0:00

welcome to parts of the world i'm ben rhodes

0:03

and i am a

0:05

very sad that i'm not joined as always

0:07

buy one of my best friends and in

0:09

my co-host a and the the

0:12

, of of this entire enterprise

0:15

or not just this podcast but the crooked

0:17

media a tommy tommy

0:19

for those of you don't know by now who haven't seen

0:21

his post on instagram or or listen to

0:24

the pod save pod he's

0:26

just been going through an unspeakable

0:28

a tragedy unspeakable a

0:30

and his wife hannah just a few days

0:32

ago lost their baby

0:35

daughter at twenty four weeks that

0:37

to hold her and i i encourage you to

0:39

look at at at tommy's instagram post

0:42

which was an incredibly

0:45

radius of of them to share that that

0:47

story that information because they

0:49

know it's something that other people go through this that

0:52

people don't always talk about and and as

0:54

tommy references and in one of his posted

0:57

it's , the more tragic for them because this is

0:59

is had miscarriages before

1:01

they been really battling to reach

1:04

the point where point were so

1:06

close and

1:08

, i can say is that you

1:11

know one of the reasons i love

1:14

doing this particular show

1:17

is you get a sense said you

1:19

know there's a community around it and

1:21

we joke about it sometimes the

1:24

, community but but

1:26

met people around the world who

1:29

listen to this to and

1:31

that's a reflection will

1:33

if tommy's personality more tommy's mine is

1:36

such an open and inclusive person

1:38

as you guys person every week not

1:42

just kind of funny not just kind but

1:44

genuinely searching genuinely

1:47

curious genuinely interested genuinely the

1:49

underdog and

1:51

i just want to say that i've gotten

1:53

messages and i know tommy's gotten a lot

1:56

from people who listen to this show

1:58

for worried about him and hand out the about them

2:01

who , want to let them know that that

2:03

you're thinking of them and i want to thank

2:05

you all are on his behalf for

2:08

for for those messages i know they

2:10

mean a lot to them them

2:12

helped them through this a

2:14

terrible time it's lifted them lifted and

2:18

dad and know how much it means to him

2:20

means do this shows to thank

2:22

you shows for that and

2:25

i know the timing hannah also have

2:27

encouraged people want to do something and

2:30

this is another thing that that tom is always done

2:32

encourage people to to some things that there's

2:34

several organizations that they

2:36

would points you to if you want to make at a

2:39

relevant to for for people

2:42

who dealt with similar she says who they're

2:44

dealing with now baby the baby

2:46

which is a nonprofit here in los angeles

2:48

that helps provide children living here

2:50

in with with diapers and close

2:52

and other necessities the star

2:54

legacy foundation which is a nonprofit

2:57

dedicated to reducing pregnancy

3:00

loss and neonatal that and

3:03

baby quest grants which is a nonprofit

3:06

providing fertility grants to those who

3:08

can afford costly procedures like ideas

3:11

and and egg freezing so check out

3:13

those organizations we

3:16

we've got them up on our on social media

3:18

channels i , at your

3:20

time is intake a little time away as as

3:22

he should should have some guess

3:24

social do some some different things in the coming

3:27

weeks and look forward to

3:29

that and obviously to tell when tommy can

3:31

get back in the church the we

3:34

are going to hear from to really extraordinary

3:36

guests catherine belt and if

3:38

he's really the leading investigative journalist

3:41

whose looked into who's i'm a

3:43

prude news who is circle is how he came to power

3:45

how he sustained power starts in

3:47

the kgb days and and takes us up to

3:49

the presence and then john and i'm sober

3:52

those of you who read my book after the fall

3:55

know the gianna was fall character

3:57

in that book her father spores

3:59

and book the off was once

4:02

a deputy prime minister russia a leading opponent

4:04

an outspoken critic of wonder prudent who was assassinated

4:08

in , shadow of the kremlin and john

4:10

has been an activist in a journalist herself

4:13

and so gina can give us the perspective

4:15

of the perspective and how of russians looked

4:17

at prudence are russians or team the situation

4:20

in ukraine today so i'm a

4:22

today's an opportunity to kind of go deep on this

4:24

question of who is prudent what

4:26

is he thinking what does this all about

4:29

and and hopefully from that we

4:31

could discern something that were this is going i'm

4:34

, gonna touch a bit on the the the collection

4:36

the news i will say will cover the story's

4:38

going forward there's some very positive

4:40

signals coming out the administration about the

4:43

likelihood of potentially reaching

4:45

and iran deal to point out out

4:48

we're watching that but the dead

4:50

signals are good thus far and i think the ball appears

4:53

to be an iranian court of feels like the us has

4:55

made a very credible offer an and

4:57

they're close as that's as that's

5:00

johnson doesn't do boris party

5:02

but will be watching not

5:04

because the initial report about his partying

5:07

came out and as bad as does he think

5:09

so i he's currently trying

5:11

to weather the currently in part by trying

5:14

to be as to the trying he can on

5:16

ukraine but as

5:19

a maid and one party too many for for boris

5:21

the latest on ukraine's to set this

5:23

up to date wagner

5:26

prudent made his first comments about his

5:28

send off over ukraine or

5:30

ukraine more than his send bruins been kind of i'll

5:33

be absent he , appearing

5:35

after a meeting with fellow autocrat

5:38

autocrat orban big surprise there

5:40

that big that there be his buddy from europe that one

5:42

sang our are these days a

5:45

big or been such a hangout tucker carlson

5:47

i did a few more shows in budapest students

5:49

said that the u s and it's allies have ignored

5:52

russia's top security demands

5:54

referencing the written responses said

5:57

russia received from the united states

5:59

if it is and so

6:01

fairly negative put nest response

6:04

dismissive the ,

6:06

spokesman dmitry peskov or

6:08

who's a pretty reliable mouthpiece for food

6:10

and so therefore window and the other

6:12

least trying to buy for time i told

6:15

told russian officials are still drafting their

6:17

formal response to the american formal

6:20

response and it it's aimed at the escalating

6:22

the ukraine the in

6:24

that they be ready to deliver those responses as soon

6:26

as mr prudence see spitzer curry

6:28

ball still and prudence court

6:31

the russian simultaneously saying that

6:33

simultaneously demands for nato to

6:35

pull back from eastern europe and from

6:37

to never entertain the possibility

6:40

of ukraine joining the or that those those

6:42

demands of or up and met but you

6:45

see prudent in the russian government leaving

6:48

itself a little wiggle room to continue

6:50

negotiating and and potentially room

6:52

a path of the escalation presents

6:54

alinsky of ukraine has been a bit

6:57

all over the map we saw him downplaying

6:59

the threat of an invasion

7:01

a few days ago just today

7:03

he said though and warning about what

7:05

the were would be this is not going to be war

7:07

between ukraine and russia this is going to be a european

7:10

war a fully fledged war that

7:12

is if russia invades his country answer

7:15

you see him once again trying to broaden his beyond

7:18

it just being a matter for ukraine and it being

7:20

a matter for the west and is

7:22

our world really know it's

7:24

interesting it's probed some

7:26

friends in ukraine about this question of

7:28

why the ukrainian political leadership

7:31

feels really ,

7:33

been saying that they're less concerned

7:35

about an actual invasion and is that

7:37

just trying to project com

7:39

trying to not freak people out trying to not tank

7:41

the economy economy and i

7:43

got a sincere answer back

7:45

from people that i know are kind of close

7:48

to those ones he circle to and their

7:50

basic take was it they really don't think

7:53

that prudence intention has been to invade

7:55

ukraine along that invade ukraine

7:57

they read his the prudent

7:59

was seeking to build up these troops

8:01

to get the west to back down and

8:03

agree to his demands and

8:06

they think that some extent that

8:08

still his hope in his play rather

8:11

than wanting to to full invade the country and

8:15

near that maybe if he does something it

8:17

would be the more kind

8:19

of small scale invasion are

8:22

incursion as as present biden said in a press

8:24

conference that , of bites off

8:26

another chunk of eastern ukraine or

8:29

tries to solidify the status quo where

8:31

russia has crimea arm and

8:33

is going to break away chunks

8:36

of eastern ukraine that the russians had been messing

8:38

around and but the dealt they don't go further

8:41

further and waves he hoped it it's the

8:43

case it does not invasion one

8:45

of the reasons why that

8:48

might be the case is

8:51

that no one thing you'll hear

8:53

from our guess they too it's

8:56

quite possible that

8:58

bomber prudent is gotten himself new

9:00

position where he

9:03

could bite off more than he can shoot ah he

9:05

could overreach and ways that

9:08

could be incredibly damaging and

9:10

i just point out a few the first is

9:14

when putting the display back and twenty

9:16

fourteen an annex crimea

9:19

again , didn't move masses of russian military

9:21

force in the crimea and in some ways you

9:23

didn't have to there

9:25

is a fairly large

9:27

pro russian population in crimea

9:30

there's crimea russian speaking majority

9:33

speaking crimea and therefore and

9:35

mix of propaganda mix of operations

9:37

in russian special forces could

9:40

and rarely pain free way

9:42

pull off that invasion and

9:44

subsequent annexation of crimea without

9:47

a lot of blowback in ,

9:49

russia little tougher when russia began

9:52

to move some special some

9:54

in eastern ukraine and prudent

9:57

weird indications obama years would

9:59

try to rob when

10:01

, were killed in that conflict he didn't want

10:03

it to be known back home but

10:06

the but of suffering and loss of life

10:08

was not enormous in

10:10

that case whereas if

10:12

he does what is most worrying and

10:14

invade ukraine give me a very

10:16

different that of places

10:19

then crimea he's going

10:21

to clearly face resistance

10:23

resistance from ukrainian military

10:26

that has seven years of

10:28

low grade conflict with russia under it's belt that

10:30

has received a lot of weapons from

10:32

not as united states but other countries and so he

10:34

could be facing a very

10:36

costly a military intervention

10:39

which can turn very unpopular

10:41

very quickly in countries

10:43

like even russia that's part of what

10:45

broad the soviet union down

10:48

the invasion of afghanistan

10:51

by the soviets in that the told that took so

10:53

that's the first point is that

10:56

the , conflict itself if he does

10:58

invade ukraine could be much blood

11:01

your more costly costly the second

11:03

is the russian economy isn't exactly

11:05

going gangbusters as it is

11:08

the combination of prudent zone kind

11:10

of pop the craddock model coupled

11:12

with the sanctions that they faced after

11:15

the twenty fourteen invasion annexation of annexation

11:18

it's taken a real toll on russia their

11:20

capacity to access sir

11:22

technologies their capacity in

11:24

some cases attacks a certain funds

11:27

that had been frozen you

11:29

see growth and wages down

11:32

or you see a real hit that is already

11:34

impacted standards of living already

11:36

impacted and the economic outlook in russia and

11:38

it's the sanctions that have been discussed if

11:41

even a portion of the sanctions frank with that

11:43

have been discussed by the by administration

11:46

go into effect and

11:49

the russian banking sector is hit and

11:51

suddenly they can access

11:54

big chunk to their own money and suddenly

11:56

they can access technologies that keep

11:58

their economy running you can

12:00

be in a really difficult circumstance

12:03

and as well here today in our interview you

12:05

know part of what's kept him in power is

12:08

the need to be just good enough for the

12:10

broad populace that unrest

12:13

can be kept in check and you

12:15

seem pockets of unrest frankly because

12:17

of the economic circumstances new son of all

12:19

neat really getting traction with the any corruption

12:21

message but things have been just good enough

12:24

did that can be kept under wraps but also

12:27

there needs to be enough of a pie to take care

12:29

of this inner circle that he's created of

12:31

billionaires and security tides and

12:33

creeps in goons that he depends

12:36

upon and that pies already been shrinking

12:39

and it apply basically goes away because

12:42

couldn't put all these chips on the

12:44

table on a bed in ukraine

12:47

you could start to see real tensions in

12:49

the broader public and

12:51

within the inner circle even so

12:55

this mixture of the

12:57

military cost and geopolitical caustic

13:00

to come with invasion and

13:02

the economic costs that could put a risk

13:04

is a model could lead to

13:06

a situation where the kind of ponzi scheme

13:08

that he's built an

13:10

, that's really really

13:13

on oil and gas and saft

13:15

at and top and spreading enough

13:17

crumbs around yeah this could

13:19

really boomerang and i think

13:22

that's part of what they're considering

13:25

in the kremlin now you

13:27

also here today may just be that

13:30

the one kernel of actual

13:32

ideological in the prudent regime

13:35

and machinery had been the

13:38

combination of wanting to push back on the

13:40

west and push back on nato

13:43

and to restore last

13:45

greatness from the soviet union and ukraine

13:48

would be the exact place to do that

13:50

it is the biggest former soviet

13:53

republic it is the buffer

13:55

between russia and

13:58

nato he is historically

14:01

the the neighboring state that has

14:04

some overlap and cultural linguistic ties

14:06

not in the whole country but and parts of it so maybe

14:09

the poodle way those risks and

14:11

how take the gamble anyway the me

14:13

thank mark gamble before in the past

14:15

and and it's paid off but this

14:18

is something to watch the and

14:21

really i think what to nasa be assessing

14:23

knows what's more dangerous the

14:25

me glamour pool is

14:27

it going into ukraine

14:30

and maybe getting the the short

14:32

term glory that would come with

14:34

conquering another chunk of a neighboring

14:37

country is that more dangerous

14:39

so because of the consequences of mean by dummy

14:41

the war the more dangerous

14:44

for me to have built up this massive military

14:46

force and then to climb

14:48

down a

14:50

which goes against everything

14:53

, he's sought to portray himself

14:55

as over the years the strongman the

14:57

guy you set up hockey games

14:59

where he can score fifteen goals because people

15:01

are too afraid to get the waves of

15:03

the shots we don't known only

15:05

he knows but thankfully today

15:08

i wouldn't hear from to people who from

15:10

a personal standpoint and john

15:12

as case and of reporting some point in

15:14

catherine's case they really know as much

15:16

as any other to be by could think of to talk about

15:19

the subjective of who is poodle and

15:22

what he wants

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joining me now is catherine belsen

19:58

who is a special respondent

20:00

for reuters and she's

20:02

also the author of the book prudence

20:05

people how the kgb took

20:07

back russia and then took on the west and

20:09

before we start our cat a nice want

20:11

to say if , if

20:14

they've been a lot of good books written about putin

20:18

putin never read one that is

20:22

as detailed as

20:24

, specific and

20:26

as persuasive in

20:29

telling the story of how we got farmer

20:31

prudence and i should also

20:33

add like as like someone

20:35

who loves me of john le carre that

20:37

le are there vignettes of writing

20:40

in there that does feel like they could have been listed

20:42

out of the very best that le carre so

20:45

your book was extraordinarily helpful to me as

20:48

i was finishing my me as which has a big

20:50

sex on food and and i want to recommend

20:52

everybody pick up your book if they want in

20:54

a more but thanks so much for joining us

20:56

the that fights or any kind of you to

20:58

to say i spent a great deal of time

21:00

writing it in it's overseas as a highest

21:03

honor to be a compared

21:05

in any way to john le carre but that

21:07

probably those moments with us ones

21:09

that wrote themselves cause illicit neither

21:11

this strange and wonderful things that occurred

21:13

along the way reporting it

21:15

the seen as yeah no i mean there's some

21:17

amazing characters in and try to get your little bit

21:19

of that along the way i wanted to start

21:23

with , getting at this question of of

21:25

how did did get

21:27

wagner prudent and you

21:29

icing make very persuasive case

21:32

fact based case it essentially

21:34

based arose out of the nature

21:37

the kgb that he was a part of an

21:40

as a young man and dress and serving

21:42

in the kgb at the desk of the soviet union

21:45

and i was wondering if you could just x explain

21:48

to listeners you know what what

21:50

the kgb was up to in

21:52

, of things like money laundering

21:54

and in kind of of

21:56

into capitalism what ,

21:59

it prudent the circle acquire

22:02

the seven was falling apart the

22:04

day then kind of took with them into

22:07

the power grab that that they made

22:09

the and the night

22:11

yeah i think yeah if you if you look more

22:13

closely at what he was up to in dresden

22:15

you can start to see it and it's clear model

22:18

for how his regime has operated

22:20

today and put in and

22:22

in dresden was actually already

22:25

involved in active measures against

22:27

the west i it seems he was the main

22:30

or liaison officer between the kgb

22:32

under style seats and a one

22:35

a former staci officer who defected

22:37

from from who defected to the

22:39

west earth has told about how putin

22:42

in those days he was trying to

22:44

acquire a poisonous materials

22:47

from a professor and was

22:49

trying to do so by planting compromising

22:51

material on him so we don't know whether he

22:54

acquired this poisonous material is meant to

22:56

be a type that never left any trace

22:58

that , does he have so has told us

23:01

of this operation of with him was

23:03

also involved in attempts to

23:05

us as smuggle technology

23:07

from the west is so smuggle stolen

23:09

technology from the west he was working

23:12

closely with or stifled mathias

23:14

vanik us who we all know nowadays

23:16

is the chairman as of nordstream to

23:18

the gas pipelines into germany

23:20

he's very close coat crony as

23:23

of pretend indeed and back

23:25

in the day in dresden they were working closely

23:27

together us vanik was

23:29

running a as sell for a

23:32

disguised as a business consultancy

23:34

where he was interesting a

23:36

western is insensitive and

23:38

the or the technology to him and

23:41

so the new the ton of curious instances

23:44

of you know putting then is also

23:46

said to have been handling know the tories

23:49

neo nazis tories to

23:51

be soaked the rise of the far right

23:53

and later on in the eastern germany

23:55

but it's and put some was put at was so

23:58

when you know the city couldn't

24:00

compete directly military economically

24:03

with the west but what they were very very

24:05

good at doing was active

24:07

measures which are these kind of covert ops

24:09

to undermine and says disunity

24:12

in the west and we seek to tim

24:14

reverting to these tactics today

24:17

and it was a time when they also

24:19

made wide uses front companies

24:21

and it was a time what puts him

24:24

was that was already quite clear

24:26

that that was gonna have to be in change earth

24:28

that the communist regime couldn't survive

24:30

that this planned economies just went

24:32

working about the were eg against the

24:34

west that they were ready leggings far

24:37

behind so they knew the writing was on

24:39

the one they knew things are gonna have to change

24:41

but they also wanted to preserve their intelligence

24:44

networks so at the time

24:46

putting was in dressed and there was

24:48

a and a tory is stacey agent

24:51

named much and sloths of who's

24:53

had been a given us

24:55

as the contract to create a

24:57

up build a hard disk plan entering

24:59

the and nearby he was given hundreds of

25:02

millions of so it's marks by the germans

25:04

east german government could both of point

25:07

on yet of the components

25:09

never arrived for this plan ah

25:11

you know the gate du pont with never finished

25:14

and instead of the hundreds of millions

25:16

of do it smokes was siphoned us

25:18

into a kind of as well as front

25:20

companies and singapore list

25:22

and stein and and switzerland which

25:25

was passed by study agents

25:27

and nance when the berlin wall fell

25:30

slash continued to become a

25:32

kind of the major businessmen and his company's

25:34

was staffed with are stressed and

25:37

staci guys including the as it is

25:39

the dresden for in intelligence

25:41

unit and then and then on to

25:43

become a stray powerful within

25:45

a russia's and gazprom and

25:47

power brutes agency this is

25:50

continuing policy so put

25:52

him with said it's dabbling in these

25:54

tactics back then and that was an heiress

25:57

when the kg be used for

25:59

companies know friendly and to

26:01

and a covert operations in the

26:03

way the use it to funnel money

26:06

to that they kids a conduct influence

26:08

operations and thirty in

26:10

his fund allied political parties

26:13

say disinformation so that they win

26:15

elections ass in though

26:17

try to win and in cases

26:20

like italy and forty them and

26:22

so on and they were also times

26:24

is samantha unrest in the third world

26:26

and and so on rest as there is to

26:29

connect destabilize the west to his mentality

26:32

the great game

26:34

with the west where the west the main it's a

26:36

three and to to compete

26:39

with you undermine it rather than

26:41

build something constructive of your

26:44

un and a but interestingly right they

26:46

they kind of hack capitalism

26:49

because the the kind of and

26:51

regulated unbridled form of

26:53

your post cold war capitalism

26:57

a mixed with their capacity either

27:00

to launder money

27:03

and money and and capacity to cause

27:05

of see them take over the over

27:07

, of the the russian economy it

27:10

basically arms the kgb with not

27:13

only the a state but with saw the

27:15

wealth they can be afforded from running

27:18

oil companies i

27:21

am curious it like so you

27:24

know you traced you really you get into

27:26

how this circle of people around prudent

27:29

from the the kgb a

27:31

, to this position where

27:33

they're controlling but political power and economic

27:36

power in and in russia

27:39

russia have you have know

27:41

it it in broad strokes the evolution

27:43

of the system that

27:45

he's built this kind of club kleptocratic

27:48

ah cobol that he sits

27:50

on top of how is that evolved

27:52

in the how is years that he's been the dominant

27:54

figure in russia what what's what's the same

27:57

and what's different about it today from

27:59

when he first walked

28:01

into the crime

28:03

i guess when he first came to power

28:05

many russians like many in the west was

28:07

really hopeful that putin was

28:09

actually a liberal that he would sit

28:11

as continue their legacies boris

28:14

yeltsin move russia

28:16

alone market lines that he would integrate

28:19

recess and with the west and i

28:21

guess that was the great the ,

28:23

mistake of you know as began

28:25

in family who brought into power and

28:27

of the west to scan has helped him along

28:29

the way in a pretence

28:32

a bit of a he's of chameleon and he's

28:34

in those days he probably soaked

28:36

up as soaked up of his surroundings

28:39

as he reflected in back so

28:41

he steals in family were convinced that

28:43

he was one of them that he was a liberal that

28:45

he would sit as continue their

28:47

their legacy and of

28:49

in own he's very good at pretending to do

28:51

that and indeed in the first few years

28:54

in office he was he know he was conducting

28:57

market reforms he was dangling just

28:59

sort of sweeping tax cuts

29:01

privatizing land and and so on

29:03

and and even talking about russia

29:05

one day joining nato alliance

29:08

hit on which is very strange

29:10

to think of snow and but i guess at

29:12

the same time us you know he was

29:15

he was surrounded by this cabal of

29:17

kgb mandate he brought with them for

29:19

power most of them were sort

29:21

of leningrad st petersburg katie beach

29:23

and in a way that bothers kgb

29:26

that he brought with them to power much full

29:28

of ruthless perhaps than says

29:30

the kgb guys from moscow the

29:33

kgb guys from from us

29:35

and petersburg where the inner they

29:37

it was rushed to seek and cities so they had

29:39

a it's kind of chip on their shoulder and i was

29:41

told by one former moscow senior

29:43

kgb offices it just made them more

29:45

ruthless that that would stop at nothing

29:48

to acquire power and this former kgb

29:50

guy had worked with put in for a few

29:52

years in st petersburg that

29:54

in the and he stepped away says he

29:56

just and souls religious

29:59

home power hungry

30:01

they were in how they will willing to work

30:03

closely with organized crime anything

30:06

to obtain control as the city's

30:08

classless there you

30:10

know the i think it at some point

30:12

it's it seems as it's a bit of the a gradual

30:15

development but earth quite fast

30:17

putin grew disappointed in

30:19

the west he grew disappointed in this

30:21

is both a spousal as as liberal values

30:24

i think you know won't see moment

30:26

i guess is as you know us to

30:28

he's allowing the us earth

30:30

sort of routes through central asia

30:32

or to wage war in afghanistan

30:35

in age of us still stays hadn't

30:38

unilaterally withdraws from the antiballistic

30:40

missile treaty that was another

30:42

disappointment a nice and i guess

30:44

it was just all the t v

30:47

kids paranoia the knee jerk reaction

30:49

the the kdp guys who win the

30:52

native expanding a slave

30:54

coast city oh boy this state you just

30:57

believe that the west is up to we can

30:59

and circle russia and i think

31:01

and as a shock moment for him of course

31:03

with the orange revolution in

31:05

ukraine as he knew when

31:08

earth's this pro western resolution

31:10

that popper okay kids came power

31:13

and and toppled the the guy that they were

31:15

backing got rid of yanukovych of

31:18

i think he he chewed he believes that this

31:20

is since is a sin funded

31:22

revolution it was aimed

31:24

at encircling dresser a

31:26

new just add to the a real expression

31:29

of people have free will and a real

31:32

pro democracy movement and it's is this

31:34

ingrained kgb mindset

31:36

that just takes over his thinking

31:38

and all the while he's surrounded by

31:40

these kgb guys from st petersburg

31:43

and so the most whole to civil and nikolai

31:45

patrushev who says to

31:47

head of the address be at the time is now

31:49

the powerful security council chief

31:52

who is always a bit more cd it and pretend

31:54

he's a few years older than hands and users

31:56

to moscow much earlier

31:59

on us senior in moscow

32:01

fsb for like ninety four on way

32:03

since this is the guy

32:05

who is seen nearly as the chief ideologue

32:08

as of russia train sets use

32:10

capitalism against the west

32:12

as a tool to undermine the west

32:14

once once say it acquired control as

32:16

as the cashflows at home yeah

32:19

no i'm i remember and

32:22

we went to moscow and two thousand and

32:24

nine and obama

32:26

did is some it wouldn't get of image that of is

32:28

putting on this could face the was

32:30

my world and probably in part is near

32:33

the financial crisis has happened since it's

32:35

they they they , were not

32:37

i'm in a position to be as adversarial

32:40

but i'm i'm the

32:42

the official meetings obama had to go out to

32:44

put and stock up and

32:47

spend several hours bear which

32:50

by we've made him wait for some engage in submit

32:52

get of but couldn't and seem to care that he

32:54

was making the president likes of me with the president's

32:57

and all he did his given the bill of goods about

33:00

i wanted yeah i wanted a new

33:02

really super the western years when i got and

33:05

bm tree and aren't revolution

33:07

then nato marge meant and

33:10

you know some of it was what about his him but

33:12

some of it was something he he

33:14

believed and ,

33:17

the ukraine becomes central to that

33:19

and the obama years we have the annexation of crimea

33:22

i wanted to ask us singing about

33:24

this you know in the sense yeah you

33:26

could say well prudent has what he needs

33:28

you probably one of the wealthiest not

33:30

the wealthiest men the world he has the

33:32

levers of power and russia he

33:36

has established himself as this figure

33:38

on the world seen us to be reckoned with so

33:41

, why do you think we

33:44

are where we are why this constant escalation

33:47

in ukraine why the constant

33:50

drumbeat and russian media about nato

33:54

is it necessary for

33:56

him to kind of maintain this machinery

33:58

of security and takashi that he

34:00

builds a a

34:02

a do see this as something that source

34:05

him up politically or do you see it as

34:07

the video logical on in

34:09

terms of wanting to to maybe

34:12

even reunify ukraine with with

34:14

russia what do you think is is the motivating

34:16

factor at this point

34:19

i'm afraid it it is in a way it's ideological

34:21

but only in the chances of of

34:24

great powers games and kenneth series

34:26

some thinking that's you know he

34:29

is i think he spied and opportunity

34:31

i think he thought that the west was

34:33

going to react weekly mean

34:35

obviously of biden administration

34:38

has come to power to in and amid

34:40

a deeply divided country

34:43

, donald trump's presidency

34:45

the us has all kinds of problems laughs

34:47

and he was the biden administration's

34:49

withdraw from afghanistan and perhaps

34:52

he just as spied opportunity

34:55

but it's kind of a crazy gambit

34:57

to soon as he notes build up such

34:59

a troop presence on the border of

35:01

ukraine and essentially

35:03

us almost try to frighten

35:05

in the west and to making these security

35:08

concessions insists redrawing

35:10

the insists redrawing cold world security

35:13

ordered by i know from my its conversations

35:16

with some of his former kgb allies

35:18

that all they have wanted

35:20

or my since they came to pass

35:23

as a new yorker they want to redraw

35:25

the the cowboy el que the

35:27

map and nice kenneth seize the

35:29

moment i'm i think some

35:31

is it know as well it's it can

35:33

it it smacks a bit to me as

35:36

of desperation the kid i think in

35:38

a way as well he's been so long and

35:40

pi i know isn't in some ways it's

35:42

it's a bit like they've they've can

35:44

have run out of the road became

35:46

young you know april miss like they need

35:48

this constant confrontation

35:50

with the west in order to sure

35:53

at their own power at home because

35:55

i guess ones who they're only model as

35:57

as managing the economy is to take control

35:59

of which means is that

36:01

when i smell of to stagnation

36:03

so it's no to pop says nothing

36:05

new kind of the top because i was

36:07

frightened about the fsb standing

36:10

at the next day in and taking her the companies

36:12

and and so instead has been new no

36:14

economic growth in ,

36:16

of a no ten percent lower than they were as

36:19

eight years ago and he again

36:21

i think he is a you can see this

36:23

kind of that their paranoia has

36:25

been growing the longest they've

36:28

been in power i'm in

36:30

a in a sense because you know they've accumulated

36:33

it so much of it's it's it's impossible

36:35

to hand it over says is no secure

36:37

way to to make a transfer of

36:39

power in the meantime you know

36:42

that are watching the are watching

36:44

in belarus whereas is a plot

36:46

a political population said he said

36:48

it's fair the security services

36:50

and stood up against lukashenko

36:52

they had said you could see that need

36:54

paranoia and how they handled

36:56

have been me just sing with tasting

36:59

it all down on the chalk on

37:01

so as i think this is they thought this

37:04

was the opportunity to turn the tables

37:06

say always see the west sand and

37:08

everything do you think there's

37:10

a risk

37:13

the of of overreach here in the sense

37:15

it's nice you said up the pies gotten smaller

37:17

over the years as they've dealt with sanctions and

37:19

economic stagnation and

37:23

and yeah and unlike crimea

37:26

where you did have a kind the largely

37:29

russian or least russian speaking population

37:32

he , all in ukraine these gonna be in

37:34

yeah you could be facing a resistance it he didn't and

37:36

twenty fourteen i mean a did

37:39

you do did think that some of the people in

37:41

his circle might be worried that hey

37:43

we actually about to for the first time really bite

37:45

off more than we can chew

37:47

the i think you can see quite clearly

37:49

that he as think he has miscalculated

37:52

i think he expected the with the west

37:54

to come up with concessions much

37:57

quicker and and he probably has

37:59

been taken a i know you've

38:01

degree of unity in the west and the

38:03

softness on the sanctions

38:05

and you can see that said last week he was

38:07

just his last week he was meeting with the italian

38:09

business leaders this week it's he's

38:12

supposedly meeting with the german ones

38:14

and at almost like looks a bit desperate

38:16

and then now today he's accusing

38:19

the uss train test trust

38:21

him into into war and

38:23

oh oh with the sole aim as containing

38:25

russia so that's it i drive rusher

38:28

into a wusa commence slapped

38:30

these incredibly harsh sanctions

38:32

on hands and that's just absurd

38:34

and mean see how can you be strapped into

38:36

a wall when you can , hundreds

38:39

is that hundred thousand troops on the border

38:41

sites in or i say i think

38:43

there is a sense now that ah

38:45

they want to step back and but

38:48

it's very difficult to tell whether

38:50

that with the game all along the

38:52

with one and have made level

38:55

of kremlin official that i spoke to this

38:57

weekend he's just trying to fix well

38:59

you know we we just raising the stakes over the

39:01

west would take it seriously and began

39:03

to talk to us as equals

39:06

and begin this security dialogue so

39:08

maybe that's all he wants and

39:10

we'll see this quiet withdrawal but the problem

39:13

is we know us

39:15

that just how skilled that it

39:17

is a operating so destructively

39:21

come unexpectedly so you

39:23

know obviously the sanctions

39:25

that the us is proposed in

39:27

a to be devastating for the the

39:29

economy and the seattle the war

39:32

chest that they supposedly built up to

39:34

six hundred and thirty billions dollars

39:36

in us out currency reserves

39:38

could be very quickly eaten up earth

39:41

he knows the us goes ahead and designates

39:43

russian state banks consumers to use

39:45

a little third to bail them out and

39:48

then i think i think

39:50

he has faced a much tougher response

39:52

and a maybe now he's gonna have to have some

39:54

fun as controlled withdrawal oh maybe

39:57

he just thinks the west

39:59

actually go ahead i guess everyone's

40:01

sake of it is a games poachers

40:03

each side outings the other is is may be

40:05

bluffing says it's really difficult

40:08

to test

40:08

yeah no i mean that a at

40:11

unfortunately unfortunately people of ukraine they're just yeah

40:13

sitting there in the middle the table

40:15

takes a metaphor abbott's okay i

40:18

wouldn't ask you bet on sanctions you know so

40:20

much of your have a good book some

40:22

the more powerful vignettes take place in london

40:25

because , have you know some our

40:27

guards and former put

40:29

associates had to flee their others

40:32

who are still no in the power circle

40:34

in russia just as lavish residences

40:36

there there's you know

40:38

they're supported by everything from pr firms

40:41

to private intelligence network

40:43

sitter their their what about

40:45

a month we talked about sanctions as relates

40:47

to things like banks in the russian economy

40:49

writ large you follow the

40:51

money i mean what one of the

40:53

things i wish we had done more

40:55

of franklin obama years and is

40:58

this really go after the the individual

41:00

wealth of this network of people

41:03

around prudent and

41:05

you've heard talk about even sanction put himself

41:07

but what do you think the capacity as if

41:09

as if if one day and washington

41:12

truly wanted to to go

41:14

after the wealth couldn't

41:16

people to use the title of your buck do

41:19

think that that's passport do you think they built guard

41:21

rails

41:23

i think a kid that such tactics

41:25

can be incredibly disruptive a

41:28

news can see that in the shop reaction

41:30

of the kremlin to the announcement

41:32

yesterday that the us and the uk

41:35

we're going to be working in lockstep

41:38

aunts targeting some of these individuals

41:40

that the u case was no good to broaden

41:42

its ability to sanction those

41:45

not just directly involved

41:47

in activities in ukraine but those

41:49

who list closely linked with the kremlin

41:51

or may be engaged and sprite i

41:53

do said geopolitical city

41:56

jack operations and of you

41:58

see this this is the key he

42:00

was it joe biden was for the the first

42:02

his point out how the oligarchs

42:04

some of them once believed to

42:06

be independent yeltsin eris

42:09

billionaires has essentially become tools

42:11

and agents of the kremlin because you

42:13

know that it's the perfect the pretense

42:16

a security guys back control

42:19

of the economy is is such that they

42:21

can put anyone in jail so if

42:23

you're a russian billionaires you or

42:25

your entire fortune us

42:27

to stay on the good in the good books

42:29

of the kremlin says one of them told

42:31

me he said if i get a call from the kremlin

42:34

saying up with spend two billion or three

42:36

billion dollars on this or that strategic

42:39

proof protect i can't refuse

42:41

you have to comply it's until to

42:43

oven of alfa bank is essentially said

42:45

the same to robert molests during as

42:47

be i investigation into

42:49

into this election interference

42:51

in he basically told miller that's

42:53

yeah i get directors firms putin

42:55

and his fighter pilot and know there

42:58

are consequences says the same seats

43:00

so it's it's said the become a real problem

43:02

for lunch and because obviously london many

43:04

opened its arms to us all this capital

43:07

so we know for the past twenty

43:09

years and everyone in the west seem to believe

43:12

that the more integrated russian

43:14

capital book capital was into western

43:16

systems them or russia was asked it's

43:18

a shave like the west said it would have

43:20

to follow those the west and rules days

43:23

old us but unfortunately

43:25

that the officer can have happened because

43:27

these guys were bringing all the cash in and

43:29

then as kind of corrupting our system

43:31

because they could throw so much more

43:34

money around than they normally eat

43:36

case and as lawyers and bankers

43:38

and politicians

43:39

the kid again no believe see

43:42

overcame a ready made a corrosive

43:44

prices and i think the uk with

43:46

ready kind of

43:47

lagging behind and in the

43:49

kitchen i think that many of these business

43:51

the knots and as independent in the

43:53

west and sense that they don't always

43:55

actually ousted self interest as

43:57

he would expect the west and business monsters

44:00

a very nice a deficiency

44:02

the silliness means that i behold

44:05

and a trend in that they might be following orders

44:07

that there could be and a gender and all

44:09

the soft power that they've now applied

44:12

and london i mean aren't we had about report

44:14

by the by k's parliamentary security

44:17

and intelligence committee which was

44:19

essentially pointing out by the

44:21

russian businesses now really closely

44:24

internet service and stayed in the fifth

44:26

as the security for the whole and editor

44:29

of thinking outfit that these gave

44:31

his sit deeply entrenched

44:33

and track how in london if i stop

44:35

possible to and tangle

44:37

thirty and out sent her yesterday

44:40

that the uk was starting to go with

44:42

thought to go after some of these guys i think

44:45

you know if there are sanctioned this have been

44:47

of you see there has to be as pretty

44:49

safe with are studying invasions it for

44:52

that they're hoping it would be ready to sort

44:54

of in damaging to them to face edge the

44:56

last twenty years building influence

44:58

networks you know they could have accepted

45:01

people they have these army of lawyers

45:03

and specification managers and

45:06

bankers and off from it

45:08

on football clubs which has given them

45:10

also a great deal of power and influence

45:13

there are in this loads on that boards

45:15

which again give some further access

45:18

to a political power

45:20

and some of them are like russian

45:22

emigres to sneeze still

45:24

have business interests back and the motherland

45:26

and so are there for also vulnerable

45:29

to the kremlin orders and yet they're

45:31

making massive donations to

45:33

it's uk political powers and it's

45:35

given that over you can

45:37

as to foothold in an enormous

45:39

status than and within our assistance

45:42

so yeah is that if that changes

45:44

i think it would reduce hit them

45:45

one last question i wanted ask you is just you

45:48

know the in writing your book and

45:50

you know one of the things that these kgb guys you

45:53

at ios obviously intimidate

45:55

threaten harass blackmail you

45:58

know i know you faced you faced heard what

46:00

what what is a or their episode is an

46:02

episode or two that sends out of of of

46:05

the ways in which they tried to influence you or intimidate

46:07

you while while you were reporting this that

46:10

that that sick at you

46:11

you know i kept quite to a low profile

46:13

and i was writing it and i spent so

46:15

long working on it i think everyone forgot

46:18

the i was advocating to produce any sense

46:21

, know i tried not to retract too much attention

46:24

know if one instance and

46:26

may be and in switzerland where

46:29

some people were bit

46:31

worried about what i was looking into

46:33

and we're pretty threatening but

46:35

you know i think they soon realized that it

46:38

could be fired so it wasn't

46:40

anything serious eating

46:42

foods biggest threat says

46:45

location and obviously

46:48

and they came pretty thick and

46:50

fast last year and

46:52

we still trying to understand what

46:54

was the cause of them we received

46:56

by rodgers of legal complaint says

46:58

france roman abramovich the

47:01

owner of chelsea football club and

47:03

then from a then two billion as

47:05

of elsa group of friedman and cats

47:07

happen and then followed pretty

47:09

swiftly by russneft the kremlin also

47:11

keen and you know still don't know what's

47:13

behind it is a coincidence that

47:16

all these legal claims as came

47:18

two months after alex a novel nice

47:20

ways my book in the air and and quotes from

47:22

it does that relate to this kremlin's

47:24

attention and away paths that it hadn't

47:26

then so before we don't know the

47:29

answer that sunday that a know that

47:31

that tightening for anyone because us

47:34

in london in the uk unfortunate

47:36

nice to faking any

47:38

a a defamation case no no

47:40

matter how well sourced you believe

47:43

you have said his words to be and

47:45

sort of thorough the reporting you know it's

47:47

a fighting any such case it cost

47:49

millions and millions of pounds and when he's got

47:52

like four of these guys lined up against

47:54

you it's really quite tough spot

47:56

i was very lucky cause my publisher

47:59

house

48:00

in you know they were pretty determined

48:02

and and stood by me

48:04

yeah well credited to harper collins

48:07

and new for seeking sticking

48:09

with the story in the facts imagine

48:12

, that's that's not easy but thanks

48:14

so much for helping us some on understand

48:16

some of their sense sense

48:18

for other the what you're doing and people said of

48:20

the obviously check obviously the book

48:22

prudence people follow you you're on twitter

48:24

and in your reporting is and murders so

48:26

ab tax revenue drink happened thanks

48:28

for joining us thank you thank the lot for having

48:30

me on

48:39

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50:07

joining me now is the russian journalists

50:10

and activists john and i'm sober who

50:12

is the founder of the boris nemtsov

50:14

foundation for freedom which she founded

50:17

in twenty fifteen after her father

50:19

was assassinated and your the kremlin

50:22

she's , the author for those of you who

50:24

speak russian a currently on the russian of

50:26

the book my father's daughter father's tells her story

50:29

on a thanks so much for joining us on thank

50:32

you for having me today well

50:35

i was really eager to to talk to you

50:37

today to step back of

50:40

, will talk about what's happening happening and

50:42

around and on buddy or united

50:44

have gotten know each other know we spoke to

50:46

my spoke and in ,

50:49

yeah this extraordinary perspective

50:51

of of being your perspective daughter but also

50:54

a , as a journalist yourself in

50:57

and career thought we could start by you're

50:59

going back and we i wanted to ask you what

51:02

would you your first memories

51:04

of of of lot more prudent when he came

51:06

on the political scene more kind of

51:08

ascended after your father's time as

51:11

deputy prime minister for ascended after yeltsin

51:13

the nineties what were your impressions

51:15

of of food and then

51:17

well ah personal i was sixteen

51:19

years old when

51:22

, putting came to power in russia

51:24

and now and thirty seven seven

51:27

half understand that within that has been

51:29

ruled in our country our for

51:31

over to the cage oh

51:34

well ah he'd gone unanswered

51:36

gone my birthday said you get

51:38

elected in two thousand get elected were

51:40

the of march and

51:43

, there is some abbreviated ah

51:45

my birthday and i didn't

51:48

follow politics about closely

51:51

closely ah about

51:53

, though

51:55

collections of live in a put him back

51:58

then so the thing is there

52:00

are totally agree with my father

52:02

when he said ah

52:04

just after our put his

52:07

ah victory he said like when

52:10

we do not know whom you've just

52:12

the last said he's like a cat and a said

52:15

she doesn't have any problem with

52:17

know what he'll do the future set

52:19

and i think that i had known

52:22

as the same in session the

52:25

he basically him come up with any problems

52:28

and her as she was

52:30

pretty harsh and

52:33

here are ,

52:35

his the political editor he started

52:37

political thriller long does

52:40

vibe to as he was not

52:42

known to the general public than here

52:45

i became the the move he

52:49

was tired this military operation

52:52

in august fan and then hcr

52:54

awful and they are

52:58

ah the explosions of

53:00

for ah of , apartment

53:02

buildings in moscow so

53:04

and he was sad he

53:06

was sad hard line and that's what i can

53:09

could

53:09

that man oh

53:11

man so

53:13

basically yeah i did not vote

53:15

because i was also only sixteen years old

53:17

but when i had the right to vote

53:20

i've never never for ladder

53:23

putting never yeah i'm going

53:25

ahead to when couldn't return to the presence in twenty

53:28

twelve and then in , time

53:30

between his returned to the presidency

53:33

and the annexation of crimea

53:35

it seems like you know my experience in the

53:37

white house and then and talk and you

53:40

talk and prudent the escalated

53:42

you know both is authoritarianism at

53:44

home and , his his

53:48

policy abroad policy

53:51

, member talking new this is that period of time

53:53

when your father starts to get detained

53:55

more frequently in russia the

53:58

at the time when he much

54:00

more aggressive in supporting

54:03

bizarre al saud and syria and

54:05

inaction leads us up to the to the

54:07

when he goes into crimea i mean what

54:10

was your your sense of of this the

54:13

the this return of prudent of the pregnancy

54:15

and and and and had how did you see

54:17

the connection between the

54:19

ways in which he was becoming even more

54:21

repressive at home and

54:24

also beginning to take this more

54:26

assertive foreign policy approach with

54:28

the west

54:30

well ah first while i

54:32

was not caught by surprise

54:35

ah when i learned

54:37

that was in would run a for his foot

54:40

from and office so

54:42

i thought it was very clear for

54:44

me that too the and

54:46

st paul for as long as possible

54:50

he and i

54:51

i didn't have any illusions you know like

54:53

many others may others have

54:55

illusions from the in the white house

54:58

so elsewhere that said

55:00

ah you i

55:03

had a lot of hoops that who

55:05

a better president medvedev

55:07

has changed the fourth and

55:09

said could be a more

55:12

democratic leader which did

55:14

not have an invalid is so it

55:16

was pretty much

55:18

quijano that ah it was

55:20

not a real transit of power

55:23

because

55:24

then innovative was present a fresh

55:26

output and was the prime minister on

55:28

the old the the seasons are

55:31

put into many experts were taken

55:34

in the

55:37

the heat of the russian government i'm

55:41

are you are but would have

55:44

touched me really strongly

55:46

was of course of ,

55:49

of crimea crimea i

55:51

personally did not expect that

55:53

to happen it was a huge

55:56

below and i understood

55:58

bag them

56:03

ah a red line and

56:06

i'm a pickup he would mark never stop

56:09

ah independent the can then as

56:11

as my father for a meeting in

56:14

, month ago i

56:16

mean i love not and next to his policies

56:19

but i wanted to watch him about

56:22

ah

56:23

extreme movies he would

56:26

be facing in the future of our

56:29

, she said like or you know

56:31

i do understand all the things

56:33

i'll tell you wanted and

56:36

,

56:37

hopefully dangerous now it's

56:39

not that dangerous you envision regime

56:42

oh , i was i was absolutely

56:45

shocked with this decision am

56:47

i was absolutely shocked ah

56:50

by the rack some of the russians public

56:53

because i'm in ah the overwhelming

56:55

majority of russians supported

56:59

than extinction of crimea yeah it

57:01

was nice ah what is he

57:03

was it was dispatched village of euphoria

57:06

emma weaknesses with my oh

57:09

and people so

57:11

at it

57:12

was a very toxic environment

57:15

are , my workplace became

57:17

a was among the few few

57:20

who have is against anticipation of for me

57:22

and i just stood ah that the that

57:26

of would be really great for humphrey

57:28

and for our national economy but

57:31

people are did not listen to

57:33

each other they didn't want to tell

57:35

raise our other penis

57:38

they were very much are

57:40

inspired by this section of put

57:42

in both not only

57:44

those people who i'm in have supported

57:46

put him before but also those people

57:49

who are huddled in his supporters and

57:52

at at one story

57:55

one really impressive so

57:57

are my father has a bladder and

58:00

he had to do than twenty four teams

58:02

family

58:03

mom and became for his birthday

58:05

party and , father was

58:08

just an official for me about my

58:10

ah all those people who gathered

58:13

people who

58:15

basically said my father is a

58:17

political views they started

58:19

to argue with him the

58:22

emphasis couldn't convince

58:24

him she couldn't convince them

58:27

that will it were a if i'm in a wrong decision

58:29

as

58:30

a and what what why do you think so many

58:32

russians a including russians who might

58:34

not know i have always loved prudent why

58:37

do you think there was such support for for the annexation

58:39

of crimea

58:40

i think it's sad not it's

58:43

not says something that ah

58:45

that is specific to russia

58:47

but i think are in many countries

58:50

ears can fly and

58:52

of the same stories so

58:54

it's air

58:56

the victoria with or

58:58

no cost

59:00

i'm in no time to support ah

59:03

when the a concert expose

59:05

is today in his initials

59:08

saw , it was a sweeping

59:11

accurate militarized race i'm ah

59:14

with all month with the problem

59:17

people that on all fish

59:20

it would oh ah

59:22

something is at it's a

59:24

it has to do with your emotions even

59:27

though people because russia everybody's

59:30

and you back then and everybody

59:32

knows that russia is not the best

59:35

teams , the world into six

59:37

it's economy on a social

59:40

couple of of over

59:42

sort of improbable five

59:45

so it was five so do

59:47

with a move

59:48

that man now eaten it i

59:50

feel that there are no other

59:52

was but rather silly

59:53

right now you can and have them in russia yeah

59:56

know and i want to get to that just before we do

59:58

the the the lacing that the spirit if

1:00:00

we use your your father was organizing

1:00:03

some of the opposition in

1:00:05

, protest against not

1:00:07

just crimea but the the war

1:00:09

and in the donbass in eastern ukraine

1:00:11

ukraine ah a wet the time that he was

1:00:13

assassinated and how

1:00:16

do you see the link between what was

1:00:18

happening between what and and what happened your father

1:00:23

for the rhythm of this link because

1:00:25

they have to understand where the poor

1:00:27

put in and say that ah

1:00:30

crimea ah here

1:00:33

we don't have full well of was extremely

1:00:35

high it was like over

1:00:37

eight percent ah

1:00:39

, of course ah ah

1:00:42

because of this incredible see what

1:00:45

he could do whatever she wants is adept

1:00:47

leap he thought that she could do whatever

1:00:49

she wanted to do and i

1:00:51

think that's ah did

1:00:54

was one of the factors while

1:00:56

my father was assassinated

1:01:01

any portion of twenty and

1:01:03

the news or alteration in east ukraine

1:01:06

of course

1:01:06

these fears ah

1:01:09

events ah were obviously

1:01:11

interconnected so and use

1:01:14

it if you eat and analyze

1:01:16

ah ah their

1:01:18

full and events so and russia's

1:01:21

sell the russian

1:01:23

opposition ah off the

1:01:25

benefit of crimea are

1:01:27

members of the russian opposition ah

1:01:30

the heaven weirdo hard time

1:01:32

and they now does have hard

1:01:34

, ah

1:01:36

the regime ah season

1:01:38

of eating he became much more passes

1:01:41

and , more impressive to words

1:01:44

ah any members of

1:01:46

the position but not on them it's not only

1:01:48

about ah opposition

1:01:51

politicians it's about ah lot

1:01:53

of people so

1:01:55

think differently her done

1:01:57

on hold for didn't really have

1:01:59

put on hold why

1:02:01

who do not share those ah

1:02:05

perception the ah of the

1:02:07

chimney i'm in journalists

1:02:10

activist floors so

1:02:13

almost everybody who is

1:02:15

outspoken russia is now under extreme

1:02:18

pressure and it's not

1:02:20

once again it's a typical authoritarian

1:02:23

regime which we haven't version

1:02:26

nothing new about that you can look

1:02:28

at other countries any you'll see more

1:02:30

or less the same when

1:02:32

the world

1:02:34

yeah what a in a you know

1:02:36

so he and you're obviously we're like you said

1:02:38

word a financial journalist yeah

1:02:42

skipping from twenty four team to today

1:02:46

what has been the impact on the russian economy

1:02:48

of ah the sanctions were imposed after

1:02:51

a crime yeah and after the invasion

1:02:53

recent crane at what what impact is that had on

1:02:55

the economy and rush

1:02:57

you have that to differentiate

1:03:00

between short term effects

1:03:02

and a long term effects so

1:03:05

a beacon twenty fourteen when

1:03:07

i was still a stock market come and taser

1:03:10

it's and the sanctions were

1:03:12

imposed that was like sort of

1:03:14

course ah it's sad

1:03:17

obviously fertile economy tremendously

1:03:20

not on this ah those sanctions

1:03:22

of a bitch were imposed by europe

1:03:25

and the united states but also

1:03:28

we ah i'm in

1:03:30

they're only of the political leadership of russia

1:03:32

impose its own come to send

1:03:35

send and her so

1:03:38

any band ah

1:03:41

food the boards and things like that

1:03:43

and so are they needed assessed

1:03:45

ah one

1:03:48

incredible in place and a low them

1:03:50

insurgency ah

1:03:54

like a fool in the ah

1:03:56

stock market prices etc etc

1:03:59

up ah our

1:04:02

economy and ah so

1:04:04

authentic the managed

1:04:08

to adapt to this new environment

1:04:11

sir and now those and

1:04:14

i was the are negative health effects

1:04:17

ah , been largely

1:04:19

mitigated by one

1:04:21

is so what is what

1:04:24

what what sanctions play a role

1:04:27

and negative oh and of

1:04:29

course our economy

1:04:31

at ah discount is stagnating

1:04:34

we , see any substantial growth

1:04:36

and now autonomy any prospects

1:04:39

prospects and that's a big problem and

1:04:41

i think our those sanctions would

1:04:43

contribute to our

1:04:46

ah technological but

1:04:52

we laugh behind other countries

1:04:54

in terms of ah

1:04:57

technological development

1:04:59

the am so ,

1:05:01

things today the big question question

1:05:03

know there's over one hundred and twenty thousand russian

1:05:06

troops now and circling and

1:05:09

from russia and dollars on

1:05:11

what and you think the news doing

1:05:13

and why do you think is doing

1:05:16

i can say i wouldn't mind i

1:05:18

think nobody is unpleasant vide and

1:05:20

can do that server

1:05:23

, of fear

1:05:25

is and is spam

1:05:27

okay the air

1:05:29

a couple of days i read and

1:05:32

all those difference as

1:05:34

fear is ah about foods

1:05:36

in and what it s what

1:05:38

is on his my but now with you know this

1:05:40

because i'm in position as a fraud business

1:05:43

ah yeah defending whole

1:05:45

wall okay

1:05:49

the education is very difficult

1:05:51

for a full of letting up with right now

1:05:54

if cause he has

1:05:56

to decide what's his name

1:06:00

the to start who

1:06:02

kill a minute the refs race

1:06:05

and it my bill an aberration in ukraine

1:06:07

or to withdraw i think

1:06:09

that's the laffer is elise

1:06:12

probable oh , ah

1:06:15

i know that are the whole world world

1:06:18

spread supplied especially political

1:06:20

leaders are paid for by is what's going on the

1:06:22

ah the , russia

1:06:24

and ukraine ah in

1:06:26

russia people

1:06:29

the general public the i'm not interested

1:06:31

in all foreign affairs a school and

1:06:34

a defeat device what they think

1:06:36

according to the most recent polls are

1:06:39

being developed i

1:06:42

ah the usa air

1:06:44

is the contrary to blame for

1:06:47

this escalation the

1:06:50

that they think that's ah

1:06:52

the us ah is

1:06:54

force in russia into the war

1:06:57

that is that because of the

1:06:59

russian media you know that producers

1:07:02

absolutely people ,

1:07:04

just do not want to hear

1:07:06

a dig deeper into this matter of to

1:07:09

find out out is

1:07:11

right and what is wrong and

1:07:14

in this case because there is no interest

1:07:16

in foreign affairs and in particular

1:07:18

in ukraine people are tired

1:07:20

of this thought that ah

1:07:22

am so of course they tend

1:07:25

to believe the what

1:07:27

ah what the russian front of them

1:07:29

russian front

1:07:31

the i'm in a what

1:07:33

do you think do

1:07:36

you think that this if he if he were to move

1:07:38

into ukraine with a military

1:07:40

operation do think

1:07:43

the dead to support among

1:07:45

the russian people would be the same

1:07:47

as a was the in crimea

1:07:50

particularly if it if it ends up being a more costly

1:07:52

work because the ukrainians fight back

1:07:54

i mean how would you anticipate

1:07:56

the russian reaction to a

1:07:59

more difficult conflict

1:08:01

and and more sanctions and and

1:08:04

all the consequences could come from come

1:08:06

from war in ukraine ah

1:08:11

there are ways of approval of

1:08:13

putting right now is stable

1:08:16

here has not profited from their

1:08:18

current escalation inside the country

1:08:20

at school the political point

1:08:22

of view ah people

1:08:24

russians many russians ah grade

1:08:27

they have a lot of fear is ah

1:08:30

off for our air full

1:08:33

scale war but they think that

1:08:36

ah rush second hardly

1:08:38

would it oh me out

1:08:41

than to reconcile with the

1:08:43

fact that russia

1:08:45

will be at war with ukraine

1:08:48

but they do not think that it

1:08:50

is

1:08:50

the war with ukraine they

1:08:52

think that it's a proxy war between

1:08:54

russia and the united states of

1:08:56

america in ukraine and

1:08:59

ukraine

1:09:00

he regarded is a moran that

1:09:02

in the and in and in in situation

1:09:09

the ah war were

1:09:11

talking right now this probable war i

1:09:13

hope we can still of would that scenario

1:09:15

but this promo both won't be

1:09:18

widely supported

1:09:19

russia because it

1:09:21

involves a lot of of

1:09:23

economic cost a lot of social costs

1:09:26

and ah a lot

1:09:28

of variables which variables feel

1:09:30

i'm new here it's not like

1:09:32

a like see them militant

1:09:34

reservation it wouldn't hey neil

1:09:37

it

1:09:38

me and even the russian political

1:09:40

leadership cannot predict some

1:09:43

are of the factors and

1:09:45

that's my problem their reluctance to

1:09:47

launch a land operation

1:09:50

in the ukraine and also you

1:09:52

have to understand wanting in

1:09:54

crime the yeah there was a lot of local support

1:09:57

for the annexation of crimea yeah

1:10:00

the large majority russian speaking

1:10:02

population and crime much more historical

1:10:04

ties right as an obama

1:10:07

hey yeah

1:10:09

in the rest of ukraine the

1:10:12

situation is different

1:10:13

the local people will not support

1:10:17

ah russia and

1:10:19

the than us what pudding so still

1:10:22

tend to ah have

1:10:24

a good attitude towards russia

1:10:27

a rush some but not towards the

1:10:29

russian political leadership so

1:10:31

, if if means that my

1:10:34

below the resistance and side

1:10:41

the offensive to start

1:10:43

a full scale new revelation he

1:10:46

trained and i hope that

1:10:48

ah russia and the i

1:10:51

senior defensive thorazine

1:10:53

offices know understand those

1:10:55

risks that they cannot calculate right

1:10:57

now at all

1:10:59

and i'm a big and about all other like

1:11:01

as external factors like same

1:11:03

sense as i

1:11:05

as afraid as breathing etc

1:11:07

etc

1:11:09

what do you think about those him in do think those who have a

1:11:11

big impact on russia that , sanctions

1:11:14

have been talked about cutting off access to technologies

1:11:17

technologies banks do things

1:11:19

that can impact prudent thinking i

1:11:23

think

1:11:24

that that i'm a deal as so

1:11:26

those there are different types assumptions

1:11:28

and the most ah

1:11:32

that who wants ah

1:11:35

the most negative ones for the rest economy

1:11:37

it's ah maybe

1:11:39

those sanctions imposed ah

1:11:41

on on russia back oh

1:11:44

and an idea is to isolate

1:11:47

our band system from the rest

1:11:49

from the global banking system which

1:11:52

he reaches of course ah

1:11:54

something are really dangerous

1:11:56

and it will have an immediate negative

1:11:59

impact

1:12:00

on our economy on on the russian

1:12:02

economy ah well i

1:12:04

think there's another

1:12:07

a dangerous thing for a not

1:12:09

for us all russians by for

1:12:11

the russian and leads ah

1:12:14

ah schools individualist sanctions

1:12:17

you know and they have been widely

1:12:19

debated recently ah

1:12:21

an hour so

1:12:23

our elites are deeply

1:12:26

integrated into the into

1:12:28

the global and into the global world

1:12:30

into the western world

1:12:32

they have bank accounts they have businesses

1:12:35

in the west

1:12:37

yeah they have like children service

1:12:39

ah leave and sodding

1:12:42

the west and of course that

1:12:44

is extremely oh and

1:12:47

pm ah

1:12:48

why didn't put in his position seems

1:12:51

to be really strong five she has

1:12:53

to balance different interests

1:12:56

and , please the elites

1:12:58

and the general public and those

1:13:00

goals ema us those it

1:13:02

happens in a pool of inquisitive now

1:13:05

the have a lot of challenges and of what

1:13:07

he defense on our

1:13:09

on he's a leaves a lot and

1:13:12

she doesn't have the something that camps

1:13:14

profoundly heard ah

1:13:16

his elite

1:13:19

and you are you have seen go oleksyn

1:13:21

of all me and and and that many opposition

1:13:24

figures we'd seen your ,

1:13:26

taken in recent months not only to

1:13:28

poison of on the and throw him in prison but

1:13:30

the kind of break up and eliminate liquidators

1:13:33

network network

1:13:35

well as organizations like memorial

1:13:38

like , to the side immunization what it's what do

1:13:40

you hear from the people you know

1:13:42

in in in russian opposition circles about

1:13:44

how they are doing and how they're looking at

1:13:48

well first of all lot of people fled

1:13:50

russia

1:13:52

i mean a lot a lot of people

1:13:54

by the i more than one thousand

1:13:57

people one thousand and five hundred

1:13:59

people

1:14:00

to some estimates fled restaurant

1:14:02

last year and those are excess

1:14:04

people those ah ah

1:14:07

opposition activists with and

1:14:09

journalists oh

1:14:11

well as i don't think

1:14:13

that they're overly optimistic

1:14:16

about yeah oppression need

1:14:18

another factor as something

1:14:20

to change for the better in the foreseeable

1:14:23

future and ,

1:14:25

in a very difficult situation right

1:14:27

now because they they to

1:14:29

ah flee roswell they are now

1:14:32

based in different parts of the

1:14:34

of because you know

1:14:36

because of of them both of them if they can't

1:14:39

obtain visas to enter the european

1:14:41

union ah am

1:14:43

so they have to start ass

1:14:46

ah to build a new

1:14:48

wife which is very physical

1:14:51

ah yeah i think this is

1:14:54

psychologically air it's extremely

1:14:56

difficult for many people and

1:14:58

vs ah most

1:15:00

of them are ah sober thinkers

1:15:03

and the understand that

1:15:06

, the regime is very flexible

1:15:08

it's for adaptive and

1:15:13

sigh she is very apathetic

1:15:16

answer ah you

1:15:18

can see any drivers

1:15:21

inside the society and little

1:15:23

so you can look at our our

1:15:25

at poke races across the world for

1:15:27

example iran iran

1:15:30

has been our leave and on the see

1:15:32

this for many years fable

1:15:37

unfortunately yeah ,

1:15:40

right now expects any

1:15:43

and you want a better this

1:15:46

is jason is brady is pretty brief

1:15:49

what what do you think your father would say if he was

1:15:51

here today in montreal probably

1:15:54

descending

1:15:55

my father was a political vision or a

1:15:57

that's why he has sold everything

1:15:59

else the

1:16:00

about a year off this of this wheezy

1:16:03

sell at it in two thousand and eight at

1:16:05

an age he our to five in

1:16:07

a conference in italy and

1:16:10

, and there was still in media you

1:16:12

can find it on you tube and put himself in russian

1:16:15

but but predicts said

1:16:18

he was good at predictions by the ways

1:16:20

and he was ways said ah that's

1:16:22

ah the current political alliance

1:16:25

to them are by vladimir putins

1:16:28

would leave and set it to those consequences

1:16:30

which we are witnessing road tom

1:16:33

isolation bad relationships

1:16:35

with the

1:16:37

our neighbors bad

1:16:39

, with the west ah

1:16:42

as stagnation and economy as

1:16:45

so i think that he he

1:16:48

he understood ah

1:16:50

it kinda sad very early what

1:16:53

a concept of consequences would be

1:16:55

off rusher of arm

1:16:57

, he also understood

1:17:00

that ah it's the

1:17:05

who are ah for a

1:17:07

change her i

1:17:09

happened in russia he used

1:17:11

to say like you know that is not a sprint

1:17:14

were involved in it's a marathon and

1:17:16

we have to leave was in russia to

1:17:19

see any change the archangel

1:17:21

the within a decade

1:17:23

we can seize see something seventy

1:17:26

i'm not very optimistic i'm sorry

1:17:29

now we'll see while in any case be stay safe

1:17:31

and say well and and thanks so much for

1:17:33

for talking with us here

1:17:41

okay thank you to happen belsen and john and

1:17:43

i'm sober hard to guess today thank

1:17:45

you for going on thursday dives

1:17:47

into the past and

1:17:49

present of lemon pudding with us again

1:17:52

want to express on bath of this

1:17:54

entire community of people work

1:17:56

on this podcast and listen to this podcast

1:17:59

and been guess on the barca suffered from

1:18:01

are a lot of people have been guests a how much

1:18:03

we're thinking of tommy and hannah right now and

1:18:05

again or you can look to those organizations

1:18:07

if you want to make a donation and sport

1:18:09

of a cause that i know would mean ah to timing

1:18:11

hannah spot with that we

1:18:14

will see you guys are , will

1:18:16

see you guys certainly certainly week

1:18:19

for was more than pack and pencils

1:18:35

positive the world is a crooked media production

1:18:37

the executive producer is michael martinez our

1:18:39

producer retailing it's it's mixing edited

1:18:41

by andrew chuckling kyle seguin is our

1:18:43

sound engineer thanks to our digital team

1:18:46

elijah cone joffre and phoebe

1:18:48

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