0:02

The podcast from centre

0:02

by young people for all people.

0:11

Centerpoint is the UK is leading

0:11

youth homelessness charity. At

0:16

centre point, we believe no

0:16

young person's life should be

0:20

defined by homelessness. We give

0:20

young people the support they

0:24

need to heal and grow no matter

0:24

what. for over 50 years, we've

0:28

been the centre point for

0:28

change, personal and political.

0:33

Everyone has their part to play.

0:33

With young people leading the

0:37

way. This podcast has been

0:37

created by young people with

0:41

lived experience of homelessness

0:41

will be shining a spotlight on

0:46

some of the issues that affect

0:46

us. We hope to challenge and

0:51

change some of the stereotypes

0:51

and bring others with us as part

0:55

of the movement to end youth

0:55

homelessness for good.

0:59

This episode has been recorded

0:59

on Zoom, which may affect the

1:03

quality of audio in places. Welcome to point made the new

1:06

sound point podcast by young

1:09

people for all people. I'm your

1:09

host, Andy Williams, say we're

1:13

going to talk about making work

1:13

pay for young people in support

1:17

and accommodation. So a little

1:17

bit of background about

1:20

yourself. I was street homeless

1:20

when I was 14 for two years. And

1:25

through that journey after I've

1:25

grown my family, I went on to a

1:29

support accommodation, which is

1:29

called sleep which is the

1:31

homeless young people service.

1:31

And on that I found that when I

1:36

was on the service, and that was

1:36

trying to help me look for a

1:38

job, when I was trying to find a

1:38

job, then that money it would

1:43

cost me to pay for the rent. For

1:43

what I was earning, I would have

1:46

found it really difficult. And

1:46

since I'm extremely passionate

1:51

about supporting young people,

1:51

and trying to make the changes,

1:55

help it easier for young people

1:55

who are in a homeless situation.

1:59

Hi, I'm Catherine abama

1:59

Centerpointe resident and peer

2:03

researcher. And today we'll be

2:03

looking at making work pay for

2:06

young people in supported

2:06

housing to mark the day of

2:08

social justice will be looking

2:08

at this railroad eyes as lived

2:12

experience of homelessness and

2:12

supported housing. I think it's

2:15

such an important topic to talk

2:15

about as young people have been

2:18

trapped into a poverty cycle,

2:18

which isn't right when we should

2:21

be looking at support and young

2:21

people's aspirations and job

2:23

opportunities as a root out of

2:23

homelessness and being trapped

2:26

in the benefit system, which I

2:26

believe isn't fit for modern

2:29

purpose and actually hinders

2:29

rather than helps. We've got

2:33

some really great speakers on

2:33

the panel today. So I'm gonna

2:36

let them introduce themselves. Hi, everyone. And um, yeah,

2:38

thanks, Daniel, for having me on

2:40

today. So my name is Billy

2:40

Harding. I am the policy

2:43

research manager here at

2:43

Centerpoint. I think it's a

2:46

really important discussion. I

2:46

mean, it's such an important

2:49

issue for so many of the young

2:49

people we support the issue

2:51

basically of how earnings affect

2:51

their benefit entitlements and

2:54

the situation that's going to

2:54

lead them in. What we see a

2:57

sense of point is I can really

2:57

limit young people's employment

3:00

opportunities, and even in some

3:00

cases, put young people off kind

3:03

of moving into work entirely,

3:03

and ultimately really kind of

3:05

makes the work that we do at

3:05

Centerpoint to help young move

3:08

young people into independence

3:08

much more difficult.

3:12

Hi, my name is Daniel Jamila. I

3:12

work for DePaul, and I'm head of

3:16

rough sleeping services. So

3:16

DePaul is a young person's

3:19

homelessness charity. And we

3:19

work across the UK. We've also

3:23

got lots of young people living

3:23

in our projects who, because of

3:27

the current system, because what

3:27

we have to discuss today

3:30

actually have to pay to work

3:30

more hours, which which can't be

3:33

white. Hello, yes, I'm Steven Chen.

3:34

Thank you for inviting me. I'm

3:37

the Member of Parliament for

3:37

East Ham. And I'm the chair of

3:41

the Work and Pensions Select

3:41

Committee in the House of

3:43

Commons which scrutinises on

3:43

behalf of Parliament, all the

3:47

things that the DWP does. And I

3:47

very much agree about the

3:52

importance of this, it's

3:52

obviously really important that

3:55

young people are able to get

3:55

into work for their own sakes,

4:00

but also for the sakes of

4:00

everybody else. And if we can

4:04

avoid people having unnecessary

4:04

problems and periods out of work

4:09

at the start of their working

4:09

lives, and that's a good thing

4:11

for everybody. Hi, I'm Tom. I'm a support

4:13

worker of work centre point

4:17

since around 2006 in various

4:17

kinds of roles. This has come up

4:21

as an issue a lot over that

4:21

period of time. So I'm yeah,

4:25

thanks for inviting me. And I'm

4:25

glad we were sitting here

4:28

talking about it. Hi, everyone. My name is

4:30

Shannon. I'm a former Senate

4:33

president and now I live in

4:33

independent living. So nice to

4:38

meet you guys. So together, we will look at how

4:39

the current system can act as a

4:42

barrier to a young person

4:42

seeking employment and moving on

4:46

from homelessness and examine

4:46

ways to improve that system for

4:49

young people. First, I'd like to invite Billy

4:50

harden to introduce the ideas

4:53

behind the campaign to make work

4:53

pay.

4:57

Thanks, guys. I shouldn't say

4:57

it's a really complicated issue,

4:59

but I'll try my best to explain

4:59

it as best as I can. Basically,

5:03

just to set out what the problem

5:03

is, you know, and why we think

5:05

it's such an important issue

5:05

that needs to be addressed for

5:08

the young people that we

5:08

support. So just as a bit of

5:10

background, so for most young

5:10

people living in supported

5:13

accommodation, if they don't

5:13

have any children or dependents,

5:16

so they don't have any disabilities or health issues, which affect their ability to

5:17

work, they'll be getting the

5:20

standard allowance of Universal

5:20

Credit, which is currently just

5:22

over 257 pounds a month, or

5:22

about 59 pound 40 a week. And

5:27

for young people in supported accommodation as well, their housing costs, so their rent

5:29

will still be supported through

5:32

housing the housing benefit

5:32

system, which is the old system.

5:35

So for most people, housing

5:35

benefits been replaced in recent

5:37

years by Universal Credit, which

5:37

has rolled most working age

5:40

benefits into one monthly

5:40

payment. But for some people

5:44

still living in some kinds of

5:44

accommodation, like supported or

5:46

temporary accommodation, their

5:46

rent is still paid through

5:49

housing benefit. And this is

5:49

mainly because of concerns

5:52

around you know, some of the

5:52

features of Universal Credit,

5:54

things like monthly payments,

5:54

direct payments, which you know,

5:57

people thought might not work so

5:57

well for people in supported

5:59

accommodation. So for your most

5:59

young people who aren't working,

6:03

so their housing costs supported

6:03

through housing benefit and

6:05

their day to day living costs

6:05

are supported through Universal

6:08

Credit. And as long as they're

6:08

getting some universal credit,

6:11

they receive the full Housing

6:11

Benefit Award, which means that

6:13

their rent should be met in

6:13

full. Even if someone's only

6:16

receiving a small amount of Universal Credit because they are working. As long as they're

6:18

getting some, they'll still get

6:20

the full Housing Benefit award.

6:20

However, what we see is that the

6:24

problem arises once a young

6:24

person earns enough to come off

6:26

Universal Credit. So Universal

6:26

Credit is tapered, so for every

6:29

pound that's earned from work,

6:29

your universal credit was

6:32

reduced by 55. P, until the

6:32

point were you earning enough to

6:35

cover for Universal Credit

6:35

entirely. So this is kind of key

6:39

to the design and the ethos

6:39

behind Universal Credit. So

6:42

there's a smooth transition from

6:42

benefits into employment, which

6:45

is kind of unlike the previous

6:45

benefit systems where there were

6:47

quite a few steep cut off points

6:47

are kind of drops in income

6:50

depending on how much you're

6:50

earning. So once a young person

6:53

supported accommodation, and

6:53

just over 468 pounds a month, or

6:57

around 108 pounds a week, they

6:57

come off Universal Credit

7:00

entirely because their earnings

7:00

taper they're awarded down to

7:03

zero. This means working about

7:03

13 hours a week national minimum

7:06

wage for a 21 year old. So you

7:06

know not significant necessarily

7:10

about work at all. The point at

7:10

which does take us to zero for

7:13

young people is lower as well,

7:13

for young people in supported

7:16

accommodation, because they're

7:16

only receiving the standard

7:19

allowance for Universal Credit.

7:19

And because they're under 25.

7:23

Their award is also

7:23

significantly lower. So once

7:26

this happens, they're no longer

7:26

entitled to a full Housing

7:29

Benefit award. And their

7:29

entitlement is recalculated

7:31

under the Housing Benefit rules,

7:31

which are less generous and kind

7:34

of less aiming around supporting

7:34

people to move into work. And to

7:38

kind of their benefits withdrawn

7:38

at a higher rate. This means

7:41

that young people earning over

7:41

this 108 pounds a week actually

7:44

start seeing a drop in their

7:44

overall income. And they have to

7:46

work about an additional nine or

7:46

10 hours to actually get back to

7:49

that spot. So basically, what we

7:49

see is kind of going above this

7:52

point, actually young people

7:52

worse off in some situations. So

7:55

even though young person will always be earning more than if they aren't working at all. And

7:57

there's little incentive really

7:59

to work more than this 13 or so

7:59

hours. So we've recently done

8:03

some research we surveyed over

8:03

200, young people could

8:06

experience homelessness across

8:06

the UK. And we found that almost

8:08

half of them said that they

8:08

hadn't taken a job or hadn't

8:11

looked more hours. And because

8:11

of the impact it would have on

8:13

their benefits. What we also see

8:13

as well. And since when it's

8:17

when young people do it, then

8:17

above this amount, they can find

8:20

themselves having to spend the majority of their earnings on their housing costs. Basically

8:22

everything they're earning is

8:24

going on to their rent. And in

8:24

many cases, we see young people

8:27

running into rent arrears and

8:27

debts, particularly for young

8:29

people with changing hours, such

8:29

as those and flexible and zero

8:32

hours contracts, you know,

8:32

really find themselves falling

8:34

foul of these rules, finding

8:34

themselves worse off, because

8:37

they're working more hours.

8:37

They're also just to say that

8:40

young people are also in

8:40

supported accommodation or a

8:42

disadvantage compared to those

8:42

who aren't in supported

8:45

accommodation. Because you know,

8:45

these people aren't facing this

8:48

higher type rate and housing

8:48

benefit. So basically, we just

8:50

think this is a really unfair

8:50

and really complicated situation

8:53

for young people. And just to

8:53

say, as well, you know, these

8:56

young people have been through

8:56

so much, you know, still going

8:58

through so much in terms of, you

8:58

know, significant trauma and

9:01

hardship means that, you know,

9:01

every young person is different,

9:03

and you know, many young people

9:03

perhaps won't, you won't be in a

9:05

position to be able to look for

9:05

work, you know, but for those

9:08

that can and those who want to

9:08

work, many Western still need

9:11

the extra supports can have

9:11

access and sustain work and

9:14

education opportunities. And,

9:14

you know, we just think that the

9:17

benefit system should be there

9:17

to help these young people but

9:19

instead, you know, kind of adds

9:19

another barrier to a group of

9:22

people who already face

9:22

significant barriers to

9:24

accessing employment. So I'll

9:24

also talk a bit about the

9:26

solutions but appreciate I've

9:26

waffled on a bit here. So happy

9:30

to throw it out to the to the

9:30

room.

9:34

I'd like to invite Shannon to

9:34

speak about how it affected her

9:39

for the system. Um, yeah. So as a young person

9:41

that's gone through supported

9:44

housing and I have been on

9:44

housing benefits or just

9:47

benefits in general. And from my

9:47

personal experience, I felt like

9:51

it was kind of like a trap you

9:51

know, like you're either all the

9:54

way in all the way out there's

9:54

there's no in between if you

9:57

want to work overfed, you know

9:57

So hours, then it kind of feels

10:02

like you're in it on by

10:02

yourself, you know that there's

10:04

no outside support. Or if I go

10:04

the other way, and I'm on

10:09

benefits, and I decide not to

10:09

work them, I still don't have

10:12

enough to support myself. I

10:12

don't feel really that support

10:15

it. There's no like, middle

10:15

ground, you know, for young

10:18

people, it's, it puts you in a

10:18

tight spot, you know, no matter

10:20

where you choose to go, you

10:20

know, like, a lot of these young

10:23

people are not there by choice,

10:23

you know, they didn't put

10:25

themselves in this circumstance.

10:25

So to feel unsupported. Or even

10:30

if a young person is motivated

10:30

enough to go and want to work,

10:33

they then feel like they can't,

10:33

you know, because it's, it's not

10:36

worth it, you know? So that's

10:36

just my personal opinion and my

10:39

experience. Thanks, Shannon. And this is Dan

10:41

from DePaul here, I just just

10:45

picking up on a few points you

10:45

mentioned there, I think young

10:48

people are homeless generally

10:48

have been let down by people who

10:51

should be looking out for them.

10:51

We're talking about young people

10:54

hear people who often are very

10:54

independent, very streetwise,

10:58

we've got a very sound head on

10:58

their shoulders, but actually

11:00

need a bit of support, like we

11:00

all do. But you know, often for

11:04

a young person to end up without

11:04

home, they've been let down by

11:07

public services, maybe schools,

11:07

social workers, or actually,

11:12

sometimes by their own friends

11:12

and family. And this is just

11:15

another case of young people

11:15

who've been often being let down

11:19

before being let down again,

11:19

Universal Credit was bought in

11:23

as other guests have said to

11:23

make work pay. And to be fair to

11:27

the government, in most cases it

11:27

does. But for this group of

11:30

young people who've already been

11:30

through so much, if they're

11:33

upping their hours, they're

11:33

actually having to pay more than

11:36

they're getting for the extra

11:36

hours. So it just makes no

11:39

sense. It wasn't designed to be

11:39

like this. It's sort of a design

11:43

flaw. I don't think anyone

11:43

intended for this to happen. So

11:46

I just really hope that Stephen

11:46

and his parliamentary colleagues

11:50

can work with government. So

11:50

this is addressed.

11:53

Yeah, well, I very much agree

11:53

with Dan, that this does need to

11:57

be addressed and changed. I

11:57

wanted just to check with Billy

12:00

about the background to this,

12:00

because my recollection is that

12:04

when Universal Credit was

12:04

introduced, and that was over 10

12:09

years ago, now the idea was

12:09

first announced, and all the

12:12

papers were set out about it.

12:12

And let's be fair, there were

12:16

good reasons for doing it.

12:16

Because the benefit system was

12:19

very complicated. There were

12:19

lots of different things and

12:21

putting them all together in one

12:21

benefit. Universal Credit did

12:25

have some advantages. But I

12:25

think the original idea was that

12:31

supported accommodation was

12:31

going to be paid for through

12:33

Universal Credit as well. And

12:33

unfortunately, it that didn't

12:38

work. I remember lots of

12:38

discussions a few years ago,

12:43

with people responsible, for

12:43

example, for refugees, and other

12:48

kinds of supported

12:48

accommodation, where it became

12:51

clear that because of the way

12:51

that Universal Credit has been

12:54

set up, and it's a pretty

12:54

inflexible setup, it just

12:58

wouldn't work for supported

12:58

accommodation. So eventually,

13:01

the government made a

13:01

concession. And they said, We

13:06

will keep housing benefit for

13:06

supported accommodation. And

13:09

most people, I think, breathe a

13:09

sigh of relief when they made

13:13

that announcement. And I'd be

13:13

interested to know from Billy,

13:16

whether Centerpointe was pleased

13:16

about that, that change or not,

13:19

but it's clearly left us with

13:19

this problem, that you've got a

13:23

different type of rates in

13:23

housing benefit from the one in

13:26

Universal Credit. And it is

13:26

clearly absurd, that people are

13:31

going to end up getting a lower

13:31

income for working more, that's

13:35

diametrically the opposite of

13:35

what Universal Credit is

13:38

supposed to do. So am I am I

13:38

right video about the kind of

13:42

background to how this has come about? Yeah, I think you're right,

13:45

Steven. So I think this debate

13:48

was going back a few years. And

13:48

when it was proposed that all

13:51

housing including supported

13:51

housing, and as well as things

13:54

like your refuges, temporary

13:54

accommodation will be moved into

13:57

the universal credit system. But

13:57

I think, you know, what is seen

13:59

as some of the key features of

13:59

Universal Credit, you know, the

14:02

the monthly payments, payments

14:02

directly to individuals, in most

14:05

cases, there are real concerns,

14:05

you know, this will lead to real

14:08

issues, you know, with the kind

14:08

of people having to manage that

14:10

monthly payment, and kind of

14:10

ensuring that those housing

14:13

costs are paid themselves. As

14:13

we've seen, in accommodation

14:16

beyond supported accommodation.

14:16

There has been real links kind

14:19

of with, you know, the rollout of Universal Credit and increased rates of rent arrears

14:20

and even homelessness. So I

14:24

think because of that, it was

14:24

decided that kind of best to

14:27

kind of keep the system within

14:27

housing benefit. But I think,

14:30

you know, we ended up with that result where we kind of have these two systems running side

14:32

by side, and they're kind of not

14:35

really calibrated together. One of the things that is a real

14:37

problem with Universal Credit, I

14:41

think, is the fact that when you

14:41

apply for Universal Credit, you

14:45

have to wait five weeks for your

14:45

first regular benefit payment.

14:50

They will give you an advance

14:50

earlier than that, but if they

14:53

give you an advance you then got

14:53

to pay it back over the

14:56

following year and a lot of

14:56

people start on Universal Credit

15:00

And they're straightaway in

15:00

debt. Because of that, and it's

15:03

once you're on Universal Credit

15:03

is really hard to get out of

15:07

those debts. So I think the fact

15:07

that the concession was made

15:12

that in the case of supported

15:12

accommodation, we'd stick with

15:14

housing benefit. That was a

15:14

welcome concession that the

15:18

government made, but in a way,

15:18

it might be better if they

15:21

solved these problems with

15:21

Universal Credit, rather than

15:25

trying to stick with the old

15:25

system. But one way or another,

15:28

we clearly do need a solution.

15:28

And it's something that that my

15:33

select committee ought to be looking into. And slides come in there,

15:35

Stephen as of yet, I mean,

15:37

there, there are lots of

15:37

problems of Universal Credit,

15:40

not least a five week wait for

15:40

first payments. And, again, it's

15:44

another example of how something

15:44

hasn't really been designed with

15:48

young homeless people, actually

15:48

lots of young people in mind. So

15:52

we have young people in our

15:52

project to partly because of the

15:55

five week wait have 10 pounds a

15:55

week as a food budget, which is

15:59

extremely hard to live on. And

15:59

your rice is completely absurd.

16:04

And I do think the benefit

16:04

system, especially when you're

16:07

changing, it can get fiendishly

16:07

complicated and complex. And

16:11

this is a case of things not

16:11

being thought through, which you

16:15

could almost give the government

16:15

a bit of slack from because it

16:17

is just so complicated. But

16:17

well, now we know we have been

16:21

talking to the government about

16:21

this. So they do know it is an

16:24

issue, I think we're really

16:24

looking for government to sort

16:26

this out. And we'll go on to

16:26

its, they would need to change a

16:29

few things. But it's not going

16:29

to be hugely expensive. And the

16:32

impact this is having at the

16:32

moment on young people, it's

16:35

extreme, it's stopping people,

16:35

young people getting on with

16:38

their lives. And I would just

16:38

say most, most young people in

16:41

our projects are really

16:41

desperate to work. Actually, if

16:44

they are able to work, I'd much

16:44

prefer to do so. But they're in

16:48

a situation where if they do

16:48

start working, once you add in

16:50

travel costs, things like

16:50

uniform to actually be worse

16:53

often work because of this. So

16:53

it really would like to the

16:56

government address this quite quickly. It's also very much in the

16:58

government's interests that they

17:00

should address it because the

17:00

big problem the government has

17:02

got at the moment is lots of

17:02

unfilled vacancies, so that the

17:07

government desperately needs to

17:07

find ways of encouraging people

17:12

to take up the vacancies that

17:12

are available. Clearly, there

17:16

are lots of young people who, as

17:16

you say, are only too eager to

17:20

work, if they're given a

17:20

reasonable chance.

17:24

I'd agree with that. And I just

17:24

want to make the point that, you

17:27

know, if we're wanting young

17:27

people to go into work, we need

17:31

job security, zero contracts,

17:31

just horrendous. And, and it's

17:35

really scary for people, my

17:35

experience is a bit different.

17:39

I'm on disability benefits due

17:39

to really poor mental health. So

17:43

I haven't been stung with

17:43

Universal Credit yet. I'm not

17:46

looking forward to that at all.

17:46

What worries me is say if I did

17:51

get into work, like all my

17:51

housing benefit will be taken

17:55

off me my you know, disability

17:55

benefit will be taken off the

17:58

ESA will be taken off me and I'd

17:58

be back to square one. But if I

18:02

have a mental health breakdown,

18:02

I'll have to reapply for

18:04

everything whilst also losing my

18:04

house in the process, because I

18:08

wouldn't be able to afford the

18:08

rent. I think a lot of people

18:11

expect that you've got family to

18:11

fall back on, or you know,

18:14

savings to fall back on. But the

18:14

reality is on benefits, you have

18:19

no savings, you have no choice,

18:19

it's very much survival. And I

18:23

just like to make the point as

18:23

well about not just work, but

18:25

University, I'd love to go to

18:25

university, but housing benefit

18:29

would then not cover my rent.

18:29

I'm 28 now and I've run our

18:33

house and moved out of

18:33

accommodation, but I feel that

18:36

I'm just stuck in this position

18:36

where there's no real help for

18:39

me to get into work or to try

18:39

and you know better myself and

18:44

you know, young people have

18:44

aspirations, and I know there's

18:46

job vacancies that need to be

18:46

filled. But this you still have

18:49

to take into account that you

18:49

know, young people don't just

18:52

want to work in Poundland or

18:52

workers, a carer when the pain

18:56

is so poor, and what if they

18:56

want to do something else? So I

18:59

think, you know, rather than

18:59

stigmatise a whole group of

19:02

young people just because we're

19:02

homeless, and we're on benefits

19:05

doesn't mean that we don't have

19:05

aspirations and ambition. And I

19:08

just want to pass on to Tom, if

19:08

you got any comments. Hi,

19:12

thanks for that, Catherine. I

19:12

think he made some really good

19:14

points there. And I was talking

19:14

to one of my young people, they

19:17

might very similar points in

19:17

terms of work and sort of mental

19:21

health. And they said that

19:21

having a job would get me into a

19:25

better routine with my sleep,

19:25

and provide me with the

19:28

structure I need to better

19:28

regulate my mental health. I

19:32

just always wanted to make

19:32

another point, in terms of what

19:35

we're talking about housing

19:35

costs and Universal Credit is

19:39

one of the issues that the

19:39

housing costs are kept very,

19:43

very low, especially for young

19:43

people. The housing cost element

19:47

of Universal Credit would never

19:47

begin to reach that what the

19:51

actual cost is, I think I can shall the say. Long term

19:52

goals on apprenticeship and no

19:58

four pound 50 at the time And I

19:58

was promised that my housing

20:02

benefit would have been paid,

20:02

and I'd still receive some. And

20:06

because I was working away,

20:06

during my apprenticeship, all of

20:09

it got cancelled in every

20:09

informing suppliers. When I came

20:12

home, I'd lost everything

20:12

because I was earning a wage.

20:16

And because the amount of hours

20:16

I was doing just to make up a

20:19

livable wage, where I could

20:19

afford to, like, feed myself

20:23

each month, I was doing 40 hours

20:23

a week, but they didn't seem as

20:27

like vulnerable still, even I

20:27

was came from respite

20:30

accommodation to try and get

20:30

into the working life. And it'd

20:34

be good to see what Shannon has

20:34

to say about all of this

20:37

interviews, I was listening to us guys

20:38

points. And my point is very

20:42

similar to what you guys have to

20:42

say, as a young person, I

20:44

actually applied to go to uni, I

20:44

actually got accepted into uni.

20:48

But at the last minute, I was

20:48

told that I wouldn't be able to

20:51

go, and if I was, if I wanted to

20:51

go, then I would have to move

20:54

out of supported accommodation,

20:54

which I wouldn't have been able

20:57

to afford the rent, and I

20:57

wouldn't have been given like

21:00

any benefits either. So I really

21:00

do understand, and I can relate

21:04

to a lot of young people feeling

21:04

like, well, then what's the

21:07

point, if I can't do what I want

21:07

to do, and I can only do like,

21:11

the very minimum, you know, it's

21:11

very, I feel like it, it does

21:15

cut every young person, you

21:15

know, and it can affect mental

21:18

health and just being like,

21:18

motivated to get through the

21:21

day, you know, because as a

21:21

young person has lived off

21:24

benefits, you know, living day

21:24

to day without any sort of goal

21:29

or anything to work towards, you

21:29

know, a kind of a young person

21:32

very negatively. So I just like

21:32

I just agree with these guys,

21:35

what you have to say, because

21:35

I've you know, I've experienced

21:38

it, both sides, even working, I

21:38

did an apprenticeship instead.

21:44

Because that's the only way I

21:44

could actually do something

21:46

whilst living in supported

21:46

housing.

21:49

I think there's a sort of a

21:49

broader point here emerging from

21:52

young people who've lived it

21:52

that in lots of ways support and

21:55

accommodation is a little bit.

21:55

There are a lot I guess there

21:57

are lots of problems with it

21:57

really annoying to poor provide

22:00

supported accommodation. And

22:00

we're very aware that it's not a

22:03

perfect system. I mean, the good

22:03

news is the government is going

22:07

to is I think, looking at what

22:07

it can do to improve supported

22:10

accommodation. But I think we

22:10

can sit clearly see from this

22:13

discussion, that there's lots

22:13

that we need to look at in terms

22:16

of how supported accommodation

22:16

can actually help young people

22:20

progress in their lives. Because

22:20

it does seem to me that in some

22:23

ways, the system's doing the

22:23

opposite, which obviously is

22:26

isn't good for anyone. Dan, it's been so true about

22:27

what you've been saying. Tom,

22:30

would you like to pick up? Thank you, as you were speaking

22:31

about the experiences of Ben,

22:35

it's called housing and trying

22:35

to work it just again, when I

22:38

was speaking to one of my young

22:38

people earlier. And the quiet

22:41

that they gave me was, the

22:41

system tells you to work. But

22:45

then it makes it counterproductive to work if you're in support housing,

22:46

because if you lose your housing

22:49

costs, it's just impossible to

22:49

make the rent and an entry level

22:52

job. Do you know what I mean? So

22:52

this is the person who really

22:55

wants to work, but just feels as

22:55

everybody else is kind of

22:58

indicated, kind of trapped by

22:58

the system.

23:01

I really we've every what

23:01

they've been saying because it's

23:04

a lived experience from not just

23:04

from the young people, the

23:06

people that are tackling these

23:06

issues with the spider

23:09

combination being supportworks,

23:09

and stuff like that. While

23:13

everybody has been listening to

23:13

these how we had any thoughts

23:16

around how we could tackle these

23:16

on start making the change. I

23:20

want to jump Stephen Tim's. Thanks, Dan, I wanted to pick up

23:21

the point that Catherine made

23:24

about zero hours contracts,

23:24

because that's one of the issues

23:27

that young people face at the

23:27

moment. And I think the gig

23:31

economy is going to become a

23:31

bigger issue in the future, even

23:35

more than it is now. So one of

23:35

the things my select committee

23:38

has recommended is that the

23:38

government needs to introduce a

23:41

new employment bill so that the

23:41

rights of people working in the

23:46

gig economy are clear, because

23:46

at the moment, they're not at

23:49

all clear. Recently, Uber has

23:49

lost a big court case. And in

23:56

the on the back of that they've

23:56

entered into a negotiation and

24:00

reached an agreement with the

24:00

GMB trade union. And for the

24:03

first time people working for

24:03

Uber now get holiday pay, they

24:08

get a guaranteed minimum wage

24:08

and other benefits which

24:13

everyone else takes for granted.

24:13

But it's kind of being left for

24:17

individual employers and groups

24:17

of workers to slug it out if

24:20

necessary. In the courts, it

24:20

shouldn't be like that it should

24:23

be spelled out in law, that if

24:23

you're working in the gig

24:26

economy, you have the following

24:26

rights that you can be

24:29

absolutely confident of. And if

24:29

they did that, I think young

24:33

people and others would be more

24:33

confident about taking up some

24:36

of the roles that are available. Does anybody have any thoughts

24:38

about what Steven was saying? or

24:41

have any ideas around industry

24:41

that the gig economy is a big

24:45

thing? I want to pass on to Bill

24:45

Hart and I want to put you on

24:47

the spot. I agree completely. I think what

24:48

we've seen at centre point is

24:51

you know, young people working

24:51

in the gig economy having those

24:53

fluctuating hours. I think a

24:53

it's just gonna be really

24:56

confusing to work out what is

24:56

that? That sweet spot about how

25:00

How much they can add each week

25:00

and you know, not kind of find

25:02

themselves running into rent

25:02

arrears having to, you know,

25:04

really start contributing

25:04

towards their housing costs.

25:07

Yeah, increasing kind of job

25:07

security and quality in that

25:10

sector as well. We're also

25:10

really, really benefit young

25:13

people. But I don't know if it's

25:13

useful for me to talk a bit

25:15

about some solutions that we've

25:15

previously we'd kind of

25:18

discussed that centre point, I

25:18

mean, one solution would be to

25:21

kind of look at the entire

25:21

supported housing sector, from

25:24

the beginning and kind of, you

25:24

know, overhaul it to kind of

25:26

ensure it is working most

25:26

effectively. And I think that's

25:29

definitely one option. But now,

25:29

we will be looking at some I

25:32

think quick fixes, we think that

25:32

could work within the existing

25:35

benefit system really kind of

25:35

helped to address a speak these

25:38

for young people. So the first

25:38

of those be to look at Universal

25:41

Credit. And it kind of

25:41

reintroduce what's called a work

25:44

allowance to the Universal

25:44

Credit. So for certain groups of

25:46

people on Universal Credit, such

25:46

as those with health conditions,

25:50

or caring responsibilities, I

25:50

get this thing called a work

25:52

allowance, which means they can

25:52

earn a bit more before their

25:55

Universal Credit award is

25:55

reduced. And this is kind of has

25:58

the objective of supporting

25:58

people that might find it harder

26:01

to access employment of into

26:01

work, when we think you know,

26:04

young people in support,

26:04

accommodation definitely kind of

26:06

fit into a category of people

26:06

that need that support. So we

26:09

think that introducing a work

26:09

allowance will kind of allow you

26:12

to earn more before the other

26:12

entitlements were affected. And

26:15

then the other option we looked

26:15

at could we be would be through

26:18

tweaks to housing benefits to

26:18

the old system. First, it would

26:21

be to reduce the taper rate. So

26:21

the current taper rate within

26:24

housing benefit is much higher

26:24

than under Universal Credit,

26:27

which is part of the reason why

26:27

there's such a steep cutoff

26:29

point when a young person who

26:29

reflexively moves from one

26:32

system on to the other. So you

26:32

think kind of reducing the tape

26:35

rate in line with Universal

26:35

Credit, we help to smooth out

26:37

that transition, but also

26:37

increasing what's called the

26:40

applicable amount similarly,

26:40

would have the impact of

26:42

allowing a young person to earn

26:42

a bit more before their

26:44

entitlements are affected, and

26:44

ready to kind of smooth it out.

26:47

There is no kind of steep cuts

26:47

off point between Universal

26:50

Credit and housing benefit. And

26:50

young people aren't kind of

26:52

faced with that situation of

26:52

actually losing money, because

26:55

they're working more. I agree completely with what

26:57

Billy said, I think one idea

27:01

would be to just get rid of

27:01

housing benefit in supported

27:04

accommodation, put everything

27:04

into Universal Credit, bizarrely

27:07

for something that's new and

27:07

Universal Credit isn't quite

27:11

responsive enough. So we do get

27:11

young people staying in our

27:14

supported accommodation for a

27:14

few weeks at a time, maybe

27:17

moving out during the initial

27:17

five week wait, which can make

27:21

things incredibly complicated

27:21

for everyone involved? I think

27:24

that he's right there, I think

27:24

the answer is with housing

27:27

benefit. This is affecting 1000s

27:27

of people who've already had a

27:31

lot of knocks in their life

27:31

every year, we think it probably

27:34

could be fixed, Billy might know

27:34

better numbers than I do. But

27:37

we're looking at maybe one 2

27:37

million pounds a year, this

27:40

would cost 2 million pounds here

27:40

is a lot of money. But when we

27:45

look at the impact this could

27:45

have on 1000s of people's young

27:48

lives, it's really not that

27:48

much. It's a sort of thing that

27:52

in central government

27:52

departments wouldn't be hugely

27:55

difficult to do, it just takes a

27:55

little bit of political well,

27:59

just to quickly come back on

27:59

that dance. So as part of some

28:02

recent research, we did looking

28:02

at young people's experiences.

28:05

The other benefit system, which

28:05

is our peer research project,

28:08

with some of the some of the

28:08

people on this call kind of

28:10

really got involved with, I

28:10

spoke to zero consulting, who

28:13

were an independent economics

28:13

agency to kind of look at how

28:16

much it would cost to bring

28:16

these, these reforms into the

28:19

benefit system. And what we

28:19

found is that actually be kind

28:21

of a net positive when taking

28:21

into account the kind of the

28:23

additional benefits from young

28:23

people moving into work. So

28:26

they're kind of additional taxes

28:26

inclined to support that

28:30

wouldn't need from wider public

28:30

services. So we found that kind

28:33

of to reinstate the work about

28:33

then Universal Credit, this

28:36

could lead to an annual net

28:36

impact of over kind of 8 million

28:38

pounds a year positive to the

28:38

government. And then similarly,

28:42

kind of increasing the

28:42

applicable amount been housing

28:44

benefit would decrease would

28:44

increase government revenues by

28:47

2 million. So it's definitely no

28:47

real advantage to kind of help

28:50

young people move into work. And

28:50

we've really managed to know not

28:53

just support those young people

28:53

themselves, but really good

28:55

positives to wider society. On us kufrin Do you feel these

28:58

solutions would work so far?

29:01

Yeah, definitely agree with everything that's

29:02

been said. I think it's very

29:06

difficult to kind of get it, I

29:06

suppose. I think with the

29:10

university thing, I think maybe

29:10

if you are living in supported

29:13

housing, or you are leaving care

29:13

or something like that, there

29:16

should be a bit of a package to

29:16

surround you to support you to

29:21

maintain your housing benefit.

29:21

Because obviously, you come in

29:24

from a disadvantage anyway. I

29:24

know there's maintenance grants

29:28

and stuff like that, but maybe

29:28

we could be looking at, you

29:30

know, if you went from living

29:30

independently on a very low

29:33

income, and more chances and

29:33

opportunities for education and

29:36

training. Not gonna follow this.

29:40

Yes, I was going to ask Billy,

29:40

if if you could send me you

29:45

know, on paper, the the ideas

29:45

that you've described, it sounds

29:50

like very promising ideas to me,

29:50

and also the research that

29:54

you've had undertaken as well,

29:54

because the select committee is

29:58

going to be looking at It's the

29:58

government's plan for jobs, as

30:02

they call it in this coming

30:02

year, and what's going on in the

30:05

labour market. And the issues

30:05

that we've talked about in this

30:08

discussion, I think could be an

30:08

important element in that,

30:11

because the whole idea is to try

30:11

and make sure that everybody can

30:15

get into work. And here, there's

30:15

a serious obstacle, which ought

30:20

not to be there. So if you were

30:20

able to send me that, I'd be

30:23

very keen to have a look at it

30:23

and either get the whole

30:26

committee to have a look at it.

30:26

Or another possibility would be

30:29

for me to write to the minister

30:29

as chair of the Select Committee

30:32

and say, Look, there's a problem

30:32

here, and here are some ideas

30:35

for what you could do about it.

30:35

What do you think and see what

30:38

they say? Yeah, we'd be more than happy to

30:39

send everything over any kind of

30:43

your further evidence or, you

30:43

know, meetings be useful. I

30:46

think, me and the kind of the

30:46

tip here research, and

30:48

everyone's more than happy to

30:48

support how we can

30:51

help manage your view on this, I

30:51

see where your hand up. And

30:54

yeah, just to mention, when I was

30:55

talking about this issue with

30:57

the young person this morning,

30:57

their suggestion was actually a

31:01

taper on the housing benefit.

31:01

And that guess was, it would

31:06

probably save the government

31:06

money as well. So it seems like

31:09

a bit of a no brainer. I definitely agree with the

31:13

points that you guys have made

31:15

us any sort of support that can

31:15

be given to young people in

31:18

supported housing would be better than non you know, because young people I feel like

31:20

for my own experience, when I

31:23

was living through it, i not i

31:23

didn't feel really unsupported.

31:27

But I felt like there was no hope, you know, that there was no one really listening. And

31:29

that also an understanding what

31:32

we were going through. So if

31:32

there's plans in place, and it

31:35

just it does really help the

31:35

podcast from centre by young

31:41

people, for all people. To thank everyone, for joining

31:45

today, I think it's been a

31:48

really, really good and vital

31:48

discussion that we need to be

31:51

having. I think we need to be

31:51

talking a lot more about it, and

31:54

especially if we can get some

31:54

impacts on the back of it. And

31:57

these are what these podcasts

31:57

are about, really for young

32:00

people really really voicing

32:00

their opinions and voicing the

32:03

struggles that they face, which

32:03

can be hidden quite a lot of the

32:07

time. We talk about the hidden

32:07

homeless, but you know, we are

32:10

living it, we're experiencing

32:10

it. And we are trying to make a

32:13

change. So I just want to

32:13

really, really thank everyone

32:16

for taking the time today and

32:16

being here. It's been amazing.

32:21

If you want more information

32:21

about Universal Credit, then

32:24

visit our blog at

32:24

www.centerpointe.org/blog. Don't

32:31

forget Centerpoint offers free

32:31

advice via the centerpoint

32:35

helpline to anyone aged 16 to

32:35

25. who is homeless or at risk

32:41

of homelessness. Call us free on

32:41

Oh 808-800-0661 We're open

32:51

Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. You

32:51

can also leave us a message on

32:57

our website at

32:57

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33:04

homelessness slash get help now.

33:04

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33:11

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