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1:05

welcome to parts of the world i'm than rose

1:07

and i'm alex wagner alex wagner

1:10

joins us today as our guest

1:12

host to thank you so much out who wears

1:14

many hats cohosts

1:17

of so times hit show the circus

1:19

brand new when i could

1:22

be see contributor and death so soon to say

1:24

word about this the i just them

1:26

you know i grew up

1:28

the msnbc family in the msnbc

1:30

family and like the prodigal son i've

1:32

returned and i've now

1:35

i've think the official title as

1:37

senior political analysts because

1:39

i've gotten old and my time

1:41

the second wait a second do you know i'm a political

1:43

analyst does that mean that you are allowed

1:45

to me episode

1:46

yeah i mean we've always known it but

1:48

now yeah we've

1:51

always now and i'm just a

1:53

few notches above the a ban on

1:56

visible my experience in white house and

1:58

negotiating international agreements that's

2:00

why i get the senior title and you don't

2:02

and and ,

2:04

i have a guest danger so you'll see me in the

2:06

anchor chair shortly now

2:09

trying to kill other people's big shoes

2:12

the road might be reversed i want to be says

2:14

ah you can ask me questions and i'm a semi say

2:16

oh i mean that's why i took this

2:18

game to be careful the then

2:21

i get more tv time with the

2:23

why people can follow you everywhere

2:25

circus msm you see someone

2:27

many atlanta a sigh yes

2:29

you're it's always a day when you and i share

2:31

by lines on the home page

2:33

yes you're in the marketplace of ideas well

2:36

today we , a lot to talk about

2:39

about are gonna odyssey get the

2:41

latest on their russia ukraine situation

2:43

or we are gonna talk about the prospects of

2:46

and iran deal to point to were

2:48

going to check in on some crazy things

2:50

happening crazy things

2:53

and with our friend boris johnson

2:56

uk we have and i sweeter

2:58

who was killed since or lasts

3:00

a podcast so ,

3:02

lot to cover here and then i alex

3:05

and i will also also looking back

3:07

at the one year anniversary of the

3:09

a tragic coup in in in then

3:12

i'll be talking to the prime minister of a store

3:14

near taya kyle us about her

3:16

perspective as a nato member a

3:19

russia and as one of the

3:21

younger and more dynamic leaders

3:23

are on the european team but

3:27

that leaders back to where we're going to start today which

3:29

is russia ukraine so

3:31

alex i'm just gonna go , the latest

3:34

and then there a couple things that are we can impact

3:36

oliver's the off off center of

3:38

gravity of to some extent

3:40

to french president to mccrone

3:43

who flew to moscow

3:45

and met with prudent yesterday at

3:48

yesterday very large table if you haven't seen or

3:50

the picture maybe like a custom made

3:52

table

3:53

so our defensive excess i mean

3:55

i don't have that was a social distancing thing but

3:57

a very big table

4:00

anyway i didn't appear to when that well mccrone

4:02

said that the would be further escalation

4:05

that prudent promised them that they

4:07

would not be further escalation and in the

4:09

their be time to pursue diplomatic resolution

4:12

the , know after mccrone

4:14

lasts lasts central he said that

4:16

he didn't have the status to negotiate are

4:18

the issues at stake because is not the leader of leader

4:21

at making the point of us has to

4:23

be the one to negotiate on the terms of

4:26

russia's demands and nato pull back the

4:28

best way to wear was and and nineteen ninety seven

4:30

and not have been new members mccrone

4:32

though soldiered on he went on

4:35

to ukraine today where

4:37

on to with their presence of on skates on

4:39

from ukraine same point they

4:41

reiterated what they called red lines which

4:43

is that there can be any infringement on their

4:45

sovereignty or and they get to determine

4:48

their on foreign policy which

4:50

, suggested they're not open

4:52

to have a pledge to never join

4:54

nato so doesn't feel like we're any further

4:56

to resolution your meanwhile

5:00

biden met with a new german chancellor schultz

5:02

out assaults i , have mine

5:04

coming of that meeting was biden

5:06

vowed that that nordstream to pipeline

5:08

that goes from that scheduled to

5:11

come online the takes a gas

5:13

from russia to germany won't

5:15

happen it'll be stopped one way or another presumably

5:18

either by us sanctions or by german accent

5:20

if russia does invade ukraine ukraine

5:22

lot of effort to trot a project unity

5:25

biden said that he and said that

5:28

or in lockstep on this shorts reiterated

5:30

that russia would pay a high price i

5:32

said invade ukraine that again

5:35

germany's been a bit of an outlier in and

5:37

threatening stronger ,

5:40

sanctions music generally not generally

5:43

the nato secretary general said that

5:45

know that nato itself is considering

5:48

long term adjustments to it's posture

5:50

vertically and east which is run

5:52

counter to what russia once which is near not

5:55

being presence being the states

5:57

you foreign policy she said europe is facing

5:59

it's missouri the street rats and scoreboard

6:02

and , and china yeah had

6:04

a meeting yes yes

6:06

in this to me as a maybe actually the

6:08

headline last week aziz and paying

6:10

and prudent mets in beijing around

6:12

the beginning of the olympics issued a pretty

6:14

sweeping joint sweeping that

6:17

was full of kind of hyperbole ah

6:20

very confrontational to the us

6:22

and the west and

6:24

new excerpt russia and

6:26

china stand against attempts by external forces

6:29

to undermine stirred instability forces to common

6:31

adjacent regions intend to counter

6:33

interference by outside forces in the internal

6:35

affairs a sovereign countries under any

6:37

pretext oppose color revolutions and

6:39

will increase cooperation as a long way of

6:41

saying china backs russia's

6:43

stance on no more nato enlargements

6:45

and russia backed whatever the hell china

6:48

wants to do on taiwan or and the us

6:50

to just accept that ah the old

6:52

international as exists anymore and russians

6:54

hundred and call the shots as can how i read the same

6:57

it's last thing

6:59

we saw more kind of warnings coming out the administration

7:02

including one intelligence assessment that russia

7:04

could see sees kiev's the capital

7:06

of ukraine of ukraine matter of days and fifty

7:08

thousand civilian casualties could

7:11

suffer in a russian invasion or two

7:13

thousand casualties across the board i'm

7:15

so administration continuing to to be the

7:17

drumbeat though the

7:20

tree line and thing for having the on fire

7:22

have a lot of other stuff

7:25

, want to start with his last one because we've seen a

7:27

lot of warnings new warnings about

7:29

russian false flags videos could be

7:31

used as a pretext for division warnings

7:34

about the imminence of an invasion warning about

7:36

nova casualties for a press

7:38

buttons and even that americans and leave ukraine

7:41

would you make of you know somebody

7:44

covered foreign policy and politics this

7:46

is a bit of a new tack to be this transparent about

7:48

intelligence we have that something or

7:50

how is that in your mind affecting the

7:54

the politics around this and that kind of

7:56

international the palm serum wow anything

7:59

there are certain

8:00

when you're that explicit about potential casualty

8:02

is an when you're that explicit about

8:05

how threatened the

8:07

old world order is i think

8:09

it was referred to in the washington post as potentially

8:11

cold war two it certainly

8:13

gets the the message across to an american audience

8:15

and to an international audience by tend to think

8:17

it's also a strategic right like nobody

8:20

wants to go to war in ukraine on

8:23

and

8:25

if i'm not speaking the couldn't as it is

8:27

to anyone also just to say this is gonna

8:29

be really really battery so you wanna do this

8:31

and

8:32

one have to take i think it's variants of

8:34

much a hallmark of the by the administration

8:36

which has been the radically transparent

8:39

about all kinds of negotiations sometimes

8:41

it's worked out for them sometimes it hasn't you

8:43

know all the negotiation on the hill

8:46

around all that better all that

8:48

sort of i'm the president who's gonna roll up

8:50

his sleeves and get in the mud pit i'm the person

8:52

that's gonna tell i'm going to be honest with you

8:54

that was biden the whole kind of tagline

8:57

that flying through the foreign policy but

8:59

again again it has a strategic

9:02

well as well which is less convinced

9:04

food and this is gonna be so painful

9:06

that car or miles is where is

9:08

the door he should pick if you well

9:11

i don't know it i'm in a dome nobody is enjoying this

9:13

more than vladimir boot right like i deserve

9:15

keep your feasting on it there's a reason zabel

9:18

was so big it's delicious

9:20

the him i mean everybody something

9:22

about nato everyone said he about ukraine

9:24

everyone's talking about the power of russia

9:27

that would you want

9:29

yeah it didn't seem question because on the

9:31

one hand i admire elements estrogen

9:33

the censored it doesn't allow

9:35

russia to control the information marmot my

9:37

taxi and the strange where the us has been controlling

9:40

the information by putting all the stuff out

9:44

and you know give you a pretext to try to get

9:46

the europeans on board with things like sanctions

9:48

before the war happens because you're

9:51

talking about it before and not just

9:53

after on the other hand you

9:56

know it does make couldn't just the center

9:58

global tension were to something he loves to the

10:00

i guess questionnaire for you though is the

10:03

someone who might watch his politics the

10:06

matter and up at all but they've been this explicit

10:09

did something might happen if it happens like

10:11

if there's an invasion there

10:13

, people more prepared for this and therefore

10:16

won't be as biggest surprise or

10:19

and maybe people understand that the by the missus

10:21

endeavoring they could or

10:23

does it make it look like you know you've been warned about something

10:25

and you couldn't stop and i mean i know politics

10:28

is secondary concern to ukraine but ah

10:31

woody ah woody think this does in

10:33

the event of innovation wow i

10:36

mean i'm going to be incredibly

10:38

sad call

10:41

i just think the american audience is

10:43

really none to the idea of

10:46

able to use overseas and

10:48

total fees incurred in a military

10:51

conflict i'm like that's kind

10:53

of been our pastor for an

10:55

infant i've been an adult their vengeance

10:57

didn't you know and arm i

10:59

think what move evident is the idea that

11:02

this is cold war two that this is bigger

11:04

than just i mean not that fifty thousand

11:06

casualties as isn't anything short

11:08

of horrifying but this is a reordering

11:10

of the world this is a new existential

11:12

threat from our had that has residents because

11:14

basically to get the

11:17

american audience engage

11:18

the and concerned you just it's like a terrible

11:21

theory the blockbuster movies that pyrotechnics

11:23

have to be bigger the the onscreen

11:25

crashes have to be bigger the sound has to be louder

11:28

and that's where we've gotten in terms of

11:30

our military engagement for people to truly

11:32

care for it to become a political issue

11:35

for better or for worse on

11:38

i think so basically so afraid there's

11:40

no us troops involved in a conflict

11:43

the degree of interest from the american people even

11:46

if this is a large conflagration

11:48

and and your maybe more

11:50

minimal than people might think

11:51

i mean i think it's i listen i'm not code

11:54

signing split the is able to residents residents

11:56

but yeah i mean i think that's where i am

11:58

in from my work in

12:00

journalism my you

12:02

know

12:03

understanding as an american

12:05

audiences appetite and interesting the

12:07

policy and you know the american military

12:10

for didn't military in general

12:12

like it is something that really to roughly us

12:15

off some and feels like something that they they

12:17

are palpably afraid of we're excited

12:19

by it just doesn't hit with the same residents

12:21

i'm here think you know that the peril

12:23

for the by demonstration is what you mentioned

12:26

before could it be

12:28

as as a political hydraulic

12:30

because he they've telegraph so much

12:32

of what could happen and if they are unable to

12:34

prevent those things from unfolding i mean

12:36

you know you can bet that it will be withdrawn

12:39

and as afghanistan part to and the republican

12:41

party will say look at look at the good look

12:43

at amateur hour here look at look at this mess

12:46

even if the american audiences and particularly

12:49

hair about what's happening there

12:51

are political ramifications that can be

12:53

uncooperative back home by

12:55

a party that has shown no signs of having

12:57

any inhibitions to scrape

12:59

at the bottom of the the lowest barrel

13:02

yeah and , seen seen

13:06

out there with prudent schultz

13:09

the gym sensors due to go gym moscow

13:12

in a few days himself

13:13

ii boris johnson you'll get your in a second

13:16

when to ukraine not to russia by

13:18

the head is cause of buena at

13:20

once with your present of this way to leaders

13:22

alex what are you doing any

13:25

main take ways from the difference to form see her

13:27

it's like

13:28

the west side story you reboot you know

13:30

even said oh it's

13:32

that the classics maybe they'll be kind of

13:34

as good as the original but i'm

13:36

not i don't know i gotta say ban

13:38

is that they've been thrown into the deep

13:40

and pretty i'm in in and you've

13:43

you've mentioned this on this why did

13:45

we got a great time for any of them play like

13:48

the chrome has a real action shots as

13:50

brand new you know energy obesity

13:53

old in germany when it comes to russia

13:55

biden is where he is you know ah

13:57

domestically on my

13:59

heart the to them but i

14:01

i i

14:02

there's something happening here at that reminds me

14:04

of what happens at home these as

14:06

he put and and the far right

14:08

wing which is due out landis

14:10

phone

14:12

change what is normal way that's

14:14

less than a playbook that's being run

14:16

here any of us in canada

14:19

ray any reason other than

14:21

he is working from the same set of new

14:23

standards now we're discussing

14:25

whether you to inflict those were tougher the contours

14:28

of ukrainians of run it and we're talking about you

14:30

know it's a subtle the idea of

14:32

nato expanse and were to you know everything's

14:35

on the table because fruit and has amassed one

14:37

hundred and thirty thousand troops on the border and

14:39

as loud i'm i'm go ahead and

14:41

cross me and like that reminds me

14:43

of i mean it's it's the brinkmanship politics

14:45

or so reminiscent of everything trump did

14:48

of what's happening in canada with the truckers it's like

14:50

basically go in as of january sex

14:53

go in there with there craziest most ridiculous

14:56

awful outlandish over

14:58

the top

14:59

the strategy and reset

15:01

the goalposts so that they then have to talk to

15:03

you about whether or not january six was legitimate

15:05

political discourse so that they then have to talk

15:08

to you about like just house softened you

15:10

know where ukraine is where nato

15:12

is what

15:13

the unwinding we made you on that front

15:15

mean these are not compositions that anybody thought

15:18

we were going to be having five years ago but

15:20

we are

15:21

i think it's really smart i mean because there there

15:23

is something to this idea what

15:26

prudent doesn't geopolitics is kind

15:28

of what the far right doesn't politics generally yeah

15:30

as a disruptor in a someone passing norms

15:32

and making people just and and the same

15:35

way that no political leaders in this

15:37

country have struggled to respond to the

15:39

emergence of our trump

15:41

be and right you know you biden

15:44

trying to take a pretty from line with prudent you got mccrone

15:46

trying to be there the guys the

15:49

negotiate anything you negotiate even if russia

15:51

isn't interested negotiating yeah

15:53

yeah you've got souls just kind of

15:55

almost kind of this thing

15:58

could have enough trying

16:00

something different and it's hard

16:02

when you're dealing with somebody in bodmer produces

16:05

not playing by any recognized rules

16:07

right yeah ah

16:09

, continue to think like people should be watching

16:12

terms of timeline of this year

16:14

that they year that of the olympics is

16:17

also around the time in russia said that they'd be

16:19

ending this military exercise and ballers which

16:21

is the pretext for them to have a whole bunch troops are they could always

16:23

has given their anyway but , still feels

16:25

to me like to know about

16:27

, from now we

16:31

release my no more but padilla

16:33

person knows is is fun or couldn't let

16:35

go the thing now he knows right

16:38

this is interesting to me because

16:42

in the past the time it

16:44

actually didn't support the annexation

16:46

of crimea publicly for instance because

16:49

, the predicate of territory

16:52

be next and lost his and lost

16:54

something that china once endorse this

16:56

parts of know what they think are parts

16:58

of china i taiwan ah

17:00

that that new the principal sovereignty

17:03

is sacrosanct to them but this was a

17:05

different statement in which he really seem

17:07

to wrap himself around prudent give

17:10

him a lot of diplomatic cover their is references

17:12

to increased energy cooperation

17:14

with to be one way of russia tries

17:16

to prevent the impact of sanctions i

17:19

have to think that

17:22

if there's anyone in the world to farmer goodness

17:25

shared his intentions with outside of his

17:27

inner circle in russia would be does impact because

17:30

russia will need china need china

17:33

matches diplomatically by perhaps

17:35

again to have whether sanctions and if

17:37

he's gonna do something it wouldn't surprise me

17:39

if he the company to give

17:41

his he adds up to the other thing is it

17:43

wouldn't be a great look for years couldn't

17:46

went to beijing and then within a couple weeks

17:49

leaving you know invaded a country

17:51

without giving them a heads up on oh that's my my

17:53

guess of it i mean where

17:54

new and chilled as other people appear

17:56

to be by that joint statement at

17:59

which was at you know you outlined some of the

18:01

contours of that but like it

18:03

it didn't sit well with me

18:05

the this i have ever been obese

18:07

you don't like it really felt like the dark forces

18:10

are amassing even with that that

18:12

everyone's guy

18:12

the on mount body to poor higher

18:15

income for at is that what we're up off of

18:17

the day i mean look i wasn't i

18:19

can say i was surprised i think people

18:21

should recognize it with this went beyond

18:24

past russian chinese statements it's

18:26

really did feel like them langdon a marker

18:28

that okay we're now the alternative

18:31

world order here and we really don't care what

18:34

you guys think we're going to cooperate across the

18:36

board and that cooperation

18:38

is gonna be mainly based on this idea that there

18:40

the gonna spears influence right so it's china

18:43

telling us stay out of asia russia

18:46

, us yes yeah to europe or the stay out of

18:48

the former soviet union and

18:51

deaths the world rent so not

18:53

a surprise but seeing it kind of on

18:56

paper at such

18:58

a tense moment yeah that

19:00

that's that's gonna be the new world were

19:02

in here and that means lot less moving

19:04

and for us allow okay she

19:06

didn't think not

19:08

as much a fan of botox as

19:10

a five mental

19:11

the pair no no lawyer getting he

19:13

has a better dermatologist made maybe

19:15

maybe he's , great her her

19:18

my also to the one

19:21

okay making the transition in a weird

19:23

thing about around diplomacy which

19:25

were i was once part of his address in china actually

19:27

part of the ongoing negotiations again

19:29

new nuclear deal and are supportive of it so

19:32

goes to remind you to strange geopolitics

19:34

can be on the update

19:36

on this is it talks have resumed today

19:39

in vienna between

19:42

in the iranians and the p

19:44

five plus one that's united states and or

19:46

european allies in russia and china the

19:49

, soon and direct talks with the wrong but the

19:52

communications by run that that may happen this round

19:55

a lot of mood music that something akin

19:57

could happen in the next of weeks in terms of a deal

20:00

including the united states are

20:02

under secretary tony blinken leadership

20:05

out sign several waivers or that

20:07

allowed for sanctions to be relieved on

20:10

some of the ran civilian nuclear activities assists

20:12

something that was a part of the last deal and is seen

20:15

as i think i'd have a common spilling measure to demonstrate

20:17

the researchers buy one get back new deal joe

20:20

, also talked to the israeli prime minister

20:22

for the first time around the side done it it

20:25

that call by nelson to kinda that he be

20:27

traveling israel later this year i'm gonna

20:29

be interesting alex sister in an in but

20:33

the israeli government continues to put out statements

20:35

against the iran deal they're not nearly

20:37

as hyperbolic or histrionic as

20:40

be been a nose statements used nose be and

20:43

frankly we've had this kind of course of israeli security

20:46

experts say that pulling out

20:48

of the deal was bad for israel are nonetheless

20:50

we saw you know some the usual suspects laying

20:53

down there markers a pack putting out

20:55

semen supposing it returned a deal the

20:58

the hawkish the want to

21:00

call matt german , relations

21:02

for democrats bob menendez who pose

21:04

a deal the first time around us a warning consists of

21:07

out somewhere wanted to put this question us we

21:10

all know what iran yours the

21:13

with litigated exhaustively

21:15

the terms of it would seem always like

21:18

what the deal with him what it's like without you'll

21:20

recall a massive political

21:22

fight in twenty fifteen when

21:25

, deal was reached for last month's

21:27

right right recall it as well

21:29

as suppose

21:32

years later i thought israeli a

21:34

former mossad operatives like

21:36

you know spying on me because of it's but anyway

21:39

would have links there are like a dime

21:41

a dozen best yeah when who

21:43

among us is not as well among us but

21:46

, do you think you think that

21:48

the political debate in fallout

21:51

and focus on this will be this time

21:53

around near the sequel of the iran

21:55

deal vs last time i do think

21:57

it'll be as intense or just kind of

21:59

and we've already seen as movie

22:01

no i don't think it'll be as and sense to me part

22:03

of it was so motivated by

22:05

it was such a vindictive maneuver

22:08

when it was made in our like went with

22:10

when he was reverse and it

22:12

was so much part of a broader portfolio

22:15

just destroying everything that obama

22:17

dead right really in principle that was it

22:19

i mean of course yes it's that

22:21

there were detractors but really i

22:23

mean from school was to destroy

22:25

everything obama belt and that into

22:28

a became there is an emotional that

22:30

was it was kind of an emotional center at

22:32

the heart of of of all that maneuvering i

22:34

think

22:36

now it kind of like i'm sorta is in a

22:38

little bit of disbelief that weren't even negotiating given

22:40

the fact that this is clearly a political football

22:42

that gets moved around from administration to administration

22:44

and if you're looking at you know joe biden candidacy

22:47

and twenty twenty four her of his username gonna

22:49

be around to make good on

22:51

the terms of the deal they

22:53

simply because it's been else it's

22:56

been agreed upon and then reversed and we're now back

22:58

at the negotiating table is it's sort of

23:00

has us you know it's it's tuesday it must

23:02

be that that quality to

23:04

and i mean i think look

23:06

at i don't want to say

23:08

only negative things about our

23:11

country and

23:12

out into the appetite for i'm

23:14

, to specify that the specifics of

23:17

of very important negotiations

23:19

but i think this one is one where

23:21

there's gonna be certain corners that rejoicing that deal

23:23

being made

23:25

and actually hopefully the fact

23:27

that it won't i don't think be

23:30

eugene how whole increases

23:32

the chances of survival fight the last the endzone

23:34

object the greater the you know it's

23:37

it's like obama care of the flagship seems

23:39

as though you're just keep it around long enough

23:41

people get you to stop hundred thousand

23:43

haven't the bank like nobody's like that repealing obamacare

23:45

this point right so that that

23:47

you know i think that would be device i'd give on the

23:49

argument to make for them which is that

23:52

the same way that once people tried to repeal

23:54

obamacare it looked better tearing

23:57

up the jcp way the around your me

23:59

to look a lot better

24:00

their arguments are just be a lot

24:02

it was working sumpter up

24:04

and look what happened they run into mocha nuclear weapon

24:06

a room with the door couple times let's go back

24:08

to the same move on right and no get into

24:10

drag it out

24:12

keep keep it quiet do

24:15

is keep quiet and like

24:17

let's just pretend everybody thinks it's still not

24:19

in place don't tell

24:21

you the healthy

24:22

yes yeah well it would be

24:25

you know would be earth as a success of syndicate

24:27

the of excite progress as which is something

24:29

that joe biden has had on foreign policy

24:32

in a while and cause afghanistan of forces

24:34

and complicated business another success

24:36

at it announced this week was

24:39

the killing of isis leader abu

24:41

ibrahim alpha see me all crises the

24:44

i gotta

24:44

they they had a rolled up your tongue for a very

24:46

melissa us the you know this is a character

24:49

i first

24:50

learn about back and twenty four team because

24:52

he was gonna be the leader of the effort

24:54

to commit genocide against the city's that's

24:56

the kind of guy this is an ,

24:58

out of iraq iraq was killed

25:01

in a us counterterrorism read on wednesday

25:03

in northwest syria which is a region of siri

25:06

williams operate in the

25:08

most substantial raid we've done in the country

25:11

since the twenty nine operation to kill the last

25:13

isis leader i could get much greater

25:15

good known as founder of of

25:18

, really baghdadi baghdadi

25:20

blew himself up with a suicide

25:22

vest presumably as us forces approached which

25:25

killed a number of women and children with him

25:28

according to to us officials

25:31

alex what do we make of this

25:34

do does this the

25:36

you know the

25:37

in event at once would have been i think a big

25:39

story yeah felt like a kind

25:41

of came and went in a day or two the

25:44

do you think people are still falling the the isis

25:46

fight so the understand

25:49

is a threat from isis like what was

25:51

your reaction

25:52

well i mean i guess i don't really understand the magnitude

25:54

of the threat from isis three on one hand

25:56

is isis race which is their own sister

25:59

a lizard brain

26:00

that that is not a good organization and

26:02

eat out that the cutting off of it's head is

26:04

in theory at the thing for national security

26:06

but it sounds at least in one

26:09

of the things about isis which always seem so

26:11

infallible was the idea that it's like a hydra

26:13

you cut off one head another one grows mm

26:16

so you'll never actually be able to dismantle

26:18

the entire operation because of the cellular organisation

26:21

and organisation guess i wonder

26:22

you know in your understanding understand like

26:25

isis doesn't isn't the calif it it's

26:27

account faith in me i only write it has no

26:29

holdings as such and i

26:31

remember at the beginning of either

26:33

the the dawn of al qaeda

26:36

and then certainly with isis everyone talks

26:38

about the new model of terrorism being one where

26:40

it was there was no titular leadership there was no

26:42

real leadership everything was you know

26:45

a grassroots organization

26:48

and could therefore never be dismantled has

26:51

has isis is defeat in

26:53

away the proven

26:55

that theory that that's the new models terrorism

26:57

do you still do you still need a leader

26:59

to actually be successful because it sounds

27:01

like while quraishi

27:03

it quraishi certainly ah

27:06

i think a big deal for the by the ministration

27:09

it's did not i think really register

27:11

you know broadly it's not like he's can be able to run on not

27:13

for reelection arm though

27:15

the truck the his seizure and

27:18

killing was dramatic under his desk

27:20

as dramatic but i kind of just wonder you're meaningfully

27:22

from international security standpoint does

27:24

it like what what's the model what do we learn from

27:26

this i think look baghdad

27:29

a the first new ice as leaders

27:31

killed

27:32

he was associated with establishment of the

27:34

cow fate in those successes he

27:37

, of became an iconic figure he's the guy who declared

27:39

the calafate when the controlled others territory

27:42

and iraq and syria so he was both

27:44

an operational leader and and more of a symbolic

27:46

meter in this guy was right so

27:49

i don't think that this think that to taking

27:51

out some i'm like that who is they're

27:53

seen as if you have at the vanguard of when

27:55

i was doing the reality is right now

27:57

isis poses a threat largely in

28:00

in the region in syria and iraq

28:02

i'm in their ability to project power has

28:05

been diminished by this relentless campaign

28:07

they've been under look a leader matters

28:09

right it's the person who knows you

28:11

know out , are the trains running

28:14

running the to meet the the benefit might also

28:16

be that they went to his compounds are they got

28:18

a bunch information presumably hard drives phones

28:21

that might tell you a lot about the current state of

28:23

isis i'm so it isis i'm

28:25

have the same impact as it

28:28

may once wouldn't because isis is now when it once was

28:30

enough but it's it's an indication

28:32

that this was so something are doing

28:36

the i was struck by the fact that you

28:38

know in a healthy way america may be moving

28:40

beyond the can hyper fixation

28:43

on the war on terrorism

28:45

that did something like this happens is why

28:47

did the war on

28:48

changing to write a like get it that

28:51

i'm just looking forward to what they find from crashes

28:54

house then they find a bunch of like far side

28:56

cartoons at is another man's residents

28:59

yeah there was i mean you don't have to go back

29:01

and sec they were there were rumors of porn

29:05

video when

29:05

in fact you have copies of what they still would

29:07

well a that she got

29:09

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sit on these companies i got i want

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33:50

okay so we're going to dead yet turning to

33:52

a different flavor of of extremism

33:55

we've obviously dealt with like a far right

33:57

anti vax to and

33:59

on

34:01

in an aggressive if you're in the u s you cover

34:03

this a lot on the circus getting out

34:05

and and in gonna going into these communities

34:08

squint i'm a canada alex

34:10

which are we we don't talk to about enough

34:12

i love can it on the show i've a lot of friends in

34:14

canada the

34:16

on how you feel i can i bring him back to that now

34:21

if you have been watching the said a corner of

34:23

your i you've noticed that

34:25

there's been a massive demonstrations

34:28

strike from canadian truckers

34:31

center , nod or the capital the mayor

34:34

of ottawa had to declare a state of emergency response

34:36

to more than a week of truckers protests

34:39

it also involve them them

34:41

horns and keeping people up all up yob

34:44

see night traffic people

34:46

urinating on statues race

34:49

or races signs of your burger

34:51

is this started as a

34:53

and opposition to a vaccine

34:55

mandate for truckers coming from canada the united

34:57

states and a kind of morphed into much other

34:59

stuff and opposition to justin trudeau

35:02

and the kind of me a pandemic fatigued

35:04

me seen here the

35:07

greatest development is that the the road

35:09

linking as as the busiest

35:11

link frankly between canada and united states

35:13

the ambassador bridge to detroit which

35:16

the auto industry depends on for long term effects

35:18

troopers are balking matt so now this is nypd

35:20

and seven even greater economic effects tardy

35:23

obviously even the economy and ottawa

35:26

justin trudeau has your drawn

35:29

a line you won't negotiate with the truckers

35:31

he said there's and a blockade our economy our democracy

35:34

in our fellow citizens daily lives and

35:36

this has to stop alex

35:40

duties canadian trekkers remind you of

35:43

maggie people that you've seen

35:45

, the united states talked in the i'd say it's

35:48

it's you reassessing whether canada is on

35:50

the list of places it's you might move

35:52

to america descends into

35:54

an authoritarian to serbia what

35:56

is going on and can't this

35:59

is the right way the version of intersectionality

36:02

a

36:03

i think right we

36:05

don't want to we don't want the vaccine mandates

36:08

were racists oh i'm sure some of

36:10

these i dunno where the urinating on the statues

36:12

comes from but this is like you know basically

36:14

their version of that i'm yeah

36:16

absolutely this reminds me of you

36:19

i of a in

36:22

about the on

36:27

basically to and

36:30

stop the election if joe biden

36:32

one it stated in some way with

36:34

arms arm and we saw the harvest

36:36

of that on january sex and the

36:39

truckers you're absolutely remind me of

36:41

that first of all you

36:43

know there's

36:44

the generalized rage riot and

36:47

you see that worn out in their list of demands which

36:49

have just gone up the like you know

36:51

day and flagpole from basically

36:53

repeal the vaccine mandate to all covert protections

36:56

been to be reversed the just completely outlandish

36:59

on demands on a

37:01

willful disconnect with the

37:04

world as facts figures in reality the

37:06

arm but also occur

37:08

the lottery and a certain

37:10

perverted joy and all like

37:12

i remember after i talked to that these guys

37:15

we not a remarkably the

37:19

very upfront canada and the say

37:21

said they walked away saying we're

37:24

gonna scare the shit out of everybody

37:26

is that and yeah there's

37:28

a there's a really unnecessary

37:30

s joy that do they

37:32

they on the

37:34

are they gain from some really aren't

37:37

making people scared making people uncomfortable

37:39

i'm talking shit out basically on and

37:42

and that's what the travelers are doing for

37:44

i mean they love that this is all unfolding in a kind

37:46

of resident a lot of these kind of residential

37:48

neighborhoods you know their civil servants

37:50

that live in this area better whose lives

37:52

have been have ended by this constant noise

37:55

and traffic and chaos on

37:58

and part of the whole thing all

38:00

the or people and falling hot tub there's like

38:02

a sort of rowdy carnival

38:04

like atmosphere which is something you see it every

38:06

trump rally right there the and

38:09

i've done and bouncy i was using the yeah

38:11

yeah yeah yeah i mean it reminds me

38:13

so much like if you ever go to a trump rally

38:15

and i'm not suggesting you shot but if you do

38:18

you'll be struck by and i wrote about the where

38:20

the atlantic that it has this kind of old timey

38:22

revival quality like i

38:24

read it so much of this is based

38:27

and i'm a real feeling

38:29

of disconnection and loneliness and

38:31

the the crumbling of institutions like the church

38:34

like people have found belonging

38:36

and purpose and unity and even if that

38:38

unity and belonging and purpose is rooted in something

38:41

inherently dark and a

38:43

destructive it's still uniting

38:45

them and they they are happy to be together

38:48

and that's why the bond is so unbreakable

38:50

with from space and trump or

38:52

you know the right wing truckers and canada

38:55

they are the purpose is not just

38:57

about cove it it sounds just about you

38:59

know getting and trudeau's being

39:02

thorns and his side and getting cool vid

39:04

mandates relax it's it's it's

39:06

about being together in this movement

39:08

jan having this time in the sun

39:11

and and to wing it and

39:13

i see absolute on cross pollination

39:15

between that movement fair and what's happening in

39:17

the united states and it wouldn't surprise me at

39:19

all to see and exactly

39:21

similar thing happen

39:24

here in the us to sliced you know

39:26

the anti mass protests i was in australia

39:28

the summer

39:29

don't go there i'm sorry as

39:31

a other julia fans there

39:33

were anti map there were anti mass

39:36

protests in the street and all the australian

39:38

than he said this is because of you fucking americans

39:40

young people watch each other do these

39:42

crazy stunts and

39:45

the more attention they get the more it's like

39:47

oh do that yeah that would be

39:49

a good thing to do

39:50

the for guessing yeah because there's been

39:52

a expressions the solidarity from

39:54

like that the usual suspects you'd expect your on

39:56

the right the canadian friend even send me

39:59

a picture

40:00

like someone was telling of know a plane

40:02

was doing like of like a yeah letters

40:04

and air and florida korea the

40:06

capital of mega then you're

40:08

canadian truckers rule one

40:11

, the inching things as a canadian right isn't as consolidated

40:14

around this insanity as the american right and kind

40:16

of coincidence of these protests are

40:18

the leader the conservatives they're in a tool stepped

40:20

down as essential he blossom

40:23

voted no confidence in his party skews

40:25

the get more moderate face of that party

40:28

and he can have set on the way out you know is kind

40:30

of like implicit

40:33

statements of like we should not be crazy

40:35

enough a but this may

40:37

you know this may split the canadian right or

40:39

maybe it'll consolidate things around crazy

40:41

and and you know you're right they're going to be there

40:44

can be feeding off of the sport they

40:46

get some the us another place

40:48

where there's a crazy populace

40:50

right wing reader magic kingdom

40:54

so , started when you get this

40:56

gets a little darker but i have i been on

40:58

a lighter note couple boris johnson

41:00

updates updates was reportedly told his

41:02

new director of communications but

41:04

i will i and

41:07

he told him this by singing lines from

41:09

the gore again or song yeah as he was

41:11

offended to the post is

41:13

of course they did i like

41:15

they say that with a and inflection at the end

41:17

of your voice as if that surprised what is the something

41:20

about the prime minister of england singing

41:22

seventies discuss songs his new indications

41:25

director onto you been what a question

41:27

obama that too

41:29

where year better singing voice but they the question

41:31

i have for years would you rather attend a boris

41:34

johnson hosted garden party number

41:36

ten at the height of lockdown or

41:38

would you rather be in a room or boris johnson

41:40

was singing to you i will survive oh my

41:42

god no has that once in the

41:45

private concert the

41:48

i actually did the show a favor

41:50

and googled some of the lyrics

41:52

to i will survive and and what's so

41:54

interesting is it's a it's a

41:57

survival it's have some rivals on obviously

41:59

isn't it he rebuked

42:01

i feel bad for the communications director

42:04

because the chorus of it is

42:06

go on now go walk out the door

42:08

just turn around now cause you're not welcome

42:10

anymore the out a new cancer

42:13

actor yeah the didn't hear

42:15

that he isn't real he

42:17

martin a the beat his his own drum budget

42:20

i'm just gonna guess to that does not a lot of shelf

42:22

life or a coms director for process

42:24

the i could be playing a widespread effort area

42:27

you're getting away last

42:28

internet a bus or something now one

42:30

of those things is where to go little bit of a darker turn

42:34

it , recent days there is a scary

42:36

of amateur starmer though labour leader and

42:38

friend of a pod david lammy for kind of surrounded

42:40

by an angry mob who

42:43

were shouting at them calling traders

42:45

calling them up them a pedophile

42:47

product protectors of a backstory

42:49

is that boris

42:51

johnson made a shot at starmine

42:54

perlman recently accusing the failing

42:56

to prosecute a former

42:58

prominent british television personality

43:01

jimmy saville a ,

43:03

me if i'm pronouncing that wrong wrong

43:05

this guy become famous in the sixties but was

43:07

later revealed to be a child a ah

43:10

and prosecutor said decided not to prosecute

43:12

him because of insufficient evidence starmer

43:14

was prosecutor but did make but decision go

43:17

the the accusation the including from some

43:20

in the conservative party some and drip or

43:22

sounds as party said nearby stirring

43:24

up this kind of rage it's starmer he put

43:26

him potentially risk and people saw that on television

43:29

or one m p and one

43:31

, boer senses on party tweeted a

43:34

pm apologize please let's stop this drift

43:36

towards a trumpet inside politics from becoming

43:38

the norm we had better than this that

43:40

was conservative tobias ellwood on

43:44

our

43:45

dc bourse or

43:47

, reaching for different ways to survive singing

43:51

agree charges as protecting pedophiles

43:53

isn't nearly as in the kitchen

43:55

sink strategy

43:56

exactly as they had you see this working out for

43:58

force island the man i

44:00

mean

44:02

history is any that i think he served as

44:04

i don't i mean i just truly don't know i

44:07

think politics think the state the reward

44:11

insanity everybody's become five

44:13

to seventeen percent more crazy around

44:15

the world everywhere right canada

44:18

the nice place yeah is like a hotbed

44:21

of insurrection like the prime

44:23

minister of england eat you and i grew up

44:25

in the eighties and nineties that ledger the price

44:28

what is happening like or at first

44:30

of all i something that over the festive for scotland

44:32

of the prime minister manages think

44:34

we cling to this idea of

44:36

sort of institutional

44:39

gentility that that people are going

44:42

to play by the rules because the rules of the thing that thought

44:44

them into office you know the system gotham

44:46

their the system is what they're tasked with managing

44:49

and yet we , to only

44:51

want people who break things on

44:53

you know and i would see that to some degree on both

44:55

sides of the aisle there's this this desire for

44:58

yell

45:00

someone who is not is is gwinnett carry

45:02

the shackles off and on

45:04

you know johnson's incredibly idiosyncratic

45:07

he's completely unafraid and

45:09

i think

45:11

you know politicians who were completely unafraid

45:13

and willing to do anything are formidable

45:16

adversaries i guess in a way when

45:19

you think

45:20

i think i mean he could take a big hit

45:24

i think that the

45:26

you normally take a pager what you said earlier i because

45:28

i mention the same thing and in it be sent a letter

45:30

piece about the need for joy

45:32

the fight against trump is i'm here the

45:34

same thing applies to trudeau and starmer

45:36

right like boris johnson at

45:38

least used to make things look fanatical too far

45:41

with the partying i , stormers got

45:43

a great line of critique hear that four shots

45:45

and cares more about himself the new right that's that's

45:47

a good line you can someone someone i

45:49

do think that it can just be kind of grim faced

45:52

anger and i'm not saying that said starmer trudeau doing

45:54

but if we get offended

45:56

and that's our reaction you

45:59

with johnson you can go out on the humor you

46:01

can make fun of a guy like you know and

46:03

have some fun in the fight against

46:06

this brand of populism rights create

46:08

the same kind of community that they're feeling

46:10

around the efforts to feed them right i

46:12

think that's what's gonna be necessary for

46:14

some like starmer to go that to

46:17

to not to prosecute the case against porous

46:19

butter to build a governing

46:21

majority for next time you know

46:23

yeah humor is distinctly missing and i think

46:25

i understand why because of the status so

46:27

serious it's really hard to be funny about

46:29

it said you know how the biggest punch

46:31

that was other landed on donald trump was and barack

46:33

obama talked about him starring in the new season

46:36

of weren't as a new block or whatever was that he

46:38

said the white house correspondents' dinner silver

46:40

is a incredibly potent weapon

46:42

on in all these sites

46:45

will work for no good way to transition

46:47

to serve was just so i just making

46:50

us as they had not at all as their

46:52

tommy's really good at these transitions and

46:54

i'm some been trying but on this one

46:56

i tell your we'll test audio

46:58

i'm just be me the , the hosts

47:00

you're you're you're much more expert analysis yourself

47:03

rather rather you and i

47:06

have been friends for a long time and one thing that we've

47:08

a long talk about as is burma is

47:11

come from a burmese background on your

47:13

mom's i've written about written extensively

47:16

i worked on it

47:18

you actually interviewed me back in the day from from

47:20

burma and

47:23

we've obviously watched this is basically

47:25

just past the one year anniversary of

47:28

the coup that brought the burmese military back

47:31

into power and saw uncensored she

47:33

and we elected government

47:35

scattered , in prison prison

47:39

been a rough year for the people of

47:41

burma people burma yes

47:45

the the military is in power but everything

47:47

is going wrong going

47:50

chiefly the burmese people are suffering

47:52

thousand people have either been killed

47:54

or disappeared or imprisoned

47:57

but also the economy

47:59

collapsing people are working schools

48:01

are literally closed of the currencies

48:04

plunged ah the economy

48:06

is thirty percent smaller than

48:08

, before the coup their blackouts

48:11

the economists had a good summary of basically

48:13

all the ways in which is it and harmful

48:16

for the people of burma and

48:18

though they've shown much more

48:20

resistance and i think the coup meters thought

48:22

there would be there's a kind of unity government

48:24

in exile there's some armed opposition

48:27

and parts of the country what

48:31

, what is your sense alex as someone who

48:33

cares about this personally he's looked at it professionally

48:37

how should we be thinking about the

48:39

future and in the timeline

48:43

which this nightmare might and and and

48:45

and and how are you thinking about this is

48:47

someone you in the past the diaspora

48:49

was important supporting on some said she and

48:51

and her political party and i'll be a

48:55

what does your fortunes on a year or out from

48:57

because oh i mean it's

49:00

if just burma is so shrouded in heartbreak

49:02

and minds you know in my mind

49:04

for obvious reasons obvious

49:07

think this situation this mean it's mean

49:09

it's bad what's happening there right i've

49:12

been incredibly heartened to see how

49:16

the know

49:17

students and activists have responded

49:20

so courageously so bravely arm

49:22

against really all odds but i think

49:24

the whole you know the clarity

49:27

the clarity the late nineties

49:29

was pretty profound there is alfonso see

49:32

this woman who had won the nobel prize

49:34

the peace prize in ninety one from

49:37

under house arrest couldn't accept the prize

49:39

you know her story was so it is like

49:41

star wars will agree with the good fall

49:43

on the bomb bomb bomb on

49:46

the world with able to kind of focus on

49:48

burma because i think those lines were so

49:50

clear she was such a compelling hero and

49:52

the evil of the military junta was so

49:55

on hannibal in

49:57

a while i'm i'm so easily

50:00

the situation and then i was something she

50:02

comes to power effectively and

50:04

is someone that effectively sanctions the genocide

50:06

of the running a minority and the muslim

50:08

minority in on the

50:10

western part of southwestern part of burma

50:12

and them water engines

50:14

or try it for to try to placate

50:17

the military to try you know the military that she wasn't

50:19

an existential threat to that well and all

50:21

that that that didn't work out

50:23

yeah but also because there's a strong strain of

50:25

booze it's just not assume that as my grandson or

50:27

about that young about in my book

50:29

the i go check it out it's available on paper go act future

50:31

face to the of her the

50:34

and you know and something darker was

50:36

revealed about something more complicated was

50:38

revealed about the soul of us as itchy and

50:41

indeed the souls olbermann burma

50:43

raider like i was so ashamed

50:46

and so now we have we

50:48

have of fortune again but

50:50

we don't have the clarity of a

50:52

heroin and evildoer

50:55

we don't know i mean certainly so

50:57

cheese the government effectively

51:00

was better i think i mean

51:02

unless you're running our your mood in the country

51:04

you live without it there was an eighth grade

51:06

but like if it wasn't i mean they

51:09

were still genocidal are looking the other way

51:11

or diminishing genocide right at

51:13

best and that

51:16

not just being inconvenienced for it the

51:18

storytelling as burma also makes

51:21

the the outrage over the to

51:23

like a little bit less i am

51:25

et not for me but for other people i think

51:27

urgent because the people

51:29

that were toppled were doing bad shit too it

51:32

was gonna ask you questions though which is

51:34

the hopeful sign of the fall the opposition

51:36

that has emerged you

51:38

seen a burmese politicians

51:41

at you a buddhist burmese

51:44

really unite with the

51:46

ethnic minority groups in the country right and

51:48

for people of all this year there are a

51:51

lot of ethnic groups and and

51:53

in myanmar some

51:55

of whom have been fighting against the government

51:57

gets the military there for anyone trained and

52:00

have weapons yes and then you have weapons and which

52:02

is our when you're fighting the burmese military

52:04

yes but as i will say that that national

52:06

unity government as awesome

52:09

the seems about their hinge i liked it seems

52:11

to be a recognition that hey

52:14

if we want democracy we

52:16

after actually all come together across

52:18

of an ethnic groups and religious groups that

52:21

, just be that they're forced to do that

52:23

by circumstance but that

52:25

does feel like there's

52:28

something positive it's come out of this it's the forging

52:30

of a of an identity among now position

52:32

that is not just about one human being on sanctity

52:36

and it might be no more

52:39

a diverse and inclusive you are

52:42

strong a stronger whole listen because it's not

52:44

the worship of one but the it all that

52:46

attention ball and yeah i'm hopeful

52:48

acceptance oftentimes long

52:51

the , sort of more enlightened forces come to the

52:53

for the infighting and the squabbling

52:56

squabbling be pretty and plans but perhaps

52:58

because the stakes are so high because it's everything

53:01

so hard won in burma on

53:03

the urgency will be there to really unite

53:05

and a concerted effort i mean i'm having

53:07

a hard time saying something positive but

53:09

i completely agree with you ban of

53:12

the that the you know it know

53:14

, heart warming the heartwarming to

53:18

it it's you mealy mouthed to term but it it on

53:20

it's invigorating to see that happening

53:22

with those groups i just the two

53:24

hunter is in a general playing

53:26

their so bad they're so absolutely

53:28

fucking evil and they have so

53:31

much firepower and their same

53:33

will shoot children in the streets and

53:35

when you're faced with that

53:37

that he can have it all grassroots

53:39

citizen lead after the sled i'm

53:41

organizing is up against up against steep challenge

53:44

on my heart is with them obviously but

53:47

i'm you know it's

53:49

been a long ah the twentieth

53:51

and twenty first century's have been local and

53:53

yeah yeah for yeah well hopefully yeah

53:55

gets better as a goes i mean they want the i

53:57

would say is that governments should not

54:00

the life is cool regime

54:03

you know not just not just europe but so far

54:05

no us on the southeast asian neighbors you're

54:07

very important to me and mark steve

54:10

the they've been strong in some ways they've not allowed

54:12

min online the who deleted a come to

54:14

their some it's i think they can go farther

54:16

and to scan icing out myanmar altogether

54:19

as long as his government's air the reality

54:21

is now is this a terrible governments

54:24

for the people of myanmar but it's it's

54:26

not exactly a stable witnesses

54:29

in fact you seen a surge in a in

54:31

a spike in the drug trade and and

54:33

nazi the my refugee flows so

54:35

when things are going poorly in myanmar

54:37

it actually is bad for the neighbors so they have

54:40

well i've already lead best the succeed and

54:42

thing the only the beginning of

54:44

our conversation

54:45

well it on their i'm a new flag the story and

54:47

access kind , summing up there

54:50

has been the easiest beat the covers the

54:52

olympics said have started started

54:54

dutch reporter had a live shot

54:56

there was no mysteriously ended

54:59

by a by security

55:01

guy had passes read public

55:04

safety volunteer which isn't as a

55:06

way of looking way its looking heard

55:08

other international journal say

55:10

heard were followed harassed you

55:13

know in recent years and harder for in journals

55:15

years get visas alex your

55:18

journalist what so went

55:20

to china but the web designer what

55:22

what happens when a country that is

55:24

joe one the to richest and

55:26

most powerful countries in the world and has ever been

55:28

people it becomes literally

55:30

impossible to do journalism there and what

55:33

i guess he is a great strategic

55:35

or into of importance to all of our lives

55:38

here do our lives to markets and every

55:40

minute i mean yoke and

55:42

how do you cover events like the olympics that are basically propaganda

55:45

vehicles with regime that you can

55:48

read

55:48

that's the thing is there like this over

55:50

the olympics like what

55:52

was it a lot of i've sought of like a bob

55:55

sledding like what what are

55:58

they get aziz

56:00

they shouldn't and see and it's just

56:02

horrible indicator especially when you compare

56:04

it to beijing saucer in

56:06

, thousand and eight when they had the summer olympics

56:08

when it with i don't know if you remember that band that it

56:10

was like malcolm to try to was like a big

56:12

tories and ad for china and it was i have

56:15

this is the land of the ago gold

56:17

in eternity and you know prosperity

56:19

and edo great history and edo

56:21

is like the great wall the terracotta soldiers

56:23

came to life and we're extending their arms

56:25

welcoming you to you know i'm

56:28

to relish said to roll around in the history

56:30

of china and now it's so hasty doubt

56:33

doubt cameramen are getting clocked in the face and

56:35

you know it's just it's , it's

56:37

just the way the world's going i think

56:39

a little that way like objects you

56:41

don't feel like they need to prove anything to the last

56:44

a events the chinese lunar like they

56:46

have the winning hand that that

56:48

that is that that they can run the tables

56:50

and like fuck you and the

56:52

fourth estate and it is it's

56:54

terrifying indicator of

56:56

you know the , that

56:59

they intend on i

57:01

don't even think preserving is a word it's

57:04

a terrifying indicator of their attitude towards

57:06

freedom in general right at this is what they're doing

57:08

to journalists doing the west of the olympics

57:11

the i mean letting , think

57:13

the future looks like for those inside yeah and

57:15

for the weavers and for the taiwanese i mean

57:18

what do we what are we think but i'm

57:20

terrible thoughts it's it's and

57:22

in such a short time

57:24

yeah i mean i think it's a also means that

57:26

media companies we've seen

57:28

corporations every every thinking their

57:31

operations and in china because

57:33

this kinda stuff is gonna get worse not

57:35

better right and so he

57:37

have the capacity to put up

57:39

with this because you want in the market

57:42

because you want right or something

57:44

or what have you you know like that is just going to get harder

57:46

not easier and like so

57:49

much media

57:50

whether it's streaming media whether it's the

57:52

entertainment industrial complex his

57:54

arm contingent is predicated is

57:57

dying for in his hand is no get sell

57:59

it is the cape that effort even more yeah

58:02

i'm not in china yet my sales

58:04

are mostly and and their well

58:07

one place you could go is north korea where he

58:10

, and your kim young and was i've

58:12

recently after the kind of being outside a lot

58:14

recently appeared in

58:16

some propaganda videos having lost

58:18

having lot of weight or his writing the

58:21

white horse the kind of into

58:23

the sunset or

58:24

the forest one ,

58:26

him in a clip on on on the beach

58:29

on the horse looking at the sunset

58:31

i'm very romantic romania

58:33

sandals like all inclusive

58:36

getaway with or enough and florida

58:38

it's only a with kim jong and

58:42

yeah i'm in and north

58:44

korea and presumably not not

58:46

accessible to your eye for the on gangs

58:48

i'm not you the known for it's all inclusive

58:50

resort

58:51

are you from not no not yet but ah

58:54

yeah somebody said a couple more years

58:56

maybe we're gonna a trump trump hotel

58:59

delirious one the first will be a trumpet

59:01

i mean i can see a partnership rampart intercept

59:03

there's a lot of fun there are

59:05

lined monologue more lago pyongyang

59:09

yeah it , for me i

59:11

think i can see as i'd like you want him

59:13

that let you know that an arm in

59:16

the in the twenty ten

59:18

to twenty thirteen somewhere in there my screen

59:20

saver my desktop with poodle

59:23

the white horse to remember that photo he

59:25

was sure

59:25

oh yeah that's that's a good one that's a

59:27

classic yeah

59:28

that's their well well

59:31

we were all singing from the same him book if

59:33

you are a despotic leader the

59:36

new one as in elgin up your positive

59:38

get on a horse and on i don't know get

59:40

on a horse i am i don't

59:42

know i mean it it to me it's a lot dated but

59:44

yeah maybe it's a residence other animal

59:47

it's er it's romantic

59:49

alex were thank you for doing this work and so people

59:51

can follow you and all these this is what's coming

59:53

up a circus and wow

59:56

that well i'll be on msnbc

59:58

a lot next week the following

1:00:00

week i will be so

1:00:02

we begin shooting the circus at the end of the month

1:00:04

the season premiere is

1:00:06

on march sex ah

1:00:09

you can always find me on twitter and

1:00:11

alex wagner that

1:00:13

if you're on the north fork of long island and feel

1:00:15

like a pan roasting some sausages with me

1:00:17

for dinner tonight

1:00:19

the amount of i would love that i would love

1:00:21

that i'm few hours away but yeah i'll

1:00:23

see what i can do planes are fast fast

1:00:26

but i will be a phase or

1:00:28

i will thanks so much outsiders really appreciated

1:00:31

thank you my friend was always it

1:00:33

if it was always is always good

1:00:35

the it on my fear and it was great

1:00:38

it off with the well i will see

1:00:40

you and summer

1:00:41

msg me see our senior

1:00:44

sausages on the north shore one for

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alex please dot com please world

1:02:12

okay i am very pleased to welcome

1:02:15

to the podcast of the prime minister

1:02:17

western the attack house and mr thank you so

1:02:19

much for joining us thank you for having

1:02:23

so i want to start before we get

1:02:25

to russia just , give people

1:02:27

some context of the stone in politics because

1:02:30

your journeys kind of interesting and and

1:02:32

speak to some of the challenges and

1:02:34

putting coercion southern in your part of the world

1:02:37

world met a when you had already received

1:02:39

the most the in a national

1:02:41

election but you weren't able to form a coalition that

1:02:43

time they took the collapse of that government

1:02:46

few to finally take your positions

1:02:48

can you just explained a bit how are

1:02:50

you went from that first election to actually

1:02:52

becoming prime minister

1:02:55

well yes say i worked as an attorney

1:02:58

or so for for most of

1:03:00

my so working child working life

1:03:02

and and when i went to politics the first

1:03:04

time i'm a

1:03:07

the person on mandate that the second time

1:03:10

after i've been already a member

1:03:12

of the european parliament day i

1:03:14

am was standing okay

1:03:17

i was leader of the five

1:03:18

in their my party won the

1:03:20

election cycle the most so says

1:03:22

the as a person as a single an

1:03:25

nxt and them and

1:03:27

then

1:03:28

the i try to form a government

1:03:31

that was the other thirty seven

1:03:33

the baby and anger against

1:03:35

me a team have against be so i

1:03:37

didn't get to form a government and

1:03:40

, at a time on

1:03:42

on so after

1:03:45

two years when the government collapsed

1:03:47

and i got this said you

1:03:50

the government together but ah but

1:03:52

of course a and that

1:03:54

was the most difficult times meaning

1:03:56

that the the first day i took cosby

1:03:58

said already had that government

1:04:00

the eating at that i had to decide

1:04:02

on restrictions because of coffee and

1:04:05

and after that we have one crisis

1:04:07

after the other a covey has its luster

1:04:10

said that said we have energy crisis

1:04:12

which means that if if if you crisis energy

1:04:14

prices going really it up friend

1:04:17

and there are disturbing or

1:04:19

oh ranging up soon

1:04:21

huge issue for the people

1:04:23

and that we have the added security

1:04:26

crisis of we see on closing around

1:04:28

ukraine and definitely

1:04:30

very directly influence singular

1:04:32

affecting us is not

1:04:35

yeah no and and and for losers part of

1:04:37

what was disrupted the first time

1:04:39

was a far right party i'm

1:04:41

joining the because from the center so was

1:04:43

good a you're able to to ,

1:04:45

that suit as shifting

1:04:47

to the current security crisis crisis

1:04:50

before we get into that the issues is

1:04:52

i'm just curious what is the mood

1:04:54

in in a sony among the people how how

1:04:56

worried or people how close are they following

1:04:58

things how much do they feel like their

1:05:01

own securities implicated in not just

1:05:03

the people ukraine

1:05:06

well

1:05:08

we don't see any direct threat to

1:05:10

the as our borders or any military

1:05:12

threats we don't see and

1:05:15

the people are

1:05:18

from what i would say kill

1:05:22

a bad it's not really nervous

1:05:24

about this on what is happening

1:05:27

there but we are following very closely

1:05:29

because it definitely has an effect

1:05:32

on us on

1:05:34

our economy earners you know

1:05:37

security and them

1:05:39

and them or so

1:05:41

on on the possible

1:05:44

asylum seekers that my phone and

1:05:46

and everything thing or said the bigger picture

1:05:48

is really really not that said

1:05:50

good and

1:05:54

are people don't really

1:05:56

see the direct threat but there but at

1:05:58

the same time are we the

1:06:00

whatever i say doing

1:06:02

ukraine and and we look at look

1:06:04

at a day with us

1:06:05

the great worry and

1:06:07

so we try to

1:06:10

help ukraine help ukraine way we can

1:06:12

politically but also with the defense

1:06:15

us a means to

1:06:17

be tried to support them with our defense

1:06:20

because say if you look at the mets fan

1:06:22

ukraine is in the middle of europe

1:06:24

and each each not only if i said

1:06:27

that she trained but it's also a fight

1:06:29

about said the values my

1:06:31

a message doing this or why my son

1:06:33

has been doing this for some time

1:06:35

we think back you know crimea

1:06:37

if we think back on on

1:06:40

on and donbass i am the

1:06:42

and when they started this was because

1:06:44

of my dogs and why because

1:06:47

it's not about to you know the

1:06:49

nikkei power but it's about yep

1:06:51

that's a claim are going

1:06:53

to the democratic way so

1:06:56

that they have actually you know democratic

1:06:58

cash elections and

1:07:01

and pay you know sort of forward

1:07:03

to the west and this is

1:07:05

a thought

1:07:08

on a run at the see

1:07:10

that it's attracted to

1:07:12

how they right door open that

1:07:14

would face operate new hampshire there

1:07:16

are two things that are they are worried

1:07:18

about the you know what is different

1:07:21

warning that in the democratic

1:07:23

country are you know you have

1:07:25

elections from time to time he signed me

1:07:27

oh ok or the prime minister and

1:07:29

engage in the leader of a country

1:07:32

makes a mistake the or or

1:07:34

or something that the public doesn't release

1:07:36

and like so i mean

1:07:39

not felix it the next time and

1:07:41

and this they're taking

1:07:46

he he didn't have that threats

1:07:48

because say oh no no socratic

1:07:51

regimes are you are there and

1:07:53

then your the cigarettes and the other

1:07:55

thing is what they are worried about

1:07:57

an inch the

1:08:00

the think he would go for

1:08:02

the people

1:08:03

the i mean every decision that

1:08:05

the make it said how that

1:08:07

would make life better for the keep

1:08:09

us on the first the people

1:08:12

were

1:08:12

in autocratic regimes if it

1:08:14

serves the the leader a

1:08:16

horror are you not the autocrat

1:08:19

at war and people around and

1:08:21

, is something that he wants

1:08:23

to prevent and so all the countries

1:08:27

that go to the direction as

1:08:29

an hour or democrat fixture

1:08:31

you know way of life or the fact

1:08:34

that they see on hold english

1:08:36

refreshing will prevent them join

1:08:38

the european union away prevent and young

1:08:41

name we know to prevent and

1:08:43

suing the reforms that they need to

1:08:45

do in order to get

1:08:48

the

1:08:50

corruption and and

1:08:52

another you know that

1:08:55

the country clear hand and good

1:08:57

on the every four months thought

1:08:59

i would say

1:09:01

yeah night at that that definitely

1:09:03

brings true you

1:09:05

, nato and of

1:09:08

see part of the debate around this part the

1:09:10

russian demands around this has been no

1:09:12

future they need a large men

1:09:15

know membership ukraine but also nato

1:09:17

, of pulling back it's posture to

1:09:20

nineteen ninety seven to the kind of pre life

1:09:23

and pre life stone yet joining

1:09:25

the alliance or and as wanting for

1:09:27

you know for listeners mainly in listeners the us

1:09:30

could you explain the how important

1:09:32

has nato membership into a sonia

1:09:35

and

1:09:36

what would it mean for stone yeah if if

1:09:39

, essentially the demand was met to kind

1:09:41

of pull back back take

1:09:44

a previous nato force posture or

1:09:46

to ah restrict

1:09:49

any military exercises and

1:09:51

any and and and own countries

1:09:53

on the east

1:09:55

well yes we

1:09:57

have been have we were independent

1:10:00

pay attention i seen a fee

1:10:02

on we lost our independence sauce

1:10:05

or because of resign

1:10:07

the soviet aggression

1:10:09

, that nine since afford the

1:10:11

so and so so

1:10:13

this he said that history is a we were

1:10:15

fifty years on the the rule of

1:10:17

thirds of the union and

1:10:20

and so when we regained their independence

1:10:22

in nineteen ninety one that

1:10:24

basic principle of our foreign

1:10:27

policy was that we are never

1:10:29

alone again and what does

1:10:31

it mean it means that we are active

1:10:34

participants the no one be organizations

1:10:36

as actually are a guaranteed

1:10:39

to our our our independence

1:10:41

and are being i said

1:10:43

sovereign face on it

1:10:45

so so we moved five really

1:10:47

in this regard because we lost the independence

1:10:50

in nineteen forties because he thought that we

1:10:52

are you know of know on

1:10:55

our own being a neutral country that

1:10:59

being said the very small thinking

1:11:01

at one point three million inhabitants

1:11:05

in the geographical

1:11:06

instead we are we basically

1:11:08

had to change it should be with the

1:11:10

was he been

1:11:12

a pleasure as easily things

1:11:14

that we are alone you know we don't

1:11:16

need anybody then are

1:11:18

aggressive neighbor so sober we have

1:11:21

seen this in the past so our

1:11:23

quincy for was that never alone again

1:11:25

submit we about for

1:11:27

the european union membership for

1:11:29

the terminator membership at

1:11:31

a nato and our defense

1:11:34

hear his face and super

1:11:36

earth one is our

1:11:38

own

1:11:39

hobo be and much more than two percent

1:11:43

okay to be too hard to find

1:11:45

our present to be precise and

1:11:48

i collected defenses nature

1:11:50

and let it really means it means that

1:11:53

now you know i think that five of may

1:11:55

so which says that attack on one

1:11:57

is attack on old adage the

1:11:59

east

1:12:01

the thing for it also

1:12:03

means that day he attacked us

1:12:06

for being an hour later and

1:12:08

this is a big had to

1:12:10

parents for are are

1:12:12

are aggressive neighbors but it also

1:12:15

be part of our security

1:12:17

which as as you know

1:12:19

use this example several times

1:12:21

but i it's i think it's a good example

1:12:24

that you know if you have a school bullies

1:12:26

and your heart small

1:12:28

small country

1:12:31

like we are

1:12:32

they need heat seeking a big fan

1:12:35

so that know the village

1:12:37

a don't know if a dk pick up

1:12:39

the fight the power ah because

1:12:41

i am stronger then

1:12:43

they are output but i

1:12:46

am i really have to picking a face

1:12:48

to face size and if if none of

1:12:50

them i'm i'm taking up

1:12:52

there may be other other ways

1:12:55

oh yeah n n n n

1:12:57

so essentially the idea

1:12:59

of the of yo the u s agreeing

1:13:02

, russia that that

1:13:04

that's in some fashion

1:13:06

the troops will be removed and and

1:13:08

nato one have any posturing that eastern countries

1:13:12

one you have no tractor sizes and your soil

1:13:15

the to you guys that's kind of

1:13:17

in an existential question is

1:13:19

this is a i think sometimes people here

1:13:21

these these concepts and

1:13:23

don't understand why are there may be problematic

1:13:25

to some members of the nato alliance yeah

1:13:28

yeah to

1:13:29

i mean a free have even even

1:13:31

around the you know the european union

1:13:33

table sometimes i feel that

1:13:36

sounds at you know discussions

1:13:38

about defense they are like

1:13:40

the theoretical discussion for some

1:13:43

of the allies roger

1:13:45

it is exit existential issue existential

1:13:47

the issue that we are dealing every

1:13:49

day dealing saw though it's not

1:13:51

the theoretical thing theoretical mean that

1:13:54

if you would ask me ask me as minister

1:13:56

would i would i want to be

1:13:58

nice to the he

1:14:00

added system of course that

1:14:03

would rather a mess you have the

1:14:05

education system but again being

1:14:07

in the geographical position where we are

1:14:09

we just don't have other choice

1:14:12

because me wants to be independent senses

1:14:14

and as telling you the military exercises

1:14:17

at it again you look at the next to

1:14:19

me i recently had teach if the agreement

1:14:22

is

1:14:26

they get older we are

1:14:28

telling the for her which means those fancy

1:14:31

and and then c c

1:14:33

c search told me through said

1:14:36

, in case somebody somebody

1:14:39

in a what

1:14:41

has to be kept in mind though said the

1:14:43

officer thoughts agreements and

1:14:46

biggest inside and this is

1:14:48

the most inside his tapes edition at

1:14:50

least

1:14:51

you get agreement with an age

1:14:54

because they say they do you think the

1:14:57

teenage because water

1:14:59

know at this

1:15:05

the has to be followed up facing

1:15:07

down which means that the

1:15:09

way

1:15:17

their side of the promises are the agreements

1:15:19

say they just

1:15:28

pitching in berlin he

1:15:31

also pointed out

1:15:32

they some agreement regarding

1:15:35

the nuclear arsenal of the same

1:15:37

ah that are they hop beach or

1:15:39

that they gave this sucks are people

1:15:41

in crimea in donbass happy now

1:15:44

that they gave this up by disagreements

1:15:46

because i say not to the merseyside

1:15:49

the on

1:15:51

while looking forward a

1:15:53

i guess there's guess there's new they're

1:15:56

more than two scenarios but to simplify

1:15:58

it that near this scenario of a russian the asian

1:16:00

in and is a scenario some the escalation in

1:16:03

the scenario where there is a is a

1:16:06

a pretty significant russian military intervention

1:16:11

what what are you worried about in

1:16:13

terms of as a stone insecurity

1:16:15

in other words do you worry

1:16:18

about a situation but say there's

1:16:20

their sanctions and response

1:16:23

cyber attacks propaganda

1:16:25

campaigns his influence operations

1:16:29

interference , estonia politics

1:16:31

you know short of a military conflict the

1:16:33

setting sun as people think oh it's you

1:16:35

know there's there's a war and them then there's

1:16:37

a stay at the places where there is no conflict

1:16:40

by the stern you could find itself in this this

1:16:42

in between space migrants

1:16:45

you mentioned refugees from ukraine what refugees

1:16:47

from you would you concerned about in the

1:16:49

possibility of of a of a concert

1:16:52

it did he says you're very correct

1:16:54

that certs even

1:16:56

if we don't have don't have conflict free might

1:16:58

have a series of small conflict son

1:17:01

and i think ah the small concept

1:17:03

so much easier to organize a

1:17:05

bail the just as the answer

1:17:08

or for us as if i may save him

1:17:11

further attacks the from you

1:17:13

know electricity grid is the

1:17:15

cat that or or you know

1:17:17

we are still connected to

1:17:20

russia and with some

1:17:22

electricity bridge on so

1:17:25

on so mean

1:17:28

oh wait when you have the connections it

1:17:30

also might virtue and the other side

1:17:33

as a good books by

1:17:35

march leonard said to call the age

1:17:37

of unfinished actually talking about

1:17:40

the things that in the global

1:17:42

whereas we are more connected than ever

1:17:45

like that is really nothing

1:17:48

to home you are connected to because

1:17:50

the other side of the connect the my daughter

1:17:52

virtue and so it you connected

1:17:55

to friends and make sure that the i mean

1:17:57

be aware that the other side my

1:18:00

that might use his connection in

1:18:02

a different different

1:18:04

so of course the military basically

1:18:06

ave weighed about this you know

1:18:08

they are really attacking ukraine

1:18:11

, is damaging

1:18:13

than rules what we have seen before

1:18:16

recording crimea before recording

1:18:19

you know it it's they have

1:18:21

to go back the mean a

1:18:23

okay so when something is taken

1:18:26

then already you know the discussions

1:18:28

will be that ah about

1:18:31

the let them not move forward

1:18:33

but nobody really does casey said

1:18:35

well anyway and

1:18:37

shouldn't hang the beginning and

1:18:40

end zone and and know

1:18:42

these things are so so

1:18:44

this is clearly at they're moving

1:18:46

one step further which you

1:18:49

are a nice

1:18:51

but the other side of it these the

1:18:54

you know the implicit implications

1:18:56

to our ah

1:18:58

them or to the whole of europe actually

1:19:01

and one is sam you know the

1:19:03

the war being really

1:19:06

close ah and that and

1:19:08

it again if you look at the map ukraine

1:19:10

is in the sense of europe release

1:19:12

and so it has an effect

1:19:15

on on the other side is

1:19:17

of course economical affects about

1:19:19

the ha de blasio and

1:19:21

each multiple conflicts we

1:19:23

see each are so even ah

1:19:26

during summer time and when it gets warmer

1:19:28

we probably see it again a hybrid

1:19:31

a tax on the bell or us and

1:19:33

european border pushing the

1:19:35

migrants over over the border

1:19:38

which is overwhelming the

1:19:40

, self us else

1:19:42

else and police and and border

1:19:45

guards the now in latvia

1:19:47

lithuania and the and

1:19:49

poland are also some

1:19:52

something like that could have been also

1:19:54

are also russian border

1:19:56

we don't see side now that it's also

1:19:58

now that aside it

1:20:00

tax on definitely

1:20:02

something that we should

1:20:05

be afraid

1:20:08

of oh looking ensues a we

1:20:10

are at trying to

1:20:12

make sure also preparations

1:20:14

as much as we we can fall for

1:20:16

such cases

1:20:20

and in what do you see as the the but

1:20:22

it would be the best case scenario near what's the optimistic

1:20:25

scenario that this did some path of the escalation

1:20:28

through the european negotiations

1:20:30

at as mccrone others are having ass

1:20:32

do you see a way out of this that is

1:20:35

the that has a farmer prudent

1:20:38

taking the pathway the

1:20:40

have not they're militarily

1:20:42

intervening in ukraine

1:20:44

well i wouldn't have

1:20:47

first

1:20:47

the boy i wouldn't say that they are negotiations

1:20:49

because i think you know negotiating

1:20:52

is already a trap because you'll have to

1:20:54

offer something ah you know

1:20:56

our underwear the

1:20:58

think again this is a bit as a

1:21:00

cafe the case sacks of for

1:21:02

off the rice in negotiation tactic

1:21:05

said thursday demand that

1:21:07

a democracy and maximum they don't need

1:21:09

yards of them on something the to have

1:21:11

never been there and

1:21:13

then second week of paper

1:21:16

he said he knew that already there that

1:21:19

people into this are offering

1:21:21

them something and then even

1:21:23

if he said they don't attack

1:21:26

you know

1:21:28

the military attack in ukraine they have

1:21:30

already received fencing that they didn't have before

1:21:33

you know be your , or exercises

1:21:35

or something that they

1:21:38

didn't have before so we should be

1:21:40

very should be i think we

1:21:42

should have on visit

1:21:44

strategic patience are

1:21:46

talking to russia i think it's good

1:21:49

gig you know having the dialogue

1:21:51

but there but not really negotiating

1:21:54

a because he is saying

1:21:56

and negotiations always mean i

1:21:59

mean

1:22:00

the giving instances whole know and

1:22:02

there's also

1:22:03

new years ago like a

1:22:06

read a book by chris post on

1:22:09

a bus and never ,

1:22:11

the difference regarding the negotiations

1:22:13

i success the as the ice

1:22:16

on a hostess she

1:22:18

had cases just been fortunate

1:22:20

though he says though he you know in

1:22:22

the business say usually negotiate

1:22:25

hate you and i think it's when winch

1:22:27

at you

1:22:28

on have hudson negotiations tactics

1:22:30

when there are okay q

1:22:33

i checked you were home so

1:22:35

i think we should have the same attitude

1:22:37

towards russia that the a house

1:22:39

as see know the

1:22:42

yeah yeah may make my

1:22:44

get through will occur thanks so much for tagging

1:22:46

this before you go when as you want one want

1:22:48

question to dislike things at the end you're the

1:22:50

kind of

1:22:51

peter i think that a lot of our audience kind of roots

1:22:53

for and that global political debates what

1:22:55

do you we've never talked about ukraine and

1:22:58

you've dealt with covered what's been your favorite

1:23:00

part about being a minister what is with

1:23:02

would you like about your job on a day to day basis

1:23:05

yeah

1:23:09

what night when i like

1:23:11

about the job is that they get to work

1:23:13

he says and is a smartest people

1:23:16

in the still next

1:23:17

and and of funny way the

1:23:19

endless this prime ministership i

1:23:21

will be very smart the two states ask

1:23:23

me all kinds of my mouth about on christmas

1:23:26

had over

1:23:27

the point to know they're also

1:23:29

you know of any demands

1:23:32

i really really good spent sense

1:23:34

but dan yan

1:23:37

so and so i think it is

1:23:39

said this is something a definite

1:23:41

see it

1:23:43

yeah no i know the feeling a being governed

1:23:45

you just you they're experts everywhere and then is

1:23:47

any given topic you know you can just as

1:23:49

a diversion exits address months we're we're

1:23:51

we're we're thankful you could join us in and

1:23:53

i know you're very busy best

1:23:55

of luck with everything get your during and and

1:23:58

will be thinking about the people the sun the

1:24:00

going for the web

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concept , the local well as they use

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the executive producer is michael martinez our

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producer is having its mixing edited

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by andrew chadwick heil seguin is our

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sound engineer thanks to our digital team

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elijah cone yield fried and phoebe

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bradford film and share or episodes

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as videos each week