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Come to Portland. Podland is sponsored

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podcast [email protected]. It's Thursday, February

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the 11th, 2021.

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I'm James. Cridland the editor of

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pod news here in Australia

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and I'm not a cat. And I'm Sam.

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Sethi the editor of

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Sam Talks Technology here

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in the UK and I have a dog

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Wolf, and I'm

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Jamie from match cast.

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And I'll be on later to talk about Sam

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club and I'm Jonas

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lay at Harvard, a letter.

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I'll be talking about Spotify

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0:56

Now coming up in this

0:56

week stories, the first

0:59

story that we wanted to

0:59

talk about was a music.

1:01

Fair usage. James, you wrote a piece

1:03

about music, fair usage.

1:05

What was

1:06

that all about? Yes. Well, I wrote a piece a

1:07

long time ago on how to use

1:11

commercial music in podcasts.

1:13

And the basic answer is no. Don't and some people

1:14

say fair use, fair use.

1:18

And you say no, it's far too complicated to basically say yeah, fair

1:20

use will probably be okay.

1:22

So the easiest way for me to

1:22

write a simple article about

1:28

how to use commercial music

1:28

was to say no, Don't use it.

1:31

Literally the people who wrote

1:31

the book on fair use literally

1:37

ended up saying actually it's

1:37

not quite as simple as that.

1:40

And so they have written

1:40

Patricia after Heider and

1:44

Peter jazzy have written a

1:44

really good article on how

1:49

fair use works in the U S.

1:52

What you can do with it and

1:52

what you can't do with it.

1:55

And they basically say

1:55

as long as you know what

1:57

you're doing, as long as you

1:57

know, what the courts call

2:00

fair use, then go ahead.

2:03

And it's a really

2:03

interesting article as well.

2:06

Read. This has been a bugbear

2:06

for many podcasts thinking.

2:09

Justin Jackson over at

2:09

transistor FM has published

2:12

five pieces of music for free as

2:12

Podcast intros that you can use.

2:16

And these listed a whole

2:16

bunch of sites as well,

2:19

where you can get fair use

2:19

or free licensed music.

2:23

So there are places you can

2:23

go, but I've got one other

2:26

problem, which you probably

2:26

know very well is I've done

2:30

music podcasts in the past,

2:30

and I've published them.

2:33

Let's say to Facebook or

2:33

snippets to Twitter, and

2:36

certainly on Facebook, the

2:36

Copyright Gestapo for the music

2:40

suddenly comes down and blocks

2:40

the Podcast or blocks the video.

2:45

And that's even when

2:45

I have a PRS license.

2:47

So I'm legally as a radio

2:47

licensee, have a license from

2:52

the UK to broadcast music.

2:55

But that doesn't seem to work

2:56

internationally. And I think this is one

2:57

of the difficulties is that actually there are a

2:59

ton of robots out there.

3:01

There are a ton of things out there, which are busy working out, whether or not

3:03

that is somebody's music.

3:07

And they don't know whether you've signed a contract. They don't know whether

3:09

it's your actual music.

3:11

There's a lot of stories about

3:11

individual music, composers.

3:15

Who've played their own music

3:15

and then get chucked off YouTube

3:18

because of copyright violation. I mean that.

3:21

Stuff is mental. And I think this is

3:22

one of the difficulties with music licensing.

3:26

interestingly, I'm actually

3:26

speaking at a conference for

3:30

some music collection agencies

3:30

in the next couple of weeks.

3:34

And they've asked me, could you please explain how podcasting works, which is

3:36

going to be really interesting.

3:40

So I'm looking forward. To that. I better not say too much

3:42

more about that, but , um, you

3:45

know, so that, that should be

3:45

an interesting time, but we've

3:48

seen so many companies promising

3:48

all kinds of different ways

3:52

of licensing, commercially

3:52

available music, and it's

3:55

really not come to much. So it'd be wonderful

3:57

if that was fixed.

3:59

and in fact, it is fixed on one

3:59

thing it's fixed on Spotify.

4:03

Tom Webster friend of the show,

4:03

he's got his own music show

4:07

or other podcasts with music. It's called deep six and it's

4:09

on Spotify and it's very good.

4:12

And there's another one from Brad Hill, which is all about cover versions

4:14

and brand rights reign.

4:17

So yeah, there are other

4:17

ways of doing it, but it's

4:20

only really things that work

4:20

on Spotify because again,

4:23

they have the licenses

4:23

to do that sort of thing.

4:26

Yeah. It's the only

4:28

way I think, but it

4:28

gives them that advantage and.

4:32

I wonder whether other platforms

4:32

will start to try and get

4:35

a global license because

4:35

clearly PRS and the equivalent

4:38

in the USA are not going to

4:39

talk to each other. Yeah. and I think it'll be really

4:41

interesting seeing whether

4:44

or not there is a more

4:44

global view here and a

4:47

global way to buy licenses. I think that there's quite

4:49

a lot of Podcast as who'd

4:51

be very happy to spend a

4:51

couple of hundred dollars.

4:55

On licensing a piece of

4:55

music as long as they can

4:58

actually legally use it, but

4:58

that clearly isn't actually

5:01

happening right now, apart

5:01

from of course on Spotify.

5:05

Now talking about Spotify,

5:05

I mentioned a new book

5:08

the other week it's

5:08

called the Spotify play.

5:10

It's the history of Spotify. It's a great book to read.

5:13

I spoke to one of the authors

5:13

Jonas lay on Harvard, and

5:17

I asked him why Spotify is

5:17

so interested in podcasts.

5:22

Spotify has succeeded

5:22

in becoming the world's biggest

5:26

streaming service for music,

5:26

but that's other people's

5:29

content and it's never going

5:29

to be super profitable.

5:32

Most likely. I think that one reason

5:34

is that they want to sell

5:37

their own content and become

5:37

a Netflix for podcasting.

5:41

So to speak investors on

5:41

wall street, appreciate a

5:45

business bottle like that. One reason is that they want

5:46

to be able to produce and

5:49

distribute their own content and

5:49

make Spotify more profitable.

5:53

The other reason they want

5:53

to maintain their users, I

5:56

think they've tried to develop

5:56

video and television services

6:00

that hasn't worked very well. And they've arrived at this.

6:03

Strategy of trying to

6:03

become the, sort of

6:05

the King of all audio. They want to own your ears,

6:06

not just music, but also

6:09

podcasting and eventually,

6:09

maybe audio books as well.

6:12

They've started a little bit with that, dipping their toe in that business.

6:15

Also,

6:16

we're really illuminating about the TV work that they've done.

6:19

When did they start doing

6:19

podcasting and other non

6:24

musical audio content? Well,

6:26

Spotify is a large it

6:26

service in late 2008 in Europe.

6:31

And the next big challenge

6:31

was entering the U S market.

6:34

And once they'd done that

6:34

in 2011, then I think they

6:37

started looking at all kinds

6:37

of other alternatives and

6:39

video and television was part

6:39

of the plan to start out with.

6:43

And so they invested heavily

6:43

in that failed and around the

6:46

same time, I think they started. Looking into audio books and

6:49

stuff like that a little bit.

6:51

I think Daniel, Eric likes

6:51

to talk about something in

6:54

Germany in 2012, I think in

6:54

earnest, they'd probably started

6:58

working on this and maybe

6:58

at three or four years ago.

7:01

And then of course they,

7:01

they moved in heavily in

7:04

2019, investing in the

7:04

companies such as Gimlet.

7:08

And and now they've

7:08

invested about a billion.

7:10

Dollars in this area. so it's the new, big thing.

7:13

In the past

7:14

two years, somebody

7:14

was saying that Spotify

7:16

have invested more in the

7:16

podcast industry than the

7:18

podcast industry is worth. Do you think that's fair?

7:22

I'm not sure about

7:22

those numbers, but is

7:24

it a, the sort of the

7:24

turnover, annual turnover?

7:27

The Podcast thing industry

7:27

is comparable to what

7:30

they've been investing. Yeah. they're doing this. To secure their own future.

7:34

And I think some of the price

7:34

tags look pretty big, but I

7:38

think they need some exclusive

7:38

content and they need to move

7:41

in to this area in a way that,

7:41

that people will take notice.

7:45

They're hoping that this field

7:45

can grow substantially in

7:49

terms of advertising revenue

7:49

and also other ways of.

7:52

People subscribing to

7:53

podcasts. so how does owning

7:54

their own content help?

7:57

Because I was reading the

7:57

results recently about they

8:02

were saying, you know, that no,

8:02

the amount of Podcast listening

8:05

that we have won't change the

8:05

amount of money that we're.

8:08

Paying the record companies. Do you think that's a longterm

8:10

view of theirs or do you

8:13

think that inevitably the

8:13

record companies are going to

8:15

get less money out of them? I don't

8:17

think that's a long-term view. I think they wanna keep

8:18

their podcasting revenue and

8:21

I think they want to keep

8:21

the record labels happy.

8:24

A few years ago it looked like they, they were going to be a sort of a self

8:26

publishing platform for music.

8:29

And I think they stepped away

8:29

from that because th the record

8:32

labels didn't the they didn't

8:32

like the way that sounded.

8:35

And and now the they're gonna

8:35

negotiate so that they can have,

8:39

and share the music revenues

8:39

in the same way with the record

8:41

industry and let them lead the

8:41

way in terms of music and still

8:45

just be a platform for that. They're gonna want to make

8:46

money on podcasting, on, on

8:50

the Podcast ads and maybe

8:50

special subscription services

8:53

when it comes to podcasting

8:53

and Definitely keep the

8:56

money on, the exclusive

8:56

content that they produce.

8:59

So more to come. And a lot of those dealings

9:00

are fairly secretive.

9:03

So I don't know exactly where

9:03

they're at, but I'm sure

9:06

that they're negotiating. with the music industry.

9:08

Yeah.

9:08

There's certainly a secretive company. Aren't they? I wonder what kind of company

9:10

you think Spotify is now?

9:14

Is it still a Swedish

9:14

company or is it being driven

9:17

very much by U S values? These days two

9:21

Swedish founders are still in control of the company and They still live

9:22

in Sweden and Stockholm is

9:26

still had the headquarters, but

9:26

New York is a bigger office.

9:30

So Stockholm and New York are

9:30

the two most important offices

9:34

and Daniel Eric spends a great

9:34

deal of time in New York also.

9:38

So it's still pretty much

9:38

a Swedish company, but of

9:41

course, most of the 6,007,000

9:41

employees are, uh look,

9:47

our work outside of Sweden. At this point.

9:50

And I think in terms of

9:50

values I think Netflix has

9:53

been an important, uh sort

9:53

of inspiration for them

9:57

through Barry McCarthy who

9:57

came in and was the the CFO

10:01

for many years at Spotify.

10:03

And even after his departure

10:03

I think Daniel has.

10:08

In recent years become a

10:08

kind of a tougher boss and in

10:12

the Netflix manner, viewing

10:12

the company as a team, not

10:16

as a family, that is he's

10:16

demanding of his lieutenants.

10:19

And if they don't perform,

10:19

then they step aside and

10:22

he wants them to view. There are a role at the

10:24

company in terms of two year

10:28

mission and so on, so that

10:28

this is not a forever place.

10:31

You're you? You're here as long as

10:32

you're the best performing

10:34

player on the field. And then when you're not

10:35

anymore, you're exchanged

10:37

for somebody else. And and that's the way

10:38

a company should be run. So I think they've been inspired

10:41

by Netflix in a lot of ways in

10:44

terms of business model and in

10:44

terms of how to run a business.

10:46

Yes.

10:47

I read that bit in

10:47

your book and I was there

10:49

thinking, Oh my goodness, that

10:49

doesn't sound like a company

10:52

that I want to work for. I don't know.

10:54

that's definitely not a Swedish way. Is it?

10:57

Who's used to say these days. I think that in a lot of ways

10:59

it's still a Swedish company

11:02

when it comes to values

11:02

like parental leave and.

11:05

It does want to provide

11:05

a good life work balance.

11:08

It does want to have

11:08

generous terms when it

11:11

comes to parental leave. And a lot of those things that

11:12

are considered Swedish, but

11:15

when it comes to their top

11:15

performing bosses they want

11:18

to behave like an, like a big

11:18

tech company and at that level,

11:24

and be able to shed skin and

11:24

Evolve and change rapidly.

11:29

So rapid growth, rapid change.

11:31

I think it comes with the territory. If you want to be a

11:33

successful big tech company. I don't take us a

11:35

very cynical view.

11:38

I think it makes sense for

11:38

them to step up in this way.

11:41

And I'm sure that some

11:41

people will get squeezed.

11:44

A company that's evolving

11:44

and changing so quickly will

11:47

make a lot of mistakes and

11:47

will hurt a lot of feelings.

11:50

And. Force people away that could

11:51

have stayed, but it's part of

11:54

the way when you're developing

11:55

quickly, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I heard somebody the other day

11:56

saying that Spotify was very

11:59

clever in that they had bought

11:59

both the largest consumer

12:02

podcast hosts in anchor and

12:02

the largest business consumer

12:06

host in terms of megaphone. And I thought, yeah, I'd

12:08

not considered it that way

12:10

around, but yeah, absolutely. They've just gone out and

12:12

bought the number one in

12:14

those markets, which has been really interesting. Your book says that both

12:17

Google and Microsoft were

12:19

interested in buying Spotify.

12:22

And I'm curious, where

12:22

do you see Spotify in

12:24

five or 10 years time? Will it still be independent

12:26

or will it have been

12:28

subsumed by someone

12:30

when Daniel lik

12:30

gets up on, on various tech

12:33

stages and Stockholm and

12:33

other parts of Europe, he

12:37

always gives the advice. Don't sell your company

12:38

to a big American firm

12:40

or a big Chinese company. Keep on developing a company

12:42

and be independent and.

12:45

us Europeans, we have to

12:45

develop big tech companies also.

12:49

and and he said that he's

12:49

going to invest a third of

12:51

his wealth in, uh startups

12:51

from Europe and so on.

12:54

So he's patriotic in that sense. And I think he means it.

12:57

I think he's proud that

12:57

he's independent still.

13:00

he doesn't talk about that. He's negotiated with Google and

13:01

Microsoft and a few other kinds

13:04

of companies, 10 cent also. but he has, and I think

13:06

that his reason for selling

13:09

the company would be, can

13:09

I strengthen the company by

13:12

merging it with somebody else? And I think that if they'd

13:14

let them be in charge of a

13:16

combined YouTube, Spotify

13:16

something over at Google.

13:20

Then he might've sold his company to Google, but they didn't.

13:23

And he didn't, he felt

13:23

underappreciated is is

13:26

what our sources tell us. and those negotiations

13:27

in 2000, uh 10 and again,

13:31

in 2013, I believe so. um I don't think it's going

13:33

to sell but maybe he'll merge

13:36

with it Netflix or Disney

13:36

or something and he'll do

13:38

it if he feels that he can. keep on leading the company

13:40

in a way that will be positive

13:44

for its shareholders and

13:44

for the users and so on.

13:47

If he can strengthen the

13:47

consumer and sort of offer and

13:50

the product, then he might. But I think he'll

13:52

be reluctant to

13:53

you think he's

13:53

likely to be like Jeff

13:56

Bezos and just get bored. It doesn't

13:58

look that way. but I do think that he might do

13:59

what Jeff basis does and step

14:03

back and become a executive

14:03

chairman or something like

14:06

that because he sometimes is

14:06

not super interested in the

14:10

day-to-day and more interested

14:10

in the sort of grand chess board

14:12

and the strategic long-term

14:12

thinking it's entirely possible.

14:16

He's also interested in him and

14:16

other companies, particularly

14:19

in the digital health sector. So it was sort of at some point

14:21

handing over the day-to-day

14:24

rains to somebody else. I wouldn't put that past

14:26

them, but I think he

14:28

wants to be in control. this is, I mean, he was so

14:30

young when he started Spotify

14:33

23 years old and it's, he's

14:33

very synonymous with the company

14:38

is what our sources tell us. And kind of sensitive to

14:39

journalists covering his

14:43

company and writing a

14:43

book like this and so on.

14:46

Uh but also, um very involved in

14:46

in, in the main sort of points

14:52

of, uh growing the company

14:52

and evolving the company.

14:55

so I don't think he's going

14:55

to Hand it over and do

14:57

something entirely different. anytime soon I expect he'll

14:59

be involved in Spotify

15:02

for a long time to come.

15:03

the book is called the Spotify play. How CEO and founder Daniel act

15:05

beat Apple, Google, and Amazon

15:09

in the race for audio dominance,

15:09

my short snappy title.

15:13

It's published by diversion

15:13

books and it's out now

15:16

in all good bookshops,

15:16

Jonas texts, skull to her

15:20

texts to me,

15:21

James. What'd you think of my

15:22

Norwegian there Sam if we do

15:24

this once a week,

15:24

you'll be bilingual

15:27

eventually before you die.

15:29

As long as the only thing I have to say is the

15:31

word. Thank you. Can I story?

15:33

Me and my friends wrote a

15:33

book many years ago called

15:37

how to order a McDonald's

15:37

in foreign languages.

15:41

And the best one we had

15:41

was Swahili, which was

15:45

Mimi in the sale way. And that was basically

15:47

how to order a McDonald's

15:50

quarter pounder in Swahili.

15:52

The easy way to order

15:52

a McDonald's when you're

15:54

overseas point and you say

15:54

meal number four, please.

15:58

Cause they're all numbered. They're all numbered,

15:59

which is brilliant. you spotted another thing

16:01

about Spotify didn't you

16:04

Dubai has been hosting

16:04

antisemitic content, according

16:08

to Joseph Cohen, writing

16:08

in the Jewish Chronicle.

16:11

Now this is a topic that we've. Tangentially talked about

16:12

James through several of the

16:15

shows that we you've done. And it's a little thing

16:17

that I guess I want to know

16:20

the answer who's policing.

16:22

The Podcast now famously this

16:22

week, we've been seeing the

16:26

platforming of, I think one of

16:26

the Kennedy's was D platform

16:30

last night from Instagram. we're seeing

16:31

blocking on Twitter. We're seeing blocking

16:33

in clubhouse. So Marc Andreessen block.

16:37

The whole bunch of journalists. And then when he went on to

16:39

clubhouse, all those journalists

16:42

were blocked from actually

16:42

going into the room in clubhouse

16:46

because he had blocked them. So blocking de platforming is

16:47

happening, but in podcasting,

16:52

no one seems to be doing it. And how are we going to.

16:56

Police are already just going to let the laissez Faire people do it.

16:59

And then they'd take people

16:59

to call for defamation if

17:01

they get found out. Do you know what the search

17:02

results that has led the

17:05

most amount of traffic to

17:05

pod news last week was Nope.

17:10

The wool room. Because I wrote a story

17:12

about the war room, which of

17:14

course has been de platformed

17:14

from loads of places.

17:17

And I wrote a story about

17:17

that particular Podcast, which

17:20

I think is interesting at

17:20

the end of the day, neither

17:23

you or I are American to the

17:23

best of my knowledge and.

17:27

Clearly the Americans

17:27

have a strong belief in

17:31

their first amendment. Their first amendment doesn't

17:32

actually stop any of this de

17:36

platforming from going on. Of course, but I suspect that

17:37

we are a little bit more relaxed

17:41

about companies taking stuff

17:41

that they don't agree with off

17:45

their platform than many people

17:45

in the U S and certainly, you

17:50

know I was on the Podcast index.

17:52

Podcast a few weeks

17:52

ago with Adam Curry.

17:55

And Adam very strongly believes

17:55

that you should be able to

17:59

say whatever you want on a

17:59

podcast, whatever you want,

18:03

no matter how incorrect it

18:03

is, you should be able to say

18:06

whatever you want and there's

18:06

conversations going on in the

18:08

Podcast index about all forms

18:08

of sense, uh proof hosting for

18:14

your audio and everything else.

18:16

And I'm just there thinking,

18:16

you know what, if there's

18:19

racist material lifters,

18:19

anti-vax material, if there's

18:22

Material, which is harmful

18:22

in some way, then I think

18:27

it should be pulled off. Don't you?

18:28

I think the platforms,

18:28

the social media platforms

18:32

are finally beginning to take

18:32

what they have as a platform.

18:36

And what's pushed out as content

18:36

on their platforms and take some

18:40

ownership of it, Whether they

18:40

were forced by government to

18:43

remove the anti-vaxxer posts, or

18:43

they were forced by government

18:46

to do what they're having to

18:46

do in fear of section two 30

18:50

reforms that Trump started, but

18:50

may still go ahead under Biden.

18:53

Oh, by the way, it's the 25th

18:53

anniversary of section two 30.

18:56

So it may need a little bit

18:56

of a amendment, but other

18:59

than that, clearly now the

18:59

conversation's moved to

19:02

podcasting and podcasting is.

19:05

Basically, it's not being

19:05

monitored and that's

19:07

the same in clubhouse. We have seen reports of rums

19:08

where a racist communications

19:13

they're sexist, communications So I'm just, I'm thinking audio

19:15

generally isn't being policed.

19:19

And should it be because there

19:19

are fear would be that Charlie

19:23

is the other end of the scale,

19:23

China just banned the clubhouse.

19:26

So yeah. Is it a free speech platform

19:27

Podcast in James or is

19:30

it just something that we haven't caught up with? And maybe we just need to say

19:32

Podcast hosts have to start

19:36

to look at what they allow on

19:38

their platform. Yeah, I think certainly

19:39

post moderation.

19:42

Which is where someone

19:42

says, you sure you really

19:45

want that on your platform? And the podcast host goes, Oh

19:46

no, we don't want that on our

19:49

platform and kick people off. I think that's absolutely

19:51

the right thing to do. And that's fine.

19:54

Under section two 30

19:54

right now, the whole

19:56

idea of post moderation. And it works in

19:58

the UK law as well.

20:01

I think where you're expecting

20:01

a audio platform to listen to

20:06

every podcast before it gets

20:06

published, then that's a very

20:09

different kettle of fish. And I don't think that we should

20:10

be going anywhere near that, but

20:13

certainly if a podcast is racist

20:13

and unpleasant, And a podcast

20:20

host is told it is then a

20:20

podcast hosts should at the very

20:25

least have a listen to it and

20:25

make a decision as to whether or

20:27

not they want to pull it down. I've reported as I think I've

20:29

said here before a very racist

20:32

Podcast to a major podcast

20:32

host, and they've just turned

20:36

around and said, Oh And I don't

20:36

think that's the right thing to

20:38

do is not the right

20:38

thing to do, but let's see if

20:40

anyone takes someone to court. Maybe let's say any way

20:42

that people then start to

20:45

take it more seriously.

20:46

Now let's talk about

20:46

toys in particular toy phones.

20:49

as you know, I have an Android

20:49

phone at a very good phone.

20:53

it does all kinds of things. It's very good.

20:55

You though, I believe. Sam you have a toy phone.

21:00

That's right. Isn't it. I too, yes.

21:02

It's got a picture of fruit

21:03

on it. Yes. The Tim cook special. I have a, I have an iPhone

21:05

11 plus max because I

21:08

just think size matters. And, but that means I can

21:10

also play with the new

21:14

iOS 14.5 beater, which

21:14

I will load later today.

21:18

It says that Apple has finally

21:18

added the ability to set a

21:21

default music streaming service. Which means that I can ask Siri

21:23

to use Spotify and say something

21:27

like, Hey, Siri, play the lazy

21:27

song on Spotify and it will do

21:31

it. Yes, very cool. And from what I read, there is

21:33

also a default Podcast streaming

21:37

service on the system as well. So again, you can actually

21:39

set Spotify as your

21:43

preferred podcast app, if

21:43

you are that way inclined.

21:47

Interesting seeing that

21:47

Apple is again, catching up.

21:50

To what Android and

21:50

indeed the Alexa has had

21:53

for quite some time now

21:55

it got to the point of

21:55

view where Apple will never

21:58

be the first out the door

21:58

they are the toys to the hair.

22:01

Really. They're just going to see what

22:01

the market's doing and then

22:03

build a feature in, and for

22:03

the majority of people out

22:07

there who aren't tech savvy.

22:09

It'll feel like it's at the

22:09

bleeding edge enough for them.

22:12

So yes, on my Alexa, I could say

22:12

Alexa, play Podland news and it

22:16

will use my default player and

22:16

that player could be Spotify.

22:20

And I've done that for

22:20

some time now, but yeah,

22:23

if you want to now in your

22:23

iPhone, that would be great.

22:26

I think it's mainly. For Apple to catch up in

22:27

their home pod market with

22:30

Google home and Amazon Alexa? No,

22:33

I did notice as well. I was looking at my Pod news

22:34

is Podcast stats for yesterday,

22:37

and I discovered that the most

22:37

popular Podcast app yesterday

22:42

wasn't Apple podcasts, which

22:42

it normally was it's Siri.

22:47

Because I'm available

22:47

on the Apple Siri

22:51

news briefing service. So if you say Siri, play the

22:52

latest news from pod news,

22:57

podcasting news, and then

22:57

my dulcet tones will appear.

23:00

And I thought, wow,

23:00

that is really high.

23:03

Google news is also really

23:03

high, but I've never seen

23:07

Siri being number one. So who knows, maybe people are

23:08

using Siri a little bit more to

23:12

ask for podcasts these days now.

23:14

I

23:15

knew tag went live called

23:15

location a few weeks ago, which

23:18

is all about where a podcast is

23:18

about, but it's not a new thing.

23:23

Is it James? There's been a thing called

23:25

maps FM for awhile maps.fm.

23:28

It's a website and

23:28

it's really cool.

23:30

It's a clever way to

23:30

discover podcasts.

23:32

I'm not just saying that because

23:32

I'm an advisor to the company.

23:35

It's really cool. Anyway, so I spoke to the CEO

23:36

of the company, Wayne Parker.

23:40

And I started by asking him

23:40

what map's FM actually is.

23:45

XFM

23:45

is the combination

23:45

of podcasting and mapping.

23:49

And we think it creates a

23:49

great new form of discovery.

23:53

A lot of Podcast of the 90

23:53

million episodes out there,

23:56

a significant number of them

23:56

are connected to a place.

24:00

And that means we can put them on a map. And if we put them on a map,

24:02

we enter both a local element

24:07

and we enter a time machine. And we add to that

24:08

podcast episode, all

24:12

of the power of a map. And let me start by saying

24:13

first that a listener has a

24:17

new form of discovery, and

24:17

we know how podcasts are

24:21

typically discovered now for

24:21

the variety of means, but on a

24:25

map, that means that if you're

24:25

in a city, your own city, Or

24:28

a place where you're visiting. You can look at the pins on

24:30

the map and say, what's that.

24:34

And then when you click on

24:34

the pin, you might see that

24:37

it's opened up the door

24:37

to a podcast about a place

24:40

or about a story, about

24:42

any number of things. So give me an example,

24:43

maybe I'm on holiday in San

24:47

Francisco, shall we say? Or the Bay area?

24:49

What sort of thing will I find? So as you

24:52

would look around in

24:52

the Bay area, you would see a

24:54

pin at the golden gate bridge. And if you didn't know the

24:55

history of that sort of

24:58

remarkable structure, you could

24:58

listen to a podcast about that.

25:02

Or if you looked at the

25:02

North end of the Bay,

25:04

you would see a pin. And if you clicked on it and you

25:05

would say, what is San Quentin?

25:08

San Quentin is a prison. And that would lead you to

25:10

the Podcast ear hustle, which

25:13

is produced by the inmates. And in that form, you could.

25:18

Dive into something that you

25:18

might not have known existed,

25:22

or even if you had heard of

25:22

San Quentin prison, you might

25:25

not have known where it was. And now you've got.

25:28

A different connection to it. You might look at Penn's

25:30

down in Silicon Valley

25:32

and click on one and, Oh,

25:32

there's a computer history

25:35

museum and hear a podcast

25:35

episode where the director

25:38

of the museum talks about his

25:38

relationship with Steve jobs.

25:42

And what would Steve jobs think

25:42

about the privacy issues today?

25:47

And it's really surprising

25:47

his answers to that.

25:51

So that's some of the things,

25:51

and it would vary everything

25:55

from those things I mentioned. Two, a history of surfing over

25:56

on the coast to the change

26:00

in color and the salt beds

26:00

at the South end of the Bay.

26:04

Now none of this information is in the RSS feed as yet.

26:07

So how do you get the

26:07

information on what place

26:10

or Podcast is about? So we

26:12

are, you know, coding those meaning. We find a latitude

26:14

and the longitude in

26:17

order to connect those. So at maps, FM.

26:20

We are building and refining

26:20

the engine that will

26:24

do that for podcasters. Now you have having said

26:26

that you've done this

26:30

really wonderful thing. You and others have created

26:31

this location tag, which

26:34

means going forward for where

26:34

it's supported, that the

26:38

podcasters will be able to add. Their own location.

26:42

We're trying to bridge to that

26:42

period of time, which out.

26:45

So it could be, we think a

26:45

fairly long period of time

26:48

before everyone's on board

26:48

and also then add a human

26:51

curation to that because maps

26:51

have limited real estate.

26:56

So if you looked at that map

26:56

of the San Francisco Bay area

27:01

that you mentioned, and you put.

27:04

Hundreds of thousands of

27:04

pens there you lose the

27:07

advantage of the discovery. So we're doing two things

27:08

is we're geocoding each of

27:12

those episodes, and then

27:12

we're adding a human curation

27:15

to it. That's interesting. And if I'm a Podcast app,

27:16

for example, or I don't know,

27:20

maybe I'm Tesla or somebody,

27:20

can I use the maps, FM data

27:23

to offer my users something

27:23

special inside the app?

27:28

You can,

27:29

yes. Then that's part of

27:29

our model is the.

27:33

Maps FM data is free

27:33

to listeners and it's

27:36

free to podcasters. And then we will have

27:38

API APIs available for

27:41

custom uses of the data. As you said, for an automotive

27:43

company or someone who

27:46

wants a map worldwide of all

27:46

the true crime locations.

27:50

Not that kind of

27:51

thing. And if I run a podcast

27:51

about a specific place

27:54

or specific places, maybe

27:54

I do a travel podcast.

27:59

Maybe I do a podcast about

27:59

breweries around the world.

28:01

which would be a very fine thing. I should do that. then how can I

28:03

get into maps, FM?

28:05

just contact

28:06

[email protected].

28:09

That's me Wayne

28:09

Parker [email protected].

28:12

And we'd love to talk to you. We are always looking for

28:14

partners and other people

28:16

to help us move this

28:17

forward. Where do you see the

28:18

future of Podcast?

28:22

Discovery going, is it going

28:22

to be more based around

28:25

things and places, and is

28:25

location going to be more

28:29

important as we go forward?

28:31

I think it certainly will be a great new form of discovery.

28:34

There are lots of podcasts

28:34

that just don't fit this model.

28:38

Certainly a political podcast

28:38

that has no connection

28:40

to a particular place. Doesn't but then if

28:41

you've got 19 categories

28:46

and you think about. Location being five

28:47

or six or 7% of that.

28:52

It's like a whole of the total,

28:52

it's like a whole new category.

28:55

So I think of it that way as

28:55

you have all of these main

28:59

categories now, and then we're

28:59

going to add to this, whether

29:02

it's done explicitly that way

29:02

as is a whole new maps category.

29:07

So you asked me the question,

29:07

let me ask that to you.

29:10

Or where do you see this going?

29:12

I suspect that

29:12

it's I think that location

29:14

is really interesting. I think, in certain places,

29:15

you know, wouldn't it be

29:18

great if you were driving on

29:18

a long distance drive across

29:22

the U S or across Europe? And you could for the next

29:24

half hour here, a podcast,

29:28

which is all about the place

29:28

where you are driving to so

29:31

that you actually get there

29:31

and you are educated, you

29:34

understand about this place and

29:34

you get much more value out of

29:38

visiting that particular place. I think there's a bunch of

29:40

really interesting things that you could do with that.

29:44

And I also think it's, yes, another. A tool that we can use to help

29:46

people find more podcasts.

29:51

What, with the being,

29:51

I think Spotify say 2.2

29:54

million podcasts out there. I think Apple podcasts it's a

29:55

little bit less, but not much.

29:58

that's a lot of podcasts. And so anything more that we

29:59

know about a podcast should

30:03

certainly help people find

30:03

a great find a great show.

30:06

Yeah. Yeah.

30:07

and along the way on

30:07

that trip to the, see the pins,

30:10

click on the pins as you go,

30:10

because, and I've done that

30:13

and discovered and driven past

30:13

a place and clicked on the pin

30:16

and heard the audio episode. Just tell me that the Lake

30:18

drains automatically, but they

30:22

don't know where the water goes. Do you know, just surprises

30:24

like that, that you

30:26

find as you're travel?

30:28

I think it's a great thing. And I think, the more of that

30:29

than we can do, and of course,

30:33

you know, really helpful on

30:33

not just in your car, but

30:36

really helpful in things like

30:36

airplanes as well, so that

30:39

you could actually program

30:39

the in-flight entertainment.

30:42

If I'm flying to LA, for

30:42

example, then I could actually

30:45

learn more about LA and

30:45

the parts around LA that I

30:50

want to have a listen to. So I think there's a great

30:51

opportunity for loads

30:54

of things to come here. So yeah, I'm really excited

30:55

about what maps FM might be

30:58

able to accomplish in this. thank you

31:00

very much. We, in as people go to maps.fm,

31:00

they will see we're still on

31:03

a little bit of a demo mode,

31:03

but we're coming out of that

31:06

soon and look forward to

31:06

hearing from people and getting

31:08

their feedback. thank you for your time. I appreciate

31:10

it. I'm honored to talk with you.

31:13

Thank you, James.

31:14

So James listening to that

31:14

it sounds exciting that you can

31:18

do that, but is this just in the

31:18

interim before the location tag

31:21

is adopted by podcasting hosts?

31:24

I think to an extent

31:24

it might be, but I think

31:26

what maps FM has been doing

31:26

is they've been doing a lot

31:29

of human curation as well. And so I think yes, anyone

31:31

can put a location for their

31:36

Podcast now in the RSS feed, if.

31:38

If they're on a supported host

31:38

and Buzzsprout now supports that

31:42

as well, who are our sponsors? That information isn't

31:43

necessarily always going to be

31:47

correct or always going to be. And so I think it's nice

31:48

that maps FM are a little

31:52

bit more human in terms

31:52

of how they curate all

31:55

of this kind of stuff. So they should hopefully

31:56

stop things like spamming

31:59

and all that sort of thing. So a

32:01

story that caught my eye,

32:01

James is something that you

32:03

wrote about, which was fireside.

32:05

Now this is Mark Cuban's

32:05

new app, where hosts can

32:09

talk to fans live and

32:09

monetize their conversations.

32:12

Have you heard of another app? Like that

32:15

sounds vaguely

32:15

similar sense.

32:18

Hide in a club house.

32:20

maybe that sounds. Vaguely similar

32:21

to that clubhouse.

32:23

What's this clubhouse

32:24

talk about? And what clubhouse

32:25

is basically, yeah. Being saying with a new

32:26

funding is that they will be

32:30

testing things like tipping,

32:30

ticketing, and subscription.

32:35

And so that of course

32:35

makes perfect sense.

32:38

So Mark Cuban clearly

32:38

wants to be in on the game.

32:41

He shown how intelligent he

32:41

is because he's launching a

32:44

podcast app or what he calls

32:44

a Podcast app, which has

32:48

the complete Zeit Geist of

32:48

what's going on in the world

32:51

at the moment with clubhouse. And he's also shown how

32:53

dim he is by not actually

32:56

doing a quick search for the

32:56

word fireside in the web.

32:59

Podcast cause there's a really

32:59

good podcast hosting company run

33:04

by Dan Benjamin called fireside.

33:06

He is of course not

33:06

particularly happy about this.

33:10

So hopefully Mark Cuban will

33:10

be a good boy and changed

33:14

the name of his product

33:14

away from a product that

33:17

already exists in this space. But anyway it looks interesting.

33:21

what's your take on it?

33:22

I think first of all,

33:22

If they're going to change

33:24

the name of far, so they

33:24

better change the logo as

33:27

well, which is pretty crap. Christmas scene, a gay,

33:28

an absolute thumbs down.

33:31

yes, I think the problem

33:31

with all of this and it

33:34

feels like Mark Cuban. I have a lot of money.

33:36

This might be a big. Platform space to get into.

33:39

Now he's got a great

33:39

co-founder in Fallon.

33:41

Fatemia who sold at her last

33:41

company for a lot of money.

33:45

They might produce something,

33:45

but will people migrate to it?

33:48

I doubt it. And I think clubhouse probably,

33:48

as you said, are announcing

33:51

ticketing and subscriptions. They'll probably roll that out.

33:54

I think clubhouse is now

33:54

over 30 million people on it.

33:58

A fireside hasn't even launched. I think it will be a massive

33:59

leap for people to abandon

34:03

clubhouse, to go there. They might abandon clubhouse

34:04

for Twitter spaces.

34:07

But I doubt they're going to

34:07

abandon it for fireside or

34:10

a future name of fireside. And of course, Mark

34:11

Zuckerberg, couldn't keep out of the news kitty.

34:14

So I, you probably saw he

34:14

jumped on clubhouse this week

34:18

to have a little conversation,

34:18

which set the Twitter RT and

34:22

all of the Silicon Valley

34:22

lovies into a spin about Mark.

34:28

Zuckerberg's going to buy it

34:28

instantly for $16 billion.

34:31

this was the conversation that was going on. But of course, last night,

34:34

Mark Zuckerberg, or somebody

34:39

said in the New York times

34:39

that Facebook is going to

34:42

have their own version of

34:42

clubhouse as well, just because

34:45

he can't think of new ideas. So if you can't beat

34:46

them, join them. And

34:48

on the other side, I would say that, lots of people have been calling this

34:50

Podcast apps because there's

34:52

something to do with audio,

34:52

And so therefore audio means

34:55

podcasts, but th they really

34:55

aren't what Pharcyde, Mark.

34:59

Cubans far side and what

34:59

clubhouse and what some of

35:03

these other ones are, is

35:03

that they are new apps, which

35:07

are going to significantly

35:07

harm the conference market.

35:11

That's what they really are. And if I could pay $3 to listen

35:12

to Mark Zuckerberg, talk and

35:18

see if he's actually a human

35:18

being and not a robot, then that

35:22

will be $3 that I would spend. I probably wouldn't spend $300.

35:26

Yeah. And an airline ticket and a

35:26

hotel stay so that I could

35:31

watch him even smaller than

35:31

he would be on my mobile phone

35:34

on some large stage somewhere.

35:36

So I look at things like

35:36

clubhouse, and I think,

35:40

actually I would be more

35:40

concerned if I was a conference

35:44

organizer than a podcaster.

35:48

Yeah.

35:48

And sound club. What's the launch to

35:50

this week in Taiwan.

35:53

And the reason why I mentioned

35:53

it, because we are going

35:55

to talk to Jamie , who's

35:55

going to tell us a little

35:58

bit more about it, but what

35:58

they've done is they've put.

36:03

Celebrities and TV personalities

36:03

on stage within sound

36:08

club and they're actually

36:08

charging for those people.

36:12

So exactly what you said,

36:12

they're saying, we don't see

36:16

this as a Podcast killer,

36:16

although it is part of a

36:18

Podcast app called sound on,

36:18

they see it as a means to

36:23

create virtual conferencing and

36:23

charge through monetization.

36:28

So we decided to talk

36:28

to a friend of ours.

36:31

Called Jamie . She's the CEO of

36:31

match cast to tell us more about

36:35

sound on the and sound club,

36:38

which was acquired about two weeks ago. Literally 10 days ago

36:39

is one of Taiwan's

36:43

Podcast hosting platform. And what happened was just

36:46

recently, just literally

36:48

yesterday, they've

36:48

launched a sound club.

36:51

Which is the equivalent of

36:51

Sam clubhouse in Taiwan.

36:54

Now, interestingly, it's a

36:54

little bit of a different

36:56

premise as compared to

36:56

clubhouse because clubhouse

36:59

is deemed to be a, an audio

36:59

social platform where else a

37:02

sound club is mixed in with

37:02

the sound on hosting platform,

37:07

the hosting Podcast player.

37:09

So it has a very different

37:09

premise, but I think it's

37:12

interesting given the fact that,

37:12

they will not shy about going

37:15

out and saying, look, this is

37:15

Taiwan's version of clubhouse.

37:19

And it's meant to be clubhouse

37:19

for Asia and language obviously

37:22

is this big differentiator

37:22

it's going to be obviously

37:25

Chinese first then followed by

37:25

potentially other languages.

37:30

So what features have they

37:30

added recording monetization

37:33

with two of the features I read

37:33

they've added an Android client

37:36

as well because that's a big bug

37:36

bear of many clubhouse users.

37:41

Correct. So I think if you look at the

37:42

way that they have done sound

37:45

club, is that it's built into

37:45

the actual Podcast player.

37:49

So it's a very different,

37:49

I would say UX experience

37:52

is complex to cop house. So what happens if you're just

37:54

launching the sound on player

37:58

and want to listen to podcasts,

37:58

it works that way without asking

38:01

you for any credential, but

38:01

the moment you want to launch

38:04

the song club, which is, has

38:04

a prominent sort of middle.

38:07

Button within the app

38:07

itself, it would ask for

38:09

your Taiwanese number. So you will actually have

38:11

to have the Taiwan mobile

38:13

number in order to register. So it's not open for China

38:15

is yet, but I would think

38:18

that aspirationally that's

38:18

where do you want to go?

38:20

Especially with the Chinese language. And so right now, it's

38:22

actually almost impossible

38:24

to test a feature without

38:24

a Taiwan mobile phone.

38:27

And it's gone in a bit of

38:27

a heat from everyone else

38:30

because when it launches, it

38:30

says it's meant for the world.

38:32

In terms of all the Chinese

38:32

speaking audience and then

38:35

everyone in Singapore,

38:35

obviously Malaysia or anywhere

38:37

else outside of Taiwan could

38:37

not get onto the platform.

38:40

And I think given the fact

38:40

that it is embedded within

38:43

the Podcast player, give

38:43

it a different premise as

38:45

opposed to something like

38:45

clubhouse, which is dreamed

38:48

up from scratch without

38:48

incorporating with any Podcast.

38:51

What I think some club

38:51

is looking to do is very

38:54

much looking at a very

38:54

different version of

38:57

clubhouse and potentially

38:57

having creator conversation.

39:02

Which is possible. So they will not. Abash about saying that.

39:04

Look, we won a platform where.

39:06

host and creator could

39:06

converse with their fans

39:10

and ordinary people who is

39:10

listening to the app content.

39:13

So it's definitely, I think

39:13

monetization for Podcast

39:16

is there is actually

39:16

thinking in terms of what

39:18

I thought clubhouse could

39:18

go, which is hybrid events.

39:22

So being able to buy,

39:22

say tickets to an event

39:26

on the SoundCloud. And then imagine talking

39:28

to your favorite celebrity,

39:31

talking to your favorite host. And I think it's going to be

39:33

backed by the fact that I'm

39:35

17 live in Taiwan is actually

39:35

an entertainment platform.

39:39

So therefore it has that

39:39

credential to be able to pull

39:41

in some celebrity big names onto

39:43

the platform itself. That is a very logical

39:45

way of going forward.

39:47

Clubhouses heritage was

39:47

the founders actually had

39:51

a podcasting app before

39:51

called talk show and.

39:57

Various members in the

39:57

town halls that they've

39:59

held in clubhouse. They've stated very clearly.

40:02

They're going to be adding

40:02

recording capabilities

40:05

back and monetization.

40:08

So I think. There's going to be this real

40:09

merger of many platforms,

40:13

SoundCloud clubhouse. And also, I don't know if

40:14

you've heard Mark Cubans

40:17

launching a platform

40:17

called fireside as well.

40:19

So we're beginning to

40:19

see everyone realizing

40:22

this real time. Immediacy of starting a platform

40:24

and being able to talk to your

40:28

fans and have an interaction.

40:31

The monetize destination

40:31

would be very good to

40:33

see when it starts. And I think obviously given

40:34

theorists propensity to pay

40:38

for stuff Himalayas already

40:38

doing that, I think it'll

40:41

be great to see whether

40:41

SoundCloud gets that first.

40:44

And what the take up

40:44

is, what's your feeling?

40:48

Yeah, I think it would be interesting. So obviously I think we've

40:49

been looking at clubhouse

40:52

for a bit and share some

40:52

of my feedback on LinkedIn.

40:54

I think the challenge with clubhouse, it is still predominantly U S driven kind

40:56

of a social media app platform.

41:01

So when it comes to language

41:01

and all the other sort

41:04

of surfacing content that

41:04

is based on language or

41:07

country is not really there. But interestingly, just this

41:09

week, I think just maybe

41:12

two days ago, clubhouse

41:12

has a new feature update.

41:15

And when I log back in, I

41:15

start seeing a lot of Chinese

41:18

rooms, Japanese sort of

41:18

Korean language based room.

41:22

So I think they might be

41:22

doing some geo-targeting

41:25

that's already happening within the app. Second thing, let's not be

41:26

shy of the fact that Sam

41:29

club is a copycat version

41:29

of clubhouse for Asia.

41:33

Interestingly, it's going to

41:33

dominate what it thinks is

41:36

going to be Chinese market. We're predominantly, you're

41:37

going to have Chinese app user

41:41

who actually wants to go in

41:41

and just basically talk to

41:43

celebrity of content creators

41:43

in Chinese and Mandarin.

41:46

So that's where it's going and

41:46

whether it can actually permeate

41:50

into different markets, like

41:50

perhaps Indonesia, which speaks

41:53

to the HASA Indonesia, I think

41:53

that's timing has to tell.

41:56

And then the thing, I think to

41:56

be honest, I think everyone that

42:00

is fussing all the club housed. Replicas of club house.

42:04

I actually kept people

42:04

or podcasters like us.

42:06

They're not your

42:06

mass media people.

42:09

They're not your regular

42:09

folks on the streets that are

42:12

knowledgeable about clubhouse. So I think in order for it to

42:14

peak and become a mass adopted

42:18

social media or a player

42:18

or a platform that everyone

42:22

uses, it has to get past the

42:22

threshold things that single

42:25

one platform for everybody. So where I think sound club is.

42:28

It's intent is to be the

42:28

first in the market and

42:31

then see where that leads. And obviously it has

42:32

the advantage because it has an app on enjoy.

42:36

And so I think it tends

42:36

to elaborate on that.

42:39

And with the fact that China has

42:39

Ben clubhouse, potentially, if

42:44

it opens up that registration

42:44

to Chinese and as well as

42:47

Hong Kong people that it

42:47

could pull in that crowd.

42:50

Into its own version of

42:50

the clubhouse for Asia,

42:53

which it thinks that's what

42:53

Sam club is going to be

42:56

there. China just banned clubhouse.

42:59

Is that because I think what

42:59

I read was people are free

43:04

to talk about issues because

43:04

it wasn't being monitored

43:07

by the Chinese government. So the converse of that

43:08

is, is sound club going to

43:11

be monitored as a platform

43:11

by the Chinese government.

43:14

Therefore, will people want to

43:14

go on there and talk freely?

43:19

How will that restraint it?

43:20

Yeah. Interesting question. What Chinese government

43:22

obviously is fearful of is in

43:25

the political considerations

43:25

complaints or other type of

43:29

conversations around things

43:29

that are deemed not ideal,

43:32

but West SoundCloud is it's

43:32

actually looking at from an

43:36

entertainment perspective. So you're not going to have a

43:37

lot of political conversations.

43:39

You're not going to have a lot of. Social conversations

43:40

where I think it could

43:43

ring fence it without

43:43

real need for moderation.

43:46

And obviously you

43:46

mentioned about Mark Cuban.

43:48

I read a little bit about it. It seems that it's putting

43:50

moderation up in front center,

43:53

creating that curator program.

43:55

Again, I think not everyone

43:55

is agreeable to having

43:59

moderation on platforms,

43:59

social media platforms.

44:02

So it really depends on

44:02

whether Chinese is going

44:05

to say, okay, I'm just

44:05

going to go into song club.

44:08

To find my tribe and talk

44:08

conversations that are, not

44:11

sensitive or do I see myself

44:11

wanting to go to clubhouse

44:15

and have that sort of

44:15

unfiltered conversation with

44:18

people from around the world? I think that's the

44:20

unique part of the

44:21

difference. Yeah. I think clubhouse has got a

44:22

big issue with not moderating.

44:26

It's that fine line

44:26

between censorship and.

44:30

Moderation and privacy and

44:30

the right to free speech.

44:33

And they're going to have to tread carefully. Cause I have heard already

44:35

that there's reports of rooms

44:38

with far right extremists,

44:38

peer to fault people talking

44:43

about sex is conversations.

44:45

And I reached out to clubhouse

44:45

and asked them, are they

44:48

recording these rooms? And it seems that in the T's

44:50

and C's, they're not recording

44:53

the rooms, so they have no

44:53

way of moderating these rooms.

44:56

So yeah, he could put up a

44:56

nice, we're just going to

44:59

talk about flowers in this

44:59

room and then talk about

45:01

anything you want in the room. And I think it will only take

45:03

one example of where somebody.

45:07

Record because you can

45:07

record clubhouse forums

45:11

and it's defamatory or

45:11

it's racist or sexist.

45:15

And I think they'll have

45:15

a big problem, but we will

45:17

see I'm sure clubhouse. Now they're worth a unicorn.

45:20

$1 billion have enough

45:20

money to fix them.

45:24

Jamie, thank you so much. Thank you for telling

45:25

us all about sound club.

45:28

Awesome. Thanks Sam. Jamie on sound club, very

45:29

clever of them to launch

45:33

sound club on the day that

45:33

clubhouse was banned in China.

45:38

That's a very clever plan. I was listening to a

45:41

clubhouse room the other day.

45:43

And what somebody was saying

45:43

on there is they're actually

45:46

pointing to the company who's

45:46

Technology clubhouse uses.

45:50

And essentially it's just an

45:50

API that anyone can use and

45:53

anybody can gain access to

45:53

clubhouse or paying handsomely.

45:58

For the use of it. But it, it seems that actually

45:59

creating a clubhouse is

46:03

really easy and really simple. And the thing that's

46:05

holding clubhouse back

46:07

isn't necessarily their own

46:07

technology because frankly,

46:11

they don't have very much of it. It's the Technology in this.

46:14

Third-party API that they using,

46:14

but also that clearly shows

46:19

how easy it is for anybody

46:19

else to make another clubhouse,

46:22

because they can just use the

46:22

same open set of API APIs that

46:26

have been used to produce that. So testing stuff.

46:30

what was

46:30

interesting was sound on. Basically, it was only bought

46:32

a couple of weeks ago and they

46:34

flipped the whole product. And within 10 days they'd had

46:36

an Android client monetization

46:39

subscriptions, and that's

46:39

everything that everyone on

46:42

clubhouse has been waiting for.

46:44

Yes. Yes. there you go. People can code very

46:45

quickly if they're if

46:48

they're given a good rule,

46:49

a billion dollars, maybe

46:49

now, James, you've been busy

46:52

over the weekend, writing on

46:52

your other platform or medium,

46:56

you were talking about how to

46:56

get a billion new listeners.

47:00

Now that sounds exciting. How'd you get billion,

47:01

new listeners, James.

47:03

Yeah. So I was writing this on

47:03

my personal blog, which I put on medium for a number

47:05

of random reasons, but.

47:08

one of the things that I was

47:08

thinking about, and actually

47:12

it was after we were talking a

47:12

couple of weeks ago to Melissa

47:16

from Podcast festival in

47:16

Africa, she was talking about

47:20

the expense of data costs. And I actually went to work

47:22

out how much it will cost you

47:25

if you were to download this

47:25

American life in South Africa.

47:29

So if you look at the money

47:29

that you would pay in.

47:33

Data costs based on the

47:33

average wage in South Africa,

47:37

downloading one episode of this

47:37

American life would cost $3 52.

47:44

In data charges downloading

47:44

one episode of this podcast,

47:48

because we're a little

47:48

bit higher quality in

47:50

terms of audio bandwidth,

47:50

not in terms of content

47:53

would cost you even more. I was looking at that

47:54

and thinking there's probably an issue here.

47:58

Podcast index is working

47:58

on a new tag called

48:01

alternate enclosure. And what that essentially

48:03

allows you to do is it

48:05

allows you to add alternate

48:05

enclosures, alternate pieces

48:09

of audio oriented video

48:09

that your podcast app could

48:13

automatically switch to or

48:13

offer for you to switch to.

48:17

So if I'm on some very expensive

48:17

South African data, then

48:22

maybe it could offer a lower

48:22

bit rate a version of the

48:26

same show so that it costs me

48:26

less to download and listen.

48:30

Is new. video platforms have had various

48:31

versions of video options.

48:35

So whether you want to watch

48:35

it three 60, four, 87, 20

48:39

or higher, I don't get it.

48:42

Why can't we, or why haven't

48:42

we done this in podcasting

48:45

sooner? th the reason why is that

48:46

some people did do it.

48:49

So Stitcher ended up doing

48:49

this quite some time ago, and

48:52

I think Stitcher re encoded

48:52

everything to 48 K or even 32

48:56

K so that it worked in cars.

48:58

Cause back then most

48:58

mobile phones were 3g,

49:01

mobile phones and cars and

49:01

mobile phones didn't really

49:04

go together very well. And. Podcast people got really

49:06

upset because they really

49:10

cared about the audio

49:10

quality and they really cared

49:12

about getting the accurate

49:12

stats and everything else.

49:16

And so they said, no

49:16

Stitcher stop doing that.

49:19

And Stitcher ended up stopping doing that. Yeah.

49:21

I just wonder whether that's

49:21

a very Western view and a view

49:24

where, I noticed that yesterday

49:24

Virgin media in Ireland

49:29

basically said everybody now

49:29

gets unlimited mobile data.

49:34

Um we're not charging for

49:34

mobile data anymore, and

49:36

that's going on in Ireland. It's going on for T-Mobile

49:38

customers in the U S and

49:42

various other things as well. I just wonder whether that

49:43

is a very Western view.

49:46

And there are lots of people

49:46

in the developing world who

49:50

pay an incredible amount

49:50

for their data charges.

49:55

Once you incorporate their

49:55

average monthly wages into this,

49:59

why Podcast hosts, don't offer.

50:03

A low bit rate version

50:03

of their podcasts.

50:06

I really don't know as an alternative. So I'm not saying, this podcast

50:08

is in 192 kilobits stereo,

50:13

and I'm not saying that we

50:13

should be going out as a 32 K.

50:17

You know, mano MP3. But what I am saying is that

50:19

perhaps there should be an

50:22

alternative for people like

50:22

that to choose if they want to.

50:28

And that's what the alternate

50:28

enclosure is all about.

50:31

You wrote about a

50:32

company who's even gone

50:32

further below the line of

50:35

32 K. So this is a piece of

50:37

technology called Opus.

50:40

It's not new, actually. It's been going for

50:41

quite some time. I think that one

50:43

of the two major.

50:46

mobile phone operating

50:46

systems deals with it.

50:48

And I think unfortunately, it's

50:48

Android Opus will go all the

50:52

way down to six K, which is an

50:52

incredibly small amount of data.

50:58

And it sounds quite astonishing. So here's a little clip.

51:02

Hi, you're listening to. And we're here today with Rin

51:06

Hyatt. So I, I mean, that's not

51:07

fantastic quality, but it's

51:11

only six K and it's still

51:11

perfectly listable too.

51:14

It sounds like an am radio.

51:17

It did sound a bit like

51:17

the first transmission of

51:19

Sputnik, but anyway but it was,

51:21

yeah, the music did at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. I'll give you that.

51:23

I'll give you, whereas at the other end of the spectrum, James, there's a

51:25

Q code recording in Dolby.

51:29

Atmos. What's that one? Yeah.

51:31

So Q code is a big

51:31

Podcast company based out in.

51:35

Los Angeles. Steve Wilson, who used to

51:36

work at Apple podcasts is now

51:39

working there as well, which

51:39

is why all of their press

51:41

releases only mentioned Apple

51:41

podcasts and nobody else.

51:44

But anyway, they are apparently

51:44

recording all of their podcasts

51:47

in a format called Dolby

51:47

Atmos, which is surround sound.

51:51

no Podcast app yet supports it.

51:54

So probably. A, bet on the future there,

51:56

but it does show that there's

51:59

some sort of clever thinking

51:59

going on about audio quality.

52:03

iHeartRadio has also just

52:03

announced what they're

52:06

calling iHeart, 3d sound, but

52:06

the rest of us are calling.

52:11

Just binaural audio, which

52:11

is which has existed for

52:15

many years, but actually can

52:15

sound really good for drama,

52:19

podcasts and stuff like that. so lots of thinking about

52:21

audio quality, lots of

52:24

thinking about new formats

52:24

and new ways of listening.

52:28

And I think this new alternate

52:28

enclosure tags should

52:31

certainly help with that. That's

52:32

all I can think of is

52:32

recording a pantomime Podcast

52:35

and shouting it's behind

52:36

you. Well, that's what a

52:37

surround sound is. I'm sure.

52:40

best at if you say I

52:40

don't quite understand.

52:42

I remember. Lots of surround sound demos

52:43

when I was at the BBC and

52:47

surround sound was supposed

52:47

to be the next big thing, but

52:50

the surround sound demos were

52:50

always, you know, you'd walk

52:53

into a room and there'd be 30

52:53

speakers in the room and you'd

52:56

walk around and you think,

52:56

Oh , well, that's very nice.

52:58

You can hear the, you can hear

52:58

the elephant from over there

53:01

and the cheetah from over there. but I can't kind of

53:02

see how it works with.

53:05

Headphones, maybe I should read

53:05

up a little bit more if you

53:08

know, whether surround sound

53:08

works with headphones, then

53:12

please send us a comment to

53:12

questions at Podland dot news.

53:17

We'll get another voicemail. Sam if we try hard enough,

53:21

we try. Now that's it for

53:21

this week, I'm afraid.

53:24

So James, what's coming up

53:24

for you in Podland this month.

53:27

I'll be moderating a

53:27

session about the pandemic and

53:30

speaking about the future of

53:30

radio at the radio festival

53:34

in India, on world radio

53:34

day, which is on Saturday

53:37

happy world radio day. Sam. Thank you.

53:40

I will be under a table

53:40

plugging in my radio station.

53:43

So yes, I'll be thinking

53:43

about radio day.

53:46

How lovely. And that's it for this week.

53:49

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54:08

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