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Avoid or prohibited by law. See terms and

1:00

conditions. Hello,

1:29

I'm Martin Wolisher, host, and

1:31

welcome to the show, Podcast

1:34

UFO and Weekly Show. I

1:36

have a lot of great fans from over the

1:38

years, and I want to thank

1:41

you all for watching the show. And I

1:43

want to thank the people that support the

1:45

show. And whether you're supporting me

1:47

or not, I do thank you. And

1:49

our blog this week is... There is

1:52

no blog. Charles is in

1:54

a play opening this week, so he wasn't

1:56

able to put out a blog. So

1:58

there's still plenty to be done. read over at

2:00

podcast UFO calm where we have new

2:02

blogs generally every single week and They

2:06

turn into an audio blog and

2:08

audio podcast that comes out roughly

2:11

once a week or so we'll get those out

2:13

and Crossfire

2:15

this week you AP

2:17

crossfire. It has been canceled this I've

2:19

been moving From one

2:22

place to another and there's a lot going

2:24

on with everyone So we can't run the

2:26

show this week, but we'll be back next

2:28

week and soon we will have I

2:31

believe hopefully Danny Sheehan on with

2:35

also with Kevin Wright On

2:38

the advocacy ad that's

2:40

can't remember his the name of his

2:42

group But

2:44

it's you you AP transparency.

2:46

It's basically the subtitle of

2:48

it they'll both be

2:50

on crossfire coming up soon, so Keep

2:54

in mind that's every Thursday night generally speaking

2:56

except for this week so our guest tonight

2:58

Jim low He has done a lot of

3:01

research into what

3:03

it would be like to have a UFO briefing

3:05

book a guide for Congress

3:07

or someone if they were

3:09

looking into this topic in a serious way and

3:12

he had some UFO encounters when he was young

3:14

and I'm going to bring him in

3:16

now and Welcome to the

3:18

show Jim Thank you

3:21

very much Martin And

3:23

as a the watcher of

3:25

YouTube can see you're in sunny weather out

3:27

in, California Which

3:30

is a nice area to be? Not

3:32

only you didn't get caught up in the

3:34

flood you were saying that's that's great. Oh,

3:36

no, I was I'm

3:38

in an area in the mountains that normally gets

3:41

the flooding, but the coast got it this time.

3:43

Oh All right, that's

3:45

good. So So

3:48

thank you for You actually reached

3:50

out to me you had written this book. I think

3:52

it's an interesting book and What

3:56

I guess I want to ask you what inspired you

4:00

to write this in the beginning? Well,

4:05

I'm a retired attorney and for 25 years

4:07

I was going to retire

4:11

and write an election law book. And

4:14

then on my 65th birthday, December 17th, December

4:20

16th, 2017, the Politico and the New York Times came

4:23

out with the three videos. Wow,

4:31

that was like your birthday? Yeah, 65th birthday.

4:35

Now I'll always remember your birthday because I remember

4:37

that date. Me

4:41

and Beethoven. But

4:45

it made me think about what I was doing. Having

4:49

practiced government law for close

4:52

to 40 years, I

4:55

kept my experiences pretty much

4:57

to myself because representing politicians,

5:00

it's not the best thing to do to talk

5:02

about UFO encounters.

5:07

It could be used against you in the courtroom. So

5:10

having practiced election

5:12

law and represented

5:14

local and regional governments, I'd

5:17

always lean that way. But my

5:20

interest has always been something

5:22

I've been kept

5:24

to myself. And then

5:26

when that came out, I

5:28

saw that as a trigger, which

5:31

it certainly did trigger

5:33

things into

5:36

the possibility of disclosure. And

5:39

having worked with hundreds of elected

5:42

officials over the years, I know

5:46

what they go through and what

5:48

they perceive of the world

5:50

around them. And jumping

5:53

off into an issue

5:56

like UFOs, it happened

5:59

at Dennis Kossi. image, you

6:01

know, back in 1992, and I remember that political career.

6:07

Yeah. And, yep. And so I

6:10

saw this as a way to sort

6:13

of educate elected

6:16

officials, primarily. And so I wrote

6:18

the UFO briefing book, a

6:21

congressional guide to the UAP

6:23

phenomenon. Back

6:25

in 2021, six

6:28

months, I got it published

6:32

four months before the director

6:39

of national intelligence issued their

6:41

first preliminary assessment. And

6:43

what I wanted to do is predict what

6:46

they were going to say, and then explain

6:50

members of Congress, what

6:52

would happen if they

6:54

followed certain rules, or

6:56

procedures that would help them sort

6:59

of peel back the onion, so to speak.

7:02

And so I, I

7:04

was writing one book on

7:07

UFOs at the time, and

7:09

I dropped it and picked up this book and wrote

7:11

it in six months and, and

7:13

put it out. Wow. Most

7:15

of the copies that I

7:18

didn't, I didn't market it. I

7:20

went on two podcasts and figured this is

7:22

a waste of time. And

7:25

because at the time, it wasn't, it

7:28

wasn't as big an issue. You know, the

7:30

UFO community was well aware what was going

7:33

on, but the general public

7:35

didn't. And so I what

7:38

I did was I put something

7:40

together, it would be more aimed

7:42

at elected officials and, and

7:44

what they can do within their role.

7:46

And I distributed over 200 copies to

7:50

members of the National Security Committees

7:52

in Congress. And from

7:55

the feedback I've gotten, it

7:57

was well received. And

8:00

And Harry Reid sent

8:02

me a personal note. He was retired at the

8:04

time, saying that

8:07

it was done well and that he was

8:09

happy for my interest in this vital subject.

8:13

And so while I

8:15

was writing, I was sending the books, I

8:17

wasn't getting a response. And I don't live

8:19

in Washington or play along

8:22

Washington. You've

8:27

had people on the deal in

8:29

Washington, but I was looking at

8:31

it as an outsider from the

8:33

political perspective, how they

8:35

would go about this. And

8:38

so I predicted that

8:41

the intelligence and the military would

8:43

slow walk anything. They would be

8:45

like pulling teeth and

8:49

that they'd

8:51

have to boost the protections

8:53

for whistleblowers, put

8:56

together legislation

9:00

to allow the release of

9:04

NDAs, non-disclosure agreements.

9:09

I have a friend,

9:11

Robert Salihas, who

9:15

was forced to sign one of those agreements and

9:17

never seen a copy of it. So

9:22

I started down that road and

9:24

made some recommendations. And so far,

9:27

most of the recommendations I've put

9:29

together have been put into law.

9:32

Now whether that's coincidence or not, I

9:34

don't know, but I know I

9:36

was along that path. So I have

9:38

a new book out now, Threat to

9:40

the Body Politic from Foo Fighters

9:44

to UAP. And

9:46

that's also available at bookstores

9:48

in Amazon. In

9:52

that book, I try to go back

9:54

to the beginnings of what the,

9:56

not the UFO policy is, whether

9:59

they're real. or not, because lots of

10:01

people have done that. And

10:03

I went back and looked at how

10:06

the process began that

10:11

led to the stigma that we

10:13

all feel about the subject. And centered

10:16

on the Robertson panel in 1953. Yeah,

10:20

and there's been a

10:22

lot written on the Robertson panel,

10:25

but mostly saying that they

10:27

got the UFO issue wrong. And

10:30

I ignored that part of it pretty much,

10:32

and looked at what they did

10:35

that sort of start the debunking

10:37

process. And so I traced

10:40

through declassified records and

10:43

stories mostly from government

10:45

officials, either state,

10:47

local or federal, how

10:50

they were cast

10:54

and treated very unfairly.

10:57

Now your typical person who saw UFO

10:59

back then was

11:02

usually just lights in the sky. But

11:05

when you had someone like Rex

11:07

Heflin in 1965, who

11:10

saw a structured craft, very

11:13

close, took three Polaroids at a

11:16

time when trying to fake a

11:18

Polaroid was near impossible for

11:20

a traffic engineer, let

11:24

alone someone in Hollywood, that

11:27

you know, the way he was

11:30

approached, the way they stole his

11:32

photographs, I

11:34

found a pattern of these kinds of things in

11:37

the records. Many of the

11:39

records were like

11:41

I found civil

11:43

rights violations in the FBI records

11:45

committed by the Air Force, but

11:48

the FBI didn't have records about

11:50

their violations. Those I

11:52

found in CIA records. And so

11:55

a lot of cross-checking of records,

11:57

I was able to come up with a- a- a

12:01

series of they couldn't be coincidences.

12:03

They were just so many times

12:06

where they people would

12:08

approach the government say I've got

12:10

the Theirs is the famous

12:12

picture. I've been on that street looking

12:15

that direction. There's a big shopping mall

12:17

there now But

12:19

uh, I don't doubt it. Yeah. Yeah,

12:21

it's like everything else in California. It's a

12:24

mall Yeah This

12:26

is the one right outside of his pickup truck

12:28

window Yeah, first first

12:31

Polaroid I believe and the

12:33

last one I don't the last one I

12:35

don't see it. It shows like a streak

12:37

of smoke if I remember right? Yep a

12:39

smoke ring that he never showed up Yeah,

12:41

yeah, yeah a smoke ring and is in

12:44

his co-workers laughed at it. So he

12:46

never showed it around So when the

12:48

quote unquote nor read Officers

12:52

show up and he gave

12:54

his photographs to them They

12:57

disappeared for 22 years and they returned them

13:00

to him when he was dying

13:02

of cancer in retirement And

13:05

so someone had to hold on to those photographs

13:08

for 22 year 27 years almost

13:12

actually and So

13:15

I found a pattern of these kinds of

13:17

things where your typical person

13:20

was who took a picture of a

13:22

UFO They

13:24

showed a structured craft not lights in the sky,

13:27

but You know

13:29

the type of pictures that would not

13:31

be considered swamp gas, you know There

13:34

there wouldn't be an explanation for that.

13:36

They would take these pictures and Most

13:39

them they had no interest in the

13:41

UFO subject before they took the pictures

13:44

Each one of them approached the government to

13:47

say I've got these do you

13:49

want them and? I want

13:51

them back and they take them and steal

13:53

them never give them back Anything

13:56

Rex heffernan's case they claimed he

13:58

was a hoaxer How

14:01

many hope there's turnover their originals to

14:03

the government? Yeah, that's right.

14:06

This is a smoke. That's it So

14:08

yes, and they're in this They

14:13

for years they were in the safe. I'm trying

14:15

to members of female Ufologists

14:18

are really well known in California. I can't

14:20

remember her name. I spoke with her

14:22

daughter. Her daughter was on my show Anyway,

14:25

they were in there in their safe. They're

14:27

in the safe in their house. Oh, really?

14:29

Okay Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

14:32

Yeah. I'm drawing a blank on her

14:34

name too, but yeah She's really well

14:36

known she passed away. I think

14:38

maybe five or six years ago very well

14:40

known She wrote

14:43

the book firestorm about

14:45

all right. I'm gonna look her up just because

14:47

I want to pay good tribute to her But

14:52

anyway, so let's talk

14:54

about you you had You

14:59

had a you some UFO sightings Yourself,

15:03

right? Oh, yes. I'm

15:06

what is generically called an

15:09

experiencer and

15:11

so I've had experiences pretty

15:14

much my whole life and First

15:17

when I remember I was five and a half

15:19

years old It was

15:21

the weekend before kindergarten

15:24

started and I was

15:26

out in the country with my dad and my

15:29

aunt and uncle and their family camping

15:32

and and I was I Was

15:36

five and a half and the next Youngest

15:39

person was about 13. So

15:42

there was a big gap between everyone and

15:45

I was very hyperactive and so they

15:47

they told me You

15:49

know, why don't you just look

15:51

up at the sky and look for Sputnik, you

15:54

know to keep me busy And

15:56

while they were sitting over in campfire drinking

15:59

and telling stories or and

16:04

I looked off to a cow pasture that was

16:06

about 500 to 1000 feet away from us and I saw this

16:11

object that was probably the size of

16:14

a full moon and

16:16

it was dripping metal off of it. It

16:18

looked like it was and it was shooting

16:21

off sparks. In fact I

16:23

talked to Colonel Halt

16:26

about it because it looked remarkably

16:28

like the one at Rambleton Forest.

16:31

Right, he said it looked like an eyeball and it

16:33

was dripping magna. Exactly.

16:36

And this was late summer

16:38

and the cow pasture was

16:40

dry and so whatever it

16:42

was it didn't

16:45

you know it didn't catch fire. So

16:47

I remember looking looking

16:50

at it and then looking back at

16:52

my family and

16:55

they were all just staring with

16:57

their mouths open dumbfounded. Later

16:59

on I sort of compared it to

17:02

a Steven Spielberg movie where they always

17:04

had normal people just looking perplexed

17:08

and it reminded me

17:10

of a few scenes of Close Encounters. But

17:13

I'm looking at them and that's the

17:15

last thing I remember. And

17:18

I remember waking up the next morning and

17:22

coming out outside

17:25

from the ref cabin that the

17:28

family was working on. And

17:31

everyone was sitting around the campfire having

17:34

breakfast drinking coffee and talking about

17:37

the comet they saw. So

17:40

being a five and a half year old I

17:42

thought comets just flew over cow pastures and you

17:45

know and so

17:48

you know I go wow and

17:50

now I've seen a comet. So

17:53

the next morning is Monday and

17:55

I'm going off to kindergarten. I

17:57

think that's one of the reasons I remember this so well

17:59

because it's It was right at that

18:01

time in my life, whenever you started,

18:05

you remember long

18:07

bits of time. And

18:10

I asked my dad what he thought, wasn't

18:12

that neat seeing the comet? And my

18:14

dad said, I don't know what you're talking about. And

18:18

so I just sort of dropped it, went

18:21

off to kindergarten. So

18:24

later on, I'm in

18:27

high school and then going into

18:29

college, and I still have this

18:31

impression that comets are really big

18:33

things that stop and everything else. And

18:36

I knew from science books that that didn't make

18:38

sense. And then I

18:40

actually saw my first comet when

18:42

I was in my teens or

18:45

early 20s. And I

18:47

remember how disappointed I was. I go,

18:49

that's not big. It didn't have

18:51

metal dripping off of it. It's

18:54

funny how I kept that,

18:57

not only that memory, but that understanding

18:59

despite the fact that I learned in

19:01

science. Well, before you

19:03

move on to anything else, I'd like to

19:06

tell you about an encounter that

19:09

was told to me by someone not

19:11

really into the UFO world or whatever,

19:13

just someone I know in the outside

19:15

world. She's actually an

19:18

author of antique books and things like

19:20

that. And she was a

19:22

Girl Scout. And they

19:24

were on an island on

19:27

a lake. And they were camping out.

19:29

They had the campfire going. And they saw

19:31

this thing come over them. She

19:34

said it kind of looked like the size of the moon

19:36

type of thing. It came over them and then it appeared

19:38

to be right over them. And

19:40

she said the next thing she remembers, she woke

19:42

up in the morning in her

19:44

tent and was

19:47

asking the different

19:50

people, hey, what about what we saw

19:52

last night? And they said they didn't

19:54

remember or they didn't know anything. And

19:56

then to the leader, the Girl Scout

19:58

leader, she said, that don't you even

20:01

think about talking about it. That's

20:03

what she said to her. So

20:05

that was her impression. I mean, there

20:07

is some similarities there. That's why I

20:10

thought I'd bring it up. That was-

20:12

No, it's good. Exactly. You know, about

20:15

2012, 2013, I

20:19

decided I was just gonna sort

20:21

of open up my mind and talk to

20:24

people about this. And so I started going

20:26

to conferences. And what I found is listening

20:30

to the speakers was nice, but

20:32

talking to other experiences over

20:34

there, ones that have had

20:37

these experiences, I joined Yvonne

20:39

Smith's- Oh, yeah. CERO

20:42

group, the Close Encounters

20:44

Resource Organization. And

20:47

I've learned more from other

20:49

experiences than I've learned from

20:52

all the books and all the podcasts,

20:54

no offense. But in fact, probably

20:56

a lot of your listeners fit

20:58

in the same category as me. And

21:04

you learn so much and

21:07

you stop being surprised about

21:09

similarities like that. Right.

21:12

Yeah. Yeah. I

21:15

do think it's funny. You hear a

21:17

lot of people say either they

21:19

don't talk about it the next day or

21:23

people don't remember, which is really, I

21:26

mean, it's such a dramatic

21:28

situation. I

21:31

recently listened to the Allagash. The

21:35

Allagash incident, the two, it

21:38

was Jim Weiner and Charlie

21:41

Foltz that were talking about it. And I got to

21:43

meet them at that conference they were at, but I

21:45

was listening to it again. And it's

21:48

basically the same thing. It

21:50

happened to them and they just like move

21:52

on and boy, that's strange. The fire had

21:55

burned down. And if anyone wants to check

21:57

out that case, it's a fascinating case and

21:59

eyes on. Cinema on

22:01

YouTube has posted the conference that I

22:03

was at where they spoke. It's very

22:05

interesting Their whole

22:08

whole life all for them their

22:10

lives changed and they never really

22:12

realized they were abducted until you

22:14

know Ten years after but their

22:17

whole life's changed in their artwork. They were

22:19

all artists their artwork all changed dramatically and

22:22

Since that encounter which is

22:25

another fascinating thing when

22:27

people's lives change Ivan

22:30

Smith has written a book

22:32

called Coronado. Oh, yeah a

22:35

joint abduction and the

22:37

day after they all the group Left

22:41

the conference and drove

22:43

back to Los Angeles in different cars.

22:46

They were meeting at a restaurant up

22:49

the coast towards LA and And

22:53

They were most Mostly irritated with each other

22:55

and didn't want to talk about it and

22:57

a lot of them never talked to each

23:00

other again They were friends before and

23:02

so something drove them apart How

23:05

about that? Yeah, I remember her

23:07

talking about that. I had her on the show years ago When

23:11

I think actually before she wrote the book

23:13

or maybe about that same time But

23:16

I know the hotel I used to go there

23:18

when I lived in the sandy in San Diego

23:20

area Years ago beautiful

23:22

beautiful place. That was a strange

23:24

encounter. That's another one to look

23:26

up This

23:28

is a question we have dr. Richardson

23:31

about every show. Thank you for the

23:33

questions I do have any theories

23:35

about what the visitors are up to I Think

23:41

my thinking is they're not here to

23:43

take us over because I

23:50

Don't I don't believe this is the

23:52

case, but let's assume they got here in World War

23:54

two the Foodfighters

23:56

started showing up You

23:59

Know. If gonna attack

24:01

somebody. You. Don't wait eighty

24:03

years till they get. Better.

24:05

Able to defend themselves in

24:07

the Us? I don't I

24:09

don't think they're ousted overtly

24:11

do that, but I think

24:13

it's a mixed bag. My

24:16

guess is a mixed bag

24:18

of different ethnicities. And

24:20

from different locations? Perhaps not

24:22

all from this dimension. And

24:25

dungeons I think that some

24:27

of mean well and others

24:29

are probably just ah in

24:32

mop in my a book.

24:34

Threat. To the body politic and the last

24:36

chapter I talk about. The

24:39

are probably for to ever get. Excuse

24:43

me. They're. Probably for

24:45

different categories. There's a because I'm

24:47

right. that book I wrote. To.

24:51

Inform Congress and they have

24:53

the knowledge of your listener

24:55

base. You. Know they're learning

24:57

this from scratch. My An

24:59

so the first possibilities hostility

25:02

and I don't To the

25:04

reason I said, I don't

25:06

think they're hostile in that

25:08

regard. The next is transactional.

25:11

That they're here for resources

25:13

just like. You. Know

25:15

Chevron goes to I

25:18

Nigeria. You know to

25:20

drill for oil. You. Know they're

25:22

doing that kind of thing,

25:24

as that's one possibility. Someone

25:26

could just be here for

25:29

purely transactional purposes. In possibly

25:31

the abduction program is that.

25:33

Ah, In that the hybrid

25:35

Isation program. I'm then

25:38

there could be it could

25:40

be entering a third down.

25:42

Agree. That. They're.

25:44

Just years you observe because

25:47

we've got nuclear weapons. And

25:49

we're trying to launch into space.

25:52

and so you know what you

25:54

want to keep an eye on

25:56

the local i'm civilization like that

25:59

isn't and is that

26:01

they're positive and

26:04

a fourth is that they're

26:06

positive. And if

26:10

they were, are they

26:12

really going to just show up and say, hey we're

26:14

here, hi, you know,

26:16

no they're not. There are

26:19

probably protocols in place to keep societies

26:22

like ours from not

26:25

going through the right steps. And

26:29

you know, just you don't hand,

26:33

you don't hand people, you know, in the

26:35

Middle Ages nuclear weapons. Yeah,

26:37

you know, you don't give them machine guns. You

26:41

know, you don't, you know, if we were to

26:43

go back in time. So they

26:46

would, you know, I'm

26:48

not just taking this from Star Trek, I really

26:50

think there has to be some sort of ground

26:53

rules that civilizations have

26:56

when they approach a society

26:58

like ours. Because you

27:01

want them to develop naturally, where they're

27:03

not just going to be

27:05

given something ahead of time and jump

27:07

into space and start trying to take

27:09

over other planets. And, you

27:13

know, once you achieve that nuclear

27:15

stage, see, notice

27:18

that all, you know, the biggest portion

27:20

of our understanding

27:22

of UFOs comes from the

27:25

1940s on. And

27:27

so what were we doing

27:29

then? We're putting together a nuclear weapon. And

27:32

so even if they're supportive

27:34

of us, I would think

27:37

that they would sit back and wait. And

27:39

that's what they've been doing. Curt

27:43

Jaimungal Yeah, yeah, this there hasn't, there

27:45

hasn't been a lot of interference.

27:47

You know, that is

27:50

a question a lot of people

27:52

ask, you know, like, what, why don't they

27:54

show themselves, you know, show themselves on

27:57

the White House lawn, blah, blah, blah, you hear

27:59

that a lot of times. all the time, things like that. And,

28:03

you know, I think there's definitely fears

28:06

involved here, like what do they want?

28:09

You know, why are they even here to begin with,

28:11

you know, that type of thing, whatever

28:14

they are. And I think

28:16

you're right, too. I don't think

28:19

it's just one type of

28:21

situation, one type of entity,

28:23

whatever that is showing

28:25

up here. I think it could

28:27

be a lot

28:30

of different things. And, you know, there's

28:32

always the argument from skeptics that they

28:34

could never get here. It's too

28:37

far to travel and all

28:39

that. But obviously, whatever

28:41

is getting here has figured out how to get

28:43

here, wherever they're from.

28:45

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28:48

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28:50

you do when you win? Like are

28:52

you a fist pumper, a woohooer, a hand

28:54

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G-O-L-O dot com. You know there's

30:18

just too many things that

30:21

have been witnessed to say otherwise

30:24

you know at this point. So

30:27

how do you think the

30:29

government's been handling the situation?

30:33

That's a schizophrenic answer. I'm

30:40

expectedly disappointed

30:42

in the defense and intelligence

30:45

communities. But

30:47

I'm very happy with how

30:49

Congress has handled this. Until

30:53

this last year, you

30:55

haven't had a

30:58

lot of pushback and the

31:01

recent pushback, I don't want to go down that

31:03

rabbit hole, but when

31:05

was the last time you ever

31:08

heard Congress passing laws three years

31:10

in a row on the same

31:12

subject? They usually get it done

31:16

in one year and I've

31:19

worked on legislation for years. What

31:22

you do is you put together a package to

31:25

address whatever the issue is.

31:27

It takes compromises. You

31:29

finally put it together.

31:32

Everyone's happy. You pass it. You cut

31:34

the ribbon. You

31:37

have your congratulations, then you

31:39

move on to the next topic. Here,

31:42

occasionally you'll bring back

31:44

what curative legislation it's called where

31:47

you made a mistake. But both

31:49

in the Trump administration

31:52

and the Biden administration,

31:54

you did not have

31:57

overt pushback of the Congress. on

32:01

these issues. The pushback

32:03

came from below. And

32:06

so look at it this way. I think,

32:09

you know, right now, you know,

32:11

the Trump administration, the actual presidential

32:13

admin, the office of the president,

32:17

didn't really push back to this. And

32:21

then when Biden came in, you

32:23

don't have the same kind of pushbacks. He signed all

32:26

the bills. In

32:28

the first bill, he

32:31

issued a signing statement that

32:33

said that the National Defense

32:35

Authorization Act of 2022 adopted

32:37

in 2021, they always do

32:39

it a year ahead of

32:41

the fiscal year. That

32:44

particular signing statement

32:48

pointed to the Defense Act, which

32:50

is a massive bill, and

32:52

said, we're going to

32:54

comply with request for information from

32:56

Congress, as long as it

32:59

doesn't reveal battle plans, or

33:01

the names of confidential

33:03

sources, or that kind of thing.

33:07

But he never applied it to UFOs.

33:10

In fact, none of the examples they

33:12

listed, they were all about

33:14

the Afghanistan war and the Iraq war. And

33:18

also Central Command and their

33:20

battle plans for some reason.

33:23

But nothing about UFOs. And so, you

33:25

know, you've got Joe Biden, who's

33:28

the Senate guy. I

33:30

mean, that's his, that's

33:33

his foundation is the Senate. And

33:36

you've got pretty much the leading

33:38

group on this has been the select

33:41

committee on intelligence in

33:43

the Senate. And they've

33:46

been passing out this

33:48

legislation on 17 to

33:50

zero votes. I

33:52

mean, they can't agree that the sun

33:55

is coming up tomorrow. Yeah, I

33:57

know. You know, And

34:00

so we're talking

34:02

about a unique window here

34:05

where as long as

34:07

it stays bipartisan, we

34:10

could make tremendous progress. I

34:12

mean, we've made, they've made

34:14

more progress than the last five years than

34:16

they've made in the last 80. And

34:20

so, you know, you've got

34:22

a core of people. And the interesting thing

34:25

is, if it was just the

34:28

national security people, you're

34:31

going to have senators or senators or congressmen,

34:34

they're going to vote no on the bill,

34:37

because or try to take out

34:39

the UFO stuff, because they think it's crazy.

34:42

Nobody did that. Until,

34:44

you know, this recent thing here, you

34:47

don't have that. So, you know,

34:49

when you're talking about, you

34:51

know, especially a defense

34:53

and intelligence committees, they're

34:58

bipartisan, you know, they have

35:00

people from both parties. And so, you

35:02

know, if you're a rank and file congressman,

35:05

and you're trying to figure out what about this UFO

35:07

bill in

35:10

the National Defense Authorization Act? And

35:13

so they're going to ask one of their

35:15

colleagues, it's, you know, from their party that

35:17

agrees with them, you know, if you're a

35:19

Republican, you're going to ask Mike Gallagher, why

35:23

do you have this crazy stuff in here? He'd

35:26

say, leave it alone. I

35:28

know what I'm talking about. Yeah, you

35:31

know, they're gonna, they

35:33

know so much more than they're telling us

35:35

right now, while they're still because they're still

35:37

trying to figure it out. They

35:40

can't tell us at every stage. But

35:42

there comes a point they're going to have to tell us. And

35:46

you probably what my

35:48

suggestion is

35:51

that they do

35:53

internal briefings on each step.

35:56

Yes, they're real. Yes, they're

35:58

from someplace else know they're not

36:00

from Russia. No, they're not from China.

36:03

They're from someplace else. And

36:05

then next step do another set

36:08

of reasons. They've been doing that since

36:10

1947 though, you know, with the twining

36:13

memo and you know, oh, I agree, this

36:16

is not fictitious. This is real. It's

36:18

not visionary. You know, I

36:20

mean, it keeps in

36:23

and again in 53,

36:26

50 right after the 52 UFO flap,

36:29

you know, they came out again and basically saying it's

36:31

real, you

36:33

know, but they got it. I guess

36:35

they have to reinforce that. So I'm

36:38

sorry, continue on. I just want to make

36:40

that point. Oh, no, no, no, no. That's

36:42

an excellent point. In 1955,

36:44

Senator Richard Russell with the Russell

36:49

office building is named after was

36:52

on a train going from

36:54

Russia to

36:56

Czechoslovakia on a

36:59

mission, you know, for the

37:02

Senate, you know, an investigation tour.

37:05

And a classic

37:07

Billy Meyer UFO flew

37:10

by the plane and a Russian official came in

37:12

and shut all the curtains. So

37:17

there were press in the car in the

37:19

train car. And so

37:22

later they, you know, it got out what

37:24

happened. And so a lot

37:26

of people were asked questions. And so one of a

37:29

reporter asked Richard Russell,

37:31

Senator Russell about it. And

37:34

he said, I've been

37:36

advised by the, you

37:39

know, parts of the government

37:41

that are working on this, and it is

37:43

best not for me to talk about it

37:45

now. Okay, that was 1955.

37:47

The Senate until 2017 18. It

37:49

wasn't talking about

37:54

it at all. And so you this

37:56

to me, that's the difference between now

37:58

and back then. Sure is you

38:00

have you have Congress that is interested in

38:03

it. Yeah, and You

38:05

know if you're a whistleblower Are

38:08

you gonna blow the whistle if

38:10

there's no one they're gonna back you up? Now

38:13

we've got someone that's backing them up. And

38:15

so I know Robert Salus is is already

38:19

Spoken to arrow about his

38:21

incident. Yeah, I'll strum

38:23

UFO incident. Yep, and

38:25

it galls me because Sean

38:28

Kirkpatrick Comes out

38:30

after it retires and says there's no

38:32

evidence No

38:34

first-hand witnesses Yeah,

38:36

and he and Sean Kirkpatrick talked

38:39

to Bob Salus I

38:41

know he did and same as I I brought

38:43

this up many times in the show that also

38:45

Some of this been on the show. I'm a

38:47

friend with his Mario Woods who has Talked

38:50

four hours to them, you know,

38:52

yeah or ours to be exact four

38:54

hours in 19 minutes. He always puts that in But

38:57

yeah, you know first-hand witness again

39:00

Yeah, so no first-hand witness is no evidence

39:03

Yeah, so I think arrow was just

39:05

is just window dressing, you know, we'll

39:07

either Maybe

39:09

the under new leadership. It'll be different, but

39:12

I don't have any real hopes for it

39:15

well, we'll find out in June

39:17

of 2024 when they

39:20

release and they will they won't release it

39:22

on time because they haven't released anything on

39:24

time Yeah, since arrow

39:26

took over but uh,

39:28

whenever they release the history of

39:30

UFO Information

39:34

then we'll know whether they're

39:36

they're Serious

39:42

actors or not, but see you

39:44

can come forward now and You

39:47

know Dave Gresham there are many others

39:49

besides him that have come forward that

39:51

we don't know yet and

39:55

So they they have to

39:57

educate themselves because if they to

40:00

do this if the Republicans tried to

40:02

do this alone or the Democrats, the

40:04

other sides are going to go, you're crazy. They've

40:08

got to do it together. And

40:11

considering that political environment are in,

40:13

it's difficult to do things together.

40:17

And so they've got to figure out a

40:19

way. And so my goal has been, well,

40:22

I haven't worked in Congress myself.

40:24

I've worked with elected officials. And

40:29

for decades, and sit

40:32

down with them, and how do

40:34

you want to do this? Well, if you do

40:36

it that way, it's

40:39

all going to fall apart. But if

40:41

you try this, maybe it'll work. And I'm

40:44

not always right, but I

40:47

see a process that needs to unfold.

40:49

And so besides my book, I started

40:51

a series of blog about

40:56

how they should release,

40:58

how they should start the disclosure

41:00

process. And

41:03

I'll, like the

41:05

book, I'll package it up and, and

41:07

send it to Congress. And, you

41:10

know, if I'm wrong, and there's better way to

41:12

do it, then that's what

41:14

they have staff for. And they

41:17

have, they have good staff

41:19

on this. They have a few staff

41:21

members that are handling this, and they

41:24

will go into some. And they,

41:26

you know, without them know, you

41:29

know, Marco Rubio and Mark Warner,

41:31

the two heads of the

41:33

Senate Intel Committee would not be stepping

41:36

forward. One

41:38

of the things I've thought

41:40

about this, and I don't know, I'm just

41:42

trying to get your opinion on it, is

41:44

that I think they don't

41:46

know the whole picture. And because

41:48

they don't know the whole picture, then

41:51

they can't say that they can protect us

41:53

from it. Right, whatever it

41:55

is. And so that's why I think disclosure is

41:57

going to be very difficult for

41:59

our government to actually come all

42:01

out and say, look, we are being

42:03

visited and we

42:05

don't know exactly what it is. So

42:10

I don't know, you know, I don't know

42:12

if if if we'll

42:14

ever get to that point, because, you

42:17

know, it's only my opinion, but I don't really think

42:19

they know the whole picture. Oh,

42:21

I agree with you on that.

42:24

They're learning the picture and they're

42:26

learning the picture. But what

42:29

we don't know is how much

42:31

they've learned of the puzzle. Like

42:33

I said at the beginning, it's

42:35

an onion. And my guess

42:37

is there are layer layer five of 40. And

42:42

I'm hoping we can keep this going till they

42:44

get to layer 40. So they can do it

42:46

all. You know, but I agree with you.

42:48

They're not, you know, if if if

42:52

they don't know if they're

42:54

worried about hostility, they're not going to bring

42:56

it out. Yeah, especially.

43:00

Yep, this just put up a

43:02

couple of questions here. Has the

43:04

disclosure act been watered down? Yes.

43:07

Yeah, quite a bit, actually. Yeah,

43:10

quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. You

43:12

know, Tim Berchette's done an

43:14

awful lot for UFO

43:18

disclosure. But when

43:21

you compared his bill in

43:23

the house to the

43:25

Mike rounds, Chuck Schumer bill

43:27

in the Senate, I

43:30

Mean, That

44:00

their yeah. They both said

44:02

that they're going to press

44:05

forward and try this year

44:07

to. I reconsidered adopted in

44:10

the difference between the two

44:12

Bill says that's ah, under

44:14

the house version. The

44:17

i'm a lot of the

44:19

power for this is left

44:21

with the agency's themselves old

44:23

the records when you have

44:25

an independent commission. That

44:28

is I badgered and

44:31

I had chosen by.

44:34

The entire senate. You're

44:37

gonna have a better chance. With.

44:39

This independent group. Considering

44:42

now this out. You.

44:45

Can you can yell at me and

44:47

I'll stop? but I'll talk a little

44:49

bit about the legal stuff. The standard

44:52

in the bill is that. Ah,

44:55

an independent group. Must.

44:58

Be convinced by clear and

45:00

convincing evidence that the raptors

45:03

his say secret. Clear

45:05

and convincing evidence is the highest

45:07

civil standard there is. It's not

45:10

beyond a reasonable doubt, the criminals

45:12

setting, but it takes a hell

45:14

of a lot of evidence. Ah,

45:17

you know to be able to say

45:19

that south. You know if there are.

45:22

You. Know breakthroughs on. You.

45:24

Know propulsion nurse? You know you

45:26

don't. We don't also turn over

45:28

nuclear weapons. Animate Thors? Yeah, So.

45:31

Those should stay in all

45:33

his you know is classified

45:35

as possible. But you

45:38

know the fact it's you know, pictures

45:40

like the one you showed of Rex

45:42

Heflin took. Yeah, you know, Those

45:45

need to be released from. India

45:50

Is he a fee he bought? Salah

45:52

says I'll wave my privacy rights and

45:54

you can release. The End The A.

45:58

Then. it's released You

46:00

know, you don't give the military the

46:02

chance to to say no first and

46:05

this commission would have done that and

46:08

uh Just

46:10

by the fact that it was

46:12

a bill by my grounds You

46:15

know, uh a quality senator,

46:17

you know high up in the ranks

46:19

of the Republican side And

46:22

chuck schumer. I cannot remember

46:24

the last time The majority

46:27

leader or minority leader in either

46:29

house Actually sponsored

46:31

a bill. You don't see

46:33

nancy plosie's name on bills And

46:36

chuck schumer did this himself That

46:39

is That doesn't get

46:41

that means That biden didn't

46:43

have a problem with it because

46:46

the The

46:48

democratic leader of the senate would not put

46:51

a bill out that makes the president look

46:53

bad Of his own party.

46:55

I never ever thought of that. Yeah Yeah,

46:59

and and so and the

47:02

combination chuck schumer Uh,

47:04

mitch mcconnell when he started having some

47:06

of his episodes Uh,

47:08

you know where he couldn't talk for a while uh,

47:11

he started delegating work and

47:16

Uh, my grounds ended up with

47:18

the uap portfolio on this

47:21

at least this is my outside reading and

47:23

chuck schumer and my grounds are also Are

47:27

going to be the two point people for

47:29

both parties in the senate

47:31

on ai So

47:34

look at that you've got ufos

47:37

and ai I

47:39

mean, can you think of two future things

47:42

bigger than those two and the same two

47:44

guys on both sides of the aisle are

47:46

working together Yeah Now

47:49

they'll still argue about abortion and

47:52

gun control and You

47:54

know the border and all that and

47:56

and we can't wish everyone to

47:58

be queued by ah But But on this

48:00

issue, you know, if you step out

48:02

and you ain't gonna stay, they're jumping

48:05

off a bridge that they don't know where

48:07

the bottom is. It's

48:09

better to do it together. Yeah,

48:12

then separately. Yeah, that's

48:14

right. I was actually at the hearing

48:17

this last July and it was really

48:20

very I was so second to last

48:22

person in the door with my producer

48:24

and Chris Lito. So

48:28

we were all in there watching and

48:30

it was really amazing to

48:33

see what

48:35

is it AOC on

48:38

one side and Mac Gates on the other

48:40

side and them all just getting along and

48:42

discussing, you know, the topic and

48:44

having, you know, it was a

48:48

clear bipartisan, you

48:50

know, issue that they were

48:53

really looking and taking seriously and

48:55

working together. So that was

48:57

yeah, that was really very I

49:00

felt it was very historic. It

49:02

was and there

49:04

wouldn't be another subject rather than happen. I

49:08

don't think so. And you know,

49:10

there was like, I've said this before in the show, there was over

49:12

1000 people that showed up for those 30 seats.

49:15

And I wasn't there at 540am. I

49:18

would have never gotten in, you know, you thought

49:20

at 540 and you're the last two people in.

49:23

Yeah, but there were people that cut in front of us quite a few.

49:26

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Certain people,

49:28

George Knapp, Jeremy Corbell, you know, people like that. Yeah.

49:32

Yeah. Well,

49:35

George is a true journalist, but

49:37

yeah, they should they should wait

49:39

their turn. Yeah. But

49:43

except for Virginia Fox, a

49:45

Congresswoman from North Carolina, she

49:48

bashed, spent her five

49:50

minutes bashing the Biden administration over

49:52

the Chinese balloon incident. Besides

49:55

that, I

49:57

mean, it was amazingly bipartisan. Mm-hmm.

50:00

Amazingly. And you know,

50:03

you have to remember that's the commit the hunter

50:05

Biden committee. I mean, yep.

50:09

You know, that's what Biden crime family

50:11

committee yet Chuck Schumer, when he put

50:13

his bill together, uh, with

50:16

Mike rounds, the overseer

50:19

of that, the committee

50:22

that would review the documents to

50:24

see whether they should be released

50:26

the oversight by the house was

50:29

the over house oversight committee. So

50:32

the most contentious committee on

50:35

the other side was written into

50:37

the bill in UFOs, having

50:40

oversight authority. Cause if

50:42

Matt Gaetz complained that they didn't have

50:45

access to secrets, you

50:47

know, at that hearing, and,

50:49

uh, the reason they didn't

50:51

is because when they adopted the

50:53

original bill in 2021, uh, they

50:57

listed who the appropriate committees

50:59

were to receive classified information

51:02

and they're up to 12, but oversight isn't

51:04

on the 12th. So

51:06

there are already almost 200 members

51:10

of Congress out of the 535 that are

51:12

on these

51:15

committees. So you've got a core, you

51:17

got about 40% of Congress already.

51:20

That are, are they

51:23

made all show up for all the hearings

51:25

on this or the, the classified briefings, but

51:28

you're talking about a big group of people.

51:31

So it's not a question of, you

51:34

know, educating everyone. It'll take a year

51:36

and a half. They can, they

51:38

can spread out pretty quick and educate them.

51:42

Uh, and when you start

51:44

seeing briefings like that, you

51:46

notice closures coming. Right.

51:48

Um, yeah, I hope so. I know that,

51:51

uh, Lou Lou Elizondo

51:53

had said 2024 Is

51:56

the big year, whatever that means, Will

51:58

I, I've been communicating. With him,

52:00

but directly by with his wife. And.

52:02

I know that tough as soon as his

52:05

new book comes out he'll be are coming

52:07

on podcast skin and our job Good like

52:09

it. like to hear more what he asked

52:11

to say. I'm. So. I'm

52:14

gonna shift gears a little bit and just,

52:16

well, maybe or maybe not. Have you ever

52:18

had. Any other you know advance

52:20

any other you fo sightings in your life or

52:22

was that the was that the one and only

52:24

one. I've I've

52:27

had dozens and dozens.

52:29

Yes, Ah,

52:32

Unexplained. I'm

52:34

pretty much all I I've

52:36

done regressions with of on

52:38

Smith yeah and of only

52:41

pulls out limited information very

52:43

little. ah she teases me

52:45

that I'm a lawyer and

52:47

I don't follow direction very

52:49

well as and so that's

52:51

probably yeah. my block as

52:53

murder do I think with

52:55

them and done aspects. I've.

53:00

I've had. My

53:02

Us, you know the actual

53:05

sightings I've had a few

53:07

best frankly some of the

53:09

other paranormal behavior. You. Know

53:11

stands out to be more. Like.

53:13

Guy. Ah in the

53:16

last. Fifteen. Years?

53:18

Yeah, actually yeah, that

53:20

is. Twelve.

53:23

Or thirteen years I'd say. I

53:25

vibe is. I started getting into

53:28

this more. Ah,

53:30

I've had. A

53:32

couple of instances of missing

53:35

time where. Things.

53:37

On. I've

53:40

ended up in in

53:42

my hotel room in

53:44

various times. Twice is

53:46

for. To. Significant times

53:48

where something has appeared in

53:51

the room. That.

53:54

Sort. Of started between a i'm laying in

53:57

bed and is between me and the. The.

53:59

Air. where the TV is, not

54:01

from the TV, but where

54:04

like a bubble sort of would form.

54:08

And then I'd see visions. And

54:11

I had one when

54:14

I was at the International UFO Conference

54:16

in Arizona, where

54:19

all of a sudden I wake up at

54:22

about three o'clock and

54:27

this greenish light is starting to

54:29

form like thousands

54:32

of tiny lights that merge into

54:34

one and form

54:36

sort of an oblong

54:38

three-dimensional area that

54:40

was sort of like a plasma or something. And

54:43

then from that, I

54:46

actually saw images. First,

54:51

the one that stood out, I could have reached

54:53

out and touched it as I was

54:55

sitting up. I

55:00

saw this like three

55:02

foot silver metallic domino sort

55:04

of looking thing. And on the

55:06

top, in the base

55:09

relief, it had a classic UFO with a

55:12

line going down like a beam

55:15

or something. And the second

55:17

half of the domino had

55:19

a DNA strand in it.

55:23

But the DNA strand had hundreds of

55:27

DNA strands in it.

55:29

And out of

55:31

those strands popped like a

55:33

symbol. And I just

55:35

kept staring at that simple symbol. I've

55:40

got to remember this. I kept telling myself,

55:42

I got to remember this, got to remember

55:44

this. And then all of a sudden, the

55:47

symbol disappeared. And it went right out

55:49

of my head. I just

55:53

lost all knowledge. And so I'm

55:55

totally disturbed. And then the whole

55:57

thing tricks down to nothing and

55:59

leaves. Well, you

56:01

hear that a lot that something shrinks down to

56:03

nothing. Yeah. And disappears. Listen,

56:06

we're just about out of time here. So

56:09

and that was quite a

56:11

fantastic story to end

56:13

the show on. So where can people

56:15

find you and get ahold of

56:18

your or at least get your books? Well,

56:21

my books are available on Amazon for

56:23

sure. And starting to

56:25

be available in other places had

56:27

had a few problems in production.

56:31

But I have

56:33

a website JPL

56:36

UFO dot com. And

56:39

that's right. A lot of time.

56:41

I'm sorry to say we're out of time. I

56:43

will link your website in the

56:46

show notes and in the text below. Thank you

56:48

so much. It's been a real pleasure. Yeah,

56:50

I enjoyed it, Martin. All right. Take

56:52

care. All right, everyone. We'll

56:54

be back next week with Gio Turner.

56:57

She's in the UK and should be an interesting

56:59

show. Thank you. And remember to keep your eyes

57:01

to the sky. Bye.