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You're listening to Podcasting Made

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Simple.

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What's up, everybody? Alex Sanfilippo here. If I've not had the opportunity to meet

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you, this is Podcasting Made Simple live

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in a very different location. So if you're watching this, you might not

0:11

recognize my background or if you hear my

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velvety smooth voice, I don't usually have

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it because of this sweet mic.

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So quick shout out to the Biz bros. Content is profit is their podcast.

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Check it out. And we're a podcast studio suite.

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They were kind enough to lend us this room today. I'm joined by Tom Rossi, co -founder of

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Buzzsprout today.

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Tom, welcome, man. Hey, thanks for having me.

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Dude, I'm super excited about this, man. Me too. We were out skateboarding, electric

0:31

skateboarding.

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Is that what you call it? Is that what it is? Yeah. Electric skateboard. We were out doing that like a couple of

0:36

days ago. And then we like, we're at the end of our

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ride and we got into this like really deep

0:41

podcasting conversation. And right there I was like, bro, we have

0:42

to record this. Like this has got to be shared on

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Podcasting Made Simple. It's got to be part of the live event.

0:47

So dude, I'm really excited to dive into this today. And I got some notes here because I want

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to make sure that we are mindful of

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everyone's time and our time as well. What we're really talking about today,

0:53

though, is just extracting value from

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podcasting as a guest or as a host. Like, how do you extract value from it?

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And the first thing I want to mention is like. you always have to have the listeners in

1:01

mind.

1:04

Ultimately, we're all here to serve the

1:04

person who's listening on the mic, right?

1:07

It's gotta be valuable for them. Beyond that, what value is in it for us?

1:11

And so we're kind of gonna focus more on

1:11

that side, even though you all know, like

1:13

I'm all about leading with value, serving

1:13

the people that are listening.

1:16

And then how can we also capitalize on

1:16

that as well, because we should be able

1:19

to. And Tom, what are we gonna talk about today? The way that you just said it, I think is

1:21

perfect.

1:24

This idea that we're putting value out

1:24

there.

1:27

Right? We're putting that, hopefully if you're

1:27

doing a podcast, you're doing it to add

1:30

value and that's why people are listening to it. And so when we talk about, we were calling

1:32

it extracting value because I couldn't

1:36

come up with a better way. Too many times people talk about

1:37

monetization when really it's about how do

1:41

you extract value? You're putting value out.

1:43

Now how do you, like you just said, how do

1:43

I capitalize on some of that value and how

1:47

do I open up doors for the people that are

1:47

getting value to be able to share that

1:52

with me? You know, the podcasting 2 .0 community

1:53

coined the value for value, which I think

1:57

is, it's a great way to think about it, is

1:57

how do you get value for value?

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And there's a bunch of different ways to

2:01

do that.

2:03

And they don't all fall into monetization.

2:05

And so that's, that was what prompted our

2:05

conversation about extracting value.

2:09

I don't know a better way to say it. Yeah, no, it sounds a little, it does, we

2:10

don't mean to make that sound, if you like

2:14

sales, you're like, it should, it should

2:14

sound good, but.

2:16

It also sounds like you're, you're like.

2:18

sucking the life out of something like

2:18

extracting value, but I don't know another

2:22

way to say it. It's not about monetization because it

2:23

isn't always money.

2:26

It's just it's value. How do you get value out of it?

2:29

Yeah, no, it's good, man. I'm excited to dive into this. And I think we're gonna break into two

2:30

categories. The first thing is me downloads and the

2:32

second part will be actual monetization

2:35

kind of breaking those two sides. And we're obviously we're talking to

2:36

guests and hosts today. So we're thinking about like.

2:39

from the perspective of the host and from

2:39

the guest, right?

2:42

So we'll keep it high level on both sides

2:42

for both parties that are involved, either

2:46

side of the mic, right? So first off, just want downloads.

2:48

It was about a year ago, I think it was in

2:48

2023, I had you come on and you shared

2:52

some stats about actual podcast

2:52

listenership that both guests and hosts,

2:56

two things, it was very eye -opening, but

2:56

also very encouraging.

2:59

I'd love for you to share some of those

2:59

numbers again, just around that so that we

3:03

as guests and hosts can have the right

3:03

perspective about what is it we're getting

3:05

into from a numbers perspective. Sure. We recognize this maybe...

3:09

maybe a year or two ago, we started

3:09

looking at our numbers.

3:12

So Buzzsprout, we have a good number of

3:12

podcasts.

3:15

So we have over a hundred thousand active

3:15

podcasts, podcasts that are uploading new

3:19

episodes. And we wanted to share that data with

3:19

everyone because it's good for the

3:24

industry to be able to share those numbers. But one of the things that we didn't

3:26

expect was that there would be this

3:29

encouraging number, which is probably the

3:29

one that you're talking about.

3:32

So I just brought it up for, for last

3:32

month, the top 1 % of podcasts,

3:37

had 4 ,896 downloads in the first seven

3:37

days.

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So almost 5 ,000 downloads. I mean, that's really good.

3:44

But what's crazy is if you got more than

3:44

120, you're in the top 25%.

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So of 100 ,000 podcasts, active podcasts

3:50

on Buzzsprout, if you get more than 120

3:56

downloads in the first seven days, that

3:56

means 75 % of the other podcasts are not

4:01

getting as many downloads as you. We found that to be massively encouraging

4:03

because so many times you'll hear people

4:07

and they're like, well, I'm only getting

4:07

whatever, a hundred downloads on my most

4:11

recent episode and like, should I even be

4:11

doing this anymore?

4:14

And you hear those kinds of questions. And so you really want to encourage them

4:16

of like, look, you're doing it.

4:19

Like you're in the top percentage of

4:19

podcasters.

4:23

And so that's why we started sharing those numbers. And so anybody can go look at those

4:24

numbers, if you go to Buzzsprout .com

4:27

slash stats. We update them every month and we're just

4:28

very transparent with this is what we're

4:33

seeing, at least for our podcasts.

4:36

These are the numbers that we see. Yeah. And it's enough of a case study that I

4:38

would say that's industry wide or at least

4:42

very close. So thank you by the way for being transparent. Definitely for the independent podcasts,

4:43

right?

4:46

Like Buzzsprout is home for a lot of

4:46

independent podcasts, ones that aren't.

4:51

you know, part of a massive ad network or

4:51

anything like that.

4:54

Like, you're not gonna find... Joe Rogan's not gonna skew our stats.

4:57

He's not gonna be... Like, those type of podcasts are typically

4:58

gonna go somewhere where they're owned,

5:02

you know? So, it's different. So, it's more for indie podcasters.

5:05

Which, again, is great. Here's the thing I wanna share about that

5:07

first and foremost is I recently had

5:09

somebody reach out to me via email and

5:09

they were very frustrated with podcasting

5:14

in general. They weren't a member of Podmatch.

5:16

They... They hadn't heard, they recently just

5:16

heard me and they reached out and the

5:18

person referred themselves. They said, I'm a big name public speaker,

5:19

which that's a red flag.

5:23

I mean, yeah, I'm a big deal.

5:26

I'm a big deal. I'm like, you have to tell me you are, are

5:27

you? And I wasn't rude.

5:29

So I just kept the conversation going. And he said, it's a total waste of my time

5:30

if I want a podcast with less than 500

5:33

,000 people listening the first seven days. And I just asked, I said, and this is why

5:35

I want everyone to get this real quick.

5:38

It's not me bashing on somebody, but

5:38

podcast listeners are the same as people

5:42

sitting in seats. And so I asked, I said,

5:44

Hey, man, I'll just leave his name out. Hey, man, like when was the last time you

5:46

spoke in a room with 500 ,000 people in

5:49

it? And his response was not very nice, but

5:49

basically he's like, you can't compare

5:54

those two things. It's not the same at all, but the reality

5:54

is it actually really is the same.

5:57

The data on how people interact after a

5:57

podcast with a host versus a speaker on a

6:02

stage is actually very similar.

6:04

And so, but so many of us, we want to

6:04

compare it to, especially getting on the

6:07

guesting side of it. Nothing bad about guests, but we get

6:08

conditioned by social media thinking, oh,

6:11

this will be another marketing method. similar to how social media works.

6:14

And so you get 10 ,000 likes or views on

6:14

social media and we're like, well,

6:17

podcasting should be the same. But again, it's not the same.

6:19

It's not a two second scroll past or

6:19

double tap for a like.

6:23

It's 30, 45 minutes, an hour of somebody

6:23

listening to everything that you share and

6:27

you're developing that no like and trust

6:27

in a way that only a stage can compare

6:32

with. Yeah. There's something different about

6:32

podcasting.

6:35

That's what everything shows. Alvin wrote an article.

6:38

I think that was the title of it. You know, there's something different

6:39

about podcasting, but it's this idea of

6:42

comparing engagement. When people are engaged in podcast in a

6:43

way that's different than just liking

6:47

something on Instagram or Facebook, just,

6:47

you know, giving it a thumbs up versus

6:51

engaging with the content for 30 minutes,

6:51

which is what you see with podcasting is

6:56

people really do that. And they form a much different

6:57

relationship with the content, right?

7:01

It's something, I don't know, it's just

7:01

something that's more intimate about it.

7:04

I don't see, I'm just listening, but

7:04

you're like in my ear and we see that

7:10

listeners have a relationship with the

7:10

podcast, with the podcast host and the

7:14

guests that they bring on that's

7:14

different.

7:16

If they endorse a product, if they make a

7:16

recommendation about changes to their

7:20

lifestyle, people are more likely to

7:20

listen to it.

7:23

Why is that? It's because podcasting is different.

7:25

It's just different. Yeah. And this seat that we share right now,

7:27

right? The guest and host seat.

7:30

I always find that the basis of all

7:30

friendship and relationship is upon

7:33

meaningful experience. And for most people that aren't like media

7:34

trained, been on TV a lot, like this is a

7:38

meaningful experience that people are

7:38

having, whether it's in person or remote,

7:41

it doesn't really make a difference. That to them is something to remember.

7:43

They're telling their friends and family about it. I was on a podcast the other day, right?

7:46

Like, you're like, what? Tell me about that. It's not quite the same as going like on a

7:47

whitewater rafting adventure or anything

7:51

like that, but it does hold a similar weight. And I always say that, man, guests and

7:53

hosts are more primed to do more together

7:57

after. They've been on a podcast. You don't really forget that person.

8:00

Like you forget the person who just slid

8:00

into your DMs once like, Hey, what's up?

8:02

You know, like you forget that that's not

8:02

really meaningful, but this you're

8:05

creating something valuable that serves

8:05

other people together.

8:08

That's a meaningful experience. I think that's just the beginning of what

8:09

could be a great relationship regardless

8:13

of the downloads. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

8:15

And there's so many different

8:15

relationships that start in that, right.

8:19

Where it could be between the podcast host

8:19

and the guest.

8:22

It could be between a listener and the

8:22

host or guest where the listener reaches

8:26

out. and says, you know, I want to connect with

8:26

you because of this thing that I'm doing

8:31

with my business. And you mentioned this thing. Like, I know personally, I've done that

8:33

with multiple podcasts, hosts and guests

8:37

that I've reached out to say, Hey, I heard

8:37

you on a podcast and I really want to

8:40

connect. So I definitely see that.

8:42

That's cool. The way that you and I actually first

8:43

connected is I had a guest on my podcast

8:45

that resonated with you and you like reached out. And I was like, no way.

8:48

Cause I was, you know, I'm a bus prep

8:48

paying customer, huge fan.

8:50

I was like, This is Tom Rossi.

8:52

I'm like, no way. And you're like, bro, good job. We got a FaceTime call.

8:55

I was like, oh, thank you. Super nervous.

8:58

But that was years ago. That was kind of the start of a

8:59

relationship.

9:01

It's like a really interesting case study,

9:01

which we'll get into more on the actual

9:05

monetization side and, again, extracting

9:05

value being the idea here.

9:07

But one more thing before we move on from this. So 125 is what you said is kind of the top

9:09

25 percentile.

9:12

Is that the number? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to mention on that, then, is

9:14

like it's actually just 120.

9:17

So 120 puts you in the top 25%, 480 puts

9:17

you in the top 10%.

9:22

See, those numbers aren't, that's

9:22

realistic.

9:24

Yeah, exactly. The reason I mention that, like for me,

9:25

the way that I've grown my podcast is I

9:28

just tell one person about it every day. Like I literally have it written down on

9:29

my to -do list. Every day is tell one person about my

9:31

podcast. And I was like, I want to monetize my

9:33

show. I'll send them an episode about it.

9:35

Or I'm thinking about quitting. I'll send them this episode when it comes

9:36

out, right? Right. And that's my one new listener every day.

9:40

And if you do that for 120 days in a row,

9:40

you're in the top 10 percentile.

9:43

Like, it seems really like...

9:45

possible, right? And so I guess I love practical.

9:48

So I'm going to put you on the spot here, Tom. Have you seen anything that podcasters or

9:49

the guests are helping do that helps

9:53

people bump up to that level? Like, have you seen something that really

9:55

just seems to move the needle? I think the most effective way for people

9:57

to grow their show is by going on other

10:01

shows. So if they go on as a guest on another

10:02

show, then both shows increase.

10:08

You know, because the listeners of the one

10:08

podcast go listen to the other one and the

10:12

of the one podcast listen to the other one. And so you both grow.

10:15

And so I think I mean, I've seen that as

10:15

being the most effective way to grow your

10:19

audience is by being on other podcasts.

10:22

I like that on the guest side here. What I've seen helps the most is I know

10:23

hosts really like when guests repost stuff

10:27

that comes out and I do all that. But what I've done that has helped the

10:28

most is I actually create a blog post on

10:32

my website. I have a section for like me appearing on

10:33

other podcasts.

10:35

We write a little about it and we link out

10:35

to their show and hosts have been telling

10:38

me, Hey, that's like, I can see traffic

10:38

coming from your website to mine to listen

10:42

to this podcast episode. So like there's little things that the

10:43

guests can do as well to help.

10:46

And I'll be real, man. Like when I'm on a podcast and my episode

10:47

is the most popular, I'll say this, I

10:50

don't, no one can spell my name. Very few can say it, right?

10:53

So, and I don't have like this huge clout,

10:53

like of being like someone who's a

10:57

celebrity or famous by any means, but like

10:57

I put in the extra effort and it's often,

11:00

I'm often told that my podcast on that

11:00

show, like me as the guest is the most

11:04

popular they've ever had. And so I get invited back or I get

11:05

introduced to their friends, right?

11:09

And so for me, I always say like as a

11:09

guest, do your, do your little bit of work

11:12

to help them get to that. 120 listeners in the first seven days,

11:13

right?

11:15

Like if that's their current goal, just do

11:15

your part to share it.

11:18

And I always say like, you should be really proud of it. If you're honest, be proud of it, be

11:19

willing to share it.

11:22

It's kind of red flagged when someone's like, I don't wanna share that. I'm like, ooh, did I do a bad job?

11:25

Did you do a bad job? Why not? What did you say?

11:28

And that's also why I tell people like,

11:28

keep a cadence, it's realistic.

11:31

Like nothing against people who go on a

11:31

hundred shows in like 30 days and stuff.

11:33

I know it's become like quite popular, but

11:33

like for me, I can't share that much

11:36

content. No one cares that much about me, right? I'm not selling myself short, but if I do

11:38

one or two a month, I can share it

11:41

throughout that month. And it's really valuable.

11:44

So versus just like having so much that is

11:44

overwhelming.

11:46

So. And that's a really good example, too, of

11:47

where it can be very effective when the

11:51

guest shares the content. It's good for the guest because hopefully

11:53

I'm assuming that they said things on the

11:57

show that was valuable, that represents

11:57

them.

11:59

But you've got to sometimes make the ask,

11:59

hey, would you mind sharing this?

12:02

Would you put this out in your socials? Would you?

12:04

And sometimes podcasters won't do that

12:04

because they feel like it's an imposition

12:08

or they just don't do it. They just don't think about it.

12:11

And that's a really good point. Yeah. I want to flip gears here.

12:13

One more thing right there I got to share with the audience real quick. Something that a host recently did for me

12:15

is they told me exactly what value I added

12:20

in that podcast episode. And they asked, hey, if you know anyone

12:21

who has an interest in learning this about

12:25

you, this is what you can share with them,

12:25

the episode.

12:27

And man, I was like, wow, that's good.

12:29

And so I built out like we use an app

12:29

called Text Expander, which gives you like

12:32

little codes. So anytime someone's like, hey, so what's

12:33

your background? I send them that episode where I was a

12:34

guest because I dove so deep into it.

12:38

And so like, people were like, wow, this is really great. And then I saved myself.

12:41

hours of trying to explain, right? I'm like, this 25 minute episode does a

12:43

really good job explaining who I am.

12:47

People are like, wow, I really connected

12:47

with that, right?

12:49

So anyway, for what it's worth, I think

12:49

that's a great thing to do as well.

12:51

But for sake of time, I want to move on to

12:51

the monetization side of things.

12:53

So I actually want monetization, which

12:53

doesn't always mean what we think it does.

12:58

I'm just going to turn it over to you. Let's go on this. Well, that was what we talked about, this

13:00

idea that when you got into podcasting,

13:05

you had some idea in your mind of what

13:05

success.

13:08

looked like. And all too often we forget once we get

13:09

into it because we're surrounded by tons

13:14

of people in the industry that tell us

13:14

that it's all about downloads and it's all

13:17

about monetization. When there's so many, I'm not saying that

13:19

those are bad.

13:21

I'm just saying that those aren't the only

13:21

ways to extract value out of your podcast

13:26

or to get value or to experience the

13:26

success that you got into podcasting for.

13:31

And so... thinking through all the other ways, and

13:32

then you and I were just rattling off.

13:35

There are just so many different

13:35

strategies for how you could use a podcast

13:39

to be able to capitalize on the value that

13:39

you're putting out into the network, what

13:43

you can do to get it back. Yeah. You know, I'll share one real quick, and I

13:45

want to hear some examples from you.

13:48

One that, and I just share this with you. I had somebody, my podcast went with small

13:49

and I, I mean, I don't even think I, I

13:53

think it was pre -launch and this guy had

13:53

created to come on and we built a great

13:56

relationship. He's very high up at Stripe.

13:59

And that's who we decided to go with

13:59

because of that relationship I had when we

14:03

built Podmatch out. And I know we send them five or six

14:04

figures a year.

14:07

And he built that by coming on my show

14:07

with nobody listening to it because it

14:10

hadn't launched yet. Right. And so like that's like for that guess,

14:11

that was a really strategic, great and he

14:16

didn't mean for it to be. He was just there to have fun. Right. But that ended up being a really great

14:18

relationship because we could have gone

14:20

with other options. There's options besides Stripe. But we decide that.

14:22

I'm like, hey, I got a buddy who's there

14:22

and I want to make sure like he's been

14:25

really nice to me. And so we had that relationship like.

14:28

I mean, I guess you could put a dollar on

14:28

that five or six figures.

14:31

Like is that a dollar figure? Like on that one interview that happened.

14:34

But I want you to riff on some of these, man. What are some ideas that you share with

14:36

me? One of my favorites that I wouldn't have

14:37

thought.

14:40

A friend of mine has a podcast and she is

14:40

an aspiring author.

14:45

So she's got an agent, but she hasn't

14:45

picked up.

14:47

She hasn't been picked up by a publisher yet. And so she started a podcast and she

14:49

brings on agents.

14:54

She brings on other authors.

14:57

And as a result, she's having

14:57

conversations with people that would never

15:00

have a conversation with her, but because

15:00

she's on a podcast and it's a very tight

15:05

niche, right? Because it's geared towards just authors,

15:05

people that are aspiring authors and the

15:10

guests, it's great for them because if I'm

15:10

an agent, I'm trying to meet aspiring

15:13

authors that have great content and it's

15:13

great for her because she's having a

15:16

conversation, she's getting their phone

15:16

number, she's able to follow up with them.

15:19

And so I was talking to her about, you

15:19

know, monetization or whatever, this idea

15:23

of extracting value. And she's like, for her, it's all about...

15:26

opening doors, even if she doesn't get one

15:26

download, she's getting all the value out

15:30

of just being able to have these relationships. I thought it was a great example.

15:34

I think it's a good one. But like, even if you're just a listener,

15:34

like if there is one download, that's

15:38

someone else opening the door and you're going to peek in it. Yeah. Right.

15:40

That's like that. That's the view that you're getting as a listener. So anyone in the same boat that she's in

15:42

is like, oh, this is I'm going to do this

15:46

too, but I'm just going to sit back and peek in the door when she opens them. Right.

15:48

Yeah. Yeah. I had a conversation with another

15:49

podcaster when we launched Buzzsprout ads,

15:53

which is. a form of monetization, being able to

15:53

accept ads and have them in there.

15:56

I was talking to somebody because I was

15:56

surprised at how many people were running

16:00

ads that didn't have a strategy for like,

16:00

how are you extracting value out of your

16:05

podcast? So if you run an ad, you should probably

16:05

know how you're going to get value out of

16:08

it so you can figure out is it worth it? You know, am I spending the right amount

16:10

of money? So anyways, long story short, I was at a

16:12

conference and I was just asking people,

16:15

how do you, how do you judge the value

16:15

that you're getting out of your podcast?

16:18

And I asked somebody and he's like, my

16:18

podcast, he said, it's my business card.

16:22

And I loved it. I thought it was perfect. He's like, my podcast is my business card.

16:26

Like people listen to the podcast, then

16:26

they call me and they hire me.

16:30

They use me as a consultant. And one consulting gig is worth tens of

16:31

thousands of dollars.

16:35

Like, why am I? It's not about the podcast.

16:38

It's not about the downloads. It's my business card. It helps bring stuff in.

16:41

I was like, that's a totally different way

16:41

of thinking about your podcast that is

16:45

outside the norm of what a lot of the

16:45

industry tells you is the only way to

16:49

extract value is through. monetization and downloads.

16:53

And I appreciate you mentioning ads. I want to kind of transfer that because so

16:55

many people on both sides of the micro is

16:57

like, what kind of ads you're running? Like what's going on here? What's your CPM?

17:00

Right. All those things. And I appreciate the Buzzsprout ads exist

17:01

and it does definitely serve a purpose,

17:05

but I want you to talk a little bit more

17:05

about like knowing what that purpose is

17:08

before you're just flipping a switch and

17:08

turning it on.

17:10

Yeah, exactly. I think there are people that they want to

17:12

make money off their podcast.

17:16

They want to straight up just make money

17:16

off of downloads or maybe they want to

17:19

make money, but they don't. They want to buy a new microphone.

17:22

They want to cover their hosting fees. Bus Brought Ads was designed very easy.

17:27

You go, you enable it. And now once you get a certain number of

17:28

downloads, right?

17:31

Because if you don't, if you don't have a

17:31

thousand downloads in a month, you

17:33

probably don't want to start putting ads

17:33

into your podcast.

17:36

You're not going to make that much money. And...

17:39

You don't want to put that in front of your audience. So anyways, once you get a certain

17:41

threshold, you can just enable it.

17:44

It's the least amount of effort required.

17:46

Therefore, it is the least form of

17:46

monetization, right?

17:50

Like you're going to make the least amount

17:50

of money, but it's also the least amount

17:53

of effort that you have to put forth.

17:55

And so Buzzsprout ads, we built it for

17:55

that purpose really just because people

17:58

really wanted it. And we wanted to give them a way to be

17:59

able to, you know, pay for that microphone

18:03

or cover their hosting fees or, you know,

18:03

do things like that.

18:06

I love that man. It's a good heart behind it. A friend of mine says something very

18:08

similar you just said.

18:10

It's that it requires the least amount of

18:10

work so it gets the least amount of

18:13

result, right? Yes. I have a friend who says, do the work to

18:14

get the result, just please do the right

18:17

work. That's what he always says. And so when you talk about the work that's

18:19

involved, can you explain more on how you

18:23

can extract value by putting a little bit

18:23

more work?

18:25

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think one of the best ways to extract

18:26

value out of your podcast is to find

18:31

products that are in line with your

18:31

listenership.

18:34

So you and I were talking about a Dungeons

18:34

and Dragons podcast, right?

18:38

Like I've been known to throw the 20

18:38

-sided die, you know, like, okay.

18:41

But you've got a Dungeons and Dragons

18:41

podcast and you go and you find, you know,

18:45

a cool dice manufacturer, right?

18:48

Like it's such a tight niche.

18:51

So now even if you only have a hundred

18:51

listeners to your podcast, those are a

18:55

hundred listeners that would probably love

18:55

to hear about that.

18:57

you know, package of dice that's really

18:57

cool or different.

19:01

And then you, as the podcaster, you can

19:01

have an affiliate link.

19:04

Hey, you tell the affiliate, I only want

19:04

to get paid when you get paid.

19:07

If you get a sale, I want a percentage of

19:07

the sale.

19:09

What a great way to do monetization,

19:09

right?

19:12

Because now you're totally in with the

19:12

product.

19:15

You only get paid if they get paid. They're excited about that.

19:17

You're excited about that. As long as they have a way of tracking it,

19:18

it's a great way to do it.

19:21

So affiliate marketing, I think that's

19:21

what we would call affiliate, is when you

19:24

find a product that's in line with...

19:27

whatever your podcast is about.

19:30

You don't want to do, you know, a Casper

19:30

mattress on a Dungeons and Dragons

19:36

podcast. You can, but you're not gonna, like, it's

19:37

not gonna resonate with your audience.

19:40

You're way better to do the work, find a

19:40

product that you like.

19:44

Like, you don't want to trade on that

19:44

trust that they've built with you, right?

19:48

Those listeners trust you. And so when you tell them, look, I've used

19:49

this product, I like this product,

19:53

It's got to be true. You can't just, you know, trade on that.

19:57

So, yeah, I think that's a great example

19:57

of doing the work.

20:00

Finding an affiliate is one way to do it.

20:02

Sponsorship is another one. Find somebody who maybe they don't have a

20:03

product to sell, but they want to get

20:08

their name out. They want to get their brand out. Well, now you could have them sponsor your

20:10

podcast.

20:12

And I recommend that when you do a

20:12

sponsorship, you do it for a period of

20:15

time. Don't do it per episode because your

20:16

episodes, one of the great things about

20:19

podcasting is that that episode will live

20:19

on.

20:22

Right? And you have no idea where you might end

20:22

up.

20:25

And so the last thing that you want to do

20:25

is have an episode that you recorded with

20:28

a sponsorship that now you're blowing up

20:28

and it's hurting your ability to, you

20:34

know, go different directions with your

20:34

podcast because you've got this old

20:37

episode that you promised you would leave

20:37

the sponsorship in there forever.

20:40

So I recommend sell a sponsorship.

20:43

A lot of work to be able to find a

20:43

sponsor, but sell it for a period of time.

20:46

And that buzz sprout, we have something

20:46

called dynamic content.

20:48

A lot of the hosts have some form of

20:48

dynamic content where you can upload with

20:54

your audio, you can upload, hey, here's a

20:54

whatever 30 second clip for a sponsorship.

20:57

And you can say this month we're sponsored

20:57

by, you know, Dungeons and Dragons dice.

21:02

And, you know, go check it out here. So something like that, sponsorships,

21:03

affiliates, I think those require more

21:07

work, but you get a lot more value than

21:07

just getting paid CPM.

21:09

Yeah. Dynamic insertion is great, by the way.

21:12

Anyone who's listened to podcasting made

21:12

simple this show for a period of time

21:15

knows that a week before the event comes,

21:15

before you podcast made simple live, I'm

21:20

going to have an announcement and that

21:20

only takes me two seconds.

21:22

I literally hit dynamic insertion at the

21:22

beginning of every episode on all of my

21:26

entire back catalog, every episode I have done. Right.

21:28

And so it's a beautiful thing. Thanks for that. I'm surprised how many people when we're

21:29

at conferences, we'll ask people about

21:33

certain features and I'm surprised at how

21:33

many people don't understand dynamic

21:37

content. They. They think, oh, it's only for ads.

21:39

Well, I don't have any ads or I'm not doing ads. I'm like, you could use dynamic content

21:41

for anything. You could announce your newsletter.

21:44

You could announce an event that's coming

21:44

up.

21:47

Right. Or it could be an affiliate or a

21:47

sponsorship, but it doesn't have to be so

21:50

many different ways to use it. Yeah. Thanks again for that, man.

21:53

Jumping back to some couple of things you said. One thing I want to highlight real quick

21:54

is that your podcast lives on forever.

21:58

I recently started getting hit up about a

21:58

podcast I was on over two years ago.

22:04

And people were like, dude, that was so good. And I had to go back.

22:06

I'm like, well, which one was it? That show. just became binge worthy, I guess.

22:09

Like people started going back to the

22:09

whole back catalog.

22:12

And so I had tons of people reaching out. And so for a guest who's like, oh, this

22:13

podcast doesn't look like it has enough

22:17

listenership yet, so I don't want to be on

22:17

it.

22:19

Maybe you should. Right. Because at some point, people are going to

22:21

go back and find that.

22:23

And you never know when that podcast

22:23

starts to take off.

22:25

So if it has a formula and recipe for

22:25

serving your same audience that you show

22:30

up for, get on that show now. and get in the back catalog, right?

22:33

You never know what's gonna blow up. I just discovered a podcast the other day.

22:37

It was a leadership podcast that intrigued

22:37

me.

22:40

And I went back and I started episode one

22:40

from 2017.

22:44

So this content that was created in 2017

22:44

is still serving.

22:48

It's still adding value. It's still, you know, getting downloads

22:49

and it's got different guests.

22:54

Every episode they have different guests. And so those guests are continuing to get

22:56

downloads.

22:58

This makes me think about the listener now

22:58

or sorry, the guest seat, right?

23:02

You're talking about like affiliates,

23:02

finding a partner and stuff like that.

23:04

You can also do this at the episode level. So if you're a podcast guest and you have

23:05

a product or service, you're looking out

23:09

there, gift it to the host or do something

23:09

that they can see inside of it.

23:13

And that episode can forever be an

23:13

affiliates or some sort of partner with

23:18

what it is that you're offering people. And you can kind of let that live on.

23:21

I did that with one guy on my podcast. It was probably my first 50 episodes.

23:24

And still to this day, people reach out to

23:24

him because of it.

23:27

And he reaches out to me saying, hey, man,

23:27

I think I owe you a lot of money because

23:30

this person came to that podcast that we

23:30

did four years ago, right?

23:33

Like, or whatever, whenever it was. And it's like, man, that's kind of cool.

23:36

Like you have the opportunity back and

23:36

forth to be able to serve together as well

23:39

creatively. If you're like, hey, I don't necessarily

23:40

want to align with just one sponsor.

23:43

You can have one per episode if it's your

23:43

guest.

23:45

Again, as long as it really has your

23:45

audience in mind.

23:47

Going back to Dungeons and Dragons, you

23:47

can keep selling the mattress.

23:50

I think it'd be a hard sell to be like, You want to show up good for your guild,

23:52

get a good night of sleep.

23:54

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard sell. Like it's got to really truly align to

23:56

serve the person that's listening.

24:00

Yeah. Yeah. When you think about that, that trust

24:01

factor, I think it's really important for

24:04

podcasters and it carries so much weight

24:04

when you, when you tell your listeners,

24:09

look, I care about you as my listener.

24:11

And that's why I've found this product. Cause I think you're going to love it.

24:14

And that's why I'm going to share it as

24:14

opposed to, Hey,

24:16

Gotta pay the bills somehow, so maybe you

24:16

should buy a mattress, right?

24:19

I think there's a related way of

24:19

extracting value, which again, I'm

24:24

surprised more podcasters don't do it, but

24:24

it's just listener support.

24:27

It's just saying, look, I bought a

24:27

microphone, I'm recording these episodes,

24:31

I hope you get value, I hope you get

24:31

something out of the episodes that I'm

24:35

creating. And if you do, consider supporting the

24:35

show.

24:39

Consider, with Buzzsprout, we have

24:39

Buzzsprout subscriptions, other people use

24:42

Patreon, there's all different ways to... to do it, but to say, look, consider

24:44

supporting the show.

24:47

I think we as podcasters need to educate

24:47

listeners that it doesn't just happen by

24:52

accident, right? Whatever, 10, 20 % of the effort that you

24:54

do on your podcast happens behind the

24:58

microphone. Everything else, the other 80%, listeners

24:59

don't know anything about.

25:02

And so educating them to say, hey, look, I

25:02

hope you're getting value out of this.

25:06

I'm putting a lot of my own time and money

25:06

and blood, sweat, and tears.

25:10

Consider supporting the show. It's not...

25:13

It's not begging. It's not a guilt trip. It's just saying if you get value,

25:14

consider sharing some of that value with

25:17

us. And there's something that you said to me

25:18

again, while we were probably riding

25:21

skateboards. I feel like that's where we have a lot of

25:21

good conversations.

25:24

And this is something that I heard a lot

25:24

of podcasters say, but I didn't really

25:27

know how to respond to it. And it's this when a podcaster says, well,

25:28

I don't really have anything premium to

25:32

offer. Oh, yeah, that drives me crazy.

25:34

Share your perspective. Like was very enlightening to me. I've used a lot.

25:36

It's very encouraging people. Can you just share like?

25:38

Sure. So so what happened was we launched

25:39

Buzzsprout subscriptions and then we went

25:42

to thing was Podfest and so we had just

25:42

launched it and I was asking people as

25:46

they came up I said hey what do you think

25:46

about Buzzsprout subscriptions and and so

25:50

many people were like well I don't have

25:50

any I don't have any premium content I one

25:56

everybody can ask for listener support and

25:56

two everything you do is premium right

26:01

like you're not you're creating something

26:01

of value and so

26:05

By saying that, you're diminishing the

26:05

value of what it is that you're creating,

26:10

right? Like you're not just throwing it out to

26:10

see if it sticks.

26:13

You're actually building something of value. And so having that mentality will come

26:15

across in the way that you communicate to

26:18

your listeners, right? When you talk about, man, I hope you're

26:19

getting a lot of value out of this.

26:22

I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying putting it together for you.

26:25

I hope you're getting value out of it. As opposed to, ah, this isn't really that

26:26

valuable, but this other stuff over here,

26:30

yeah, if you pay a little extra, I'll give

26:30

you the real valuable stuff.

26:33

And so I'm not a fan of the premium. content just because of that.

26:37

I think there's a way for it to work, but

26:37

you really got to evaluate if that's a

26:43

good direction for you to go with your podcast. I'm a much bigger fan of, hey, I don't

26:44

want to do that.

26:49

I don't want to take this. This content, I hope you're finding it

26:50

valuable.

26:52

I don't want to put it behind a paywall. Consider supporting the show so that I

26:54

don't have to.

26:56

I hope I don't have to put in a mattress

26:56

ad.

26:58

Consider supporting the show. But you know, I'm paying money.

27:01

I'm buying microphones. I'm doing things, you know?

27:04

So... And I've talked to other podcasters who

27:04

were specific about the money that they,

27:09

like, I really want to buy this specific

27:09

microphone.

27:11

They put it out to their listeners and

27:11

they had a listener buy them the

27:14

microphone and ship it to them. Like stuff like that, like educate

27:15

listeners on, it doesn't just happen by

27:19

accident, you know? Yeah. I think a little bit of imposter syndrome

27:21

goes in there. Yeah.

27:23

But people care. People really do care. I knew you were going to say that, that

27:25

somebody bought a microphone.

27:27

Like I was like, I know what happened here. Like I can already tell you the end of

27:29

that story. Cause that's, that's what people that are

27:30

getting value from you, cause it's premium

27:33

content. Want to give back.

27:35

Yeah. Yeah. And it goes back. And there's also that intimate.

27:39

It's a strange intimate relationship that

27:39

occurs between the host, the guest and the

27:44

listeners. Like there's something different about

27:44

that kind of connection.

27:47

And we see over and over again, anytime

27:47

they do surveys and they talk to podcast

27:50

listeners, podcast listeners want to

27:50

connect more with the people that are on

27:55

the podcast that they listen to. And it's because there's this connection

27:56

that happens with them.

27:59

And that's great. Tom, we're near the end of our time here,

28:00

man. So I think we covered a lot of the things.

28:03

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Any final thoughts for podcast guests and

28:05

hosts that are listening, attending today,

28:08

whatever it might be? I think as you get into podcasting, just

28:09

having having some goals of like, what

28:13

what is it that makes you want to start a

28:13

podcast or what is it that makes you want

28:17

to be a guest on a podcast? Like articulate what is the destination

28:19

that I want to end up?

28:23

Why am I doing this? The more that you can clearly articulate

28:25

that, the better the chances are that

28:28

you're gonna find a path to get to that

28:28

destination, as opposed to just throwing

28:33

it out there to see what sticks. Have a destination in mind, and then be

28:34

intentional about the path that you choose

28:39

to get there. And don't let other people dictate what

28:39

that destination is.

28:43

Answer it for yourself, for your own, for

28:43

your business, or for where you wanna be

28:46

personally. Where is it that you wanna go and then

28:47

follow the right path to get there?

28:50

Thank you so much for the time, David.

28:52

No problem. Thanks for having me. For more episodes, please visit podmatch

28:54

.com forward slash episodes.

28:58

Thank you so much for listening.