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Welcome to Podland. The last word in

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podcasting news.

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It's the 26th of August, 2021.

0:24

I'm James crude and the

0:24

editor of pod news.net

0:26

here in Australia.

0:27

Hello, I'm Sam Steffi. The editor of Sam

0:30

Talks Technology and I'm emo Tara. And later I'll be talking about

0:32

podcast apps and why they suck

0:37

pod lands a weekly podcast where Sam and I delve deeper into

0:39

the week's podcasting

0:41

news. So James let's get on with

0:42

the big stories of that

0:44

week here in Portland. And they're taken

0:45

from a pod news.

0:48

How was podcasting

0:48

doing for Spotify?

0:51

James? Let's start off with our massive

0:53

question like that. Yes. let's start off with a

0:54

massive question like that. It turns out the business

0:56

insider got some leaked

0:58

data from September

0:58

of last year, 331.

1:03

Million hours of podcasts.

1:05

They measure podcasts by

1:05

the hour at Spotify in that

1:09

month, September 18.7% of

1:09

all podcasts time listened

1:13

to was made by Spotify. So 18% seems to say that Spotify

1:16

is doing quite well, but Gimlet

1:21

accounted for just not 0.4%

1:21

of all podcasts listening.

1:24

I'd given it was bought

1:24

for $230 million and the.

1:28

Commentary around that from

1:28

business insider is, was Gimlet

1:32

really a very good investment. And I kind of wonder,

1:36

it doesn't seem like

1:36

it's getting much value now.

1:39

Gimlet, we're a bit peeved

1:39

though, because they

1:41

started putting out on

1:41

Gimlet reply or a tweet.

1:44

What did they say,

1:45

James? they posted this very strange

1:46

tweet, basically saying ever

1:50

since we were sold to Spotify,

1:50

we haven't had any control

1:54

over the ads and just know

1:54

that we don't endorse the ad,

1:57

which is currently running. And then there was a pause

1:59

and then we meant the

2:01

ad for the U S Miller. Okay.

2:04

Somebody at reply all is not

2:04

particularly happy about their

2:07

show being used to recruit

2:07

new soldiers and stuff.

2:12

as I said on the pod news

2:12

podcast, a couple of days ago,

2:15

the children are fighting again. It really does

2:18

feel like that. Nick Hilton, right? Good posting medium

2:20

about the separation of

2:23

creators and advertisers. And I feels like it's an old

2:24

argument, the magazine, and

2:27

paperworld used to have this

2:27

where advertisers want to slam

2:30

an advert right next to content. And it seemed inappropriate.

2:34

He said, I expect a relationship

2:34

between a show and an

2:37

advertiser and podcasting that

2:37

I don't in any other medium.

2:40

So I think what he's trying to say. And he might be trying to back

2:42

a Gimlet, which is look, if

2:46

the show's about, I dunno,

2:46

cooking, is it appropriate

2:49

to slam an ad for the U S

2:49

military right next to it?

2:52

It doesn't seem appropriately

2:54

related. yeah. And I think also podcasting

2:55

is very much closer to

2:59

the advertisers in terms

2:59

of, for example, later

3:02

when I talked to you. Yeah. Evo talks about a feature that

3:03

he would really like, am I pop

3:07

in which you'll hear later and

3:07

say, and Buzzsprout offers that

3:11

and Buzzsprout is our sponsor. And I talk about that for a bit.

3:14

That's the sort of thing that

3:14

podcast listeners expect is that

3:19

closer relationships, I think

3:19

next, absolutely right there.

3:22

You don't expect that close

3:22

relationship and India.

3:25

It's very much frowned upon. When you look at the print

3:26

media, everybody talks

3:29

about, the relationship

3:29

between church and state

3:31

and all this kind of stuff. But actually I think

3:33

that there is something

3:35

there around podcasting

3:35

being much more intimate.

3:39

if you're playing the drinking game. Yes. Did say intimate, have

3:42

another drink about podcast

3:45

advertising and, yeah. So I think Nick's

3:46

absolutely right there. Now,

3:48

Matt Deegan also has

3:48

written about what's been going

3:51

on with the Spotify figures

3:51

and he said, it's interesting

3:55

to see hours consumed rather

3:55

than downloads, which is what

3:57

you just said, James, as a

3:57

streamer, it's a metric that's

4:01

pretty exclusive to Spotify. They know what you actually

4:03

listened to rather than just

4:05

adding up downloads, which is

4:05

what I've been saying for a long

4:09

time that I think downloads. Oh, dead.

4:12

As a metric let's as an

4:12

industry, get rid of them,

4:15

because I think it's the dirty

4:15

little secret of podcasting,

4:19

you'll say to advertisers,

4:19

yeah, we had 500 downloads or

4:23

5,000 or whatever your number

4:23

may be as an advertiser.

4:26

You don't know whether your

4:26

advert was listened to or not.

4:29

Whereas Spotify can actually

4:29

tell you how far along

4:33

the stream the podcast was

4:33

listened to and therefore,

4:37

whether your ad was, I think. The industry ourselves

4:39

needs to move away from the

4:42

CPC model to a CPA model.

4:45

I think cost per

4:45

thousand versus cost per action

4:48

is a different conversation. But I do think certainly

4:49

that, Brian Violetta in

4:53

sounds profitable, very

4:53

good website newsletter

4:55

sounds profitable.com. he was saying that apple

4:56

actually missed a trick.

4:59

Obviously apple had a bug with

4:59

some versions of apple podcasts

5:02

recently, which essentially meant that they weren't automatically downloading shows.

5:06

And he was saying that

5:06

apple missed a trick because

5:08

actually it will be better

5:08

for the industry if we were

5:11

to stop automatic downloads. Now, I think that apple don't

5:13

necessarily think that's

5:17

particularly fair because

5:17

I think that, it's just

5:19

somebody else piling onto

5:19

apple and apple have not had

5:22

a very good couple of months

5:22

and I can quite see apples.

5:26

But, I can also, I think

5:26

the point that, I took out

5:30

of Brian's piece was that

5:30

auto downloads shouldn't

5:35

be the default in any

5:35

podcast app these days.

5:39

We don't really need it these days. I'm not saying get

5:40

rid of downloads. Altogether.

5:44

I'm not saying even get rid of auto downloads. But what I am saying is

5:46

for the vast majority

5:49

of people, we don't need

5:49

automatic downloads anymore.

5:51

It would make for much better

5:51

stats, it would make for

5:54

much better information for

5:54

advertisers and frankly much

5:57

better ad targeting as well. If we didn't have

5:59

auto downloads. And instead when you press

6:01

the play button, that is the

6:05

user initiated download, that

6:05

gets the podcast for you.

6:09

I think. A bug or a feature

6:10

when it first came out.

6:12

And I still think he should have been a feature, apple called it a

6:15

bug, but it's a

6:15

difficult thing because if

6:17

you then turn around and you

6:17

say, that's 11% of podcasts,

6:20

which are auto downloaded

6:20

and never listened to.

6:23

We know that number now, which

6:23

we've never known in the past.

6:27

So that's a glimpse into that

6:27

data because of apple podcasts.

6:32

But yeah. Which means that there are a

6:33

significantly larger amount of

6:38

podcasts, which are out there

6:38

now, which are never being

6:40

listened to, it's all priced

6:40

into the cost per thousand.

6:43

So I don't think it's a

6:43

problem for the industry, but

6:46

a wouldn't it be interesting

6:46

if there was a change in the

6:51

way that we thought about

6:51

these things and that actually

6:53

also downloads wasn't given

6:53

to people by default, by some

6:57

of these large, apps and yeah. It's very difficult to get

7:00

Spotify to automatically

7:03

download shows. it's very difficult to get

7:04

Google podcasts to automatically

7:07

download shows in PocketCasts,

7:07

downloading is something which

7:11

you turn on, but in overcast

7:11

and in apple podcasts, auto

7:15

downloads are on by default and

7:15

maybe that's the best thing.

7:18

Maybe we need

7:19

a new metric cost per listen. That would be an

7:21

interesting one. Wouldn't it? Now James, you've been

7:23

getting out your napkin as

7:26

well, going back to Spotify.

7:28

I'm not quite sure what

7:28

that's supposed to mean, but

7:31

yes, I did some math or maths

7:31

depending where you live.

7:35

please add the S I got hassled

7:35

by Harry who listens to this

7:39

podcast and Harry said, no,

7:39

say maths, but anyway, I

7:44

did a little bit of, I did a

7:44

little bit of calculations.

7:48

If you look at the leaked

7:48

Spotify, You can work out.

7:52

So we know that the

7:52

average length of a podcast

7:54

is about 37 minutes. We know how many hours of

7:56

podcasts were played on Spotify.

7:58

So therefore we can work

7:58

out that there were 543

8:01

million podcast plays

8:01

in total on Spotify.

8:05

And Spotify is about 20% of the industry. So you can work out there.

8:09

If you include 11% of podcasts

8:09

being auto downloaded and

8:13

never listened to, you

8:13

can probably work out that

8:15

there are at least 3 billion

8:15

podcasts downloads per month.

8:19

And actually that figure

8:19

is probably too low

8:23

because that assumes that

8:23

everybody on Spotify.

8:27

Never bails out of a show

8:27

early or fast forwards it.

8:30

So let's assume that two

8:30

thirds of shows are listened

8:33

to right to the end, which

8:33

is data that I've seen in a

8:36

number of different studies. So maybe we have 4 billion

8:38

downloads per month in

8:42

terms of podcasting. I notice that Libsyn is

8:43

currently quoting 7.9

8:46

billion per quarter for their

8:46

network and their network is.

8:51

not necessarily

8:51

particularly large.

8:54

So maybe again, maybe

8:54

I'm underestimating it,

8:56

4 billion downloads a

8:56

month is not bad, I think.

8:59

Yeah,

8:59

no, it's very tasty

8:59

that number now, the number I

9:03

thought that was interesting

9:03

was the 37 minutes though.

9:05

and it goes back to again,

9:05

if you've got a streaming

9:08

measurement, you could actually

9:08

then put a different price

9:11

point on ads, anything before

9:11

20 minutes, anything in the

9:16

20 minutes to 37 minutes

9:16

and then anything after

9:18

this one. NPR was trying to do with rad a

9:19

couple of years ago was to have

9:22

a much more robust analytics

9:22

platform that allowed you to

9:26

know what ads were listened

9:26

to in a particular show.

9:31

And therefore to be

9:31

able to report that

9:33

back on a sample basis. And that could be a plan

9:35

for, how you pay rod had

9:40

perceived issues with privacy.

9:42

And that was the reason why

9:42

that didn't get anything.

9:45

But, maybe there's something

9:45

interesting, particularly around

9:49

what you can do with boosts

9:49

with, cryptocurrency, because

9:53

actually a cryptocurrency

9:53

payment for this show is being

9:57

made every single minute. So you could theoretically go

9:58

and have a look at the amount

10:02

of cryptocurrency payments

10:02

and work out some form of

10:06

audience numbers from that. But, I think it's a little

10:07

bit too early to be talking

10:10

about that quite yet.

10:12

Some have pointed out

10:12

to us that their favorite

10:14

Spotify produce podcasts

10:14

have disappeared from

10:17

their usual podcast feeds. Can you explain

10:19

that to me, James

10:21

Spotify has apparently

10:21

taken a few more shows away

10:25

from standard RSS feeds and

10:25

have made them exclusive.

10:30

I think what I have since

10:30

discovered is some of those

10:34

shows are actually they've

10:34

killed the RSS feed altogether.

10:38

So if you try searching for. You still might find that

10:40

podcast as a ghost in one, in

10:44

some of the is, but as soon as

10:44

you try listening to a show, you

10:47

find out that you can't anymore. Spotify have explained that

10:49

the reason why is that they

10:53

get better stats from exclusive

10:53

shows because they get the

10:56

streaming stats, not the

10:56

streaming universe comments

10:59

rather than the download stats. And so therefore they can use

11:01

that to make better shows.

11:04

I'm not so sure. Interesting to see them.

11:07

Adding a few more

11:07

exclusive shows.

11:09

One of those is serial

11:09

killers, which is one of my

11:12

favorite names for a podcast.

11:14

Cause it does what it says

11:14

on the tin serial killers.

11:16

I wonder what that's a podcast about. Oh, I know what that is.

11:18

A podcast about is about serial killers. Yeah.

11:21

It passes the Ron seal test it. Doesn't it just, no one

11:22

in America will understand

11:25

that. No. Or anywhere around the world

11:25

actually, but there you go.

11:29

Subscription Spotfire has

11:29

now turned on subscriptions

11:33

to elect all US-based anchor

11:33

podcasts, sell subscriptions.

11:37

What are they? Yeah.

11:39

So anyone with an

11:39

anchor show in the U S can

11:43

now put their podcast into,

11:43

a paid podcast, subscription

11:47

service, with Spotify. And that's all very exciting.

11:51

They've added new price tiers. You can now.

11:53

Ask for your listeners, email

11:53

addresses, which they can

11:57

share with you if they want to,

11:57

which is one of the criticisms,

12:00

obviously against apple. The other criticism

12:02

against apple is keeping 30% of the revenue.

12:06

Whereas Spotify is keeping

12:06

nothing of the revenue for

12:08

the first two years and then

12:08

5% of the revenue after that.

12:13

And I think that interestingly

12:13

coincides with a piece in the

12:16

verge where a number of podcasts

12:16

companies are criticizing apple

12:19

podcasts for their subscription

12:19

products so far, Spotify is

12:22

going to let everybody else. So even you, Mr.

12:25

Sathi sell subscriptions

12:25

on Spotify.

12:30

If you're an anchor podcaster,

12:30

probably in September, so

12:36

we'll be able to buy shows in

12:36

September as foreign types.

12:40

And it basically said, pretty

12:40

well soon after that, we'll

12:43

be able to sell them as well. So good news for people who wish

12:44

to sell their particular show.

12:50

Now do you have to pay

12:50

the, anything to become a

12:54

creator of subscriptions like

12:56

you do with

12:56

apple, you don't at all,

12:58

from what I understand. So it's just as simple as,

12:59

getting your stuff in there,

13:02

which might be interesting. I think it'll be interesting

13:04

to see what Spotify does here.

13:07

Interesting. Also to see what Spotify

13:07

does, if I was to.

13:12

Create an anchor podcast,

13:12

put one show in there, sell

13:16

a bunch of subscriptions and

13:16

then not do any other shows.

13:19

I'm not quite sure what recompense Spotify has, for that.

13:24

And I'm not quite sure what that

13:24

means for people that might get

13:27

a little bit upset about that. I think it's going to be

13:28

really interesting to watch.

13:30

It's a very different model

13:30

than the apple model of paying,

13:35

whatever it was, 20 bucks or 30

13:35

bucks to get into this service.

13:39

And then apple actually humanly

13:39

moderates, you and checks

13:43

that you're a good person. my suspicion is that

13:44

Spotify will work in a

13:46

slightly different way. So it'll be

13:47

interesting to watch. I did read somewhere today

13:49

and I'm not quite sure

13:51

where the figure came from. That only 100 anchor shows

13:53

so far have made themselves

13:59

available for paid subscription,

13:59

because it has been available

14:03

in beta for a couple of months. I'm not quite sure of the

14:05

veracity of that number,

14:07

but, again, I think that's

14:07

an interesting number to see.

14:10

And for the record. Over a thousand paid for

14:12

podcasts with apple podcasts

14:15

and over a thousand podcasts

14:15

surrounding value for value

14:19

with the podcast index. so that's where we are

14:20

and by the way, nearly 4

14:23

million podcasts out there. So it's still a

14:25

very small thing.

14:26

Okay. Last bit of, Spotfire news

14:27

before we move on, Spotify

14:30

has expanded its music

14:30

and talk shows to 15 more

14:33

countries, including Germany. The Philippines and Brazil,

14:35

the service also has a new

14:39

look, which is very nice. And there are a few examples

14:40

which mix music and talk.

14:44

You can look at, Brad Hills

14:44

take cover, and you can

14:48

look at our Tom Webster's

14:48

deep six, for example.

14:51

it's still a service though

14:51

that I find is one Dato.

14:55

It needs to move on. If it wants to

14:56

actually do what radio.

14:59

Presenters though. Yeah. And allowing you to mix

15:02

over the music. Yeah, I agree. And I think that part of

15:03

that is due to the music

15:05

licenses that Spotify have. Because if you allow somebody

15:07

to talk over the music, then

15:10

you're making a derivative

15:10

products, which, Spotify don't

15:13

necessarily have the rights

15:13

for both Brad Hills take cover,

15:16

which is a very good show. All about cover versions

15:18

and Tom Webster's deep sex.

15:21

which is a very good show

15:21

with six songs, which are

15:24

somehow related to each other.

15:27

Both of those are pod faded.

15:29

If you like both of those Tom

15:29

and Brad have given up on.

15:32

So what does that tell you?

15:34

partially it might tell you that they were just. Kicking the tires and trying

15:37

it out, but also partially

15:39

that may tell you that, it

15:39

wasn't necessarily something

15:43

that they were getting any

15:43

feedback from any data from and

15:46

didn't feel it was worthwhile. Continuing.

15:48

I can't really talk for either

15:48

Tom off or for Brad, but you

15:51

get that feeling that might

15:51

be happening, interesting

15:54

to see it being rolled out. There's, a nice, more

15:55

swish UI, which people

15:59

might have fun with. And, but I would agree.

16:01

Yeah. Think it's not quite

16:01

there yet as a product

16:04

now swiftly on this

16:04

week's James and whether

16:08

you meant to or not, you've

16:08

been writing a lot and

16:11

I've called it discovery. Now we've got seven different

16:13

forms of new discovery that

16:17

we're going to discuss now

16:17

in the next three hours.

16:20

And then next round I pull

16:20

up at coffee and settle

16:24

back. What's

16:24

number one, he

16:24

says moving swiftly.

16:27

number one, just fuck that. Feel.

16:30

Matt Deegan, a friend of the

16:30

chair again, he's been talking

16:33

about, there's too much material

16:33

around in terms of you probably

16:38

haven't got enough room to

16:38

really give Spotify promo value.

16:41

Yeah. To your acquisitions.

16:43

Basically, he's saying that the

16:43

issue with gambler and podcasts

16:46

and ringer and all the other

16:46

shows that have been created

16:49

Spotify, isn't allowing that

16:49

discovery of those new shows.

16:53

Maybe that's the reason

16:53

why Gimlet has only got

16:56

0.4% in the Spotify stats.

17:00

So the question is, should

17:00

Spotify create a new

17:03

separate podcast client

17:03

and make discovery easily?

17:06

Maybe we've talked about

17:06

this before, briefly as well.

17:09

Haven't we, James, they

17:10

have made us per

17:10

radio client for their

17:12

algorithmic jukeboxes, which

17:12

they trialed in Australia.

17:15

We got something first for a change. so that was nice.

17:18

I think the problem with Gimlet

17:18

isn't promo, I think the problem

17:23

with Gimlet is that Gimlet staff

17:23

appeals to public radio lists.

17:27

Slightly younger public

17:27

radio listeners who

17:29

are not using Spotify. And I think that,

17:31

that's the main issue.

17:34

It's the wrong audience

17:34

for the wrong product.

17:37

And I think either that means

17:37

that Gimlet needs to get younger

17:40

in its outlook and produce

17:40

more of the sorts of products

17:44

like, call her daddy and Joe.

17:47

Or it means that Gimlet

17:47

was just the wrong purchase

17:50

because it's just not a

17:50

well aligned audience.

17:53

I don't actually think it's

17:53

a promo issue at all here,

17:55

but I would also agree

17:55

that it is really hard.

17:59

If you've got 300 shows,

17:59

it's really hard to

18:02

promote all 300 at once.

18:04

It's like a radio station you

18:04

end up promoting the breakfast.

18:08

Because that's the thing

18:08

that you want to promote.

18:11

You've got your heroes

18:11

that you want to promote.

18:13

Nobody is promoting who

18:13

the evening show is.

18:16

He says as an evening show,

18:16

not for a year, nobody ever

18:20

promotes the evening show. They only promote the breakfast

18:22

show because that's where you

18:25

get the best bang for your buck. And maybe that's what Spotify

18:27

has an issue with right now.

18:30

ITunes probably went through this when they were trying to have music.

18:34

And then they were trying to have films. They were trying to have

18:36

other content and they then

18:38

tried to create one client. Then they separated them out.

18:41

I suspect Spotify is

18:41

going through that same

18:43

tension internally. Do they try and create

18:45

the Uber client one single

18:49

app or do they Spotify? Break it out into

18:50

two or three apps

18:52

and they're chucking audio books in as well. Of course, they've had audio

18:54

books in Germany for a while

18:57

and they're moving that out

18:57

to other platforms as well.

18:59

How's that going to fit

18:59

into the Spotify UI?

19:02

yeah, I agree. I think it's going to be harder

19:03

and harder for Spotify to

19:06

promote this kind of stuff.

19:07

Okay. Now a discovery too.

19:10

And this one. Pod chasers refresh their

19:11

creator profiles, and now

19:16

you can follow creators

19:16

across different shows.

19:19

and they've also changed

19:19

the roles to credit.

19:22

What do you think of that

19:23

one, James? Yeah. So they've stopped calling

19:24

everybody a creator and

19:27

they've started having

19:27

a list of credits, which

19:30

I think is a good idea. So if you have look at the

19:31

listing, for example, for pod

19:34

land at the pod news websites,

19:34

then you'll find it now says

19:37

credits and not creators. Cause I was using

19:39

their language. It's a data that has come

19:41

from the podcast taxonomy

19:45

as well, which is helpful

19:45

because it means that we all

19:48

know now what an editor is,

19:48

what a podcast host is, what

19:52

an executive producer is

19:52

and all that kind of stuff.

19:55

Now, jumping ahead

19:55

slightly, one of the

19:58

companies captivate. Has done something

20:00

very interesting for discovery as well.

20:03

It now sends the podcast

20:03

credits automatically to pod

20:06

chaser. Yes. So I'm an advisor to captivate.

20:09

I need to say that upfront, if

20:09

you are doing a podcast within

20:13

captivate and you're actually. Adding people to your

20:16

authorization list, so you

20:19

can have the host to using

20:19

captivate and the editor using

20:22

captivate and everything else. It uses that as credits, which

20:24

it then automatically sends

20:28

off to pod chaser as well. They're using the

20:29

podcast taxonomy too. again, a great plan

20:32

because it allows.

20:35

Anybody who is using a podcast

20:35

host and captivate in this

20:38

particular case to get those

20:38

credits, in, as a standard

20:42

fashion, into a pod chaser to,

20:42

what captivate has also done.

20:47

And I just mentioned it

20:47

there around podcast networks

20:49

is that they've added. Podcast networks

20:50

available to all users.

20:53

now, so if you want to run

20:53

your own podcast network and

20:56

you want full visibility of

20:56

how everybody's doing, and

21:00

you want team management and

21:00

you want a network website

21:03

and everything else, then

21:03

captivate is the place to be.

21:05

Because it's ma it's giving

21:05

that available to everybody.

21:09

if you're on the bottom tier

21:09

at captivate, I think you

21:11

can have a podcast network

21:11

of three or maybe four

21:14

shows and that goes up as

21:14

your, tier goes up as well.

21:19

I think it's a good thing, although I would say that would not,

21:21

I've also done one other thing, which is they've introduced cross-promotional

21:25

feed drops. Oh yes. Which mark is very

21:26

proud of that. and that's very clever because

21:29

it's enabling you to, put a

21:33

drop throughout your entire

21:33

network of a new show that

21:37

perhaps you're launching

21:37

and that sort of thing.

21:39

you've probably heard

21:39

that through Wondery and

21:41

other large companies. Now you can do that

21:42

with captivate as well.

21:45

And I know that they are working

21:45

on analytics around that too.

21:49

So you can actually see how

21:49

well that is going for you.

21:53

So there's some really

21:53

interesting stuff going on

21:56

there, and I'm a, it's a

21:56

company which I'm proud to

21:59

occasionally take part in

21:59

and advisor meetings for.

22:03

And it's, it is a very

22:03

occasionally no, but you

22:05

can really see that's a

22:05

company which understands

22:08

what podcast is want. That

22:10

was another form of discovery. And I think as we'll hear

22:12

from me, Terra shortly,

22:15

one of the things is he's

22:15

looking for all the apps to

22:18

start to add more features. One of the features I'd love is

22:20

what captivates done is for all

22:23

the other podcasts companies to

22:23

push their credits up into pod

22:28

chaser, just making it a simpler

22:28

way that we can all be, then

22:31

be discovered across multiple

22:31

other podcasts that we do.

22:34

That'd

22:35

be nice. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. What I would like to see is

22:37

that the podcast person tag,

22:41

which is how you put credits

22:41

into the RSS feed, I would like

22:45

to see that being implemented

22:45

by these podcast hosts as well.

22:49

because I'm sure that

22:49

pod chaser a lovely.

22:51

But, one com one company,

22:51

one point of failure

22:55

is a concern to me. So if there's a way of pulling

22:57

that credit's information

23:00

out of the RSS feed as well,

23:00

then I think that's probably

23:04

where we should be going. And again, that's podcast

23:05

taxonomy compatible, and so

23:09

it's well worth having a look.

23:11

Okay. Another discovery that

23:12

you wrote about or is

23:15

entail is also added away. To follow people, as well as

23:17

films and TV shows discuss

23:20

within a podcast it's driven by

23:20

their proprietary AI technology.

23:25

So Hannah Blake wrote about this. She said, we've released

23:26

another feature. That's transforming

23:28

podcast discovery. You can follow people,

23:31

films and TVs, as I just

23:33

said, within the podcast. And then you'll be

23:34

notified whenever they

23:37

feature in new episodes.

23:39

So again, nice. If you can list people or that

23:40

you want to know more about

23:44

and you discover what else.

23:45

The difference here is

23:45

the entail is using its own

23:47

AI technology, which of course

23:47

means that you can then follow

23:53

any mention of that person

23:53

or that thing in any podcast,

23:58

which is listed in entail. So it doesn't have to rely

24:00

on an individual human being

24:03

to put that information in. And that's particularly useful

24:05

for, obviously films and

24:08

TV shows, but also frankly,

24:08

for brands who would really

24:12

like to know what people are

24:12

saying about them on podcast.

24:15

Now, continuing the

24:15

theme of discovery, which I

24:18

am, Buzzsprout our sponsors

24:18

and our good friends.

24:21

they have basically

24:21

taken on board.

24:25

I think we discussed

24:25

this many months ago.

24:27

Actually. You mentioned it being able to

24:28

put a specific timestamp in a

24:31

podcast episode and share it. That's

24:34

great, isn't it? Yeah. I think that's

24:35

really good album. Brooke gave a demonstration

24:36

of this on the bus sprout

24:39

blog, which you should

24:39

all go and have a look at.

24:41

And he chose this very podcast,

24:41

which was quite a thing.

24:45

So thank you album. That's very kind of you and

24:46

yes, what they've done with

24:49

it is that they've used

24:49

the standard T equals at

24:53

the end of the URL, which

24:53

YouTube uses Spotify use it.

24:56

Okay. Casts and pod friend also uses.

24:59

And that also works on

24:59

overcast, even though overcast

25:02

has a preferred way that

25:02

they want you to do it.

25:04

Google podcasts of

25:04

course works differently.

25:07

And of course, apple podcasts. Doesn't let you do that at all.

25:10

as is usually the way, but,

25:10

being able to share a specific

25:15

timestamp and being able to

25:15

say, go and listen to that.

25:18

From here is a

25:18

really helpful thing.

25:21

And I'm sure that will

25:21

be a useful plan for the

25:23

future to actually share

25:23

stuff on social media.

25:26

Sam, should we talk,

25:26

goods and tech?

25:28

No, I think we should talk

25:29

Evo. Terra let's talk Evo Terra.

25:32

You're absolutely correct. Evo wrote a really good

25:33

blog post the other

25:37

day and also a podcast.

25:39

He has a great podcast. Podcast pontifications and it

25:40

was all about what he wants

25:44

to see from a podcast app.

25:47

So I caught up with Evo

25:47

and firstly, I asked him

25:50

who Evo Terra is and what

25:50

his podcast pontifications

25:54

Evo. Terra is a guy who has been

25:55

podcasting for a very long time.

25:58

Since the beginning of

25:58

time, actually since 2004.

26:02

Since 2016, I focused

26:02

my attention on making a

26:05

podcast for others where businesses specific, basically my mission in life.

26:09

Now, here we are in 2021,

26:09

recording this as you know

26:12

is to make podcasting better.

26:15

And that's where the whole impetus behind podcast. Pontifications a daily

26:17

short form podcast

26:20

where I talk about ways. Working podcasters can make

26:23

podcasting better. That's great. It gives you something to

26:25

think about when working on a podcast and you spoke about

26:27

podcast apps the other day, you

26:31

reckon that there's a problem

26:31

with some of the big apps.

26:33

I reckon there's a problem with every app. I haven't been happy with

26:35

podcast apps for a very.

26:40

Long time. And I think it's finally

26:41

time that we collectively

26:45

do something about it and

26:45

regime change begins with me.

26:49

So I'm on a mission to

26:49

try and find, or at least

26:52

make podcast apps better

26:54

as well. I miss the simple days

26:54

of iPod personally,

26:58

I Potter X. Yeah. Race like Kinski and a few

27:01

others. Yeah. Yeah. I Potter X. I apologize.

27:03

Yes. I forgot the expert. You're recommending that people

27:05

go and try some new apps.

27:10

So why are you saying that?

27:12

Look, the choices

27:12

from podcast apps have been

27:14

stagnant for a long time.

27:17

And we have the big ones

27:17

that people tend to use.

27:19

Like most people like to use

27:19

for their iPhones, at least

27:22

the apple podcast app, because

27:22

there's default it's, what's on

27:25

your phone for the last three

27:25

years, Spotify has been doing

27:28

everything they can to get us to

27:28

migrate to the Spotify system.

27:32

And now we have Amazon out

27:32

there and then we have a slew

27:35

of podcast apps that have been

27:35

around since the beginning.

27:37

not necessarily the beginning, but have become staples podcast ads.

27:41

Overcast and a slew of others.

27:43

And they all do the basic

27:43

job of giving you access to

27:48

podcasts roughly the same. But then they stopped

27:51

doing that and they each

27:55

have their own different

27:55

things that they do well.

27:57

And some of them do better

27:57

than others, but there are

28:00

some missing pieces I think,

28:00

in, in what these apps should

28:04

be doing for podcasters. And it's when I found

28:05

James is really hard.

28:09

To get podcast app

28:09

developers to actually.

28:12

Use their app and get into

28:12

it and really understand

28:17

how it is that podcasters

28:17

and podcasts listeners

28:20

want to consume content.

28:22

That's interesting. you say you've got a list

28:22

of must haves for podcasts,

28:25

listening apps that none of

28:25

them are doing right now.

28:28

None of them

28:29

wow. Doing all four of them.

28:31

So I have things that I

28:31

want podcast apps to do,

28:36

and some of them do some

28:36

of them, but none of them.

28:40

All of them, shall I run through

28:40

my list of four to why not?

28:44

number one, I want to be able

28:44

to create show level cues or

28:50

lists or groupings or stations,

28:50

whatever you want to call them.

28:54

Now, the reality is a lot of

28:54

the podcast apps out there

28:58

do that, but when looking at

28:58

the new podcasts, The ones

29:03

that are being pimped out

29:03

by the podcasting 2.0 folks

29:06

that are enabling value for value and lots of other fun things, you'd be amazed.

29:09

How many of them don't

29:09

allow that to happen?

29:12

They'll let you queue up

29:12

individual episodes, but they

29:15

will not let you break down

29:15

the podcast you subscribed to

29:18

and group them into individual

29:18

queues so that if you're

29:21

in the mood to listen to

29:21

long form audio dramas, you

29:24

don't have to be interrupted

29:24

by somebody every day.

29:27

Putting out around three

29:27

minutes worth of really

29:29

cool podcast tech. for example.

29:33

So that's number one. Yeah.

29:35

Number two. Let's talk about those cues.

29:37

I would like for one very

29:37

specific cue to be developed

29:41

and that very specific cue

29:41

is I'm calling most recent.

29:46

If you will. And here's why I want that.

29:48

James, you and I

29:48

produced daily podcasts.

29:52

The number of daily podcasts

29:52

out there has skyrocketed

29:55

in the last few years. Now, I don't know about you,

29:57

but if I go on vacation for

30:00

a few days and I don't pick

30:00

up my daily newspaper and I'm

30:03

gone for a week, I don't go

30:03

back and read the episodes.

30:07

Starting from the day I

30:07

was gone and get caught.

30:10

There's no point in doing that. It's news it's information.

30:12

That's no longer relevant to me. So I want to most recent, only

30:14

queue that has just that I

30:19

get to decide which podcasts

30:19

which shows go into that queue.

30:23

And then the only thing

30:23

that shows up in there is

30:25

the most recent episode of

30:25

all of those, rather than

30:29

having 16 episodes of. For example, a daily podcast

30:31

news story queued up for

30:35

me when I get back from it. And I

30:37

hear some people

30:37

do binge on pod news.

30:41

How can you possibly do that? Then this drive,

30:43

you mad I'm with

30:44

you as well. the nice thing is I just want

30:45

that to be a cue they're there.

30:48

All the episodes are

30:48

still available, right?

30:50

it's not like we're

30:50

removing them and we can't

30:52

access them any longer. I just want this one simple

30:53

little cue to say here's

30:57

where you can get caught up on the most recent. That you specifically

30:59

added to this queue?

31:02

That will be great.

31:02

So that's Evo second commandment. What's your third.

31:05

I want podcast apps to

31:05

respect RSS feeds that are

31:09

serial IIS podcasts that

31:09

are designed to be listened

31:13

to from the beginning,

31:13

not the most recent.

31:17

you didn't read Michelle Obama's

31:17

last book from the last chapter.

31:21

You didn't start on that last

31:21

chapter and you certainly

31:24

didn't watch the 10th

31:24

episode of Ted lasso before

31:27

you watched the episodes

31:27

one through nine, right?

31:29

It makes no sense to do it that way. Every reasonable person

31:31

accessing a serialized

31:34

podcast wants to listen to

31:34

the first episode first.

31:38

So why not podcast apps

31:38

present that to people?

31:41

I did a little research on

31:41

this, James right now, there

31:44

are about 42 thousands. Podcasts that are tagged as

31:46

cereal and in most podcasts

31:52

listening apps and in almost

31:52

all of the, if you will, not

31:56

the big ones and all of the new

31:56

podcast apps, none of them are

32:00

flipping the feeds and showing

32:00

it from the first one first,

32:03

weirdly enough, apple, Spotify,

32:03

and Amazon actually do this.

32:07

It's just hard to find the settings,

32:09

Come on with number four,

32:10

I have beat this horse

32:10

for a long time and I'm going

32:12

to keep on beating it as well. Thanks to the amazing work of

32:14

the people at podcast index.

32:17

We now have a transcript

32:17

tag which goes in our feeds.

32:22

Wouldn't it be great. If that transcript, which is

32:23

SRT and timestamp to nicely put

32:28

right there on the player, on

32:28

the phone or on the web app,

32:31

the actual transcript, as the

32:31

words are being spoken, all of

32:35

the info is there timestamps,

32:35

text, everything, just display

32:40

it the same way it works on

32:40

YouTube, close captions, or even

32:44

those are no television shows. We are ready in

32:47

our podcast apps.

32:49

So that's it just those four

32:49

things and I'll switch to your

32:52

app and I'll evangelize it to

32:53

the end of time. And this is one of the things

32:54

that I keep on talking to

32:56

the folks at Google podcasts

32:56

about they already have the

32:59

technology to add, not just

32:59

take the podcast transcripts,

33:03

tag from somebody's podcast,

33:03

but also add transcripts.

33:07

Everyone's podcast, it's

33:07

built into Android phones and

33:11

I'm there going, why don't

33:11

you build this into your

33:14

app specifically so that you

33:14

can go out and say, it's the

33:18

only app with transcripts for

33:18

every single show out there.

33:22

And they they look at

33:22

me and they go, yep.

33:25

It's really

33:25

frustrating. It's almost like you need

33:26

to say Google podcasts.

33:28

There's this other app called YouTube. Maybe you've heard of it.

33:32

It actually will do that.

33:34

That very same thing. I'm talking about. YouTube can with a click

33:36

of a button automatically

33:38

and transcripts to every single video. So I think that alphabet, the

33:40

parent company has a technology.

33:44

Can you share

33:45

that seems okay. To me that I get frustrated at

33:46

with podcast apps is I look at

33:50

some of the individual apps.

33:52

Yeah. There's a lot of work put into

33:53

some of the UI, but the actual

33:57

player has no work put into it.

34:00

And one of the things that

34:00

I like about PocketCasts and

34:04

frankly like about Google

34:04

podcasts is the smart speed.

34:09

So it gets rid of the

34:09

gaps and stuff like that.

34:11

It's not called Smartspeed cause that's an overcast registered trademark.

34:15

yup. And what a pocket cast also

34:15

has is something that it

34:18

doesn't call voice boost. Cause that's another

34:20

one of Marco's. but it's something that makes

34:21

everything a little bit louder.

34:24

There are some shows out there,

34:24

not this one, I hope, but there

34:26

are some shows out there where

34:26

you're interviewing somebody

34:29

or somebody at the other end

34:29

of a phone line somewhere.

34:32

And the other person is really. And the interviewer is

34:34

really loud and it's really

34:36

hard to listen to it. It surprises me that things

34:38

like Smartspeed that voice

34:41

boost or whatever, the generic

34:41

terms for both of those things.

34:45

Haven't been productized

34:45

into a bunch of, Android or

34:50

iOS, player, SDKs quite yet.

34:53

I'm

34:53

with you on both of those things, I think some responsibility lies

34:54

on the host themselves.

34:58

Who've Evers assembling

34:58

this show produced show.

35:01

But I also think, especially

35:01

for the idea of, let's just

35:04

call it, normalizing the volume

35:04

and getting everything to

35:07

a nice 16 minus 16 lumps or

35:07

whatever standard we're using.

35:10

I like minus 16 laps. And I think a lot of

35:12

that could be happening on the hosting side.

35:14

Yes. If in fact we were

35:15

uploading wave files, which.

35:18

Podcast hosting

35:18

companies aren't 19.

35:21

And come to mind. We'll allow you to upload a

35:22

wave file and we'll whoosh.

35:25

I know for a fact automatically

35:25

normalize the tracks.

35:28

If you click a little box to

35:28

do that and get it all nice and

35:31

sunny, it'll send out MP3 files.

35:33

And then I know other

35:33

alternate enclosures as well

35:35

for much smaller things. So a lot of that can

35:37

be happening during the time of creation, but

35:38

I am totally with you.

35:41

I use overcast more than

35:41

anything else for that

35:44

voice boost feature, because

35:44

when I'm driving in my car,

35:48

There is road noise and

35:48

road noise, significantly

35:51

interferes with podcasters. Who've decided to let some

35:53

dynamic range creativity

35:57

run free on their episodes. And which basically means I

35:59

can't hear the dialogue, which

36:01

I think is important to do

36:01

so I do love that feature.

36:03

And yes. For must haves.

36:05

I think there are some

36:05

table stakes that everyone

36:08

should do just because

36:08

it's the right thing to do.

36:11

Getting voices normalized,

36:11

allowing people to adjust

36:14

the speeds back and forth. Yes. All of these things are certain

36:16

necessary to do, to make a real

36:19

podcast app worthy of promoting. In

36:21

20, 21, or we have a

36:21

fine sponsor of Buzzsprout,

36:24

Buzzsprout have a service called

36:24

magic mastering, which does

36:27

much the same sort of thing. You can upload away a fight if

36:28

you like to buy a sprout and it

36:31

will remaster that and sort out

36:31

the dynamics for you and make

36:34

that into a lovely MP3 file.

36:36

If that's what you want. What have you tried so far then?

36:40

Eva, what's the one that you're using the most. It sounds as if it's overcast,

36:42

but that's not got all

36:44

of the features in there. What else have you found?

36:46

That's good.

36:47

So I've been, I spent

36:47

most of last weekend playing

36:49

around with three new. Podcast apps from new podcast

36:51

apps.com to plug that little

36:55

free service, which details

36:55

out the new podcast apps

36:58

boost button. Now yes. Hit the boost.

37:00

Yes. so fountain and pod verse and

37:01

pod friend are the three that

37:07

I'm playing with most right now.

37:10

And I've spoken with the

37:10

developers in all of those

37:14

and they all love what I have

37:14

to say, but they also say.

37:18

We are working either

37:18

on a shoestring budget

37:22

or we're or no, or a

37:22

virtual shoestring budget.

37:24

We are, we're totally out of shoestrings. or it's, we've got

37:26

a laundry list. That's a mile long as

37:28

we're trying to get to. So it's a nice to

37:30

have just be happy.

37:32

We're making what we're

37:32

doing right now and I get

37:35

it and I am happy with what they're doing right now. I just want to encourage

37:37

them to do more.

37:39

Yeah. And I wonder whether there is something there. Maybe taking, an open source

37:41

app and getting a little bit

37:45

of resource into it to actually

37:45

make the podcast as podcast app.

37:49

Maybe that's a plan for the future. Although, maybe that's about it.

37:52

Who

37:52

knows what they could

37:52

do rather than trying to play

37:55

the let's do everything game. I think another great angle

37:56

would be let's focus on

37:59

a particular underserved. Portion of the

38:01

listening audience. who's not getting what they

38:03

need out of the current

38:06

podcast, listening apps. I think it's not a crazy idea

38:07

to think someone will come

38:09

along and build a podcast

38:09

listening app that doesn't

38:12

have 4 million podcasts in

38:12

it, but is only designed

38:16

to, for example, listen to.

38:19

Sports-related podcasts, but

38:19

maybe there's a special way.

38:22

Sports podcasts, listeners want

38:22

to consume their content grouped

38:26

by teams or sporting types or

38:26

various weird things like that.

38:30

W I think we're to the

38:30

size now where rather than

38:33

trying to get everyone,

38:33

everybody together, maybe

38:36

we just make hyper-focused. These are the things

38:37

that this does, and if you really want the best

38:39

possible experience in this.

38:42

What we've built. We've got an app that does just

38:45

that podcast. Pontifications is in all

38:46

good podcasting apps and

38:49

quite a few bad ones, too. Evo. Thank you so much for your time.

38:52

Thank you very much for your time, James. And don't forget

38:53

that, that boost

38:55

button . I have to

38:55

say those for a wishlist,

38:59

is what he's asking. Very useful.

39:02

what, the most recent

39:02

transcripts individual cues,

39:05

I mean that, they're all

39:05

things that, that we want.

39:08

And it, what it got me thinking

39:08

about is, again, with all

39:12

the other features that we've

39:12

just discussed as well, with

39:14

captivate, pushing to pod

39:14

chaser with entail, doing

39:18

discovery is that we're in a.

39:22

I want to call it a podcast

39:22

wars because before I explain

39:26

that somebody this week,

39:26

and I know we're coming to

39:28

boost the Graham quarter, but

39:28

he, whoever you are, mark,

39:31

please reveal your surname. Come hoping you're

39:33

not mark Cuban. You said something

39:35

that absolutely the

39:37

penny dropped for me. You described apple

39:39

podcasts as the new internet

39:42

Explorer of podcast players. And it, the minute

39:44

you said that I do.

39:47

Yep. That is exactly what they are. I was with Netscape

39:50

during the podcast wars.

39:52

I was the European product

39:52

manager for communicator.

39:55

What we were fighting, what

39:55

were for new standards?

39:58

We were fighting for

39:58

new versions of HTML.

40:00

We were fighting to push

40:00

the browser forward and

40:04

Microsoft with IAE where

40:04

the dominant incumbent, who

40:07

just drag their knuckles

40:07

didn't do anything, came up

40:10

with predatory standards. Do you remember active ex

40:13

James? Oh yes. Active

40:15

ex. Yeah. And they had so many, any

40:16

ways that they try to kill

40:20

the industry or turn it into

40:20

an internal wall garden.

40:24

Apple, I'm sorry. You are the new

40:25

internet Explorer.

40:28

And I think. I think that's the title

40:30

they need to take in.

40:32

I try to make friends

40:32

with apple, but they never

40:35

get to sponsor as James is to the way he both,

40:37

they're never going to sponsor anything. that's not how it work.

40:40

Yeah, exactly. But I think what the funniest

40:41

thing for me is somebody

40:44

who was really heavily

40:44

involved in that timeframe.

40:47

Microsoft now use chromium as

40:47

the basis for their browser.

40:53

Yeah. Yeah. They've gone full circle.

40:56

Yeah. And I hope that maybe apple,

40:56

one day we'll actually start

41:00

to look at the podcast index

41:00

tutor, own namespace and

41:03

start to say, yeah, actually. The industry's

41:05

working around that.

41:07

And maybe we need to adopt it. I dunno where Spotify fits

41:09

in all this, by the way.

41:12

Cause I can't come up with a

41:12

good analogy to what browser

41:15

they would have been, but

41:15

they're certainly not Netscape

41:17

that's for certain yeah. Cello. Yes.

41:20

I think there you go. that's showing my age. Yeah, no, I agree.

41:24

I think that the podcast names.

41:28

Is something that people

41:28

should be particularly apple

41:32

and Google should be looking

41:32

into very seriously, because

41:36

I think there's a bunch of

41:36

very useful things for Apple's

41:41

current issues with not

41:41

updating shows properly and

41:44

all of that kind of stuff. There's a bunch of useful

41:46

tools that can be built in

41:49

to help all of that work. So I'm surprised that

41:50

they haven't been doing,

41:53

more looking into that.

41:55

Going back to evoke terror. So what he's saying is that

41:56

lots of smaller apps are

42:00

beginning to put tools like

42:00

chapters, and as we've seen,

42:04

credits and people support. Is there going to be one of

42:06

those that steps forward you

42:10

think, is there a potential

42:10

winner out of that's coming

42:12

out or is it too early

42:12

to see as an alternative

42:15

client? Oh, I think it's very difficult

42:16

to see and I, my hope and

42:20

my hope has always been

42:20

that PocketCasts or someone

42:23

similar overcast, maybe,

42:23

although that won't happen.

42:27

Grabs the opportunities

42:27

given to them by the new

42:31

podcast, namespace with

42:31

both hands and goes away and

42:35

makes the best podcast app

42:35

that deals with all of the

42:39

new podcast namespace tags.

42:42

To me, that would be the

42:42

differentiator between pocket

42:45

casts and the incumbent. The Google, the

42:47

Spotify and the apple. And I think that would be

42:50

the absolute right choice

42:53

for Russell and for, Phil,

42:53

I think it is to end up

42:57

doing, obviously I'm not the

42:57

product manager and by all

43:02

accounts, it's not been a fun

43:02

18 months at the pocket costs.

43:06

folks, I'm sure that they've

43:06

got a bunch of tech debt

43:08

that they need to fix first. but that would be my ideal.

43:12

Now, the other

43:13

thing that came out of, listening to. Was, he was just something

43:15

that he was saying

43:18

all the way through. And you said something as well

43:18

about boost grams as well.

43:22

You Chub's client actually

43:22

is really where I think

43:25

a lot of podcast clients

43:25

might want to have a look

43:29

at the timestamp things now,

43:29

just beginning to come in.

43:32

So if you take bus sprout, cause we. We use that a lot.

43:36

So fundamentally that timestamp

43:36

thing, which has been in YouTube

43:40

forever and a day, the sharing

43:40

capability, but they've got

43:43

comments, but the one that it's

43:43

most interesting in YouTube,

43:47

if you follow any of the, I

43:47

know football ones that I do,

43:50

you've got this thing called

43:50

super follows and which I think

43:53

are really interesting and

43:53

very similar to boost to grams.

43:57

But they're done more

43:57

often with live streams

43:59

where you can actually

43:59

pay $5, $10 or whatever,

44:02

and it is cash amounts. but then the host will see

44:04

that and it'll highlight up in

44:07

the comments very differently. And then they can

44:09

read that comment out.

44:11

They ignore the rest of the comments by the way. So the stream could be flying

44:13

through and they'll only

44:16

look at the super follows. I wonder where the, in a real

44:18

world environment where you

44:23

let's say we did this podcast

44:23

live via a client where the

44:27

Brewster grams would be that as

44:29

well. Yeah. I don't think there's anything

44:29

to stop booster grams.

44:32

the way that the whole thing

44:32

has been built, there's

44:34

nothing necessarily to stop

44:34

them from using fierce,

44:37

from using real currency. but.

44:39

I'm also very aware that

44:39

actually the benefit of using

44:43

the cryptocurrency stuff

44:43

is that it means that it's

44:46

completely de-centralized

44:46

and no one is in charge.

44:49

And we've just seen all of

44:49

that kerfuffle with only fans

44:54

that is kerfuffle, which has

44:54

been driven by MasterCard who

44:59

have turned around and said,

44:59

we don't want people paying

45:02

for smart, with MasterCard.

45:05

Thank you very much. Could you please stop the smart.

45:08

I think, that,

45:08

that's the concern.

45:10

I think I put quite apart from

45:10

the individual cost of, taking

45:14

a credit card payment, that's

45:14

the main concern that many

45:19

people in podcasting should

45:19

have of, just making sure

45:22

that this is a open thing,

45:22

but I do wonder sometimes.

45:26

I've started talking with a

45:26

few people about, booster grams

45:29

being internet tokens, and

45:29

you buy internet tokens and

45:34

you give them to other people. And that's really what a sat is.

45:38

Yes. You can turn it into cash. Yes. It's actually a Bitcoin.

45:40

Yes, it's cryptocurrency. But at the end of the day,

45:42

it's an internet token. It's the same as a

45:44

fairground token. When you go into the, when

45:46

you go to the fair or,

45:48

any of that sort of thing. And I think if we think about

45:50

it in that way, it becomes

45:52

far less scary and some people

45:52

may choose to cash them in.

45:56

Some people may just choose to hold them. And that's fine too.

45:59

Yeah. It's a

45:59

micro payment system. We've wanted for a

46:01

while on the internet. In fact, yeah.

46:04

I remember listening

46:04

to Marc Andreessen.

46:06

Talk about the one thing he

46:06

wished he did creative when he

46:09

first created Netscape browser

46:09

was a micropayment system.

46:13

You said that was the one

46:13

thing they wished they'd done.

46:15

And I know Facebook tried

46:15

recently and failed abysmally

46:18

with their micropayment

46:18

systems, cause no one

46:20

trusts mark Zuckerberg. and that's why I think

46:22

a lot of that failed. But it's the, I think the

46:24

problem is it simple enough?

46:27

You've implemented it. How easy is it to

46:29

implement hideously

46:29

complicated at the moment,

46:33

but it is much easier now

46:33

than it was three months ago.

46:37

And that's the point? I think it's very quickly

46:38

beginning to be easier.

46:42

this isn't iPod X, as

46:42

we were talking about

46:45

with Eva, it's not. I was, trying to tell somebody

46:47

the other day about, it

46:51

was listening from Norway

46:51

and he wants to help this

46:55

show and her downloaded

46:55

fountain and found the whole

46:58

thing really complicated. And I said, you're

47:00

probably not young enough.

47:02

To have been playing around with

47:02

your copy of windows 3.1 and

47:07

try to configure your wind sock.

47:10

but you'll remember configuring

47:10

wind sock and everything else

47:13

so that you could actually

47:13

get onto the internet, and

47:15

all these kinds of weird

47:15

and wonderful stuff and how

47:18

complicated all of that was. And now it's super easy and

47:19

it's built into everything.

47:22

I think that's basically

47:22

where we are at the moment.

47:25

And I think. Anything that makes

47:26

life easier and simpler.

47:29

We'll come and we'll

47:29

come very quickly.

47:31

And certainly it's far easier. Now then, as I say, than it

47:33

was three months or so ago

47:37

to set up value for value

47:37

and to start accepting Sam.

47:41

So

47:42

talking of, value for value. Have we had any

47:45

boosts this week? yes, let's play.

47:48

Adam's very exciting. Very top 40 booster

47:49

Graham corner jingle.

47:52

Now it's

47:52

time for the

47:53

boost

47:54

to Graham corner.

47:56

It's too much. And we've got a number of

47:57

different messages here.

48:00

Mary Oscar from

48:00

fountain 769 SATs.

48:03

It says here, although that

48:03

might not be what Mary Oscar

48:05

thought he was paying, because

48:05

of the way that these things

48:08

work, I should just point out. But anyway, Mary says, or

48:10

Oscar says another great

48:13

episode looking forward to

48:13

coming on in a few weeks time.

48:16

Oh yes. Oscar's coming on in a few weeks time. Isn't it? A fountain.

48:19

So that should be good. He is excellent. Dave Jackson, the

48:21

podcast has podcaster.

48:24

he, very kindly sent us a 500

48:24

SATs or so with a fountain.

48:29

He says, keep up the great work. Thank you.

48:31

Dave. Dave has put together a brand

48:31

new podcast called leading the

48:35

bleeding, which is essentially

48:35

Dave, trying to understand

48:38

how all of this stuff works. And, working to enable his

48:40

podcasts as value for value.

48:45

He's going to turn that

48:45

whole experience into a

48:47

podcast, which is really good.

48:49

And, it should be well

48:49

worth having a listen to,

48:52

that is available now in

48:52

all good podcast apps.

48:54

And in Spotify,

48:55

Nick says he

48:55

loves pod land.

48:57

Thank you, Nick. Add he sent us 990 stats.

49:00

I knew he was using fountain. I think that may be

49:02

fountains. Yeah. Ah, maybe who

49:05

knows. and Dave said, thanks

49:05

for the kind words SAB.

49:08

You're the host of the football podcast. You can't let an Australian

49:10

guy with a raspberry PI school,

49:13

your base styles, yellow card.

49:16

Thank you, Dave.

49:18

Thank you so much. He said just 20,903 stats.

49:21

And again, using fountain. Yeah.

49:23

20,000 SaaS

49:23

is a lot as well.

49:25

Dave, thank you very much for that. That's a very kind that's that?

49:28

That is probably. Another beer that

49:29

I can school Mr.

49:33

Sethi on when I can finally

49:33

get over to the UK in 2025.

49:37

Assuming of course that you

49:37

actually have any pubs left or

49:39

indeed any food available in

49:39

your country, which appears to

49:42

be falling apart as we speak.

49:45

Yeah.

49:45

Anyway. Yeah, we might end up

49:46

just having to grow what

49:48

we can find in fields. So yes, that's it.

49:52

it's quite a thing. And Adam.

49:55

I it has, I think, sent

49:55

you a message here.

49:57

4,900 sites through Curio Casta.

50:00

Thank you, Adam. What does Adam said here?

50:02

Thank you for

50:02

considering the podcast

50:05

index with your academy fees. Yes, I would.

50:08

I'd rather pay you Adam,

50:08

that I would pay the academy.

50:11

I'm sorry. I think he's not looking for a

50:12

promise if I'd rather pay you.

50:15

I think he's looking for some money. Maybe we might.

50:18

Okay. Maybe we might send them over.

50:21

So yeah, they're great. You know what they are

50:22

great because it does

50:25

what you just said, James. It just allows us to know that

50:26

people are listening and what

50:29

they think of what we say.

50:30

Indeed. No, I think it's a

50:31

really good thing. And I think the easier that

50:32

we can make it, the more

50:35

satisfactory it will be for

50:35

anybody that is doing a podcast.

50:39

Yeah. And I fully agree

50:39

with your comment. I think it will be, hidden into

50:41

apps and made very simple way.

50:45

You take fear currency converted to. Token SATs.

50:49

And then you can just use them where you want your data. It'll be a good model.

50:53

Lastly, Buzzsprout

50:53

going back to them.

50:56

boss sprout has now

50:56

included the podcast guru

50:59

ID into the RSS feeds what

50:59

a Gilead's again, just

51:02

remind me, ah, this

51:02

is a, it's a standard way

51:05

of an ID for your podcast.

51:07

It stays with your podcast. Whatever you use.

51:10

So if you shift from, and

51:10

they've seen to, and then maybe

51:14

you shift to captivate and then

51:14

sprout, obviously, cause bus

51:17

parrots are brilliant and then

51:17

you're good will never change.

51:20

And that means that you can

51:20

link to your podcast in a

51:23

standard way, which means

51:23

that no one is in charge

51:26

of that ID at the moment. We're all using apple

51:28

ID numbers and those are

51:31

not particularly helpful. it's a great thing to see.

51:34

Buzzsprout. Are now doing Google ads,

51:35

fully in their system.

51:38

And I look forward to

51:38

more podcasts companies

51:41

doing that too. I wonder if apple

51:42

Explorer will

51:42

ever change now, apple

51:45

Explorer. Ouch.

51:48

Oh, I sell you. Mark has given me so much hope

51:49

with his little statement.

51:53

Aye. Aye. On the basis that I

51:54

deleted by apple podcast,

51:57

player, client, wow. It's gone. Gosh.

52:00

Yeah, that's a thing I'm going to use

52:01

it until next

52:01

week when I have to.

52:03

Cause there's a feature,

52:03

I'll leave test it, but

52:05

then that'll be that now,

52:05

lastly, and it feels like

52:09

we are beating them up, but

52:09

apple podcast download bug.

52:12

it, again, it seems to

52:12

be raising its head.

52:16

Is there anything else that's

52:16

been said about, I think Triton

52:18

digital had some data about it. Triton,

52:20

it's been basically saying with all of the podcasts rankers that they

52:22

produce, is there's been

52:25

a significant drop in the

52:25

amount of podcasts downloads

52:28

if you compare may to July.

52:31

so in the middle of June was

52:31

where, people were transitioning

52:34

over to the new apple podcasts. And if you compare may to

52:36

July, it's down on average by,

52:40

somewhere in the region of. A percent or so, which, backs

52:41

up the random number that

52:44

I came up with earlier on. So yeah, you can see that's

52:46

happening, but you can also

52:49

see pod tracker releasing,

52:49

weekly figures, which I don't

52:52

typically report on because

52:52

otherwise that's the only thing

52:55

that I would be doing, but

52:55

they are showing that those

52:57

are beginning to increase it. As the fix has, has rolled out.

53:02

good on apple for fixing

53:02

that and for rolling it out.

53:05

I'm sure, there are lots of

53:05

things that we can criticize

53:08

them for, but I think, they

53:08

did act, relatively fast once

53:11

they knew that there was a. Okay. A few things coming up,

53:13

which might be useful to know

53:16

about the Australian podcast

53:16

awards is back for 2021.

53:20

I'm a director of the company this year. It features a total

53:21

of 31 award entries.

53:25

You should take part it's

53:25

really robustly, judged.

53:29

Proud of it. well-worth going to, take a

53:29

peek just to a Google search

53:33

for Australian podcast awards. There's also the New

53:35

Zealand podcast awards. If you're a Kiwi and you say

53:37

the word dairy a lot, the

53:40

deadline for nominations for

53:40

that is September the first.

53:43

So get a move on and the IAB

53:43

has announced the final agenda

53:47

for the IEB podcast upfront. Which is happening in New York,

53:49

actually in New York, between

53:53

September the ninth and 10th. it's something that allows

53:55

media buyers to preview new

53:57

shows, coming from podcast

53:57

publishers and new ad tech tools

54:00

to, don't see if you can go

54:00

because it's invite only, but

54:03

it's a good thing to take part

54:03

in if you have been invited.

54:07

And finally there is the international women's podcast awards, which

54:09

sure has been announced as

54:11

the headline partner of a

54:11

that's already been judged.

54:14

I understand the

54:14

ceremony is in line.

54:17

On September the 23rd.

54:19

Excellent.

54:20

I always thought the only way to tell the difference between Kiwis and Aussies was to

54:21

ask them to say fish and chips,

54:25

fashion shops. yes, there is that.

54:27

Or, yes, they call a

54:27

corner, shop a dairy,

54:31

which is very strange. And, yes, there a strange,

54:32

one of the clubhouse rooms

54:38

that I occasionally jump into

54:38

is basically run by Kiwis.

54:41

And it's great fun to jump in

54:41

there and hear all of these,

54:44

Americans, gassed at the

54:44

fact that they're talking to

54:46

somebody from New Zealand. So it's very interesting.

54:50

It's always a good thing.

54:51

Did you say clubhouse? Sorry, this is 19.

54:54

I did say club's sorry. Are we back in

54:55

January 20, 21 again?

54:58

No, it's still going, I believe. so yeah.

55:00

Okay. Yeah.

55:02

Finally then James. So what else has happened for

55:03

you in Portland this week?

55:05

so I have spent much

55:05

of the week talking to lawyers

55:08

about a news story that,

55:08

we're not mentioning today.

55:11

so that's good. It's been a bit of a fraught

55:12

week for, reasons, best knots.

55:15

gone into, Sam, what is

55:15

happening for you in Portland

55:19

over the next few weeks?

55:19

my wig sounds a lot quieter than yours. That's for certain, I'm

55:21

interviewing Gary Lineker the,

55:25

famous football on TV pundits.

55:27

Crisp salesman. Yes, indeed. So that's this week, I just

55:29

interviewed Joe Royal from,

55:32

any Everton fans out there

55:32

would know who he was.

55:35

Family. Yeah. Yeah.

55:38

very funny. No,

55:39

yes, no. Unless you read the football,

55:41

it's not a podcast you want to.

55:43

Yeah. All the Americans listening have

55:44

no concept of what's going on

55:48

now. I'll just say soccer and

55:50

there'll be fine. And this is for your, this

55:51

is for your English premier

55:53

league soccer podcast, which

55:53

is called the old spice book.

55:57

Indeed. And you'll find that in all

55:58

good podcast apps like this one.

56:02

And that's it for this week, you can come back to pipeline next time.

56:04

Follow us cost app. Oh, we're at Podland

56:06

dot news on the web.

56:09

If you have any comments or questions. And you'd like to talk to

56:11

this show as well, tweet us at

56:14

potluck news. Yes. And if you would like

56:15

daily news, you should get pod news, the newsletters

56:17

free upon news.net.

56:20

The podcast is in your podcast app, and that's where you'll find the links

56:22

for all the stories we've mentioned in this way.

56:25

Our

56:25

music is from ignite jingles and. And sponsored a by bus

56:27

sprout and a Riverside FM.

56:31

If you enjoyed this episode

56:31

or any of the other previous

56:33

ones, please tell your friend about Portland. I will see you in Portland

56:38

and also thank you

56:38

to headliner for giving

56:41

us some excellent tools as

56:41

well and keep listening.