0:00

This is the BBC. Emma

0:30

Runswick has a life at the age of 28 of

0:32

causing trouble for causes

0:34

that she believes passionately in.

0:43

She is shaped also by

0:46

her experience and experience shared by so many

0:48

junior doctors of working on the

0:50

front line of the NHS during the pandemic,

0:54

of seeing so many people

0:57

die so traumatically.

1:00

Emma Runswick, welcome to Political Thinking.

1:03

Thank you for having me. You

1:05

are called many things and have been

1:08

since you took up this

1:10

post. Militant is one that keeps

1:12

coming up. Is that a

1:14

badge of pride or is it an insult from

1:16

the tabloid press? In some

1:19

ways it's a badge of pride

1:21

because what they mean by militant is

1:23

organised, consistent. It

1:25

means that I am one of the

1:28

many standing up for doctors and patients

1:30

in this country against a government

1:33

and an NHS situation which is very,

1:35

very difficult. So it's

1:37

not something that I might necessarily choose for myself,

1:40

but I'm not offended by it in any way.

1:43

There are other phrases. Ringleader

1:45

of a cabal of far

1:47

left medics. Mmm, interesting.

1:51

I mean I don't think that's necessarily

1:53

true. Am I left wing? Definitely. Are

1:56

there many of us? Yes, of course there

1:58

are. surprising

2:00

that many of us who

2:03

want to make the world a better place gravitate

2:05

towards our Trajanian and Professional Association, the purpose

2:07

of which is to enable us to

2:09

improve our lives and the lives of our

2:12

patients. I don't think that's surprising. So

2:15

yeah, again I'm not really bothered by

2:17

these ideas. If that's

2:19

what the right-wing press are going to use to

2:21

attack me, welcome. The other is leader

2:24

of a coup. Now to this point you don't

2:26

like the word coup but there was a conscious

2:28

decision wasn't there by you and the

2:30

people you worked with to change

2:33

the BMA, to change the British Medical Association.

2:35

What did you want to change? Yeah

2:37

absolutely. I mean the British Medical

2:39

Association is a long-standing organisation.

2:42

We've been a professional association

2:44

since 1832 and

2:47

a Trajanian since the 70s and we've been

2:50

very successful at a whole range of

2:52

things. Very historically the purpose of

2:55

the BMA was to set up a general medical

2:57

council to distinguish doctors from non-doctors

2:59

qualified people from non-qualified people

3:01

so that people could access good care

3:04

and be assured of that. More

3:07

recently we've been proponents of many, many

3:09

public health measures but

3:11

more recently the professional standing has

3:14

not been sufficient to shift the dial

3:16

to make change and we are also

3:19

a Trajanian. So whilst we can maintain

3:21

the excellence of our professional association work

3:23

we also need to learn to be

3:25

a better Trajanian. I'm interested

3:27

that you say that the professional

3:30

standing wasn't enough. Do

3:32

you think there's an old view, I suspect

3:34

you think it's an out of date view, that

3:38

simply being the doctor, the

3:40

doctor knows best, the respected figure

3:42

in the community or in the hospital

3:44

would be enough to get doctors what

3:46

they deserved? I think it's

3:49

an old view and it

3:51

has been a correct view. Through

3:54

many, many years it has

3:56

been sufficient. We have been listened

3:58

to as a profession. What No

4:00

Longer The case and we can see

4:02

the outcomes of that. You know the

4:05

Nhs is on it's knees, falling apart

4:07

in places, inadequate car and the kind

4:09

of care that we don't want to

4:11

be given to patients. Hundreds of people

4:13

die in a week according to the

4:15

rule Coaches emergency medicine because of delays

4:18

to treatments and and then with oversee

4:20

in in what society and in the

4:22

treatment of of doctors and medical students

4:24

are pay has fallen or conditions are

4:26

worsening. We're losing thousands of our colleagues

4:29

to abroad so I. Think it's obvious

4:31

that it's no longer and know and to

4:33

just say well on the doctrine I know

4:35

best. Said you and a group.

4:37

Known. As abroad Last decides that you can

4:40

run the be have a better than has

4:42

been wrong before you do and reliably goalies

4:44

of read runs with Emma Rubs which is

4:46

your name to the red is now is

4:48

what you mean. To. Change

4:51

it to wants to be

4:53

was. Yeah I mean I

4:55

say read in, haven't read in

4:58

politics. So reason because we have

5:00

learned our lessons from the rest

5:02

of the labor movement that if

5:05

you organize together if you collaborate.

5:07

If you do things that put your negotiating

5:10

partners under pressure to shift that position than

5:12

you are more effective and on that could

5:14

be anything it so it local level we've

5:16

had. Some success with just causing. Neeson

5:18

you know, on issues such as

5:20

making sure that you've got civilities

5:23

for hot food. it does not

5:25

take that lungs of using the

5:27

see sweet facilities, kitchen facilities before

5:29

they give you. Kitchen. Facilities

5:32

for a business always. Been

5:34

there is cause the slight nuisance or the other

5:36

under the spectrum of his li. We've got nice

5:38

in one strikeouts in to shift the government's position

5:41

on pay. And. I'm unions

5:43

Canucks, you know, right? Between those

5:45

different ends of the spectrum at every

5:47

level. In order to improve allies and

5:49

improve the launch of the patients will

5:51

cast. And now we're going to talk a lot more

5:53

about causing a lot more of a nuisance. Consider: you

5:55

got a new set of stories coming up that the

5:57

end of February. There have been a lot this year.

6:00

Three Thirty cause more than more the

6:02

nuisance. Before we move on they to

6:05

what the roots of your belief in

6:07

operating this way it seems to be

6:09

just confirmed on the descriptions and base.

6:11

He said the baby was a week

6:14

organization. Weird to take it over. I

6:16

organized effectively a takeover when our not

6:18

much of a professional association were old

6:20

style trading for doctors. I bet that

6:23

you disagree with isn't the squat lot

6:25

of I disagree. With that opioids I

6:27

don't think that the day and night with

6:29

necessarily week that will. Lots of things that

6:31

we were doing really well before I was

6:33

elected on. There were lots is individual that

6:35

see with him an incredible work on a

6:38

whole variety of issues. I was at

6:40

on the key issue. So on pay.

6:42

we weren't doing very well, but we

6:44

were doing very well on a whole

6:46

variety of other issues with have massive

6:48

progress or for example of them full

6:50

time doctors and the treatment that they

6:52

receive. And we've had massive progress on

6:54

all sorts of course you see for

6:56

example, so we will. We have been

6:58

making lots of progress. the Twenty Sixteen

7:00

contracts much maligned and for good reason

7:02

and. Did give us significant progress

7:04

on safety issues. It which is the

7:06

maximum number of hours for example that

7:09

we can. We can work now now

7:11

down to seventy two knows you look.

7:13

Out I usually will. the good things on

7:15

charges just sort of work at you. Took

7:17

a decision yet a long while. Some go

7:19

to other schools. a takeover. Because

7:23

something was going wrong. Young children

7:25

was so does. I mean as

7:28

lots of problems that have been inherent

7:30

to the Dhamma Eight for a long

7:32

long time and you know we've we've

7:34

had releasing see sexism and organization. we've

7:36

parts and what many members would call

7:38

say they have a contract reform and

7:40

we needed to be at a different

7:42

kind of organization. If we're gonna make

7:45

progress on pay for going to win

7:47

some members and then we need it's

7:49

is to have a shift in strategy.

7:51

An I and many others half

7:53

half impulse access to be tough.

7:56

To be tougher on that doesn't mean

7:58

leaving behind the professional association was at

8:00

all. In fact, I see that professional

8:02

association with has been pretty integral to

8:05

our you. Are unionist approach as well.

8:07

Now is in see to expel cause

8:09

you nuisance was being one way. Of

8:12

getting an important objective a

8:14

deep into this all your

8:16

life of noom partly because

8:18

your parents were for Adidas

8:20

are to do this. Now

8:22

retired yet and book. Very much so

8:24

so. I was racist and if a

8:26

family and. My mom was for

8:29

time that's president of P C S

8:31

Union. Pts is a Civil Servants of

8:33

Public Officials in yes absolutely and sized

8:36

my. Parents were actors both locally

8:38

and nationally. A naval working hard

8:40

for their members in his colleagues

8:42

on a personal case works when

8:44

somebody is in trouble and they

8:46

support that person. but also on

8:48

Classic Campaign. So I spent a

8:50

significant amount my childhood on marches

8:53

on picket lines. For him or

8:55

was the youngest, you think you were at

8:57

a protest or pick it up in a

8:59

bouquet. You. Know I went on

9:01

the the Dockers marches. When I was in

9:03

a bouquet and their pictures of me. Doing

9:06

not I was said and see trade union

9:08

conferences in in some cases actively to be

9:10

disruptive when when they were having arguments about

9:12

crush the cities and allowing parents to be

9:14

involved know I was cruel in down the

9:16

aisle because they were making the point that

9:19

they didn't really want children to be there

9:21

in the should provide facilities are the parents

9:23

could be involved. The whole pirates averages. Get

9:25

this right. your parents sort of. That

9:27

you'd loose if you do that or child.

9:30

Yeah, it'll just make a point absolutly you

9:32

have you ever that you make your board

9:34

presumably at that age. Yet and for

9:36

it was part of the campaign see

9:38

shift The position in a union and

9:40

much in the way the i'm Sixty

9:42

two positions and nine. Do.

9:44

You have a first memory then because

9:47

of she wouldn't remember being a toddler

9:49

was your first memory of being involved

9:51

in protest or policy. Probably.

9:54

a ticket on outside a job sansa that

9:56

was his speech going on around say steve

9:58

jobs and the workers with

10:00

screens, they'd had screens put in because

10:02

there'd been a lot of abuse of,

10:05

in some cases, violence. So

10:07

I went with my parents to that

10:09

picket line and I was, I don't

10:11

know, five-ish? And I participated

10:13

in asking people not to go to work.

10:16

Don't you know where they're on strike today? So

10:19

I was doing that from very young, just copying,

10:21

really. And you started to

10:23

organise at school, I'm told. Even

10:25

in primary school. Even in primary school.

10:28

So we had a school counselling in primary

10:30

school, which I was on. But

10:33

we also had, occasionally,

10:35

issues would come up. So I remember

10:38

I must have been in year five, year six, or 10 or 11. There

10:43

was an argument on a rainy day. So

10:45

no kind of premise to

10:47

this, no forward thinking of this event. On

10:50

a rainy day that we should be left back inside.

10:52

There were people who hadn't prepared for that, no coats,

10:54

cold, etc. But we were

10:56

being fed into lunch in the same way

10:59

as usual, leaving some people wet

11:01

and cold. And people

11:03

were beginning to argue about that.

11:05

They were getting into arguments with

11:07

the dinner, dinner support staff. And

11:10

about three of them got into trouble. They were

11:12

put on the wall, which was a kind of, you

11:14

know, a punishment. So you did what? Age 10 or 11. Age

11:18

10 or 11. I organised for everybody

11:20

to also go on the wall

11:22

and to refuse to go into lunch until they let

11:24

the three people who had been punished

11:27

go in as well. We weren't, I wasn't about

11:29

to stand there and let people who were standing

11:31

up for us and standing up

11:33

for us all be individually picked

11:35

out. And what

11:38

you described then, as you are

11:40

sometimes now, as troublemaker. Or

11:42

do you think the staff in the way thought, well done. Well,

11:45

I certainly got a warning or a demerits or

11:47

whatever it was called for it. But

11:50

that was very unusual. I was like

11:52

a very well behaved child. I

11:55

did well at school. I liked school. So

11:57

it was unusual. I don't think the staff would

11:59

have. generally considered me a troublemaker, but

12:02

I became one because I wasn't prepared

12:04

to let picking off of individual slide

12:06

I thought we would do better as

12:08

a group, an organized group. It's interesting

12:10

again in a sense you've adopted the

12:13

language. I became a troublemaker in a

12:15

sense with a reason, for a cause,

12:17

with a purpose as it were

12:19

and it seems to me to define what you're doing

12:21

now and what you learn to do You

12:24

were at school in Merseyside, brought up in the world

12:27

Before we talk about another battle you had

12:29

which is about sexuality Do

12:32

you think the politics of that region? Which

12:35

so many of my guests on this program

12:37

learned their politics In

12:40

Merseyside so many trade union leaders came

12:42

and come from Merseyside. Do you think

12:44

that affected you? Yes,

12:47

I think there's no shortage of activity to

12:49

be involved in in Merseyside In

12:52

secondary school I was involved

12:54

in work to save the library's campaign

12:56

on the Wirral There was

12:58

a strong anti-fascist movement that I was

13:01

tangentially involved in, not organizing in, but

13:04

we turned up to opposed to BNP

13:06

when they leaflettered in Liverpool There were

13:08

loads of things going on Liverpool

13:11

socialist singers, the choir, being

13:13

involved in all of those things and

13:15

around the periphery of all of those

13:17

things It was very easy to become involved in

13:20

politics. Now, you just come from an

13:22

LGBT event. You're wearing a t-shirt Yes,

13:25

Pits and Perverts t-shirt that recognizes

13:27

lesbians and gays support the minor.

13:29

Yeah, and was that something

13:32

that you had to battle about when

13:35

you were at school Yeah, school

13:37

was a very hostile environment for

13:40

me from a sexual identity

13:42

perspective and the shadow of Section 28

13:46

is a long one and while it had been

13:48

well repealed by the time I got to the

13:51

secondary school and It

13:53

was still prominent in the attitudes of

13:55

teachers and parents. Yeah, so you're just

13:57

28 years old And therefore.

14:01

That share that section project was a

14:03

long, long time in the past. Well,

14:05

It was repealed in two thousand and

14:07

three is is really recent history, so

14:09

I went to school in the immediate,

14:12

secondly school in the immediate aftermath. The

14:14

thought in reality a. The

14:17

Pussy. The policy of

14:20

we must not talk about this

14:22

was still very prominence and and

14:24

we hard. I mean not very

14:26

long after I came out as

14:29

a parent complained about me and

14:31

my girlfriend and the school responded

14:33

by separating us on each other.

14:36

Animals for me to the full moons and

14:38

meeting my girlfriend down. I'm upset some didn't

14:40

show any classes on generally enforcing law in

14:42

I know he must not spend any time

14:45

together in school. It must not be at

14:47

all clear and that there is any of

14:49

that nonsense. He as you know it was

14:51

a with a an approach that said no

14:54

we will shut this down. And you do

14:56

when you battle. unless. I didn't fight so

14:58

my parents who were always very supportive

15:00

would give in to go to support

15:02

a on. I decided not to and

15:05

because homophobia in by phobia with such

15:07

a prominent problem that frankly the attitude

15:09

of the schools the institutional attitude of

15:11

the school was not the only problem

15:13

or indeed the primary. Problem Well,

15:16

We got the background outta. Emma

15:18

runs Ridge a deputy chair of

15:20

the Be ebay. We've got the

15:22

fights at school, we've got the

15:24

protesting as a toddler traded in

15:26

conferences. That brings us to the

15:29

strikes the your very heavily involved

15:31

in of British Medical Association Now

15:33

to which is begin with the

15:35

ethics of this. Way

15:37

back pls password. It was

15:39

just so sad that was

15:41

used about strikes and industry

15:43

was unthinkable. Does.

15:46

She said stuff. How

15:49

do you think about them now given

15:51

that what used to was. given

15:57

that pledge doctors make that the health and

15:59

wellbeing of patient will be my first

16:01

consideration. So I

16:03

think the health and well-being of my patients and

16:05

our patients is our first

16:08

consideration. We're experiencing a health

16:10

system in collapse, we're experiencing

16:12

a health system where we cannot give

16:14

the care that patients deserve and

16:17

we have choices. We either continue

16:19

to let that happen around us and

16:22

we make the individual decisions to leave,

16:24

medicine or the country as thousands of

16:26

us are doing, or

16:29

we make the decision to fight back.

16:31

I think the decision to fight back

16:33

is the much more ethical position. During

16:35

strike action we ensure the safety of

16:38

patients who need urgent emergency and critical

16:40

care. But on the ethics,

16:43

aren't you just redefining that oath? You

16:45

see I think what that oath means

16:48

is the health and well-being of my patient, the

16:51

person in front of me, not the collective,

16:53

that's what politics is for. You

16:55

want to change the collective, how much money the

16:57

NHS gets, what sort of health system we have,

16:59

that's why we vote in elections. The

17:02

Hippograti oath says the person in front of

17:04

me, I will put before

17:06

anything. And you don't. Well you

17:08

say I'm terribly sorry. Your operation's

17:10

cancelled, your appointment is cancelled because

17:12

I'm making a wider political point.

17:16

So we talk about the

17:18

principles of metaglastics being non-maleficence,

17:20

doing as little harm as possible, there's

17:23

always harm associated with health care, all

17:25

of our drugs have side effects, all of

17:27

our operations and so on, so doing the

17:30

least possible harm, doing the most possible benefit,

17:32

promoting autonomy. And then the fourth principle of

17:34

metaglastics is justice. Right.

17:37

That's the fourth principle of metaglastics. We

17:39

try and ensure the best care for

17:41

the vast majority of people, you know,

17:43

for the largest number of people. And

17:46

we have choices to make when

17:48

we are in a situation where actually the

17:50

care that we give to the person in

17:53

front of us is never the

17:55

quality that I would like them to receive. The

17:58

referral that I make for somebody is When

18:00

could take many months, possibly years?

18:02

They've probably waited many months to

18:04

see. He may. Have but

18:07

if they're unfortunately they will Now Portland Now

18:09

Yeah that are one desire. Well because Emma

18:11

and friends obama on going on strike out

18:13

I'll have my but they want their treatment.

18:16

They do. They do. But.

18:18

If we don't decent thing. Then neither

18:20

they nor the thousands and com thousands upon

18:22

thousands of people who need treatment in the

18:24

future will have access to it because if

18:27

we don't do something, the thousands my colleagues

18:29

the a going abroad will continue to leave,

18:31

they won't return and then we won't be

18:34

able to have an Nhs. that. That says

18:36

people in the way that we. Want

18:38

to have you been a patient

18:40

in hospital? A house. So.

18:43

Do you know the anxiety? That

18:46

it cries when you not sure your operations gonna go

18:48

ahead or know. I've I've

18:50

never been a had surgery have been on

18:52

a waiting. List for surgery and

18:55

of against a dream but I

18:57

have. ah I'm very lucky think

18:59

you know we have to be

19:01

grateful for said health He has

19:03

looks befalls of the sunset on

19:05

I can't. Imagine in reality

19:07

I can't imagine what it is.

19:09

light and I'm. Genuinely.

19:11

Very sorry. That. It is it

19:13

happening for I'm sorry for all. Of the

19:16

times it's happening B C it's

19:18

a cop out Isn't it that

19:20

because you'll make it, move it

19:22

or use I will look something

19:24

bad happens So let's do lots

19:26

more bad things. Have an you

19:28

are choosing and it is a

19:30

choice you and your members to

19:32

say to those patients yet you

19:34

will not get your appointment You

19:36

will not get your dream and

19:38

you will wait longer. Fuel Cancer

19:40

Care which is you know contribution

19:42

the possibility of songs you again

19:45

how. Do you ethically just a

19:47

fire? And. I'm gonna can come

19:49

straight back to where I answer jays. Which

19:51

is that if we don't do something. It.

19:54

Continues to get worse. And

19:56

not just this. patience. To

19:59

put the hundreds pump. Well him for patients

20:01

who follow them will face was care

20:03

so we have some choice to make.

20:05

I agree it's a choice right boats?

20:08

I would rather make the choice that

20:10

benefits more. And you don't

20:12

leave them the electorate. A

20:15

male model. actions of all. so.

20:18

You know it's not going happen

20:20

immediately. Are we gonna? You know?

20:22

Since we started this dispute in

20:24

October twenty Twenty two for junior

20:27

doctors, we have shifted the government

20:29

really significantly. the current government sorry,

20:31

significantly from literally nothing. We're not

20:33

gonna stop you. There is no

20:35

possibility of any title of it

20:37

and to three percent And see,

20:40

In it than six percent on a bit

20:42

under. Now where are in a potentially twelve

20:44

percent now? Most of that's already been wiped

20:46

out by inflation and we'll still lives in

20:48

our colleagues. But I don't think we should

20:50

have to wait till election year to try

20:53

and rescue the surface that we provide the

20:55

patience. For using your on the brink of

20:57

tropes of desire is the figure as that. Was

20:59

offered in Scotland where the edges of

21:02

run by the government in Edinburgh, Westminster

21:04

or that sounds like about the souls

21:06

a ball ball, the might. Find

21:09

to do so. In Scotland they got an over

21:11

two years seventeen and a half percent. Three

21:13

years of. Inflation Plus! So I

21:15

step towards postracial steps towards a

21:17

restoration and much needed contract reform

21:19

and they consider thought I'd want

21:22

us to to members and and

21:24

on to have an ongoing discussion

21:26

with the Scottish Government to improve

21:28

the health of As this is

21:30

what this is about. it's about

21:32

improving the lives of doctors so

21:34

that we can improve the lines

21:36

of patience. Thirty five percent.

21:39

Was a mistake. Wasn't going into a

21:41

negotiation asking for something you must have

21:43

known you have the possibly got a

21:45

chance of getting. I don't

21:47

think it's a mistake the Ask for Ease have

21:49

stolen from the bag. Limited.

21:52

Stolen As if it's I mean

21:54

it's. It's. A It's a Pay

21:56

Laughs. As or anybody is, I had a

21:58

pay freeze as have that money? Dolan

22:00

from. Why are they worth less than they were

22:02

in two thousand a night? Will because economists

22:04

more. But there

22:07

are some people doing very well I thought.

22:09

So there's a huge numbers of

22:12

people who have paid for the

22:14

crisis who never post it. They're

22:16

not worth any less. They shouldn't

22:18

be poorer. I think so developers

22:20

and was a sensible. Thing. To

22:22

us from. I think pay restorations

22:24

a completely reasonable. A group of you

22:26

always been completely unfit about this

22:29

campaign, saying it was outrageous that

22:31

doctors junior doctors got fourteen pounds

22:33

in our. Village.

22:35

And get forcing bird or issue. They did

22:37

at the time fourteen pounds and eight pence. What it says

22:39

on the pace. Let only if he did

22:41

no no work, no new weekend work

22:43

and if included your holidays as well.

22:46

Which is why organizations like Full Fact

22:48

said it was a misleading think. It's

22:50

literally on the pay slip. And you know week

22:52

we've people have produced that I slept Fourteen thousand

22:55

eight cents an hour. That's what's on the place.

22:57

That that's what your hourly rate as soon as

22:59

often as you receive see. You get thirty

23:01

seven percent additional for my time hours.

23:04

Again you know not huge amount more

23:06

for nighttime pay and some people get

23:09

additional moneys. Thought of the works that

23:11

they do but there are large numbers

23:13

of doctors. You know eleven percent of

23:15

doc as junior doctors are Sundays new

23:18

one Doctors have first year and their

23:20

hourly rate is fourteen pounds. And eight

23:22

some of us know when they actually receive

23:24

because they get over money for doing other

23:26

work. In addition to that put their also

23:28

saw comparing them with a barista. The other

23:30

thing was where they paid the same his

23:32

prissy and auto he the average weight of

23:34

junior doctors is much higher than average wage.

23:37

Of her first urging the doctors much higher

23:39

the most barristers only. A sale doing

23:41

lots of additional work. So so

23:43

I think it's reasonable to say

23:45

that somebody who is working. Forty.

23:48

Eight hours a week, some of

23:50

that night squat a law thought

23:52

weekends should be paid more than

23:54

fifteen pounds and Allah. To live as

23:56

as result of just explain what we mean

23:58

by pay restoration them because that. Was

24:00

way you began this dispute. Little remains

24:02

something the you don't expect straight away

24:05

but you want to make steps towards.

24:07

Net and never have expected fatal a fine the

24:09

way. I'm what. What? it, what is it now? Much would

24:11

it cost? What is it? So

24:13

I'm it's the reversal of about twenty

24:15

six percent on real sense take up

24:17

since two thousand and eight have been.

24:19

Progress is a the time and we

24:22

we think that it will cost about

24:24

one point one billion pounds in England.

24:26

So junior doctors. And

24:28

or the people have calculated it can't be

24:30

differently. With we set up the real

24:33

real cost is about one point one

24:35

billion because the government receives was it

24:37

I can talk about of what about

24:39

of older and on on. I gotta

24:41

be honest, I think that's worth it

24:43

for maintaining the health care if your

24:45

query he wants. Talked about getting nhs

24:48

pay restoration for everybody notices the I

24:50

Don't does pauses and wish you luck.

24:52

Girls are significantly more. Be ten years

24:54

of billions you were ones grew to

24:56

disown you. possibly because there are fifty

24:58

billion up. And again, none of these people

25:01

with any less than they were worth in two

25:03

thousand and. Nine. But using fifty billion

25:05

is a realistic some full pay.

25:07

I. Don't know I'd I don't have

25:09

the sickest facets. Every staff great. But.

25:12

Why these organizations a bullet? In other words,

25:14

if if if Emma runs right now diffuser

25:16

they may I made you health secretary say

25:19

right let's go to the Chancellor as going

25:21

else for. Forty. Fifty

25:23

billion pounds to restore by and

25:25

manager. I can't speak city

25:27

of the groups of stuff and but I

25:29

don't feel good lot of other if I

25:31

don't think that the unreasonable. In a

25:34

why is it in society that we

25:36

have decided that it's acceptable to me

25:38

working people people who are rooting for

25:41

them as the since since his in

25:43

the country So those people to be

25:45

poorer why. It. Didn't have to be

25:47

that way. We. Could make

25:49

a different choice. We could politically make a

25:51

different choice than. him at door we have elections

25:54

that are of more after i didn't searches we

25:56

vote for people to buy can have no money

25:58

was you dot has to do that I

26:00

mean there's a reason you call yourself Red

26:02

Runswake. You regard yourself, I

26:04

think the phrase you used, unashamedly

26:06

socialist. What does that mean? It

26:09

means that I'm happy to talk about

26:11

the ideas that working

26:14

people deserve their share. Translate

26:16

though. What does that mean? You want to see a

26:19

society what with much higher taxes for the rich and

26:21

much better pay for... Absolutely,

26:24

yeah, absolutely. I'd like to see that. I'd

26:26

like to see a society in which

26:29

the people who actually run society have

26:31

far more control over it. That's what

26:33

I'd like to see. Obviously

26:35

it's not a political

26:38

position of the BMA. The BMA

26:40

is non-partisan. But it

26:43

is that set of ideas

26:45

that brings me to trade unionism and it's the

26:47

set of ideas that I bring to trade unionism

26:49

that have led to my election and the election

26:51

of people like me. Is there anybody in

26:54

politics that represents that set of ideas?

26:56

Was Jeremy Corbyn someone who represented that

26:58

set of ideas? John McDonnell when he

27:00

was... John McDonnell. I mean much closer,

27:02

but I'm not fangirling

27:04

over anybody in the

27:06

Labour Party. But is that

27:08

sort of... I take your point and these are personalities

27:11

you want to bear, but it's that

27:13

kind of politics that you

27:15

want to see. You must be horrified by the Labour Party now

27:17

then. I mean I think we're

27:19

getting certainly some progress from the

27:21

Labour Party. I mean West Streeting is now talking

27:24

about pay restoration being a journey. We're happy to

27:26

hear that. The Labour

27:28

Party in Wales, not so much. You

27:31

know, the strike action now from junior doctors in Wales

27:33

as well. You mentioned

27:35

West Streeting Labour's shadow health secretary.

27:37

He's described the BMA as hostile

27:41

and blind to the something for nothing

27:43

culture. Doesn't sound like you've quite got

27:45

him under your thumb. He's rode back

27:47

a bit more recently, but yeah, definitely

27:50

he has some interesting ideas that we

27:52

disagree with. But equally, you know,

27:54

we're talking to Streeting and the Labour Party

27:57

just in the same way that we talk

27:59

to the Conservatives. disagree with? What

28:01

do I disagree with Wes Streeting

28:03

on? Oh, many things. So, for

28:05

example, he had some attacks on

28:07

general practice last year. He's saying

28:11

things like, oh, well, we

28:13

just need better access.

28:15

We should have patients having direct

28:18

referral processes through, we

28:20

don't really need as many GPs and

28:22

so on. But general practice has currently

28:25

fallen apart at the seams. And

28:28

I think the

28:30

approach was not very helpful. But

28:33

again, he has moved back

28:35

from some of those statements and

28:38

we are now having more productive

28:40

discussions with Streeting. And I'm

28:43

kind of assuming now that he will be

28:45

the next health secretary and we'll have this,

28:47

unless the Tory's strange again, and we'll have

28:49

more discussions with him then and whoever

28:52

else is in charge in any of the four nations. Is it

28:54

a likelihood you'll have as many disputes with him as

28:56

you've got with current government? Maybe.

28:59

The dispute that we have now is not going to

29:01

end with a change of government. It's going to end

29:03

with progress on pay for doctors

29:05

that enables us to keep doctors in the

29:07

country. That's where the dispute ends. So this

29:09

could go on weeks, months, years?

29:13

I mean, possibly, I would hope that it doesn't.

29:15

I mean, but I hoped that back in October

29:17

2022, I hoped

29:19

that we might have conversations at that

29:21

point. But we're having those same discussions

29:23

with Scotland, with the SNP government in

29:25

Wales, with the Labour government, now in

29:27

Northern Ireland, where they've finally got an

29:29

administration back in Northern Ireland. Well, I'm

29:32

intrigued, really. What brings about

29:34

change? I mean, you know

29:36

that the next government, if it is

29:38

the Labour Party, have

29:40

no more money than this government. They've

29:42

been clear that they've got no more money. So

29:45

what was going to change, do you think? So

29:48

again, they're able to make political

29:50

choices about what they do. Any

29:52

government is able to make political choices. Well, suggest one

29:54

too. What could they choose? Well,

29:56

there's lots of spending even within

29:58

the House. The we

30:01

have been very critical of so

30:03

for example, we've written off fifteen

30:05

billion pounds the fraud on Pc A

30:07

I mean a attempting to get

30:09

some of that, but you know

30:11

you paid for pay restoration. Notes:

30:13

at least two dogs as he picks up

30:15

a restoration beyond our i mean. We're

30:18

here in the Conservative Party network about

30:20

in a cool thing, inheritance tax a

30:22

tune which we think would. Cost in

30:24

even by their numbers. four times

30:26

the amount that they're. Not willing

30:29

to spend on pay restoration to

30:31

conductors in the country in their

30:33

own. Lots of choices that the

30:35

government can make it. This is

30:37

about pirates. Ization. Do you

30:39

want workers to be powered? Well

30:41

see, Want to keep professional? People

30:43

skilled people in the country to provide

30:46

the services to provide the care that

30:48

people need people to serve in. This.

30:50

Country. We. Have to us

30:52

about you was adopted. A

30:55

And you. Qualified

30:57

as a doctor and along comes

30:59

close it? yeah. He

31:02

feels a long, long time ago,

31:04

doesnt emotionally. The

31:08

way they're perceived and public. Okay,

31:11

Yeah, when he said it's it's a long

31:13

time ago, it doesn't doesn't sell a long

31:16

time ago. It's all. and. The

31:18

pandemic is still raging at.

31:20

we still see cavitation people.

31:22

Still, I target and. You

31:25

know that these things are

31:28

presence and more side of

31:30

the experiences. That we have. During.

31:32

The first couple of ways of the

31:35

pandemic. To fill a similar he

31:37

presents to fill scalable that because I

31:39

know lots of duty doctor yeah no

31:41

A may never. Really? Forget

31:43

value of get but may not recover

31:46

from korea mostly for more than to

31:48

witness. Yeah. I'm in some cases

31:50

physically knew. We had lots of doctors

31:52

who repeatedly in fact it's an earthy

31:54

infections razor. Islam caved in. Long, long

31:56

time symptoms from that of course some

31:59

of our colleagues. Died. I don't

32:01

think we should forget. The

32:03

police that we lost and. To

32:06

lose a whole your now i know

32:08

and community mental health care but then

32:10

like all junior doctors you were is

32:12

why work. And

32:16

I rotated through. A whole variety is an.

32:19

Jobs. Three, three the cases.

32:21

There are several ways of

32:23

cause it's and and. He

32:26

know ah states many many of my colleagues

32:28

and the members of the the Am I.

32:31

On I think it's important to.

32:34

Remember now that people dismiss it as

32:36

a cold and nose to spite of

32:38

normal. Life does go to

32:40

work that this is a

32:42

deadly condition and that. At.

32:46

Kill thousands of people and

32:48

often in ways that we

32:50

haven't. Sent me I

32:52

had not seen or anticipated. Before but

32:54

when you come from to the as a

32:57

young doctor he as a young dude you

32:59

doctor su. The things that I. Will

33:02

never forget. In.

33:04

Reality. Ah ah.

33:08

What became terms happy Hypoxic.

33:10

So. So normally

33:13

when people are. On.

33:15

Their way towards death and or

33:17

in the process of dying and

33:19

all they are losing their locked

33:21

in a losing oxygen spring weather

33:24

conditions. I have an people become

33:26

drowsy keep become less aware. Often

33:28

We assist people in that are

33:31

giving them pain relief by giving

33:33

them relaxants and so on to

33:35

ease the process of actually. Impose

33:38

it. We have a lot

33:41

of people who maintained full

33:43

awareness. Despite the fact

33:46

that they're oxygen levels were falling

33:48

quite dramatically so you were able

33:50

to have, we were able to

33:52

have. Full. Conversations with

33:54

people who I knew would imminently

33:56

die. And.

34:00

That is something... That

34:05

is something that's really difficult because...

34:08

Difficult to recall as well,

34:10

isn't it? Yes, because the

34:12

fear that, like I

34:14

have and they have, is not

34:16

ameliorated by the fact that you are providing them

34:18

some level of comfort. Did

34:21

they know? Yes. They

34:23

knew. Often. You knew. Often.

34:27

Sometimes, no. But often, yes.

34:30

And you may have been one of the last people they spoke

34:32

to, if not the last, because so few relatives, visitors

34:35

could come in at that stage because there

34:37

was no... And we tried our

34:39

best to put people in contact,

34:42

you know, on the phone, you

34:44

know, through virtual conversations. But

34:47

often, yeah, they didn't have that. And then

34:49

we're ringing up, you know, their family members

34:52

saying that their relatives have died. And

34:55

losing lots of people,

34:57

you know, this is death on a scale that I

34:59

was not prepared for. And people, you

35:01

know, previous to my generation have not seen

35:04

in that way. And indeed, since now,

35:06

we don't get it in the same way. It's

35:08

a very particular generational occurrence.

35:11

Do you think that explains the

35:14

anger? Because there clearly is anger amongst

35:16

junior doctors. What

35:18

you described as the emotional scarring,

35:21

the physical scarring sometimes. That

35:24

that, the first word we

35:26

used in this interview, that word militant,

35:28

that militancy has some

35:30

of its roots in

35:32

the trauma that people like you

35:35

have lived through. I think it's possible

35:37

because if you are

35:41

in an environment where you are risking

35:44

your life and being

35:46

very genuine about that, risking your life to look

35:48

after others, and

35:50

you are being applauded, you know,

35:53

on the streets for doing so. And

35:56

simultaneously, you are receiving

35:58

shoddy PPE. and

36:00

another pay cut and another pay cut and

36:03

continuing infantilisation in the case particularly

36:05

of junior doctors. Infantilisation in the way

36:07

you're treated. In the way we're treated,

36:09

in the way that our voters are designed, in

36:11

the way that our lives are not respected, picked

36:14

up and moved across the country with no choice,

36:17

changes constantly, last minute changes, like you

36:19

don't have any life, they expect you

36:21

to not have any wider life. Then

36:24

yeah, that's very difficult because

36:28

it doesn't fit, right,

36:30

with the work that

36:32

you're doing. And it

36:34

really emphasises how politicians do

36:36

not care and how we have to act to

36:38

get them to care. What's

36:41

striking though is that after that

36:43

overwhelming public support, the

36:45

clapping, the pots and pans being banged,

36:48

you've still got some public support, the junior

36:50

doctor strikes, but he's dropping and it's dropped

36:52

quite a long way, hasn't it? Do you

36:54

fear that you're reaching a point at which

36:57

the public are saying, enough now, actually

36:59

there's too much suffering because

37:02

of these strikes and we

37:04

hear while you're doing it, but this now

37:06

needs to stop. That patient that

37:08

we refer to, that you talk the oath

37:10

to, they need their care and they need it as quickly

37:12

as they can get it. So the

37:15

polling shows still that more

37:17

of the public support than

37:19

opposed the strikes, which is, I

37:21

think pretty incredible. Most trade

37:24

unions don't receive that level of backing from the

37:26

public. And what's even more interesting

37:28

is that when you survey patients, the

37:31

support is greater than amongst the general public. And

37:34

I think that's because they see what we do. And

37:37

I regularly have patients who

37:39

I might not have met before, but

37:41

they recognise me from the television or

37:44

from the radio. And I

37:46

don't ever have patients who are opposed to the

37:49

strike action. I mean, maybe they just don't say

37:51

it, but I have lots of people who say,

37:53

oh, isn't it excellent?

37:55

And they're supportive because they know the reasons.

37:58

Although the reason for these strikes is to... The because

38:00

you're Monday was about to run out. You

38:02

got five more days of strikes. Not. Because.

38:05

Something Phone power in a negotiation that

38:07

because if you don't yeah Monday runs

38:09

out. This is it's because how difficult

38:11

to me by senior managers in it

38:13

just as illustrated inconvenience. It isn't a

38:15

response to what's happening in the negotiation

38:17

because you don't even in the garage

38:19

know that I really are. I'm talking

38:21

to the government. I mean he needed

38:24

the promise of talks Within twenty minutes

38:26

turned into twenty days. The promise Also

38:28

I've got a final offer my sleeve

38:30

are awesome materialized and in a we've

38:32

had no further also put to us

38:34

that we can put to members which

38:36

is a real say. And we

38:38

sent into the Danes. And some so

38:40

that we don't just go nowhere in

38:42

a we've seen the government attempt to

38:45

timeless out attempts assist sisters till the

38:47

unions on I mean that and then

38:49

indeed tell the public that they've settled

38:51

as to seats like for example with

38:53

the nurses were the haven't been a

38:55

supplement. nurses rejected that ale so we're

38:57

in a space where he knew we

38:59

would much prefer not to be taking

39:01

such action. And indeed we also we

39:03

ask that so the government on the

39:06

Nhs employers to extend the not date

39:08

so that I'm totes could. Continue further

39:10

if they think that we close to a

39:12

deal excellent will get some more time. They.

39:14

Are steeped a book by new negotiations. You members

39:16

new said you wouldn't do. That said as we

39:18

move oh my god humans are both sides that

39:20

an authentic we would put. Something aside for something

39:22

to. Skill set of didn't know they do three

39:25

percent more than they did or a region So

39:27

and. Right now we rebalancing service or a

39:29

new members have not whole volvo the oh

39:31

well we would like freaks and additional and

39:33

were rebalancing right now is I think that

39:36

three percent is a north they can that

39:38

know. And I I one

39:40

hundred percent down scenic they will not

39:42

vote. No members will give us another

39:44

Monday. Doctors will give us another Monday.

39:46

The so I saw go on. the only

39:48

election they. Might. Do I hope not I

39:51

hope know every day that we will house

39:53

in oh so the progress in negotiations with

39:55

they want to put some since it was

39:57

that we are able to put some and

39:59

us. That might be accepted by members and

40:01

will pull say i mean we have thrown

40:04

in Scotland We did do for consultants in

40:06

a wheel Not an unreasonable party to negotiate.

40:08

With with that's an interesting. Point.

40:11

To draw this comes as to a

40:13

close given your politics people as they

40:15

might as a own. Should

40:17

not reasonable, negotiate Ballsy. She's first and

40:19

foremost political. She defines itself by politics

40:21

should be perfectly obvious. it's always gaga

40:23

deal. If they can't devote deliver their

40:25

promises on waiting lists of they have

40:27

to go into relation with the Nhs

40:30

seem to be a failure. I'm

40:32

gonna come back to what I think the surface

40:34

of the the and eye is. And indeed or

40:36

unions. The purpose of

40:39

a unionist and naval workers to improve

40:41

their lives and for us the lives

40:43

of the patients that we la Casta.

40:47

It would be. Very

40:49

odd for me to then take the

40:51

position. I actually done One resolution, I

40:54

don't want things to get better. that's

40:56

ridiculous position to take. This is not

40:58

passes on situation when I can't wait

41:00

to see the end of the conservative

41:02

party. That's not what's happening here. What's

41:04

happening here is that I am working

41:06

in a collapsing service of all many

41:08

of my com for with my colleagues

41:11

and I have friends who only thing

41:13

for Australia, New Zealand, Canada an island

41:15

I would like them to stay. I

41:17

would like them to return I would.

41:19

Like to work in a service where I

41:21

can give the cat I trained to get

41:23

his patience. And I

41:26

therefore. Want. To see. A

41:28

resolution, A negotiated solution, an

41:30

outcome that shifts of towards

41:32

pay restoration like they have

41:34

been in Scotland likely in

41:36

like we all put in

41:38

various options to the government

41:40

in Westminster now. So

41:43

that we can keep doctors in the country and

41:45

so that we can get back to an Nhs.

41:47

That. Functions that people deserve in this

41:49

country. Now when you're not were he's

41:52

a doctor would you not working the

41:54

B M A Rumor has it ever.

41:56

Dungeons and Dragons? Her. Yes, very

41:58

much so. Not

42:02

just another form of campaigning for

42:04

my game. And it's it's

42:06

story rights and and it's collaborative story,

42:08

my thing, so I mean I would

42:11

never sit down and write a book

42:13

boots. Carrots Edu Adults.

42:16

Are like pain and. Clerics,

42:18

And true it's because they have

42:21

a mixture of in the a

42:23

gun in the game marshall abilities.

42:26

the also kind of. the spell

42:28

casting that is is helpful and

42:30

useful. Anti. Strategic those now. I've not

42:32

played it, but there's an element a strategy

42:34

to it. but you to go to Dungeons

42:36

and Dragons character when you're in the hell

42:38

secretary's office. I.

42:41

Didn't think it would be very helpful. Said,

42:43

I just wonder that. Has played When when

42:45

you're with the fruits of of friends

42:47

you're comfortable with each other. You can

42:49

build a story together. I am. I

42:52

wish I was in that position with

42:54

the health secretary bull unfortunately not and

42:56

unfortunately we don't have a government where

42:59

we can never have light release because

43:01

we win Suits him as we know.

43:03

I would love to the more collaborative

43:05

and with any government have any color.

43:08

What you make of her? Have you met

43:10

with a half. Minutes he got

43:12

different approach to see. Partly it's a

43:15

more positive approach, but the woods don't

43:17

mean very much in the context of

43:19

literally paid of course or less than

43:21

we were in two thousand and eight.

43:23

You know, everything else keeps going up,

43:25

you know, including the compulsory costs Athena

43:28

documented in Ccs Student Student That and

43:30

so on. So

43:32

and. I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful

43:34

all the time that we will be

43:36

able to get to a resolution. Buffalo

43:39

for now. But this rifle. The strikes

43:41

skill let them make us and asa. Emeralds.

43:44

It. Deputy Sheriff the be among the

43:47

British Medical Association. Thank you for Joan Real political

43:49

for good. Thank you for having me. Having

43:52

listened to that it's V You

43:54

might think the Emma runs with

43:56

his just preparing for a lifetime

43:59

as a trade union leaders, perhaps

44:01

even to become a member of

44:03

parliament. But as she left the

44:05

studio she wanted me to. No,

44:07

not a need that not true.

44:09

but after her maximum six years

44:12

in her job at the top

44:14

of the beer may. She.

44:16

Wants to go back. To. Be a

44:18

doctor full time. That.

44:20

She insists. Is. What she's

44:22

always wanted to do. Thanks

44:25

for listening. The producer is done Kramer

44:27

the editor is Jonathan Bruno's and the

44:29

Street a direct to this week was

44:31

and emails. On

44:33

this cultural line from Bbc Radio

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Four, leading artists and performers revealed

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was so beyond what I was

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being taught school disgusted. Best than

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work I do. Get messages all

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the time saying this is our

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allies, The Handmade Tail is already

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here. And reflect on their own

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cultural lives. Rock stars need to

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be simply drawn. I can't be

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too complex to join me. John

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Wilson and my guests including Nick

45:00

Cage, Stephen Fry, Margaret Atwood floors

45:02

pupil, Mccartney's and Whoopi Goldberg always

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knew I was going to be

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a cast your at. I'd never

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saw us going to be a

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famous movie person. this cultural life.

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Listen on B C Sounds.