in I I I think it is kind

1:14:06

of underscores the extent to which the Palestinian

1:14:08

issue is not a priority Palestinian statehood. Isn't

1:14:11

the goal? But. Normalization

1:14:13

is the goal and Palestinian Statehood

1:14:15

is is one of the boxes

1:14:17

that have to be checked in

1:14:20

order to get to that rent

1:14:22

it out grand bargain and so

1:14:24

it's secondary in in terms of

1:14:26

in resolving the Israel. Palestinian.

1:14:29

Peace of That, which is really

1:14:32

about Palestinian sovereignty and self determination.

1:14:35

A Don't think this

1:14:37

administration appreciates. Ah,

1:14:39

I'm kind of the core issues

1:14:41

of the conflict which isn't Hamas?

1:14:44

The. Conflict didn't start on October Seventh

1:14:46

of. Terrorism is not the root

1:14:48

cause of this conflict. The root

1:14:50

cause is the denial of millions

1:14:53

of Palestinians the most basic rights

1:14:55

that other humans are entitled to.

1:14:57

I mean, good thing you, You

1:14:59

often hear and whispered in Washington

1:15:01

policy circles and that would not

1:15:03

to sound too cynical here, but

1:15:05

people say well actually you know

1:15:07

Israel's neighbors as other countries in

1:15:09

the golf, like the Saudis, like

1:15:11

Egypt, like the U A E.

1:15:13

They publicly criticize Israel. When. They

1:15:15

go after Hamas, but they quietly like it.

1:15:17

Because they worry about the organization as

1:15:20

well. Maybe it's a threat to some

1:15:22

the autocrats in the region. Is that

1:15:24

fair that accurate? Or that's the thing

1:15:26

people in Washington believe. I

1:15:29

think it's You know it's true to

1:15:32

an extent, but not true to the

1:15:34

extent that folks in Washington wanted to

1:15:36

be true. And

1:15:38

so it's a little of both

1:15:40

I and I think it be

1:15:43

it's less true every day the

1:15:45

longer this goes on. I can't

1:15:47

imagine that the Egyptian regime is

1:15:49

thrilled about having a million people

1:15:51

who are starved. Bombarded.

1:15:55

Desperate. On its borders

1:15:57

I I don't see how Egypt's and

1:15:59

security and. Our genser establishment would

1:16:01

think this is a good thing.

1:16:03

Yeah I don't think girl the

1:16:06

regimes in Saudi or Egypt. Or.

1:16:09

Other places in the region. Care.

1:16:12

All that much about Palestinian civilians, but

1:16:14

I do think that the public's in

1:16:16

the in these Arab countries care a

1:16:18

lot. And that's something

1:16:21

that these regimes pay attention to. And

1:16:23

and that is that. sweat. It

1:16:26

least allows them to say rhetorically,

1:16:28

at least that there. Aren't

1:16:30

that? You know that they support the Palestinians and

1:16:33

their critical of Israel. The. Trump era

1:16:35

me that he's normalization. agree with the Trump

1:16:37

era. Abraham A Court agreements

1:16:39

were Israel signs or normalization

1:16:41

deals with Bahrain, Morocco, the

1:16:43

U A E. Sudan. Those

1:16:45

are often. Sure, Handed in

1:16:47

western press as Middle East peace

1:16:50

agreements, but then again the Palestinians

1:16:52

words as an afterthought in those

1:16:54

conversations. Usually you know in the

1:16:56

case of the are you a

1:16:58

he the U S? Basically ah

1:17:01

made it a huge arms sales

1:17:03

deal to get the two sides

1:17:05

normalize. Would you think the impact

1:17:07

of those normalization deals was. On.

1:17:11

The Middle East peace process that we all think

1:17:13

about which was efforts to create a Palestinian state.

1:17:16

Yeah. I mean, I actually

1:17:18

think they were at working at cross

1:17:20

purposes, pursuing normalization and and I would.

1:17:23

I would dispute. Even

1:17:26

calling them peace treaties as you said.

1:17:28

ah, these were countries that were not

1:17:30

at war with Israel for them to

1:17:32

to make peace as such. Unlike Egypt

1:17:34

and Jordan, you know their peace treaties

1:17:37

with Israel easier to countries. That

1:17:39

were a historically at war with

1:17:41

Israel. but the U A E

1:17:43

Morocco I mean these are completely

1:17:45

different animals in terms of. That.

1:17:48

The nature of those agreements. I do

1:17:50

think that they were. Designed.

1:17:53

To. Kind of circumvent the

1:17:55

Palestinian issue altogether. Netanyahu,

1:17:58

Said it in so many. That's when.

1:18:01

You know when the abraham records were

1:18:04

were being side. And

1:18:06

we knew that that was also priority

1:18:08

for the Trump administration. So if you

1:18:10

know it's the people who are conceiving

1:18:13

it. Ah are telling you

1:18:15

that this is the way to bypass

1:18:17

the Palestinian issue. Then.

1:18:20

Then we said we should take them at

1:18:22

their word and and I do think that

1:18:24

it undermined the goal of a Palestinian state

1:18:26

because it reduced. One. Of

1:18:28

the last remaining incentives that

1:18:31

Israel had to end it's

1:18:33

occupation. Ah, Which is.

1:18:36

You know that being accepted in normalized

1:18:38

in the region. So. If at

1:18:40

all the Arab states normalize with Israel or

1:18:42

than what we have is is pretty much.

1:18:45

A permanent Israeli occupation

1:18:47

Also known as. Ah,

1:18:50

Apartheid so. Of.

1:18:52

If you just take something to

1:18:54

it's logical and that will tell

1:18:56

you. Ah, The impact

1:18:58

that it has and and it's adding.

1:19:01

It's clear to everyone that Saudi is

1:19:03

road. Normalization. Deal in

1:19:05

particular would mean I think

1:19:07

the death knell of of

1:19:09

the two state solution if

1:19:11

it's not already dead. I'm.

1:19:15

You. Have also written a lot

1:19:17

about the need for accountability. One

1:19:19

idea to create your processed it

1:19:21

gets to some accountability for not

1:19:23

of the swab. Other buzzer past

1:19:25

conflict is the idea of setting

1:19:27

up since her Truth and Reconciliation

1:19:30

Commission. I think that's a smart

1:19:32

idea us. I also wonder though

1:19:34

we're seeing this war in power

1:19:36

are more extreme voices on both

1:19:38

sides. In Israel it's people like

1:19:40

guitar been given erts smoker. It's

1:19:42

the finance minister. ah and that

1:19:44

course you. Know: Hamas? I think

1:19:46

it probably is increased. It's. Reputation.

1:19:49

In the region or least shown itself to

1:19:51

be an actor. Ah, where's the Palestinian Authority

1:19:53

is seen as kind of complacent and corrupt

1:19:56

would you think you would take to get

1:19:58

to that kind of process? The

1:20:00

way the peace process functioned was. Because.

1:20:04

It. Was a Us. Mediated.

1:20:06

Process and the U. Israel

1:20:08

relationship was so close it

1:20:11

naturally favored Israeli needs, demands,

1:20:13

narratives and so forth to

1:20:15

the exclusion of those same

1:20:17

things for Palestinians are and

1:20:19

so you need a different

1:20:21

approach that is much more

1:20:23

balanced. That takes

1:20:25

into account the needs of

1:20:28

both sides ah and pushing

1:20:30

new ideas like truth and

1:20:32

reconciliation like mutual accountability And

1:20:34

one of the reasons Yasuo

1:20:36

process has been such a

1:20:38

failure is that it never

1:20:40

had any. Accountability

1:20:43

mechanisms in place at all. There

1:20:45

wasn't even kind of a verification

1:20:47

process, did each side meet their

1:20:50

obligations by the deadline? and if

1:20:52

not, what are the consequences? They

1:20:54

studiously avoided that. So.

1:20:56

You need you need that from

1:20:58

the outside pushing in. But.

1:21:01

You also need to have

1:21:03

credible leaders leaders who are

1:21:05

willing to to to make

1:21:07

bold moves and to reimagine

1:21:09

their own future. And

1:21:12

and we don't have that on either

1:21:14

the Palestinian or the Israeli side. I

1:21:16

tend to put the onus. On.

1:21:19

The Palestinians in the sense that.

1:21:21

As the weakest party, they

1:21:23

have the greatest state and

1:21:25

the most to lose. In

1:21:28

the absence of a resolution, And.

1:21:30

So it is incumbent on

1:21:32

them first and foremost. To

1:21:35

have to kind of puts

1:21:37

their from national movement back

1:21:39

together and to establish a

1:21:42

cohesive unitary leadership of some

1:21:44

kind. whether it's. Through.

1:21:46

Reconciliation of from as and sat

1:21:48

there or of does that does

1:21:50

away with them all together and

1:21:52

establishes some new leadership. That.

1:21:56

Has to be a priority to

1:21:58

have a credible Palestinian leader. Leadership.

1:22:01

Now. You also need to have. A

1:22:04

leadership on Israeli side that is willing.

1:22:07

To. Make these kinds of concessions.

1:22:09

Radius is the leadership is focused

1:22:11

only on. Maintaining.

1:22:14

The Status Quo. Forever. You know that's

1:22:16

not going to work so that the

1:22:19

status quo has to become costly for

1:22:21

Israel in one form or other, politically

1:22:23

diplomatically economically. Well, that's the logic of

1:22:25

the of the Bts movement. Nothing

1:22:28

will change until Israel's calculations change. I

1:22:30

guess. If you are, you know the

1:22:32

National Security Adviser and Yucatan A snap

1:22:34

your fingers and make some calls over

1:22:36

the next six months. What do you

1:22:38

think you'd like to see President Biden

1:22:40

do going forward to to get us

1:22:42

to a better place? You know, notches

1:22:44

in the short term, but longer. Mean

1:22:47

beyond an immediate ceasefire yeah, metics

1:22:50

demanding at and media ceasefires like

1:22:52

table stakes right? Yeah. Yeah,

1:22:54

I mean I that's their. that's the

1:22:56

first step on. I mean. I

1:23:00

would. I would like to see a

1:23:02

recognition ah of the damage that was

1:23:04

done. And some accountability.

1:23:07

And I would like to see

1:23:09

a halt on on weapons transfers.

1:23:11

Ah until you know certain actions

1:23:13

were taken whether it's on the

1:23:16

humanitarian front and I you know

1:23:18

allowing humanitarian aid to to reach

1:23:20

guys have but also Gaza's reconstruction.

1:23:23

And. You. Know a

1:23:25

much more concerted effort to

1:23:28

encourage. A Palestinian leadership

1:23:30

that is unitary and Co

1:23:32

he says I'm a kind

1:23:34

of realpolitik acknowledgement that that

1:23:36

Hamas will be a force

1:23:39

and Palestinian politics. Ah, and

1:23:41

and therefore they're need to

1:23:43

be smart ways of trying

1:23:45

to neutralize it's negative influences

1:23:47

rather than just. You. Know

1:23:49

the hammer, On because

1:23:51

that's how we get. To

1:23:55

where we are. So I'd like

1:23:57

to see a lot more nuance

1:23:59

in the approach to internal policies.

1:24:01

Empower takes a lot more accountability

1:24:03

with regard to Israeli actions As

1:24:05

and from there I think the

1:24:07

less can start to rebuild it's

1:24:09

credibility that it has. Very.

1:24:13

At the you know, It's not

1:24:15

that it's completely dismantled. A

1:24:18

How The Gundy Thank you so much for

1:24:20

joining so again. The book is called Blind

1:24:23

Spots America and the Palestinians from Belfort Trump

1:24:25

Ah an excellent read if you want

1:24:27

to go deep on the party process in

1:24:29

the past summer failures and some of the

1:24:32

ideas for and move forward to thank you

1:24:34

can. Get. Thanks! Thanks for heaven's.

1:24:41

Sakes! The into how the Gundy for joining

1:24:43

the shell ah thanks to Meghan Markle for

1:24:46

are nothing. New. Names and in a

1:24:48

sentence, Mm jam yeah of the one they

1:24:50

become and thanks to those goons you like

1:24:52

up. Interviewed all of

1:24:54

our college friends to fly maybe

1:24:56

her just say he was so

1:24:58

horrified by feel bad for these

1:25:01

people having dead test and all

1:25:03

this time on my pretty boring

1:25:05

known as she millionaire. Sitting.

1:25:07

Around him. missing the like guy.

1:25:09

Jam. Band music and his own early

1:25:12

aughts knowing where did you live in

1:25:14

in Nineteen Ninety Six and when my

1:25:16

mom sounds as if it were how

1:25:18

is this helping your for certain that

1:25:20

this and houses protecting secrets. What happened

1:25:22

at the String Cheese Incident performances the

1:25:24

Some Your Hands Jazz Fest years earlier

1:25:26

this week and it is it gradually

1:25:28

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