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1:49

When I watched Michelle O'Neill become the

1:51

new First Minister of Northern Ireland, what

1:54

I thought was remarkable was

1:56

how little fuss there was about it. I

1:59

thought back to the conversation. had had with

2:01

her here on political thinking back in 2021

2:03

about her roots, about

2:06

coming from a family steeped

2:09

in the blood and the trauma of

2:11

what is euphemistically called the troubles.

2:14

The troubles, let's remember, led to the deaths of

2:16

more than three and a half thousand people over

2:19

30 years. That is the

2:21

equivalent of over a hundred

2:24

thousand people if the bombing and

2:26

the shootings had happened on

2:28

the mainland in Britain. What

2:30

makes Michelle O'Neill so remarkable is

2:32

that her father was an IRA

2:35

man interned in prison at the

2:37

height of the troubles. Her cousin

2:39

was shot by the security services.

2:42

Back in 2021 when we spoke she

2:44

was deputy to a

2:46

Unionist First Minister Arlene Foster whose

2:49

own father and RUC

2:51

police officer had been shot, shot

2:54

through the door of the family home by

2:57

the IRA. His daughter

2:59

watched as he crawled

3:02

into the kitchen covered in

3:04

blood. It is these stories

3:06

that reveal how far Northern

3:08

Ireland has come. It should

3:10

perhaps be a cause of celebration that

3:13

the elevation of Michelle O'Neill is

3:15

no longer seen as remarkable. It

3:18

explains the significance though of people

3:21

referring to her as the first

3:23

Republican to lead Northern Ireland. She's

3:25

also the first nationalist to lead

3:27

it, the first in other words

3:29

who wants to see the border

3:32

disappear between North and South and

3:35

Ireland united in her

3:37

lifetime. I'm hoping to

3:39

talk to her again on political thinking about how

3:41

she sees the future but in

3:43

the meantime I thought it was worthwhile

3:45

revisiting part of our

3:47

previous conversation recorded during lockdown which

3:49

tells you so much about why

3:52

Michelle O'Neill matters whether

3:54

you live in Belfast or Birmingham, Bangor

3:57

or Banff. 1977

4:00

so you're born right into the

4:03

the height of the conflict and you know it's

4:05

a very challenging time a very difficult time and

4:08

probably what I perceive to be

4:10

normal childhood you wouldn't expect anybody else

4:12

in today's standards to live through that.

4:14

So you're growing up in a as

4:17

a nationalist as a republican you're growing up

4:19

in a system of discrimination you're growing up

4:21

in a system where

4:25

you know the norm for me growing up

4:27

were for example early morning raids the British

4:29

army coming into my home and you

4:32

know searching through our home that my father

4:34

would have been arrested on many occasions and

4:37

you know so all those things really impact on

4:39

you as an individual and at the time probably

4:41

we just didn't know any difference but certainly on

4:44

reflection now and my old years I look back and

4:46

I think my goodness no child should ever

4:48

have to go through and the experience

4:50

that I had growing up and my brother

4:52

had growing up particularly in our home and then obviously not

4:55

just us many many others like us. Was

4:57

it a childhood of fear? I know

5:00

I had a lovely childhood in terms of my own

5:02

you know experience at home and the only is myself

5:04

and my brothers and we're very close and and I'm

5:06

very grateful for that so I

5:09

can't say it was a childhood of fear but it was

5:11

certainly was something that a

5:14

life that I wouldn't wish for my children

5:16

my grandchildren in terms of

5:18

just growing up with the normal like

5:20

it was normal practice to walk up

5:23

the street and walk into British army

5:25

patrols you know heavily militarised society and

5:28

as I said the experience of

5:30

nationalists was of discrimination no housing

5:32

no jobs all those things had

5:34

a huge impact on shaping many people's

5:36

outlook on this. And can you explain

5:38

it to your children growing

5:41

up now do you think probably even harder

5:43

you would be able to

5:45

explain it to their children or someone

5:47

of that generation in the future or

5:50

do you think people will look at you

5:52

and say what on earth are you talking

5:54

about I mean soldiers bombs guns just

5:57

in a normal part of Ireland. I

6:00

think it's because it's still relatively fresh

6:02

in people's minds. I don't think it's

6:04

that hard to describe. And I

6:07

think the implications of partition obviously

6:09

this year marks 100 years

6:11

since the item was partitioned. And that

6:13

again has focused a lot of conversation

6:15

and debate around the constitutional position, which

6:17

then invokes all the other things

6:19

that have come throughout that 100 years. So for

6:21

100 years, I think the partition of Ireland has

6:23

failed everybody, not just Nationalist and Republicans. It's failed

6:25

everybody. Be sure to decide. And I

6:27

think that the real

6:30

lived experience of generations

6:33

carries through. And it's

6:35

because the conflict is not that far

6:37

in the past. It still has an

6:39

intergenerational impact. So the experience

6:42

of grandparents has passed on to young

6:44

children. But my determination is that

6:47

the new generation will not fight the battles of the

6:49

past. We've tried to build something better. You obviously won't

6:51

celebrate that 100 year anniversary

6:53

as unionists do, which as you say adds

6:55

to the tension. But just taking

6:57

it back to your father, you were describing how the

7:00

army would come in, that he would

7:02

be hauled off. He was of

7:04

course interned in what some

7:06

call long cash, others call the

7:08

maze. Now he was released

7:10

before you were born. But

7:13

as a child growing up, what were you

7:15

told about his role? Did you

7:17

see him as a soldier, as a freedom

7:19

fighter, as the politician he later

7:22

became when like you, he was a counselor

7:24

in Sinn Fein. What did

7:26

you think of his past? He's

7:29

a very, he's obviously a very strong influence in

7:31

my life and who I've become. And I would

7:33

say mostly because of, I liked what he did

7:35

in society. I liked that he was a go

7:38

to person, that he helped the

7:40

community around us, that he was someone who put

7:42

others interests first. So he was trying to work

7:45

obviously as a Republican. He believed in, you

7:48

know, in Ireland he also was not someone, he didn't

7:50

go out and conflict, conflict came to hear

7:52

to our shores. And

7:54

I think that so for all the

7:56

roles that my father has played and through

7:58

his life, I did play through it. his life.

8:02

I'm very grateful of the person that he was and very

8:04

grateful for what he passed on to me in terms of my

8:07

understanding and my outlook on life. But

8:09

he very much influenced, I suppose, my journey

8:11

into politics because he was

8:13

an activist, first and foremost,

8:15

he was a community activist. And I

8:18

really, really loved that that's the person that he was. And

8:20

I think then one day I

8:22

realised that I just would naturally drift him

8:24

into community activism myself. And that's kind of

8:27

how my journey into political

8:29

life, elected life started. But as

8:31

you know, when you were very little, the

8:33

area you lived, County Tyrone, this was the

8:35

cauldron of what we euphemistically

8:37

call the troubles. I mean, this

8:39

was people losing their lives in large, large

8:41

numbers. There was a famously an ambush

8:44

killing of four British soldiers on

8:46

the Ballygolly Road in December 1979. Your

8:49

father was said to be part of

8:51

the East Tyrone Brigade without

8:54

getting into who did what, which you won't want

8:56

to talk about, I'm sure. Again,

8:58

I just wonder what you think of that

9:00

now. Is that something you think was necessary

9:03

at the time, made sense in that context?

9:05

Do you think now it's morally unacceptable?

9:08

What's your view of it? Well,

9:11

firstly, I wish that it never happened because I

9:13

think that the

9:15

experience of far too many people here

9:17

was one of loss, was one of imposition

9:21

on their everyday lives, was one of

9:23

discrimination. And you have to, you can't look

9:25

at the conflict and what happened here without looking at

9:27

it in its whole context. And the context was

9:30

actually partitioned and it was the fact that the

9:32

Northern State, North of

9:34

Ireland was built on division,

9:36

on sectarianism, on

9:39

inequality. A lot of those

9:41

things still exist today, however, we're in a

9:43

very different political position. And so I think

9:46

when you look back, it's really important

9:48

to reflect on the context of the

9:51

time. And as I said, no

9:53

one woke up here in the morning

9:55

decided let's go seek conflict. The conflict

9:57

came to Ireland, so I think. that

10:00

the job of my generation, if you

10:02

like, is to make sure that that

10:04

is never anybody's experience again, because of

10:07

all the hurt, all the

10:09

pain that was caused right across the board. And

10:12

I... You've often talked

10:14

to reconciliation. You've talked publicly, I've

10:16

heard you do that. And

10:19

yet Northern Ireland hasn't had anything like,

10:21

for example, South Africa had post-apartheid. There's

10:23

been no truth in reconciliation commission,

10:26

no opportunity for people to get that

10:28

hurt to tell their stories in public. I

10:31

just wonder, in a sense, you and Arlene Foster are

10:34

the perfect role models, not directly

10:36

involved but scarred by what happened.

10:38

Have you ever had that conversation

10:40

yourself about what you both went

10:42

through and tried to understand each

10:44

other's past? Yeah, I mean, we've...

10:47

We have at times, at different times talked about

10:49

different lived experiences. Just

10:52

in terms of your point around the South African

10:54

experience, that is exactly what would be... I

10:56

mean, I think it's a very interesting position that there should have been... That

10:58

should have been the exact approach that we've taken here. But

11:01

unfortunately, and this is one of the things that's

11:03

so frustrating about today and this

11:05

generation of people, is that post-conflict,

11:07

you have to adequately deal with the past in

11:09

order to allow people to move forward. And

11:12

the British government have blocked every mechanism

11:14

to deal with the past because they don't want

11:16

it to be exposed to what happened and what

11:18

they did here in Ireland. And that goes

11:20

to the heart of the British government's policy in terms

11:22

of legacy and dealing with the conflict and

11:25

the issues of the past. But doesn't dealing with

11:27

the past also require Sinn Féin, require

11:29

people like your own father,

11:31

if he was still here, to express regret,

11:35

to say, we did some

11:37

terrible, terrible things? And

11:40

Sinn Féin up till now have never, ever been

11:42

willing to do that, have they? I think that

11:44

we have engaged absolutely wholeheartedly actually in

11:46

the issue of dealing with the past

11:49

and Republicans will play their part in

11:51

terms of dealing with the past. We called

11:53

for the International Trade Commissions just like South

11:56

Africa. Five years ago,

11:58

there was an agreement struck across all political... parties

12:00

in two governments today with the past and the

12:02

British government have blocked it ever since.

12:04

So the only barrier to axiadically dealing

12:06

with the past is actually the British government. It's

12:08

not just the British or the Union is

12:11

saying this other critics in the UK media.

12:13

I mean the Mail once described your family

12:15

has been drenched in blood which I imagine

12:17

is a phrase you didn't much like when

12:20

it was issued but the Irish t-shirt

12:22

Mial Martin said Sinn Féin continued to

12:24

defend and endorse the atrocities of the

12:27

past. They suggest the IRA campaign in

12:29

40 years was somehow just. Was

12:31

it just? If you remember

12:34

that Mial Martin is a opposition party

12:36

and in terms of the

12:38

situation in the South Sinn

12:40

Féin are very

12:42

much in tune with the White Republic opinion so Mial

12:44

Martin would take any opportunity to take a swipe at

12:47

Sinn Féin but let's say with the past in a

12:49

holistic way I will play my part in

12:51

terms of healing the past I will play my

12:53

part in making sure that the conditions

12:56

of conflict never occur again. We have the

12:58

peace process, we have the Good Friday Agreement,

13:00

we have a way forward and

13:02

that's where we need to be focusing our efforts but

13:04

I would say this in terms of dealing with the past

13:06

it isn't just Sinn Féin's assertion

13:08

that the barrier to moving

13:10

forward is the British government.

13:12

That's also the view of the Irish government,

13:14

the Catholic Church and many many others who

13:17

know that the British government are in dangerous

13:19

territory and trying to cover up what happened

13:21

here. But just before we move on there

13:23

is a tendency to talk in generalities and

13:25

the only reason I'm asking you about your

13:28

family is because it starts with

13:30

people doesn't it? Now it's not just your

13:33

father the reason the mail said your

13:35

family was drenched in blood, your cousins

13:37

were both shot during

13:39

attacks on the British forces, your

13:42

uncle raised money for the IRA for

13:44

years as the leader of Nourade, your

13:46

family is absolutely staked

13:48

in Republican violence and

13:52

isn't it incumbent on you to say some

13:54

of this was wrong Morally wrong? I

13:57

understand why they did it, I understand their

13:59

history, I'm not. There were different but it

14:01

was wrong. Still, A thanks

14:03

across the boards and there are things that happened

14:05

that that I think everybody would say that were

14:07

am. Not that shouldn't have

14:10

happened on. I think that the. The.

14:12

Things I think the tendency all the same

14:14

as for to bring people back to the

14:16

politics. the condemnation. I don't think

14:18

that's helpful. I think it's you have to

14:20

understand the concept, snorted understand anything that happened

14:22

here. But I do think that there were

14:24

many wrongs on the on on many sides,

14:27

and I do think that we have a

14:29

moral obligation on Judy collectively. As a people

14:31

to trade mixture of the conditions never exist

14:33

again and that we build a better future

14:36

enough and cards at the heart of that.

14:38

And terms reconciliation has to be in the first

14:41

instance of. this is the only way to get

14:43

on to the point to reconciliation and the first

14:45

since as you have. To recognize. That

14:47

everybody's experience is different and the were going

14:49

to have to accept that you have to

14:51

respect the difference. There's different narratives of the

14:53

past mind that will be the same as

14:55

owning fosters, never will face with any direct

14:57

nice up north to have to try to

14:59

reconcile. Such. Talk about the way

15:01

forward. Now you've talked about this being

15:04

a decade of opportunity you meet. I

15:06

assume that using there is a real

15:08

jobs that in the next decade shouldn't

15:11

vain and others can secure what you

15:13

want School the bought a poll most

15:15

people would call a referendum on are

15:17

issued is using. There is a chance

15:20

that north and south of the border

15:22

the will be a vote on. Ending

15:25

the United Kingdom and about the United

15:27

on the road. Is and

15:29

I believe it's an even

15:31

more am possible. Nine. Given the

15:34

am I to walk into practice the

15:36

people here can say that. Despite

15:38

the fact that the majority. Of people here

15:40

on across from the death of voted or a again they're

15:42

being dragged out of the Edu against their wishes. Dot.

15:45

And itself and has others. And

15:48

become a topless to the conversation around. Your.

15:50

Neck, Maryland and I think or more people

15:52

on a concern the constitutional future. Because there's

15:55

a clear and choice so for people. That.

15:57

They have to decide to do they wish to be part of an

15:59

inward. Bragg, The Bretton. Or know toward

16:01

luck and inclusive Ireland and I think stopped as.

16:04

They. Probably the most exciting set up

16:06

a conversation of nice a foot here. And

16:08

if increase in actually every day as

16:11

I find us as a republican I

16:13

find quite an amazing to see. Than.

16:15

The numerous people don't know entered into the conversation.

16:17

Not a healthy thing because the softest. Mustn't.

16:20

My conversation with everybody conversation. The

16:23

question then I guess for shouldn't

16:25

say and he's what's the right

16:27

way to secure his do learn

16:29

a don't love what I say

16:31

This For the likes of Boris

16:33

Johnson and Michael Govan, Dominic Trimmings,

16:36

you win a referendum with a

16:38

pretty vague prospectus full of ideals

16:40

full of values but no detail

16:42

would you look at what happened

16:44

in the Scottish Referendum A what

16:46

may happen in another Scottish Referendum

16:48

quite seen A details prospectus notably

16:50

not detailed. Enough to win the

16:53

first time. but. What is

16:55

it you think you need to present to people? Lisa.

16:57

To learn the lessons from prices are not

17:00

to do some and seen a double the

17:02

a credible argument. For. Constitution She

17:04

ends. And. That includes exam than all

17:06

the facts and that's why we've made the call

17:08

of snow. Same for the Irish government to plan.

17:11

For. Your seen a day so started charging for people

17:13

in a very clear way. but all the information that

17:15

him a what does that look like What does the

17:17

health service up like. What? Does educational of

17:19

like an order? The economic. At.

17:21

The doesn't look like and I think the more information that

17:23

we can put into the public to me and I. L

17:26

A Simple to make informed decisions whenever

17:28

we actually. Get the chance to vote

17:30

which I do believe will be in the second we

17:32

have. Made him down

17:34

to myself and set at our stall in terms the

17:37

decade of opportunity. And for some

17:39

time now and we believe that this is nice.

17:41

Where. We are. So this is the time to

17:43

plan. But the there's a constitutional. And.

17:45

Part of the ask wasn't the plan for unity

17:47

and to actually. Encourages many people to

17:50

come into the conversation because certainly for me

17:52

see the United Ireland that I want to

17:54

achieve is not one for act for are

17:56

not the sort of public. And

17:59

ask me for everybody. There's a silent. including.

18:01

All those people who have a very strong precedented

18:03

a. Highly. Insured for stamps the

18:05

in accidentally live. Side. By side

18:08

of things respected. In. The middle

18:10

of of the new constitution position. Those.

18:12

The question that people like yourself in

18:14

leadership positions in some very normally I

18:16

saw no no escape. How to reassure

18:18

the Eunice seems to me go to

18:21

reassure people in the South in the

18:23

Republic. Who might say the last thing

18:25

we want to do is take that

18:27

problem on thank you very much indeed.

18:30

Would or should we expand our perfect

18:32

successful states that has transformed itself economically,

18:34

politically, socially in the last three years

18:36

and take on the land of the

18:38

troubles. Bringing. In People and bringing

18:41

it all that potential. Disagree with a

18:43

what happens if it's not the North

18:45

of says no to unity but the

18:47

South. All things

18:49

as I am tesla have left is

18:51

that success of and polls have shown

18:53

that there is a majority for an

18:56

invocation. In. The size of armed also,

18:58

so I think that's something. The. Bells on

19:00

I'm in your Direction Fan that whenever it comes

19:02

to the referendum across the has to be the

19:04

Good Friday agreement says after the. Concurrence:

19:07

And. Referendums. North and

19:09

site. So the job. Or ethnicity.

19:12

And is then set The people. Listen.

19:15

See this is the opportunity under

19:17

his Economic Opportunity. As well as. And

19:19

social and cultural opportunity but certainly am

19:21

again you must a columnist or internet

19:23

as a. At the conversation

19:25

again around the party that could come

19:28

from uniting as the country and. And.

19:30

Is a number of com are reports and and

19:32

public to me and I think that's gonna add

19:35

to. Their arguments for the constitution

19:37

seems unfair. Why? People want to vote

19:39

for you know they are Not Not just us,

19:41

not A Not Enough are unnecessarily to people. Who.

19:44

Are republican, are already convinced and talk with people.

19:46

Who are open to bank and

19:48

best know which insane have to

19:50

stop operating like if you'll forgive

19:53

the insults. Employs a real political

19:55

party. You're very centralized would you

19:57

became leader in the North. Even

20:00

election when you a challenge for the

20:02

leadership zone which itself was regarded as

20:05

pretty unusual. A remarkable. There were no

20:07

public debates, there were no discussions, there

20:09

were no major interviews. You operate still

20:12

like the Aussie to the I raised

20:14

from thirty years ago rather than other

20:16

open democratic political party that listens to

20:19

grocery store you with all due respect.

20:21

Unless. That's of I live

20:23

in artist and one that I would challenge

20:26

or on every occasion. Sensei.

20:28

And are upset at a party at yes I

20:30

have my platform as I hit at something are

20:32

setting a party with absenteeism, the lamp, and after

20:34

that and. We. Have answers almost

20:36

as a pencil. Across the country

20:39

we had mls city Senate or

20:41

anything. M M Pace.

20:43

And so this nonsense of let's

20:45

wait for since and transition them

20:47

for less a real success of

20:49

party is an absolute nonsense. When.

20:51

Did you loss of a big debate about

20:54

your leadership of future direction voting public that

20:56

people could watch follow on television and radio

20:58

and take both? It. Would. You know

21:00

who decides less of a sense Am At the

21:02

membership of Sense In and at Sam's you have

21:05

the debate about who should leave the party. And

21:07

as a matter of fact, That. Guess

21:09

the day that a rear as our our-our

21:11

party conference are pretty good. When you were

21:13

challenged, there were no hustings in public and

21:15

no major injuries. Would you change the leadership?

21:18

What? We are not there for entertainment for

21:20

the public. We're there to lead the party

21:22

and therefore the to be It should be

21:24

internal. And that was the decisions of the

21:27

leadership of the party and an aneurysm. That's

21:29

as much. As that the rights of

21:31

every political party besides hi they govern themselves

21:33

internally and stuff. That. We we

21:35

actually probably operates. And a far

21:37

more open web and said most of. The

21:39

parties insofar as we have a and are Korean have

21:41

selected by the membership of the party every year and

21:44

the was at that particular see the same. Rules.

21:46

That govern of the party so am I. Just

21:48

think it's a lazy to be. To be honest

21:50

I think off with the i'm such an effect

21:52

a better one. And in terms of may. Have

21:55

my own leadership because I hear

21:57

the thing about and pockets and

21:59

color. Mayor and only. Think that

22:01

a coffee so nuts and with

22:04

the success that am sensei and

22:06

probably are more. Democratic.

22:08

Entirely than any other organization that

22:10

I would certainly no. The workings

22:12

of do generally field that you

22:14

suffer misogyny. Absurdly asbestos or dental

22:17

as don't say one of the very

22:19

first images that. Was produced am

22:21

a social media that I saw after

22:23

I Am came into force after Martin.

22:26

And to some don't have Mart begins

22:28

at the standard for a picture of

22:30

me, injury out of school, could listen

22:32

to the image that anybody can decide

22:34

to and a woman and religious affairs

22:36

sorts neon daily basis of anyway and

22:38

but more probably more. So. Than

22:40

than than a lot, but damn, I find a

22:42

lot of the commentary quite. Often about women, litres

22:45

is pathogenicity in front of your royals around

22:47

about you and of course you'll hate this.

22:49

but it illustrates what you're saying. They said

22:51

to me what the big man says still

22:53

goes. The big memory

22:56

Gerry Adams go get us out of his

22:58

torso. Juri was the leader of

23:00

this at this party for so long,

23:02

but may I think they have transitioned

23:04

a leadership very successfully. melee valve they

23:06

didn't the party an intake, great electoral

23:08

stamps than Than and that. The Trifecta.

23:11

I'm here in the North also So

23:13

and Juri is a huge Republicans Iger

23:15

and in our world and all was

23:17

well baby. Not. That. The man

23:19

and play this race through the peace

23:21

process and then to recent years. So

23:23

I'm he. certainly. Has a role to

23:26

play into. The seats are there. Europe's.

23:28

You don't get to take part in the

23:30

celebrations over a hundred years of Northern Ireland,

23:32

but I wonder is there anything as human

23:34

being, not as a politician? About

23:37

movies in the new theme that you'd have

23:39

wanted to be the north you know except

23:41

that it ever should be great to be

23:43

living there that you think is better. That.

23:46

They got more rights than they have

23:48

in the Republican. you'd like to see

23:50

important. To. You know it, it on. well

23:53

i'm in one of the expense of they the

23:55

health service course you'd want that to carry on

23:57

there isn't the same approach to help than that

24:00

counties and that's something that certainly we

24:02

would want to change in government in a New Ireland.

24:04

You would have to have an Irish National Health Service

24:06

so if you want to take something that's

24:08

good in terms of what we have in the North if

24:10

they don't have in the South then that certainly would be

24:13

one thing that there is to build

24:15

on. Michelle O'Neill thank you very much indeed for

24:17

joining us on Political Thinking. Thank you very much.

24:20

Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of Political

24:22

Thinking from the archives and you can find similar

24:25

gems if you dig into the

24:27

archives on BBC Sounds. We're back

24:30

later this week with our next

24:32

guest, Shadow Justice Secretary, perhaps the

24:34

most prominent Muslim in Parliament, Shabana

24:36

Mahmood. Hope you'll listen then. The

24:40

post office horizon scandal has shocked Britain.

24:42

Post office IT scandal has had so

24:44

much good publicity over the last couple

24:46

of years. This is a scandal of

24:48

historic proportions. I've been following the story

24:50

for more than a decade. Hearing about

24:53

the suffering of postmasters like Joe Hamilton

24:55

and Alan Bates. It was just horrendous.

24:57

The whole thing was horrendous. I was told

25:00

you can't afford to take on post office.

25:02

And about their extraordinary fight

25:04

for justice. What was motivating

25:06

you? Well it was wrong, wasn't it? Listen

25:10

to the true story firsthand from the

25:12

people who lived it in the great

25:14

post office trial from BBC Radio 4

25:17

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