0:00

Adam Curry: Oh, podcasting two point over April 26 2024 Episode

0:04

177 Can GPT Friday again hello everybody how you doing? Welcome

0:12

to podcasting. 2.0 This is where we discuss everything that's

0:16

really happening under the hood in podcasting, podcasting. 2.0

0:21

everything that we got going on a podcast index.org podcast

0:24

index dot social, Learn more at podcasting to.org We are the

0:28

only boardroom that has bleachers and beanbags. I'm Adam

0:31

curry here in the heart of the Texas Hill Country. And in

0:34

Alabama, the man who can move tags from items to channels and

0:37

back again, say hello to my friend on the other end one only

0:40

Mr. De Jones.

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Dave Jones: Did you send in our payment? Our payment? Yeah, for

0:50

the A for IAB membership. Adam Curry: We're compliant, bro. What do you mean? I don't I

0:56

don't. We don't have to actually do that. We just say we're

0:58

compliant. Isn't that not what I learned?

1:02

Dave Jones: I would prefer if I had to choose a tag the badge to

1:06

put on the site I would prefer when they said I be non

1:09

compliant. Adam Curry: That's now now now now now. Now. Now. Is that thing

1:14

falling apart? I mean, it megaphone is not a part of it.

1:18

Isn't that doesn't that kind of isn't that 30% of all of all

1:22

podcasts? Listening apps? Again, I don't I don't know. But no,

1:27

that was that doesn't make any difference. It's about the the

1:33

log for the megaphone but they got it. They got a lot of

1:35

business, don't they? megaphone, they got Romania. Oh yeah. They

1:38

got Rogan. Dave Jones: A lot of business, so maybe No, no, no. Do

1:42

Adam Curry: they have that? Yeah, I thought they had Rogan. megaphone feeds for rods, right. Yeah, that's right. But maybe

1:48

they maybe that's Grogan? Yeah, they got they got Rogan feeds

1:52

now, we got to make sure these numbers live up to expectations.

1:57

Dave Jones: Which requires not having the IB

2:00

Unknown: probably correct. Yeah. That's

2:04

Dave Jones: double checking this because I think initially Rogan

2:06

was not on megaphone and everybody was like What?

2:10

Unknown: No, I Adam Curry: think he changed overnight. I think I remember an

2:12

article or something that he that he turned over. I think

2:16

your went to. And Todd over there blueberry selling host

2:20

read ads. Now. That's nice. I can't wait. I can't wait for us

2:24

to do so. Unknown: Are we going to do host rails? No, of course. Yeah. Why

2:28

not? Host

2:35

Dave Jones: or your download? Or your or your download numbers.

2:38

Too low? Yeah, join the IB. We can jack them up by 10%.

2:42

Adam Curry: So I was looking at speaking of Spotify, I'm looking

2:45

at it all kind of clicked. You know, Spotify reported a net

2:52

profit. But was it net cash or some? It's some some scammy

2:57

words. But what they did is they bundled by from what I

3:02

understand when they added audiobooks. And now it makes a

3:07

lot of sense. If you add audio books to your app, then all of a

3:10

sudden you're a bundle app and you're not just a music app. And

3:15

therefore you can pay 25% Less royalties to artists.

3:21

Dave Jones: Whoa, wait what yeah, this is I looked into the

3:26

Spotify stuff that I this is all new to me to explain this to me.

3:29

Adam Curry: Okay, let me see if I can find it. Yeah, so the way

3:33

the rules work because audiobooks also have a they also

3:37

have royalties and stuff, I guess. Let me see where was

3:41

where was that he should there was a lot here here we go. from

3:45

finance, finance, US Finance as Yahoo Finance us.

3:49

Unknown: That's cool. Spanish, Spanish Yahoo. Yes. Spotify

3:53

Adam Curry: is music. Audio Book bundle means a lower royalty

3:57

rate for us songwriters, but company promises record payouts

4:02

Okay, that's always Dave Jones: sure. We don't have to but we're going to because we

4:07

love you. Adam Curry: Spotify is premium plans combining music and

4:10

audiobooks will mean a lower mechanical royalty rate for

4:13

songwriters on those plans the company has confirmed that's

4:18

interesting Dave Jones: what Where's this coming from? Like what what

4:23

legal legality is this related to

4:27

Adam Curry: mechanical rights? Dave Jones: So in every country or just the US are lazy,

4:33

Adam Curry: all mechanical rights are a worldwide thing. I

4:35

mean, this is this is okay. This is a publishing this. Let me

4:39

see. Let me see if I can find any official continue Orlando la

4:44

historia. Okay. So click here to read the rest of the story.

4:53

Okay, with the introduction of standalone audiobooks,

4:55

offerings, Spotify is now able to pay lower music licensing

4:58

rates for the music and An audio book bundle introduced in the US

5:03

in November 2023. The 2022 settlement agreement between the

5:07

national music Publishers Association and streaming

5:10

services included a carve out for bundles such as Amazon Prime

5:15

Apple Music plus Apple news, which the new audiobook offering

5:18

falls under such lower such plans lower the mechanical

5:22

licensing rates, the company pays in the US. Spotify is lower

5:26

royalty rates are retroactive, retroactive to march 1 2024.

5:31

Whoa, so, you know, that's a big deal. When you do like you're

5:36

you're not reporting profit, but net cash or something like that.

5:40

You can also be projecting into the future. So there's certain

5:44

expenses that you don't have to mention. It's kind of like the

5:48

inflation rate Core inflation, which doesn't include food,

5:50

housing and gas. Unknown: What about Super core? Super

5:55

Adam Curry: core takes out I mean, living you don't live is

5:57

just some stuff. Amazon deliveries

6:03

Dave Jones: is another bit Amazon deliveries and DoorDash.

6:05

Yeah, so Adam Curry: so that means that you know, they probably and also

6:09

with an increase in subscription price, that's probably how

6:12

they're, you know, how they jacked up those numbers. It's

6:15

great. I mean, it's a public company, I know how this works

6:17

is creative accounting. You know how this works. Who am I? Who am

6:21

I tell him who am I talking to? You Dave Jones: know, I mean, this. This is a great, this is a great

6:26

move, by the way, because if everybody else is doing it, this

6:31

test so that means that they they added audio books, not

6:35

because they give a crap about audio books. That's what they

6:38

don't tell a single audio book. Now.

6:44

Adam Curry: nmpa president CEO David Israelite had strong words

6:47

for the moon. When contacted for comment by variety to appear.

6:51

Spotify has returned to it, attacking the very current the

6:54

very songwriters who make its business possible. Spotify is

6:57

attempt to radically reduce songwriting payments by

7:00

classifying their music service as an audiobook boom bundle is a

7:03

cynical and potentially unlawful move. That ends our period of

7:07

relative peace. We're on. We're on the warpath. You want to

7:12

stand for their perversion? Dave Jones: Rocket noises or something? They're going to go?

7:17

Adam Curry: Well, if you want that, oh, yeah, it

7:20

Dave Jones: was this piece will not stand is invalid piece is

7:24

what it is. Adam Curry: We need to have. We need where's my rocket ships? I

7:29

got rocket sock homes. Oh, here we go. We need cruise missile.

7:37

Net pops, you need more than that. Yes, somebody like this.

7:40

We will not stand for this Spotify, we will get you we'll

7:43

see real quick attack. Snap props. Yeah, it's

7:52

Dave Jones: much more interesting with that. Otherwise, it's kind of boring.

7:54

Adam Curry: But that that totally made sense to me.

7:57

Totally makes sense at all. And all the oil people love our

8:00

audio books, you really don't know if that's true. Well,

8:04

Dave Jones: this book, their audio book, this makes so much

8:07

more sense because their audio book deal is awful. Like you get

8:13

you're not even in the same league with like Audible, like

8:18

as far as like cost goes is not even close. So it doesn't that

8:22

they don't care if they sell a single audio book. This is all

8:26

about getting this is similar to their previous thing where they

8:29

had where they, they clearly were using the increase in

8:37

monthly active users from anchor to get their MA You rate up on a

8:43

month over month basis. So they can retain their their lower

8:47

royalty deal to the music companies. And this is going to

8:50

happen this is going to they've they've coiled they've like

8:54

coiled the spring now. So that it's it's ready because now what

9:00

they're going to do is I don't know if you saw the little bit of news where they said they're going to start basically joining

9:10

Spotify for podcaster. accounts to

9:13

Adam Curry: I didn't Yeah, I saw but I didn't really focus on it.

9:15

What does that mean? Yeah, Dave Jones: so right now they're two separate accounts you see

9:19

you have what you have is a historic anchor account. So when

9:23

you sign up for Spotify for podcasters, you're signing up,

9:26

it's different than your Spotify account, okay? What they're

9:28

gonna do is they're gonna migrate these users over to

9:31

using a Spotify account. So now when you sign up for Spotify for

9:35

podcasters you're going to be using you have to use a Spotify

9:39

account so that immediately they have like six roughly million

9:45

podcast on Spotify for podcasters. So as they migrate

9:49

these user accounts over to be Spotify accounts. They're gonna

9:53

get they're gonna I mean these this is going to make that NAU

9:56

number go up a whole lot. Going forward, if you want to have as

10:02

an essentially what is an anchor account, you got to sign up for

10:05

Spotify. So it's like a win win, you know, to keep that ma you

10:09

truck rolling. Adam Curry: I'm glad I don't run a public company anymore. It's

10:14

so painful. Dave Jones: It's paying the other. The other thing I took

10:18

out of the Spotify earnings, though, was that when they break

10:21

it out in the premium users, meaning the people that pay for

10:24

the service monthly, their share of revenue was $3.2 billion for

10:32

the quarter ad supported, basically the free users. The ad

10:37

income from those their share of revenue was 389 million. That's

10:42

more than 10x Less Wow, revenue from ads. That's that's just

10:49

pointing Adam Curry: numbers. Yeah, that's low.

10:54

Dave Jones: It's, it tells me like when you give somebody a

10:57

chance to just flat out pay for something they do it just make

11:00

you make more money. Yeah. The ad and the ad route is just

11:03

selling yourself short. Well, not. Adam Curry: Not in all cases, not in all cases. New York Times

11:09

had a a big expose a on NPR brought clips. Oh, you did? Oh,

11:20

let me read the the what caught my eye. The title of the piece

11:24

is inside the crisis at NPR, the crisis. And speaking of bundles,

11:30

adoption of NPR is podcast subscription bundle. NPR plus,

11:36

has also lagged behind competitors subscription

11:39

businesses, according to internal documents obtained by

11:41

the New York Times, those crafty Times reporters. About 51,000

11:47

people subscribe to NPR plus as of early March, and the product

11:51

has generated $1.7 million in revenue since it was introduced

11:55

November 22. Yikes, that's that's unexpectedly low. In late

12:05

2022, NPR began selling fewer sponsorships part of an overall

12:10

downturn in the ad market, which I mean is that not Can we can we

12:13

confirm this now anyone actually copped to it? But so for the

12:16

first time since the COVID 19 pandemic, that Mr. Lansing then

12:21

the CEO and his team plan for NPRs revenue to remain flat in

12:24

2023. He wasn't prepared for what happened next. When January

12:29

arrived, the bottom the bottom the bottom, the bottom fell out

12:35

of the digital ad market. It did he said in an interview

12:39

sponsorships fell $34 million compared with the previous year.

12:44

And yet somehow the overall podcast advertising market is

12:48

now 18 billion. It's amazing. It's doing great. I know that

12:53

people are like screw these guys. You guys hate advertising.

12:57

You know? That's not true. We just shot in Froyo

13:02

Dave Jones: is enjoyable then. Adam Curry: And then it goes on to love people. No, of course,

13:08

that's 10% of our revenue and you can't go back and get it

13:12

it's like an airplane that takes off with half the seats sold.

13:15

Once it's gone it's gone. That's an odd comment.

13:18

Dave Jones: That's a weird metaphor. What Adam Curry: does that even mean? Well, if it's a Boeing you know

13:24

Unknown: just wait for the door to pop then more people will

13:27

jump in. And it's coming back to the ground just wait on it but

13:30

pardon but part of what really Adam Curry: got me is was just showed me how tone deaf these

13:36

people are. Because you know, they there was a lot of dei

13:40

involved in, in in changing around stuff. And all we really

13:44

have to, we really have to diversify our content. Right. So

13:51

it came as a disappointment to some people on MPRs board last

13:55

fall when they were presented with new internal data, showing

13:58

their efforts had not moved the needle much with the black and

14:01

Hispanic podcast listeners, black listeners and wait until

14:05

you hear what they did. Black listeners made up roughly 11% of

14:09

an accolade on say African Americans so incorrect. Black

14:13

listeners made up roughly 11% of MPRs audience in the second

14:16

quarter of 2023, unchanged from the same period in 2020. So

14:20

three years no change. According to the data. According to the

14:23

data. The data further showed that the share of Hispanic

14:25

listeners went up only two percentage points in 2020 to

14:29

account for 16% of the total audience. 120 20 survey from Pew

14:34

Research found that of the people who named NPR as their

14:38

main source for political and election news 75% were white

14:43

more than any other outlet except Fox News, Fox News.

14:47

You're number two on the on the white supremacist list. Yes, but

14:51

then But then here's what they did. And this is what's just

14:54

insulting. I mean, these people I think are actually racist.

14:58

They don't even know it and NPR is efforts to diversify itself

15:02

and its audience didn't always live up to the expectations of

15:05

the people who work there. During a round of layoffs last

15:08

year, NPR cut louder than a riot, a hip hop podcast that

15:12

examines black and queer issues. So here's the meeting Dave. With

15:18

a bunch of white dudes sitting around we need to up our black

15:20

listenership. Yeah, let's do some Hip Hop throwing some

15:23

queers. It'll work. No problem. Yeah, the black Americans don't

15:28

even want to be seen as black Americans. They just Americans.

15:31

They want news like everybody else. But no, you're gonna

15:34

pander with a hip hop podcast. It's sad. It's really sad.

15:39

Dave Jones: That the agree with John Spurlock the comments on

15:42

that article were Unknown: what was I haven't actually looked at the comments

15:47

I had. I'm Dave Jones: like him. I never read comments on anything. But

15:51

but the comments on that article were very good. And they like to

15:54

just read through the, the, the, the leadership of NPR should

16:00

read those comments because their people are telling them

16:02

exactly what's up. I mean, Adam Curry: okay, what do you know? What do you remember any

16:07

of the comments? I can't actually see it because it's paywall now suddenly, for me,

16:11

Dave Jones: somebody called it a grievance based network. Wow.

16:16

And I think that's really what if that's probably the best

16:20

summation of the comments was that they people just don't like

16:26

listening to the to a grievance based network. Everything is

16:31

just negative, and victimization and grievance based. Yeah. And

16:38

it's just, it just got he just got tired of it. People got just

16:41

get tired of that thing. You Adam Curry: know, where are you going seeing with with no agenda

16:45

that we're backing off a little bit on the amount of mainstream

16:48

media clips we play? Because it's exactly that, and people

16:52

get to hurt. But I don't want to hear you guys. Tell me what's

16:54

going on. I don't want to hear the clips this time makes me

16:57

tired. Dave Jones: I get it digging. Yes, fatiguing that. I didn't

17:01

realize, but just a side comment. I didn't realize that

17:03

NPR staff was sag AFTRA. Oh, that have to be? Yeah, I didn't

17:09

realize that, that the actors? Well,

17:12

Adam Curry: well, you know, it was after and sagen after merge.

17:15

So they were, I've been, I've always been after, and I've

17:19

always been sad or sag eligible, because we're actually both

17:22

eligible because they're gonna pay dues anymore because I didn't have any union gigs. But then they emerged and so

17:28

technically would just be one payment. Dave Jones: After after, it was the sort of media side of the

17:33

Adam Curry: American Federation of Television and Radio Artists.

17:37

Okay. Dave Jones: Okay. All right. Adam Curry: That was broadcast broadcast, basically.

17:41

Dave Jones: Okay, that, that, I guess, you know, my thing is,

17:45

Catherine Maher got a bunch of Ms. She's taking the heat.

17:49

Adam Curry: Yeah, this is the new, the new CEO of NPR, who? I

17:55

mean, we've looked at her from an intelligence angle. She has

17:59

quite an interesting background. Sure, but and you know, and

18:03

certainly she came from signal the signal foundation before

18:06

that Wikimedia, which I think everyone knows is is, you know,

18:10

very managed, very managed, then not by people

18:14

Dave Jones: at the International Monetary Fund.

18:17

Adam Curry: Every word Yeah. World Economic Forum. And

18:21

that's, yeah, that's just a drinking club. But still, you

18:24

know, she's clearly a globalist. But then a lot of these tweets

18:27

of hers resurface. And it seems like it's just more of the

18:30

grievance stuff that the listeners, or at least the

18:33

readers of The New York Times don't want to hear on their NPR

18:36

stations. Dave Jones: What I know people are no people like this, like

18:42

Adam Curry: Katherine or commenters know,

18:46

Dave Jones: like, Katherine. I know people who look at the

18:50

world like this and talk like this, like, so. I did. I did

18:54

what what all good researchers should do I use the podcast

18:58

index API people search in search for Katherine. Oh,

19:02

Adam Curry: right Dave Jones: on Excellent. Yeah. To find all of the all of the

19:06

podcast episodes that she's been interviewed in live listening. I

19:10

like it. Excellent. And I'm telling you, it was awful. She,

19:17

when I say I know people like this. Not trying to be nosy.

19:20

Adam Curry: Are there people like this in Alabama? I mean,

19:22

oh, yeah. No, for sure. Dave Jones: You mean people that think they're smarter than you?

19:26

Yeah. Unknown: That's what we're talking about. Yeah. The

19:29

Dave Jones: people like this are insufferable. They just will not

19:32

stop talking about in arcane terms about just the, the most

19:38

miniscule that like the it's just all minutia all the time.

19:43

And it's it's clouds of connected terminology that

19:48

you're trying to, like. It's like a fog. You're trying to get

19:52

through you listen to 20 minutes of it, and you're like, I don't

19:55

even know what she just said. You

19:58

Adam Curry: are You gotta you gotta send us Send me some

20:00

links. This sounds like no agenda material. Oh,

20:04

Dave Jones: man, I brought a bra. These clips are unnecessarily long just so that you can understand what she's

20:09

like. Okay. The, so she speaks like Chad GPT so let's just call

20:15

her cat GPT. Okay. Unknown: very flowery flowery? Yes. Yes.

20:21

Dave Jones: Catherine is Cat GPT. So when it's like if so, if

20:26

you went into a laboratory and said, like, it's 2024 Build me

20:32

the perfect NPR CEO. Yeah, they would build you this lady. She

20:38

talks about governance, constantly institutional

20:43

governance. They're not looking for truth. They're looking for

20:48

consensus on what is not disinformation. Like, there is

20:52

so it's just mind bogglingly boring.

20:56

Adam Curry: I'm getting the electricity ready to create her

20:58

in a lab. Dave Jones: So clip one is she starts Where's where's this

21:06

from? What Unknown: podcast? Is this from? This is from the podcast?

21:11

Dave Jones: Possible. Think that's the day we'll need to

21:14

make sure that. Okay, it's from possible. Possible? Yes, this is

21:21

Reid Hoffman's podcast. Adam Curry: Oh, another fine specimen. He's a big donor. I

21:26

think he's a big NPR don't you should be a big NPR donor.

21:29

Dave Jones: I feel light. So this this. This was from January

21:36

24 of this year. I feel like I feel like this was sort of a

21:42

tryout for the NPR CEO gig. Some of the questions were seemed

21:48

oriented in that direction. Oh, Adam Curry: that would make sense. You have to go through

21:51

even Okay, you got to do reads. Isn't the on the board is a

21:54

board I've been feeling that he's a This isn't Reed Hoffman

21:58

at Reed. Hoffman and PR. So he's the Salesforce guy. Right.

22:03

LinkedIn, LinkedIn, I'm sorry. Yeah, let me see. Yeah, I have a

22:07

feeling he's the only appearance board. He would be the kind of

22:10

guy that you would have to go by, you know, it's like, Oh, you

22:13

gotta go talk with Reed before we can get you in, you know,

22:16

big. If you get reads endorsement, then you're good to

22:18

go. Dave Jones: Yeah, I can't tell from here. But it would not.

22:26

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all. But this sounds like I

22:28

think this is this was prior to her being at NPR, of just prior.

22:33

And this just feels such like a like a job interview or at least

22:39

just a sort of a face TAs and FaceTime with somebody that was

22:44

already probably had taken the job because in a couple, a

22:47

couple points in the interview, she started, she starts

22:50

referencing to she's using the term wiki, Wikimedia in like

22:56

past tense, right, and that kind of thing. So but she's in this

23:00

clip when she's talking about institutional. There's two clips

23:06

are institutional trust. As hard to see it's, it's almost

23:10

unclimbable, but it was like, it's like institutional trust.

23:15

And how did it it comes from the black breakdown institutional

23:23

trust comes from diversification. Unknown: I think the internet has been catastrophic for trust,

23:29

but perhaps not for all of the reasons we might think, when I

23:32

say catastrophic, I think that what has happened is not that

23:37

the internet has destroyed trust it is the internet has surfaced

23:42

fissures within systems and, and allowed them to grow and grow

23:48

publicly at an exponential rate. And so when, for example, we

23:53

think about trust in institutions, which is something

23:56

that I'm very interested in, and that comes to sort of

23:58

institutional governance, institutions fit for purpose.

24:01

And I mean, institutions in the abstract and in the literal

24:04

sense. So the institution of universal suffrage is an

24:06

institution, although doesn't have like a brand name. The

24:11

issues that we've seen there is that many of these institutions

24:16

were built around a sort of homogenous population that they

24:22

were serving. They were not terribly responsive, both in

24:26

terms of accountability to that population. And then when we

24:30

started to see increasingly heterogeneous populations, due

24:34

to immigration, diversification, civil rights, movement, etc,

24:38

etc. We started to see how those those institutions were were not

24:44

actually sort of fit for purpose. What the Internet has

24:48

done is it has exposed those fissures in ways that are

24:52

related to both. We now interface with all sorts of

24:56

technologies, platforms and services that are hyper

24:59

responsive to Do our needs in and have created an anticipation

25:04

of a much more frictionless, much more productive set of

25:10

processes services, outcomes SLA functional human SLAs human

25:15

Adam Curry: SLA s really? Hey, yeah, I thought you would like

25:19

humanist human SLAs service level agreements seriously?

25:25

Dave Jones: So imagine, imagine 45 minutes of that. I mean,

25:30

Adam Curry: I mean, what did you? What do you think she

25:32

actually said? Dave Jones: I know exactly what she said, Because I listened to

25:36

it and no lie like eight times. I think I know exactly what she

25:41

said. What she's saying here, is that, that NPR, okay, so is she

25:47

talking about institutions? Is

25:50

Unknown: NPR, NPR? Yeah, yeah, that it qualifies

25:54

Dave Jones: under that under her definition. So she's saying that

25:57

NPR was built to serve a specific group of people, that

26:04

that group of people being upper class white people. And that's

26:10

the true problem with it as an institution that that's how it's

26:14

broken. Okay, that's the truth that that was that it didn't

26:18

just break. I Adam Curry: honestly, I would still say just upper class. I

26:23

don't know if NPR was specifically servicing white

26:27

people. I mean, you know, Cory Booker percent of

26:29

Dave Jones: their audience is white is according to the stats.

26:32

So that's what this is. But this is her, you know, this is this

26:36

is her frame of reference here. Yes, I got it. She's saying the

26:41

internet, like social media, YouTube, podcasting, et cetera,

26:45

just exposed that already existing problem. So to her the

26:51

core issue and NPR is that it was only serving a core audience

26:57

of rich white people in the internet, just exposed What was

27:02

our that existing problem? And I mean, this, if you look at John,

27:07

like John Lansing there previously, yeah, this is very

27:10

much on point with what he was trying to do with a company when

27:13

he was there. He was trying to he was trying, he was very much

27:17

on the same mindset. Evidently, he was trying to change that.

27:22

But the problem is, if you change MPRs target audience,

27:26

what you have is no longer in PR. Well, you don't have

27:30

something different. Adam Curry: What this says to me, what this says to me is this

27:36

is proof. You can't monetize the network. When because people who

27:42

want who like even like NPR programming, because that's what

27:46

your podcast app does for you. I put it together. I got my own

27:51

podcast network of shows that I like, that's what changed?

27:57

Dave Jones: Well, I think what they did well, I think, yes, and

27:59

I think, but I think they looked at their they looked at their

28:03

audience and said, it's, it's a bunch of rich white people. Oh,

28:07

that's how they looked at it. For sure. Yeah, yes. And then

28:10

they said, so what we need to do is change ourself, and we'll

28:15

change the audience. But the problem is when you change yet,

28:22

is when you do that you don't you no longer what you have,

28:25

what you've created now is no longer NPR. You have something

28:30

different that's, and that's very much in line with what the

28:33

commenters on the New York Times article, were saying they, they

28:36

were saying that over and over, they're saying I feel alienated.

28:39

What is this thing that I'm listening to it didn't used to

28:42

they, these stories are like, they're talking different than

28:46

they did 20 years ago. It's boring. Now. It's Bah, blah,

28:49

blah. And so like changing your audience is fine. If if what you

28:56

want at the end of the day is a completely different audience.

28:59

That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that necessarily. But

29:02

you have to stop and ask if that audience if that different

29:06

audience wants you. Yes, yes. Well, also they might and they

29:10

might not. I mean, you, you know that you already like, you know,

29:13

you already have a committed audience. And I'm just talking

29:17

purely about NPR here. I'm just trying to be blunt. If you're

29:20

NPR, you know, you have a committed audience of rich white

29:23

people that every year get about $100 million worth of tote bags.

29:29

But is this new audience that you're changing to? Are they

29:31

going to do the same thing? The answer, we see the answer, the

29:35

answer is no. That's how you lose $30 million. Yeah, it's

29:39

because Adam Curry: well, in so radio, then there's a whole bunch of

29:45

things going on here. I mean, what I ultimately see is the

29:48

we've seen a very, very slow collapse of broadcast across the

29:52

board that the newspapers are done is done and but there's

29:57

always going to be a couple that make it obviously yeah, that

30:00

hang on to that, you know, we still have, we still have a ham

30:03

radio stations that that are hanging on, you know, a ham

30:06

radio networks but but basically is gone. The In fact, the main

30:12

market that radio stations are supposed to serve is their local

30:17

home market that's gone, that that by itself is gone. That's

30:23

what the internet data is, oh, I can I can listen to a market of

30:28

interests, you know, doesn't have to be a geographical

30:30

market. There's other offers, if you want to know what's going on

30:35

in New York City. Besides, you know, the the morning radio

30:40

shows, which coincidentally in general, are basically one guy

30:44

like Elvis Duran at z 100. He has 20 stations across the

30:48

country. So he's talking to all different kinds of markets at

30:51

the same time, not just New York. So this, this collapse, I

30:55

think, is accelerating. And that's what you're seeing here.

30:58

Also the cost the overhead, that's why they put so much.

31:03

They you know, they brought their radio values to

31:05

podcasting, they put up you know, $1,000 Neumann

31:09

microphones, it said, this will work fine. We can have, you

31:13

know, 15 people on radio labs or more even, it's like, no, no,

31:17

this certain, that's not the economics anymore. It's the same

31:20

thing with streaming video. And streaming video is going to have

31:24

this exact same problem. You know, Disney is a great example.

31:29

The Marvel Cinematic Universe, well, you know, we're catering

31:32

to to, to kids who identify with white superheroes, we got to

31:36

bring in some gay lesbians as black lesbians. And they're now

31:40

the superheroes and then so you ultimately start alienating both

31:44

sides pandering. And what is this? Yes,

31:47

Dave Jones: that's what I think happened to NPR here. They

31:50

decided they wanted to diversify, diversify their

31:52

audience. And in doing so what they ended up with is having no

31:57

increase in black and Hispanic listeners and a decrease in

32:00

white listeners. Yeah. So they basically went in, in reverse

32:05

they the new the new audience they wanted. And again, there's

32:09

nothing wrong with the what they wanted. The new but that new

32:12

audience they were wanting never materialized. No. It never

32:15

Adam Curry: got it wasn't there. The audience was never there for

32:18

what they were making. Yeah, it turns Dave Jones: out black and Hispanic people just don't care

32:21

about NPR. That's fine. Yeah. Like you can't make them care.

32:27

No. And, you know, they, they, those populations, by and large,

32:31

evidently have, you know, media they already listened to, and it

32:34

suits them just fine. Yeah. So so they, so NPR, just basically

32:38

just foot gun to itself. And they didn't start by by laying

32:44

off and chopping a bunch of radio people killed the

32:47

podcasters, Adam Curry: they shot the horse that actually had a chance.

32:52

Dave Jones: Your old audience feels alienated and now you're

32:55

new, the new audience never showed up. And so that's like a

32:58

recipe for bad times. Click clip two is like, I think clip two is

33:04

how a glimpse of you know if you think that she's going to fix

33:07

things at NPR, the clip two, it'll give you a glimpse of of

33:10

that future. Unknown: We've also seen that we now have the ability to record

33:16

in real time with with examples of where those gaps actually

33:20

are, which make the the the failures of those institutions

33:26

even more evident to a greater number of people. That to me is

33:30

sort of the primary issue relative to trust in this day.

33:34

And age is not really around, oh, my goodness, my algorithm is

33:39

serving me information that I can't trust. It is actually

33:42

around a set of expectations about how institutions should

33:45

function in our lives, and are and where those institutions are

33:49

falling down is responsive institutions that are consistent

33:53

and accountable in their purpose and effective in their service

33:56

delivery. Absolutely. Then there are questions of like, well, why

33:59

is the media not trusted? And, you know, what does? What does

34:03

sort of social media have to do with all of that? And I think

34:06

that those are useful questions, as are the questions around

34:08

what, you know, what is AI going to do to are like the

34:12

construction of false information. But I think that

34:15

they are secondary questions to this primary one around what is

34:18

the internet shown to us about the institutions that have

34:22

historically governed our nation's our lives and where are

34:27

they not fit for purpose? And I think that this is actually a

34:30

really important and essential question. If for those of us

34:34

like myself, who believe very foundationally that institutions

34:38

should be a responsive to all people, but that institutions

34:42

are perhaps the most important part of stable democratic rights

34:47

respecting representative governance. Dave Jones: She's not doing it she's not going to change a

34:56

single thing to her. To her, she said Things like trust in media

35:01

are secondary issues that we can talk about those later. So what

35:07

she's she was cut, she came into this gig with the idea of which

35:14

basically with the exact same frame of reference that they

35:17

already had, that has been shown to be a complete failure. So

35:23

Plan A didn't work. And Plan B is basically a bunch of question

35:28

marks. I don't know what to do. Adam Curry: Well, they're also NPR severely hampered. I mean,

35:33

that's the history of NPR, with the local station strategy is

35:38

just hampering. That's the whole problem. They have a network of

35:42

stations. And and those stations by programming, some of the make

35:46

programming Sella back to the network. That idea is just over

35:50

I was talking to I don't know if I talked about this, I my buddy

35:54

wanted to see him in Dallas for 60s, this brother came and

35:57

actually knew his brother, but his older brother before I knew

36:00

Vic, and Steve was the was like a junior engineer at the time,

36:06

but he later became the senior engineer of big broadcast

36:10

companies. I think it was Emma's first and then it was in Clear

36:14

Channel. And so and he knows a lot and the television stations,

36:18

the local television stations, they're done. That, you know, a

36:22

local ABC affiliate is done is all over. They're going to

36:26

close. There'll be bought, and they'll they may do one program

36:30

to try and do some local news. But the the network's they don't

36:35

want to pay for anything anymore. It's like no, no, it's

36:39

all closing all of that the network node model of broadcast

36:44

radio and television is gone. Dave Jones: Is it because it's so like our, for instance, our

36:50

local ABC, CBS, NBC Fox affiliates, you're saying that

36:54

those things are in television, those things are going to just

36:57

be gone? Yeah, Adam Curry: they really have no reason to be broadcasting

37:01

anymore. I mean, yeah, they're still going to try terrestrial

37:04

digital broadcasting, but it's really over. The model has

37:08

broken because you just you sell you can insert as at a local

37:13

level, you don't need a local sales first. You know, all of

37:15

that stuff is gone. Gone. Gone. And it's way too expensive.

37:20

Dave Jones: Is that a drag? financially? Yeah. mothership?

37:23

Oh, Adam Curry: big time. Yeah. And the motherships they've all

37:26

expanded into all these additional businesses. The ABC

37:30

now is of course owned by Disney, but they, you know,

37:33

they're trying to divest of ESPN and the in this, sometimes

37:37

consolidation doesn't work out too good. If if if things you

37:41

know, if the if if the world changes, and this is what I love

37:44

so much about podcasting, this is what I love, the audience

37:49

gets to determine what their, their their menu is, what they

37:54

like listening to how fast they like listening to it.

37:58

Unknown: I'll add that. Adam Curry: Unfortunately, yeah, well, that's, you know, that's

38:02

my personal beef. But ultimately, you know, the

38:05

technology is there, you can do whatever you want. And, and as

38:09

we've seen, the, the audience also determines if I want to

38:12

hear ads or not, they'll just load an ad blocker. And that's

38:16

coming, that we basically have that in podcasting. It's called

38:20

the Skip 32nd button. That's a form of an ad blocker. Everyone

38:24

has it. And everyone raises their hand. Yeah, I skip the

38:27

ads. So so something is fundamentally broken. And also

38:33

the, because of the supply and demand, you know, the days of,

38:39

you know, the NPR because I saw the numbers, the NPR Morning

38:42

Edition host they each make, you know, 400 grand, if that's,

38:46

that's your will pay, yeah, that's, that's over, you just

38:49

gonna have to get by with less and, you know, make an

38:52

outstanding product. And you'll be okay. And subsequently, the

38:56

idea of I have to be number one. Because if you're not number

39:01

one, or have the most downloads or the biggest audience, those

39:05

days are gone, too. I mean, there's always going to be your

39:08

top dog and something that everyone's crazy about, and

39:10

there will always be infrastructure for that. But

39:13

it's but the people who can actually get in there 1% will be

39:16

0.01%. And the most the you know, the most interesting stuff

39:21

won't even be there anymore. Dave Jones: I didn't realize that, that in prs. I didn't

39:30

realize that they've only been around since 1971. Yeah, that

39:33

Adam Curry: was when the Corporation for Public

39:35

Broadcasting was created. Dave Jones: Yeah, that was surprising that they're that

39:40

young. And Adam Curry: also, they really, they really started to rely a

39:44

lot more on underwriting. Yeah, yeah, of course, it was pure out

39:50

pure advertising in the podcast market. And so they lost that

39:54

value for because when you hear the NPR pitch, you know, a lot

39:58

of you and I listened to one NPR To show religiously on the

40:01

media, on the media, and and I've actually sent the money for

40:06

it because I felt so disgusting. I had to send some money. But

40:12

now I know that it's not going to on the media is going to NPR

40:15

and that makes me feel icky. Because I really liked that. I

40:20

declined the tote bag. I really, you know, they, you know, if, if

40:25

pivot if they asked me for money, I'd send the money. Stuff

40:29

that I listened to I will support that and they kind of

40:32

let that go, but their pitch is now well if everyone sent $1 We

40:36

wouldn't even having this conversation. Yeah, that's not

40:39

gonna work. That and you're also devaluing you're devaluing your

40:45

product? Well, is it really just worth one buck? You know, what

40:48

is it worth to you? Does it brighten your day when these are

40:51

very easy pitches, but instead they went for Squarespace and

40:55

you know, all the other stuff with a with a code with a code

41:00

bond, Gino? You know, they went that route and yeah, then you

41:05

live and die by the ad market. And and if you can't see that

41:10

CPMs are always a race to the bottom downloads race to the

41:14

bottom, particularly when you have an ever expanding universe.

41:19

Dave Jones: The original 1970s npr logo is pretty killer. And

41:24

Adam Curry: now you also see even though James won't write

41:27

about it, but you know Megan Markel ba big announcement with

41:32

the limonada. But there's no money. That's why she's not

41:37

doing it. They say, Well, you know, we can probably get your

41:39

50 grand on the ads, maybe 100 and 100 100,000. May be but

41:45

that's advertising based. You know, she has no relationship

41:50

with the audience. Dave Jones: For me, it's just, it's yeah, it's just like the,

41:56

like the Obama stuff. A Obama's same thing. Exactly. Yeah. And

42:01

Brene Brown, honestly, there's just no, no, there's no, there's

42:04

no, there's no organic connection. And let's be

42:07

Adam Curry: really honest about it. He's my friend. But Joe did

42:11

not get $250 million. You know, every report says, could be

42:17

worth up to. Yeah, right. You know, based upon ad sales

42:22

performance. Yeah. And probably, I mean, I don't know if Spotify

42:28

sells, if they cut it, because I think originally they had a deal

42:32

with YouTube. And he let Spotify deal with YouTube and add money

42:35

there. And so I'm not sure I don't know anything about the

42:37

deal. But for sure, I know when you're jacking into Joe Rogan's

42:43

podcast every 15 minutes with an ad, just bones right in the

42:47

middle of it. We're scraping the bottom of of what we're doing

42:51

here. Dave Jones: Yeah, you were telling me about that. I'm not a

42:55

listener to his show, unless there's somebody a specific

42:58

guest. I specifically want to hear, but you're telling me

43:01

about about the new, like the ads now. They're pumping them in

43:05

all the time, every 15 minutes. It used to be that way used to

43:08

just be a bunch of pre rolls, and then there was no ads during

43:10

the show. Yeah, no,

43:12

Adam Curry: no. Well, that everyone, of course, skip those.

43:15

But those were the early days. You know, I was like, oh, you

43:17

know, you only had 10 minutes of ads. Everybody knew 20 clicks.

43:22

Pam there. And these are hosted ads that Joe doing the host read

43:28

ads. And honestly, you know, he loves every product and uses

43:32

every single product, I'm sure. Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, for sure. They're all in his garage,

43:37

Adam Curry: you know. So, but and I think he also I think also

43:42

he lost some influence to a degree.

43:46

Dave Jones: Really, from what listen by by

43:48

Adam Curry: not being on open podcast. I think it hurt him.

43:51

You know, Dave Jones: not being on YouTube.

43:54

Adam Curry: I mean, he he honestly he doesn't care. He

43:57

really doesn't care. Joe does not care. He doesn't do the

44:00

business. I don't talk to him about he didn't talk to anybody

44:03

about business. If I said, hey, hey, you need to be on value for

44:06

value. He'd be like, I talked to my manager. I don't care. I

44:08

don't care. I don't care. He did that show for years, without

44:12

even knowing you could make money on it. He just wants to do

44:14

he just wants to have fun. That's Joe. That's that's why

44:17

he's successful in what he does. Dave Jones: Right? Because it's a focus on the content. Yeah.

44:24

Yeah. Adam Curry: Yes, other people to deal with that. And he's one of

44:29

those people that can still be top dog in, in what he's doing,

44:37

and then that infrastructure will support him. But I doubt

44:41

that that's the kind of money that's being made. I really,

44:44

really doubt that. Now, so you're telling me that he has

44:48

that he has a quarter of all podcast advertising revenue?

44:53

Dave Jones: No, no, I can't see this. See that? That's the case.

44:58

But who knows? Maybe Adam Curry: but but All those deals and Spotify gave up, they

45:03

just gave up. They saw it wasn't working, they save face and they

45:07

gave up. And here we are. Here we are right back where we

45:13

started. Dave Jones: The edit audio books fired a bunch of people in now

45:19

been raise prices. And now here we are.

45:21

Adam Curry: And Joe is as a much higher output right now he's

45:24

doing a show almost every single day. I know why. Because he

45:26

knows that he has real competition. And and I think he

45:30

enjoys I think he enjoys the competitive nature of getting,

45:34

you know, these interesting guests first, you know, having

45:38

them on and then, you know, there's there's a huge benefit

45:42

to in this case, I think that's the only place where video makes

45:46

sense to me. Is is highly clippable people will watch

45:50

three minutes of video on x. And then and then say yeah, no, I

45:54

heard that episode. Dave Jones: Every PP said he's back on YouTube is that? Yeah,

45:59

that didn't realize that. Yeah. I thought he had an exclusive

46:02

video deal with with Spotify. Unknown: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well, yeah,

46:08

Dave Jones: that makes that Spotify deal look just pretty much

46:10

Unknown: kind of weak. We don't even know what the deal is.

46:14

Yeah, Dave Jones: I mean, like, it may, I guess what I mean by that

46:17

is it makes it makes me question. The reported details

46:22

of that deal even more. But ultimately, I'm just happy

46:26

Adam Curry: to Joe's on my podcast that are that I can

46:29

watch if I want to watch minute, which I don't. But I'm happy.

46:34

The only thing for YouTube, the only reason that I will look at

46:36

that is to look at the million comments. Like the comments are

46:40

always interesting, because a lot of people comment on his

46:43

episodes. That's why I'll sometimes go take a look at the

46:47

episode on YouTube or just switch over for a minute. But

46:50

usually, I'm just listening to it. But that's really what I

46:53

love about Joe, I don't I don't care if he makes a billion

46:56

dollars or $0. And I don't think he cares either. It's easy for

47:00

him to say but for myself, it's the same way. I would you know,

47:03

we do this podcast for no money. We do a lot of things. Just

47:07

because we love it. Surprise.

47:11

Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, as long as long as we pay for the

47:15

results we pay for the index and break is honestly breakeven on

47:18

the index this I mean, the the show this show is our is always

47:22

just been, like, weekly. Let's

47:27

Unknown: just affidavit Adam Curry: is catching up. Exactly. So on that note, let's

47:34

move over to activity pub, because there's been a lot of

47:38

posting a lot of stuff going on. And the one thing that did catch

47:42

my eye in general is Dave Weiner not being happy about the move

47:49

towards activity pub in general for Federation. Okay, and when I

47:55

think Federation isn't is the correct word because that's we

47:59

are, in essence looking to federate the podcast apps. Is

48:03

that a fair? A fair way to put it? Dave Jones: federate, I guess, federate, in terms of the Fetty

48:11

verse or whatever? federate,

48:14

Adam Curry: comments, federate, ratings, federate reviews,

48:17

federated follows federate, likes federate? Yeah, so

48:21

everybody has, there's a federation of, well, exactly

48:25

what it's called Social interactivity around podcasts

48:29

and their episodes. Dave Jones: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.

48:34

Adam Curry: So does it work yet? Dave Jones: Only me what a day. I'm trying to I'm trying to work

48:40

up to care. What day was that? What did he What did he say?

48:44

Adam Curry: He said, Hold on a second. I should have had that

48:47

mean if Dave Jones: there's a if he's got a legitimate beef. Well,

48:50

then I mean, I'm willing to listen, I think

48:52

Adam Curry: it's, you know, it's like it's not it's not not

48:57

invented here, but it's Hold on a second. His site is loading

49:00

very slow for some reason. Here it is, when did he post this

49:09

thing he posted on Monday, the the idea of us all working

49:13

together to federate, is the right idea. But making activity

49:17

pub, the hurdle everyone has to jump over is in my humble

49:20

opinion, the wrong idea. I'm building on feeds RSS atom RDF.

49:26

A lot of good stuff works on that basis, and it's a much

49:29

shorter path to interrupt then activity pub.

49:37

So I, and I think he's looking more not looking at podcasting,

49:41

obviously, but he's looking more at how bridges that bridge, you

49:48

know, feed a into CES. I mean, I see activity pub, kind of as an

49:53

aggregator. You know, it's like I can I can follow or subscribe

49:58

to certain feeds at aggregates them and then I can do something

50:03

with that which in turn I can turn around and other people can

50:07

aggregate what I did with it Dave Jones: this is this This comment is too vague to, to

50:15

really even know what what to respond to. I mean this because

50:22

I mean our RSS is for good, okay, we made RSS work as a so

50:30

as a as a Pub Sub mechanism. With Freedom controller, I

50:37

could, I could post something on my microblog. And it would show

50:44

up on your on your newsfeed, you could hit reply, which would

50:50

reply in your RSS feed, referencing that item in my

50:57

feed. And then my since I follow you, my news feed would pick up

51:04

your reply out of your RSS feed as a threaded reply to the thing

51:10

that I originally that was actually Adam Curry: a very cool thing you built there. That was that

51:14

was pretty amazing. Dave Jones: Yeah. And we call that like a pull pull only

51:19

social network. There was no, there was no push involved.

51:21

Adam Curry: Right? The problem was everybody needed something

51:24

hosted somewhere. Dave Jones: Right? Which, which is still the problem with

51:28

activity pub, Adam Curry: yes. But the infrastructure has been built

51:30

and people are using it. That's the difference. Like there's

51:33

eight people with a freedom controller. And there's millions

51:37

of people who have an account on an activity pub instance, with

51:42

some front end be it Pleroma, Mastodon, etc. Well,

51:47

Dave Jones: I mean, he's, he's right, in the sense that, I

51:50

don't know what he's, he gets off into the he's using the term

51:54

interop. And I'm not sure what he means. But I mean, he's right

51:57

in the sense of simplicity when it comes to feeds when it's just

52:01

Okay, so an RSS, a podcast app is just polling or at polling

52:06

RSS feeds to look for new content, that's about as simple

52:09

as you're gonna get theirs. And that's no different than typing

52:12

in a website address and letting the page load here, right?

52:15

There's no, that's, that is more simple than activity pub,

52:20

because you don't have activity pub now. Now you've introduced

52:24

now, not only do you have what you could call a feed, which

52:29

might be the outbox, but you now have a sort of Verbling like a

52:36

verb layer on top where you're having to push action. Yes,

52:42

Adam Curry: the verb layer is the right description.

52:46

Dave Jones: And so you know, you're having to push actions back and forth to servers that are listening to each other. So

52:53

this is the difference between you know, something like just

52:58

polling an RSS feed versus web sub, or, you know, or pod

53:05

paying, where you're just basically listening for, for

53:08

events. Adam Curry: It was interesting, it is a mind bender, in a way,

53:16

because I was listening to Sam and James talk on last week's

53:21

podcast, weekly pod news weekly review. And it was so obvious

53:27

that James was not quite grokking, the idea of how

53:31

activity pub fits into this federation of apps. And he was

53:36

he's he can only at that moment, I haven't listened to the whole

53:39

show this week. At that moment, I could tell like, Oh, you're

53:42

almost there. But you still thinking in terms of commenting

53:46

on a post and stuff like that. Whereas you've got to remove

53:50

that whole layer from your vision. And, you know, when we

53:54

talk about activity streams, that's nothing more than a user

53:59

RSS feed. Okay, it's JSON, it's serialized, whatever you want to

54:04

call it, but it's still, that's a, that's an RSS feed. Let's

54:09

just call it that for the moment that I am creating as a user.

54:13

And my content is actions. My Content is things I'm doing. And

54:19

it relates directly to a previous post, which is an

54:23

episode or a show itself. And that is, in effect, aggregated

54:29

and redistributed or made for following and redistribution by

54:34

activity pub. Right. So it's kind of like you have an you

54:38

have a feed aggregator that can turn around and and syndicate

54:43

that out to everybody who's interested. Yeah.

54:48

Dave Jones: Yeah, if I if I have an RSS feed, all I need is I

54:52

need just one file. If I have an activity pub relationship to the

54:58

world, I need Need a server? Yeah. Yes. And that can Can I

55:04

need a server that can that can speak and listen both. And so

55:10

you know that what we're trying to, you know, what we're, what

55:13

we're looking towards is for with with activity pub in the

55:16

future is not at all easy.

55:18

Unknown: No, no, no, no, it's not. No,

55:21

Dave Jones: it's in Dave's Dave's right on that point. It's

55:24

not at all it's Adam Curry: a hurdle. It's definitely a hurdle. Definitely.

55:28

But, but we Dave Jones: went from zero to pushing Bitcoin around in real

55:33

time. Yeah. So that we can do hard stuff. You know, that's,

55:37

that's not it's, it's not I'm not scared of that. I'm not

55:40

scared of doing hard things. And, you know, another issue

55:45

with with RSS, I don't mean issue in the tournament, in

55:48

terms of it being bad. I mean, like, another one of another one

55:56

of the considerations here with with with RSS, from a historical

56:02

point of view is that servers used to be very expensive. Yeah,

56:08

it really was like to run a server really was a, a financial

56:13

burden. So being able to in bandwidth was a financial, big

56:20

financial burden. So I mean, if you think about that, I mean,

56:27

RSS made sense for that time period is still does I mean, I'm

56:32

not, I'm not slamming it, it still does RSS made, made more

56:36

sense than something like activity pub would have back

56:39

then where you're going to have to run a actual server that's

56:43

doing a bunch of things. Now, nowadays, the dynamics around

56:47

all of that has changed the financial burden. And they I

56:51

mean, let's, and just the technical know how required to

56:55

run something, as as a small server is much more accessible.

57:02

Well, besides so I don't ever feel limited anymore. I suppose

57:05

it took a decade or so for us to create an infrastructure for

57:11

feed hosting. Adam Curry: And so there's 1000s of places you can go to host

57:17

your feed. And it's to the point where it's invisible. Nobody

57:23

understands I heard I heard some sports guy. And it was a, there

57:32

was something about ads being placed in front of his podcast

57:35

and in the way he saw his I Have a hosting company says, And they

57:38

uploaded everywhere for me. Okay, and you know, and if one

57:45

of my my episodes doesn't show up on Apple, they say you forgot

57:47

to upload to Apple. He people don't even know how it works

57:51

anymore. And we're still like, we got it in our heads, right

57:54

feed aggregator we all we can all connect those dots very,

57:58

very simply. But people don't don't see that. They're like

58:01

that I'm using this. And I guess you have a hosting company. They

58:05

upload it everywhere. They just make sure that file is uploaded

58:08

to every platform. That's what that's what people think. Even

58:14

podcasters don't realize anymore how it works. Yeah, because we

58:19

build so transparent, like you said, Yeah, but we built that

58:22

infrastructure, which and so now instead of let's set up little

58:27

servers to host little mini freedom controllers so we can

58:30

interact with things now there's an infrastructure and it runs an

58:35

activity pub and it's called Mastodon, you know, just for for

58:38

all intents and purposes, but we don't care about the mastodon

58:41

part. We care about the, the the plumbing, which is activity pub,

58:45

which we can use beautifully to our advantage.

58:49

Dave Jones: Right. And that's the part where it gets hard. Of

58:53

course, okay, yeah. Because you're, you're now you're now

58:57

starting to speak, speak a language back and forth to each

59:01

other. Yeah, it's no longer just to get requests. Now. It's now

59:05

now you know, now syntax is important now. Now, the wire

59:11

level protocol is more complicated. I mean, these

59:13

things are. Alex had a great point yesterday. So one of the

59:17

things that one of the changes I made to the namespace this week,

59:21

if we're going to do some namespace stuff, is that for a

59:27

long time, the social enter the social interact tag has only

59:31

been allowed, like by spec has only been allowed in the item.

59:35

So in the episode level, and there there's always people have

59:42

always wanted it to be in the channel itself to

59:45

Adam Curry: people being a channel people being James

59:47

Cridland. Now, there were Dave Jones: others. I mean, he wanted it to be there and he

59:51

wanted it but there were others like in the original

59:54

discussions. That was that was a one of the original discussion

59:58

points was you know, Why should we why should we limit this? And

1:00:03

that kind of thing? Yeah, I think, and

1:00:06

Adam Curry: I'm not against that. I just I think I disagree

1:00:09

with the fundamental argument that shows that a smaller

1:00:13

audience will have less people interacting. I'm not so sure

1:00:16

about that. Yeah. I mean, it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant.

1:00:22

Some Yeah, it's, the conversation is irrelevant.

1:00:27

Yeah, it's fine. Put it in the channel. I got no problem with

1:00:30

that. Can I just make one more analogy? Yes. Almost everybody,

1:00:36

including me, has a Google login has a Google identity. And this

1:00:44

Google thing does a lot of things for you. I typically use

1:00:48

it. If there I'm signing up for something that I really just,

1:00:52

I'm just trying something I really don't. This is my burner

1:00:55

account. And so I'll get a verification through my Gmail.

1:01:00

Yeah, I do have PayPal link to it. So I can do Google Pay,

1:01:07

which sometimes is just super easy. So that universal login

1:01:11

account is, is in fact, what your Macedon, I'm just using

1:01:16

that as a global term. Login will be for your podcast, your

1:01:22

podcast app, so that we can then do something that I doubt Apple

1:01:30

will ever ever do, I doubt Spotify will ever do is we can

1:01:35

be communicating all of these different interactions amongst

1:01:40

each other amongst a an ever expanding universe of apps.

1:01:46

That, to me is super exciting, and blows away all competition.

1:01:52

Because then the cool kids are over here. They're interacting.

1:01:55

They're commenting, just like Rogan, people go to YouTube to

1:02:00

comment. Now I say it's all about comments, but even

1:02:04

discovery of oh, look at how many people are following this

1:02:07

podcast. That is a very, very, very compelling thing.

1:02:15

Dave Jones: Yeah, and you could see that that would build up,

1:02:18

you would build up a community of peep of podcast listeners who

1:02:23

are dedicated, like app level listeners, they always use a

1:02:27

podcast app. Yeah. And you and they would be posting, you know,

1:02:31

they would be be doing actions back and forth. Commenting,

1:02:35

reviewing rating. Adding adding things to play lists, yeah, yes,

1:02:44

shared playlists, recommending

1:02:46

Adam Curry: function recommending your own pod roles.

1:02:49

I mean, you can have all kinds of stuff that can really become

1:02:52

a social graph. I said it, but it's really true. It's really

1:02:55

true. It's really true. You're you're you're making available a

1:02:59

social graph that you can then that will enrich your own life.

1:03:05

Dave Jones: Yeah, and that one, and that would be its own sort of community, you know? Yes. Like the YouTube, like the

1:03:12

YouTube community or whatever it is it for that evolves around a

1:03:16

specific, a specific host or a specific channel or whatever you

1:03:21

want to call it. But then it just but then it just

1:03:24

propagates. Adam Curry: Yes, everywhere. Everybody can get a part of it.

1:03:28

And then that can go out to websites, and more businesses

1:03:32

will, will sprout from that just I mean, I can see Daniel J.

1:03:35

Lewis, revamping his entire business of this as possible.

1:03:40

Dave Jones: Well, if you if you're going to in this, this,

1:03:42

this comes back to you know, social interact in the channel,

1:03:46

and now you have some sort of some sort of tie back to, to, to

1:03:53

the social interact. If you serve some sort of tie back to

1:03:56

activity pub in the channel, then you can you have a starting

1:04:00

place for pushing for pushing actions back and forth

1:04:07

Adam Curry: about the podcast, right? Like, follow and that

1:04:09

kind of stuff. But yeah, Dave Jones: not just follow up, like you said, ratings or

1:04:13

reviews. So this may be something Daniel may be pulling

1:04:16

this data out, to pull into his service

1:04:20

Adam Curry: was like someone there because he's almost sent me a note the other day? Are you familiar with this website

1:04:24

linked to good pods? We really need more representation over

1:04:29

there. And then I'm like me out. Well, my people don't, you know,

1:04:34

they don't go to good pods or whatever, whatever it's called.

1:04:38

You know, then there's other but the, you have all these little

1:04:40

places where people congregate and talk about, you know,

1:04:44

they're fake, they're the one or two podcasts or, or group of

1:04:47

podcasts. And we can bring that all together. Now, good pod

1:04:51

should be a part of it. They should be federating with with

1:04:54

the apps through the pub.

1:04:56

Dave Jones: Yeah, cuz they get there. They're a comment. Yeah.

1:05:00

destination, there are this place where those things happen

1:05:02

and reviews and all that. But it's funny, you think that if

1:05:06

you have a protocol that that means that you can just do you

1:05:13

think that once you have a protocol, you can just extend

1:05:16

the protocol. And you don't have to worry about like things like

1:05:21

breakage, and that sort of stuff. But but it's not really

1:05:28

that simple. Because you still have chicken and egg, things

1:05:32

that happen with even within an existing protocol. So for

1:05:37

instance, Mastadon. Like we, if we, as we go down this road, if

1:05:42

we have things, we're going to need new new objects. So now

1:05:48

maybe a note object is not enough, we need something

1:05:53

different, like we, you know, just just as a crazy example, we

1:05:56

talked about a pod pod ping or activity pub. I'm not, I'm not

1:06:00

really thinking about that these days. But if if we had that,

1:06:05

let's just say I'm just trying to grab an example here. If we

1:06:08

had that, and you had an A pod ping object within activity pub.

1:06:15

Well, the existing activity pub class, they don't know about

1:06:18

that they have no idea what this thing is now, they wouldn't know

1:06:20

what to do with it, they will know what to do with it. So that

1:06:23

you're still have a chicken and egg thing. Now you have a you

1:06:26

have a shared protocol. So you can, that's this may be

1:06:31

extendable, but it's but it's really not that different than

1:06:34

something like a namespace and an RSS feed support has to be

1:06:36

built in. Okay, so just initials and that's the hump you have to

1:06:40

get. Okay, this is okay, this is good for me of edifying. So, the

1:06:46

hurdles that we're seeing is, so let's just, let's take some

1:06:50

let's take some simple things. What can we actually do with the

1:06:53

existing Adam Curry: activity pod protocol? Before we would have

1:06:58

to create you know, new verbs namespaces, blobs, whatever it

1:07:03

is, can we do podcasts I follow?

1:07:11

Dave Jones: You would. Adam Curry: So for instance, so if you live, you look at my

1:07:14

profile in on podcast, index dot social, right. And this is, this

1:07:22

is just a very basic thing. But you look at my profile, the end,

1:07:25

here, you can see, posts, posts and replies media, but they can

1:07:31

also see following and I click on following, it shows who I'm

1:07:34

following. And you can see followers who's following me.

1:07:39

Can we use the active out sub forget if it's, if I had to

1:07:44

create a whole new activity pub account? Let's just forget all

1:07:48

that complicated stuff. Could you a bare minimum, be seeing

1:07:53

which podcasts I follow? If my app put into my activity pub

1:08:02

account that I follow these accounts, which are all

1:08:05

podcasts? Is that am I making sense? Am I making sense? Yes,

1:08:11

you're Dave Jones: making? Yeah, you're making sense. So you would you

1:08:13

would enumerate your, like, we would have to basically, we

1:08:17

would have to tag these actors, these podcast actors as podcasts

1:08:24

through I'm not, not sure exactly how we the best way to

1:08:30

do that. Right now. I'm trying to envision what the actor

1:08:32

object looks like. But we would, we would basically identify

1:08:36

these actors as podcasts, then someone would query your follow

1:08:44

your following list. And then be able to see, okay, 75 of these

1:08:52

250 follows that you have our podcasts? To me, yeah, that's

1:08:58

yes, that's not a burden. I mean, that's the that's, that's

1:09:00

doable. So as to whether you will see there's two levels, you

1:09:05

can do it, you can just sort of like tag the actor in some way

1:09:09

as a podcast, or you can sort of you can define a podcast actor,

1:09:14

which is a whole different sort of, right, I got you more

1:09:17

involved. And then that's the part we have to jump over a, you

1:09:22

know, a log Adam Curry: in Harvard says, I actually have zero desire to

1:09:27

show everyone what I follow. Sure. I mean, but that's not the

1:09:30

trend. People love. beefing up their profile letting people

1:09:36

know, I mean, just, I mean, that's, that's a fact of social

1:09:40

interaction. People like that. Dave Jones: Some people like it, some people don't. Some

1:09:46

Adam Curry: people don't, but a lot of people do. I mean, it's just like, we now have the podcasting 2.0 logo emoji, which

1:09:53

everybody can can add to that which I like, you know, it's

1:09:56

like hey, virtue signaling that I am a member of this group.

1:10:00

Boop, I mean, this is things that are cool. You know? So

1:10:04

these are all, you know, this is a podcasting, 2.0, podcast, all

1:10:08

these different things. I understand what you're saying

1:10:10

now. And that's an important part that I hadn't really considered that we that, yeah, it'll work if if you're all on

1:10:16

the same instance that understands these objects or

1:10:20

actors wherever you call them. But that would be something that

1:10:23

would have to that everyone has to implement that just like a

1:10:28

namespace in order for that to work.

1:10:32

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, we've done Adam Curry: it before we've done one namespace, I'm sure we could

1:10:37

do another one. We've Dave Jones: done two, we've done two namespaces, where we did SOP

1:10:42

ml and podcasts namespace. So we're, we know how to namespace

1:10:46

stuff. You know, we, if anybody's good from start with

1:10:51

starting from egg, absolute scratch is probably us. But I

1:10:56

think we can. I mean, in any activity, pub is not going to be

1:11:00

the solution to every problem. You know? Nothing really is.

1:11:05

There is no, there is no protocol. That is the solution

1:11:09

for every problem. You pick and choose. That's why we still use

1:11:12

XML for RSS feeds. Yeah. Because it's fine. It works. It's fine.

1:11:18

That's not we're not we're not we're nobody's changing this.

1:11:21

And the way and so when it comes to social interaction of a

1:11:30

certain extensible type activity Pub is, is the right choice for

1:11:37

that is the right tool for that job. Adam Curry: You got that? And that was gonna be my next

1:11:40

question. I mean, am I barking up the wrong tree here or

1:11:44

social? First, we have to agree is social interaction desired?

1:11:48

And I say yes, I say social interaction between podcast apps

1:11:53

is something that will turn it into a very, very powerful

1:11:57

entity. I think so too. Is activity pub, the right

1:12:03

infrastructure based upon its limitations, versus its

1:12:07

availability to many people. Dave Jones: Okay. All right, in my opinion, yes. So when it when

1:12:14

it comes to social interaction between apps activity, pub, to

1:12:17

me is the correct answer. Why when it comes because it's, it's

1:12:30

got this, this is similar to watch why to choose a crit one

1:12:34

crypto over the other or whatever. It's, it's sort of a

1:12:38

constellation of, of different factors, you have to take into

1:12:41

account. It's, it's not super complex. It's got, it's got an

1:12:47

ease of understanding to it. It's got market share already,

1:12:53

it's already got momentum. Like lots of it paid, it's often

1:12:57

running. So you're not so it's not hurting, it's in it's got

1:13:00

support within most languages, like it's got libraries for most

1:13:06

languages that will support the basics, okay. There's example

1:13:09

code out there, there's that kind of thing. And then it's,

1:13:13

you can, it's already been, you're already seeing being

1:13:17

done. Apps are already federating in using this

1:13:21

protocol. Okay. So it's, it's got sort of like a, its

1:13:27

pedigree, at this point, makes sense. But when you versus

1:13:33

something like a Noster, where you're where you're starting,

1:13:36

you know, you're trying to grow scratch from nothing. Yeah. And,

1:13:41

you know, ignoring or ignoring all the downsides of the

1:13:44

protocol itself. I mean, it's just purely trying to get

1:13:46

something off the ground from absolutely nothing. And there's

1:13:48

no network effect, you know, Adam Curry: I'm going to ask you, I'm just, this is how we do

1:13:52

it, Dave. With that in mind, the energy so taking your scale,

1:13:59

right, is the energy and I can't believe I'm saying this is the

1:14:02

energy and the, the amount of I think energy, not velocity, but

1:14:12

the amount of veracity that is, this velocity and veracity. So

1:14:18

activitypub has velocity noster has veracity. And in effect, if

1:14:26

you want to add something to the Nasr protocol, we will find much

1:14:32

more. A much easier path, I believe. Then going to Gore

1:14:38

Gonzalez, whatever his name is Gorgon and saying Hey, David

1:14:42

Dave Jones: Gergen, Adam Curry: Gorgon, we need we need we need this hey, these

1:14:46

crypto bros over here with free speech we want to have this

1:14:49

added to Macedon. I mean I've just thrown that out there. I

1:14:54

understand all the issues and I Alex GATES I love you don't

1:14:58

don't get mad just yet. And is asking the question. Are we

1:15:03

very, very sure activity Pub is the right way to go taking the

1:15:06

velocity versus veracity into account? Because as I've always

1:15:10

said, Nasr is a solution looking for a problem.

1:15:14

Dave Jones: But no, I think I think activitypub is the correct

1:15:17

solution because nostril has the same exact problem

1:15:21

Adam Curry: with a smaller group to convince, who may be more

1:15:26

enthusiastic to make it woman,

1:15:30

Dave Jones: I don't know that I would go that far. Okay. Maybe

1:15:34

because noster has the same issue it has. Look how many nips

1:15:38

there are. There's like seven bazillion of these things. You

1:15:41

look at your typical nostre relay, and it supports maybe 40.

1:15:47

There's there. Oh, Adam Curry: yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's always comes down to the

1:15:51

instance or the relay or whatever. Yeah, it always,

1:15:54

Dave Jones: there's hundreds of proposals that just never get

1:15:56

anything done. Right. So it's but

1:16:00

Adam Curry: the way I see it is it's entirely possible that just

1:16:03

as true fans will become a full native activity pop client, and

1:16:11

will service its users with an activity pub instance, a login

1:16:17

that doesn't act at all, like a mastodon server, but just does

1:16:21

the activity pub activity pub Federation, will that mean that

1:16:26

podcast guru basically needs to do the same for their users?

1:16:33

Dave Jones: See that said again, I'm not sure I follow. Adam Curry: Oh, instead of me bringing my existing activity

1:16:38

pub account, which is typically linked to a mastodon, right? Is

1:16:43

it easier to bootstrap this by the developer, the app

1:16:48

developers having their own wishes, a whole nother burden, a

1:16:51

whole nother can of worms, having their own activity pub

1:16:55

running, either in client or as a server to service their

1:16:59

customers, their app users for the social interaction with

1:17:03

other apps. Dave Jones: I think that's the only way this really gets off

1:17:09

the ground. Adam Curry: That's this is this is a big thing to understand.

1:17:13

Because Dave Jones: I agree with Matt airhead in the chat because he

1:17:16

says he says his comment is Mastodon is a really poor

1:17:19

example of activity pub and got it. I don't think he's right. In

1:17:24

one sense. I mean, it's a good example of it. If you're if

1:17:29

you're if you're ill, if your aim is is to show what it can do

1:17:38

as a proof of concept for for a use case, like I'm having

1:17:45

trouble describing this. Okay. There's a reason why whenever

1:17:49

anybody comes up with a social protocol, they the first thing

1:17:53

they build, just like nostra did the first thing they build as a

1:17:55

social network, right, Adam Curry: which is kind of death. Yeah, it's because

1:17:59

Dave Jones: it's the first because it it, it's an easy sort

1:18:03

of way to, it's the same reason to all example, code apps that

1:18:09

like how to build an app one on one always starts with like an

1:18:11

RSS reader. It's just this easy. Hello, World type. Yeah, here's

1:18:16

my protocol. I'm going to show it off. Right. But he's right,

1:18:20

in the sense that, that it's a poor, it's a, it leaves you with

1:18:26

a poor understanding of the full capabilities of what can be

1:18:31

created with this thing. It leaves you it sort of leaves you

1:18:36

wanting. Because you because you what you end up with is

1:18:41

thinking, you're in a box, you're stuck in a box, you're

1:18:44

thinking okay, oh, what this this is a social media protocol.

1:18:49

But that is not really, it's, it's capable of much, much more.

1:18:56

I mean, Adam Curry: which, and I'm least interested in the social media

1:19:03

aspect. As most of these things pop up. That's why I'm always

1:19:07

saying, let's do something really simple, like a star. If

1:19:12

we can all get if I can hit five stars on one podcast, and

1:19:16

everybody else can see that on in their app. Champagne all

1:19:20

around. Dave Jones: Right? Yeah. I mean, are those things like, play?

1:19:28

Yeah. Well, that's odd. Caddys native thing that activity pub

1:19:32

could do that you can't do through RSS to speak today.

1:19:35

Wonders point. Unknown: Right.

1:19:38

Adam Curry: Just just seems like I don't know what I do with I

1:19:42

don't care if someone's well, maybe I do. I'm more I'm more

1:19:45

interested in aggregate. Like what's the rating? What's the

1:19:50

what's the what's the star rating? What is followed a lot.

1:19:53

This is the stuff that people always think they can get from the index, which we don't have. Like how many people are

1:19:58

subscribed to this podcast? So that stuff that was interesting,

1:20:03

or? Yeah, let's just leave it at that. I mean, we I think we need

1:20:09

to pick one thing that hopefully is not comments that we all say,

1:20:15

okay, we can implement this. And and I agree with the who said

1:20:19

that in the Todd, I guess geek news that the podcast guru has

1:20:27

pod chaser login here to pod chaser. And I'm never going to

1:20:30

do that. Now I want either, I'm never going to do it. Now. And

1:20:35

for the by the same token, if it said, log into your Mastodon, a

1:20:41

lot of people probably won't do that. But if it says you're

1:20:44

logged into podcast guru, which I am, but I have some kind of I

1:20:49

know, I have some kind of login credentials for podcast guru,

1:20:53

because I can synchronize it somewhere or pod verse or

1:20:56

whatever. You know, that's, I'm feeling better about that. And

1:21:00

then what that does in the back end, if that's connecting to an

1:21:03

activity pub, that's great. I'm just fine. Hey, I can see. I can

1:21:07

see how many people follow this podcast. Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, this, that the login with POD chaser

1:21:12

thing is a way to give a cast first party data about about

1:21:18

listener metrics. Got it? Let's just be honest. I mean, that's

1:21:21

what that is. But you know, so Nathan said, I'd love to hear

1:21:26

your thoughts about the open API for podcasting data. I have got

1:21:31

that in my notes here. And I've got a bunch of stuff to to say

1:21:34

about that. I'm not sure we have. I can't I feel like it's

1:21:38

gonna be a long conversation. So I'm not sure we have time to go

1:21:41

over it. And I actually want, I want to talk about it. I'm gonna

1:21:46

talk about it next week. And because I may, actually, uh, may

1:21:51

actually try to get some code up and running on that this week.

1:21:56

Adam Curry: And to what is this? I'm not familiar with this. There's an open API standard for podcast synchronization.

1:22:03

Dave Jones: Yeah, it's the open podcast sync API.

1:22:06

Adam Curry: Never heard of. Dave Jones: And, well, I mean, it's very nascent, it's facing

1:22:13

you. But I want to get I want to get a little bit more off the

1:22:21

ground on that. I have tons of thoughts on it. And I think it's

1:22:24

an very interesting idea. It could relate to this also. Okay,

1:22:29

to to activity pub, I kind of want to I want to let I actually

1:22:34

want to do some coding on it. I would not mind coming up with a

1:22:38

Adam Curry: reference server for this. And what what is this? So

1:22:41

that means your subscriptions can sync between apps?

1:22:44

Dave Jones: Yes, subscriptions and other types of other stuff?

1:22:48

Uh, huh. Related to, to relate it to your catalogue, and what

1:22:54

you're doing with Adam Curry: it, I think that's how I feel like we went one step

1:22:59

forward, two steps back, but it's okay, because that happens

1:23:02

in these iterative processes. But I just like, I just have a

1:23:09

high level overview. And that's, if we can connect these apps

1:23:14

together, which I'll just call federated federating. But

1:23:18

interrupt, call it whatever you want. I think that's a big win

1:23:23

for podcasting for the independent apps that can do it.

1:23:28

Because everyone else would be left out in the in the in the

1:23:31

dust, it won't be as interesting, right? Now, then

1:23:36

write a review, or what are you going to say, Go write a review

1:23:39

on Spotify? Now, do that on these apps? Because then there's

1:23:43

these other 20 apps that get the same information?

1:23:46

Dave Jones: Yeah, just do it right in the app. Click on your

1:23:49

five Adam Curry: be, you know, basically a pod roll for app

1:23:52

users. Dave Jones: Yeah, Adam Curry: click on your five favorite you know, when you when

1:23:56

I heard it on the podcast guru, that should be an activity that

1:24:00

shows up somewhere and lead this many people heart this podcast

1:24:03

because they like it. And then you could even drill down what

1:24:06

else is this guy? Like? You know, I might like that other

1:24:10

stuff. There's your discovery. That's, you know, people have

1:24:12

this idea that YouTube's gonna give them discovery, but new,

1:24:15

but this is discovery native to what we're doing. And if we can

1:24:18

do that distributed through activity pub, or the open

1:24:23

podcast sync API doesn't really matter to me what's under the

1:24:25

hood. But what a giant leap for mankind. That would be

1:24:30

Dave Jones: great. Yeah, yes. I mean, the Yeah, and all this the

1:24:36

open podcast sync API. I can see that being this is what I want

1:24:43

to explore is is a sort of a need to get a mental model of

1:24:47

how this could federate. Because I think it can. It The other

1:24:53

thing is we want to a promise we'll talk about this on the

1:24:56

next show. I just, we've talked about so much already. I don't I

1:24:59

don't think I can do Hampshire handle the mental bandwidth of

1:25:01

that. Yeah, but because of my notes are like I've got like six

1:25:05

levels deep in my outline here about the podcasts, he KPI. But

1:25:12

the other thing we got to remember is people people don't

1:25:14

always want many people, myself included don't want their the ad

1:25:19

don't want a single identity online. Gotcha. You know what I

1:25:25

mean? Sure, sure. You don't want to you know, I Unknown: don't have it either. Like, I don't have it either.

1:25:29

You know, Dave Jones: I want to segregate my identities out into different

1:25:35

use cases. Like I have my podcast index, does social mass,

1:25:43

you know, activitypub identity. If I go, if I go and have an

1:25:48

identity within the within the sort of federated podcast app

1:25:51

world, I don't want that I'm not going to use my podcast indexed

1:25:55

or social Id got it, I'm going to have something different.

1:25:58

Because I don't like I like the compartmentalization of these

1:26:03

different things because they serve me in identities online

1:26:07

are meant to serve you. And they serve me in different from, they

1:26:13

serve my needs in different ways. That's the thing that

1:26:17

always creeps me out about this sort of digital identity stuff

1:26:20

that d&d stuff is there's always behind it, this sort of notion

1:26:24

that is only going to be like, universal Single Sign In. Yeah.

1:26:29

Where You Are you everywhere and no government. Don't

1:26:31

Adam Curry: worry, the government will give you that don't worry, that's coming.

1:26:36

Dave Jones: Waiting for my mail. Adam Curry: Exciting, and I'm looking at this open podcast API

1:26:45

looks like a lot of people started it. We're interested

1:26:48

antenna pod funk whale cast pod friend G Potter looks super

1:26:55

interesting. Dave Jones: The first reaction to it is just use OPML. But the

1:27:01

more I thought about it, I'm like, No, this is actually

1:27:04

legit. This is better. This is this is better.

1:27:08

Adam Curry: Can I talk about a different to interrupt project

1:27:11

that is taking place? Dave Jones: Yes, you can.

1:27:15

Adam Curry: So I've had some ongoing conversations with Cody

1:27:18

from the side stream music podcast. Now he's a radio guy

1:27:23

who are either he still is a morning show here in Texas. And

1:27:28

he is now putting I think it's actually there's a call of

1:27:31

course it's happening right after today's board meeting,

1:27:34

which I saw I can't attend their call. Now this

1:27:37

Dave Jones: is this is this guy that was on the wavelength show.

1:27:41

Yeah, Adam Curry: that's Cody was on the was interviewed by the

1:27:43

wavelength, guys. Yeah. Okay. And so Cody really loves it.

1:27:49

He's a live radio guy. And he's been, I think he's now episode

1:27:53

25 of the sidestream music podcast. And he knows a lot of

1:27:56

the artists and you know, he's a real driver. I mean, like, like

1:28:00

many many of the, of the guys who have shows in the in the

1:28:04

music in the V music space. Now he he has a good connection

1:28:10

friendly connection with the CEO and founder of wire ready. And

1:28:16

wire ready is basically a radio playout system so very similar

1:28:21

to em heirless which I use. So why already you know, it has

1:28:25

your cards and then you can you know your soundboard, you can

1:28:28

cue up songs, and then you can play and so for both live and

1:28:35

recorded shows, key is now connects they're gonna have a

1:28:40

call with I think Dobby das tins Dobby. I think Cody's already

1:28:46

hosted with RSS blue.com. And what they're trying to do is

1:28:51

create a version of wire ready, which you know, typically is

1:28:55

licensed to radio stations for not an insignificant amount.

1:28:59

This guy wants to play value for value. So that you can you will

1:29:04

be able to download this wire Ready program, you can then

1:29:08

create your podcast with it, it would hook into I get in

1:29:11

initially, I guess RSS blue.com I don't know exactly what

1:29:15

they're going to come up with. But the idea is, you fire this

1:29:18

up, be say I'm looking for a song, it hits the podcast index

1:29:23

API, just like the split kit does or any of those other

1:29:26

things. So you can search you can cue up your songs you play

1:29:30

him and then on the fly it tracks everything and then

1:29:34

outputs your chapter and your value time split JSON feeds for

1:29:40

upload to your host so we have two full days and it will also

1:29:43

activate you know a live stream whatever. So we'll have all in

1:29:48

one bundle and it'll do value for value so you know he's gonna

1:29:52

want some value is going to want to be in the split. So at

1:29:55

anybody can in essence download this there'll be a special

1:29:58

podcast version And then you can go live you can record it for

1:30:03

upload later and it will do all the allow you to search the

1:30:07

music and do all create all the very much the way the split kit

1:30:11

does it and then all integrated into into one application that

1:30:19

is a professional app for wow this Yeah, isn't that cool?

1:30:24

Dave Jones: That's fantastic. Yeah, Adam Curry: yeah I'm very I'm very excited about that. So I

1:30:28

guess read Yeah, yeah.

1:30:31

Dave Jones: I mean to it okay, we're talking talking about me

1:30:35

that's that's pretty cool. I mean, if this if this there may

1:30:42

be a need to get in there and fix some of the API or about

1:30:45

around music there's some Yeah, of course there's some issues

1:30:49

with but Adam Curry: the thing is Dolby Das is in the middle so he'll

1:30:52

he'll he already knows how to access all that stuff. He knows

1:30:55

the the the problems so you don't you know Dobby das will

1:30:59

contact you. And I hope I think Barry should be brought into

1:31:03

this you know, the podcast 2.0 native hosting companies.

1:31:08

They're really the guys that can that can work with this. But I'm

1:31:11

super excited. Because now you have not only something you can

1:31:15

easily create a podcast with, you know, like a front end that

1:31:19

you get to your host but then all this all this other music

1:31:23

stuff is built right into it. I think that would that's going to

1:31:25

be so exciting to Dave Jones: have a native sort of a native experience. Yeah,

1:31:30

yeah. So my wife sent me this couple of days ago that she

1:31:39

she's a fan of this guy. Allen Google. Or Google rings

1:31:46

adventures and Australian guitar as Australian guitarist. He's

1:31:51

He's writes beautiful music. Alan G as last name is G O G O L

1:31:55

L. Go Gaul or something like that. Beautiful music. Just just

1:32:01

fantastic. Artist. And he posted this a few days ago, he says is

1:32:08

with a heavy heart that I can confirm Apple Music has removed

1:32:11

and blacklisted much of my music and continues to do so every

1:32:15

day. This is a significant portion of my livelihood gone.

1:32:19

CD Baby have been unable to help me at all. Being accused of

1:32:23

buying fake streams for my music. There's absolutely

1:32:26

nothing I can do to stop this. I've simply been ghosted by

1:32:28

Apple and CD Baby and told don't buy fake streams. They're not

1:32:32

only accusing me of this, but carrying out permanent judgment

1:32:35

as well. I have offered my full financial records to show that

1:32:39

I've never paid for streams nor do I need to. And why would I

1:32:42

continue to destroy my career like this? If I was buying fake

1:32:44

streams in over 20 years or releasing music this is the

1:32:47

worst experience I've ever had with no light at the end of the

1:32:49

tunnel. If you're a lawyer willing to help me please email

1:32:52

me or DM me thankfully, my music is on Spotify still unaffected.

1:32:57

So please consider listening there. This is you know, wow,

1:33:01

what happens to happens when you're in that ecosystem? And

1:33:05

Adam Curry: is no one no one to call? No one answered the phone.

1:33:08

Yeah, no, they Dave Jones: all just say Sorry, can't help you. Wow. And you're

1:33:13

potentially blind lost half your income. So I mean, having this

1:33:20

is not this is not just all fun and games where we're all just

1:33:24

kind of pretending you know, obviously not pretending we're we're all kind of just having a good time. Writing software.

1:33:30

This is potentially important for for real people in the real

1:33:32

world making real money shall we? I think having a plan B you

1:33:37

know, Adam Curry: should we help somebody out with some real

1:33:39

money? I would love to Okay, I got a banger for you. It's a

1:33:43

Friday afternoon bang Are You Ready? Ready? Yes all right. I'm

1:33:46

ready for banger myself. This is the velvet I heard them on the

1:33:50

phantom power music I thought yeah, this is perfect for Friday

1:33:54

afternoon. Unknown: Salmon

1:34:34

she's my sweet she's my speech.

1:35:00

Adam Curry: Ask Unknown: she's my sweet

1:35:25

she's my team she's my sweet

1:37:05

Adam Curry: you ready for the weekend here, the pelvic suite

1:37:09

shapes. Everybody who went to the bathroom raise your hand.

1:37:14

Dave Jones: Oh, that was seeing the yellow pad or on buildings.

1:37:20

That's a great name. Adam Curry: If you're listening to this podcast, if you didn't

1:37:25

boost during that song, go ahead rewind it, and you can even

1:37:28

pause it and then just boost them. boost those guys. Let them

1:37:31

know and let them know you heard it on podcasting. 2.0 the board

1:37:34

meeting? Dave Jones: Yes. Brought to you by the gates in wallet switching

1:37:39

technology. That's right. Adam Curry: The magic gates you and wallet switching technology.

1:37:45

Yeah, that's good. That guy kept me awake.

1:37:48

Unknown: I like that. Yeah, I like you're good. Dave Jones: It helps wake you up after the NPR CEO. Yes, indeed.

1:37:55

Indeed. Well, thanks for people.

1:37:58

Adam Curry: Oh, you're I mean, we can do we can do another topic if you wanted to. I mean, I How are you on time? You got

1:38:03

to get out. Yeah, I Dave Jones: gotta go back to the office.

1:38:07

Adam Curry: You got a harder Okay, yeah. Let me let me bring

1:38:12

up the life boost. Let me see what we have here. of the ego

1:38:16

Eric pp 3333 sets for sweet cheeks played on podcasting. 2.0

1:38:21

Perfect. Thank you very much. dribs got 3456 He says hey, I

1:38:26

thought that hive was the solution for all problems. It is

1:38:32

of course the solution it is of course a solution. Brian, I'm

1:38:36

not I'm not going to deny it. It's a solution. It is a

1:38:39

solution. 3333 from Jean Everett's Thank you would just

1:38:42

says boost. Todd Cochran 1000 SATs. Adam many podcasters do

1:38:47

not know what a right click on a mouse is or scroll on. Welcome

1:38:51

to my world or scroll. Yeah, welcome to my world. Yes. Yeah,

1:38:55

I understand. Yeah, I understand. But, you know,

1:39:01

people aren't stupid. Yeah. People like to learn. Listeners

1:39:05

certainly do audiences do. Salty Crayon 1776. Patriot boost.

1:39:10

Here's little value to help balancing the podcasting to

1:39:12

point no budget since the Fed has zero motivation to balance

1:39:15

there's go podcasting.

1:39:18

Dave Jones: The Fed doesn't have a budget. They just have a it's

1:39:21

just a blank. They can just write whatever they want. And

1:39:23

they're called monetizing the debt.

1:39:27

Adam Curry: That is exactly what it is Jean Everett roadex 2222

1:39:30

Happy Friday. Happy Friday to you. Todd Cochran has 5000 SATs.

1:39:34

He says I seriously need a clone go podcasting. I'll give you

1:39:39

give me that. Well, would you look at this 5000 SATs from pod

1:39:44

friend Martin. Dave Jones: Hey, Martin.

1:39:47

Adam Curry: He lives he says hello. I think I think I missed

1:39:51

a show or 10 I've been I've been so extremely busy with life, the

1:39:56

universe and everything. I hope everyone is doing well. Yes. We

1:40:00

miss you Martin. Boy do I would Dave Jones: just like to I would just like to talk to Martin on

1:40:04

the phone and hear about his job and Adam Curry: yeah and his marriage and his house and the

1:40:10

crazy country he lives in and you know all that stuff yeah

1:40:13

we'd love to know I would love to get happy I saw I saw him pop

1:40:17

up on the on the Macedon the other day Dave Jones: I thought I was seeing I thought I was seeing so

1:40:22

I had to do it don't make so much someone hacked Adam Curry: his account or this can't be

1:40:26

Unknown: yeah Adam Curry: let me see we have that it Yeah, hit the delimiter

1:40:33

low boosted today very low boosted. Yes,

1:40:35

Dave Jones: it's very little but since we did as we did as Pe

1:40:38

files, we have actually two very low paper knowledge as well. We

1:40:44

have $5 a one off from Truman Gillette. Thank you treatment

1:40:49

for Stage five bucks. very appreciative. And Kevin bay from

1:40:54

the podcasting 2.0 Endowment Fund he says this is my monthly

1:40:59

is $3.54 monthly from the endowment fund I need to grow my

1:41:03

fund. Adam Curry: Grow your show grow your fund Exactly.

1:41:09

Dave Jones: Todd's here he can tell you how to grow it. We got

1:41:11

some good guess boosted we guess we got a pot home. I'm assuming

1:41:18

that's Barry. Yeah, that's gotta be buried in 1000 SATs through

1:41:22

podcasts. Gary says thanks for listening to about podcasting

1:41:24

www about podcasting dot show. Great show was Sam guys.

1:41:28

Adam Curry: Yes, it was good show. Good show. Dave Jones: See we got 3045 sets from Sam Sethi Speaking of the

1:41:37

devil shows up through true fans he says true fan support from

1:41:42

Episode 176 angel number Thank you Sam. Appreciate it.

1:41:47

Anonymous boosting everyone see listening our song from last

1:41:54

week says groovy yeah thank you Groovy is that is that it is

1:41:59

surely that's not it. Adam Curry: Really? That's it? No

1:42:06

Unknown: that's not right. Can't be Dave Jones: Kevin Bay 20,000 SATs through pod verse he says

1:42:13

some somehow some way 1.2 million SATs pass through my

1:42:17

little V for V music podcast sets and sounds since I started

1:42:20

Wow. I'm absolutely baffled by it all. And I'll spend my

1:42:23

portion own activitypub education. Well, thank you.

1:42:27

Appreciate that. He's He's a double helping of Kevin Bay

1:42:31

today. And we got 3045 from Sam Sethi give us another boost

1:42:38

there no note from him. And then that's it. Yeah, we got we got

1:42:42

the delimiter 24,000 SATs from chemistry bloggers saving saving

1:42:47

the day. Unknown: Yes, yes. Adam Curry: Thank you CSB.

1:42:51

Dave Jones: Through fountain he says, How do you Dave and Adam.

1:42:54

Today I'd like to recommend this podcast to your audience. Join

1:42:58

Phoenix and phone boy for some healthy happy, higher

1:43:01

consciousness. With some high tech high jinks on the side.

1:43:04

Come experience the Lotus effect for yourselves at WWW dot Lotus

1:43:09

effect dot show. Yo Josie

1:43:12

Adam Curry: pcsb always on the download. Yo Thank you very

1:43:16

much. We did just get I see we got it. We got an x boost. Kami.

1:43:21

Oh, hold on a second. We got two more boosts coming in. striper

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boost 7777 from Steve Wilkinson. Oh, CG works he says we just

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want healthy adds the benefits that this benefits listeners and

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creators I've purchased many things based on trusted

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podcasters a bet. And then under the wire 45,678 SATs from Dred

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Scott he says boost and go podcast a podcast.

1:43:58

Dave Jones: Drib is a double as a repeat customer this week as

1:44:01

he came in with our monthlies with $15 from drip.

1:44:06

Adam Curry: Thank you, man. Thank you so much. Dave Jones: We got Shawn McCune $20 See where Matt James

1:44:14

Sullivan $10 Christopher reamer $10 Jordan Dunnville $10 Michael

1:44:20

Kimmerer $5.33 Charles current $5 Michael Goggin $5 and con

1:44:27

glotzbach $5. Adam Curry: What a beautiful What a beautiful bunch. Y'all

1:44:33

are just a beautiful bunch. I really I looked at the tally

1:44:37

coin real quick. Guess what, then? Absolutely nothing.

1:44:42

Absolutely nothing from the tally. Did

1:44:45

Dave Jones: we get any runes, Adam Curry: runes? You know, I always my my daughter sometimes

1:44:52

needs a little help with the rent. You know, she's a social

1:44:55

worker these days. And so I'm like, like, Yeah, I'll send you

1:44:59

500 bucks, like $20 fee.

1:45:03

Dave Jones: Yikes through? Adam Curry: Yeah. That was the

1:45:07

Dave Jones: bit you do debit Bitcoin

1:45:09

Adam Curry: transfer Yeah, I like this room stuff better stop

1:45:13

whatever this I mean I'm like, I'm like kid you better get a

1:45:16

lightning account you better learn how to pay for stuff in

1:45:19

lightning because this is getting crazy. Dave Jones: Speaking of that do we need so I've gotten in touch

1:45:26

with strike to see if we can get into their API just for no

1:45:33

specific reason really I just want to try to understand some I

1:45:39

just want to get get my head around a little bit of onboarding, so maybe I can just be better informed about Oh,

1:45:44

sure. That's always good things around that. Yeah, and I want to

1:45:50

do we need to look at opening up maybe a set channel to strike

1:45:56

Adam Curry: we can we can open Well, I mean, yeah, I

1:46:00

Dave Jones: don't know how they control that. Adam Curry: That's a very good question. I'm sure that the lb

1:46:09

or the breeze boys would know I'm sure they they're all they

1:46:11

all they all fat pipe each other. may sound weird. I'm

1:46:20

sorry. I didn't mean to sound weird. Just slightly.

1:46:23

Unknown: Yeah. Yeah,

1:46:26

Dave Jones: maybe we need it. Maybe we need the fat pipe on. I

1:46:29

Adam Curry: did get a little concerned. Over this recent was

1:46:34

it samurai wallet. Now these guys were clearly doing

1:46:36

something. They were advertising, like, Hey, you got

1:46:39

illegal money that you got in Bitcoin, the gray markets and

1:46:42

black markets will mix it up for you. All right. That's never a

1:46:45

good idea. Not a good. But the. But there's all kinds of

1:46:51

government institutions saying hey, you know, the, you're not a

1:46:54

money transmitter, you don't have a money transmitter

1:46:57

license, you got to be careful. So I'm just saying, We got to be

1:47:00

careful with that stuff. Dave Jones: Yeah, that's, I kind of want to get my head around

1:47:05

some of that and make sure that's not Adam Curry: really clear, as always, with all this stuff, but

1:47:09

some of the writing is obvious on the wall that the main thing

1:47:12

is if you can do it with accountability, and KYC just

1:47:17

made a mean that your bank should basically be the witches,

1:47:21

I think is what strike really does. I mean, you you do have a

1:47:25

some KYC connection when you hook up striker to your bank.

1:47:31

You know, it's like, yeah, you Dave Jones: have your walkie strike. KYC is you I mean, you

1:47:35

have to give them the right info. Adam Curry: So you know, I think that that's just going to be a

1:47:39

given in our future. And the, you know, the idea of anonymous

1:47:44

money in this world is going to be very, very difficult. Unless

1:47:48

everyone's on a Bitcoin standard. You know, it's like we

1:47:50

only buy and sell stuff in Bitcoin, which I do in many

1:47:53

respects, for lots of stuff. But it's just kind of going to be a

1:47:58

fact of life. I don't think we can get around it. Dave Jones: While I love Rob, I can I can say this about Rob

1:48:04

because he doesn't listen to the show. Unknown: Love to the show. Really?

1:48:10

Dave Jones: Yeah. He said he doesn't listen to the show. He said. He said, Yeah, okay. Kay said occasionally

1:48:14

Adam Curry: haters, haters over there. Yeah. Well,

1:48:18

Dave Jones: he told Todd. He told Todd that Bitcoin was

1:48:23

illegal in India and this is not true. Illegal is not illegal in

1:48:27

India. Illegal is India. This is fake news. It's their bank.

1:48:33

Banks over there do heavy KYC on crypto stuff, but it's not

1:48:37

illegal. It's not any more illegal than it is in the US or

1:48:41

the UK. Adam Curry: Yeah. That's right. I put Rob's most recent article

1:48:48

in the show notes. Did you Wow. Because I thought the title was

1:48:52

just show notes worthy. is adding video the future of

1:48:56

successful podcasting strategy.

1:48:59

Dave Jones: Oh, he didn't put that in the show notes. Of Adam Curry: course I do. Of course. Oh, because you know,

1:49:04

enhances your monetization potential. It first it

1:49:08

personalizes and it personalization and complexity

1:49:11

and storytelling, video podcasts offer a rich platform for

1:49:15

storytelling. You can have synergy with social media

1:49:19

trends. I'm reading it. Yes. Dave Jones: Can you please play the Katherine Mark lips again

1:49:24

because there's more interesting. Adam Curry: I appreciate Rob. I appreciate it, but I just don't

1:49:33

see it. No,

1:49:35

Dave Jones: I hadn't. Adam Curry: I just don't see. I just don't see it. Wow. Okay. So

1:49:41

I, again, this was one of those board meetings where we got in

1:49:45

deep and, and I feel like we did get one step forward, maybe two

1:49:49

steps back but it sounds like you're going to be doing some

1:49:53

deep dives and we're going to come up with some more stuff and

1:49:55

I look forward to lots of Convos on the past I'd cast index dot

1:50:00

social. Everybody likes to weigh in. I love that. I love that.

1:50:05

Yeah, we're a little area there.

1:50:08

Dave Jones: Got some more namespace stuff to do this week and hopefully I'll have some. Hopefully I'm going to I'm going

1:50:13

to have a better fleshed out idea about open podcast because

1:50:17

I want to talk about that primarily next week. Okay.

1:50:19

Adam Curry: Do we have a guest next week? Oh, good. Okay. Just

1:50:23

you and me baby. Just the two of us just to say brother had

1:50:29

yourself a great weekend. All right, everybody. Thank you for

1:50:32

being here in the board meeting. We'll be back next week Friday.

1:50:35

See you then. Unknown: You have been listening to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast

1:50:56

index.org For more information, go podcast

1:51:02

Dave Jones: so that we can do hard stuff