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Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for October 13 2023, episode 150 and

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Unification everybody Welcome once again to podcasting 2.0

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This is where it all goes down. It is the official board meeting

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of podcasting 2.0 the future the president than now we're

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podcasting. And of course we are the only boardroom that meets on

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Friday the 13th I'm Adam curry here in the heart of the Texas

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Hill Country and in Alabama, the man who kills roosters, with his

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bare hands, say hello to my friend on the other end of the

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ladies and gentlemen, the only Mr. Dave Jones.

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Dave Jones: Spencer said The wait is Adam Curry: over. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Hey, Dave, how you

0:47

doing, brother? How you doing? Dave Jones: I'm good. I'm reading the mute button little

0:50

bit as partaking my beef milkshake.

0:52

Adam Curry: Oh, oh, are you? You have a quick quick turnaround

0:58

today. You still have a lot of work at the day job, I guess.

1:02

Right? Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. But I'm good. I'm good. Okay, I'm

1:06

hanging in there. I will be a much happier person next week,

1:08

though. Adam Curry: So Well, I actually I'm a happier person now because

1:12

I did my taxes. Wednesday. I'm a late file I pay in April, but I

1:18

file I'm a late filer. Dave Jones: I like how you like how you just classify yourself

1:22

as that I'm a I'm a late filing late filer. Just a heads up?

1:27

Yeah. Everybody at accounting firms hate you.

1:30

Adam Curry: But that's why I don't use an accounting firm. I

1:33

guess I do it myself. Dave Jones: Okay. You just hate yourself? No.

1:37

Adam Curry: Well, I don't know. And I have to say, Well, the

1:39

problem is I have to wait on other stuff. I have to wait on

1:42

other people. And you know, because other K ones that come

1:45

in from my wife and just all kinds of stuff. So they never no

1:49

one ever gets it on time. Which is why I understand why

1:52

accounting firms hate people who do that. But I'm a TurboTax guy.

1:56

I love it. I love sitting there and it gives that little

1:58

counter. It says you owe $5 million. Okay, hold on a second.

2:02

Let me see what can I deduct here? Then it goes. Good. It

2:06

goes down. Okay. Well, let me see. But there must be something

2:08

else. And then it pops up a little dialog. Hey, we can get

2:12

you more deductions. Yes, yes. Yes. Click Click. What can you

2:14

get me? There might veteran? Can I can I claim myself as a

2:17

parent? No, I guess not. Not today? Am I a victim of

2:20

hurricanes? Dave Jones: My favorite part of TurboTax is the thing at the

2:25

very end. That's like the audit protection scam. Oh, yeah. No,

2:29

I'm Adam Curry: all in on the audit protections. Dave Jones: It's like, do you be Be careful, you be careful, you

2:34

may get audited. So you probably want to buy our audit protection

2:37

service. Well, like, Adam Curry: let me break. Let me tell you. I have always

2:43

purchased the I think they might it was $40. Now it's $60 audit

2:47

protection scam. And the end of one year I got audited, which

2:51

was nine years ago. Um, do believe me? I was very happy

2:56

ahead. So what did they do for you? They give you a lawyer.

3:00

Dave Jones: I had to give you one. Yeah.

3:03

Adam Curry: So I had a full time lawyer. I could call them all

3:05

the time he he came out actually to meet with me and the and the

3:09

and the IRS agent. Oh, yeah. Dave Jones: I thought you're just saying he came out a little

3:16

odd relationship with a tax lawyer?

3:19

Adam Curry: I it's not, you know, it's I mean, I understand

3:22

the scary meter that says, Oh, you have a very high chance of

3:27

getting audited? Well, I have that regardless, because I am

3:31

self employed. I have k ones. I have a seat schedule. See?

3:36

Dave Jones: Oh, you're just begging for it. On paper, you're

3:40

just they have a target with your face on it. And the IRS.

3:42

All Adam Curry: right, well, every 10 years is when it's my turn.

3:45

And it was a that was 2015. And it really, really sucks. But I

3:50

mean, I'm just happy. I didn't have to pay in it. I've had 20

3:55

years ago, when the IRS showed up in my business with their

3:58

guns, literally with guns. We've been looking for you.

4:04

Dave Jones: We depend a lot of a lot of people don't know that.

4:07

If you're an American citizen. Yes, leave the country for some

4:11

amount of time, let's say yours. You can't you don't just stop

4:15

paying taxes. You're supposed to keep writing a check what No,

4:18

you don't they will find Adam Curry: you have to file you don't have to you don't have to

4:21

write a check. You have to file file. Yes. And my. And my

4:26

accountants had not filed even though they knew exactly what

4:29

they should have been doing. And this is when I had a lot of

4:31

money back in the day. And so then I come in after you know,

4:34

after not living in in the States for like 10 years and

4:37

they Hey, and I start showing up on payroll. Man, they put me

4:41

through the wringer. And that cost me $40,000 In lawyers fees.

4:46

Ouch. You know, accountants and lawyers. So I was very happy

4:50

with it with my $40 lawyer. I mean, I wouldn't say he was a an

4:56

attack dog by any means. But at least he could he I channeled

5:00

the communication between me and the IRS. So this is more like

5:03

Dave Jones: the court appointed lawyer that you get when you're

5:05

trying to you know, Adam Curry: step above that a little step above it, but yeah,

5:11

whatever. I have Dave Jones: many accountants in my life, it's somehow my family

5:16

and my day job and everything is just dominated by accountants

5:19

and accounting. And I will I will say that I predict that you

5:26

will not be in the next decade, you will not be audited again.

5:31

Oh, really? I just think they're they are they the IRS is so hard

5:37

up for people to work. I don't I think all of the all of the

5:42

audits are going to be all the in person audits and everything.

5:45

They're all going to be just, they're just going to be a

5:48

thing, a thing of the past mostly everything. They're going

5:51

to try to claim their get their money back through take, like

5:53

technical needs, you know, closing loopholes in regulations

5:59

and stuff. They're just they just known that people will not

6:01

cannot hire enough and I understand that. But they Adam Curry: they have literally said they're going after LLCs

6:06

partnerships. Dave Jones: That that is going to be Yeah, I think there's it's

6:10

all going to be automated. Where where you're gonna have if an

6:14

LLC is a member of another LLC, be a trigger.

6:17

Adam Curry: I see. Yeah. And that should be a trigger, quite

6:20

honestly. Dave Jones: Yeah. Because you're gonna have things like they're

6:23

going after stuff like the environmental easement, scams

6:28

and Adam Curry: yeah, in the end the paycheck protection program.

6:32

Yeah, if Dave Jones: you have an LLC that has more than more than 100

6:35

members, yeah, just stuff like that. Yeah. Yep.

6:40

Adam Curry: Um, I had I had some I had some Oh, wow. Moments this

6:45

past week. Some some big some big Oh, wow. Moments. Well, good

6:51

about Yeah, exactly. That I went Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. And it

6:57

had it started on Tuesday by I was 2000 miles over due for my

7:04

10,000 mile car thing. The first big service

7:09

Dave Jones: Adam curry, Adam Curry: which I financed actually, I find the answer

7:13

right into into my into my loan. But the car was very mad at me.

7:19

Yeah, it was like, shall we call for an appointment? I can call

7:23

for you right now. lights flashing on and off, you know,

7:26

dashboard lit up like 181 Yeah, all these TV. Oh, yeah. All

7:30

kinds of warnings. Oh, man. You probably your car's gonna spin

7:34

out of control. You're gonna die if you don't get this thing in.

7:37

Oh, yeah. So that means I had to go to Austin. And I also be I

7:41

went to my hairdresser because I had the same one in Austin. I

7:45

know we've been friends for 12 years I just love her and she

7:48

always has the latest Austin gossip for me which is usually

7:51

off the hook and great no agenda show material. So I had to you

7:56

know, I started off I'm listening to I'm listening to a

7:59

sermon from some pasture and then I'm like yeah, I'm getting

8:03

into I was listening to beautiful outlaw audio book I

8:06

just love that time alone in the car with this just nobody is can

8:11

distract me or anything the car almost drives itself you know

8:14

it'd be got to keep your hands on it's not it by the way. It's

8:16

not an electric vehicle. But all cars kind of have a co pilot

8:19

thing these days Dave Jones: my car my truck drives itself if you're going

8:22

downhill your Adam Curry: work. Yeah. Your cars the only your truck will be

8:28

the only thing left on the road after the Armageddon everything

8:30

else will just stop and that's actually hard part of the part

8:33

of my big oh wow moment.

8:36

Dave Jones: And I was roaches, Velveeta cheese and muttrah

8:38

those are the three things that will exist after the fact

8:40

guarantee and people Adam Curry: your truck will actually drive on Velveeta

8:43

cheese when it Dave Jones: is convertible. Yeah. Is

8:46

Adam Curry: it diesel? No. Oh, man, that's too bad. Because you

8:50

could melt cheese and it would and it would drive on that

8:53

Dave Jones: but it could it can't we can go with gas in a

8:55

pinch. You know? Adam Curry: gasifiers baby. They're the future

9:00

Dave Jones: from trailer trailer mounted would would be it's

9:03

called the gasifier? Adam Curry: Yeah. They use it in the during the Depression.

9:07

Dave Jones: It did which to the great embarrassment of my wife,

9:10

but it will work? Adam Curry: No, because she'll be on the back shoveling wood

9:13

into the gasifier as you're driving along. She'll have a

9:16

job. Baby, you

9:19

Dave Jones: remind me to tell you my misogyny story one day.

9:23

Okay. This is not for the show, not for the board meeting. Oh,

9:25

no, it's for the boy. So you can be for the board meeting. But I don't want to interrupt your flow though. Okay,

9:29

Adam Curry: well, so, and I get this message. Mio. And I'm like,

9:37

this thing that I saw the Smosh probably listen to that. And it

9:40

was an interview with Yanis Varoufakis. And Yanis Varoufakis

9:45

is actually a guy I kind of never liked. He was for a brief

9:48

time about five or six months he was the the finance minister for

9:53

Greece. And he not a job anybody wants. Well, this was in 2010 I

9:58

think when the banks essentially bankrupted Greece. And then all

10:04

of Northern Europe hated them. I mean, people were so mad at

10:07

Greece because you guys, you're all the fault of all our

10:10

financial problems and people going into Greek restaurants in

10:12

Amsterdam and not paying saying, Yeah, you owe me that. I mean,

10:15

it was horrible. It was horrible. And Yanis Varoufakis

10:19

is an economist, Professor of economy, you've probably seen

10:22

them bald head, you know, really kind of deep voice, motorcycle

10:26

kind of guy. Then and he's a devout socialist, he, I think he

10:31

calls himself a Marxist, but in the most traditional sense of

10:33

the word, whatever that means. Whatever that means.

10:37

Dave Jones: I love the love the, the degrees and the specificity

10:41

by which Marxist proclaim their Marxism. It's, oh, there's

10:44

always caveats is I'm a Marxist, but I'm not. I'm not that kind

10:48

of Marxist. I'm a, you know, I'm a fourpoint. Marxist or

10:51

whatever, you know, Adam Curry: he was actually like, I love Hegel. But, you

10:53

know, I'm a Marxist. And it's like, anyway, so, but, you know,

10:58

he's done a lot of he's written books. And he's, I always felt

11:01

he's kind of an elitist, douche. But he's written a new book

11:04

called techno feudalism. And, yeah, you know, you're having

11:10

the same response to vor icad. I couldn't get him to think about

11:14

it either. Well, Dave Jones: it's just the just the name is just so mean. You

11:19

already it's like you can already imagine Adam Curry: what do you when you when you hear the techno

11:23

feudalism? What what do you think the book is about?

11:27

Dave Jones: Ai? No, no. Okay. All right. Well, I'm wrong. I'm

11:33

willing to get you you said that he was an elitist douche, and

11:35

I'm making notes as you have. I have an elitist douche

11:39

checklist. Oh, yeah. And I'm making notes. I'm like, Finance

11:45

Minister of Greece. Adam Curry: Yes. Motorcycle deck, bald head check. Yeah,

11:52

Dave Jones: really low voice like Klaus Schwab. I mean, we're

11:56

hitting all cylinders right here. So go ahead. Adam Curry: So I'm going to play a little bit from one of Listen,

12:01

anyway, it was great. I was at the at the DIA to wait three

12:03

hours. So they have a cappuccino bar. So I sit at my laptop, I'm

12:07

doing all my email and listen to these things. And, and this is

12:11

just one example of what he says is techno feudalism. And it kind

12:16

of hit home for me about the stuff we're doing here at

12:21

podcasts index. And, and this, this band of thieves and robbers

12:26

that that are surrounded around, you know, this project, this

12:30

podcasting, 2.0, RSS, and podcast index, and apps and

12:37

wallets and all this stuff. So this is just one minute he

12:40

explains a version of techno feudalism. But what has happened

12:44

is, if you're Jeff Bezos, if you are the owner of Google, of

12:48

Apple, of if you're Elon Musk, then you own this new form of

12:53

cloud capital, which allows you to extract from the rest of

12:59

society from proletarians. But from everyone else, as well,

13:04

huge quantities of rents and surpluses in a manner that

13:09

reconstitute is a form of feudalism. The difference is

13:12

that instead of the original feudalism, which is a system

13:17

based on private ownership of land, which produces rent, now,

13:22

it's private ownership of the clouds of cloud capital, because

13:25

the cloud is capital, right? It's not some cloud up in the

13:27

sky in the sky, which yields again, a form of rent, every

13:31

time you buy something from amazon.com 40% of what you pay,

13:35

doesn't go to the capitalist who is selling you that stuff. It

13:38

goes to Jeff Bezos, that's a cloud rent and he is a new form

13:42

of feudal lord. So when I listen to this, I immediately thought

13:46

about Apple via we call it the apple tax, but it's really Apple

13:51

saying, Hey, you want to be on our platform, we forced you into

13:54

apps. Now, if you want to make any money, that's fine, you can

13:58

make money, but you got to pay us 30%, which is pretty high

14:02

rent. Yeah, Spotify tried to do this, but they didn't really own

14:07

their capital. The record companies own their capital of

14:09

the record. Companies don't care about what they're doing with

14:13

podcasting. In fact, it was their own desperate attempt to

14:16

make some money outside of the music business by taking this

14:20

free content. But make no mistake, they're charging for

14:23

your free content. If someone pays $5 a month, or I don't

14:27

think it's $5 anymore, it's probably seven pays for via

14:30

Yeah, you're paying for your music. And I'm just looking at

14:34

musicians. Now. They're, they're in essence taking money, whether

14:37

someone listens to your show or not to your music or not, to

14:40

your show or not. This is in a way what Apple had become,

14:45

although they never charge money for it, but hey, you want a

14:48

subscription? Yeah, we got subscription services for you.

14:51

30% We're gonna take that right off the top of all of these, and

14:58

it's not just money. Bye, guys. Go, they have tremendous what

15:03

Varoufakis here would call cloud capital, because you actually

15:07

feed back your data to them in many different ways. Now it's

15:12

like time, talent and treasure, thank you very much. Thank you

15:14

for all your data, we're gonna suck that all up. And they turn

15:17

around and sell you sell, sell, you know, your own body, your

15:22

own behaviors to other people. And, you know, there's reasons

15:26

why this, you know, that there's no Twitter in the EU. You know,

15:32

there's no Google of the EU, there's only these massive

15:36

companies, which, for all kinds of understandable reasons have

15:39

become, in a way or overlords and control us to the degree

15:43

now, that if you look at the digital services agreement, in

15:49

the EU, if you look at the Online Safety Act in the UK, if

15:56

you look at what Canada is doing with their CRTC, I think it is

16:00

beyond their Yeah, you must register. This is all because of

16:03

these platforms. And these platforms have so much power

16:07

they bring in so much. Why Why does the EU Sue Google and Apple

16:11

and want to sue the Twitter ex all the time, because they have

16:15

no way of extracting any money from them? They don't get any

16:18

tax revenue suits. Yeah, they don't get any tax revenue.

16:22

That's all, you know, fussed away in all kinds of different

16:25

manners. And as I'm listening to this, I'm saying like, this is

16:30

exactly why podcasting is still what it is today. And has not

16:36

been sucked up into some. And then Google's still trying it.

16:40

They are once again trying because yeah, you can, I guess

16:45

add your RSS feed into into Google mute YouTube music. And

16:50

and in a way, you know, I guess it's the it's a way to

16:54

distribute your podcast, but they are, they won't let you

16:57

have ads. They'll extract all value from your, from your

17:02

community. The in player stats, you know, that. I mean, once

17:07

you're in the app, they even know if you're listening or

17:10

watching something laying down walking standing up in the car.

17:14

I mean, they know all this stuff. Yeah. So they are taking

17:17

all of all the capital. And I realized that what we've created

17:22

with podcast index. And with value for value, it's a critical

17:28

piece, a crit, this is where Varoufakis, as a socialist

17:32

doesn't quite get it. We have a collective cloud. Him and the

17:37

members of the cloud, the participants of our cloud, let's

17:41

just call that podcast index. They we are distributing value

17:48

all throughout this system in and out in the form of the

17:53

easiest form is Satoshis. And the more I look at this model,

17:59

the more I see what we are doing here is just an easy way.

18:04

Because it's podcasting and it has a certain cachet, it has an

18:08

independent nature. There. Thank Thank God, we have hundreds if

18:13

not worldwide, 1000s of independent hosting companies.

18:18

There's ways to host yourself, this is the only the only future

18:26

for any type of media distribution. The only way

18:31

forward, I don't care what would noster says and this and that.

18:35

And that's it's a great idea, but they can't reinvent 20

18:40

years. 24 years really, of development and infrastructure,

18:45

which is solid, it's just solid throughout all the pipes. It's

18:48

there. Dave Jones: Yeah, it's established. It's an it's

18:52

entrenched, Adam Curry: it's completely entrenched. It's an it's

18:55

completely I mean, even if you look now. And so this is for a

19:00

number of things, it's for unfettered distribution, let's

19:03

just you can call it free speech, if you want but how

19:05

about unfettered distribution, I don't even believe in censorship

19:10

resistant as a as a term. I mean, this is one to one, one to

19:15

many. And the it's it's it's unfettered, there's, there's no

19:20

interference, there's no model that these big institutions or

19:24

governments can come up with to disrupt the RSS distribution at

19:30

all. If you look now at the DSA dashboard.

19:37

Dave Jones: What is that by the way? Can you just

19:39

Adam Curry: Yes, so did the Digital Services Act is let me

19:44

just bring it up here. The Digital Services Act is the

19:50

regulation in Europe that I'm gonna bring it up where I have

19:56

this man here, so Dave Jones: this is great. I just saw Just search for Digital

20:01

Services Act, get the first link in the in the in the Google

20:05

result. And it takes me to the Digital Services Act package

20:10

page. And it has a promo video on here. And in the promo video

20:15

the thumbnail says, protecting fundamental rights and freedom

20:19

of expression. This is such a classic government like

20:25

reversal, we're restricting your rights and freedom of expression

20:30

by to protecting your rights and freedoms Adam Curry: to protect your freedom. Yes, exactly. Protect

20:35

your freedom. So the Digital Services Act is this set of

20:39

regulations. It boils down to this hate speech is not allowed.

20:44

Violence is not allowed. riling somebody up for violence is not

20:49

allowed. Disinformation is not allowed. And they're now going

20:54

after all the platforms. The top ones are tick tock Pinterest,

20:57

Amazon, Facebook, Google, then ex.

21:02

Dave Jones: Pinterest is the one that Pinterest uses me porn

21:05

Adam Curry: porn. Pinterest is mainly porn. And so they really

21:08

Oh yeah, they have these categories violence, intellectual property infringement, pornography or

21:12

sexualized content as a difference. If so, you know,

21:15

what is pornography? I don't know. But when I see it all No.

21:18

Yeah. Okay. And, and so they are going after the platforms,

21:24

requiring the platforms to delete video and I can go into

21:29

all the keywords and categories, I can go in here for a second. I

21:32

can give you an example. Animal Welfare data protection and

21:36

privacy violations, ie legal or harmful speech. Intellectual

21:41

Property infringement, negative effects on civic discourse or

21:45

election, non consensual behavior, pornography or

21:48

sexualized content protection of minors, risk for public security

21:53

scams and or fraud, self harm, scope of platform service,

21:58

unsafe and illegal products. That's where Amazon comes in,

22:02

and violence. So these are all the top categories that are

22:07

being tracked by this digital services. The DSM Digital

22:13

Service Act transparency database. So in the eu is eu

22:18

only how many takedowns? Because that's what they're tracking has

22:24

statements of reasons for takedown per hour do you think

22:28

are occurring right now on across platforms? In the

22:32

European Union? per hour per hour?

22:37

Dave Jones: Let me say only Okay, so you get supposedly

22:41

Facebook has banned, let's just say a billion users. Unless

22:47

Adam Curry: I'll tell you that tick tock is at the top of the

22:50

list, actually, with takedowns. Interestingly enough,

22:53

Dave Jones: tick tock, yeah, well, that may, you know, that

22:56

kind of makes some sense. How many users did tick tock dab? Do

22:59

we know how many monthly and as there's no

23:01

Adam Curry: idea that mean, but just what do you think would be

23:03

a reasonable number to be to be flagging or taking down per

23:07

hour? In the EU? Dave Jones: Just see is only is only the EU? I would I would it

23:12

would probably have to be like 10,000 10,000

23:21

Adam Curry: per hour? Currently 147,202 takedowns per hour?

23:30

Dave Jones: That doesn't even seem possible. Like what could

23:33

this possibly be? Adam Curry: At all those things I just mentioned, basically,

23:37

stuff the government doesn't like. So usually, you said that

23:41

your yourself best when you have a big red button. It's hard not

23:45

to press it. Dave Jones: Yeah. When you bid when you build a thing, like

23:49

when I think we we did the statics we did this thought

23:52

experiment when when Gigi was on the show, and I was trying to

23:55

make a point. You know, the thought experiment goes like

23:58

this, you know, you build a system. They give let's let's

24:04

say the government builds a system where every home in the

24:08

country has a lock on as a lock on the door. And this lock is

24:14

remotely controllable by a big red button in a government

24:20

office somewhere. And they said well, this is only this is only

24:24

in case of emergencies, that we're going to use this button

24:27

and it's going to lock everybody inside their homes and you build

24:32

it and forevermore you're just you're just staring at that

24:36

button. You're like man, you know it the definition of

24:42

emergency starts to creep lower and lower and lower when you

24:47

have the ability to do something like this. Just the point is

24:52

that the point of the thought experiment is just to say that

24:55

when you if you allow the capability to be built You're

25:00

allowed you are you are forcing its usage.

25:03

Adam Curry: I have the here's the full list of things that are

25:07

being taken down for the following reasons. This is over

25:12

the last 90 days. Okay, some of them are repeats of what I just

25:15

said. Animal hard adult sexual material age specific

25:19

restrictions concerning minors age specific restrictions.

25:22

biometric data breach Child Child Sexual Abuse material

25:26

content promoting eating disorders, coordinating harm,

25:30

copyright infringement, dangerous toys data

25:33

falsification, defamation, design, infringement

25:36

discrimination, disinformation, foreign information manipulation

25:40

and interference, gender based violence, geographic indication

25:44

infringements, geographical requirements, goods and services

25:49

not permitted to be offered on the platform, grooming sexual

25:52

enticement of minors hate speech, human exploitation,

25:55

human trafficking, ie legal organizations, image based

25:59

sexual abuse, including content depicting minors, impersonating

26:03

or account hijacking. In authentic accounts in authentic

26:07

listings in authentic user reviews, incitement to violence

26:11

and or hatred, insufficient information on traders, language

26:15

requirements, misinformation, missing persons ground for data,

26:20

non consensual image sharing non consensual items containing deep

26:24

fake or similar technology using a third party feature, nudity,

26:28

online bullying or intimidating patent infringement fishing

26:32

pyramid schemes, regulated goods and services right to be

26:35

forgotten. Risk for environment risk for environmental damage. I

26:39

mean, this. So any, we have probably, in fact, had five and

26:44

fractions just in the 25 minutes we've been talking.

26:48

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. before the show starts. Yeah.

26:51

Adam Curry: So I mean, this is all fine. But there's no way for

26:56

anyone to regulate this in the RSS based system, that doesn't

27:00

mean that we need to be a free for all for everything. But this

27:04

is never going to they want they the collective de governments.

27:09

And in the US, we still have this constitution, very

27:12

annoying, annoying, First Amendment, very annoying thing.

27:16

But even that has, you know, we've got section 2:30am, this,

27:20

the regulation is creeping in. You've seen you've seen the

27:25

university studies of podcasting how harmful it is, and we this

27:29

has to stop and we have to get rid of this. Right now. The only

27:34

weakness in podcasting is advertising. That's the only

27:39

weakness. That's the only place they can get you at this point.

27:43

They cannot quote unquote, get you any other way. And what

27:48

we've built here, I believe is a model for to bring back weblogs,

27:55

with code, you can turn it into a microblogging service. I mean,

27:59

that's easy. Just it's just how you present it in an app. I

28:02

mean, that's how Twitter started, it was RSS feeds. This

28:06

is the model for video distribution, the model for

28:10

books, the model for thoughts, the model for everything that

28:14

you want to distribute. And we have built this model and are

28:18

showing that it is completed, they have not been able to

28:22

penetrate it even with a billion dollars.

28:28

Dave Jones: I'm trying to find out so have a have a question

28:34

here. Same as a reason issued fall primarily in these

28:37

categories. Okay, that was interesting as I'm looking at

28:43

what you're what you showing me about the DSA under most active

28:48

platforms, yeah. Tik Tok, Pinterest, Amazon, Facebook,

28:51

Google, Google Maps, most use categories. The number one is

28:57

scope of platform service. So scope of platform service. Am I

29:04

too, am I right? And cuz it's a weird, it's a weird phrase. So

29:10

that sounds like violations of the platform's Terms of Service.

29:15

Sure. Yeah. Is that is the D Is that what that is? I think so.

29:18

Adam Curry: Yeah, I think so. Which I'm sure will be all kinds

29:21

of, you know, subcategories of impersonating intimidating

29:25

etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. They might just not they just

29:27

report that under this other category.

29:30

Dave Jones: Yes. Okay. So this says statements of reason issued

29:32

fall issued fall primarily in these three kind of in these

29:35

categories, scope of platform service, three main statements

29:38

covering age specific restrictions, good services not

29:41

permitted to be offered on the platform, nudity, etc. Okay, so

29:44

that yes, so this scope of platform service category, of

29:49

which there were yesterday alone, there were 2,047,247

29:59

record lists for takedown, based on based on scope of platform

30:05

service only. Yeah. Adam Curry: And the platforms are doing that because they're

30:09

being threatened by governments, hey, you better take that down

30:12

or abuse me. We know this because this court this is right

30:15

now went from the Fifth Circuit to the Supreme Court is back,

30:18

and it'll take years. But what the the Trump and Biden

30:23

administration's were doing, and without I mean, FBI, CDC,

30:28

Department of Health and Human Services and Department, the

30:31

Homeland Security Department, Department of Homeland Security,

30:35

they were all threatening social media companies to take things

30:39

down. Then if you don't, you're killing people, you'll be held

30:44

accountable. We have ways to get to you all the end, these are in

30:48

emails, this is all you will not hear any reporting on this.

30:51

Dave Jones: Well, the way and the way they did it, and this came out, you know, Twitter, follow the Twitter file. Yeah,

30:56

the Twitter files. If it's, you know, a lot of Twitter files

30:59

were boring. But if there's one takeaway from in one thing that

31:05

I think one great service that I think it did was it showed how

31:09

this it showed what the method was. And the method is exactly

31:13

this is you report a something to the platform. And what you

31:19

say is, we think that these posts or these users are

31:23

violating your community guidelines. Yes. Yes. Your Terms

31:27

of Service? You don't tell them to do you say with when you say

31:31

here are a bunch of here's a bunch of content that is

31:34

violating your platform's terms. And is that it once you have a

31:40

government that tells you that it creates this nice, this this

31:45

nice separation of concerns, where where the government can

31:51

say, hey, look, we're just reporting your own violations of

31:54

your own terms. We're not saying to take it down, right? We're

31:57

just saying, you know, and then the but then the platform is

32:00

like, Yeah, but it's the government telling me to take it

32:04

down. And they're, you know, there's a lot of stuff going on

32:07

as section 230. And if I don't take this down like I did, it

32:10

creates this very nice plausible deniability of and that's

32:14

exactly the way this works. It does not surprise me at all that

32:18

statements, scope of platform service is the number one

32:22

category. And that's the way it's probably always going to be

32:24

probably Adam Curry: probably, yeah. So this is a long way of saying

32:30

podcasting as a distribution mechanism. You know, we all know

32:34

what we think a podcast is, but the actual method of

32:37

distribution. It's a misnomer. And that's too bad. But we're

32:41

just stuck with it. But you the only way forward for humanity

32:46

literally for humanity is RSS based distribution. And I'll

32:51

take it one step further, we probably have to all focus on

32:55

browser based services, progressive web apps, pure

33:00

browser based because they're common for all apps, all of

33:03

them, all apps are going to be scrutinized, because the

33:07

platform is now Apple. And Apple has too much to lose. With all

33:14

these governments and all this crap, they mean, they can say,

33:16

oh, no, no iPhones in Europe than okay, that's fine. As China

33:19

said it, no, no iPhones to be sold in China, unless you do X,

33:23

Y, or Z, or unless you remove this from your search or don't

33:27

allow that app to show up the web is that it truly the only

33:32

frontier we have left. Now the beauty is we have the index

33:37

which can be filled to the brim with any any type of feed we

33:41

want with the medium tag genius genius. Dave Jones, Alex gates

33:46

genius. The this the the saving grace is pod ping, we need to

33:54

build that out. And the end, the end the way it works so that

34:00

we're not just good Samaritans is the value for value peace.

34:05

And that will only work with with consumers of content, who

34:09

are who should also be producers of content, if you look at the

34:12

way value for value works, to feed back into the system. And

34:16

those that have audiences that don't feed back into the system

34:19

will probably eventually go away. So this whole idea that

34:23

was started with the success of cereal, and then the big money

34:28

that was dangled in front of us from Spotify, and other big, big

34:33

technology companies mainly it's all gone. It's all gone away,

34:38

and maybe that'll come back with with when when interest rates go

34:42

back down to zero inevitably they will it may be 10 years, it

34:46

may be 10 months, maybe 10 minutes, I don't know. Literally

34:50

could happen. This is if you're a creator, it's not you're not

34:57

it's not a business model being a creator you meant you're doing

35:00

A podcast for some reason, the entertainment, all of that.

35:04

Yeah, that's right. You need to be on the platforms, you need to

35:07

play by the platform rules, you can probably get platform money.

35:11

But the amount of people who are ever going to get to that level

35:14

is less than 1%. Dave Jones: I was listening to show prep on the way in, you

35:20

know, yeah, me too. But and his weekly review. And I think James

35:26

had a very good way of putting this statement was in discussing

35:32

YouTube. He's he said, the way that they the way that YouTube

35:37

works is, if you make enough money, they'll let you keep some

35:41

of it. I thought that was a great way to describe it. He's

35:44

exactly right. So if you make enough money, they'll make it

35:47

they'll let you keep a little bit of Adam Curry: Well, I'm glad you I'm glad you heard that that

35:50

episode, because there was a lot of to do about this app that is

35:53

using free content and charging $49 for it to put you to sleep

35:58

at night. And I'm like, I didn't hear that part I didn't hear you

36:01

might have it was on it was a pod news story earlier in the

36:04

week, some I forget what it's called. But you know, the taking

36:07

content that is out there for free, and charging people $49

36:11

For an app I'm like, so that's what Google does. That's what

36:15

Spotify does. The like, you know, distribution is

36:21

distribution. Dave Jones: They throw ads in it.

36:25

Adam Curry: I get ads all the time and podcasts that that are

36:28

on, like Joe Rogan, I pay for a subscription, I still get ads.

36:33

But But the bottom line is what we're doing here is not it's

36:36

never going to be for big money. And there might be some

36:39

exceptions. But in general, it's going to value for value

36:42

proposition keeps everybody keeps the engine running. And I

36:47

October 26, it'll be our 16th anniversary of no agenda. We are

36:52

not rich by any stretch of the imagination. We and it took us

36:57

five years of early five years with barely. Meanwhile, we

37:02

started just as the iPhone one came out. And then it took a

37:06

long time for that to really progress. It takes a long time,

37:13

and a lot of dedication and an outstanding product to create a

37:19

value flow that you can live on. It'd be and I think I would say

37:25

two years, you have to do your show regularly for two years

37:29

before you can really build up an audience that will sustain

37:31

you but it is possible. Everybody wants the the old way

37:36

of doing things. And the old way of doing things is it's not

37:40

going to be it's not going to be fun. It's going to be

37:43

restrictive. You're going to be very spun up and worried all the

37:47

time, if not about A D platforming a D monetization,

37:52

but the worst part is D algo. ideation. That's where the true

37:58

evil lives is the algos and the algo makes people on YouTube

38:02

work. It's like a hamster wheel. Run hamster run otherwise the

38:07

water doesn't doesn't dribble in you don't get your little piece

38:10

of the money. And long way around of saying we are doing

38:15

something that is I think is bigger than podcasting. It's no

38:19

you already see I know Stephen B's thinking about it. How do we

38:22

do value for value for blogs. The first thing is the model we

38:26

have can be replicated forget the per minute streaming

38:30

obviously that's not really going to work with you know, you

38:33

have to send me 100 sites because I've read your blog or I

38:35

scroll down or whatever. But I will say the browser is the only

38:41

place and even that I mean I think you can you can you can

38:45

load a different browser on an iPhone, but it will never be

38:49

your default browser right that's always gonna go to Safari

38:53

as of as of now Yeah, as of now as of now you can still load a

38:57

different browser I think PW A's are the only way to go and you

39:02

probably know you're probably gonna have to go to a different

39:05

type of mobile device in the future as well. Just because

39:09

they're closing it in and it's all for your protection to

39:14

protect your freedoms to protect everybody else's feelings. And

39:18

you know and and the people who thought oh, this is so great. We

39:23

can get rid of these a holes these these douchebags these

39:26

scumbags these white nationalists these racist these

39:29

transphobes Guess what? It's going to be used on you to

39:34

Dave Jones: always, it always is that it's just if you don't

39:38

think it will, it's just it's just an ignorance of history.

39:42

Like, like, like, like, like I said, when you build when you

39:46

build it, it's there. And it compels it's compels its own

39:50

use. You don't build something just for the other guy. It when

39:57

you build it, it's it's going to be used again. Is everybody

40:01

because because it's it's, it's more than human nature. It's a

40:05

law of the of reality that when you have a thing in front of

40:10

you, you find reasons to use the thing. You can't help it.

40:16

Adam Curry: That's your big red button theory. Yes, yeah,

40:19

Dave Jones: you can't help it. And so if you create a math a, a

40:25

master, I mean, I'm just gonna call it what is its censorship.

40:29

And when you create a master censorship list, you're gonna

40:33

earn a censorship regime. That thing is going to be used for

40:38

everybody. And Adam Curry: stop right there. Okay, exactly what happened with

40:44

Mastodon, the fediverse. Great idea. borderless lockless. I am

40:50

on every block list by default me. It's nice not just no

40:54

agenda. No, no, it's me. Oh, curries involved that block

40:58

podcast index dot social is on block list because Adam curry is

41:02

involved with this. He's from no agenda block.

41:05

Dave Jones: Well, we're, we're on if you federate, there's no,

41:10

there's there's no second tier list where if you federate with

41:13

somebody on the block list, you're on the block list?

41:17

Adam Curry: Yeah, exactly. Dave Jones: That's the way this stuff works. So, you know, one

41:23

thing that bothers me a little bit about, about this whole

41:28

thing is I'm wondering, you know, I want to part of me

41:31

thought that we were sort of finished with this endeavor of,

41:38

we talked a little bit about it last week, where we thought we

41:42

were finished with the whole, let's make a full directory that

41:48

doesn't have you know, that the only thing this take that gets

41:53

takedowns is, you know, for legal reasons, local legal. And

42:02

I'm, you know, I'm now less confident in that, because the

42:05

platforms are being targeted directly. Now. Me we, it's right

42:11

now it's rumble. They're going, they're going after rumble. And

42:14

then it's soon soon, but mark my words, soon it will be substack.

42:20

Then after yet, Oh, totally. The day is substack, based out of

42:25

Australia. Something tells me that

42:30

Adam Curry: maybe could be Dave Jones: okay. And I think maybe one of the founders is

42:34

there. I'm not real sure. Anyway, neither here nor there.

42:37

But they will go after substack. Because substack has way too

42:41

much on like Seymour Hersh, people like that these people

42:45

have, they have got to be dealt with. They're too dangerous to

42:51

let them out there and saying the things that they're saying.

42:54

So and so that bothers me a little bit, because I'm like,

42:58

Well, we're based Adam Curry: in San Francisco. San Francisco. Okay.

43:04

Dave Jones: Part of me is thinking. We I think I think I

43:08

described it last week as we need to focus on

43:11

decentralization. Adam Curry: Well, okay, so, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm gonna go

43:16

ahead, go ahead. Dave Jones: It kind of came back up during the week this week,

43:23

because we're trying to solve the issue of podcasts getting

43:32

sort of de prioritized in the index. for financial reasons, we

43:37

cannot pull 5 million feeds every 15 minutes. It's just not,

43:43

it's not going to happen. So one of the biggest things that I've

43:48

had to do since day one of the index is dessert. Every time it

43:56

was every step of the build out of the index for the last three

43:59

years, it has been in my mind with each step to make sure

44:06

because we have a limited budget, make sure that we are

44:10

doing everything as efficiently as possible. That means we can't

44:17

fully parallelize because that costs a lot of money. That's we

44:20

can't scale out. We have to use time as our biggest factor. The

44:29

way that has played out and react in in sort of the reality

44:32

of what the index does under the covers, is, if if a podcast goes

44:39

for six months with no new episodes, it gets de

44:45

prioritized. So it's the index stops polling it very often. It

44:53

goes into what I what I usually call this lazy polar, is

44:58

basically it gives it we'll get around to it whenever it gets

45:01

around to it. Eventually, it'll get polled, but not always. So

45:07

this obviously has a downside. I mean, the The downside is, you

45:11

know, sometimes podcasts go on hiatus, which is what happened

45:14

to this, CNN, Israel, ISRAEL PALESTINE con, you know, thing

45:21

it lay, I believe it like went away. And then it came back when

45:24

the when the Hamas thing happened in there. That's,

45:29

that's not ideal. We we know we need to be better than that. So

45:35

the question so then this brought up a strategy that we're

45:40

throwing that we're throwing around Christopher ice is doing

45:42

some brainstorming on this, which is helpful. He's, you

45:47

know, we're trying to decide how can we distribute the load? So

45:51

you could run your own Adam Curry: aggravator,

45:58

Dave Jones: right, yeah, your own polling agent, and grab a

46:03

copy of all the feeds that have not been pulled in a certain

46:06

period of time, like, the feeds that seem to have been de

46:10

prioritized. And then you can, you can aggregate some of them,

46:15

you can be compulsive of them. If you find a new, if you find a

46:18

new episode, you can then ping us, let us know that the so then

46:22

we'll reindex it, and bring it back, you know, sort of

46:25

resurrected from the from its hypersleep. And this is great.

46:32

But then, um, you know that then this leads me sort of further

46:35

down this mental path of saying, Well, okay, if you if we're

46:39

going this direction. Yes, that's right, Eric push into

46:44

popping, if we're going this direction, then why don't we

46:50

keep going this direction, and distribute load, not necessarily

46:56

distribute load, but distribute the index. Now, this is a much

47:01

bigger issue. I mean, like, this is not, this is a, this is a

47:05

much more complicated thing. But But I want to think about this.

47:09

I mean, we're doing this same thought process. And we're doing

47:13

this same discovery with IPFS. And you built out some some

47:19

gateways, and we're trying to, we're trying to trying to start,

47:23

we're going down this path of distributing this thing to where

47:28

there are not single points of failure. Yes, or single points

47:31

of takedown. If you want to say that, yes. And I think we need

47:35

to fully explore that. And the reason I'm saying all this is

47:40

because I'm thinking about it daily, and coming up with some

47:44

ideas, I've already got a few, you know, and but I want other

47:48

people to think about this as well. And it has to be even if

47:55

it's as simple as just, you know, what the the sort of the

47:59

technique we've always relied upon is okay, we're going to

48:02

make the down the database downloadable. If something

48:06

happens to to us, and we're forced by some government entity

48:11

to take down something that everybody did you know, that

48:14

there's massive disagreement about whether it's, it should

48:17

have been taken down? Adam Curry: Well, the categories are well known. They're right

48:21

there, but I would say, probably 10% of the index and violation

48:26

today, right now, hands down, including no agenda.

48:30

Dave Jones: Oh, you own the EU terms? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same

48:33

with the UK Adam Curry: terms. I'm not sure eventually with the Canadian

48:36

terms. Yeah. So I'm, so you and I are thinking exactly like, and

48:42

I know. That's a that's a huge undertaking. It is. And I think

48:49

that's something we need to work on long term, but I'm seeing

48:52

others. So I don't like saying this. But I know I can. I know

48:56

that they're gonna go after hosting companies. I know,

48:59

they're gonna start saying, Okay, we're sick and tired of

49:02

this. This is showing up. They're gonna go to Apple for

49:05

the apps. Take down that up. That's literally what Canada is

49:10

going to do. But Apple, you have podcasts, okay. So you have to

49:14

register and then that means that we're going to tell you,

49:17

you have to take this this podcast out of your app. And

49:21

it's only a hop skip and a jump from there before they go. Okay.

49:27

Buzzsprout Okay, blueberry. Okay, Lipson, you know,

49:32

eventually as a business, you're gonna you're gonna buckle you're

49:35

gonna have to choose and I'm not blaming anybody for doing that.

49:38

Dave Jones: No, they don't. They don't have a choice. I mean, they don't they're, they're victims of this. Yes,

49:43

Adam Curry: yes. But I want to be out in front of it. And so

49:46

really, it's we need to just going to come down to produce

49:54

things like IPFS things like Tor. We have to start baking

49:58

that in now. All Dave Jones: right about PW A's Yeah, the PW A's. I think, as

50:05

I'm just gonna lay my cards on the table I've always been. I've

50:10

always been skeptical of PW A's. Because I've always felt like

50:15

the platforms, the mobile platforms, iOS and Android would

50:19

kneecap them. Adam Curry: They still, they still mind.

50:23

Dave Jones: They might, they might, but I'm, I'm thinking,

50:26

but I'm thinking this is probably right. I mean, you

50:30

know, the PW A's is the way, it's the way you get around. All

50:35

of this really is fun. I mean, because it's funny because the

50:38

web, the web is where we started in the web is what we're going

50:42

back to. Adam Curry: It's all it's all that is for the people, because

50:45

the only thing and it'll take a while because there's just like

50:50

there's no not enough, not enough IRS agents to do audits

50:54

everywhere. There's just not going to be enough EU police to

50:58

go after everything they're gonna go out. It's easy for

51:01

them. It's like, hey, look, we can do this. We can, you know,

51:05

it's easier and more fun to go after Apple or Instagram, or

51:10

YouTube or Tik Tok? Because we can also find them. We get lots

51:13

of money from that. You're not gonna get a lot of money at

51:16

Todd. Dave Jones: Yes, right. Yeah.

51:18

Adam Curry: I mean, again, no disrespect anywhere. But yeah.

51:24

And, and by the grace of God, we have lightning, the Lightning

51:30

Network, that we have a value for value system that enables us

51:36

to spread value. It's not a lot now. But what are we even doing

51:40

this really three years seriously. I mean, the whole

51:43

Lightning Network is only a couple of years old. This is

51:46

built, and all the naysayers and all the detractors and all the

51:49

anti crypto people. And I mean, it's it just slowly keeps

51:53

building is building and building and building. And maybe

51:56

we're only doing this for 3% of humanity. But that 3% will be

52:01

okay. And this is not just for developers, and Adam and Dave.

52:08

Now this is for podcasters. This is for podcast, people who enjoy

52:12

podcasts, who like their the podcasts they listen to who want

52:17

to keep hearing that who need to support that. And what that

52:20

means you have to run some kind of service at home on a

52:24

computer, people will do it. But you know, it's going to be for a

52:29

small percentage and don't expect, you know, podcasting to

52:34

be a $2 billion industry. Not that it ever has been in my

52:37

mind. But it's it's it's a human thing. Like what's happening

52:41

right now, in the Middle East. There's a lot that is not

52:46

getting out. There's I mean, do you want to talk to this information? I'd say governments are doing more than the people

52:50

right now. Dave Jones: By a by a factor of of something by a huge factor.

52:57

Yeah, for sure. And I Adam Curry: mean, I really just want to go back to wow, I wish I

53:02

could find a couple of blogs that are updating and I can, you

53:05

know, I got I got feed readers, none of them really function the

53:08

way they except for the freedom controller. None that really

53:13

function the way that's that's handy, you know, and there's

53:16

another thing we need to do. And it's this all exists. If that's,

53:20

you know, we're going to have to move to the content being

53:23

published in structured data, so not just your feet. This is

53:27

like, I just have experience with this, the fact that I

53:29

publish all my show notes and all information and OPML has

53:33

been an incredible rich experience. Because time and

53:37

again, developers come along and say, Oh, look at this structured

53:41

data, I can read that. I can do something cool with that.

53:46

Dave Jones: There's no need for LLM or anything like that. It's

53:48

all right there. Yes, me Adam Curry: and why wouldn't I have my own algo that does my

53:54

own shuffling of content based upon my rules? I should I should

54:00

and that's really the main thing. That's what social

54:03

networks I've right now. I despise no agenda social. I

54:08

gotta say it I started this thing. I love that I love that

54:12

Aaron or took over because a tremendous amount of work. But

54:16

now it's like I I just want to subscribe to People and read

54:21

what they have to say and I want to be I don't want to get into

54:23

arguments. I don't want I don't want to have comments back and

54:28

forth in the feed. It's all wrong. It's all it makes me

54:31

unhappy. Dave Jones: So I think this is a you know, this, this is

54:37

interesting. I've got a clip from Paul throt this clip number

54:42

one, I think so. I think it's worth playing this real quick

54:47

just just to see okay, so the issue here is the what we've all

54:54

seen we all know about this this in certification of the internet

55:00

Unknown: I think, Adam Curry: sorry, I thought that was

55:02

Dave Jones: No, no, yeah, no hit it hit. Unknown: I think like I create content, we all create content,

55:07

right? This is one thing. So not surprisingly, I see the value in

55:11

content. And I see the value in paying for good content. I try

55:14

to support content sources that I think are high quality.

55:18

There's a podcast that I listened to that I really like,

55:20

and for the most part, and the problem is there's not enough of

55:24

it, and I'm running out of stuff to listen to, and I wish there

55:27

was a thing, and they have a patron. And so that so they have

55:30

little excerpts from like, these Patreon episodes. So I went, I

55:34

was at the gym. And between sets I literally went to because I

55:36

ran out of stuff to listen to I was like, what are they? How does this work? And the thing I wanted to figure out was, if I

55:41

pay them, can I use the the app I use to listen to that content?

55:45

Right, I think it's four bucks a month or something for this

55:48

particular thing. And I couldn't figure it out, I think I have to

55:52

go to the Patreon website, frankly, however, and this is

55:54

the part where you would be very familiar with Apple, maybe not

55:58

alone, but somewhat unique among podcasts, platform providers,

56:02

has subscriptions in their podcast app that you can do on a

56:06

per subscription basis. So the podcast, if I pay them directly,

56:10

it's four bucks a month. If I pay through Apple, it's only

56:14

through the apple podcast app, which I don't want to use

56:16

because I prefer cross platform. And it's more expensive, right?

56:20

Because Apple has their 30%. Yep. So it's five bucks. Right?

56:24

That's the that's the cost. And is like, that is a great

56:30

example, something that should just be easier, right? It

56:32

shouldn't matter what app I use it, I should be able to sign

56:36

into the account of the app and get that content through any

56:40

podcast app. And I don't think I can I could be wrong, but I

56:43

don't think right. Adam Curry: Well, he's right there. He's actually talking

56:48

about two different techno feudalist, which is Apple, and

56:54

also Patreon. What do they do like 10% these days? And then

56:59

they'll kick you off? If they don't like you if they get

57:01

complaints about, you know, a t shirt your war? Yeah, right.

57:06

Dave Jones: I think this is this is an interesting is an

57:11

interesting way. You know, I think as people who write stuff,

57:16

they write code and sort of build out systems that do

57:21

podcast delivery and podcast support. Let's just call it

57:26

podcast infrastructure. I think it's always interesting to hear

57:31

people who are not, who are technically literate. I'm not

57:37

talking about you know, your grandmother. I'm just talking

57:41

about people who are technically literate, but who are not in the

57:44

same milieu that we're in. And hear them describe what they

57:50

sort of expect to happen. And what their confusions and

57:56

frustrations are. And, you know, what he's describing is

58:01

something that is not new to anybody who built our podcast

58:06

infrastructure. We all understand this is an enormous

58:10

mess. And what and it should, he said, he says, this should be

58:16

easier. Hey, everybody, over here on this side of the

58:19

podcasts, infrastructure world, we all agree, this should

58:22

absolutely be easier. The reason it's not has nothing to do with

58:26

technology, because the technology exists and has

58:30

existed forever. I mean, you could do this very easily. I

58:33

mean, we we got on the on the horn, you know, we got Tom Rossi

58:37

on this show and banged out a subscription model and you know,

58:40

in a show, and that was based on stuff that we had actually done,

58:45

but way earlier. And so this is not it's not that it's difficult

58:51

or complicated. It's that these technical, would you call them

58:57

technical aristocratic, techno feudal,

59:00

Adam Curry: techno, techno feudalism.

59:02

Dave Jones: The Techno feudalist? Yes have have put

59:06

barriers in front financial barriers. And those financial

59:11

barriers are not just purely financial, they lead to deep

59:14

platforming. So you

59:16

Adam Curry: you violate enslavement that leads to

59:19

enslavement. Yeah, look at

59:21

Dave Jones: Dominus. They violated they were deemed to

59:25

have violated the terms by allowing people to send

59:32

lightning payments directly to each other and they were taken

59:37

down. They were deep platformed off of the app, the app store.

59:44

This this is what this is why the podcast app developer.

59:51

Community is so afraid. How many times have we heard over the

59:57

years that you I would love to support that. But I'm just a

1:00:02

little nervous that I'll get that I'll get rejected by app

1:00:06

review, Adam Curry: or or Yeah, App Review, Apple, Google, Google

1:00:09

has some weird rules too. Yes,

1:00:11

Dave Jones: for the day store. And that, in some ways, Google's

1:00:15

are even more arbitrary than iOS, me, because you'll go long

1:00:19

periods of time with no feedback, everything's fine. And

1:00:22

then just out of the blue. And so please, go ahead and play

1:00:28

part two of that. Paul, throughout, Unknown: this is something where this is going to come up again

1:00:31

and again. The answer is really, no, there's no, that's the

1:00:34

problem. And it's gonna, hopefully, through regulation

1:00:38

and customer pushback, some of this stuff will revert or get

1:00:42

better, right? Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. Don't worry, the government's here to

1:00:44

help. They'll take care of it for you. Yeah.

1:00:47

Dave Jones: Yes. This is this is the this is the answer that

1:00:51

people think we'll have is, oh, if we just sue. If we just get

1:00:56

the EFF the the, you know, the FTC. And if we just if we just

1:01:01

said anti anti anti trust, that all this stuff will sort itself

1:01:05

out? No, no, no, no, no, that's that's absolutely not the case.

1:01:08

Antitrust, anti competitive ministries of anti

1:01:13

competitiveness, these things around the world. They don't

1:01:15

exist to make. They don't exist to make the marketplace more

1:01:24

fair. They exist

1:01:27

Adam Curry: to give advantage to the to the big

1:01:30

Dave Jones: to the incumbent and the big incumbent. Exactly. They

1:01:34

are moat their moat builders. Adam Curry: That's exactly why you're seeing AI regulation. No

1:01:38

one knows what it is. But we can't have people doing this

1:01:41

stuff at home. Now, we can't have that which, of course, is

1:01:44

already the genies out of the bottle. Dave Jones: But I think this I think this really solidifies

1:01:49

that that idea that PWA is really are probably the the only

1:01:54

thing that that the only thing that makes sense long term for a

1:01:59

free for a purely free experience

1:02:05

Adam Curry: a question about PWA? Is, is it possible once

1:02:09

you've can can you load an entire podcast app being a PWA?

1:02:14

Local, on your in your local browser? And I mean, I

1:02:19

understand there's a lot of things you can't get without the

1:02:22

platform itself, without the machine itself, per se, but the

1:02:26

virtual machine that is a browser? I mean, can it? Can it

1:02:31

do enough? Visit? I mean, I started to look into it a little

1:02:35

bit, it seems like it is. So I know that, for instance, cast

1:02:42

ematic. Is it a serverless? App? Can you do the same and a PWA.

1:02:48

And I understand that an index or a place a light does have a

1:02:54

lightweight client, meaning you can't be actually I would say

1:02:58

that the only reason we have indexes is for search. I'm just

1:03:02

gonna go out on a limb here. There's a lot of other reasons

1:03:06

that are that are handy to have one. But it's really like I want

1:03:09

to it removes that the age old problem of click right click on

1:03:14

the RSS button and add it to your feed. That's really what it

1:03:17

removes. Dave Jones: Yeah, but ya know, yeah. And that's actually

1:03:21

bothered me in the past. I'm like, you know, the only thing

1:03:23

the only thing we really are here for is search. Yeah.

1:03:27

Adam Curry: So I understand that and search can be distributed.

1:03:30

There's lots of different, you know, thinking about that. But

1:03:34

can you create a PWA that just has it all in one bundle, you

1:03:38

load it once, now, and you load it from the server, you know,

1:03:44

there's a command service and here's the latest version, kind

1:03:46

of like a jar file back in the day, if I remember how Java used

1:03:49

to work, like, like you started up brings in a new JAR file,

1:03:53

okay, everything's good to go. Can Can that actually work in a

1:03:56

PWA? Can you build a podcast app that that is not just a web

1:04:01

front end, but actually has the logic in it?

1:04:04

Dave Jones: I think what you're saying is, can you could you

1:04:07

build an app where the essentially the index was in the

1:04:11

app, Adam Curry: bar, whatever relevant, whatever relevant?

1:04:14

Well, not just the index, but the logic of all the logic that

1:04:19

an app has, you know? Dave Jones: I guess. Yeah. You mean You mean like aggregating

1:04:26

feeds itself, not Adam Curry: the ones you subscribe to storing,

1:04:30

downloading storing stuff, there's enough space and all

1:04:32

that within its machine, whatever that is. I mean, I

1:04:35

thought that used to be a problem while you only have so

1:04:37

many, so much room to store stuff. Can you store it in a

1:04:42

download to your drive? Can it talk to your logical file system

1:04:45

and all these things that I've not kept up on over the years?

1:04:49

As PW A's have progressed? I think

1:04:53

Dave Jones: my understanding is that PW A's My understanding is

1:04:59

Pw A's have an Access outside of the browser cross origin

1:05:04

sandbox? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's, I

1:05:07

think that's the case if I don't think they're restricted by the

1:05:10

same origin policy. Okay. If that and if that's the case,

1:05:14

you, you definitely could do what you're saying. That, you

1:05:18

know, think like, like Ben Ben. Benjamin Bellamy, you know, he

1:05:25

had talked before about, about building apps with the whole

1:05:30

directory just in it. Sure. You grab a copy of the of the index,

1:05:35

and yeah, it's Adam Curry: only what's 60 gigs or whatever.

1:05:40

Dave Jones: 60 Gig app download? Yeah,

1:05:42

Adam Curry: well, I mean, you download the ones? Dave Jones: You don't? Yeah, it's definitely doable, because

1:05:47

you could actually I know, this is a really interesting idea. If

1:05:53

you had if you had like a seat, I can envision a service, okay.

1:06:00

And I can envision us doing sort of like a build your own

1:06:07

directory function. So that you could say, Okay, I want I want

1:06:17

all of these, I want all of these feeds. Let's say you had

1:06:22

some way to efficiently select large quantities of feed, like,

1:06:28

like, I don't want any of I want all of blueberries fades, I want

1:06:32

all of us browse fades, I want all of RSS dot coms feet. I

1:06:35

don't I'm just making stuff up. You could large swaths of feeds,

1:06:40

you could curate and say, Okay, I want a database with just

1:06:43

that. And then you down and then you download a custom database,

1:06:48

to throw into your app into as a as a built in feed database. And

1:06:56

then as you and then, then you be your app could then sort of

1:07:03

poll the index to get fresh content, whenever it needed or

1:07:08

download the weekly full dump or whatever. I don't know, I'm just

1:07:11

I'm just brainstorming here. I'm trying to think of ways where

1:07:14

you could have a fully self contained app that didn't suffer

1:07:17

from like, potential deliverability blocks,

1:07:22

Adam Curry: right? Well, that's another thing you can miss

1:07:25

always blocks, there's always roadblocks, there's always

1:07:28

things that that that'll happen. But I mean, it really, if you

1:07:33

just take it back to this simple RSS just blogs, just for site

1:07:38

just microblogging. Just real simple. A progressive web app

1:07:44

should be able to subscribe to feeds, pull them, but also

1:07:53

create and modify your own feed, and upload it to IPFS or, you

1:08:00

know, something else. And then you just basically created a

1:08:04

competitor to every social network out there, and how you

1:08:07

present the content. That's what determines what it is. So, you

1:08:13

know, I've always advocated for different types of podcast app

1:08:16

experiences, it's still kind of the it would still email I mean,

1:08:19

we're still doing email. The here's, here's your, here's the

1:08:21

people have sent you stuff. Here's a, an indicator that says

1:08:25

there's new stuff. Now. Most of them have kind of the river of

1:08:31

news idea, like, like pod verse and fountain you have a

1:08:35

scrolling list. Yeah, that's, that's the thing that is

1:08:40

enjoyable about a podcast app, is I see what's new in

1:08:44

chronological order. And it's not determined by some algo as

1:08:49

to what I'm seeing first, or what's being pushed in my face

1:08:51

or below a comment that I can't control it not showing up, you

1:08:55

know, that we could mean the same infrastructure applies the

1:09:00

exact same infrastructure and probably eventually will doesn't

1:09:07

mean that posting companies have to go away at all. But we're

1:09:12

gonna have to start thinking about creating these things.

1:09:17

Dave Jones: There's just a difference. There's a difference in purpose between, you know, fundamentally between what I

1:09:25

would say open source and the witching which is us is trying

1:09:29

to do and what the podcast industrial complex what their,

1:09:32

what their endeavors are. Adam Curry: So there's they're fundamentally absolutely open

1:09:38

source. The web is open source. RSS is open, it's open. Anybody

1:09:43

can use it, anybody can create it, the minute it's not, they're

1:09:46

creating cloud capital, and it's meant to keep you out and it's

1:09:49

meant to make money on it, which is fine. But unfortunately, the

1:09:54

world is so connected now. That it's not just about money. It's

1:09:57

about power. It's about information. Power of

1:10:00

information, the power of words, you know, that we need to

1:10:06

create, we need to continue to create we're doing it, we need

1:10:08

to continue to create that parallel universe the same

1:10:11

thing. We had a very lovely call with Sam and Michael from wave

1:10:14

lake on. And it was good because we cleared a lot of things up.

1:10:20

And, and it really dawned on me so so the same thing applies, by

1:10:26

the way. I mean, eventually, someone's gonna go to wave Lake

1:10:31

and say, hey, you know, this song has this lyric in it, which

1:10:36

I accidentally played on boosted Grand Ball. Which

1:10:41

Dave Jones: which condolences, okay?

1:10:44

Adam Curry: Which, you know, is against European rules, it's

1:10:49

violence towards women, it's, you know, it. It's, it's

1:10:54

provocated, which, by the way, is what art sometimes is

1:10:58

supposed to be if not always wavelength, you got to take that

1:11:01

off. Now, that's going to happen, you just know what's

1:11:05

going to happen. Doesn't mean that that that company's that

1:11:10

handhold. And boy, I got a real I was humbled by my

1:11:17

misunderstanding of the difference between a podcaster

1:11:21

and musicians, artists, artists have had to have a very

1:11:27

different back end business model that has been created for

1:11:31

them, but they've all had to adhere to. And it's all

1:11:34

regulation, that all behooves the incumbents of not the

1:11:38

creator, if you will, at all. And all for, you know, for

1:11:42

industry and for publishing companies and record companies

1:11:46

and all stuff that is actually no longer needed. But you don't

1:11:50

just twist someone's mind overnight and say, Oh, you don't

1:11:54

have to do it that way. It's not that simple. The handholding

1:11:59

that will be necessary for for artists have to be brought into

1:12:05

the system, the understanding even just purely of what is an

1:12:09

RSS feed and what what do I actually own with it and what

1:12:13

what hangs off of it is miles behind where we are with

1:12:18

podcasting. And so I underestimated how important it

1:12:24

is what the company like wave Lake is doing to try and end

1:12:28

they're learning themselves. They are definitely learning

1:12:32

themselves to to bring that in. And and it really was apparent.

1:12:38

This was quite a phenomenal experience. So Ainsley

1:12:42

Costello's manager, Julie, so she loves Sam that wavelength

1:12:48

she loves what they're doing. She's so happy that you know

1:12:50

it's working and things are are taking off, but she completely

1:12:55

understands the future necessity of sovereignty. Because she's

1:13:01

been through the label lying the you know, the bullcrap the money

1:13:07

stealing, she's seen it all. And she's also seen it from the

1:13:11

modern platforms, the scam that just to get played the whole

1:13:14

thing. She understands that, Dave Jones: but love to have her on the show if she would ever be

1:13:19

willing to talk about it. Adam Curry: I'm sure she will not. The Julie is phenomenal,

1:13:23

because you can't just have a chat with her. I've had two

1:13:26

phone calls each one three hours. She said she sent me a

1:13:29

night she said no, but here's what's in she sent me an email

1:13:32

last night. I haven't responded to it yet. This is one of the

1:13:35

longest emails I've received in my life. Actually, let me do a

1:13:41

word count on it. This is hilarious homage.

1:13:44

Dave Jones: Does it come with a link to check GPT

1:13:48

Adam Curry: want to be able to summarize it? Yeah, it's

1:13:51

literally titled thoughts. Okay, hold on a second.

1:13:56

Dave Jones: Love one one word subject and 5000 word even

1:14:00

Adam Curry: though it may let me just see for it. And this isn't an I love it. And my first opening and my reply to her is

1:14:06

going to be I love that you did this. Just let me just see Hold

1:14:11

on a second. No, let me just paste this. Let me get a word

1:14:14

caps. Let me get enough says it's a sub stack. Oh, no, it's

1:14:18

it's like it's two sub stack accounts. Is there there's got

1:14:23

to be a word I'm looking at notepad plus plus surely they

1:14:26

have a Dave Jones: yes. And there is at the bottom on the status bar.

1:14:31

Oh, Adam Curry: thank you my one Words 9779 Words. Whoa, yes.

1:14:46

Now, Dave Jones: what do you fear for the mere fact the mere fact that

1:14:49

somebody okay, this when somebody sends me a one a one or

1:14:54

two sentence email. I'm very appreciative when somebody sends

1:14:57

me a five paragraph email I am annoyed when somebody sends me a

1:15:02

9000 word email. I'm like, I will print that thing and spend

1:15:08

a Sunday morning reading it. Because I mean, that is a person

1:15:12

who has something to say, and you better listen. Correct.

1:15:15

Adam Curry: So the first thing she goes into his US law about

1:15:19

what is a podcast? And you know, should it be deemed under? Me?

1:15:23

Oh, the radio guidelines? And so, you know, I'm going to set

1:15:27

her straight on that. Because if, if the industry, the

1:15:31

Haddaway, to license music and podcast, they would have done

1:15:35

it. Are you kidding me? They would love to do that. But they

1:15:38

can't, because they're all fighting against each other?

1:15:41

Because is it a performance? Is it a stream? Is it a download?

1:15:44

is a mechanical copy? Is it a? Is it a derivative work, I mean,

1:15:48

et cetera, et cetera. But what's interesting is that in this

1:15:53

quest for her, by her to, to fit the existing system of

1:16:01

publishing rights master and rap master recording, splits,

1:16:05

there's all these different things that go and this is just

1:16:08

for existing work and how she's had to work with with Ainsley in

1:16:12

her in her. In her career, she sees the need for a sovereign

1:16:21

way to do this. Now, here's what's an everyone has only been

1:16:25

helpful. So I'm not being negative about anybody. But I

1:16:28

also saw because she's in the telegram group. And she has had,

1:16:32

so she had a meeting with voltage and voltage said, Oh, I

1:16:35

know what you want, do you want your own node, then you want to

1:16:39

have BTC pay server. And, and so she's there, she's swimming in

1:16:44

the sea of information goes into the telegram group, you know,

1:16:47

the music part, music side project, which she's got music

1:16:51

side project running successfully. Because I'm having

1:16:55

this problem with the node and the first answers that come was

1:16:57

oh, no, you should run your own node on the laptop at home. Like

1:17:00

no, no, no. So now she's confused about liquidity. And

1:17:03

you know, we have to have liquidity. So all these things.

1:17:06

Yeah, she's just, she, she's, she can't see the forest through

1:17:10

the trees. And so that really made me realize that wow, you

1:17:16

know, we have a whole lot of work and an explaining to do and

1:17:21

even the she the fundament, she doesn't fundamentally yet

1:17:25

understand that she thinks that splits come from the split kit.

1:17:28

I mean, this is all so convoluted. And no one's to

1:17:32

blame. Everyone's really trying to help and she's gotten

1:17:34

incredibly far for where she is. But she now is things Okay,

1:17:41

well, it's actually good that every song has its own feed,

1:17:44

because that's the ownership of that song. And we can we can

1:17:48

split that underneath that. And she doesn't even fundamentally

1:17:51

yet, understand that a feed has a channel level and item level,

1:17:56

and that the ownership and Dave Jones: and why would she? And I No, of course not. No, no,

1:18:00

no human should under should have to understand

1:18:02

Adam Curry: exactly, exactly. And again, everyone's just being

1:18:05

super helpful. It's just the eye and I'm sitting there, my eyes

1:18:09

are swimming, like, I'm 100. I'm gonna think about this for a

1:18:11

second and come exactly do we need to do this? So there's so

1:18:16

much thinking that has to go into this, that I'm very happy,

1:18:20

we're able to onboard artists and all through this quagmire of

1:18:25

just stuff because we've been dealing with liquidity of nodes

1:18:29

for three years when we started, there was ln pay. We that was

1:18:35

it. That was it, you know, and and voltage that was ordered for

1:18:38

roll your own and all that stuff was breaking left and right as

1:18:42

well. So while al B is not sovereign, per se, you know, I

1:18:51

thank God that we have Alby and now I see the breeze SDK is

1:18:57

starting to gain some traction. So we're building all this. At

1:19:02

the same time people are coming in at a level of understanding

1:19:05

that is very far behind ours. I think that that Sam and Michael

1:19:12

at wave Lake, you know, they're just kind of coming up to speed

1:19:15

on this stuff. And you and I both kind of half right on on

1:19:20

the splits there. But really, I'm gonna take some blame for

1:19:24

this because I misunderstood what they were saying. there was

1:19:30

miscommunication everywhere. The good guys, they really want to

1:19:34

try and artists have been jerked around for really, since day

1:19:38

one, if you think about it. From day one of the Ahmed Erdogan

1:19:43

selling the records out of the trunk of his car. Artists have

1:19:48

been jerked around mainly on money. And, and if you screw it

1:19:52

up, the artists gonna say okay, that was great. That didn't

1:19:55

work. Screw those guys. I'm not interested in this V for V

1:19:59

music. I don't Right, and even just what is value for value,

1:20:03

you know, this, this, this, we need a lot of time, and a lot of

1:20:09

love and care amongst each other to make this all fit together

1:20:13

and work. And I'm certainly guilty of running, running boom,

1:20:19

let me do I took the Bookstagram ball off this week, I was like,

1:20:22

I just got to notice that I just got to recollect my thoughts

1:20:25

here for a second. Yeah, just and also I wanted to, you know,

1:20:29

just look at everything I've played, and, you know, evaluate

1:20:32

what I'm doing. So, I'm just taking this took a little

1:20:39

breather, and it was really good, because this is when I saw

1:20:43

that we are so far on the path of good, good not just for meal,

1:20:48

forget commercial goodness, just good for people and humanity,

1:20:52

and distributing joy and information, and happiness and

1:20:57

sadness and all emotions and, and words of all kinds. You

1:21:03

know, Scott Tate, you know, the the Middle East thing happened,

1:21:06

like, Oh, my God, look, everyone's spun up and their

1:21:11

people want to go to the movie theater, they're so freaked out

1:21:14

by what they saw on social media, they're afraid now, you

1:21:17

know, so all these things come into play. And like, whoa, we

1:21:20

are being controlled. We are so controlled by this whole system

1:21:24

and ourselves. Now, we still have tail bones, we have no

1:21:29

business, trying to communicate with each other on a social

1:21:32

network. That, you know, I'm so happy that we have this group of

1:21:39

people who are thoughtful. And and, and, you know, yeah, I

1:21:43

think I stumbled I think I got a little, a little weird about

1:21:47

wave Lake, you know, being one of us or whatever. But really,

1:21:51

we're all in this together. And we have to all open up and

1:21:55

listen to where we're all coming from sometimes, you know, Alex

1:22:00

gates, I'm like, he'll say something like, here's a good

1:22:03

example. And I'm saying you know, I really love booster

1:22:07

grams the way they are on on fountain, you know, that all of

1:22:12

a sudden, there's a there's a people are, you know, they're

1:22:16

reading the booster grams on fountain, they can't read it

1:22:18

anywhere else. And so we get into this, you know, the kind of

1:22:23

old cross app comments, which just hasn't taken off, and I

1:22:25

still publish them, it just hasn't taken off, they're not

1:22:28

showing up and after whatever. It's okay. And, you know, his,

1:22:35

his demeanor is, I think it's wrong for people to have to pay

1:22:39

to comment on something. Right, which is totally okay. And so,

1:22:45

it was good, because instead of thinking now, screw you, Alex

1:22:48

gates, I thought, okay, how do I, how can I work around this to

1:22:53

get what I want? Which is not really the same as comments, I

1:22:57

realized it took me a minute to think about it. And I have a

1:23:02

request for service actually, that goes along with this. Now,

1:23:07

if someone wants to create this service, I will give you a split

1:23:10

and you can you can receive value for this service that I

1:23:13

would like I would like to have a service that takes my booster

1:23:18

grams for each episode, and creates a dynamic chapter file.

1:23:25

So that booster grams appear in a chapter at the minute they

1:23:31

were sent during the listening of the podcast. So instead of

1:23:35

images preset, and even if if that boosted Graham, because

1:23:39

it's all sent in the TLV. If that boosted Graham has a link

1:23:43

to a remote item such as a song I want that to be the link.

1:23:46

Dave Jones: Oh, okay, so you're saying that the the chapter,

1:23:50

let's just say chapters in chapter or chapter title,

1:23:53

Adam Curry: yeah, the chapter title and then something in the art you can dynamically generate something. So just like a

1:23:58

timeline, you know, like the timeline on SoundCloud when

1:24:01

people leave comments that so instead of the timeline, the

1:24:06

minute someone says Now of course, you know, you'll have to

1:24:09

you know, it'll be different each time you load up the

1:24:11

podcast or whatever I mean, I'm not I'm not a bit chapters seem

1:24:15

to work pretty well. I start off with a dummy chapter and then

1:24:18

dread puts chapters in later and then they show up for people who

1:24:21

get it later and everyone seems to be pretty happy. I would love

1:24:25

to have the option to say okay, my chapter file is here and that

1:24:28

chapter file is generated dynamically from a split that I

1:24:31

send to a service then the service then takes the booster

1:24:35

Graham takes the timestamp, you know does like let's just like

1:24:39

heli pad with Eric p p is done is is cool. Like, you know, put

1:24:44

some duck emojis in there if it's a to to and show that as a

1:24:48

chapter. perfectly valid use of chapters, right?

1:24:53

Dave Jones: Well, I mean, I think you could probably make I

1:24:56

think he could probably make Hello Pat do that, right? I

1:25:01

mean, because you could take your take Adam Curry: Yeah, you could have an export from hell it Well, the

1:25:05

thing is it would kind of have to be dynamic because people are

1:25:07

there listening to the show. Forget the live show just I

1:25:11

released a show there should be no booster grams. So once the

1:25:14

booster grams come in, for the next person should be able to

1:25:17

see that when they load up the episode. Or may or may or may be

1:25:23

there's a pod ping event that goes out at the same time and

1:25:25

then the app knows to refresh that or whatever. So but anyway,

1:25:33

my point being because I took a step back and it wasn't my

1:25:38

hackles are weren't hackles weren't all up because of a

1:25:42

philosophical difference we have. It led me to something

1:25:45

that I think is a fun way of doing it that that has nothing

1:25:50

to do with cross app comments. I guess I'm saying we need to

1:25:55

listen and love each other more. Dave Jones: I know, sweetie,

1:26:00

Adam Curry: I'm really I'm on. I'm on a love trip here, baby.

1:26:05

Dave Jones: As I think this is important for a couple of

1:26:09

reasons. It's a good discussion, because we're between phases on

1:26:14

the namespace. We got a lot of good ideas. Yes, there's some

1:26:18

things we need. We want to go in, we get we want. We want to

1:26:21

continue going forward, you know, undeniably. But there's

1:26:29

also we don't here's a there's a risk here. The risk is

1:26:38

piggybacking off what the discussion was with what Paul

1:26:42

throughout was saying. Because he went on, he said a lot more

1:26:46

that that episode was there was a lot more than that I cut out

1:26:49

about just this idea of the modifications of the internet

1:26:53

and about overload of social media and all these things. The

1:26:58

risk, I believe, is that we don't want podcasting to get

1:27:03

caught up. In what I think is an inevitable walk away. Or

1:27:12

pullback from the insurify to internet all around.

1:27:17

Adam Curry: Can the title of this episode be and should ification

1:27:21

Dave Jones: I think it should be yes. Robert's Rules of orders. I

1:27:24

vote I make an MA so. Yeah. So the fully and certified internet

1:27:32

is going to make people walk away from it. Yeah, I think

1:27:35

that's already happening. There's no other explanation on

1:27:39

a large scale for some of the things we see. Now, now some

1:27:45

some things are just sort of like a downturn, their

1:27:49

financial. But I think post let's start with this. The

1:27:53

pandemic broke everybody's brain. Adam Curry: Oh, we're all very, very traumatized by it. Perhaps

1:27:59

we're broken. Yeah. We're broken people.

1:28:03

Dave Jones: We are in in the brokenness, I think is

1:28:06

manifesting itself. What one thing you've seen is massive

1:28:11

travel. People are vacationing, they're getting away from in

1:28:18

mass getting away from the internet more. I've done this

1:28:22

this week. The last two weeks. I've had times like I would

1:28:28

qualify myself as a heavy podcast listener. Yeah, I'm

1:28:32

probably listened to, I don't know, two to three hours of

1:28:38

podcasts a day. Minimum. And I've that has changed for me, I

1:28:46

find it very, I'm finding it more and more difficult to

1:28:50

listen to that quantity of podcasts. I just want to take

1:28:52

the earbuds out and go and go do something else besides plug into

1:29:00

sort of the technology. And it's like the the internet needs the

1:29:05

internet is going to eventually become like, like the like your

1:29:12

electricity provider is just going to be a thing that you

1:29:15

need for certain tasks, but you're not going to live on it

1:29:19

like you used to. Right. But because we were just I think

1:29:22

we're adapting to what this thing is now and so we don't

1:29:26

want podcasting in general to become wrapped up in this I

1:29:32

think was driven the frustration now with technology. Try you

1:29:36

know try just doing something simple. And then it's like

1:29:40

somebody brought me this morning on an iPad that they they bought

1:29:43

a new one they want to they want to just set it up like their old

1:29:48

one. banging my head against the wall. This is should be a simple

1:29:51

process. It was like it took an hour and a half. Yeah. Oh your

1:29:56

passwords now you forgot your password. You gotta reset.

1:29:59

There's got to reset that. To get oh, that didn't work got a bubble. It's like, you know what, at that point, there comes

1:30:04

a point of frustration where you're just like, you know, I

1:30:07

don't even want an app anymore. Just forget, I thought I did.

1:30:09

This is not worth it. This is not making my life better. It's

1:30:12

making it worse. Right? And so this walk away sort of, from

1:30:17

things. The the advertising base podcast industrial complex, is

1:30:23

if it's going to velcro itself, to the insurer edified internet

1:30:29

in a way that when people walk away, they're going to walk away

1:30:32

from podcasting, also. And that we don't want that. And if we

1:30:36

are not careful about driving the technology to levels of

1:30:40

complication, and going too fast, then we're going to also,

1:30:47

you know, we got a Velcro suit, and we're going to jump on that

1:30:50

thing, too. And we don't want that either. No, there's no,

1:30:55

just stay on it. Yeah. Adam Curry: And that's a real danger. I agree. It's a real

1:31:00

danger. Dave Jones: Yeah, we don't want people like, Julie, to be like,

1:31:04

hey, you know what, screw this. I've spent all day on this. And

1:31:08

I can't even get on I wrote Adam Curry: in the 10,000. I wrote 10,000 words.

1:31:13

Dave Jones: 1000 words, and I still don't have a lightning payment. I can't I don't know how to open a channel. You know,

1:31:19

this is we don't want this Adam Curry: no stuff stuff she should never have to deal with.

1:31:24

You're not a banker.

1:31:27

Dave Jones: Right? So I think the answer really is a general

1:31:30

slowing down and focusing on the quality on tightening up the

1:31:35

things that already exist. And in enhance, you know, making

1:31:42

this thing work, making it away, because we still have podcast

1:31:46

hosts that have only done transcripts. They owe them that

1:31:49

they haven't taken step two, Adam Curry: by the way. I mean, it's what's really funny is I

1:31:53

realized, that podcast mirror, which is the blueberry service,

1:31:59

I realized they have entire instructions on how to value for

1:32:02

value, enable your SoundCloud feed. I mean, it's like I don't

1:32:07

even want to tell people about that. But But I mean, how cool

1:32:12

is it, you could literally hook up an Albea wallet, to your

1:32:16

SoundCloud today and add an add it to the index and you're good

1:32:23

to go. I mean, that's another way of onboarding. But I, I I

1:32:29

have learned like No, no, that's not a good idea. We want these

1:32:34

people, these podcasters known as artists, they need hand

1:32:39

holding, they need a different way of getting in. And be right

1:32:45

slowing down is good. I mean, we've we've we've gone so balls

1:32:50

to the wall with value for value in you know, I think we have,

1:32:54

you know, what do you what, how many feeds that we have now?

1:32:57

16,000 17,000? Dave Jones: Oh, I haven't even looked at pencil long.

1:33:00

Adam Curry: And where do I find that? I Dave Jones: have? It's on the it's on the index? Stats, maybe?

1:33:07

No, it's not. It's on the value for value page. It loads

1:33:12

progressively. Adam Curry: Yeah, not have my here. I have stats. 15,004 88

1:33:18

Yeah. So that's haven't gotten a report from our guy, Ron, about

1:33:26

the growth. But I think the 50s We've gone from 15,000 to 15,015

1:33:32

and a half 1000 has been pretty slow. Probably.

1:33:36

Dave Jones: Not sure. Yeah. Yes. He Brooklyn said we should get

1:33:40

back to mailing out physical newsletters. Adam Curry: I am all for it. You know, I got a catalog in the

1:33:45

mail the other day. You read it. It's this huge catalog of mainly

1:33:51

for office supplies, but they have all kinds of stuff in it. I

1:33:54

had an enjoyable experience. I'm like, Oh, what about this chair?

1:33:59

Oh, here's a cabinet. I never knew I needed it just just

1:34:03

thumbing through the catalog. Like wow. And I don't think

1:34:06

these guys probably are onto something. They're not old

1:34:09

school. This is new. Dave Jones: It's I subscribe. I now subscribe to a newspaper.

1:34:16

Adam Curry: Alright, somebody needs to do a wellness check on

1:34:19

Dave. No, Dave Jones: just it's Walter Kearns newspaper. He is a

1:34:24

frequent newspaper. Yeah, it's called County Highway. And it is

1:34:30

a newspaper of of just well written stories that don't the

1:34:40

in and there it's not digital in any form. You cannot get this in

1:34:43

digital format. It doesn't exist. It only exists on paper.

1:34:47

Adam Curry: Bring back zines. Now,

1:34:49

Dave Jones: I mean, you talk I love reading this newspaper. It

1:34:52

is a fantastic experience. It makes you want a cup of coffee.

1:34:55

Adam Curry: Yeah. ULINE is called Uline

1:34:58

Dave Jones: Oh, I've seen this. Yeah. The online catalog man

1:35:01

that well it's like a phone book. It's super fun. You can

1:35:06

get if you need. If you need about 7000 feet of plastic wrap,

1:35:12

you can they they're your they're your paper. Adam Curry: But there's a lot of other cool stuff in there, like

1:35:17

a gun rack for my car like, Oh, I didn't know I needed that.

1:35:19

Yeah, I don't. Dave Jones: Or one of those giant tape.

1:35:24

Adam Curry: Those, those are hotspots. Like, Hey, baby, I got

1:35:28

this huge toilet bottle dispenser.

1:35:34

Dave Jones: Bubble wrap this as your head? Adam Curry: Should we thank a few people since we're here we

1:35:39

can because I know you need we'll have some some time

1:35:42

leftover after we do that. Dave Jones: I do but but I want to. I want to say that you are

1:35:49

right. I just want to throw you a bone here. Say you are 100%

1:35:54

correct about about you've all either the thing you've always

1:35:59

said is 50% of our advertising dollars are working. But we just

1:36:04

don't know which 50 We just don't know which half you have

1:36:07

for advertiser is that the rest for advertising? You

1:36:10

Adam Curry: know, half of my advertising money is working. I

1:36:12

just don't know which half I don't I didn't come up with. By

1:36:15

the way. That's not my it's not Adam curry original.

1:36:18

Dave Jones: The title of this article for at age, nearly half

1:36:21

the data used for ad targeting is wrong. Surprise. And it goes

1:36:28

on to describe the complete farce that is data that is data

1:36:34

ad targeting one provider, that average only 44% email postal

1:36:39

match accuracy. Overall had, you'll see oh, no, here it is.

1:36:44

Average accuracy, accuracy among data providers ranged from 32%

1:36:49

to 69%. Wow, they don't know what they're doing now. Is this

1:36:52

all a big force? So thanks for people.

1:36:56

Adam Curry: Yes. And, and I will say value for value works

1:37:00

doesn't all have to be Satoshis. But as we heard Paul throt say I

1:37:03

just want to be easy. We have created this easy way. In the in

1:37:07

the new podcast app. So I was appreciative of James his

1:37:11

explanation, that it's just a fair ground token. Value for

1:37:19

value. It's it's not crypto. It's a fair ground token.

1:37:22

Dave Jones: Okay. corndog fun, okay. Hey,

1:37:25

Adam Curry: I actually take the SATs that I earned and we buy B

1:37:28

from Kane c capital with it. You know, I feel very powerful each

1:37:31

time I do that say thank you boosters. I really do. I was

1:37:35

very Dave Jones: zoomed in. I can see cattle ordering their shipping

1:37:38

went through the roof for about two months. And then then now

1:37:41

it's come back down to delivery. Adam Curry: That's a direct pass through. That's up I don't know

1:37:47

what Dave Jones: happened. I don't know why when afraid when I went

1:37:49

from like 100 bucks up to like 400 or something. I was like,

1:37:52

Yeah, Adam Curry: but if you go to if you go to beef initiative.com

1:37:55

You can find an exact similar rancher near you in Alabama, and

1:38:00

they'll ship it there'll be much cheaper shipping, you could even

1:38:03

go there and pick it up yourself Dave Jones: and have to leave the house and stuff.

1:38:08

Adam Curry: Your truck would make so much sense driving onto

1:38:10

the ranch. Like hey, Dave Jones: there's one of us. That may give me a discount.

1:38:15

Adam Curry: What came in during this live show for some reason I

1:38:18

didn't hear any pew pew is I don't know why that what happened there. We got 5000 SATs from Eric and love you guys

1:38:24

trying to make my own music podcast. Thanks for the inspiration. We need those we definitely need. Oh, just quick

1:38:31

little update question. Have you had any any chance to work on

1:38:35

the remote items stuff in the API?

1:38:40

Dave Jones: I started to and then I had to I had to try to

1:38:45

figure out if I could do this Adam Curry: distributed distributed polling

1:38:53

Dave Jones: yeah the x yeah export a copy of the non sure

1:38:57

feature. It is right around the corner like I'm going to start

1:39:00

it within the next day or so as Adam Curry: always this just go go as you can brother. I have

1:39:06

learned now easy slow, steady as she goes.

1:39:09

Dave Jones: Steady. It is it is it is right it is on the

1:39:12

immediate do list yes okay.

1:39:16

Adam Curry: 6333 from shred word who says I'm boosting for Dad

1:39:20

door full who is listening from the roof of Sir TJ the raffle

1:39:24

he's putting on a new roof for us. I and shred word I shred

1:39:27

word live in the top floor apartment of T Jay's house

1:39:30

because he's got capital. Dave Jones: That's an Isaac Asimov book right I should

1:39:36

Adam Curry: Oh, I guess you're right I didn't I didn't even

1:39:38

connect that Dave Jones: I Robot. That was an AI robot.

1:39:42

Adam Curry: Like it. Actually I wanted to play a doorbells.

1:39:46

We're running out of time. Dobby daSun whoa dwelve let's get

1:39:50

through these Dobby das 5000 SATs I've been working nonstop

1:39:53

on bringing music shows to RSS blue. Most of the prerequisites

1:39:57

are ready hoped to have it finished in two weeks time ah

1:40:00

Adobe does love you love you love you love you. I can't wait

1:40:04

to send all my DJ friends to you. I really can't that'll be

1:40:08

that I'm so excited by that. Adobe does send us another

1:40:12

10,000 sets and says Happy Birthday podcasting. 2.0 Is it

1:40:15

our birthday? Dave Jones: 100 video episodes. Oh, hey,

1:40:19

Adam Curry: happy birthday. Dave Jones: It's our 150th birthday.

1:40:21

Adam Curry: Happy birthday. And then we're sad. Oh, I bet you

1:40:25

know it's funny when you when you attend a party and don't

1:40:28

even realize this for you, as Dred Scott says 150,000 SATs to

1:40:34

celebrate episode 150 Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze only Impala.

1:40:41

Adam Curry: He says thanks for letting this non developer find

1:40:43

a way to be involved go podcasting. Thank you Drib gets

1:40:48

it Thank you brother so much. Thank you so much man. And

1:40:53

that's what came in during the live show. Oh, we got one last

1:40:56

one up is a donut my my jingle here it is. 777 77 We call that

1:41:07

a striper boost from Sir TJ the wrathful says and I love the

1:41:13

little Eric peepee inspired Hallo emoji there for the 7777 I

1:41:19

freaking hate you lines please stop. Now V four v magazines I'd

1:41:25

be happy to do oh he's a mail carrier V for V magazines. I'd

1:41:28

be happy to deliver your friendly neighborhood music

1:41:31

making make mail carrier wrathful doorsill Should we play

1:41:34

should we play this little doorbells? I think we should.

1:41:37

Yeah. Because I love their podcast into the door full verse

1:41:43

and they are just sitting around as a family as a family imagine

1:41:47

that it still happens sitting around as a family and they say

1:41:51

you know why don't we just do one of our songs live we'll just

1:41:54

do bloodshot lies live and we'll just sing it live and we'll play

1:41:59

it live and and they did and I'd like to share that with

1:42:01

everybody because it blew and they're in the garage like

1:42:05

plugged in unplug the door falls unplug one two

1:42:30

Unknown: it was mom and dad you're on your phone now welcome

1:42:34

all the voices saying that you're not too many too many

1:42:40

causes when you lose yourself getting known and and fine can't

1:42:46

believe in all the filters that you've chosen through can hide

1:42:50

the real inside the person that so many story lines tangled up

1:42:56

inside with what you think is true

1:43:00

I don't even grow with you now

1:43:22

get you get you keep telling me all these birds shot you

1:43:40

any livan away to see through all the broken glass to all

1:43:51

those Saturday Friday as the storms blew by it was just I

1:44:05

don't even now

1:44:13

because a minor was it goodbye

1:44:33

You can tell them all these guys shot

1:45:00

Do all the promises you wasted on your youth You told so many

1:45:14

lies you believe it it's the truth you gonna be if that's

1:45:19

more important is that more important I don't even

1:45:37

know good bye

1:45:59

all these Adam Curry: things oh yeah, other than me stepping on

1:46:07

yourself. Oh, it was great that shit gives me goosebumps, man.

1:46:13

Love it just goosebumps.

1:46:16

Dave Jones: It just reminds you of the old of like Eric Clapton

1:46:19

and blood they'll do what MTV Adam Curry: Unplugged. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Love it, but I

1:46:24

love this a family. You have to do it together. The whole story

1:46:28

is just so good. So good. That's what I want. We need more of

1:46:32

that. Dave Jones: Yeah, I love it, man.

1:46:36

Adam Curry: And back, back to the booster grabs. Here we go.

1:46:40

We're gonna pick the hell out. Oh, okay. Yes, indeed. We get.

1:46:42

Dave Jones: We get a big one. From Benjamin Richardson and

1:46:46

Alberto botella. From maurices.com. these's they send

1:46:49

us $1,234

1:46:52

Adam Curry: whole Lee macro.

1:46:56

Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze only Impala.

1:47:00

Adam Curry: You guys, thank you so much. You keep you guys the

1:47:04

hosting companies, man. They do so well on keeping this rolling.

1:47:07

Dave Jones: Yeah. And as you know, they're the IPFS stuff in

1:47:14

there. They're not just insular. They're not just looking into

1:47:17

themselves. I mean, don't know exactly what they're looking at.

1:47:21

They're looking, you know, the reason they the reason that

1:47:24

rss.com sends us you know, $1,000 is because they see

1:47:29

they're they're marching beside us towards what we're just

1:47:32

talking about on the show. Like we've got to have a we got to

1:47:36

push this thing broad it's got to go it's got to go wide

1:47:39

instead of Adam Curry: and I was I was just thinking you know, it's like

1:47:43

just jumping ahead three steps of course, but it's like that

1:47:46

service I just talked about or even even sovereign feats, you

1:47:50

know, if I could run that on my own start nine, I'd still cut

1:47:53

Steve and be in for 10% You know, sure. Just because it's

1:47:57

you know, it's not about bandwidth anymore. It's about

1:48:00

the creativity the service you know, the updates the upgrading

1:48:03

keeping it you know, the the features it's like that's how it

1:48:08

works about this point my my shows I give away more than half

1:48:12

of the value. Dave Jones: Yeah. If you got like 20 splits in there. No,

1:48:18

it's gonna Adam Curry: know so far it hasn't. That's the beauty of it.

1:48:23

As far as I know. Now, you know, it's it's fantastic like 50% of

1:48:27

most of my shows now are going somewhere else and I love it.

1:48:31

Dave Jones: Benjamin Richardson says, Adam and Dave we are

1:48:34

grateful to everyone in the podcast and 2.0 community for

1:48:37

all the time talent and treasure they freely give back to the

1:48:39

project we love what it means to be a two way loves love what it

1:48:45

means to podcasting podcasters and listeners from your

1:48:48

[email protected] go podcast go

1:48:52

Unknown: yeah Dave Jones: see we've got and we've got an autumn a new

1:48:59

subscriber automatic payment $1 from Yaren Rosenstein thank you

1:49:03

for the subscription Adam Curry: you yarn Yeah,

1:49:06

Dave Jones: we've got some booster grams for sure we got

1:49:08

3658 from the tone Rick, thank you Tom record it if you found

1:49:13

any says a value amount amount determined not to have any

1:49:16

associated references or messages other than things.

1:49:19

Adam Curry: Thank you. And don't numerology involves

1:49:24

Dave Jones: Todd Cochran 100,000 says he says Ask and You Shall

1:49:27

Receive we are working on adding more 2.0 features go podcasting?

1:49:30

FYI not grumpy yet. Adam Curry: I think we played I think we read that one on the

1:49:36

last show actually. Might have come in live. Yeah. Might have

1:49:39

come in live. We did that one. possibly.

1:49:41

Dave Jones: Possibly. Maybe it was alive. Okay.

1:49:45

Adam Curry: Thank you, Josh. Thank you so much. I know you're not grumpy yet. If Todd celebrated 19 years Oh, wait,

1:49:53

I'm gonna have podcasting and he's on. He's on the Todd

1:49:57

Cochran the you know, she's a big value for value. promotor

1:50:00

man, he was on that pod news weekly review. Good interview

1:50:04

with Sam. Dave Jones: haven't got there yet. Oh, it's great, like 15

1:50:08

minutes into a certain part. He Adam Curry: said, I'm sitting here. Listen, I'm getting ready

1:50:11

for the show. And he's like, I mean, alpha Valley Valley,

1:50:14

you've got to train your audience. And he's, oh, hold on

1:50:16

a second. He says, I think people just cringe when I said

1:50:19

that you don't train your audience. And I was just yelling

1:50:22

at my at my phone. You don't train your audience taught and

1:50:25

he corrected Dave Jones: himself. I love the trimmer in the pores.

1:50:30

Adam Curry: No, but he's he he's he's he gets it. $10,000 in like

1:50:33

four months to blueberry podcast podcasters to value for value

1:50:39

with Satoshis it's pretty amazing.

1:50:42

Dave Jones: To see drips, God said, Did we get the row of

1:50:45

ducks Inception boost? 22 to 22?

1:50:50

Adam Curry: I'm not sure. Well, we

1:50:52

Dave Jones: got it through pod verse. Thank you, Dr. Scott.

1:50:54

Thank Adam Curry: you so much, Dr. Dave Jones: Jean bein 2222 through cast ematic he says if

1:51:01

you all could solve some of the linking and indexing of person

1:51:04

tags, I think that would remove some barriers of adoption by

1:51:07

hosts like bus route. Well, bus route does the person tag. They

1:51:12

do that already? Adam Curry: Maybe it's talking about cross referencing and

1:51:16

linking and like how many times what other podcasts is this

1:51:20

person appeared on? Or do they host kind of remote Remote

1:51:26

Reference a remote item or not? I guess not. Yeah, I don't think

1:51:31

so. No. Okay. That

1:51:34

Dave Jones: okay, maybe Yeah, I think you're right talking about the stuff we were talking about last week where you link between

1:51:39

the where you pull the remote you follow the Remote Reference

1:51:43

get the person from it and then pull it back in. Although

1:51:47

Adam Curry: if the curry.com RSS feed, technically could be a

1:51:50

remote item What do you mean? If my if my identity was an RSS

1:51:58

feed? Am I Am I taking this too far now?

1:52:02

Dave Jones: Oh, I see. SAE like where's the link in the the link

1:52:06

in the tag goes to an RSS feed? Not

1:52:09

Adam Curry: Yeah, I would have eyes a person. I would have a

1:52:11

GUID. Yeah, Dave Jones: this is the I mean, this is this is SOP ml. Yeah.

1:52:18

Adam Curry: All over again. Back to freedom controller. Right?

1:52:21

Yes. Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay. One day

1:52:25

Adam Curry: One day, we know we do and I know eventually we'll

1:52:28

wind up there eventually we're all going to be freedom

1:52:30

controller. Yep. In a PWA

1:52:34

Dave Jones: in a PWA Jean being 2222 Again, thank you, Jamie

1:52:38

says Busuu I think I've heard Mitch talk about the indexing of

1:52:42

person tags being a problem for the pod for pod verse. I think

1:52:46

that may have to do with just the lack of a Gu Id like a sort

1:52:51

of a universal identifier for the person tag which I admit is

1:52:55

is something you know simplicity was the was the driving force of

1:53:01

the the early tags and if you have to have you know if you

1:53:05

have to think about those things boom, but we may need to revisit

1:53:07

that I agree. All right. Karen is a mere mortals podcast also

1:53:12

2222 Road ducks nice big, big one today. To found he says Just

1:53:17

to clarify Adam, it wouldn't be on the mere mortals podcast but

1:53:20

obviously would talk a lot about V for me. Oh,

1:53:23

Adam Curry: that's right. No, yes. No, I'd say that would be on the value for value podcast was mere mortals I

1:53:27

Dave Jones: got okay. I'm nowhere near ready to attend a

1:53:30

live interviews. Don't think I ever would want to actually that

1:53:33

seems like a nightmare of complex. Adam Curry: Oh my goodness, it's so easy for you Kira. And you're

1:53:38

a great conversationalist. You don't have to edit anything.

1:53:41

Yeah, yeah. I mean, next week Tina's out of town let's do it

1:53:45

next week. We'll and we'll do it live

1:53:48

Dave Jones: there you go. There's your practice around the

1:53:51

Chris You know 19 810 says through pod verse says 1981

1:53:55

boost for the year Trivial Pursuit came out my wife non

1:53:59

trivial pursuit with the answer of Adam curry tonight from

1:54:03

hearing this podcast on in the in the background often enough.

1:54:06

She had to teach her dad what a VJ was. Oh, okay.

1:54:10

Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, I'm a trivial pursuit question. This

1:54:12

happened a long time ago. That's right. Oh, are you Yeah, you

1:54:15

know you've got a made when your Trivial Pursuit question unless

1:54:17

it has something to do with your death Dave Jones: that's no good. Yeah. Karen again for the mere

1:54:27

mortals podcast. He says boosting as a test for the V for

1:54:29

V app show running through. Okay.

1:54:32

Adam Curry: Okay. Tests received and worked. They weren't five by

1:54:34

Dave Jones: five. Franco 10,000 sets. The song on a podcast was

1:54:39

from cruise box. All this music. Oh, switching technology stuff

1:54:44

makes me think about rebooting rock cast Italia.

1:54:47

Adam Curry: Cruise box. Dave Jones: What is that? Oh, the

1:54:50

Adam Curry: Oh, hold on Santa Cruz box.

1:54:53

Dave Jones: He's got a link here. Do you want me to get this? Yeah. Oh,

1:54:55

Adam Curry: send me the link. Are you kidding me? This is the song that I was singing that I couldn't find. You gotta keep

1:55:00

Didn't signal real quick. Yep, it was so but this was pointed

1:55:03

up when we had the pod that we had the podsafe Music Network

1:55:06

which was you know, pre V for V obviously, but see if this oh my

1:55:11

goodness, okay, you gotta gotta just listen to this for a second

1:55:18

oh my god, I can't believe I'm hearing this. This is from like,

1:55:23

2006 when we were thinking of rebooting the music industry, it

1:55:28

was all a practice run everybody Unknown: remember, way back last summer when mainstream radio was

1:55:38

such a fucking music nothing's funny. Clear Channel buggers

1:55:51

Adam Curry: here's the here's the hook Unknown: now you should have heard it on a rock and fucking

1:56:02

just download the podcast no one's gonna stop it. FCC to stick in

1:56:13

Adam Curry: the revolutions on I'm so happy I found that Oh, we

1:56:17

got to get that we got to get that up on value for value

1:56:20

someone reached out to was Lucas Lucas. Lucas I think who did

1:56:27

that song. Wow, man. Thank you. I needed to hear that.

1:56:32

Dave Jones: Did you get home did you get that bundle of ISOs I

1:56:35

say Adam Curry: yes. You mean grab bag of ISOs I don't even know I

1:56:39

don't even know what to use is so much. I haven't listened to

1:56:42

all of them yet. Dave Jones: AGIS we've done 150 episodes I went back and pulled

1:56:46

all the ISOs that we've played in the past we've used these

1:56:50

Adam Curry: yes yes my favorite was this one. I just got five

1:56:54

Satoshis Dave Jones: bundled that together for you because

1:57:01

sometimes on no agenda you Oh show up and you don't have any

1:57:05

so this is you break the glass. The handle and grab a randomizer

1:57:10

Unknown: Oh, I love this giving people power and expecting them

1:57:14

to be disciplined about it is completely insane. Yeah.

1:57:20

Adam Curry: Thank you. I like appreciate that. Dave Jones: Thanks, Franco. Appreciate that. Man. That's a

1:57:24

blast from the past comic strip Adam Curry: blogger areas delimiter limiter

1:57:29

Dave Jones: 30 3015. Through fountain he says. Now the

1:57:33

podcast index LLC team Dave and Adam. Get unplugged with my

1:57:38

Slavic bro John C. Dvorak and his multimillionaire pal Andrew

1:57:42

Horowitz. On DHA unplugged podcast, your weekly digest of

1:57:49

market antics, and economic musings. It's available at www

1:57:54

dot d h unplugged.com. Stay ahead of the market curve with d

1:57:59

h unplugged. Yo CSB.

1:58:02

Adam Curry: Thank you CSB. Oh, I love the HM plug. That's first

1:58:05

one of my most listens. Dave Jones: Yeah. In the the fact that he's still not valued

1:58:10

for value. Just you.

1:58:14

Adam Curry: I mean, they do donations. I know they do donations. Now. No. I mean, he keeps saying hey, I should do

1:58:21

that. But his eyes glaze over. I'll get to one.

1:58:24

Dave Jones: Is he still on? Feedburner? Yes. Yeah, that's

1:58:28

Adam Curry: the main problem. He's on Feedburner that's

1:58:30

exactly the problem. Dave Jones: He can go to podcast mirror now because they that's

1:58:34

that's the feed burner killer. Right?

1:58:36

Adam Curry: I'm going to forget it. I'm gonna suggest it to but

1:58:39

then he'll probably be like five bucks. Just stick it Yeah.

1:58:48

Dave Jones: Yeah. Is 27 F bombs

1:58:52

Unknown: on a podcast? Dave Jones: Basil fill at $25 Thanks, basil. Pod verse. $50

1:58:59

Thank you, Mitch. much, brother. Yeah. Lauren ball. $24.20 Thank

1:59:05

you, Lauren. At Michigan. $10. How Mitch? Christopher

1:59:09

hyperbaric $10 So Adam Curry: we need to forbid Mitch from from putting any

1:59:14

money in right now. He's quit his job to do this. Now. Save

1:59:17

it. Yeah. Three months come back in three months. Yeah, come back

1:59:22

in three months and three months? Yeah.

1:59:25

Dave Jones: Christopher Harbach. Hara Barak $10. Terry Keller $5

1:59:29

Chris Cohen. $5 Jeremy Kevin. All $10 Daymond Cassie Jack $15

1:59:36

Derek J Vickery. $21. Thank you, Derek and Paul Saltzman $22.22.

1:59:42

Thank you. Oh, Adam Curry: yes, thank you all very much for contributing value

1:59:45

back to the podcast time, talent or treasure. Obviously, most of

1:59:49

the people listening are contributing with time and

1:59:51

talent. The treasure you heard Dred Scott he says this is a

1:59:54

great way for me as a non non developer to still be able to

1:59:58

participate in the entire process. So we really appreciate

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2:00:36

us. Thank you so much for supporting podcasting. 2.02

2:00:39

hours on the nose, Dave Jones,

2:00:42

Dave Jones: I think we need to elite I think we need to play

2:00:44

this up talk. Clip,

2:00:47

Adam Curry: we can't leave without some mob talk. Dave Jones: It's a new version of a talk. Like it's not just

2:00:52

your straight normal talk, oh, this is sort of it starts

2:00:56

normal. It's a bad this is a clip about how podcast

2:01:01

advertising is all BS, it doesn't work okay. But then if

2:01:05

you notice towards the end, it begins to become like a sine

2:01:08

wave up talk where sine N and N and N and O okay.

2:01:15

Unknown: And I run the E commerce business but also all

2:01:19

of our growth marketing and had been there three and a half

2:01:21

years so pretty long time and I'm super excited to be getting

2:01:26

kind of back into the audio space after a while. I think for

2:01:30

the last call it eight years or so I've been at companies where

2:01:33

we've kind of been limited with budget and availability to grow

2:01:36

in channels. And I think we're at a time right now where even

2:01:40

if we don't have incremental budget I think all of us

2:01:43

probably feel pretty comfortable pulling from Facebook and and

2:01:46

reinvesting in other places. And so I'm super excited to be

2:01:49

working with this man oh

2:01:54

Adam Curry: man, that is a sine wave. It's like a very low hertz

2:01:57

though. Dave Jones: What it for it is happening everywhere.

2:02:02

Adam Curry: What company was this young woman speaking of?

2:02:05

Dave Jones: I don't remember. Don't remember she basically

2:02:09

said nothing works with it and nothing works. But Facebook has

2:02:12

Adam Curry: rollercoaster That's right. Eric P pace. Brother.

2:02:15

Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day. I

2:02:18

know it's a really tough time workwise it's busy and and for

2:02:23

giving up your lunch. I still feel bad that all you had chips

2:02:26

and onion dip. There you go and your hands are all greasy. And

2:02:30

now it's on your keyboard and as discussed I did have

2:02:33

Dave Jones: a beef shake though. wrangled one of those beef

2:02:37

shakes and Tredwell. Adam Curry: Nothing like beef shake. Thank you very much chat

2:02:41

room. Thank you boardroom for being here for podcasting. 2.0

2:02:44

our anniversary 150 episodes. Looking forward to the next one.

2:02:48

We come back next week. We'll do another board meeting right here

2:02:51

podcasting 2.0

2:03:09

Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast

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index.org for more information.

2:03:18

Adam Curry: We need to listen and love each other more.