0:00

It's Friday , the 9th of February 2024

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.

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The last word in podcasting news

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. This is the Pod News

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Weekly Review with James Cridland

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and Sam Sethi .

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Sam Sethi is away this week , I'm James Cridland

0:16

, the editor of Pod News , and I'm Dave Jones

0:18

from the podcast index In the chapters . Today

0:21

, spotify almost makes money and

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no more exclusives Podcast search

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optimization . It's a thing

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, and is all the money going into

0:29

AI these days Plus ?

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hello . This is Darrell Pataglia from Triton

0:34

Digital . Later we will be talking

0:36

about the US podcast report

0:38

that was just released .

0:39

And I'm Claire Wake-Brown , and

0:42

later on I'll be talking about my

0:44

experience at PodFest .

0:46

They will . This podcast is sponsored

0:48

by Buzzsprout . Podcast hosting made easy with

0:50

easy and powerful tools , free

0:52

learning materials and remarkable customer

0:54

support .

0:55

And we're sponsored by a new show called why your

0:57

Podcast Isn't Growing , a show made

0:59

to help you get more new listeners

1:01

. They've just posted three ways to

1:04

increase the discoverability of your

1:06

podcast for faster growth probably

1:08

something that we'll talk about a little bit later . You

1:10

can find why your Podcast Isn't Growing

1:13

wherever you got this podcast . From

1:15

your daily newsletter , the Pod

1:17

News Weekly Review . Dave

1:20

, thank you so much for doing this . I really

1:22

appreciate it . What is the podcast

1:24

index for people who don't know ?

1:26

first of all , oh goodness , the podcast

1:28

index is primarily

1:30

a podcast directory , but I

1:33

guess the secondary function of it is to

1:35

give podcast apps a

1:38

back end when they don't have one . So back

1:41

ends for podcasting are expensive , got

1:43

to do a lot of aggregation , millions

1:45

of feeds , you know all that kind

1:47

of thing . And so we provide that for free

1:49

and we run on donations , value

1:51

for value model , and that's what we do .

1:53

Yeah , and you

1:55

, so you run that , and you also

1:58

I get the feeling

2:00

by accident Are

2:02

the head wrangler of podcasting

2:05

2.0 , which we'll talk

2:07

a little bit more about later

2:09

.

2:10

But it was a lot of things by accident ?

2:12

Yeah , was that a kind of a thing of

2:14

? I get the feeling that

2:16

the podcast index was a thing

2:18

that needed building and is a

2:20

great thing , and we use it for the

2:22

pod news , podcast pages and everything

2:25

else , but I get the feeling that you

2:27

weren't necessarily expecting to be also

2:29

looking after a brand new feature set

2:31

for new podcast apps .

2:33

No , I would say that's fair . Yeah , we

2:35

, we brought out the namespace because we

2:37

needed a couple of features

2:40

and then it just

2:42

became sort of a happy accident that

2:44

the namespace attracted all kinds of you

2:46

know once , once you have ideas for features , then

2:48

10 other people also have ideas because

2:51

things have been building up . So it

2:53

became just sort of a you know campfire

2:55

that everybody could gather around and throw their ideas

2:58

in the pot and before we know it we had

3:00

a burgeoning 2.0 namespace

3:02

and all kinds of things . And you

3:04

know , you , I don't , I don't simply

3:07

maintain it . You all , you're also a maintainer

3:09

on the , on the namespace , and you know

3:11

it's , it's a party .

3:12

Yeah , it is and , yes

3:14

, very much looking forward to . I don't know whether

3:16

or not I can announce it yet , but Daniel J

3:18

Lewis and I have been working on a thing , ideally

3:22

to help people like LTSK bar

3:24

understand a bit more about what podcasting

3:26

2.0 is all about , and

3:29

if I can announce it , then

3:31

I would be announcing that it's . There's

3:33

a website that you can now go and see . It's a podcast

3:35

toorg See what we did there

3:38

. Yeah , what

3:40

do you think of that ?

3:41

I like it . I also approve of this Todd

3:43

Cochran based shadiness

3:46

that you're using to hide whatever this is . Y'all

3:48

are building . This is . This is wonderful

3:50

.

3:51

Can't talk about it yet . Yes , so podcasting

3:54

2.0 . And it's a , it's

3:56

a , it's a website that

3:58

anybody can edit , which is nice on

4:01

the GitHub and yeah

4:03

, and it's been really good fun working on that

4:05

with Daniel . So , yes

4:07

, if it's not , if it's not announced by

4:09

now , then it , then this is me announcing it

4:11

.

4:12

I'm sure .

4:13

Daniel will be delighted about that .

4:14

I'm looking forward to it . He's got great design

4:16

chops . He's good , he does yeah he

4:18

does .

4:19

So I think I think you know we're still

4:21

working on it , but I think it should be a good thing . Shall

4:24

we get to the stories for this week . Why not start with the

4:26

heart of the podcast industrial

4:28

complex , dave ?

4:30

Let's do it . I want to call you

4:32

made a comment the other day that

4:34

said that our use , our use of the phrase

4:36

when I say our , I mean I'm

4:38

minding Adam's use of the phrase podcast industrial complex

4:40

is quote singularly

4:43

unhelpful . Yes , and I would . I

4:45

want to . I'm going to push back

4:47

on this and say we actually say lots of unhelpful things

4:49

.

4:51

This is not the only one , yeah

4:53

, yeah , well , fair enough yeah .

4:55

So , anyway , so it's all about Spotify . They

4:58

announced Joe Rogan has renewed

5:00

his agreement , but it's not exclusive anymore . Spotify

5:03

released their latest financial results . Yes , they did .

5:06

Total revenue growing at 16%

5:08

year on year to $3.9 billion . All

5:11

the company's figures met or exceeded expectations . So

5:14

, they said , the company

5:16

only lost $81 million in the

5:18

quarter , which apparently is rather better

5:20

than what was flagged in December . I don't know about you . I'm

5:23

not sure I could lose $81

5:25

million in a year alone

5:27

, in a quarter , but still , there we go . Daniel

5:31

Eck does , though , say that

5:33

the podcast business almost broke even in the quarter and

5:36

thinks it's good news for next year .

5:39

When we had our investor date last year , we outlined then podcasting was

5:42

a drag to the business but something

5:44

we were committed to turn around and

5:48

I'm pleased to say in Q4 , we were very close to break even

5:50

on that business , which gives

5:53

me a lot of confidence that as we get into 2024 , we will

5:55

achieve the full year profitability

5:58

target on podcasting . On

6:01

the top line side , we're still seeing healthy growth on engagement . That

6:05

engagement in terms means there'll

6:07

be more opportunities for us to monetize those engagement

6:10

hours . On

6:12

the bottom line , we have a double

6:14

down on the deals that worked and we've gotten out of a lot of the deals

6:17

that didn't work . And

6:19

that's the result you're now seeing with

6:21

the close to break even and that then will lead to a positive podcasting

6:24

business in 2024

6:26

.

6:28

I never really trust accountants .

6:29

Dave , close to break even , yeah I

6:31

mean there's so many ways to slice that yeah .

6:36

Whether it's that we're talking .

6:38

EBITDA , or we're talking profit , or operational

6:40

profit .

6:40

This is a

6:42

new term that I've , yeah , and I think it might be operational

6:44

profit , because I'll tell you what the amount of severance

6:49

payments that Spotify has been making recently can't have been

6:51

. I mean , that's

6:53

why they lost $81 million in the quarter , wasn't it ? It's

6:56

that they've actually got rid of an awful lot of people . I

6:59

learned yesterday , by the way , or I learned last week , that

7:01

the word redundancy is not understood

7:03

by Americans , so I have to use

7:05

the word layoff , or firing , or something like that .

7:08

It took me a while to figure out what you meant by redundancy

7:10

. It makes sense in retrospect

7:13

, but no , that is not an American term at all . Layoffs

7:17

, or you just got fired . Yeah , that's pretty

7:19

much it .

7:20

Yeah , that's pretty well it . Danny

7:22

Alec also went into detail about the new deals

7:24

that they've made with podcasters , why they

7:26

don't do exclusives anymore

7:29

not that they really did , anyway , he

7:31

reckons .

7:32

Generally speaking , we had multiple strategies in

7:34

podcasting . It wasn't just all about exclusivities

7:37

, even if that got most of the press

7:39

headlines , and what we've been able to see

7:41

here is , as we've been learning over these past

7:43

few years , is that while some of these

7:45

exclusivity deals worked , generally

7:48

it wasn't aligned with what the creator wanted . The

7:50

creator wants to have broader

7:52

audience and I feel like with

7:54

these new deals that we've

7:56

been making for most of 2023

7:58

, we are in a position where

8:00

we're actually better aligned with the creator . We

8:03

can both deliver the growth rate

8:05

and we are equally incentivized

8:07

to drive audience

8:09

growth and , of course , then

8:11

also drive revenue growth , because

8:13

we both share in that upside . Today , spotify

8:16

is , in many cases , the number

8:18

one podcasting player already , so exclusivity

8:21

makes sense when you're the smaller playing trying

8:23

to gain scale . When you're the bigger player

8:25

, the additional value

8:27

of the exclusivity is far smaller

8:30

than it is about being

8:32

aligned , and it feels also that

8:34

, from a values point of view , this is better aligned

8:36

with who we are at Spotify , too .

8:38

Now , if I had Adam Curry's little

8:40

bell , I think I'd

8:42

be ringing it a little bit in the middle of that , because

8:45

there's quite a lot . I think there that makes a

8:47

little bit of sense . Dave , I don't know

8:49

what you think , dave Curry , yeah , I think we're seeing

8:51

, as far as the exclusivity goes .

8:54

I don't think this is unique to podcasting , I

8:56

think this is across the board . I

8:59

think we're seeing a breakdown of exclusivity

9:02

as a business model

9:04

. I think when the

9:06

easy money dries up and

9:08

funds are harder to raise , I think you

9:10

do have to broaden

9:14

your scope , because they

9:17

just take video games , for instance and we were seeing Microsoft

9:19

just announcing that they're going to bring all of

9:22

their Bethesda games

9:25

to the PlayStation Network

9:27

, which is exactly opposite

9:29

of what they said when they bought the company and

9:32

I think just across the tech industry we're

9:34

seeing a breakdown of exclusivity

9:37

as a growth mechanic , because

9:39

growth is not the primary

9:42

factor anymore , now it's profitability , and

9:46

so if it's all about hunkering down and making

9:48

a profit , then exclusivity

9:51

reducing your total audience size

9:53

it's kind of hard to justify

9:55

that . It doesn't make a lot of sense , dave .

9:57

Curry . Yeah , I mean , I guess from his point

9:59

of view , he's basically saying you need exclusivity

10:01

if you're a small player in the market

10:03

, but you don't if you're the size

10:06

of Spotify . Now , now he's saying that

10:08

Spotify

10:10

is , in many cases , the number one podcasting

10:12

player already Posted by people , not by

10:14

downloads . That

10:16

much we can certainly say

10:18

. But I thought it was interesting that literally

10:21

as soon as Spotify released their figures

10:24

, you saw Anil

10:27

Dash posting a blog post in

10:30

praise of OpenRSS and saying

10:32

that OpenRSS is the best thing ever . Ani

10:35

Smith at TDM writing that there should

10:37

be something to be learned from RSS's

10:39

podcast success by the rest of the media

10:41

too . All of a sudden , everybody's going oh

10:44

RSS , it's a fantastic thing . Where's

10:47

this been for the last ?

10:48

20 years , dave Curry . Yeah , it's been right here .

10:51

Ani Smith , you know it's just I don't know . I

10:55

find it interesting that all of a sudden

10:57

we're seeing a bunch of people saying no

10:59

, rss is a good thing . Are

11:02

you seeing that too ?

11:04

Dave Curry . Oh , yeah , for sure . There's

11:06

this concurrent thing

11:08

that's happening that's beyond just podcasting

11:11

, which is so ? Return to

11:13

blogs . I'm sure you've noticed

11:15

this as well . I think you yourself

11:17

left medium right . You went back to your

11:19

own self-hosted blog . There's

11:22

Taylor Lawrence , the

11:25

journalist . She was

11:27

blasting out some stuff today about podcasting

11:30

and RSS being an open system

11:32

. There's this big . I think there's just a

11:34

general consensus

11:36

of it's time

11:38

to leave some of these platforms . It's

11:40

the platforms aren't the main

11:42

driver . They don't need to be Because

11:46

, again , you can exclude with exclusivity

11:48

. You have to fuel that a lot of times by debt

11:50

, because

11:53

you can't . The creator is the one

11:55

that is going to get hurt

11:57

with an exclusive deal because

11:59

you slash their audience in half , so you have

12:01

to make up for that by promising them

12:03

more money . If you can't get the money

12:05

, you can't do the deal . It's

12:08

one of those things where we've seen a lot

12:10

of creators tell horror stories

12:12

about going into an exclusive contract

12:14

with Spotify , losing most

12:16

of their audience , then being jettisoned about

12:18

. The contract gets killed . Now

12:20

all their subscribers are gone when they go back to open RSS

12:22

and they have to start from scratch . So

12:25

I think the whole thing is just very , very

12:28

dicey , and people feel more comfortable when they can

12:30

perhaps have a smaller listener

12:33

or reader base but have broader

12:35

reach .

12:38

There was talk and I tried to get the numbers

12:40

but I couldn't find the numbers but there was talk

12:42

that Brené Brown , when she moved

12:44

as an exclusive to Spotify

12:47

, all of a sudden loads of people stopped

12:49

buying her books because she wasn't getting the

12:51

influence that she used to get on

12:53

open podcasting , and

12:56

I think that there's definitely something there . And

12:59

X saying there that creators

13:01

want a broader audience , but

13:04

also sounding as if he's fixed the deals

13:06

so that unless

13:08

you grow the audience , unless you as

13:11

a podcaster deliver the revenue

13:13

, then you don't get your share of the

13:15

Spotify money either , and I think

13:17

that's an interesting thing to end up per seing . So

13:21

maybe they've rather redrawn

13:24

how their deals

13:26

work so that podcasters have

13:28

to work rather harder .

13:30

Well , you just reported today about

13:33

Rogan coming to Anchor , not Megaphone

13:35

. Yeah , I thought that was pretty interesting

13:37

.

13:38

I thought that was really interesting . Of course , it's called

13:40

Spotify for podcasters . Now , that's

13:42

right .

13:42

Yeah .

13:45

But I thought that was really interesting

13:47

. I

13:50

mean , I asked Spotify to comment

13:52

and they haven't . But I think from

13:55

my point of view I mean , megaphone

13:58

is the enterprise podcast host right

14:00

, they've got dynamic ad

14:02

insertion , they've got attribution , they've got demos

14:04

, they've got all of this kind of stuff . Spotify

14:06

for podcasting or Anchor has none

14:09

of that . None , you

14:11

know , I

14:13

mean , spotify for podcasters serves creators

14:15

of all sizes , but yeah

14:18

, Do you think Rogan had ?

14:19

do you think Joe had to download the Spotify for podcast

14:21

app and do the registration

14:24

process and all that stuff ?

14:26

I'm sure that he's done that . I wonder whether that's

14:28

because , do you think , that Megaphone

14:31

deals with Spotify video and

14:33

maybe Anchor doesn't deal

14:35

with Spotify video and no , the other

14:37

way around . So Anchor , I think is

14:39

the only one that deals with Spotify video and

14:42

Megaphone . Perhaps doesn't , I don't know .

14:44

I don't really think that's an interesting take . That's

14:47

an interesting take because , of course you know being running the

14:49

index . I looked at the feed

14:51

and I'm like , is this a special anchor feed

14:53

? Is this something ? I mean the biggest

14:55

, you know the big , not just the biggest podcasts

14:57

in the world , but the biggest you

14:59

know sort of media thing

15:02

in the world or one of them .

15:03

Yeah .

15:04

As far as listeners , I mean it's huge . Is

15:06

there some sort of special ? I know it's just a normal anchor

15:09

URL . It

15:12

looks like you know , like you might be sandwiched between

15:14

you know , a podcast of 30

15:16

second fart noises and

15:18

somebody reading their high school term paper . I mean it's just

15:20

like it's like he just got a random Spotify

15:23

for podcasters URL , so

15:25

it's just odd . And the other

15:27

thing it tells me is , like

15:30

first party data Is

15:33

that whole concept kind of dead ? Now Can

15:37

we just say that downloads

15:39

are good enough and

15:42

the whole idea of streaming

15:45

and first-party data as being just

15:47

the treasure

15:49

chest of advertising dollars

15:51

is probably just not that true .

15:54

Well , I suppose that they're still getting first-party

15:57

data from

15:59

Spotify for podcasters

16:01

, I guess Interestingly

16:05

so . There's two interesting things

16:07

, I think about the anchor thing . Firstly

16:09

, they are

16:11

so anchor hosts still on

16:14

Amazon CloudFront and

16:17

the URL of the enclosure

16:19

still includes

16:23

the actual

16:25

URL of the MP3 itself .

16:28

How big is that bill , by the way ?

16:30

Yeah , how big is that bill Exactly

16:32

? That must be a massive , great big thing

16:34

. So

16:36

that's one thing . But also , I

16:39

thought the anchor used to make everything

16:41

in

16:43

AAC rather than MP3

16:46

, but these files are most definitely in

16:48

MP3 now , so clearly there's been

16:50

a change there somewhere . But

16:53

yeah , now I find it really interesting

16:56

that they've gone to move to

16:58

anchor rather than to

17:00

megaphone . I'm

17:03

really curious as to why

17:05

that is .

17:07

You know , it also tells me , james , that

17:10

this whole move , the contract , everything

17:12

, I feel like it tells

17:14

me that they can't make

17:16

money in podcasting without him . If

17:21

it takes this deal to

17:23

get to break even

17:25

, then and he's clearly

17:27

driving a huge

17:29

portion of revenue of

17:32

ad buys across all of

17:34

Spotify that this tells

17:36

me that they could not let him

17:38

go , or else it would have been just a complete disaster

17:41

.

17:42

Well , and they did say something to

17:45

us the other day that the podcast

17:47

saw a 45% increase in revenue

17:49

last year . So

17:52

it's making money , but it's

17:54

making even more money now . So

17:56

, yeah , so

17:58

I find the whole thing fascinating

18:00

, so really interesting to see .

18:03

Well , moving on , Triton Digital

18:05

released their US

18:07

podcast report from 2023 with

18:09

lots of data about podcasting last

18:11

year .

18:12

Yes , and interestingly , given what we've just been

18:14

talking about , they say that

18:16

Apple podcasts gets 45%

18:18

of all episode downloads and Spotify just

18:20

gets 15% . I wonder

18:22

how many of those are auto downloads

18:25

, though Darrell Bataglia should know

18:27

a thing or two about what they found . He's SVP

18:30

of measurement products and strategy

18:32

for Triton Digital .

18:33

Triton Digital has been in the

18:36

digital audio and podcast space

18:38

for over 15 years

18:40

. We offer services

18:42

across streaming audio as well as podcasting

18:45

. In podcasting , we

18:47

have a hosting platform called On Me Studio

18:49

to help you manage and distribute your

18:51

content . We have a full

18:54

ad tech stack to help publishers

18:56

monetize their advertising

18:58

, and we have measurement and

19:00

analytic services to better understand

19:02

the audience for podcasts and that's

19:05

where I come in is leading our measurement

19:07

strategy in products .

19:08

So you released the US podcast

19:11

report for 2023 . That's

19:13

got data from On Me Studio in

19:15

it , from Triton Podcast Metrics

19:17

, from Demos , plus Some really good

19:19

data in there . What were the big findings

19:21

from your point of view ?

19:23

The biggest finding , I think always

19:25

, is podcast growing

19:27

and what we found is it's

19:29

grown each of the last two years . We

19:31

computed to a 12% growth

19:34

in monthly podcast listeners over

19:36

the last two years and

19:38

what we saw was that came across

19:41

all segments of the population

19:43

, different age groups , male , female

19:46

. We really saw a broadening of

19:48

the audience while podcasting

19:50

over indexes for a younger

19:52

audience , for a little

19:54

bit more male audience , we actually

19:57

saw more growth from the

19:59

over 55 group in

20:02

the United States and more

20:04

growth from females . So we're seeing a broadening

20:06

of the audience and we're really seeing that

20:08

podcasting appeals to everyone and

20:11

it , I think , really

20:14

is exciting for the future

20:16

that the podcast audience can continue to

20:18

grow and there's really no ceiling that it can

20:20

. Obviously there's all different types of podcasts

20:22

and it can appeal to all

20:25

different types of people .

20:26

Indeed , it's super exciting . I wonder whether

20:28

your report said anything

20:31

about YouTube . It's certainly

20:33

all of the talk of the podcast industry

20:36

over the last year .

20:37

It did . We did a

20:39

pretty in-depth comparison of

20:41

YouTube and Apple podcasts

20:44

and Spotify as well . What

20:47

we saw is that YouTube

20:49

is the number one

20:51

platform that people say

20:53

they use the most to consume podcasts

20:56

. 33.5%

20:58

of monthly podcast

21:00

listeners said they use YouTube

21:02

the most , and that

21:04

has been growing . 47%

21:07

of their listeners said they started consuming podcasts

21:10

in the last year , so a lot of the

21:12

new listeners are coming from

21:14

them . But we also saw a lot of differences

21:17

in the demographics of the

21:19

audience for YouTube as

21:21

compared to Apple podcasts

21:23

and Spotify .

21:24

Yeah , I was going to ask you about that because and

21:27

this is data from demos plus and

21:29

some really interesting data about the

21:31

demographics of the various platforms so

21:33

Spotify listeners being younger , Apple

21:35

listeners being richer , YouTube

21:38

listeners being more male and

21:40

a bit less money what should we

21:43

learn from that for podcasting

21:45

?

21:46

I think it helps with

21:48

distribution strategies

21:50

. I think it helps to understand

21:53

who your audience is and

21:56

help to inform your content strategies

21:59

and help to inform your advertising strategies

22:01

as well , to understand more about

22:03

not

22:05

only who your listeners are as a whole , which demos

22:08

plus helps to do , but to understand

22:10

some of the differences amongst platforms .

22:13

Yeah , and I guess it also shows

22:15

some of the benefits of Triton podcast metrics

22:17

in that the data that you get from Spotify is

22:19

only data of Spotify

22:22

listeners and similarly , the data that you

22:24

get from Apple is only from Apple listeners and they're

22:26

not necessarily the same

22:28

types of people , are they ?

22:30

No , they're not . So , as you mentioned

22:32

YouTube , really all of those

22:34

platforms are younger

22:36

than the general population . However

22:39

, we saw that Spotify

22:41

was the youngest , whereas YouTube

22:44

was a little bit older . We

22:46

saw Apple podcasts was more female

22:49

, while YouTube was

22:51

more male . Differences

22:53

in income as well . Apple podcast

22:56

audience on average was

22:58

at a higher income

23:01

. So there are certainly differences amongst those

23:03

platforms which were interesting to

23:05

learn more about .

23:06

Yeah , so fascinating bits of

23:08

data . The other two bits that I

23:10

saw which I found interesting Firstly

23:12

, the top shows by purchase

23:14

intent . So , and

23:17

again I'm getting that this is from demos plus as

23:19

well . So if , for example

23:21

, you want to reach shows listened

23:25

to by people who are interested in switching

23:27

their wireless provider , which seems very niche

23:29

thing , then apparently

23:32

Wow in the world , or fantasy football

23:34

today are two big

23:36

shows for that

23:38

. This is really focused

23:41

information . Isn't it really useful for

23:43

for advertisers as well ?

23:45

Right . With our podcast metrics demos

23:47

plus solution , we're able to

23:50

understand the profile

23:52

of the audience across podcasts

23:54

of all sizes . So aging

23:56

gender , other demographic insights

23:59

, their purchase behaviors

24:01

and intent , their political affiliation

24:03

, their other

24:05

media usage , and so there's a wide

24:08

variety of purchase intent data and

24:10

different audience

24:14

segments are important for different advertisers

24:16

. So if you are a wireless

24:19

provider , you definitely want

24:21

to advertising shows that will do

24:23

a good job of reaching people who are in the market

24:25

to switch wireless providers . And

24:28

in the report , first

24:30

of all , we highlighted a few examples of

24:32

different genres at the genre level , but

24:35

within our our ranker

24:37

of the top 100 shows for the year , we

24:41

also highlighted for different audience

24:43

segments and different purchase intents and demographics

24:46

, what were the top three shows that

24:48

over index the most

24:50

for those segments or would reach that audience

24:52

most efficiently ?

24:53

Yeah , and I think particularly helpful for an

24:55

election year , which of course it is . I wonder

24:58

if anybody spotted this yet in the

25:00

US . Particularly

25:03

useful in terms of that , because being

25:05

able to focus on specific

25:07

age ranges

25:09

and also what , which

25:12

ways people are going to vote as well . Absolutely

25:14

.

25:15

It's not surprising , of course , that

25:18

different types of podcasts

25:21

that have political content are

25:23

going to be geared towards a

25:25

certain political affiliation

25:28

. That part's not surprising , but it

25:30

provides that insight for podcasts of

25:33

all genres and

25:35

definitely helps with political

25:38

candidates and their advertising campaigns and

25:40

determining what podcasts

25:42

could be a fit for them .

25:43

Yeah , and I particularly . You know it's

25:46

always nice seeing data where you

25:48

can go OK , that makes perfect

25:50

sense . For example , the

25:52

podcast listens to buy

25:55

people with the most amount of household

25:57

income . Podcasts like Planet

25:59

Money , or how I built this with Guy

26:01

Raz . I mean that that makes perfect sense , doesn't

26:03

it ? It's really nice seeing actually data

26:05

that you go . Yeah , that that's absolutely right

26:08

.

26:08

Right . I mean , even if they know that this

26:10

is the case because of the subject matter

26:12

of their podcast , have actual data

26:14

with actual numbers . That is

26:16

third party proof of

26:19

the case and helps quantify . It is

26:21

a big help for them as they try and find

26:24

advertisers or partners for their

26:26

shows .

26:26

So what do you think that the

26:29

US podcast report tells

26:31

the podcast industry ? What should we take

26:34

away from that ?

26:35

Better insight into who

26:37

the audience is and how

26:39

that differs across genres , across

26:41

shows , across platforms , with

26:44

download measurement . That data doesn't

26:46

you mentioned . Like sure , like Spotify can

26:48

provide it for their audience to

26:50

a certain extent maybe not to

26:52

the same level of depth , but so I think

26:54

that's been a

26:56

gap in the past , for the industry is really

26:58

understanding who the audience is and how

27:00

it differs across the whole , the whole landscape

27:03

, and so that's really a big part

27:05

of it is to shed insight into

27:07

that , share insights into that , and

27:09

a lot

27:12

of it is more at the aggregate

27:14

level , but we provide this

27:16

type of data to our clients at the individual

27:18

show level or for any aggregation of

27:20

shows as well .

27:21

So the report is free . Where can people get

27:24

hold of it ?

27:24

They can go to TraytonRankerscom

27:27

. On there you can see our

27:29

podcast rankers , which are monthly in every

27:31

country . But there's a link

27:33

below under the resource section to be able

27:36

to download the report . It's

27:38

about 30 plus pages of

27:40

all different insights that hopefully

27:43

people will find really useful , and

27:45

I know the team here has put a lot of work into it , so

27:47

we're excited to put it out there .

27:49

Yeah , super helpful stuff . It's really good to talk

27:51

to my friends at TraytonDarrell . Thank you

27:53

so much for your time today .

27:54

Thank you , james , appreciate it . That

27:57

was Darrell Bataglia from Trayton Digital

27:59

.

27:59

There's some really interesting data in there , and

28:01

interesting data

28:04

both from Omni Studio and

28:06

from their own enterprise podcasting

28:08

host , but also from the Trayton

28:11

Rankers as well around the

28:13

world as well . I always

28:15

find it really good when large

28:17

podcast companies do that kind of thing .

28:19

Dave , you know I read through some of the

28:21

report and there's

28:23

some just as usual , some

28:25

of this stuff . I find it hard

28:27

to reconcile some of the things in the

28:29

report because they say in

28:31

there that you've

28:34

got that huge

28:37

advantage

28:39

that Apple has over Spotify

28:41

, but then in

28:43

the other section where

28:45

they do the survey , it

28:47

says Apple's at 15% when

28:49

they say the question was which platform

28:52

do you use most often to listen to podcasts ? And

28:54

the respondent said that Apple's 15%

28:57

, Spotify 25 .

28:59

Yeah , and YouTube even more .

29:01

Yeah , I'm not sure I'm following . The

29:05

survey says one thing , the downloads , I guess

29:07

, or the trackers , say a different thing . I'm not sure how

29:09

to reconcile those two .

29:10

I have never understood that and it's really difficult to

29:13

report on it because you're there going

29:15

. I mean , I guess you can turn around and

29:17

say the podcast

29:21

app that people are most using

29:23

it doesn't necessarily mean

29:25

that that's the app which is delivering the most amount

29:27

of downloads . But

29:30

I also wonder whether or not it's a deal about

29:32

Apple's automated downloads as well

29:34

, and I wonder what

29:36

the story is there , and I would love

29:38

to dive more deeply into

29:41

what's actually automated

29:43

and what isn't , and maybe that's something that OP3

29:46

can actually help us with .

29:48

Yeah , and the other thing it talked about was the long

29:50

tail of podcasting . That is , 76%

29:53

of podcasts and

29:56

that's a number that people have

29:58

been just licking their chops to try to monetize

30:00

for so long , and

30:02

I'm just not sure it's doable . I'm

30:06

sure you can break off some of that with programmatic type

30:08

advertising , but when we

30:10

see the huge margins of error

30:13

, like when such a big drop when Apple

30:15

downloads change their Apple

30:17

podcast chains or download algorithm , it's

30:20

just when that kind of swing

30:22

can happen . If it happens on a million

30:24

downloads , on a show with a million downloads

30:27

, 20% is one thing , 20%

30:29

on a show with 10,000 downloads is something

30:31

completely different , and so

30:33

I'm not sure that those that

30:36

that long tail can can ever be , because

30:38

it's just not nobody . It

30:40

seems like nobody wants that .

30:42

Yeah .

30:42

Yeah , as far as the ad buyers .

30:45

No , I'm fascinated to . You

30:48

know , I'm really interested to find out how

30:50

many more of the Apple downloads

30:52

numbers are actually automated

30:54

and what that means for the industry . Because

30:57

I mean , you know , talking

31:00

with some people in the podcast

31:03

industrial complex about their

31:05

downloads and things you can

31:07

, you know , you can see that

31:09

there's some fear in their eyes when

31:11

, when they're saying you know how's it , how's

31:13

it impacted you , and they're going , oh , it's

31:15

fine . Really , you know

31:17

, yeah , right , right . They're

31:19

really kind of . You know , I mean I've seen some

31:21

, I've seen some of the numbers , and some of the numbers I

31:23

mean there are some large , large

31:26

podcast publishers which are down

31:28

30% , 40% and

31:32

they'll be having to pay , make goods for

31:34

that . They'll be having to , you know , go

31:36

back to their advertisers and saying , well

31:38

, yeah , but this isn't real numbers . And

31:40

then you've got Todd saying , yeah , there's been no change

31:43

at all . I'm not sure , I don't know it's

31:46

, it's just a weird , a weird one . But

31:48

then you see , you know numbers from

31:51

Buzzsprout as

31:53

an example , where Spotify has

31:55

been down significantly , but that

31:57

doesn't appear to be the case

31:59

on some other podcast platforms

32:01

. So I'm you know , it's just really hard

32:03

to report on , I think .

32:04

Yeah , the Spotify number being down , that

32:07

that has been a weird one , because you

32:09

know , I'm not , I'm not sure and you know we

32:12

, we saw and you published

32:14

the index of stats of of

32:17

podcasts that publish new episodes

32:19

and the count , the total count on that . You

32:22

know we saw that going down , down , down , down , down

32:24

through most of 2023 . And

32:26

then it sort of hit bottom around the early , around

32:28

early January , and now

32:30

it's just been on this slow march up

32:33

and so we've had this nice , you

32:35

know , every , it seems like every week it's one

32:37

and a half percent , two percent up and

32:39

these things are . Things

32:42

are improving and shows are producing

32:44

more episodes now

32:46

and we've seen this nice little gradual

32:48

recovery in the

32:51

total overall number of shows that are producing

32:53

new episodes . And I think

32:55

you're right , the it is hard

32:57

to make this , to

33:00

translate these kinds of things into money

33:02

, because I did . I did notice that that

33:05

in the Trident Report they listed the top 20

33:07

podcasts overall in

33:10

their in their rankings and NPR

33:12

has six of the shows in the top 20 , but they

33:15

laid off like almost the entire podcast

33:17

group so clearly these

33:19

things don't mate you know ?

33:22

No , no , exactly , and of course their

33:24

numbers are . You

33:26

know , depending on which numbers you look at , their

33:28

numbers are participating

33:30

publishers only , which is always

33:32

a always a thing , isn't it ? But

33:35

yeah , no , some really interesting numbers coming

33:38

out of that . And talking about really

33:40

interesting numbers , lots of very

33:42

large numbers to do with AI

33:45

and fundraising .

33:46

Yeah , Lots of AI companies are getting

33:48

fun . Everybody's getting money

33:50

. Podcastle got 13 and a half million

33:52

. Last week we heard from Wondercraft

33:55

who got three million . Dexa raised six

33:57

million . Audio stack

33:59

raised 3.2 million . I mean , everybody's

34:01

just getting a piece of the action .

34:03

Yeah , it's just like so much money

34:05

. It seems that in order for

34:07

you to make a ton of cash

34:09

in terms of funding , all you have

34:11

to do is say AI . So

34:13

I'm wondering , obviously , when , when

34:16

podcast index is going to be doing some AI

34:19

? You already use AI , right ?

34:21

Sure , yeah , yeah Never .

34:23

And machine learning as well , which was last year's

34:25

catchphrase , wasn't it Right ?

34:27

Yeah , and blockchain the year before that

34:29

, oh , yeah , yeah , yeah , robotic

34:32

process automation , this it just keeps

34:34

going back and back and back . What

34:37

an so the odd narrative

34:40

of

34:42

AI being able to fix

34:44

podcast search

34:47

and discovery and that kind of that's

34:50

a new one on me . I don't see

34:52

how that's possible . But

34:54

people , now things have changed . It seems

34:56

like people have gone from

34:59

podcast , from

35:01

AI as podcast improvement

35:03

, to AI as

35:05

podcast search and discovery

35:07

, and I'm not sure how

35:09

that . I don't know how to

35:11

make that leap , but I guess we'll see what people

35:13

come up with .

35:14

Yeah , I think you know . I mean AI is being used

35:17

an awful lot . Our sponsor , buzzsprout , has

35:19

AI that will

35:22

generate , you know , entire titles

35:24

and episode show notes and everything else

35:26

. If I really wanted to , the

35:29

Dexa one is interesting . So Dexa

35:31

is essentially looking

35:35

at the entire contents of

35:37

your podcast back

35:39

catalog and

35:42

although they've just announced something

35:44

with with Huberman lab

35:47

I don't even know if that's how you

35:49

pronounce it Huberman , huberman , I

35:51

think so yeah , that's not right yeah . Well

35:56

, so they've just announced that , but they've

35:58

actually had one with Jordan Harbinger for

36:00

quite some time . If you want to

36:02

take a peek at that , it's Jordan Dexa

36:04

AI , and

36:07

you know that's a fascinating thing in that

36:09

you go into this thing . You can

36:11

ask Jordan Harbinger anything

36:14

you want , about anything that he might

36:16

have spoken about , and it comes back

36:18

with you know information on

36:21

you know some of his guests , information on

36:24

shows to go and have a listen to , but

36:26

also information on you know

36:28

on the advertisers you know you can go in and you

36:30

can ask for an athletic greens . You

36:33

know discount code .

36:35

That's the way you go . Now

36:39

, this , this kind of thing I can see . You know there's

36:41

there's a lot of AI , just

36:44

hype cycle trash that's out there , but

36:46

these that's that's actually a really cool

36:49

thing and I can see that within . If

36:52

you take a back catalog of a particular podcast

36:54

and say , okay , look , I've , I've done

36:56

900 episodes

36:59

of a podcast , I don't even remember

37:01

what I said in all of these

37:03

and I don't remember stories

37:05

that we've gone over and clips

37:07

that we've played and all these . If

37:09

you can pump all those transcripts and all that

37:11

data into a large language

37:13

model and get out something

37:16

that's easy to search and is pro

37:18

, even proactive , and telling you when

37:21

you're , as you're , prepping for the show , oh

37:23

you've , you know , oh , you tie , you just typed

37:25

this word into your show notes . Well

37:27

, here you've talked about this six shows ago

37:29

. I can see that now that's valuable

37:31

, that I could some of these , and that's the complicated

37:34

. I think that's the complex thing around AI in

37:36

general is that it's hard

37:38

right now because the hype cycle is

37:40

just so fire that

37:42

it's it's so difficult to figure out

37:44

which which of these things is

37:46

actually a useful product and which one

37:48

is just somebody trying to jump on the bandwagon

37:51

.

37:51

Yeah , it's just , it's just nonsense . Yeah

37:54

, yeah . So Audio Stack raising 3.2

37:56

million . They are the people who do automated

37:59

voices , and I think I used one

38:01

of the automated voices a couple of weeks ago with

38:05

and it was an , it was an Australian

38:08

ad and

38:11

you know , and the automated voice , to be honest , sounded

38:13

pretty good . You know , if you , if you want to

38:16

make automated ads that

38:18

essentially promote you

38:21

know that essentially promote , you

38:23

know , news headlines and stuff like that , then

38:25

that's quite a nice , that's quite a

38:27

nice idea , I think . But

38:30

you know , let me play , let

38:32

me play a little clip of one here . Many

38:34

Australian cities are bracing for their hottest

38:36

days in years , including Western Sydney

38:38

, as experts warn of dangerous conditions

38:41

in some areas . Now , that's a completely

38:43

automatic voice , but you wouldn't . I

38:46

don't think I would have guessed that that was an automatic voice

38:48

.

38:50

No , I wouldn't have picked that out , I

38:52

think , if I heard it long enough , if there

38:54

was enough , if it kept going probably

38:57

you'd start to get suspicious .

38:59

Yeah , but the ad is

39:01

only a 30 second thing and it's

39:03

basically that's the headline

39:05

. I mean , if that was a headline , go

39:08

and find out more at this website . So you

39:10

know , I can see that there's something there , but

39:13

still , but yes , whether or not

39:15

that'll help with podcast discovery

39:17

, who knows . But Oshah

39:20

, our French friends have

39:22

come up with something clever .

39:24

Yeah , they've , let's see

39:26

, they've launched a podcast search optimization

39:29

control panel . The tools aimed at ensuring

39:31

its podcasts reach the number one slot

39:33

in Apple podcasts and Spotify search results

39:36

.

39:36

Hmm , what do you think of that running a podcast

39:40

index yourself ?

39:43

I think search within podcasting

39:45

is incredibly difficult

39:48

for so many reasons

39:50

, and the number one reason with

39:52

search and audio it

39:55

doesn't matter if you have a transcript or not . Having

39:58

the text really doesn't help you that

40:01

much Really . So if we

40:03

, if we look at it will depends

40:05

on what you're trying to find . So sometimes

40:07

having the text of all the episodes

40:09

and everything can make makes the job even

40:11

worse Because the

40:14

the butte . So let's take search

40:16

, sort of the pinnacle of search that we all

40:18

think of , and that's Google . The

40:20

magic of Google is the backlink

40:23

, is measuring

40:25

the number of inbound links to

40:28

a page in order to rank the

40:30

results . Searching

40:32

doesn't have anything like that . You

40:35

can't . There's no linkage between

40:37

a podcast and

40:40

another podcast or a podcast

40:42

and some general

40:44

topic . There's just

40:46

not . There's no way to measure those

40:49

because without page rank , google

40:51

Google search is not what

40:54

it is . That's the secret sauce . It

40:56

says you don't have like anything that's sort of like

40:58

an analogous to that within podcasting

41:00

. You just have to go purely based

41:03

on just text , and there's

41:05

so much text out there that

41:07

it just pollutes everything down to nothing

41:10

. It's it's an odd

41:12

narrative to say that you could boost

41:15

, you know , boost search

41:17

results into the number one slot in

41:19

Apple and Spotify . That's

41:22

, and I'm wondering what . I

41:24

wonder what magic sauce they're using to make that

41:26

happen .

41:26

I mean , I think quite a lot of . It is just that most podcasts

41:29

are pretty bad at . They're

41:31

the metadata that goes with them , you know , and the

41:33

amount of I mean

41:35

Joe Rogan , for example . Joe Rogan's

41:38

entire Description

41:41

in the in

41:44

the the description field is

41:46

the official Joe Rogan podcast

41:48

. I think , I think that's

41:50

it . I mean , it used to be . It used

41:52

to be ramblings from a guy and minds , which

41:54

made even less sense .

41:55

But In

41:58

fairness . In fairness , I'm not sure how

42:00

you would explain this show like I got . It

42:02

interviews other people . Yes , it's

42:04

not a whole lot to say about it . It's pretty random

42:06

, yeah no , exactly , exactly .

42:08

So , you know , and I I wonder

42:10

whether , I wonder whether it's

42:13

it's an issue of ? Yeah

42:16

, I mean , you know , it's an issue of just

42:18

the , the metadata which is out

42:20

there , the official podcast of comedian

42:23

Joe Rogan , that's literally all

42:25

it's . So

42:28

yeah , so . You

42:30

know . So maybe you know , maybe

42:32

there's something that I'd not thought about back

42:34

links and things because of course , as

42:37

you so rightly say , there isn't . There

42:39

are no back links , because there's a back link

42:41

, maybe , to the Apple podcasts page . Now

42:43

there's a back link to the Spotify page

42:45

, but there's a back link to the website and

42:48

there's a back link to the other website , to his new

42:50

anchor website , which

42:52

looks , which looks , entertaining . So

42:54

, yeah , so I find

42:56

that's a really interesting

42:59

, interesting point . Hence why

43:01

you know , a discovery mechanism Like

43:04

pod role and things like that are really

43:06

interesting and useful and helpful . I was talking

43:08

with the folks from RSS and they promised

43:11

me pod role within the next couple of months

43:13

.

43:14

So yeah , I want to put it on our on

43:17

our homepage , on the index it's it's time

43:19

to move off the completely useless

43:21

, not helpful to anybody , random

43:23

, oh yeah .

43:24

The right which is usually , which is usually a

43:26

sermon isn't it ?

43:27

It's always , always sermon audiocom

43:30

. Yeah , so yeah

43:32

, yeah , so is it is . Osha is

43:34

. Are they ? Are they just fixing

43:36

show notes and description fields ? Is

43:38

that primarily what this is ?

43:41

I think it is Making

43:43

sure that you are using the right keywords

43:46

in the right Description

43:48

and show notes and everything else that

43:50

I think it really is is purely , it's

43:53

purely that my

43:55

my , you know , talking with Maxime , as

43:57

I did a while back , he he is

43:59

, you know , he's looked at Rankings

44:03

in Apple podcasts and in Spotify

44:05

. He's got a ton of data

44:07

behind him to show

44:09

how how this works and how this

44:11

works well . We should probably get him back on

44:14

to talk about this specifically . But

44:16

yeah , I mean it's , it's basically , it's SEO

44:18

, just the same way as you would use SEO . I

44:21

mean , there is a reason why the , the

44:23

pod news daily , that

44:26

show now has in the

44:28

description it mentions Joe

44:31

Rogan , it mentions

44:33

a few other , if you are the large shows

44:35

, just just to get it in Exactly

44:39

, you know . But yeah , that's really

44:41

interesting , really interesting , and I do think that the

44:44

pod role , particularly that

44:46

, that is , your backlinks , isn't it , but

44:49

it's your backlinks from , from

44:51

the industry or from the , from

44:53

the community . It's not necessarily backlinks from

44:55

audiences . So perhaps there's something else

44:58

that we need to build that right .

45:00

Which I think you know , honestly , is probably better

45:03

at this point in the game , or at least something that we

45:05

can work with , because once you introduce

45:07

Tens of millions of listeners

45:10

, then you just have chaos on your hands . If

45:12

it's , if it's just podcasters recommending

45:14

other podcasts , that seems like

45:16

a higher signal , you know , amongst

45:18

the noise . For now , yeah so did

45:21

you go to pod fest this this past

45:23

week , james ?

45:23

I did not go to pod fest for two reasons

45:26

firstly , because it's a long , long , long

45:28

, long , long way away and secondly , it's a bit

45:30

too Florida for me , although

45:33

I am going to Orlando in May

45:36

, so I'm going to speak

45:38

at a Christian radio conference there , so so

45:40

that should be fun . I have a , I

45:42

have a form which I was supposed to fill out two

45:45

days ago . I'm telling

45:47

them exactly what it , whatever he's , I'm going to be saying so

45:49

I should probably , I should probably get

45:52

to doing that . I guess you weren't a

45:54

pod fest either , is .

45:56

Movement in .

45:56

Dallas , the only big one that you've been

45:59

to or have you been to others .

46:01

Yeah , I've been to two part podcast

46:03

movements . I don't Because

46:05

of my day job Jane did

46:07

from roughly January to May

46:10

is is almost impossible to

46:12

do any travel , so I am always miss pod

46:14

fest and I miss podcast moving

46:16

evolutions . So I've only

46:18

been to the other podcast movement

46:20

.

46:21

Yeah , the big one the big one , yes

46:23

, yes , yes , because you know you . In

46:25

your day job You'll be

46:27

, you know , dealing with W9

46:29

forms . The amount of W9 forms

46:32

I've had to fill in and sends to people

46:34

I don't even know what they are .

46:37

That's give us , that's give us all your

46:39

per , all your highly personal numbers

46:41

and social security and all this stuff

46:43

, so that we can send you a 1099 . Yeah , exactly

46:46

Exactly , I guess you do get 1099

46:49

since you're an , since you're incorporated here

46:51

in the US .

46:53

I'm sure that the person that deals with my accounts

46:55

is , yes , absolutely , absolutely

46:58

doing that . Yes , I've got no idea

47:00

about any of this stuff . It used to be

47:02

. I . I worked for a Canadian radio

47:05

company about three or four years ago and

47:08

I ended up paying more Canadian tax

47:10

than I did , australian

47:12

tax , which was , which

47:14

was very strange , very strange . There

47:17

I was , you know , helping the good people of British

47:19

Columbia , what who

47:21

knows . But anyway , talking

47:23

about pod fest , which we were , and until

47:26

we went off on one , I spoke . I

47:28

spoke with Claire white Brown from the

47:30

creativity found podcast . She

47:32

did go to pod fest , so I asked

47:34

her what it was like and I was interested in

47:36

whether it was her first big event

47:39

it was .

47:40

So I've been to a number of events in

47:42

London and when

47:44

I saw this one in Orlando Orlando is a bit

47:46

easier for us Brits to

47:49

get to and a bit more affordable

47:51

, so , yeah

47:53

, I decided to bite the bullet

47:55

and go for it and go see what

47:58

podcast conferences are like in

48:00

the year US . I'm here , I hear

48:02

a lot about US podcasting

48:04

generally and I I have a number of US

48:06

guests and listeners , so I wanted

48:09

to go over and go to a big event

48:11

and did you pay for the tickets or

48:13

how did you get hold of those ? Well

48:15

, you see , luckily and I was I

48:17

was kind of a bit hopeful . So I

48:19

booked my flights and I booked my hotel

48:21

and I was hoping that

48:24

my lovely host , buzz sprout

48:26

because I'd heard them do this before

48:28

Would have some tickets to

48:30

give away . And yes , they did so . On the day

48:32

they announced that on buzzcast

48:34

, I was in the car and I rushed

48:36

back home . They're right .

48:38

I've got to get on to customer support .

48:40

Speak with Brian . And yes , so

48:42

my creator pass was Given

48:45

to me by buzz sprout , which , you know , considering

48:48

the costs going into a big trip like this

48:50

was , was really very helpful

48:52

and Much appreciated on my

48:54

part .

48:55

Well , they are our sponsor as well . So you

48:57

know , I can never say any bad

48:59

things about buzz sprout .

49:02

Not that you would want to know is never a bad thing

49:04

to say about no , indeed , and I

49:06

noticed that you .

49:07

You met Brian from customer support

49:09

while you were there . I

49:11

did Jordan and Albin . I

49:13

noticed not , not Kevin .

49:14

I didn't meet Kevin . No , I was hoping to meet

49:17

Kevin at the party , but it was just

49:19

too damn busy and he was just too damn

49:21

popular .

49:22

Yeah , well , you know , there you go . So

49:24

what did you think that pod fest would be like

49:26

?

49:26

first of all , Well , I didn't

49:28

really know , but I had had a little bit

49:30

of a clue from you actually , james , which was quite

49:33

nice because I wrote to you about it and

49:35

you said About you felt

49:37

it was grassroots , which is right up my

49:39

street , because I'm

49:41

an indie podcaster , you know . It was

49:43

an idea I had . The wonderfulness about

49:46

pod casting is you can just do it At

49:49

little expense . You don't need to do as you're

49:51

told . You can run the show how

49:53

you want to put it out , how you want

49:55

to it can have . It can be

49:57

hours and hours or it can be 10 minutes

49:59

, all of that kind of thing . But

50:01

I felt I do feel sometimes

50:04

going to some of the events in the UK a

50:07

bit lost in that area

50:09

, in that there's a lot of big business around

50:11

it . So I was quite happy to think that pod

50:14

fest may be more indie podcasters

50:16

like myself . I certainly know a lot of indie

50:18

podcasters here in the UK , but

50:21

not necessarily feel that

50:23

going to event I'm going to meet lots of them . But

50:26

then this was exactly what

50:28

happened at pod fest . It was so lovely . Obviously

50:30

I went completely on my own . I didn't know

50:32

anyone when I got there , apart from

50:34

Brian and Jordan , obviously Through

50:37

digital communication , but

50:40

it was a case of

50:42

being able to say someone so

50:44

what's your show ? And more often

50:46

than not , they did have a show and it

50:48

was their idea and they were doing this

50:50

show for this reason , or they were promoting

50:52

it for this reason . So it did feel very much

50:54

. I was very comfortable there . Oh

50:57

, it's so cheesy , but I was amongst my

50:59

people .

51:01

Yeah , well , that's a good thing I

51:04

found from pod fest and I went

51:06

a number of years ago , but I found

51:08

it very American and

51:11

certainly there was a thing called speed dating

51:13

.

51:13

Which terrified me Was

51:16

that , when you went , yes , yeah

51:20

, I've been calling it speed dating since

51:22

, but it's speed networking really

51:24

, and I know what you mean , james , because

51:26

I am very British . I did

51:29

find I didn't find

51:31

it very American at all . I didn't . There

51:33

was one thing I videoed

51:35

where a very lovely man

51:38

was doing some singing and I was like , oh

51:40

crikey , this is a bit , this is

51:42

a bit American , sent that home to my family . But

51:45

generally I didn't

51:47

and I really just found it

51:49

very friendly , very

51:52

ordinary , if you know what

51:54

I mean . It wasn't all whoop , whoop , you

51:57

know big American stuff . The people

51:59

, the individuals that I were meeting there was

52:02

so friendly . They were so keen

52:04

to explain things to me that I didn't know

52:06

is a Brit and vice versa , to

52:08

ask me about stuff that's different

52:10

in the UK and

52:13

the parties and things and talking to people . So I

52:16

would be one to notice if something

52:18

was a bit , as we would say , american

52:20

, and I didn't find it overly that

52:22

way at all .

52:24

Good Well , that's a good thing and lots of

52:26

informal meetups . So obviously you must

52:28

have been at the Buzzsprout party I'm imagining

52:30

with the balloons . From what

52:33

I understand , I was listening to Buzzcast and

52:35

listening all about that

52:37

, but there were lots of informal

52:39

meetups as well , I think .

52:41

Yeah , and that was lovely as well . So we had

52:43

the app and within the app

52:45

, obviously you've got your agenda on

52:47

there . You can try to fathom

52:49

out what you want to go to when , because there's such a

52:51

lot of talks going on . I

52:54

mean , obviously you can buy recordings of it , but it's

52:56

really good to be in the room with the speaker , but also

52:58

with other people in the room that

53:01

are interested in this topic and you can speak to them . But

53:04

, yeah , definitely there's a really lovely

53:06

, good sized space with round tables that was

53:09

just always open and just always

53:11

free from meeting up . There were people meeting in the

53:13

hallways . I mean , I went

53:15

to an organised one which was

53:18

arranged by Jen Hardy and it was aimed

53:20

at podcasters over the age of 50

53:22

. And that was really lovely

53:25

to actually speak individually

53:27

to some people there , find

53:29

out about their shows and vice versa . And then

53:31

during the rest of the conference , when you're wandering about

53:33

and you're in the halls , you've got

53:36

people that you've already met to

53:38

say hello to . And I know there were

53:40

lots of other groups like that . And

53:42

I'm going to be a bit American here , james , in

53:44

your niche or niche , as you say here , but

53:48

there were lots of informal

53:50

meetups that you could go to to meet other people

53:52

like yourself doing the same kind of show as

53:54

you or having the same interests

53:56

, which I thought was really lovely

53:58

as well .

54:01

Now you went to one of the talks that

54:03

you went to was all about podcasting

54:05

2.0 with Todd

54:08

and apparently he used one of Sam's

54:10

slides , which Sam will be delighted about

54:12

. He did , he did I'm delighted

54:15

about , and was

54:17

there lots of talk about podcasting 2.0

54:20

, or was it still a bit sort of ? We're

54:22

not quite sure what it is .

54:23

Yeah , it is still a bit more

54:26

. A bit we're not quite sure what it is . I

54:28

forgot to take a photo of Todd with Sam's

54:31

slide up , so I apologize for that , sam

54:33

, I was too busy listening . But

54:36

yeah , I think there

54:38

was more because

54:40

I'm you know I'm quite

54:43

very keen on all of this stuff

54:45

very interested in

54:47

it .

54:48

You do the value for value , don't you ?

54:50

Yes , yes , yes , yes , yes , I'm loving

54:52

that and I loved not blowing

54:55

smoke here , james , but I did love your description

54:57

of the fairground tokens , because I do

54:59

think people are a bit frightened of , like

55:01

, what's a sat ? Oh my God , do I have to ? You know

55:03

, put money over in my wallet

55:06

and blah , blah , blah . And you described it as

55:08

fairground tokens , which I think is perfect , because

55:10

in my wallet at the moment I

55:12

have , I think , a grand total of 16,000

55:15

sats , which I'm very pleased about , but

55:17

yeah , I haven't put any money into my wallet myself

55:20

. I've been able to boost and connect

55:22

with other podcasts

55:24

by using the sats that I've

55:27

earned just by listening . I

55:29

met a chap in the queue for the bar

55:31

you always meet the best people in queues for the

55:33

bar who gave me 10,000

55:35

sats because we were talking about podcasting

55:37

2.0 and value for value . But I felt

55:39

that more of the people I

55:41

was speaking to were aware of it

55:44

, knew the term and

55:47

the point that they're then at is then really

55:50

understanding what it means

55:52

and , to my mind , how easy

55:54

it is to take advantage of it , to use it

55:56

. But I know you and

55:58

Sam have been talking about it's

56:00

kind of down to the

56:02

apps to take on the mantle

56:05

and include some of those .

56:08

Yeah , I mean the hard sort of education and all of that

56:10

kind of stuff is always important

56:12

.

56:12

Yeah , and just make it acceptable and just

56:15

understandable and it's not scary .

56:17

So what was the most valuable thing

56:19

you learned ? I have a theory

56:21

about conferences and

56:23

events like podcast or evolutions

56:26

from podcast movement , which I'm going to . I

56:29

have a theory that actually you

56:31

go away , it's three days

56:33

of sort of fun and chatting to people , but you probably

56:36

go away with two big things

56:38

that you've learned , and

56:41

those big things are actually worth enough

56:44

, in my opinion , for

56:47

you to have actually gone there . Were

56:49

there some big things that you learned or was it just

56:51

meeting lots of people , making

56:53

lots of contacts and all that ?

56:55

Yeah , I wouldn't say

56:57

so . I came away

56:59

and I'm going to be a

57:01

really annoying guest and I'm not going to

57:03

put it into two things that I've learned , because that's

57:06

just I haven't got the brain space

57:08

yet to actually hone that

57:10

in , but I came away with

57:12

notes , not loads and loads of notes . Another

57:14

thing I like about these kind of events is sometimes

57:16

they can help reiterate

57:18

to yourself that you're on the right

57:21

track , that you know

57:23

things and you are doing things in a good

57:25

way , that you want to do . So that I

57:27

find very valuable . As you've already

57:29

said , meeting people is very valuable

57:32

. I've been . I think this is the first

57:34

conference I've been to . I've actually come

57:36

back with contact details and got back

57:38

in touch with those people , whether

57:40

for friendly chat , whether to actually

57:42

talk about guest swaps and

57:45

just sharing information Certainly not

57:47

a lot of sharing information

57:50

. For example , there was some you know , the

57:52

inevitable chat about AI

57:54

, and some of us have been chatting amongst

57:56

ourselves and sharing our experiences of

57:59

what we're trying within AI

58:01

, for example , show notes etc . So

58:04

, yeah , the connecting with people . But I did come

58:06

back with some notes and

58:08

the plan in my head

58:10

, which is good for me , because

58:13

everything can be a bit fuddled up in there with

58:15

all the information you've taken on , but

58:18

a plan in my head to actually look

58:20

at what I've taken from

58:23

it , find the most important things that

58:25

I want to actually implement . And there are a couple

58:27

of things I want to implement , but

58:29

to schedule those in a long , slow

58:32

process . So I'm going to say

58:34

, like , for this month I'm going

58:37

to do this small thing and next

58:39

month I'm going to do this small thing , so that

58:41

I can actually do them all

58:43

and they don't all get rushed together

58:45

and then probably , you know , by

58:48

the wayside or what have you . So

58:50

a little bit of just slowing down , looking

58:52

at it all and taking on the ones that I really want

58:55

to do , giving myself the time to actually

58:57

do them .

58:57

So what's your advice for people going to these types

59:00

of events ?

59:00

Well . So the other thing I wanted to say , actually

59:03

, is that I am a

59:05

very good networker . I

59:08

am absolutely happy to go

59:10

to events like these completely on my own

59:12

and go and talk to people . I

59:14

have no problem with that whatsoever . Not everybody

59:16

does . Also , I think people

59:19

often think that they're going to go to these events

59:21

and it's going to be cringey , or there's

59:23

going to be oh , we haven't talked about the

59:25

speed dating oh yeah , which

59:27

wasn't cringey , but you know

59:29

it's going to be really difficult

59:32

for them . At this particular event , there

59:34

was a table and it had some

59:36

extra things you could stick onto your

59:38

lanyard . For example

59:41

, my pronouns are or

59:43

I'm an introvert or I'm an extrovert

59:46

, which I think possibly yeah

59:48

is . I didn't use any of those . But if

59:50

you felt you needed a bit

59:52

of help when you're going

59:54

to be talking to strangers , it's a bit American , isn't it

59:56

? I was going to say that , and then I wasn't going to say

59:58

that , yeah , yeah

1:00:01

, I did think that , even

1:00:03

if you don't feel that you're very confident

1:00:06

in going to things on your own , we're

1:00:08

often told

1:00:11

we need to be selling ourselves and selling

1:00:13

our products and blah , blah , blah , selling

1:00:15

our show . Don't feel it has to

1:00:17

be like that Just be human

1:00:19

. Majority of people at these events

1:00:21

are human , but you know what I mean . You

1:00:24

know they're just ordinary humans , beings , and

1:00:26

it is can

1:00:29

be easier to just talk to people

1:00:31

than you think

1:00:33

, and I personally

1:00:35

make better connections when

1:00:37

I speak to a person in real life . Yeah

1:00:39

, yeah .

1:00:42

Well , everybody is in the same boat as well

1:00:44

, aren't they which ? is important , yeah

1:00:46

. So another thing that I would add to that is plan

1:00:48

, plan ahead , plan the different things

1:00:51

that you're going to go and see . If

1:00:53

you're coming to Evolutions or Podcast Movement , make

1:00:55

sure you go and see Amy Poehler and the

1:00:57

ridiculous English

1:01:00

guy that will talk for

1:01:02

10 minutes prior to Amy Poehler

1:01:04

. He's very good , you

1:01:07

should go and see him . So , yeah

1:01:09

, you know , planning is a good thing because

1:01:11

otherwise , actually , you're not going to get

1:01:13

the best out of some

1:01:15

of the speakers that you end up seeing there . I

1:01:18

think I don't know if you agree with that .

1:01:20

Yeah , I think it's going to save on your stress while

1:01:22

you're there as well . I definitely went through the

1:01:24

app , went through the agenda , ticked

1:01:26

off the ones on the agenda I wanted to go

1:01:29

to Didn't necessarily always go to

1:01:31

that ones , you know , sometimes I change my mind

1:01:33

but have a good understanding of

1:01:35

what's there and then you're not going to be stressed

1:01:38

rushing between rooms and

1:01:40

you're not going to be stressed about changing

1:01:42

your mind because you've got a good idea of what's going

1:01:44

on . I think that's a very good , very good idea

1:01:47

, james . Yeah , good point .

1:01:49

Yes , yes , especially the English guy

1:01:51

before Amy Poehler . And

1:01:55

the final question is what is the name of your podcast

1:01:58

and why should we listen ?

1:01:59

Oh , thank you so much . Yeah , so my podcast

1:02:01

is called Creativity Found

1:02:03

and it's born

1:02:05

out of my own experience , although I

1:02:07

didn't realise that until I'd been making

1:02:10

the show for quite a few episodes . But

1:02:12

basically I speak with people who have found

1:02:14

or re-found their creativity

1:02:17

later in life . So we talk

1:02:19

a lot about the hiatus period

1:02:21

, when , insensible , every

1:02:23

day , normal all of those in

1:02:25

bunny ears life , you know creativity

1:02:27

is put to the bottom of a pile and

1:02:29

how people have found their way back and how they

1:02:32

benefit from that in

1:02:35

their life now . So there's a lot

1:02:37

of personal journal , there's a

1:02:39

lot of wellbeing , there's a

1:02:41

lot of good advice on trying things and

1:02:43

not worrying if you're not perfect

1:02:45

at them , and it's from

1:02:48

all sorts of creative disciplines

1:02:50

. So my guests are from all over the world

1:02:52

, all sorts of creative disciplines , and

1:02:54

have so many different stories

1:02:56

.

1:02:57

Well , thank you , buzz Brown , for the tickets and thank you

1:02:59

, claire , for your time today .

1:03:01

Thank you so much . It's been fabulous .

1:03:03

Claire Waite-Brown from the Creativity Found

1:03:06

podcast .

1:03:06

Yeah , it was nice to hear that she

1:03:08

was given 10,000 sats

1:03:10

by a man in the queue for the bar

1:03:13

. This is how things work , isn't

1:03:15

it ?

1:03:15

I think when you get into the

1:03:17

weird underbelly of

1:03:19

Bitcoin stuff , you never know who's going to just

1:03:22

give you sats . It may be some random guy at a bar

1:03:24

.

1:03:25

You know that's how that works .

1:03:26

Show me your app and I'll show you mine , and you'll get 10,000

1:03:29

sats .

1:03:31

Say can I have a look at your QR code ? That's

1:03:34

right . Yeah

1:03:37

, no , but it was good to hear that . You

1:03:40

know she went to Todd . She

1:03:42

went to hear Todd talking about

1:03:45

that and value for value was something that Claire

1:03:47

has been doing for a while on her show

1:03:50

and everything else , and she liked Fairground

1:03:52

Tokens , which I was very , very pleased about .

1:03:54

Yes , congratulations .

1:03:55

I don't know quite what you think about Fairground

1:03:57

Tokens . I'm sure that Adam disapproves

1:04:00

, as he disapproves of most things that I say

1:04:02

.

1:04:04

I think all analogies are

1:04:07

fair game . They all fall down in some

1:04:09

way or another . It's

1:04:11

very hard to make analogies to any of this stuff

1:04:13

. I

1:04:15

like how she throws in blah blah blah

1:04:18

, because that's basically when

1:04:20

you start talking about Bitcoin and podcasting and

1:04:22

sats . There's always going to be a little

1:04:24

bit of blah blah blah in there .

1:04:25

Yeah , put money over into my wallet and blah , blah

1:04:28

, blah . Let's

1:04:30

look at some other events . Podcasting is coming

1:04:32

to South by Southwest , which is

1:04:34

in . What I was going to say is in your neck of the

1:04:36

woods , it's in Adam's neck of the woods , isn't it ? Austin

1:04:39

, kind of yes , early

1:04:41

March . And then , of course , there's Evolutions

1:04:44

, which I'm going to , sam's going to . There's

1:04:47

PodFrance as well , which they're doing

1:04:49

to put together podcasting's top

1:04:51

publishers with brands , agencies and buyers

1:04:54

. I'm not going to that bit , but I'm

1:04:56

sure it's going to be very good . The New Zealand

1:04:58

Podcasting Summit 2024 has been announced

1:05:01

on May the 11th in Auckland and the podcast

1:05:03

show in London , which I am going to

1:05:05

, as is Sam the 22nd

1:05:07

and 23rd of May , looking forward to that . Such

1:05:10

a good event and it should be very

1:05:12

excellent . This year . There's a creators section

1:05:15

, which they've not done before , so

1:05:18

hopefully we'll find

1:05:20

out more about that . And there are more events

1:05:22

, both paid for and free , at PodNews

1:05:24

virtual events or events in a

1:05:26

place with people , and if you're organising

1:05:28

something you can tell the world about , it's free to be listed

1:05:31

. Podnewsnet slash events . The

1:05:33

tech stuff on the Pod

1:05:35

News Weekly Review . Yes

1:05:38

, it's the stuff you'll find every Monday in the Pod News

1:05:40

newsletter . Here's where we do all of the tech

1:05:42

talk , and I'm delighted that you're here , dave

1:05:44

, because normally I am basically taking

1:05:47

the posts that you have posted on MasterDom

1:05:49

and then

1:05:51

rewriting those , and then Sam and I talk about them

1:05:53

. So

1:05:57

cut out the middleman .

1:05:59

Yeah , well , I basically did the same thing . I went and looked at my

1:06:01

email and looked at the namespace and like , hey , here we

1:06:03

go , what's going on ? And

1:06:05

the first thing that popped out was Eric

1:06:08

Pee-Pee . So

1:06:11

Helipad , that's the thing we all many

1:06:14

of us use to see our booster grams

1:06:16

and get those

1:06:18

messages and that kind of thing . I've

1:06:20

pretty much turned over the

1:06:22

source code of Hellypad over to Eric Peepee . He's

1:06:24

kind of running with that full , full steam

1:06:26

. Now I just got so much going on that it

1:06:29

was great to see him pick that up . And he's

1:06:31

got a new release . He's got this

1:06:33

lets you reply . So if somebody sends you

1:06:35

a booster , you can reply back and send Sats

1:06:37

back and a message . There's

1:06:40

a . Scent tab to let you

1:06:42

see all your Scent boost when you're replying

1:06:44

. He's got password protection in there

1:06:46

. You can see your automated boosts and

1:06:49

if you run an Umbrella or Start9 , you can

1:06:51

run it on there or you can run it on any machine

1:06:54

. He's got new app icons

1:06:56

for podcast guru and true fans

1:06:58

and LN beats Lots of great

1:07:00

stuff .

1:07:01

Ah , and as I talk , I

1:07:03

thought I'll go into Umbrella and I'll just check

1:07:05

whether the update is available and it is

1:07:07

. Oh really , yeah , there

1:07:11

it is Added . Missing user agent header when

1:07:13

calling the podcast index API . You'll be pleased

1:07:15

about that . That will be , and

1:07:17

various other entertaining things . Excellent , let's hit

1:07:20

the update button on that then . What could

1:07:22

possibly go wrong ?

1:07:23

I'm not going to do that because I'm podcasting from

1:07:25

my Umbrella , so I'm not going to risk this

1:07:27

at all . So I'm like terrible

1:07:29

decision .

1:07:31

Nobody wants that . Nobody wants that . So

1:07:34

that is a very cool thing and it's nice to see

1:07:36

Eric doing a ton of work

1:07:38

with that , which is nice . Phase

1:07:41

seven of the namespace . So the namespace

1:07:43

is lots of additional functions and additional

1:07:46

tools

1:07:48

and things for podcasting in

1:07:50

general . You have set

1:07:52

a closing date , haven't you ? Which is sometime

1:07:54

in the future .

1:07:55

It is , it is , it's . Why is that

1:07:57

? June 1st we sort

1:08:00

of intentionally slowed

1:08:02

down things . We were going when the

1:08:04

first first year and a half , two

1:08:06

years of the namespace development , we

1:08:08

were just going at a lightning speed and

1:08:11

that's just not great for anybody to keep

1:08:13

up a pace like that . And

1:08:15

I think it was good to slow down the

1:08:18

introduction of new tags and that kind of thing so

1:08:21

that hosts could catch up , apps

1:08:23

could catch up , and because these development

1:08:25

cycles , I mean it takes a long time . So

1:08:28

we intentionally kind of slowed everything

1:08:30

down and just stopped the frantic pace and

1:08:32

I feel like now , going forward

1:08:35

, it probably makes sense to have

1:08:37

roughly a six month cadence on bringing

1:08:40

out new phases . So

1:08:42

a phase is we

1:08:45

sort of have an idea for a bunch of features and

1:08:47

tags that we want , that

1:08:50

the community has said , hey , I want

1:08:52

this . And then

1:08:55

we sort of try to hash

1:08:57

them out and we discuss them

1:08:59

, debate them , try to find problems with them all the normal things

1:09:01

you do as you're developing new

1:09:03

things and

1:09:06

then at the end of the period

1:09:08

when that phase closes , we just do a red , you know , say okay

1:09:10

, where are we at ? Is this tag good enough

1:09:12

. Does it need more work ? If it

1:09:14

does , we'll just kick it to the next phase . If

1:09:18

this other tag or this other feature

1:09:21

enhancement maybe it's ready not

1:09:23

on June 1st , maybe

1:09:26

it's ready April 1st We'll go ahead and do it . It

1:09:28

doesn't mean we have to wait , but it does mean

1:09:30

that it's not a good time to do it . It

1:09:33

does mean that it's nice to have sort of a , I

1:09:35

think a six month expectation

1:09:39

that we're going to have a

1:09:41

new set of features to target

1:09:43

for a specific date , and that , I

1:09:45

think , helps everybody have sort

1:09:48

of a goal in mind for what dates and

1:09:50

they want to hit , so that we don't

1:09:53

just sit around and not so

1:09:55

we're not going too fast and we're also not going too

1:09:57

slow .

1:09:58

What's your favorite new feature

1:10:00

in this next

1:10:02

phase ? That's a nasty question

1:10:04

to ask , isn't it ?

1:10:06

I don't know if I have a favorite . I

1:10:09

would say that probably publisher feeds and

1:10:11

the publisher medium make a lot of

1:10:13

sense to me . But then I think

1:10:16

, do you want to explain what those are how

1:10:19

those work . Yeah , sure , so this is sort

1:10:22

of again like a backlink type of

1:10:24

situation or a pod roll , but

1:10:26

it takes a little bit of a different approach . So

1:10:28

if I'm a podcast

1:10:30

network or even a podcaster

1:10:32

that has four different

1:10:35

podcasts , well then maybe

1:10:37

I want to group my

1:10:39

podcast together in

1:10:41

a way where it's easier to discover

1:10:44

all the shows that belong

1:10:46

to me . You could think of this sort of like

1:10:48

as an open version of

1:10:50

Apple's channels feature

1:10:52

in the Apple podcast . So

1:10:55

you can say all right , I have

1:10:57

four podcasts and

1:10:59

I'm going to have a feed , and

1:11:01

the feed is going to have a medium of publisher

1:11:04

, and so the only four

1:11:06

things in that feed are going to be links to

1:11:08

the other feeds , and

1:11:12

you can go in reverse as well . So each

1:11:14

podcast feed has

1:11:17

a link back up to the publisher feed . So it's

1:11:19

sort of a two-way street . I can start

1:11:21

at the publisher feed and find all

1:11:23

the shows that that publisher creates , or

1:11:25

I can find one of their feeds , go

1:11:28

back up the chain to the publisher

1:11:30

feed and then discover all the other ones . So

1:11:32

it's sort of a two-way street and you get some

1:11:34

verification there too . I'm

1:11:37

not just saying that I'm part of this publisher

1:11:40

. The publisher's feed also

1:11:42

says yes , this is part of this publisher

1:11:44

.

1:11:44

Right , yeah , so one links to one and

1:11:46

the other links to the other , and that sort

1:11:49

of helps you , and that's different from

1:11:51

Podroll , because Podroll you can link to anything

1:11:53

you like . So this show links

1:11:56

to the BuzzCast show

1:11:59

because of our sponsor

1:12:01

and also because we like it , and

1:12:04

so that's all fine , but

1:12:07

that's very different from this , which

1:12:09

is very much more focused on . Here

1:12:11

are all of the shows that this publisher

1:12:13

has produced .

1:12:14

Yes , that's right . And

1:12:16

on the medium front , we've also got a proposal

1:12:18

for adding a new medium

1:12:21

of course . So that would be

1:12:23

like some

1:12:25

kind of teaching course or an

1:12:28

educational type course .

1:12:31

Right . So we've got mediums of audiobooks

1:12:33

.

1:12:33

I think We've got mediums

1:12:36

of music , obviously

1:12:38

podcasts and now

1:12:41

courses , yeah , and I think these make

1:12:43

sense to distinguish

1:12:45

between , because we're about obviously

1:12:47

, we've done tons of stuff with music over the last

1:12:49

year , year and a half but

1:12:52

I think audiobooks make

1:12:54

a ton of sense . We're

1:12:56

already talking I talked

1:12:59

in an email today with somebody who's doing

1:13:01

some audiobook work and they're

1:13:03

looking to publish those in a podcast

1:13:06

feed , and so , as we distinguish

1:13:08

between these different medium types , I

1:13:10

think it makes sense to go slow and pick , choose

1:13:13

wisely and course . Course

1:13:15

makes a lot of sense to me . I mean that it

1:13:18

just seems sort of intuitive that that would be

1:13:20

a thing that you would want to look for at a high level

1:13:22

, yeah .

1:13:23

No , I think that that makes a bunch of sense . There's

1:13:25

more details , of course , on that

1:13:27

if you go in through now . How

1:13:30

could people find more details on

1:13:32

these new features , I wonder

1:13:34

?

1:13:36

It's super easy , Jay . You just Google

1:13:38

for podcast namespace , click on the GitHub

1:13:41

repo and then go to the discussions tab and

1:13:43

then click on the phases tab .

1:13:44

It could not be simpler , so it's

1:13:46

super easy to me . I have a

1:13:48

feeling that podcasting2.org

1:13:51

should have a link somewhere , yeah

1:13:55

. I think , so too . Boostergram .

1:13:57

Corner , corner .

1:13:58

Corner On the Pod

1:14:00

News Weekly Review . Yes , our favorite time of

1:14:03

the week .

1:14:04

It's Boostergram Corner and , yes

1:14:07

, lots of boosts . As ever

1:14:09

. We get boosts for the Pod News Daily , as well

1:14:11

as boosts for this very show . And

1:14:14

yeah , and do

1:14:16

you want to read the first one ? The first one out is

1:14:18

a bit weird isn't it ?

1:14:19

Yeah , it's 1,024 sets

1:14:21

and it just says great show , great show .

1:14:24

Excellent . Well , thank you , Thanks . Thank you , random

1:14:27

, anonymous person . The good news is now

1:14:29

that with the new helipad I can

1:14:31

hit reply on that one and

1:14:33

I can , yeah , so I

1:14:36

will do that and ask them who they are for the next time .

1:14:38

Who are ?

1:14:38

you , who are you ? Thanks

1:14:40

, random person for your 1k boost

1:14:42

, but yes

1:14:45

, but who are you ? 10,000

1:14:47

sets from Adam Curry , who

1:14:50

is very grumpy at me again this

1:14:53

time because I linked to

1:14:55

a video of your

1:14:58

board meeting from last week and

1:15:02

how it shows on the new Apple Podcasts

1:15:05

app and forgot

1:15:07

, of course , that I'd left a variable

1:15:10

speed on , so it was at 1.25%

1:15:13

and he was there

1:15:15

. He called it atrocious

1:15:17

and triggering . Speed

1:15:20

listening is not healthy people . Sorry

1:15:22

, adam .

1:15:23

Well , at least he paid you 10,000 sets for the privilege .

1:15:25

Yeah , at least he paid me 10,000 sets for that . And

1:15:28

I have to say I

1:15:31

didn't realize , because I've not been using an iPhone

1:15:33

. I didn't realize that Apple iPhones

1:15:36

don't have Skip Silence on

1:15:38

them . Yeah

1:15:40

, so all of the podcast apps that I've

1:15:42

ever used has had Skip Silence and all

1:15:44

of a sudden I discover that Apple Podcast is missing

1:15:47

this obvious basic feature . And

1:15:50

I'm there going . I really , really

1:15:52

miss that , but still , there we are .

1:15:55

That turned on . I used to have all of it . I

1:15:57

used to have the increase , speed , the gap

1:15:59

, skipper , all of that . I

1:16:02

turned it all off a couple of years ago . It

1:16:06

was baking my brain .

1:16:07

I couldn't handle it . Well

1:16:09

, there is some podcast that I can only

1:16:11

listen to if I turn all of the Skip .

1:16:13

Silence off .

1:16:16

Including ours , evidently . I mean Pocketcast

1:16:18

lets you choose them by

1:16:21

show , so you can have a specific setting

1:16:23

for I don't know the new media show

1:16:26

and a specific setting for the

1:16:28

podcasting 2.0 show , and

1:16:31

those are different in Pocketcasts

1:16:33

, but I'm being a good boy and I'm just using the Apple Podcast

1:16:35

app for now , who do you listen to

1:16:38

at a faster speed ?

1:16:39

us or new media show ?

1:16:40

Oh , the new media show has all of the

1:16:42

silent skipping 2X

1:16:46

, 2X and everything else and

1:16:50

it's yeah , I have to be

1:16:53

. I love that show when

1:16:55

it's a normal show and I would completely

1:16:58

agree , by the way , with what Adam

1:17:00

was saying . It's just not the same without

1:17:02

Todd . Just not the same . Don't

1:17:05

leave me Todd , co-creators . Just

1:17:07

not the same without Todd . So I'm

1:17:09

hoping that Todd comes back on that show

1:17:11

relatively soon , but

1:17:14

yeah , no , it's good . A thousand

1:17:16

cents from Andrew . Now , he did

1:17:18

tell me how to pronounce his surname

1:17:21

and I've completely forgotten . Do

1:17:23

you want to have a go ? Yeah , andrew Grummit .

1:17:25

Andrew Grummit there you go . Yeah

1:17:28

, one of Adam's employees at PodShow

1:17:30

.

1:17:31

Oh wow , there you go .

1:17:34

One of the first , I think . I think he was

1:17:36

a very perhaps one of the foundational

1:17:39

employees at Meavio .

1:17:41

I had no idea . I had no idea

1:17:43

. Are you these newcomers in the industry ?

1:17:47

Whippersnappers , no idea . 2222

1:17:50

Sats from Gene Bean . He says welcome to the world

1:17:52

of Apple phone users , James .

1:17:54

Yes , it's been an entertainment . There's

1:17:56

another blog on the way , I'm sure 2222

1:17:59

Sats from Mea Mortals , from

1:18:01

Kyren . He says here's some

1:18:03

fresh goss . You might not know the swankiest

1:18:05

, and then he uses a phrase that I have no

1:18:07

idea bougiest , bougiest , bougie

1:18:10

, bougiest , like bourgeois . Oh

1:18:12

, okay , the swankiest

1:18:14

, bougiest gym I've ever checked

1:18:16

out is Total Fusion Newstead . Kyren

1:18:19

has no Kyren

1:18:21

and I . He talks about gyms and

1:18:24

I'm no , no

1:18:26

interest in gyms . But anyway , the reason , the

1:18:28

reason why he says it is they have a podcast Studio

1:18:33

on their ground floor . So that's nice

1:18:35

. Sam is here next week

1:18:37

and I have just booked a

1:18:40

. I've just booked a proper podcast studio

1:18:42

for next week .

1:18:43

Oh , you sprung for the big boy yeah .

1:18:46

So I will not be . I

1:18:48

will not be , I'll be in the

1:18:50

pod in West End and

1:18:53

I will not be in this slightly echoy room . So

1:18:56

that's so . That's good news . So Sam

1:18:58

is back next week .

1:18:59

Sam is here in Brisbane next

1:19:01

week In honor of Sam . I

1:19:04

didn't mention it , but I'm doing the . I'm doing

1:19:06

the show from the bubble

1:19:08

bath with my red wine in

1:19:10

. In honor of Sam , I'm holding

1:19:12

down the Fort . Sam .

1:19:13

Yeah , cause that's that's what he always

1:19:16

does . Yeah , and

1:19:18

then 500 sats , inexplicable

1:19:20

500 sats from now . Is

1:19:22

this Joe Rowey or Joe Rowey , but

1:19:24

anyway , 500 sats from him through fountain

1:19:26

. I like pickleball .

1:19:29

Oh good . Oh that's , that's okay

1:19:31

, great .

1:19:33

You get some interest this is .

1:19:35

This is an interesting set of booster grams you get on this show

1:19:37

.

1:19:38

Yeah , thank you for those boosts . And

1:19:40

just to remind you , sam and

1:19:42

I share these boosts . What

1:19:44

we should have done is we should have had a split

1:19:46

for you , dave . We

1:19:48

don't have the technology to do that . I'm afraid

1:19:51

we will have a look at splitting that . So

1:19:56

so the pod , the pod news weekly review . What do

1:19:58

I normally say here ? The pod news weekly review is separate

1:20:00

from pod news , sam , and I share everything . So

1:20:03

please give us a boost in your new podcast

1:20:05

apps . That would be lovely . Modern podcast appscom

1:20:07

is , I believe , the place where you should be going these

1:20:10

days , or you can

1:20:12

slip us some fiat

1:20:14

at weeklypodnewsnet

1:20:16

. So what's happened for you

1:20:18

this week then , dave ?

1:20:20

I'm going to be working on on trying

1:20:22

to get back in the namespace and sort of getting

1:20:24

that thing tidied up . I started out

1:20:26

a little bit today . I think

1:20:29

is I've been

1:20:31

really focused on the activity , pub bridge

1:20:33

and and I've got

1:20:36

. I've got a little bit

1:20:38

more to do on that , but I'm really trying to

1:20:40

resist the urge to code that . And

1:20:42

because what it's missing is search

1:20:45

, you're doing it because it's fun . I

1:20:47

am , I have , and

1:20:49

you know this as a as a as a programmer

1:20:52

, you know that when you get into something

1:20:54

that's really fun and challenging it's , it's

1:20:56

hard to break away from it and do the thing that you

1:20:58

know you should the drudgery . So

1:21:00

I'm I'm I'm resisting the urge

1:21:02

to code more on that and I'm going

1:21:05

to stay in the namespace for the most part . And

1:21:07

also I got a little bit of a cleanup

1:21:09

to do on on the index . We've

1:21:12

we have some sweepers that go through and check

1:21:14

for old feeds that

1:21:17

are for a forward and we give them grace

1:21:19

periods . And then we have some things that

1:21:21

look for iTunes IDs or Apple

1:21:23

podcast IDs that have changed and just

1:21:25

a bunch of cleanup scripts . And there's

1:21:28

been some bugs in those that have been squashing this

1:21:30

week , so just stuff like that .

1:21:32

Well , I enjoyed your your talking in

1:21:34

the the podcasting 2.0 podcast

1:21:37

last week about avoiding burnout

1:21:39

and stuff like that , and I was . I was taking

1:21:42

notes all the way through there .

1:21:45

It's a hard thing in the in , yeah , hard thing

1:21:47

in open source , very , very common

1:21:49

in open source , yeah . So what happened for you

1:21:51

this week ?

1:21:51

James , I have been cursing

1:21:54

visual studio code , which

1:21:56

is the , the , the

1:21:58

, the , the programming editor that I use

1:22:00

. I've been cursing that because

1:22:02

they made a change . I

1:22:04

foolishly pressed the oh yeah , update

1:22:06

button for the latest

1:22:09

version of visual studio code and

1:22:11

then discovered that the

1:22:14

, the SSH tool

1:22:16

that it used basically , was

1:22:19

no longer going to support

1:22:21

older Linux

1:22:24

distros or something . So

1:22:27

I'm using Amazon Linux 2 . I

1:22:29

think on one of on on the main pod

1:22:32

news box , or was using that , and

1:22:34

all of a sudden it wouldn't connect to it anymore , and

1:22:36

so I couldn't edit any code

1:22:38

. But , more to the point , I couldn't do some

1:22:41

of the editorial work that I do , which is

1:22:43

still actually , you know , going

1:22:45

in and editing .

1:22:46

What kind of connection is this ? Is this

1:22:48

does ? Does VS code ? Does it SSH

1:22:51

over to the box ? Yeah

1:22:54

, it is . It's so to speak .

1:22:56

Yeah , it SSH is over to the box , but then

1:22:58

it installs some software on that box

1:23:01

and uses that as a channel

1:23:03

back and forth

1:23:05

. Okay yeah , and

1:23:07

all of a sudden it stopped working . Why

1:23:10

Do you know ? Why Do ?

1:23:11

you know why .

1:23:12

Yeah , it was just

1:23:14

hidden away in the release notes . It was oh

1:23:16

, we're no longer supporting this version of , I don't

1:23:18

know , G-Lib C or something equally dull

1:23:20

.

1:23:23

Oh , and I and .

1:23:24

I , and so I ended up having to

1:23:26

move

1:23:29

the pod news box yesterday

1:23:31

, which I didn't want to do , and that's

1:23:33

now running Amazon Linux 2023

1:23:35

. That's nice . And PHP eight

1:23:37

, which means that , of course , that quite

1:23:39

a lot of my dodgy PHP isn't working

1:23:41

at the moment . I'm literally as , as we

1:23:43

speak , I'm looking at the terminal window and

1:23:46

I'm looking at the errors coming

1:23:48

up and seeing another fatal error and

1:23:50

that's oh dear . That's something else that I need to go and fix

1:23:52

this kind of stuff

1:23:55

. Oh , so anyway . So it's

1:23:57

been a it's been a great week of , you

1:23:59

know , fiddling around with that sort of thing . And , of course

1:24:02

, google and Yahoo

1:24:04

both made a big change about bulk

1:24:07

email , which means that you have to

1:24:09

do certain things if you want your email to actually

1:24:11

get to people .

1:24:12

Yes , this is the long awaited changes

1:24:14

that , yeah , have been hearing about

1:24:16

this . What , what exactly did

1:24:19

they change ?

1:24:20

Yeah . So there's , you know , you have to have de-kim

1:24:22

and you have to have , you know , signing for mail

1:24:26

and all this kind of stuff , and it's just so

1:24:28

. I mean , yes , they're doing the

1:24:30

right thing , it's a bit like Apple podcasts yes

1:24:32

, they're doing the right thing , but it's so annoying .

1:24:34

Yeah , yeah , I feel

1:24:36

yeah , dmark , and all that yeah .

1:24:39

Yeah , yeah , dmark , and then , and then there's , and

1:24:41

then there's some headers that you also need to

1:24:43

include as well , and the person

1:24:45

that runs the , the

1:24:48

not quite open source but nearly piece

1:24:50

of mailing list software that I use , has

1:24:53

misread what they've said

1:24:55

. And oh , it's just yeah

1:24:57

, so that's been a bundle of fun , but still

1:24:59

. But there we are , but apart from that , it's been lovely

1:25:01

.

1:25:02

You will survive .

1:25:03

You will survive . Yeah , and

1:25:05

looking forward to Sam being

1:25:07

here in Brisbane

1:25:10

for the first time next week , so that

1:25:12

should be good . We're all going

1:25:14

out for a beer on Thursday night . If

1:25:16

anybody else wants to join , then find the

1:25:18

Brisbane podcasters list on Facebook

1:25:21

and you can come along

1:25:23

as well , or just send me an email Then

1:25:25

. That's cool and that's it for this week . Thank

1:25:28

you to both of our guests , darrell and

1:25:30

to Claire . You can also listen to the pod

1:25:32

news daily and subscribe to the pod news newsletter

1:25:35

for more of these stories and other

1:25:37

things too .

1:25:38

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1:25:40

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1:25:49

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1:25:51

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1:26:25

That's horrible .