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Adam Curry: podcasting 2.0 for December 8 2023, episode 158

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sangoma, Jager. Oh hello, everybody. Welcome to the

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official board meeting for podcasting 2.0 This is where it

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all goes down. In fact, we are the only boardroom that doesn't

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do interview predictions because we are in the future. I'm Adam

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curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country and Alabama.

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The man who fights the scrapers every day like a junkyard dog.

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Say hello to my friend on the other end, the one and only Mr.

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Dave Jones.

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Dave Jones: Like Junkyard Dog junkyard, new Junkyard Dog, man,

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Adam Curry: Junkyard Dog, junkyard dog. Dave Jones: This just, you caught me off guard because I

0:40

just realized I didn't tweet it into what you said. You said rip

0:45

it. I know. But I had this right after I fell out of my chair. So

0:48

I'm not Adam Curry: discombobulated. Dave has eaten so many beef

0:53

milkshakes, and he's breaking chairs. Now. It's crazy.

0:55

Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, like it leaned over to get the shake,

0:58

and it was just like, pop and all sudden, I was like, fighting

1:01

this and to not land in the floor. Adam Curry: I wish I wish I'd been recording it because that's

1:05

exactly what a sight and it was like, oh, conclusion. conclave

1:07

was like this big, clanking, clanking crash. And it was very

1:11

Dave Jones: interesting. Lots of stuff happened before the show.

1:14

You sound terrible. Yeah,

1:16

Adam Curry: yes. Yeah, we're gonna what do we have? I'm gonna

1:19

say RSB will it be the code Come on, come on big money. Big

1:27

money. Big money. Bola Ebola. Black? See got black? Yeah, I

1:34

think it's either. I mean, we went to Minneapolis for no

1:38

agenda meet 130 people was fantastic. In and out one one

1:41

day. Really cool. Fly. Yeah, well, I didn't fly myself. We

1:46

flew southwest. Okay. And it was dynamite. But you know, you're

1:51

shaking 130 hands and you're taking selfies. I'm gonna say

1:55

that's where you can possibly get some kind of diseased human

1:59

resource breathing down my neck. Either that or just the

2:02

airplane? I don't know. I'm trying not to get to sick.

2:04

That's the main thing. Dave Jones: Cuz you know, are you what's the what? What are

2:09

you haven't been flying lately? No, notice this.

2:13

Adam Curry: Now we flew to Houston. Yeah, I haven't had any

2:17

destinations. Really? Yeah, I mean, Houston. Houston would

2:21

have been a good one. But I you know, I had the pastor and his

2:25

wife. So we had someone else fly us in a little bit bigger plane.

2:30

Still Still turboprop. You know, I be honest with you, Dave. I'm

2:36

59 I fly with my buddy. Mitch, who's my periodontist?

2:42

Dave Jones: Yeah, it's because you bought his planes got bought?

2:44

Adam Curry: Yeah, base. And, and you know, we're flying out to

2:48

Dallas. And just the amount of I mean, I can fly I can I can do

2:52

all of this. The amount of traffic and stuff and the

2:56

attentiveness and, you know, the understanding of the situational

3:00

awareness of any airport, I would go to, I mean, you're

3:03

still going to we're going to Houston or Dallas, even San

3:07

Antonio, I mean, it's all going to be within these areas that

3:10

are heavily congested, lots of airports, lots of traffic. And

3:13

if you screw up, you know, which can be a hesitation when the air

3:16

controller asks something, you know, you get put in the penalty

3:19

box fly 20 minutes that way, we'll talk to you later. You

3:22

know, it's really Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, they got they got a

3:25

lot going on. You know, they got all kinds of, I'm slow. You

3:28

know, I'm always going to be slower than than any of the big

3:31

boys. So I'm just thinking, you know, maybe I should just have

3:35

someone else fly. It's better that way. It's just it's a

3:39

little much. You know, I I'm pretty good with the with the

3:42

audio mixer. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's 45 years. I can do that.

3:47

You know, I'll just do boosted ground balls instead of flying.

3:52

Dave Jones: Yeah, make a career change. Yeah. Is, are you? I

3:56

mean, how bad is your illness? Are you? Are you feverish?

3:59

Adam Curry: Uh, yeah. I mean, I was coughing all night. My

4:01

throat hurts. My body aches. That's about it. So I know. Oh,

4:07

you might have COVID Yeah, mind, but I'm not going to test.

4:10

That's fine. Dave Jones: Don't do. Don't do testing around here anymore. For

4:15

any No, no. Adam Curry: Do we have home kits but I'm not I'm not going to

4:19

touch it. I'm just, you know, give me some Advil. I'm good to

4:21

go. Advil, the Dave Jones: the, the PDF. The pediatrician literally told us

4:27

like a year ago, they're like now we don't really test for

4:29

COVID anymore because it's it screws up people's school

4:32

schedule. Adam Curry: Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, it's been a very

4:38

powerful week in podcasting. A lot of interesting articles that

4:42

have come out, based upon the news, which is this

4:46

Unknown: one out of every six employees of Spotify won't be

4:49

around next year, the company's making those deep cuts to its

4:51

payroll as it looks to cut expenses. top executives blame

4:55

higher interest rates saying that they make borrowing for

4:58

capital expenditures more expensive. The affected

5:00

employees will receive several months severance. The cut

5:03

follows two previous layoffs this year, a total of 800

5:06

employees were let go. Now.

5:09

Adam Curry: I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we were

5:12

talking about that it's like they have no capital, that the

5:15

cost of capital is too expensive because of the you know, the

5:19

free money riders oversee exactly what we've been saying

5:21

for a whole year, for a whole year.

5:24

Dave Jones: And yeah, yeah, it's worth I think it's worth talking

5:27

about. Because we've been using this term, the free money is

5:31

gone. And, you know, people have been talking about this. I

5:34

think, one is some article a while back used the term, like

5:38

the dumb money is, is gone or something like that.

5:40

Adam Curry: I wouldn't say it was dumb money. It was just there was free money. I mean, it was free, when it's free money,

5:45

then you can take big bets on stuff. But

5:48

Dave Jones: specifically the debt like the details of what

5:51

you know, what it means when to say that the free money is gone

5:55

is basically this is the way this works is when you know when

6:01

interest rates go up. Basically, US Treasuries become more

6:07

attractive than risky bets, because you have you have US

6:12

Treasuries paying in specifically treasuries, paying

6:15

5%. Plus, investors redirect all their cat, other capital, or

6:21

their all their free cash that is available for investing, they

6:24

redirect that into a sure thing. Yeah. I mean, if you can get a

6:27

guaranteed 5% or more on a treasury bill. Yeah. Then why in

6:34

the world, would you would you do? Are you going to put any of

6:37

that money into Spotify or some crazy startup? Hell no.

6:40

Adam Curry: But also, people need to remember the Spotify was

6:43

not an initial public offering in the truest sense of the word.

6:47

They didn't raise capital, they went to they just appeared on

6:50

the on the stock market. So you know, it was what is it reverse

6:56

listing or direct listing? I think they call it so there was

6:58

no underwriter that, you know, that had all this, you know,

7:02

that had basically sold shares and got all this extra money,

7:05

they had money, which they had raised, that privately in

7:08

subsequent rounds, when money was very, very cheap. Now, their

7:12

business model will never make them a very successful company,

7:16

because their business model is owned by the publishers and

7:22

labels. They own. They own most of the stock. So that I saw

7:27

something like, yeah, Spotify is owned by China. No, no, no, no,

7:32

that's not true. No, it's not true. Spotify is owned by music

7:36

insiders. And it's, it's just a pass through. It's a pass

7:40

through from you, the the audience to them. And Spotify

7:46

that Oh, guys, you got to make it work. And and, you know,

7:50

Spotify Dave Jones: is the music labels. I mean, yes. Yeah. What did it

7:54

it's similar? You know, I started thinking about it this

7:57

week. It's similar to Hulu. Hulu was basically the big

8:01

broadcasters. They're like, you know, they came together and did

8:05

this essentially joint joint investment. With it, I think

8:09

it's mostly they've a lot of the pulled out now. And it's mostly

8:13

Disney left holding the bag. But initially, Hulu was always

8:17

buddy. It was everybody. Yeah, everybody went in together so

8:20

that there would be this sort of common marketplace for streaming

8:25

television. It helped them to have like a common store for

8:29

digital storefront, because they didn't have to build everything

8:32

themselves, they could just pump their content over there. And

8:36

then they were done. And this, that's essentially what Spotify

8:39

is for the music labels. It's universal, Sony and his the the,

8:46

the big three, essentially, they they just have a common

8:49

storefront where they, where it's a one stop shop for people

8:52

to go and get their strange streaming music. And that

8:54

happens to be Spotify. Adam Curry: So the idea that they had, just to review was

8:59

let's expand, here's all this free content. Let's take that.

9:03

And you know, let's have some of our own shows. And then they

9:06

went off the rails and they they had McKinsey, I think McKinsey

9:11

interview a lot of people they wrote a whole strategy, a white

9:14

paper, which never got a copy of that they promised I would get

9:16

it. And I said no, don't do this is not a good idea. This is just

9:20

not not a good idea. And but what they did, is they created a

9:28

huge hype in around podcasting, which was already on the way up

9:33

because of great content from the 2016 Cereal podcast. This is

9:39

what got people interested in again at that at the height of

9:42

streaming when everybody was binging and showing up at the

9:45

office on Monday morning, you know that their job was on the

9:48

floor. Now all sudden, you had to wait until the next week to

9:52

listen to this very exciting true crime drama, which you

9:56

know, that's a very exciting content format. So When they

10:00

started shelling out the money, the end buying up, you know,

10:04

companies that had no profits gimlet, etc. Ringer. They were

10:09

in all these companies were in trouble. But it was big money.

10:12

It was you know, hundreds of millions of dollars Joe Rogan.

10:15

We still don't know exactly how much it was or, but okay, let's

10:19

just say it's the purported $2 million $200 million. And now in

10:23

that in that, that started the whole frenzy, and everybody

10:25

went, Oh, this is great. Fantastic. We're good to go. You

10:29

know, that would that came. You know, the typical, the people

10:33

who had been scraping by gimlet now all sudden, they wanted to

10:36

have, you know, $150,000 year salaries. The money was flowing,

10:41

the money was cheap. And now the inverse has happened. You know,

10:44

it's like Sorry, now we're cutting everything. Now. Podcasting sucks. Now, it's no good. It's, you know, AI is all

10:50

we're talking about. But I do want to take us back to last

10:55

October 2022. This is the head of talk verticals. I think those

11:02

this was the presentation, I'm going to say that. We probably

11:05

got this from pod news. Weekly Review. I'm not sure I know,

11:10

James definitely linked to, you know, to the to the investor

11:13

conference. I think that's what it was. And here's here is how

11:17

Spotify was thinking just a little over two years or one

11:21

year ago. Unknown: Think about it. Podcasting has been around for

11:25

almost two decades, and it's remained largely unchanged.

11:28

Mainly because of the limitations of RSS. We've been

11:32

able to replace RSS for on platform distribution, which

11:36

means that podcasts created on our platform are no longer held

11:39

back by this outdated technology. This has opened up a

11:43

new world of opportunity to add features and formats to the

11:46

podcast listening experience that have never been possible

11:48

before. So Spotify is now not only differentiated by our

11:52

catalogue of content, but also by delivering a truly superior

11:56

product for podcast listeners and creators.

11:59

Adam Curry: I would wager to say that didn't materialize anything

12:03

that was superior. Dave Jones: That was actually my clip. I remember that, oh,

12:08

maybe. Well, then Adam Curry: here's when we pulled this other one another

12:11

Unknown: way we've been able to innovate on the format. We've

12:14

made podcasts more interactive, finally enabling a deeper, more

12:18

intimate connection between creators and their fans. One of

12:22

our favorite things about podcasting is the unique

12:25

connection it enables between creators and listeners. It's

12:28

intimate show, voices are directly in listeners ears. But

12:32

until now, podcasting has been a one way street creators publish

12:36

shows and their audiences Listen, traditionally, RSS has

12:40

been limited to anonymized, aggregated analytics. And even

12:43

those are limited to what can be determined from IP addresses.

12:46

There you go. Yeah, because of these limitations, fans have

12:49

never had a good way to reach their favorite creators

12:51

directly. Adam Curry: No, that's no, it's because of these limitations.

12:55

Wasn't that creators and I have a problem with the term

12:58

creators, creators couldn't it's not they couldn't reach their

13:01

audiences effectively is that you couldn't track audience

13:03

members and advertise. And then you were totally able to do it,

13:07

and you still couldn't pull it off. But Unknown: now we're changing that we're changing. Our first way of

13:12

addressing this was with q&a and polls, both text based questions

13:16

that can be posed by the show's creators and surface listeners

13:19

in the Spotify app. These interactive features make it

13:22

easy for listeners to engage with the people behind their

13:25

favorite podcasts, and for creators to hear from their

13:27

audience directly on Spotify. These features are available now

13:32

to all anchor creators around the world. We've heard from many

13:36

creators, the q&a and polls have been crucial in helping them

13:39

develop engaged audiences that keep coming back for more

13:42

crucial Yeah, crucial. And this is just the beginning of our

13:45

interactive tools. For podcasts, we're really excited to

13:47

introduce lots of new ways for creators and their fans to

13:50

connect with each other. Adam Curry: So I am so happy that we just stuck to our guns,

13:55

we stuck to RSS. Now this doesn't mean that we solve any,

13:59

any money making issues per se. We don't have any solutions for

14:03

advertising. In fact, we built out value for value, which does

14:08

work for people who dive into it. And I think over time,

14:12

you'll see that value for value will have its hits, real hits. I

14:17

mean, I consider no agenda to be a hit. I consider the show to be

14:20

a hit now we can't live off of it. But our project is running

14:25

off of it. That's for sure that's a hit you know, that's

14:28

that's good. It's hope betting against RSS is just not a good

14:34

idea betting against the the general idea of distributing

14:39

your podcast far and wide through RSS is just again, not a

14:43

good idea. Now, here's the problem. You know, the

14:48

advertising market is finicky. You know, what is the hot thing

14:53

right now? So podcasting was the hot thing, you know, they were

14:56

40 $50,000 per spot. Go went out um, as I was reading in this,

15:02

Adam Davidson, The Rise and Fall of podcasting, I mean that $100

15:06

CPMs Okay. And you know now that podcasting is kind of falling

15:12

out of favor because hey, Spotify can make it work that

15:15

firing people it's no good. You know, the media buyers there,

15:19

they're going to they're spending the same money on Tik

15:22

Tok, or wherever in anywhere but here, which, of course, is why

15:25

we have this, the podcast industrial complex. I'm leading

15:29

right to you, Dave, you can see it. The podcast industrial

15:32

complex is, is touting video as the only way forward and

15:38

audiences have changed and oh, no, we have to stay. You know,

15:41

we have to be flexible now. No. And by the way, this week in

15:47

tech, complete video, all these shows are video yet, and I am

15:54

sad, you know, here's Leo had to let three people go who had been

15:59

there for for like 1515 years. And he says here. Unfortunately,

16:06

our medium podcasting has suffered economically since the

16:09

beginning of COVID. As the number of podcasts grew

16:12

exponentially, the number of advertisers dwindled, and with

16:16

it, our revenue. At one time, we had as many as 30 people on

16:20

Twitch staff, not including show hosts, producing more than 30

16:23

unique shows today, the staff is half that size. And we produce

16:27

half the number of shows all video, by the way. So get out of

16:31

here with your video argument is just bowl and they put it on

16:34

YouTube and all it's not working. Because it's out of

16:38

favor. You know, we weren't there. I guarantee you in some

16:43

time, it could be five years from now. I mean, this is almost

16:46

a repeat of when YouTube was purchased, or was it a billion

16:50

dollars or $2 billion. And everybody always gotta have you

16:53

gotta have video. I had a company my my VCs were literally

16:57

saying, You gotta have video, it's got to be video. So we did

16:59

video? And did it make a difference? No. No?

17:04

Dave Jones: So did do you think video? And what did VT was

17:11

video? How instrumental was video in the demise of pod show?

17:17

Of me view? The heck if you had not gone into video, would it?

17:22

Would you have survived longer? No,

17:24

Adam Curry: no, because it was an advertising based model.

17:27

That's why I left. It's like you can't make this work. You can't

17:31

make it work. Because CPMs are a race to the bottom always. It's

17:37

always a race to the bottom. So you wind up with you know,

17:40

cheap, crappy content. And particularly if you're producing

17:42

video, it gets very expensive very quickly, or at least

17:45

expensive in in human resource cycles. So it just doesn't work.

17:50

Now what will happen, and history repeats or rhymes, we

17:56

will see a another show that will come out of nowhere that

17:59

people are going to be crazy about that. It'll be audio and

18:02

they're going to love it and people will start listening or

18:05

it'll start being hyped again. Now, will it be advertising has

18:10

a place in podcasting? It sure does. But it's not this inserted

18:16

ads and all this stuff. It's none of that. No, bridesmaid

18:21

magazine. That's how I see it.

18:24

Dave Jones: But you've got to when it comes to advertising,

18:26

you have a sort of baseline of like brand, what you could call

18:31

like brand awareness advertising, that's just never

18:33

gonna go away. I mean, brands have to, like if you're Johnson

18:39

and Johnson, you've got to just advertise on a consistent basis

18:43

to maintain to maintain public awareness of your brand. Yeah, I

18:48

Adam Curry: don't see a Johnson and Johnson ad anywhere in

18:50

podcasting. Not a single one. No,

18:53

Dave Jones: but there's some there's that out there and that

18:56

stuff is just always going to be there. But it to some degree. I

18:59

mean, it'll fluctuate a little bit, but there's that back sort

19:03

of background radiation level of brand awareness advertising,

19:07

where it's just like, Okay, we, we just got to do this always.

19:10

But then there's the, you know, the the actual campaigns where

19:13

they push specific things, and they do and they stick their

19:17

neck out advertising wise, those, you know, those are taken

19:21

a hit. That's what you know, that's what people are the,

19:25

like, spot. And there's also the thing like specifically with

19:28

Spotify, they went to, like during the pandemic they went up

19:32

from like, they doubled in size 5000 to like 10,000 employees.

19:37

This This was never sustainable. I mean, when, when, when, when

19:43

tray, when Treasuries are paying next to nothing Yeah, there you

19:46

go. Investors have to put their money somewhere to get a return.

19:51

And one might as well put it into podcasting. But But when

19:54

that's no longer the case, and the script flips and you can

19:56

make guaranteed money somewhere else. You're not going to put

19:58

your money into podcasting because it's a joke. So when the

20:01

money like when the money dried up, they had no choice but to

20:04

reduce headcount. There's this the in the stock price bump,

20:08

they got I mean, that's like a, you could call that like a

20:10

survival bounce basically the stock price, they it reflects

20:15

the fact that being profitable means they just won't go

20:19

bankrupt. Like that. It's not like they're going to be

20:23

gangbusters. It's not like they're going to make tons of

20:26

money. It's just Okay, now they're not going to die.

20:31

Adam Curry: It was interesting, because while I was gonna say,

20:34

you know, what happened is the same thing. Excuse me, the same

20:37

thing that happened with blogging is people thought,

20:39

well, I got a blog, I have readers, therefore, I shouldn't

20:41

be making money. No, it's just not true. I mean, I spent 16

20:46

years with the Vortec, building up an audience. And the first

20:50

four years were not sustainable. You know, we took risks, to get

20:57

it to where it is, and it was much earlier, you know, the, we

21:02

didn't have the tools. There's a lot of things we didn't have. We

21:05

were also building the awareness of podcasting. And you know,

21:08

we've never done video voice that under the radar, and

21:11

anybody can go listen to our donation segments, and you'll

21:13

hear that we are able to sustain two families with kids who went

21:17

through school and we're doing okay, yeah, it was not Joe Rogan

21:20

money. But that's okay. You can have a book, you can have a

21:25

message you can have a church he had, there's so many ways that

21:28

podcasting is beneficial to humanity that just doesn't

21:32

involve this noise, which is numbers and ad rates. And that's

21:37

just over for now. It's over. And all we're seeing now is the

21:42

is the last jerky moves, you know, like the the corpse is

21:46

still twitching on the ground. And that's, let's go to video

21:50

because that's where everybody is. You got to be everywhere.

21:53

No, no, Dave Jones: no, no before the defibrillator pads.

21:58

Adam Curry: They're not going to help. They're not going to help. And I, you know, I wish everybody lots of success. But I

22:03

think certainly our message is Britain pretty consistent in

22:07

this. No, it's just it doesn't work. It doesn't work.

22:12

Dave Jones: You know, the listen to podcast weekly review, or

22:18

pardon us weekly review. And they were talking about the this

22:22

2026 float that that Netflix that mean, excuse me that

22:27

Spotify supposedly did that now that's, you know, looming that

22:31

I'm sorry. Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. They have to pay back like $2 billion or

22:34

something. Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. And that's, you know, I'm sure I'm

22:37

sure if for sure. That's in there. But one thing that was

22:39

interesting is the A saw this phrase, in the same article by

22:50

Ben Thompson, where he mentioned that in 2018, Spotify had

22:57

renegotiated their royalty rates with the major with the music

23:02

labels. Yes. And they rate the deal was, according to him that

23:08

the renegotiated lower rate was in exchange for, quote,

23:14

guaranteed subscriber growth, unquote, which I

23:19

Adam Curry: thought I haven't read. I haven't read the piece I'll have to read. Okay. I went looking for confirmation

23:24

Dave Jones: of this. And I found a few other articles that

23:27

mentioned the same thing from that period of time it was it

23:31

was coverage. One was from NPR, where it covered where it

23:35

covered the renegotiation at the time it happened. It mentions

23:38

the same thing. And there was another analysis piece that

23:41

happened around that same time, they mentioned the same thing

23:43

that basically they had made promises to the record labels

23:48

that they would have a specific subscriber growth rate in order

23:53

to get those lower royalties. And if the royal if their growth

23:56

rate ever went down, dropped below that, that the royalties

24:00

would go up. Yeah. You know, that puts a different twist on a

24:06

lot of the podcast exclusives. They did like Rogen, the Rogen

24:11

stuff in that regard. Yeah, it wasn't an advertising play.

24:15

Sure. But it also makes you think, Okay, well, if we can't

24:22

meet subscriber growth demands, pulling in a large, popular

24:26

exclusive podcast. Adam Curry: That's, that's what saved them probably.

24:30

Dave Jones: Yeah, you get to, let's say you pay out 200

24:33

million over over 10 years, or something like that, whoever

24:37

whatever the contract was, if that maintains your ability to

24:40

have lower royalty rates that could pay for itself easily.

24:43

Adam Curry: There's also a cultural problem at Spotify. And

24:49

if you recall, I wish I had the clip. I probably don't have any

24:52

more. Let me see. It was the CT of this. There were all these

24:56

music artists and we seek to Spotify I wish I had that all

25:01

these music artists and they were bitching and moaning and

25:04

complaining about, you know, that they weren't getting paid

25:07

or whatever. And the CT, I think was the CTO. He says, you know,

25:12

you really should be happy that we're putting that we have this

25:16

platform for you. Dave Jones: I remember that. Yeah, we I think we played a

25:19

clip and yeah, I wish I could find it. Adam Curry: And, and it just showed, you know, because

25:25

initially, Spotify was a if I if I recall, it was a peer to peer

25:30

it was kind of like a legal Napster. Initially, it had a

25:33

peer to peer distribution system. There was something in

25:37

there that changed later. But they've never really, they've

25:41

always thought of themselves as hey, we're, we're the big

25:44

powerful Spotify, and you should just be happy that we let you

25:47

ride along on our coattails. It's just it's just the, the DNA

25:51

of the company. I'm not saying it's good or bad. But you know,

25:55

so there's no one gets any, this is not going to be any love

25:58

going back to them now that they have problems.

26:00

Dave Jones: Well, I think they inherited that attitude, probably from the music labels because the music or the music

26:08

labels are that is maybe people arts don't appreciate how big

26:19

and serious of a business, the music, stuff that music rights

26:23

holders stuff is if you look I saw the other day you posted

26:29

something about Rush. Rush is catalog being sold new happened

26:33

back in like 2014 or so. There's a rush sold their music catalog

26:37

to this company called ole ole is owned, I think majority owned

26:46

by the Ontario teachers pension fund. Yeah, so yeah. Big

26:51

investment. Yeah, the entire entire Ontario teachers pension

26:55

fund now owns lots of music royalty, and music catalogs.

27:01

This is huge business a hundreds and hundreds of millions of

27:04

dollars. That is owned by pension funds, retirement plans.

27:09

The like, these are serious people with high value assets

27:14

that must make a return. They're not playing around. No, no,

27:19

Adam Curry: no, exactly. Especially if they control it

27:22

know if they can if they have control. Absolutely. But this

27:25

has been going on for a long time. And David Bowie famously

27:28

sold his rights, you know, way back a Shoe Man was in the late

27:31

90s for 50 million when 50 million was 50 million. So

27:37

anyway, long story short, we need to reset what's not we I

27:44

think we're actually pretty good. I think value for value is

27:48

starting to show. Benefit. I think that the value for value

27:54

music is where we have a lot so much room to grow. We can we can

27:59

absolutely supplant radio, I mean, radios got the numbers on

28:04

radio are humongous. But it's also expensive to operate. I

28:07

heart I heart, which owns a lot of stations, not a very healthy

28:11

company financially. And you know, it's only going to get

28:14

worse, Sirius XM, they're going to have to shoot birds in this

28:16

space. Again, these things do expire. Now, I don't think

28:20

interest rates are coming down anytime soon. I don't either. So

28:23

it's going it's going to be tough for a lot of this. And as

28:27

long Dave Jones: as that rate dropped yesterday to 3.7 on the wrong,

28:32

that'd be Adam Curry: the opposite. They say exactly the opposite of what

28:34

they want. Yeah. So it's so it's so crooked in the world that the

28:40

Federal Reserve who prints the US dollar is happy when more

28:44

people are out of work. It's amazing. Yeah,

28:47

Dave Jones: that's what they're cheering Adam Curry: they're cheering for it. Yes, exactly.

28:51

Dave Jones: I brought I brought clips from the media roundtable

28:54

speaking of radios, because a couple of radio guys know now

28:57

Adam Curry: this, I heard this. So I'll be interested in going

29:00

clips up you picked. But this is one of these guys is the

29:04

professor who teaches podcast does he teach podcasting? What

29:08

is his actual? What is his course that he teaches? Is audio

29:16

podcast, Dave Jones: podcasting or something like that? I'm not

29:19

sure he's the podcast, professor. I don't know. Adam Curry: I mean, I've sparred with him on on Twitter a long

29:25

time ago. I'm like, What is wrong with you?

29:32

Dave Jones: I'm sure he's a great guy. I'm not impressed by

29:34

his analysis. I mean, I'll just put my cards on the table. I

29:38

mean, which sounds silly because he's a radio veteran. And I'm,

29:42

you know, I'm just an IT guy. But, I mean, I think I can make

29:48

the point that some of the analysis is just it has some

29:54

fundamental contradictions that make me question the whole

29:58

thing. So let's let's just start off by the basic thesis. And I

30:05

want to I want to drive a point here, that so they start off by,

30:10

he mentioned, well, let me set it up. So this is the media

30:13

roundtable show. This is Oxford road advertising agency. And

30:18

this is Dan Granger, I believe is his name interviewing Steven

30:21

Goldstein. And Steven Goldstein is the guy who's a professor at

30:25

NYU teaches a class on podcasting. But he's also an

30:28

advertising guy. So these just the context here is these are

30:31

two advertising guys that came into the podcasting world from

30:40

radio according to what they have described themselves. So

30:43

they his so Goldstein, I think, had a hand a pretty big hand in

30:50

the study a few months ago that said that most people listen to

30:55

their podcasts on YouTube. He Adam Curry: is his amplify media, I think is his that's his

31:01

thing. Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, advertising is what is

31:05

advertised? Yes. Advertising. Yeah. So they he is advocating

31:09

for moving what he's saying moving beyond the RSS feed,

31:15

Unknown: once a podcast, because I think that's where we are at

31:18

this moment. This takes us up to today. You know, does it have to

31:23

have that RSS feed? Or is it likely to be something else? And

31:28

I think about this, and we'll talk about this probably quite a

31:31

bit. I think about this. Outside of podcast terms, I think about

31:37

things like NBC, they used to feed shows to affiliates around

31:41

the country. That's not the business they're in anymore. And

31:44

weirdly, they used to pay the affiliates. Now the affiliates

31:47

pay them. But their content is on apps and streams and it's all

31:52

over the place. They're going to do whatever it takes, including

31:56

YouTube, to get audience. And that's where we are in

32:00

podcasting. Adam Curry: That's where you are in podcasting, bro. And I just

32:06

want to point out, you know, Steven B said, you know, before

32:08

the music is so small drop in the bucket, that's not the

32:11

point. All the numbers do what he did with this with this guy

32:15

is going to be saying, all of the you got to be the biggest

32:18

you got to have more, you got to grow your show. No, no, that's

32:23

that's over, that is all going to be over. Nothing will be

32:26

sustainable anymore. There's too much media. There's too many

32:29

channels, too many streamers. There's too much out there. That

32:33

CPMs is no artificial inventory shortage that you can create.

32:41

Because you you can just create as much as you want. It's a race

32:44

to the bottom. So that is over. But the people who are in V for

32:48

V music right now, they have never seen any money from

32:52

Spotify, or any of the streamers now that they're seeing, okay,

32:55

100 bucks, 500 bucks. They're ecstatic. That's the point.

33:00

That's where we're going. You don't need to have, you don't

33:04

need to have the biggest numbers. You don't need to be

33:06

the top of the leaderboard or the rancor. It's just not

33:09

necessary in this new model. Well,

33:12

Dave Jones: I mean, Harvey Harvey has said, right off the

33:14

bat, I've never I've never watched NBC on an app. Like,

33:18

yeah, that's there's these these examples of a you know, they're,

33:24

these are broadcast television, and now they're doing streaming

33:26

and now they're doing, you know, an app, those those, that's a

33:30

terrible example because those those streaming apps lose money.

33:34

They're all bleeding money, left and right. They're not making

33:37

anything this Adam Curry: Steven Goldstein, he's really a radio guy, the way

33:40

I see it. He's a professor and a creator of the business of

33:45

podcasting course. But yeah, that's that's the Steinhardt

33:49

School of Culture Education, Human Development, okay.

33:53

Dave Jones: He goes on to clip to talking to talking about chasing audience which is good, can we

33:56

Unknown: be more pliable and so I would like to think that we

34:00

can move past the RSS feed and be more nimble and focus on

34:06

garnering audience wherever it comes from. Adam Curry: Does this guy teach how to make good podcasts or

34:11

just how to get ghost collect to collect audience members like

34:16

their like their, you know, tarot cards or something?

34:20

Dave Jones: was about that it's about advertising in this, you

34:23

know, I've been trying to make this point from for a while now

34:29

is that there is a what you would, how would you describe

34:34

this there is a there, there's a separation in these are

34:41

advertising people they've already made the transition from

34:46

broadcast radio, to podcasting. There's no loyalty in these in

34:53

these people to a particular medium. They are advertising.

34:57

They will that when you're in advertising You fought you go to

35:01

whichever medium is necessary to sell advertising. Yes, that's,

35:06

that's different than the actual pod podcast industry that is

35:12

fundamental to the architecture of podcasting. And that's why,

35:16

you know, we've we've said many times there is no quote unquote,

35:19

podcast industry. Because what the pot when people refer to the

35:22

podcast industry, they talk about podcasting as if it's some

35:26

hole, but it's not it's actually very fragmented. You have, what

35:31

you have underneath podcasting is, Ace is a set of profitable

35:38

hosting companies, Buzzsprout, arsons, DICOM, blueberry. And

35:44

you have you have them as the substrate upon which the content

35:51

is distributed through RSS. And then overlaid on top of that you

35:55

have a bunch of ad digital advertising people in those, the

36:02

point that I've been trying to make is that those two things

36:06

are at Fun, fundamentally, kind of at odds with each other. They

36:10

see they you see that RSS isn't going to give you what you want,

36:14

as an advertising person. Right? You're just going to bail out

36:17

and go to YouTube. Yeah, I mean, like, if you click three, he

36:22

talks about the, the flexibility, we need more

36:25

flexibility than RSS. And that's what he's always talking about.

36:28

Unknown: But I think we as people in the podcast space,

36:33

need to be what do I want to show we need to be more

36:38

flexible? Adam Curry: I love podcast space. Even the podcast makes

36:41

bro. Yeah, Dave Jones: so he says, in podcasting, we need more, we

36:45

need to be more flexible than RSS. Okay, keep that word in

36:49

mind. This was talking about the, with the some of the

36:53

fundamental contradictions of the things that are being said.

36:58

So with that in mind, he talks about in in, in clip four about

37:02

what is RSS well, and as you think about the reason that it's

37:06

even a discussion, can you just break down for some of the

37:10

audience why an RSS feed is a material factor and how we even

37:14

decide where to draw our lines? Sure,

37:17

Unknown: well, RSS stands for Really Simple Syndication. And

37:21

that's primarily what it is, is very flexible.

37:25

Adam Curry: But we got to be more flexible. Dave Jones: Yes, we got to be more flexible, but RSS is flex.

37:30

So this, this becomes, you know, there's a certain amount of word

37:33

salad that happens here. And it's this this fundamental

37:39

difference here between the, the, the podcast between the

37:45

average digital advertising people, and the actual people

37:49

who are loyal to ad dollars and brand brands, and the podcast,

37:57

infrastructure and substrate, people who are loyal to RSS and

38:01

podcasting, Adam Curry: we were like substrate scale, that's good.

38:04

That's, that's a sexy word substrate substrate

38:07

Dave Jones: seems like an old movie from like, the fifth

38:10

Adam Curry: pod subs. Dave Jones: They and this, this these, one had the, the

38:17

substrate infrastructure people have they have a loyalty to what

38:21

podcasting is at its foundation. That all sort of comes into play

38:27

in clip five here, Unknown: it is not dynamic. It doesn't come with a lot of data.

38:33

A lot of advertisers is you know, far better than I used to

38:36

dealing with rich data environments. And podcasting has

38:41

some of that, but it doesn't natively have all of that. But

38:45

that is what this industry has been built on. And yet, you

38:50

know, I don't I don't know why it can't or shouldn't evolve.

38:57

Adam Curry: So how come Spotify couldn't do it? Spotify had rich

39:00

data. They knew they knew exactly what people were

39:04

listening to. And how long why couldn't Spotify make it? Why

39:07

couldn't they pull it off? Because this clearly, it's not

39:10

just the RSS feed, it's got to be a whole collection of things.

39:14

Dave Jones: Yeah. And that and that's the that's a great point.

39:17

Because you have what what they're saying is one thing and

39:21

what's reality is something different because it's like,

39:24

well, advertisers are used to rich data. So do you mean rich

39:29

data in the sense of Nielsen ratings, because that's not very

39:33

Adam Curry: rich. Now they're talking about total total

39:36

spying, connecting you with your friends that you're on the same

39:41

network Bluetooth proximity apps that are tracking your your

39:45

finger moves, this is the kind of data you know, data brokers,

39:48

this is the kind of stuff they're used to. In

39:51

Dave Jones: the only people that make big money in that game are

39:53

Google. Nobody else may and Facebook fails but he else makes

39:58

humongous money in the ad word in that arena, the the

40:03

television arena where data is not rich at all that people are

40:07

making are making money there. That's that's real. That's real

40:12

money being spent. And there's no there's no data. I don't just

40:15

watch that on the air and on the air. And I have to report it to

40:17

you in a coupon book. Adam Curry: You know what's interesting, at any moment, any

40:23

podcast, app developer, Marco fountain, anybody could create

40:30

could put all kinds of tracking stuff in their app, which would,

40:35

which would give that app a huge advantage? Over you know, over

40:41

everybody else, and you can put the SDKs into your app. It's

40:46

amazing. You can do a replay Exactly. See what what somebody

40:50

was what they were tapping on their screen. They'll know if

40:53

they're hold, if they're listening in bed, if they're walking, if they're driving in their car, all this stuff is

40:57

very normal for apps. Nobody does that, to my knowledge, or

41:01

certainly is not selling that rich data. Why not? What is it

41:06

about the substrate people that we just don't do that? See, I'm

41:10

serious. This is very interesting. Is Are there no

41:14

shysters out there? Who would want to do this?

41:16

Dave Jones: I think it's because if I'm gonna stick my neck out,

41:19

and guess I think it's because we sort of inherently know in

41:24

the back of our mind that if we did that, it would be a one shot

41:29

deal. And then your audience hates you. Yeah. Take the Money

41:37

and Run option. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because you because

41:40

as soon as you do that, to your to your customer base, they're

41:43

out. They're not you. It's you've changed the narrative on

41:47

them. And they're not they're not going to I mean, they're not

41:50

going to get it. Adam Curry: I see almost every week someone yelling at me, what

41:53

is this podcasting? 2.0 these apps give me ads. I know, bro,

41:58

that's the podcast, you're listening to? That. That's a guy

42:01

who's giving you the ads? It's I mean, advertising is not good.

42:06

In Dave Jones: that manner. Yeah, that's the you mean, you want to

42:11

hear the pic money shot? Clip six, when is it a podcast? And

42:15

when is it not? And where do you think that should go? And

42:20

Unknown: I don't care. I gotta I don't care. You know, my

42:24

background is content and audience and sales dollars Chase

42:30

ears. So let's go find yours. wherever they are. Figure the

42:34

mechanics out. Okay, Adam Curry: well, that's totally fair. Totally fair, totally

42:38

fair. Go do the criticism, Dave Jones: but don't but but the only criticism would be the

42:44

enemy, even if it even is a criticism is that's not a

42:49

podcast, that is not somebody who is loyal to podcasting, and

42:53

trying to make the podcast industry know, into something

42:56

into something bigger and better. That is somebody who's

42:59

in the advertising industry, and trying to make the advertising

43:03

industry bigger and better. And those are two different things.

43:07

Because you, you do have people whose jobs and livelihoods

43:12

depend on podcasting, not advertising, podcasting. And

43:17

when you conflate the two terms, it it can do real damage,

43:21

because there it is a it confuses the market.

43:24

Adam Curry: Yeah. Well, I mean, there's there's so much wrong

43:27

with the market now. I mean, imagine your immediate buyer and

43:30

this, you know, and people saying, hey, everything's down.

43:33

Why is it down? Well, it's because of the app is just

43:36

downloading was not downloading him. No, that's not it. It's

43:39

just down. What is it up down? It's like, there's no clear

43:42

answers. Everybody's dancing around it. It's just not. Yes,

43:47

you correct. You don't have rich, great data that you have

43:52

in other avenues. You just don't. So it's all iOS 17

43:56

Dave Jones: fault. Let's just play it. Clearly. Yeah, I

43:59

remember Pearl Harbor. Yeah. It was in Adam Curry: iOS 70. Yeah.

44:05

Dave Jones: That I think I mean, like the the download slowdown.

44:10

That's an interesting phenomenon to the OP is interesting to me,

44:15

because John Spurlock said he's not seeing that same slowdown on

44:19

mp3 stats, which means which tells me that the people I would

44:24

say op three is biased towards podcasters who are very hands on

44:31

with their shows. You know, I mean, they're, they're people.

44:36

They're probably people who are very careful and considerate

44:40

about the way they do their show stats, they're not just going

44:43

out. And if you're if you're choosing Opie three, you've

44:45

thought about it. Yes. And you've probably thought about

44:48

lots of stuff that relates to your podcast, you're probably a

44:51

very careful person in that regard. So this tells me that

44:58

that this general slowed down in downloads across the board is

45:02

happening outside of that sector of people. Because it doesn't

45:06

seem to be happening for shows that are on mp3. Alright.

45:09

Interesting that that means that there's there may be just a

45:14

general falling off in either listenership to that to the

45:21

lower tier of shows or maybe just fatigue on the part of

45:25

podcasters that are starting to, to bail out and put shows out at

45:30

it at a smaller pace. I don't know what

45:33

Adam Curry: now, I heard something interesting that, you

45:36

know, how hosting companies have to renew their cert, their IAB

45:40

certification before the end of the year, or they know they

45:44

won't be, quote unquote, certified? What? Is it possible

45:51

that a lot of these companies just like, well, there's not

45:53

really a lot of money in advertising anyway, we can give

45:56

you you know, the numbers that are compliant, but we're not

46:01

gonna what does it cost? What does it what does it cost these

46:05

days to? We get certified, I thought

46:09

Dave Jones: guards down with the host is like, it was like, initially, it was like, 50 grand, yeah, but it's gone down

46:13

since then. Right. And then they give everybody a coupon

46:18

Adam Curry: for a drink. Dave Jones: You get everybody a mate, you know, like, like, a

46:24

gift card to like, drop the price down to like, 12 or

46:27

something like that. It's still a lot of money 15

46:30

Adam Curry: A lot of money and made me look hosting companies,

46:33

their business is very simple. provide good hosting and an

46:38

interface and a customer support. Then if it's if it's

46:42

going to cost them too much money for not, you know. I don't

46:46

know as Nathan Jesus 12 and a half 1000 for a new member. Oh,

46:49

they really took it down. 6250 for renewable non member. Oh, if

46:55

you're not a member at 17, five and 887 50. So that's a lot of

46:59

money. It's realize a lot of money, real money to no money.

47:02

Dave Jones: What I don't the hosting companies may be looking

47:06

around and seeing that. Adam Curry: What's the point? That's my point. Exactly.

47:12

Dave Jones: Yeah. What's the if So here, you can you can

47:14

juxtapose this with the apple, excuse me, not the apple with

47:17

the with the podcast slowdown. For some reason that nobody

47:21

fully understands yet. All the sudden droid downloads across

47:24

the board just dropped 16 17% Except

47:27

Adam Curry: for Pocket Casts. That went up. Yeah. I was that

47:31

worried? Dave Jones: So if you have that, if, if if global downloads can

47:37

drop by 17%. And nobody knows why, what what's the point of

47:41

even having some sort of a beast? Well, that's

47:44

Adam Curry: an excellent point. That's how poor the data really

47:47

is. We don't even know why. Dave Jones: Yeah, what I would, you know, as a, as an industry,

47:53

everybody could say, well, we're just we're doing it based on the

47:58

way that the two point of the last spec that we saw, we're

48:02

basing everything on that. And that's good enough. Good.

48:05

Adam Curry: Now this stuff has never worked. I mean, they

48:07

brought in Terry Semel into YouTube. It's always when you

48:10

bring the Hollywood people in oh, we're going to now is going

48:12

to look, AOL. AOL bought Time Warner. Come on. It's been going

48:17

on forever. Oh, yeah. Wait decision, once we put the

48:20

technology with the content is going to be great. No, it just

48:23

it. And this is kind of good, because everybody can now blame

48:27

it on Kim Kardashian and the Obamas. And Bruce Springsteen

48:32

and the other, they can pretty much blame it on everybody

48:34

except Joe Rogan. They can blame all this, the Harry AND MEGAN

48:39

Oh, it's all their fault, because, you know, Spotify

48:41

burned money on them. That that's, that's, I guess, the

48:45

upside of what they can do anyway.

48:47

Dave Jones: Plus the escape. Escape. Yeah, yeah. I thought.

48:51

So I have a cron job that runs every day in it. It sets feed,

48:58

feed priority and popularity. So this cron job runs on the

49:05

podcast index front end servers. So the the front end API

49:11

servers, they log every call for 90 days. And every every every

49:22

morning it the cron job runs and looks at yesterday's log and

49:30

tallies up for each feed that was requested for episodes. Like

49:37

so if a if an app requested an episode list using the episodes

49:43

by feed ID and point and that call came from a recognized

49:48

developer token that's in a list that I've curated that I'm not

49:51

going to say who's in but it's you know, it's pod verse, you

49:55

know, fountain it's it's the standard it's it's developed

50:00

First who are writing apps that we know are, are legitimate. So

50:06

if it meets those criteria, if if one of those apps requested

50:11

episode list for a podcast feed, it tallies those up and then

50:17

says, okay, the feed popularity needs to be bumped up for the

50:22

feed. And the feed and or the feed priority if it's not a pod

50:26

being enabled host needs to go up. So in order, basically, its

50:29

base is tracking all the time to see what's being requested.

50:33

What's being requested, so that then it can begin to inform the

50:37

aggregators, the story can reform, dry search about

50:40

popularity ranking, and it can form the aggregate gators about

50:43

whether they need to pull that feed more often. So that's a

50:48

standard thing we've been doing. I've never I've never really

50:53

looked at that script. So I went back and looked at it yesterday,

51:00

just unlike, you know, wonder, wonder how many feeds this?

51:04

Adam Curry: What is this thing doing here? This is Dave's AI.

51:07

You let your AI run for a year? Uh huh.

51:10

Dave Jones: And it just out of curiosity, I'm like, Okay, a

51:12

little through some stats into it. In, in a day in a 24 hour

51:18

period, there were 35,169 individual podcast feeds that

51:27

were requested. Adam Curry: That individual wants to be low. Yeah,

51:33

individual ones. Dave Jones: Yes. Individual distinct, unique podcast IDs. I

51:40

think that's pretty interesting. So if we have 4.2 9 million

51:45

shows in the index, yeah. And on a in under 20, in a typical 24

51:49

hour period, less than 40,000 of those are actually being in sort

51:55

of interrogated for their episode list and their metadata.

51:59

Adam Curry: I would look at jeopardy, I would look at it differently, I would say, look at your 60 and 90 day, Episode

52:07

updates, which is around 400,000. So your almost 40,000

52:11

will be 10%. That's how I would look at it because this 4.2

52:15

million. Yeah, we know the truth. We know, we know the

52:19

truth. Podcasting is much smaller than that. It really is.

52:24

So Dave Jones: yeah, that's a good look. So that out of the

52:27

338,000, over, over 30 days, roughly 10. Only about 10% of

52:36

the of those shows that update in 30 day period. Anyone

52:39

listening Adam Curry: to this where people are listening to or require

52:42

let's be fair, or requesting an episode list?

52:46

Dave Jones: And I think the our our numbers conclusive about it

52:50

are representing No, but I will say that I mean, shows like, I

52:56

mean, podcasts, apps, like pod pod verse and fountain. In

53:02

specifically those two have very long, I mean, they have a lot of

53:05

client of users. Yeah, lots of users. And those. While this may

53:11

not be wholly representative, it's a pretty good number. I

53:18

mean, I feel good about this number that if you just step

53:22

back and say okay, how many shows do you think, are actually

53:29

something that people listen to? across across the board or

53:33

globally? How many shows that if I told, you know, we know, we

53:43

know how many update, Adam Curry: you'd have to give me uniques per week, per month,

53:50

then we need to know, we need to know frequency of update of each

53:54

of these individual shows. But yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We'll

54:01

Dave Jones: take take the 90 day stat on the index 462,000. So

54:05

that's how many shows that have published an episode in the last

54:07

90 days. If, if even if you know that number, am I okay? Well,

54:13

those are how many those are how many feeds that are publishing

54:15

episode episodes? Well, then, and we know there's some

54:19

duplicates in there and that kind of thing. So we know, there's a margin of error. But if if you then say, if I want me

54:27

to come at it this way, if I if I said, if I told you if we were

54:31

talking and I said, Hey, you know what? I bet you the number

54:35

of shows that people actually listened to on a daily basis is

54:40

less than 50,000. Would that surprise you?

54:46

Adam Curry: On that's only across our apps.

54:51

Dave Jones: I'm thinking across the board.

54:53

Adam Curry: Well, why because this is only this is not. This

54:56

is only our apps. I mean, you think yeah, Dave Jones: no but our apps Ruth showed 35,000 If I say 50,000 or

55:04

less, I just have this gut feeling that the number of shows

55:11

that people actively tune into and listen to on a daily basis

55:15

across the globe is in the five digit range.

55:19

Adam Curry: Could be the could be, and still a lot. Oh,

55:22

Dave Jones: it's a it's a lot. There's not a criticism saying

55:25

that these could be it's a sort of a real is a real reality

55:28

check in a way? Adam Curry: Well, I don't know if you can, if you can slice and

55:33

dice it that way. Because, you know, all of our apps have, you

55:36

know, under combined probably have under 1% market share of

55:40

what people are using to listen to podcasts.

55:42

Dave Jones: So, but it would, but ours would be representative

55:46

of a whole, you know, because if you take that you take the

55:49

audience that is let's say if if pod verse has, if pod verse says

55:54

10,000 10,000 users and Apple podcasts has 10 million? Well,

56:02

the the range, the list of shows that they that doesn't affect

56:09

the number of users doesn't necessarily mean that the range

56:12

of shows are going to be different. And so what you know,

56:16

like what I'm saying, you're just gonna have more downloads, but that doesn't mean you're listening to more shows.

56:20

Adam Curry: Okay. Yeah. Well, also, this is, you know, this

56:23

data that you're talking about is not download data. This is

56:26

like someone actively is looking for something as a real human

56:30

probably doing something. Yes. Possibly,

56:34

Dave Jones: I mean, that you could say searches would be more

56:36

of an indicator that this is probably this is more like

56:38

things that are actually there would be initial subscriptions,

56:43

or catch ups, aggregation help, you know, things like that. I

56:50

don't know, it's something I want to look at over time, and

56:52

just out of curiosity, not because there's any, you know,

56:55

immense value to it. But it's just, it would not be shocking,

57:00

if it's, if it's a five digit number of how many shows people

57:06

out of out of all these shows that people actually listen to

57:09

on a daily basis. Adam Curry: And it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, 50,000, it

57:14

wouldn't surprise me on a global basis, I guess. Yeah. Because

57:18

Dave Jones: that's actually a lot of shows. I mean, a 50,000

57:21

shows a lot of podcast. That's a lot of I mean, that's, that's,

57:26

you know, a factor of, of 10 more television shows and stuff

57:31

than there are likely Yeah. So you're already way you're that's

57:36

so much content that you're way out on a limb already. So I

57:42

don't know. It's just a point of curiosity to me.

57:45

Adam Curry: I have a couple things on my list. One is pod

57:51

roll. So you've been doing work on that? Yeah. Do you want to

57:56

share with the class? Dave Jones: Well, I'm trying to put it into the I haven't had

58:02

much coding time this way. But I'm trying to put that into the

58:07

the API calls them actually, we're already generating the,

58:12

the lists the JSON lists for those, but now return them in

58:18

the, in the actual endpoints for podcast, data. So like, when you

58:23

request a feed, it would also show you the pod roll. Okay.

58:25

Okay. Right, or the pod roll that that feed is producing, and

58:29

it's bandwidth. Adam Curry: And I guess the question is, how will Daniel J.

58:32

Lewis be able to use this to create some magical stats that

58:35

he can sell to people? That's

58:38

Dave Jones: his job, as I'm not doing his job for him? Right

58:41

now? Adam Curry: I'm just curious if you have any thoughts. Dave Jones: I mean, he, he can, he can suck it in and then, you

58:47

know, start started slicing and dicing and the way he does, he's

58:50

got it. If anybody needs more stuff in here, like if you if

58:54

you look at those lists, as you said, Daniel, so it made me

58:58

think of iTunes IDs. If people need iTunes IDs in there, oh, I

59:02

Adam Curry: see what you're saying, Hey, can I hand that off? Yeah, let me

59:05

Dave Jones: know. Because it any the more data that's in there,

59:07

the less requests they have, they don't have to just turn

59:10

around and hit the API to get it. I'm also doing something for

59:16

John, John Booth over transistor, he contacted me

59:20

about some, some stuff with POD roll. So I'm doing some stuff

59:23

for him. And I'll, I'll talk about that. I think it's gonna

59:26

be a new, there's gonna be a new end point for just saying,

59:32

Here's a batch of feed IDs. Give me all the current metadata for

59:38

all of them. Yeah, and if I can get that to work, right, it

59:42

might also solve Daniels problem because Daniel asked for the

59:45

iTunes lookup endpoint support multiples right? In a might be

59:50

able to combine those two. The way it's funny the way so the

59:53

way it works in our database, is we have an apple table and then

59:59

we have a newsfeeds table. Now the news feeds table contains

1:00:03

all the podcast feeds. And the apple table contains metadata

1:00:12

that is specific to what the way this thing exists in apple. And

1:00:17

then we have a linkage between the two. So when there's an

1:00:20

iTunes ID in newsfeeds table, it links to that record in the

1:00:25

Apple table. So it can get a little weird because like, like

1:00:31

the at the low level at the underlying level, the where the

1:00:35

endpoints call the low level functions to actually get the

1:00:38

stuff out of the database. It's actually two different

1:00:42

functions. So the podcast by feed ID endpoint, calls a

1:00:48

function called Get feeds by ID three. And that just pulls does

1:00:54

a it does a query on the news feeds table with a whole bunch

1:00:59

of joins for other tables to bring in to point out the

1:01:02

specific data, then, that if you do pod the hit the API endpoint

1:01:08

called podcast by iTunes ID, it actually doesn't request on the

1:01:13

Apple table and joins in all the rest of it. So it's not

1:01:19

Adam Curry: quite a service. Dave Jones: Yes, just because you can do something with like,

1:01:26

just because you can make something work on the normal

1:01:28

side doesn't mean that it's just a straight like copy paste over

1:01:32

to the other like the the sequels to SQL statements are a

1:01:37

really very different. So it takes like brainpower to, to

1:01:42

say, Okay, this is what I'm doing over here. And now for the

1:01:45

iTunes ID endpoints, I've got to convert that to this equivalent

1:01:48

thing over here. It's not always a straightforward is, is it?

1:01:53

Adam Curry: Bringing up another point, I want to make sure that

1:01:55

Daniel and Sam are both heard activity streams. This isn't

1:02:01

when I hear someone saying no one listens to me. Like, I hear

1:02:05

you, I hear you. So I've obviously I've looked up

1:02:08

activity streams. This is a web standard. So this is supposed to

1:02:14

be the fix for everything. I'm not understanding. Do you have

1:02:19

an opinion on this? Or, you know, I know Sam has baked this

1:02:23

into pod fans, and they've got 30 activity streams, which as

1:02:26

far as I know, is like more like a started kind of like web based

1:02:30

stuff. Dave Jones: Yes, well, activity streams is the activity streams

1:02:37

is related to the JSON LD JSON LD, which is a way to sort of

1:02:42

schematized JSON. And bring is sort of like a JSON LD is to is

1:02:54

to JSON, sort of what XML was to HTML.

1:03:00

Adam Curry: Okay, gotcha. Yeah, gotcha. Dave Jones: It's a lot. That's not an you know that that

1:03:04

analogy breaks down. But that's about as close as I can get

1:03:07

right now. It's, it's a way to take a schema. And say, because

1:03:12

inherently, JSON is schema lists, it's a serialization

1:03:16

object serialization, right? Adam Curry: But but it's the point here, because you know,

1:03:19

this supposedly is some magic potion. If everyone just did

1:03:22

activity streams, we'd have cross app comments, we have

1:03:25

booster grams going back and forth, and I just don't

1:03:27

understand it. Is there, does anyone run their own servers,

1:03:30

their central servers, it just everyone puts a file into their

1:03:34

feed? This is kind of the information I'm not gonna I

1:03:37

Dave Jones: mean, activity streams, activity streams is an

1:03:40

activity pub, I think I've mentioned there on the message

1:03:43

on there, they're two sides of the same coin. I mean, activity

1:03:45

streams is the sort of the baseline of the way activity pub

1:03:52

gets pushed around. So you can say, you know, an AI activity

1:03:56

pub defines a set of, of endpoints and things like this,

1:04:02

where it's like, okay, you can find this data here, you can

1:04:06

find this other data here. There's an inbox and outbox and

1:04:09

actor. And here's where they live. activity streams is the

1:04:13

actual protocol by which those actions take place. So, I mean,

1:04:20

you really, it's hard to separate the two from one

1:04:23

another. In the in, in the sense of, like, what things look like

1:04:28

in the real world. When you're interacting with Mastodon and

1:04:31

stuff, you're interacting with activity pub and activity

1:04:33

streams at the same time. So when do you know Sam's Sam's

1:04:41

took the same a similar approach to what Benjamin Bellamy did

1:04:45

with Casta pod and said, Okay, well, activity streams and

1:04:52

activity. Pub are the social, you know, the Open Social

1:04:57

standard, and there's a A certain you know, object, verb

1:05:02

subject language that happens. And that fits what we sort of do

1:05:06

in podcasting, it's a person is a person, the actor, following

1:05:11

the act, you know, which is the action, a podcast, which is the

1:05:15

subject, I mean, like this, the model fits for what podcasting

1:05:20

is. So you can sort of take that activity stream idea and lay it

1:05:24

on top of podcasting, and you could see how it works. So

1:05:29

that's what Benjamin Bellamy did with caste bodies, like let's

1:05:31

just embrace that, that, that that model and build our thing

1:05:36

around activity streams in, but then expose it with activity

1:05:41

pub, so that is compatible with Mastodon and all these other

1:05:44

things. And, you know, Sam, Sam did the same thing. And it's not

1:05:49

a bad idea. I mean, it's, it's good. The bridge that I'm

1:05:54

building that I haven't had much time to work on this past week.

1:06:00

As mean, it's just my goal is just to get it initially

1:06:04

compatible with activity, productivity pub, right. So

1:06:08

there's follow up. And excuse me, bless,

1:06:12

Adam Curry: good. commuting time. I'm sorry, I tried to get

1:06:15

there. Dave Jones: So, but but activity streams, that that idea sort of

1:06:23

that model is, yeah, I mean, I think it works. It's just a

1:06:28

matter of how you build it out. Adam Curry: I mean, what's interesting is that just cross

1:06:32

app comm it's just no app developers care. They have they

1:06:35

have, you know, everyone has some kind of implementation.

1:06:38

It's in there. There's no, there's no, you know, seamless

1:06:41

way to do it. And it just doesn't seem to be some things

1:06:44

you, you just can't force it. If if if the app devs aren't doing

1:06:48

it, then it's just not gonna happen. Doesn't matter what you

1:06:50

choose? Well, Dave Jones: I get I get inspired by stuff like this. I'm glad

1:06:55

that like Benjamin and Sam. Oh, thank you very PP. Yeah, it's an

1:07:01

object actor, target asset object actor subject. Yes,

1:07:05

target. So the, I mean, I liked this idea. Because if it works,

1:07:10

and it becomes a really nice experience, then then you have

1:07:16

you know, Sam has an app, cast a pod is a platform, excuse me a

1:07:21

hosting platform. Now we have to now Yeah, and then you have then

1:07:27

you have the fediverse over here that is commenting and

1:07:31

interacting with this stuff. Now you have three good sets of

1:07:35

examples. And other apps can now have this rich expand, you have

1:07:40

mini pub from John Spurlock. I guess what I'm trying to say is

1:07:45

the the activity pub activity, you know, world is getting built

1:07:49

around us. Like as, as we speak, there's been a lot of people

1:07:54

that have, you know, been have been kind of irritated by the

1:07:57

slowness of it. But it is building itself. Yeah. And, and

1:08:02

you could choose if you look around a year from now, and

1:08:06

you're like, Oh, this is interesting. There's a lot of

1:08:09

pain. And this is a lot of stuff out there. And you know, oh, it

1:08:13

only takes it only takes a little bit a little bit of code

1:08:17

to and now all of a sudden, I've opened up this interrupt between

1:08:22

my podcast app and and what Sam's doing over here with with

1:08:28

boost, and I can follow this action and I can, I can now

1:08:32

benefit from seeing things over there. And oh, the bunch of

1:08:36

people subscribing to this podcast on pod fans. I can I can

1:08:39

trend that in my thing or show comments. Or

1:08:43

Adam Curry: to be honest, if I just look at pod verse and I

1:08:45

look at our show, you know, which I always make the route

1:08:48

post your your board meeting post. And so you know from the

1:08:54

last show underneath you is Spurlock and then Alex gates,

1:08:59

and then 33 over 10 or head. I mean, this is all Mastodon

1:09:03

comments, but they show up in the app. It's pretty cool. You

1:09:05

just have no way to interact from the app. That's that's the

1:09:09

main that's the main problem I have is like why can't I just

1:09:11

reply here and the app seems

1:09:13

Dave Jones: to end if you guys see me if you go to our website

1:09:16

and go down and look at into an episode and do

1:09:18

Adam Curry: Oh, yeah, of course it all tons of comments.

1:09:22

Dave Jones: It is right there. I mean, this is it's all there for

1:09:24

the taking. Adam Curry: Yeah, when everybody's busy, everybody's

1:09:28

busy. Everyone's busy. Dave Jones: But But see, that's my point is stuff is getting

1:09:33

built. It is. You know, it's that and we knew this we you

1:09:38

know, we I think we talked about this like a year ago, we started

1:09:41

talking about how the the low hanging fruit was, was plucked.

1:09:45

Yeah. Now the Adam Curry: hard now the harder now the real work starts.

1:09:50

Dave Jones: Yeah, because the hard stuff involves protocols,

1:09:54

and protocols. Protocols are harder than markup.

1:09:58

Adam Curry: Well, it's a golden age. For us in podcasting,

1:10:02

because we are the future being built right now that everything

1:10:05

else is old hat. You it's all gonna happen. It's all it's all

1:10:10

it's people will become more and more aware. People already are I

1:10:14

mean, it's just podcasters need to tell their audiences. That's

1:10:16

all. And it's happening. Dave Jones: They have I've got something on my list ask you

1:10:21

about. Okay. And this is the image copyright thing with that

1:10:27

James had written up, you are an expert in this area, because

1:10:32

you, you have six, did you bring the first loss successful

1:10:37

lawsuit about Creative Commons? or Yes, about you? Yes, sued

1:10:40

people in one when it comes to image copyright infringement?

1:10:42

Specifically? Yes. Do you have thoughts on this whole thing?

1:10:48

Adam Curry: If that's not quite the same as the as the issue

1:10:51

with the Creative Commons lawsuit that I mounted. This is

1:10:57

very unique. The United States has smartly, I think, a whole

1:11:02

bunch of protections for exactly this. I mean, what this reminded

1:11:07

me of, and, you know, James, got it. And we had a little back and

1:11:12

forth. Because, you know, in Australia, I guess there's a lot

1:11:16

of things you don't have, and one of them is, you know, a very

1:11:18

clear way for, you know, a copyright copyright takedown,

1:11:22

there's a process. You know, we're, we're members, so, you

1:11:26

know, like six bucks a year. And then if someone finds something

1:11:29

that we're surfacing, and it's copyrighted, you know, I would

1:11:34

personally say, hey, once you go over those guys, because they're

1:11:36

posting it, but if you want, we'll take it down, you know, no

1:11:39

problem. And there's no, there's no lawsuit involved. What this

1:11:42

really reminded me of, is, there was a guy who worked for me, my,

1:11:46

my company thinks new ideas. And this is in the 90s for what's

1:11:51

his name, but doesn't actually doesn't matter. And he became

1:11:57

incredibly wealthy. In the porn business. He had.

1:12:02

Dave Jones: I've heard you've talked about this guy. Yeah, he had moved to like LA, he had

1:12:05

Adam Curry: Malibu he had the house in Malibu. He had the

1:12:08

Ferraris he had, you know, his wife was riding horses all day.

1:12:14

And they had, like, the real upscale porn,

1:12:18

Dave Jones: by the end of Bitcoin was a Bitcoin, no, no,

1:12:20

no, no, real upscale

1:12:23

Adam Curry: porn, tie end, high end stuff, like beautifully

1:12:28

shot, you know, etc, beautiful models, the whole thing. And,

1:12:33

and I was just, I'm just talking about that. And he kind of

1:12:35

explains his business, which is not really selling porn to

1:12:41

people. It's copyright lawsuits. And the way it would work is, if

1:12:46

someone had downloaded usually a torrent or a movie from some

1:12:50

file, you know, they they would be snooping IP addresses and

1:12:55

boom, they'd send you a note and say, Hey, you clearly downloaded

1:12:58

this porn. It's ours and $5,000, or we're going to sue you, and

1:13:03

you really don't want that to be out in public, do you? And

1:13:06

that's how they made their money. No way. Yes. That's how

1:13:11

they made their money. And a lot of it because everyone's like, I

1:13:15

mean, it's kind of the, you know, these days is a funny one,

1:13:18

once you get an email says, I saw you I've hijacked your

1:13:22

computer. I saw what you were doing now. Are there anybody

1:13:25

give me a Bitcoin? Yeah, so we've all seen that. But this

1:13:28

this was real. I mean, they would basically blackmail and

1:13:32

then top notch lawyers who would do this all day long. You know,

1:13:36

do 10 a day, no more has 50,000 bucks, and people would do it

1:13:41

like, Oh, crap, you know, I don't want anybody to know that

1:13:43

I was wrong. Especially not that porn, you know, whatever. Yeah,

1:13:48

so that it wreaked a bit of that to me. Now, it was for I

1:13:52

realized it was 450 Australian dollars, like Mach Come on.

1:13:55

That's like a hammer. 20 Dave Jones: bucks. It's like a Big Mac. Yeah. Yeah. That's,

1:14:00

that's an Andrew Jackson. Adam Curry: So and obviously, I think it's good that the James

1:14:06

wrote this up. I mean, it's, this is this is not something

1:14:11

that happens in America and I guess, bod, pod news is a LLC is

1:14:17

a US company. So he got out of it that way. But you know,

1:14:22

there's all kinds of to me, this is just a shyster. And I would

1:14:25

have been like, oh, yeah, I really want you to come and see.

1:14:27

I don't care. I mean, we've had when we had that guy who was

1:14:30

like, I'm representing Fox News, and you're breaking copyright.

1:14:33

And I said, Okay, boat King, just show me how you represent

1:14:36

Fox News. He never came back with that. And then he come

1:14:39

back, you know, some some time later. Like, I You gotta get

1:14:43

this. This is this is no copyright violation. And we're

1:14:46

happy to take it down. But you got to show me that you actually

1:14:48

represent the owner of this work. And I don't know how we

1:14:52

resolve that. But he went away. He never did. He's never came

1:14:55

back. He just gave up on us. So there's a lot of the shysters

1:14:58

out there. Well, Dave Jones: it's Like, is it a? Is it a lid? You know that this

1:15:04

does that comes down to? Is it legal? Yes. Is it ethical? No. I

1:15:13

mean, like this is not legal doesn't mean that it's ethical

1:15:19

Adam Curry: doesn't make the world go round. Porn porn and IP

1:15:22

addresses makes the world go round. That's how you blast in

1:15:25

Malibu. That's how you get the place of Malibu. So that

1:15:29

Dave Jones: whole thing, that whole scam, though, that has

1:15:31

evolved to actual recording of things now subnet that because,

1:15:36

uh, you know, I do cybersecurity a lot for my day job. And a

1:15:41

recent recent thing that I was the conference that I was in was

1:15:44

talking about how this that whole scam where you get the

1:15:48

letter saying, I you know, I got pictures of you, you know, that

1:15:51

that has evolved to where now it's a little bit of a

1:15:55

combination between pig butchering, and that so now you

1:15:59

get contacted, and they're like, in some fake hot girl will chat

1:16:07

you up right lot for a while and get you to actually record

1:16:11

yourself. I don't know, you know, wagon or whatever and send

1:16:14

it to to Adam Curry: her him and this is going on at your office. No,

1:16:19

Dave Jones: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is this is the new

1:16:22

global scan. Oh, okay. So then in his kitchen, you know who

1:16:25

it's catching? Of course, it's catching teenage boy. Yes,

1:16:28

obviously. And they, they record you? And or excuse me, you

1:16:34

record yourself and send it to them like a dick pic type thing?

1:16:37

Oh, good. Then they're like, oh, you know, check this out. I'm

1:16:41

gonna send this to all your friends on Facebook unless you

1:16:43

give me $200 In the $200 is specifically

1:16:50

Adam Curry: is what is what they think that kid can afford? Yes,

1:16:52

Dave Jones: exactly. They're like, Okay, we can't do so much

1:16:55

that they're that they're gonna freak out and not be able to get

1:16:59

the money we do just enough where they could probably scrape

1:17:01

it together and send it to us. And there was one example of a

1:17:05

guy that got arrested it was doing this scam. He was making

1:17:08

millions off this. I mean, whatever in like 100 a day.

1:17:13

Whenever Adam Curry: I get any of those emails I send it I reply back.

1:17:16

You owe me a Bitcoin. Have you seen that thing? It's got an

1:17:18

elbow. Give me a break. You owe me for looking at it. No

1:17:27

copyright owner. I'm not that sick. All right, I have first of

1:17:32

all, thank you Dame Jennifer for registering modern podcast

1:17:35

apps.com. She heard me saying I'm boost the grand ball to

1:17:38

modern podcast app. And she's gonna go register that thank

1:17:41

you. Of course, that forwards to our app section chyron dear old

1:17:48

chyron has an issue with with a Shem. And this was an

1:17:52

interesting and I finally dug into it like okay, now I

1:17:55

understand what he's talking about. So he used for his buzz

1:18:02

sprout feed for the value block he used fountain. And I guess so

1:18:09

fountain as the Shem, which is basically the same thing as the

1:18:12

podcaster wallet with the difference. And I don't know if

1:18:15

you can do that with the podcast or wallet.com. But with fountain

1:18:18

you can set value blocks per episode. Correct. Did you know

1:18:24

this? Dave Jones: In fountain? Yes, I

1:18:29

Adam Curry: did. Yes. So they're writing to the to I guess they

1:18:32

have write permissions. And they'll write b or whatever

1:18:35

splits chyron wants per episode, they'll write that to the value

1:18:38

block. Dave Jones: is they have a party there in the partner APIA.

1:18:42

Adam Curry: Right, exactly. So now chyron wants to move. He

1:18:46

wants to move his feed. But and I guess he wants to move to a

1:18:51

host that has you know that has it all native in the feed? Now

1:18:55

he's stuck. So the question is, why was he stuck? Because he

1:19:00

doesn't he doesn't have a feed that he doesn't have the

1:19:04

information. There's no feed that he can look at even and

1:19:07

say, Oh, this is this is all the value blocks I had for every

1:19:10

single episode. Dave Jones: It would be in the index. Yeah. Yes. But

1:19:15

Adam Curry: then but he has to recreate every single one of

1:19:18

those one by one. He needs to he needs to do that anyway, right.

1:19:22

You know, he wants to so his question is, can he export a

1:19:26

feed that has all the value blog, let's just say for

1:19:30

argument's sake, he wants to self host Okay, all right. So,

1:19:34

he needs a feed that has all of his value blocks in there should

1:19:39

that be certainly Dave Jones: can do a feed so they can do a feed import?

1:19:42

Adam Curry: Correct. So is that something that we should offer?

1:19:48

Which by the way is is an intro is an interesting feature, you

1:19:51

know, download your feed as it is from the index is

1:19:56

interesting. Dave Jones: That's an that is, I

1:20:01

Adam Curry: mean, especially let's say your host blows up and

1:20:03

just goes away or whatever, I have a perpetual backup, or is

1:20:08

that something fountain should provide since they're providing

1:20:10

the shim functionality? Dave Jones: Well, I mean, I guess ideally found sheets

1:20:16

should provide it. But that's, you know, we're,

1:20:20

Adam Curry: we're first we'd like to facilitate. Yeah,

1:20:23

Dave Jones: I mean, we're good. We're good guys. Adam Curry: Speak for yourself. Dave Jones. You owe me five

1:20:29

grand. Hey, I saw your IP address. Dave Jones: Yeah, yes. Good for you. Yeah, I mean, we could do

1:20:37

that. Yeah, that'd be we could we could export an XML of just

1:20:43

sort of the basic, sort of, like, reconstruct a feed. If you

1:20:49

need, you know, like, hey, I need a feed of this, right?

1:20:53

Yeah, we could, we could do that. I mean, I can build it.

1:20:55

Adam Curry: Which brings me to my final point for this board

1:20:58

meeting. No. OPML. And, um,

1:21:03

Dave Jones: are you gonna, are you gonna? Are you gonna bust my chops for No,

1:21:06

Adam Curry: no, no, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a question, a philosophical question. Oh, my favorite can so

1:21:11

OPML is the most misunderstood format in the world. affirmed.

1:21:18

Yes. And, and this, and this kind of came to me when I saw

1:21:23

Christopher icing who he was publishing an OPML file of the,

1:21:30

you know, a day's worth of pod pings, which I'm like, this is

1:21:32

cool. So I go to import that OPML in my freedom controller,

1:21:38

and it basically just shows me a whole list of empty links,

1:21:42

there's nothing in there. And OPML has been OPML is, which is

1:21:48

outline processor Markup Language. If people follow the

1:21:51

spec, it is a very powerful, powerful format that we could

1:21:57

use for so much more than just subscription lists. You know,

1:22:02

I'm saying, and you could export lots of basically your data. You

1:22:11

know, it was like the idea of take your data with you, it will

1:22:13

be much more than just your, than just your subscriptions. It

1:22:17

could be, you know, your, your wallets. It could be all kinds

1:22:21

of stuff we could put in there. And there's, you know, I think

1:22:24

you and I have always seen future possibilities for OPML as

1:22:28

a format for all kinds of social activities. Yes. Is it worth

1:22:33

telling everybody please go look at the spec and do it right. Or

1:22:36

is it is there so much misinformation out there that

1:22:39

it'll just never happen? Dave Jones: Well, he's doing it wrong,

1:22:42

Adam Curry: everybody, everybody does it wrong. I mean, if I if I

1:22:46

take any, any OPML export from any app, and I want to import it

1:22:51

into a proper OPML Outliner, which never works.

1:22:57

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, Adam Curry: never will. Not a single one of them.

1:23:07

Dave Jones: I mean, OPML is, people. The biggest issue with

1:23:11

OPML is that it's married to RSS in a way that's wrong. People

1:23:17

think that OPML is just an RSS subscription list. Yeah, that's

1:23:21

right. It'd be a Mel's not it's not it's OPML is its own thing.

1:23:25

It existed before. RSS subscription lists were a thing.

1:23:29

Our sister scription lists were just a use case for OPML. But

1:23:33

OPML itself is, is a completely independent self self says, you

1:23:38

know, sufficient markup language. And I don't know, I

1:23:45

mean, I don't know where the I don't know where to put that.

1:23:50

Adam Curry: I just wanted to bring it up, you know, because

1:23:52

I'll tell you, here's what I find with OPML. I do all my show

1:23:55

notes. In an outliner, on the freedom controller, I publish an

1:24:00

HTML, and I publish an OPML. And because I've consistently for

1:24:04

about 10 years, published an OPML being at.io exists, you

1:24:09

know, there's been search engines built. And if you look

1:24:12

at if you look at an OPML file, from no agenda, as an example,

1:24:16

from clips, to articles, offline versions of articles, all of it

1:24:22

is all beautifully organized in an XML format happens to be OPML

1:24:27

it's collapsible, it's such a rich format. There's so much

1:24:31

that people could do with it. And I don't know maybe, maybe

1:24:35

it's that that that train has left the station. I don't know.

1:24:39

I've always loved it. I've always thought that's so cool.

1:24:42

You know? Dave Jones: Yeah, ever when we need us, you know, we just need

1:24:49

the sheer Europian mail for for podcasting again, and that's

1:24:54

probably something that because, well, this you know what, I'm

1:24:59

gonna put that on If Adam Curry: we put in, I don't know, eight years worth of work

1:25:05

into the freedom controller, eight years worth, and we had s

1:25:09

OPML, we had this whole social construct, which, which

1:25:15

integrates seamlessly with RSS feeds, it updates automatically

1:25:20

when there's an update from from, you know, an RSS feed,

1:25:23

which, you know, is inherently wasn't even a podcast feed, you

1:25:28

know, just a blog post. I mean, there's so much beauty in there.

1:25:32

That is Dave Jones: going to be my that is going to be my Christmas

1:25:34

present to you as a share your OPML endpoint in the API. Okay,

1:25:42

let's, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's to, let's do that. Here's,

1:25:45

here's how we could do it. We make it we make it where we it

1:25:49

will accept an OPML file. So you're in your in, you're in pod

1:25:56

fans, and you and you export your feed list and want to in an

1:26:02

option can pop up and say, Do you want to share this

1:26:05

anonymized feed list with the podcast index? There you go. We

1:26:10

say yes, they send this they send us the XML through through

1:26:15

an endpoint post opera post action. Uh huh. We take it and

1:26:20

we interpret it. We decode the the OPML into a pod role.

1:26:29

Basically, we save the OPML. But then we but we treat it as a pod

1:26:35

role. So that you so it's a way for people to share their

1:26:40

subscription list Adam Curry: I got I like it. I like it. What do you think? I

1:26:44

like? Is that my Christmas present? Yeah. Could I have that

1:26:48

I have the sweater. Still 2024

1:26:51

Dave Jones: Next. Next Christmas. already sent you your

1:26:54

Christmas razor for this year. You did you get it yet?

1:26:57

Adam Curry: Yeah. You actually. Now I feel like it's like a

1:27:01

heel. You sent me a Christmas present? Well,

1:27:03

Dave Jones: that's my strategy every year is to send you one and make you feel like crap.

1:27:06

Adam Curry: Well worked again. I haven't even received it. And I

1:27:08

feel like crap. I feel like crap in general today, just cuz I'm

1:27:12

sick. And now you've made me feel even sicker. Thanks, nuts

1:27:15

and everybody else and lots of Christmas presents. Yes, you do.

1:27:18

I know. You're good at that. You're Dave Jones: gonna like it. I just hope you have a DVD player.

1:27:24

Adam Curry: Yeah, I got I got something that yeah, I got a computer that will play that. Can't wait. Okay. Can't wait to

1:27:29

see what you've dug up. Now. Dave Jones. As

1:27:32

Dave Jones: long as you get a DVD player good. Yes. I do. I

1:27:36

guess now porn is not to porn from your guest premiere, buddy.

1:27:40

Okay. All right. Good. Good. Adam Curry: Because you get sued for that. $5,000 That's how it

1:27:45

goes. Five grand, maybe five grand. Ah, shall we say thanks

1:27:52

for people? Yeah, sure. We've been getting a couple of booths

1:27:56

here. As we move towards the holidays. Quite an odd isn't

1:28:00

nice booths here. Oh, hey, Kim. Dave Jones: Can I ask you something real quick Jeff, come

1:28:03

before you do that. What? I'm trying to get James on the show

1:28:07

because we usually have him on for Christmas week. What what

1:28:11

day, do you what's your Christmas look like?

1:28:14

Adam Curry: Oh, what was that? We're gonna have to coordinate

1:28:17

that. I got to take a look. Yeah, Dave Jones: that's what I figured. Yeah. You're gonna be

1:28:21

you might be busy with family. Oh,

1:28:23

Adam Curry: no, we have events you know. But it's all in and

1:28:28

around town. We're not traveling. But we do have event

1:28:31

we've got events, we got dinners and we got all kinds of stuff so

1:28:35

we figured we Dave Jones: always have to do him at night anyway because it

1:28:38

timezone site so we could do it like one night Why doesn't

1:28:41

Adam Curry: he just get up in the middle of the night? Dave Jones: If he's willing three o'clock in the morning?

1:28:46

Yeah, come on. He might not be coherent if he wants

1:28:49

Adam Curry: to be on the mighty podcasting 2.0 boardroom that'd

1:28:52

be a fun show. Thank you Dobby das are says blue. 7500

1:28:59

Satoshis. And he reminds me correctly. Ainsley. Costello

1:29:03

feed is up. Yeah, this is good. This is the live concert. This

1:29:07

is going to be to December 20 December 21 mandovi. Das is such

1:29:12

a hero. He he got the feed up he got the you know, connected the

1:29:17

stream. And he then went and checked every single podcast app

1:29:22

to make sure that you know what worked and what didn't guess

1:29:25

what everybody's got work to do. That was on test day. Yeah, test

1:29:29

day. Exactly. And so here he has links for pod fans for pod

1:29:33

verse. Podcast guru curio Kassar beautiful. So you can find that

1:29:40

Well, I guess you could find this in the in the chapters if

1:29:44

you go to the chapters, not not the Table of Contents where you

1:29:49

can find it as flipped by at this very moment as I'm talking

1:29:52

about it. Thank you Dobby Das. Now Sam Sethi boostin laid over

1:29:56

there in the UK to two booths here to boosted ramps and 1000s

1:30:00

SATs I'll go in reverse order activity streams are used. Oh,

1:30:05

it's actually the same. He boasts booster twice. Same, same

1:30:08

message. Thanks, Sam. activity streams are user generated

1:30:11

events. The user owns this just as the podcasts or owns the RSS.

1:30:16

All apps could publish activity streams to the podcast index.

1:30:20

Then like Saturn, I could see the action verb boost. And now

1:30:24

we have cross app comments. Dave Jones: Yep, yeah, it's yes. The protocol for for user

1:30:31

actions. Yep. Right. Okay,

1:30:34

Adam Curry: so we just everyone needs to build that in Okay done

1:30:38

taking care of Dave Jones: these rights. I mean, like, it's essentially

1:30:42

the, the, you know, his ideas boost that it integrates with

1:30:47

booster grams and weight because booster gram is just an action

1:30:49

that I users taking. So you can represent that with an X with an

1:30:53

activity stream event. Right? Would you absolutely for sure.

1:30:57

Adam Curry: We have Dred Scott. Even though he I think he's

1:31:01

supposed to be on a long weekend with his wife, but I don't know

1:31:04

he's Treb 45678 Thank you, brother. That's actual money

1:31:10

these days. With the bitcoin price salty crayon checks in

1:31:14

with a row of ducks had to reboot since pod verse is under

1:31:17

duress. Oh, no. Dave Jones: What's wrong? I

1:31:20

Adam Curry: don't know. I don't know it's under duress, health

1:31:22

karma boost for the pod father. Thank you new chair boosts for

1:31:25

the pod sage. Hopefully the new chair is beef milkshakes. 35 by

1:31:29

five in the pipe. Mike Newman checks in Draper boosts 77,777

1:31:39

SATs and no notes off the crayon again with 4040 and there's

1:31:44

comic strip blogger. Oh, love this 10,000 SATs wishing you a

1:31:49

Merry crip crypt mus he says crypto must and a happy new fork

1:31:55

Bitcoiners yo CSB.

1:31:58

Dave Jones: Alright GCSB with the Engel with the English puns,

1:32:01

yes, yes. Adam Curry: Crazy. What do you have on your list? Dave? That

1:32:04

was that was all the live boosts that came in? Dave Jones: Well, I've got I've got Oscar and the boys of

1:32:10

fountains in us $200 from PayPal.

1:32:13

Adam Curry: Oh boy. Thank you so much. Oh

1:32:16

Unknown: Sakala 20 is Blaze only Ambala Thank

1:32:20

Adam Curry: you. Those things help Dave Jones: me in the office this this podcast room was so

1:32:25

nice now with the new chairs with the assessment some time

1:32:31

this couple of nights ago rearrange and everything got

1:32:35

rearranged the reason I rearranged because I finally got a UPS battery backup unit. Oh, this is way to go, man. Yeah,

1:32:40

yeah. ordered that thing you sent it. It's pretty

1:32:43

Adam Curry: powerful. It'll run a lot of gear for for a while.

1:32:47

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. If it starts beeping at me, I'm going

1:32:50

to rip the stupid vapor out of it. I'm going to D solder that I

1:32:53

haven't Adam Curry: actually haven't heard it. I don't know if my

1:32:55

beeps or not. It's yeah, it's an it's an a server rack cabinet.

1:33:01

Dave Jones: So I haven't heard you gotta write yet a 19 inch rack. I

1:33:04

Adam Curry: do. I got I got one of those that you sit on the

1:33:06

floor. So it's like it's like a quarter rack height. And yeah, I

1:33:11

got all my stuff in there. Yeah, I got the got the five gigabit

1:33:16

fiber router in there. And I've got my start nine in there.

1:33:21

Dave Jones: I know drip? drips that heck, you already have a

1:33:23

UPS I tiga. Right? No, no. So

1:33:27

Adam Curry: I have the generator. So so when the power

1:33:30

goes out, there's always this 25 second delay in cases just a

1:33:33

brownout. So the studio stays on. And then the generator kicks

1:33:38

in. Everything's beautiful. Amen.

1:33:41

Dave Jones: I'm good now gold. Yeah. Dumb. I'm uptight. So.

1:33:45

Thank you, Oscar. Appreciate that. $200 Yes, thank you that's

1:33:50

very meaningful. Jean Everett 2222. Through fountain he just

1:33:56

says Adam Curry: boost boost boost. Gene

1:34:00

Dave Jones: bein 20 to 20 tubes erode ducts through cast Maddox

1:34:03

as a podcast app that integrates into download you to integrate

1:34:07

in a download, downloaded YouTube video would be awesome

1:34:11

as most YouTube downloads ended up being ad free.

1:34:14

Adam Curry: Now that I saw, there was a lot going on about

1:34:17

this. I saw Mitch was looking at it. And Alex gave said Well,

1:34:20

here's how you do it. And I don't know if anyone actually

1:34:22

took any action on that. Dave Jones: Yeah, from what I heard from what Alex said, it's

1:34:28

just at the heart of it's just an HLS stream, so it should work

1:34:33

Adam Curry: without anchor, so I guess we'll see any app that

1:34:37

will do this. Ainsley Costello video feed will also be able to

1:34:41

do this with a YouTube item. Suppose as the reason Okay, all

1:34:46

right, well, maybe I'll try it. Do it. I mean, how can I screw

1:34:51

up my feeds any worse than I already do? I mean, everything's

1:34:54

a mess. You've Dave Jones: had such success with lit I think you should try

1:34:57

this thing. It's just harder. Adam Curry: Listen Let is really working for me is John

1:35:01

Spurlock's making fun of me. Like,

1:35:05

Dave Jones: what was your time zones? Your time zone? Yeah,

1:35:07

well, I Adam Curry: mean, it's for me it's like this like AMPM is like

1:35:12

when I set it and then I don't check it and it's just, I need

1:35:16

to pay more attention. I need to pay more attention to it. It's

1:35:19

hilarious hilariously bad. Hey, some

1:35:22

Dave Jones: people are still posting on Mastodon will be live

1:35:24

in 15 minutes. So I think you're, you're already ahead of

1:35:28

the curve. Plus one to see this gene been 20 to 22. Another road

1:35:33

dose from Gene Benitez plus one to super chapters. And the way

1:35:36

that could integrate could be integrated with podcast hosts

1:35:40

existing chapter creation interfaces. It solves the UX

1:35:43

aspect in a very clean and simple way. Well, I

1:35:46

Adam Curry: didn't understand that at all. You remember super

1:35:48

chapters as we're Oh yes. Dovizioso super chapters. Yeah,

1:35:52

yeah. works beautifully. It's a great it's a great way to

1:35:56

explain it to people. Dave Jones: So Brian of London 1948 Happy Hanukkah Brian. Yes.

1:36:02

He says to cast magic he says I hate it but I agree. Posh

1:36:07

podcasting 2.0 no agenda and fucking pivot. I can't help

1:36:11

myself. Adam Curry: It's harsh, man. Yes, I can't help myself either.

1:36:15

I mean it's crazy how loyal I am to my hate Listen, which is

1:36:20

pivot it's it's unbelievable it's I'm very less like oh, it's

1:36:24

Tuesday. Oh it's Friday my hate listeners out yeah I can't wait.

1:36:28

isn't as Dave Jones: I've got a new hate on the media as my I didn't have

1:36:32

a hate Listen Adam Curry: well on the now. They had a repeat that a repeat

1:36:36

this midweek show. That was lame. I know. It was boring.

1:36:39

There's like from January on the media is a good hate. Listen.

1:36:42

And after the after the Dave Jones: Trump thing. I'm like they've got he's gotten me

1:36:48

by the short hairs. Adam Curry: I wish they were 2.0 boost them. I boost my hate.

1:36:54

Dave Jones: I would do that. Do 500 SATs a minute. Boost. Hey,

1:36:59

Adam Curry: what did I hear you now? 1001 SATs per minute?

1:37:03

Dave Jones: Yeah, you shamed me publicly shamed.

1:37:06

Adam Curry: I didn't shame you. I never said anything about it.

1:37:09

I have not mentioned my, my booths size at all on my stream

1:37:14

size at all. I have not streamed my my powerful stream. I have

1:37:20

not mentioned that at all. I keep I keep my support on the

1:37:27

QT. Dave Jones: I'm your co host and if you publicly revealed that

1:37:32

you have a fat stream as to reveal the size of mastering

1:37:37

Adam Curry: but again, I didn't reveal that my stream was fat.

1:37:41

It got Dave Jones: it got revealed. So I had to respond. So there's no

1:37:44

privacy Adam Curry: anymore. You know, man, look at this. Look at the

1:37:47

fatness of that guy stream. Dave Jones: Check out this enormous boost. RP 1984 4000

1:37:57

SATs to fountain says back in September I read a blog post

1:38:01

about set based advertising in response to Chris Fisher and a

1:38:04

discussion he had on office hours about the ad pocalypse

1:38:08

hitting podcasting by ideas similar to what you were talking

1:38:11

about and thought you maybe you'd like it. He has a link

1:38:14

here tools because it's like a blog post. Yeah, he says also

1:38:19

this is not a thought of it first boost. Many people thought

1:38:23

of it before I did PS 12345 Spaceballs boost is a boost

1:38:28

level over edubirdie network they even have for it.

1:38:32

Adam Curry: Spaceballs from the movie Spaceballs? I got it

1:38:34

Dave Jones: yeah, that was the 12345 was the combination I

1:38:39

Adam Curry: so I think that didn't fountain basically try

1:38:43

this. They tried to get the they would give people SATs for

1:38:47

listening to ads. I don't think it went anywhere. I think it

1:38:51

kind of petered out. So I'm not sure I'm not sure if I've never

1:38:54

really believed in that idea. Like, I'll let you know I'll

1:38:57

give you my time. I'll listen to your ads if you pay me I just

1:39:02

don't know this never quite felt right to me. I don't know. I've

1:39:06

never seen implementation.

1:39:09

Dave Jones: Karen it's mere mortals podcast 16292 fountains

1:39:13

has been awhile since I had an episode where I understood

1:39:15

almost nothing I guess are cool.

1:39:20

Adam Curry: Podcasts are cool. But I believe me I don't

1:39:25

understand either. chyron I'm just hanging on to Dave's

1:39:29

coattails. Rene

1:39:31

Dave Jones: nega paying three five to one sets through pod

1:39:39

verse he says we still have that stupid policy. Okay. All right.

1:39:44

That's interesting grammar says we still have that stupid taxes.

1:39:48

But the promise we could download not upload anything

1:39:50

anywhere except so oh him. I think he's talking about the

1:39:53

recordable media tax that you were talking about.

1:39:56

Adam Curry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Wait, and so he's in Holland

1:39:58

right now They probably they probably don't pay for it they

1:40:02

do pay for it so we have this commies

1:40:07

Dave Jones: stupid taxes with the promise we could download

1:40:10

not upload anything anywhere except software then they said

1:40:13

no more downloading and still taxes on everything was storage

1:40:16

everything I still download of course yeah wow you criminal

1:40:22

Adam Curry: we got your IP address you gotta let her come

1:40:24

in here my lawyer five grand Karen

1:40:27

Dave Jones: again 2222 from curio carry caster from the mere

1:40:30

mortals podcast. He says sent an email just clarify my problem

1:40:34

from the last episode. Hope it helps. Yes it did.

1:40:37

Adam Curry: We've already fixed your problem. We're going to fix it. Yeah,

1:40:40

Dave Jones: I will. I will put a XML export on the thingamajigger

1:40:45

Adam Curry: the thing in the JPI Yes, that's great. That's great

1:40:49

and Jaeger dot podcast and next thing you have a jigger,

1:40:54

Dave Jones: monthlies. We get to see pod verse $50. Thank you pod

1:40:57

verse. Mitch and Kreon. Brendon apod, page $25. Part gram $1.

1:41:03

Joseph maraca $5 Emilio Kendall, Molina $4, new media $1 and

1:41:09

basil Philip $25. Thank you, basil and Lauren ball. $24.20.

1:41:15

Thank you, Lauren. And that's our group. Adam Curry: Yeah, we appreciate these. These are this is value

1:41:18

for value. We've been talking about it. This is a great

1:41:22

example of how value for value works. And the proof is in the

1:41:26

pudding. Yeah, we're smoking her own dope here. Let me go take a

1:41:29

look at that. Yes, Italico, the tally coin stuff, you can go to

1:41:33

podcast index.org. Down at the bottom, there's two links. One

1:41:36

is for your Fiat fun coupons. That's for the PayPal. Another

1:41:42

one is we'll take you to our on chain Support Portal, which no

1:41:47

one has used since October 27. But of course, what we really

1:41:52

want you to do is get a modern podcast app. Thank you, Dame

1:41:54

Jennifer modern podcast apps.com. Fill up your filler up

1:41:59

and boost SEO to your heart's delight. And does what? It it's

1:42:08

interesting to see I guess, just before we end here, I'm seeing

1:42:12

more and more apps start to integrate the breeze SDK. I'm

1:42:18

reading about not not our apps, but you know, general lightning

1:42:21

apps. And and man, is the Albey must really be growing fast.

1:42:30

Because you know, they're they're really trying to keep everybody I guess under a million SATs in your wallet.

1:42:35

It's like, you know, please, we don't I guess they don't want

1:42:37

the responsibility, which I can totally understand. Yeah, for

1:42:41

Dave Jones: sure. I wonder, when do you think? Do you think

1:42:45

Royer? Somebody? He did a breeze SDK overview once before? Do you

1:42:50

think he'd be willing to do one just for the podcast developers?

1:42:53

Adam Curry: I would I think that would be fantastic. I know that

1:42:55

Steven bellows looked at it, but it's doesn't really work. Well,

1:42:58

for the PW A's. Yes,

1:43:01

Dave Jones: alpha first. Yeah, web apps are gonna be that's

1:43:04

gonna be tough. Adam Curry: Why is that?

1:43:07

Dave Jones: Well, I mean, because you got you got to have

1:43:09

your keys and everything visible. Like, if you're if

1:43:15

you're a web only app, and you don't have a server back end,

1:43:17

you you can't, you've really essentially can't have any

1:43:20

secrets. No. You know what I mean? Because you because it's

1:43:24

all going to be visible somewhere. Because the only thing there that the code that runs everything is right there

1:43:30

in the browser. So you can't hide it. So you can't he really

1:43:34

he can't even have like, like podcast index API tokens. It's

1:43:40

right there. Adam Curry: I thought curio Kassar use the server. Maybe I'm

1:43:43

wrong. Yeah, Dave Jones: Matthew, I'm not sure how he's doing it. But

1:43:47

that's just a general problem with PW A's and he may have like

1:43:50

one small back end server, but it might not be enough to do

1:43:52

sort of this for this level of processing. And

1:43:56

Adam Curry: actually, I thought that that lb was going to do an

1:43:59

integration with the breeze SDK. So maybe, maybe we still have to

1:44:04

ask well, first image we know we talked about if we get to the

1:44:11

Get out, guys. Yeah. I noticed that they didn't knock your door

1:44:16

down when you mentioned it before that like I got no time

1:44:19

for these podcasts. I hate to say hey, like no, do Nasir man

1:44:24

like come on Dave Jones: I've got it. I made a note of mustard to myself. Do

1:44:30

you got Adam Curry: a lot of notes? How are we going to how are we going

1:44:33

to finish out this year with all these notes there's so much to

1:44:35

do. Dave Jones: See Bumi and more. It's one of the 12 more it says

1:44:42

that Adam Curry: there's a number of more choices in our life. Okay,

1:44:47

all right. Dave Jones: All right. I get that note we good?

1:44:50

Adam Curry: Yes. All right, brother. Dave Jones: I wanted to say our hosting fees to like the end of

1:44:57

the year update on our hosting fees were current only paying

1:45:00

665 a month. Wow. Linode

1:45:04

Adam Curry: that's that's, that's up from what it was last

1:45:07

year, isn't it? Yeah, it's nearly

1:45:10

Dave Jones: 100 100 bucks. Yeah. And our Cloudflare bill a month

1:45:15

is 90 bucks. Adam Curry: So that's not too bad.

1:45:20

Dave Jones: No, it's not bad. That's not bad. We've got some

1:45:23

other stuff in there. Like, you know, we got to pay lawyers and accountants and all that good stuff. But yeah, that's our

1:45:27

primary. Those are those are two big ones. And

1:45:30

Adam Curry: and our notice I've been seeing is all the every

1:45:34

payment that goes to node stays on the node. We're pretty good

1:45:37

routing node, I think. Yeah. Oh,

1:45:39

Dave Jones: yeah. Forget about that. What how much is what's in

1:45:42

our bill? What's our bill? 202 voltage to voltage? Yeah, 30

1:45:48

years? Yes. Adam Curry: A little more. Maybe? Yeah, I think it's at

1:45:53

least 100 bucks a month. Probably more.

1:45:56

Dave Jones: Because it because he like he had to like give us

1:46:00

bigger discs or something. Yeah, Adam Curry: he had. Yes. All kinds of bigger stuff. We have a

1:46:05

very unique situation. It's like nobody has the amount of

1:46:09

transactions we have. It's It's outrageous. Insane. It's insane.

1:46:16

Dave Jones: Okay, did you know that are so every every

1:46:20

transaction that comes through our node, we sink down to a

1:46:25

MySQL database so that we can properly report our own taxes

1:46:29

and our oil and all that. I know you do that? Yeah. Yes. So we

1:46:33

have a cut every note every transaction that's ever come

1:46:36

through our lightning node, the pay podcast and this lightning

1:46:39

node we also have a copy in this MySQL database. Wow. Including

1:46:42

Adam Curry: all the to V records. Yes. Now that's that's

1:46:47

a data bundle. I'd like to mine that would be cool.

1:46:52

Dave Jones: It's where we is how we generate the V for the the

1:46:56

podcast. Adam Curry: Toss. Yeah, yes, the top top stats. Let's see how

1:47:00

many tops do we have today? While we're at podcast index?

1:47:04

dot top. Let me see today. It is the top 119

1:47:10

Dave Jones: Nice. Yeah, it was 169 last week.

1:47:13

Adam Curry: I see this this reads almost like I love it. I

1:47:18

got the the Italian guy up in fourth place for you started

1:47:24

Yeah, yeah, I always started with that. All sudden, there's

1:47:27

all these Italians like posting on my Twitter like lawyer bla

1:47:30

bla bla, bla, bla, bla bla booster. Grand Ball.

1:47:34

Dave Jones: Solid Italian right there. Adam Curry: This whole thing reads like boosted Grand Ball

1:47:39

Christmas comes but once a year, morning love from the door falls

1:47:43

bacon on my mind. Nice. Nice. So

1:47:48

Dave Jones: we have all those we have all those in the in the

1:47:51

database. And that database is now 21 gigs.

1:47:55

Unknown: Oh, cool. It's pretty big. Dave Jones: That's 21 gigs of that's 21 gigs of nothing but

1:48:02

lightning transactions. Gotta love it. Gotta love it three

1:48:05

years with a lightning transaction. So Adam Curry: do we archive that at a certain point or view? Move

1:48:10

it off into like, do send it to the mountain to tape tape drives

1:48:14

on the mountain. Dave Jones: Iron Mountain mountain. That'd be fun at

1:48:20

Adam Curry: Costco. This everyone should know about this

1:48:23

Costco does a 14 terabyte drive they're selling a single disc

1:48:31

Seagate 14 terabyte drive for 149 bucks.

1:48:36

Dave Jones: Holy crap. Adam Curry: That's that's that's pretty cheap, man. Oh,

1:48:41

Dave Jones: that's dirty for a 14 terabyte drive. Yeah.

1:48:44

external drive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 150 bucks. There it is.

1:48:47

Yeah. 149 Do you ever in your life, think that you would see

1:48:52

the day where we'd have 14 terabytes on a single disk?

1:48:55

Adam Curry: Well, considering my first hard drive was for my Mac

1:48:58

Plus, and it was an external 20 megabytes scuzzy drive, which

1:49:04

was, which was big. And I mean, that that that was like a, like

1:49:08

a school bag. That's how big it was. And this got the scuzzy

1:49:12

plug. My Dave Jones: dad My dad did some work for IBM a long time ago. He

1:49:16

was an RPG as 400 programmer. Oh, yeah. And he got this. He

1:49:23

got this little girl some sort of little pin or something. It

1:49:28

was like a commemorative thing. And it was a one kilobyte chip.

1:49:37

That was like Waco, like static RAM or whatever, in a cold core

1:49:42

memory or something like that. It was like this one megabyte

1:49:44

chip encased in like, a hard blue side or something like

1:49:48

that. It was like this little novelty thing like this is this

1:49:52

is awesome. You know, like is one one megabyte.

1:49:57

Adam Curry: Amazing. Dave Jones: Well The desk forever like you, you're looking

1:50:01

you just look at it. You're like, oh my god, that Adam Curry: was one megabyte. Well, do you remember? In order

1:50:07

to download a picture that was one megabyte it would take

1:50:12

literally an hour I think was one megabyte to an hour.

1:50:17

Dave Jones: And you just hoped that it was a progressive JPEG.

1:50:19

Adam Curry: Yeah. So you could see the chick unveil the black

1:50:25

Dave Jones: lacing happens as Adam Curry: exactly alright everybody now now we've gone too

1:50:30

far. Dave Have yourself a great weekend, brother. You going back

1:50:33

to the office? Dave Jones: Yep. Okay. Get to film better man. Yeah. Oh, no,

1:50:37

no, actually, I Adam Curry: I got a second wind here. That's good. No wonder

1:50:43

that smells so bad. No. Thank you all chat room. Thanks for

1:50:47

being here. Thank you for supporting us value to value

1:50:50

podcasting. 2.0 the board room comes back next week. See you

1:50:53

then. Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcasts

1:51:13

index.org For more information, go podcast.

1:51:19

That's a wow