0:00

This is the BBC. This

0:03

podcast is supported by advertising outside

0:05

the UK. Ad-free

0:15

listening on Amazon Music is included with

0:17

your Prime membership. Ads shouldn't be

0:19

the scariest thing about true crime. Just

0:22

head to amazon.com/ad-free true crime to

0:24

catch up on the latest episodes

0:27

without the ads. Welcome

0:31

to your daily affirmations. Repeat

0:33

after me. Working with others

0:35

is easier than ever. I

0:38

strive for perfect collaboration. Our

0:40

teamwork keeps getting better. Yeah,

0:43

affirmations are great. But monday.com can really

0:45

get you the teamwork you desire. Work

0:47

together easily and share files, updates, data,

0:49

and just about anything you want all

0:52

in one platform. Affirm yes

0:54

to start. Or tap the

0:56

banner to go to monday.com. BBC

1:05

Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

1:09

Hello and welcome to Political Thinking.

1:11

A conversation with, rather

1:13

than a newsy interrogation of, someone

1:15

who shapes our political thinking about

1:18

what has shaped theirs. My

1:20

guest this week made the cover of Time magazine

1:23

when they profiled the first Muslim leader

1:26

of a Western democracy. He is, as

1:28

the headline put it, the

1:30

new face of Scotland. The

1:32

youngest leader this country has had in

1:35

a quarter of a century of having

1:37

a devolved Scottish government. But

1:40

this, amidst Hamza Yousaf who's talking

1:42

to me here in the Scottish

1:44

government headquarters in Glasgow, has

1:46

actually been a difficult year for him. Difficult

1:49

for his party too, dogged

1:52

by a police investigation, criticised

1:54

for failing to deliver, and

1:56

divided about when independence might

1:59

actually come. be possible. I'm

2:01

Zee, you said first minister. Thanks

2:03

for joining me on Political Thinking. It

2:06

has been quite a year hasn't it? You're telling

2:08

me. How much you

2:10

feel you've aged at that time? I

2:12

think people could probably look at pictures before I

2:14

became first minister and pick just ten months on and

2:17

draw their own conclusions. I suppose hognony was

2:19

a really interesting point. Nadia

2:22

and I were seeing in the

2:24

new year, my wife Nadia and I were seeing in the

2:26

new year, she said to

2:28

me, could you imagine last year

2:30

when we were at my parents house, we

2:33

were living the kind of south side of Glasgow,

2:35

East room for sure, not far from Glasgow and

2:38

my mum and dad had gone to bed at 11,

2:40

they were like, we're too old for this, we're going

2:42

to bed, happy new year kids and

2:44

it was me, my wife and my stepdaughter,

2:47

Maya and we had Jules

2:49

Hollins and Suitnanny on the television, did

2:52

a little bit of a dance in the living room,

2:54

so much the disgust of my stepdaughter and

2:56

by about half twelve we were in bed and

2:59

we would never have envisaged hognony

3:03

what 2023 would have in store

3:05

for us personally, let alone for

3:07

the country that we love and

3:09

it's been a whirlwind ten months I think. Well it

3:11

would have been a world with it anyway wouldn't it?

3:13

Because the politics in a second will talk about what

3:15

your wife's family, what you have been through given that

3:18

she has family in the garden now, just

3:20

looking back though is that year as first

3:23

minister, not quite a year, what

3:26

are the best bits of the job, what are the

3:28

worst bits of the job? So the best

3:30

bits are very much and

3:32

easily the fact that every single day without

3:34

a shadow of a doubt I get to

3:36

make somebody's day and it

3:38

can be something really small, it can be a

3:40

selfie right or somebody saying I don't expect

3:43

to see you here, can I get a picture with

3:45

a kid? It can be something

3:47

quite transformational, it can be a policy that we're bringing

3:49

forward, it can be something that has literally changed somebody's

3:51

life but every single day in

3:53

this job as first minister you get to make

3:55

somebody's day if not many people's day. That's the

3:57

good thing, what's the bad thing? the

4:00

press intrusion there's no getting away from

4:02

it and and your family your your

4:04

your children being in

4:06

the public eye I've mentioned my 14 year

4:08

old step daughter she's in school she's at

4:11

that age but you can't really

4:13

protect her from what's going on what's in the

4:15

newspapers what's not whereas I can do that with

4:17

my four-year-old but easier to do you can't really

4:19

do it with your 14 year old and that

4:21

kind of constantly being under the under the spotlight

4:23

I think can be really difficult at a different

4:26

level than even being a cabinet minister now you

4:28

were always gonna be at the spotlight anyway you're

4:30

a politician it's difficult

4:32

time for the SMP your first minister

4:35

but then along comes Gaza

4:37

and your

4:40

wife's family are stuck when

4:43

the bombs start to fall I

4:46

don't think I can imagine how difficult

4:48

how traumatic that must have been

4:50

traumatic is the right word you

4:52

know we woke up on October

4:54

the 7th and

4:57

you know I saw him from a wife's phone

5:00

there was multiple messages from her mum who was

5:02

in Gaza and I said to

5:04

kind of nudge my wife away and said

5:06

nads I think he better check why there's

5:08

10-15 messages I was worried

5:10

because Nadia's grand who's in Gaza she's 93

5:13

still in Gaza I thought maybe

5:16

something had happened to her and Nadia looked at

5:18

the messages and of course we began to panic and

5:20

there's no other word for it Nadia's

5:22

mother was explaining what had happened

5:25

in terms of the dreadful abhorrent

5:28

terror attack in Israel

5:31

and of course immediately there what he

5:33

was the retaliation what was going to

5:35

be the reaction from

5:37

Israel they had some sense of what

5:39

might be oh undoubtedly and that is

5:41

funny actually they travel to

5:44

Gaza every single year in

5:46

the summer before the blockade began

5:48

and she's

5:51

been there when there's been gunfire or the

5:53

odd airstrike here and there but they knew

5:55

by the fact that Israel had not only

5:57

sorry Hamas had not only gone to Israel

5:59

but taken the number of hostages they

6:01

had, that their retaliation

6:03

would be severe. And

6:05

that was immediately the thought of how

6:07

do we get... Is there any way of getting Nadia's mum

6:10

and dad, the wider family of

6:12

course, but certainly Nadia's mum and dad, to get

6:14

them out of the castle. And it became very

6:16

apparent early on that the borders were sealed and

6:18

shut. The borders were sealed and quite often the

6:21

communications were cut, weren't they? Absolutely. You must have

6:23

had nights, your wife Nadia

6:25

must have had nights, where you had no

6:27

idea, is this putting it too strongly, whether

6:29

they'd be alive the next month? No, no,

6:31

not putting it strongly at all, that is

6:33

exactly what it was like. I

6:35

think, I'll be frank, the

6:37

four weeks that my mother-in-law and father-in-law were in

6:40

Gaza, probably the lowest points of

6:42

my life and of Nadia's life, they

6:44

were really difficult four weeks, precisely

6:46

because day by day and night by night, we did not know

6:48

if they were going to live or not. And I

6:51

can remember the time at S&P conference, in the midst of

6:54

all of this, my first conference as party

6:56

leader, trying to concentrate on what I have

6:58

to deliver for the party and the members, but

7:01

I got a call just

7:03

first day into the conference, I had a first night of conference.

7:06

My mother-in-law at one in the morning saying that their

7:09

neighbour has been told that they're about to get hit,

7:11

to evacuate. So of course the whole

7:13

neighbourhood, because of the impact of that strike that

7:15

they're worried about, the whole neighbourhood

7:17

is wandering the streets. Now it turned out that

7:19

that was a false message, but

7:22

I got a call one in the morning, my mother-in-law crying

7:24

and saying, I'll never

7:26

forget what she said to me, she said to me, you

7:30

know, you take care of my girls. And

7:33

for me that was really tough. And she

7:35

thought you thought that was the last

7:37

call. But that was it. She was phoning me to say

7:39

her goodbyes. One in the morning, at

7:42

UK time, I think it was

7:44

three in the morning in Gazelle, she was phoning

7:46

me to say, you just make sure you take

7:48

care of my girls. And I thought,

7:52

how do I respond to

7:54

that? And thankfully, touch with you,

7:56

we're fine. But we had moments like that, multiple

7:58

phone calls in the middle of the night. That

8:00

is. Still

8:03

buy some of the family because the

8:05

family photos very painful. Choose to play

8:07

some could. Escape. Of

8:10

us are still stuck in

8:12

only my father more arrive

8:14

bought in Scotland remember Edinburgh

8:16

and a male for. My

8:20

father law is a great man the is

8:22

is the alpha male will be awesome hills

8:24

you know is that says we have being.

8:28

And I've never said I'm never have them

8:30

see them come close to shedding a tear.

8:33

Up So he broke down when he was explaining

8:35

to me to find a lot to say goodbye.

8:39

And his mother. Is another

8:41

your wife's sister who's a doctor that

8:44

will would rather yeah my snow white

8:46

white lace below his there is a

8:48

doctor Watson a hospital and Communists fans

8:50

there. has mother whose ninety three and

8:52

he just doesn't know what to the

8:55

state whether he'll see them again. You

8:58

said have to put it was for

9:00

you be other s a be party

9:02

com for george show pretty much a

9:04

was en masse. Constant interviews, constant. Was

9:09

it difficult to do the job?

9:12

When. That when a more the morning

9:14

for injury though I don't get up

9:17

bad let alone go and face the

9:19

cameras have meetings at of course it

9:21

is difficult and that's where I'm so

9:23

grateful to the team. Fun!

9:25

Of good, a wonderful, amazing, talented

9:27

Cabinet ministers, many of them would

9:30

step in and say, "Look, you

9:32

don't need to the evening of"

9:35

A single shake hands I can do the

9:37

speech you go back to madea and just

9:39

makes you there for harm issue there for

9:42

kids but also an audio was the same

9:44

we had to make sure it was never

9:46

any question of not to conferences not doing

9:48

the job that and overly meet be have

9:51

to go and do the job people you

9:53

other people's first minister. You're

9:55

there to do a job. you're there to be to

9:57

the country's moments. Or and you got to provide leadership.

10:00

The her really important moment for you

10:02

to do that, please ensure you talk

10:04

about providing leadership because you did something.

10:06

Striking story I think for a D leader

10:08

but striking for a Muslim leader of

10:10

a country. He went to a synagogue

10:12

very soon after. The. Seventh

10:14

October and it was a pretty powerful

10:16

message. I think most people would agree.

10:19

What was that you want to sell?

10:21

The juice computer I think that he simply

10:24

to that community she by the be I

10:26

grew up us my I grew up in

10:28

part of the Continent morons that has the

10:30

biggest Jewish population and entire country. I grew

10:33

up in the arms of the Jewish committee

10:35

actually went to school for the school that

10:37

has the largest population of it and the

10:39

country or did at the time. My message

10:41

early simple one that their grief was my

10:44

grief I was feeling Greece and actually when

10:46

the rabbi and I was a rabbi came

10:48

to pick me up So you have a

10:50

cynical when I arrived she. And I embrace

10:52

them. He tried. It will be

10:55

shed tears because he understood why I

10:57

was going through. And I understood

10:59

that he has children. And a field

11:01

her feeding for the ones you may that

11:03

visit now. Even what's

11:05

happened in Gaza given the

11:07

divisions that of spreading communities

11:09

and between commences given of

11:11

course the suit death toll

11:13

in Gaza. Would. It

11:16

be possible that of that sentiment

11:18

now obsolete in general. The meeting

11:20

A had just dislike him this

11:22

podcast services just didn't representatives so

11:24

just met here in this building

11:26

a whole group of that she

11:28

sox addressed and juice as Societies

11:30

of and Universities Red Cross Scotland

11:32

and and the messages as the

11:34

seem that we we must be

11:36

able to as a wreath like

11:38

the human race be able to

11:40

show empathy to each other for

11:42

their this is not competing narratives.

11:44

Here you can. absolutely as

11:47

i do express greece far as

11:49

really families who have i the

11:51

loss of one because of those

11:54

aboard a terrorist attacks on did

11:56

are suffering because their families have

11:58

been taken hostage and you can

12:00

grieve for the human catastrophe of Gaza,

12:02

which is undeniable. And that's

12:04

the reason you have to make choices as a leader. And unlike

12:08

here, Stama, say, the Labour leader, you

12:11

have been much more critical of Israel than

12:13

the Prime Minister, or indeed

12:15

the leader of the opposition in Westminster. And

12:18

you talked about Israel's military

12:20

action being tantamount to ethnic

12:22

cleansing. Very strong words.

12:25

That's not what I said. What I

12:27

said was the statements from certain senior

12:29

members of Nathan and

12:58

I said, I'm not going to be able to do anything. And

13:00

that's my worry. That's my concern. That's the real

13:02

agenda. Well, that you have some

13:04

extreme elements in Nathan whose government that want that to

13:06

be the end game and

13:09

the end goal. And we must resist that by saying

13:11

that the land of Gaza belongs

13:14

to the people of Gaza. And I've

13:16

not heard much equivocation from our leaders on

13:20

that point. Is what we're saying genocide?

13:22

Well, that'll be for the ICG to

13:24

determine. That'll be for court's determine. And

13:26

I think that's what I've heard from my wife. Nadia says

13:28

what we're saying is textbook genocide in real time. Nadia's

13:32

responsible for her comments. We've gone

13:34

far, far past the time, I think, when

13:37

husbands speak for wives and have to

13:39

explain what it is that the

13:41

wives say. Nadia speaks for

13:43

herself and she speaks very powerfully and articulates herself

13:45

very powerfully. She might say,

13:47

well, why not? Well,

13:50

I think what is important for me to do is

13:53

lead us to respect international law and

13:55

the problem of any breach or potential

13:57

breach of international law

13:59

should be be investigated all the way up

14:01

to and including genocide. It's right by the

14:03

way that the ICG I have no

14:06

no equivocations around this that the

14:08

ICG should absolutely be

14:10

investigating this matter and they'll come to a judgement

14:12

without injury of course. It might be genocide but

14:14

it's up for others to judge. Just for the

14:16

court to determine. Now interestingly the

14:19

politics of the Middle East as

14:21

you alluded to have in a

14:23

sense followed you throughout your life at school you

14:25

mentioned. 9-11 becomes a formative

14:27

experience for you when you're at

14:31

school. Completely. It's

14:34

the day that changed my life and I know that

14:36

sounds strange being thousands of miles away from where

14:38

the event took place but

14:40

9-11 took place I think

14:42

on a Tuesday. What's

14:45

the same news coverage, the

14:47

rolling news coverage on

14:49

the BBC that everybody else would

14:51

have watched? And then I

14:53

get to school on a Wednesday morning and my

14:56

two friends that I sit beside in registration class as it was

14:58

then are asking me, bombarding

15:00

me actually with questions that I have

15:03

no idea the answer to. Why do

15:05

Muslims hate America? Who did

15:07

these attacks? Do you know? And it wasn't malicious.

15:10

They just assumed being Muslim I must know the answer

15:12

to it. And I remember that night

15:14

sitting down with my dad. Dad used to watch it

15:17

and still does to this day watch the 10 o'clock

15:19

news. You're pleased to know the BBC news is good.

15:21

10 o'clock news every single

15:23

evening. And usually 9.59 I'd

15:26

go right, that's my cue, I'll go on the computer

15:28

or go upstairs or

15:31

do whatever. And

15:33

this time I sat down and my dad went, you're

15:36

watching the news with me? I said yeah, I kind of want to know what's going

15:38

on. He said alright. And

15:41

that to me was an absolutely pivotal moment where

15:43

I had to make a decision I think about,

15:46

well actually do I just hide

15:48

away? Say it's got nothing to

15:50

do with me which obviously of course the hell if it didn't but

15:52

say that as

15:54

a community do we just shy away? Or

15:56

Do we actually say our faith condemns? And

16:00

the strongest possible terms: the taking of any in

16:03

and supplies that one the thousands that we saw

16:05

that will sell Eight and Nine Eleven. And that

16:07

was a real moment I saw i'm gonna become

16:09

politically active. Why?

16:11

Though. I can understand entirely.

16:13

was Eighty Nine eleven my might use a

16:16

guy have to confront these questions that are

16:18

bagels to school? Explained

16:20

to me why politics and your daddy

16:22

mentioned. Already he

16:25

dabbles in politics, immobilism in politics

16:27

for but when every scene of

16:29

the Us when we see these

16:31

guys on the from covered so

16:33

I've is the first Muslim leader

16:35

of his country, the youngest cabinet

16:37

minister ever the youngest first minister

16:39

of Us. Why? So

16:42

the run and the something forces that

16:44

are very political. And the sense

16:46

that so my father was a fuss m

16:49

member of the Snp So many some background

16:51

in Glasgow. I don't have the nineteen seventies

16:53

but by the we seventy minutes in p

16:55

the sawmill seen as an act of betrayal

16:58

when in the Asian community. still he voted

17:00

labour costs what we did in the nineteen

17:02

seventies mom or dad join the Snp yeah

17:04

she became a bit of a black sheep

17:07

from the community for for dating season go

17:09

against the the can political type of immigrated

17:11

that the the the immigrant community that point.

17:15

Was was voting for. Labor for I'm I'm mostly

17:17

buffer for a long long time and their

17:19

dad join is a serious and p nineteen

17:21

seventies we have this kind of bizarre situation

17:24

my house or mom's that labour poster would

17:26

be in the dancers and don't as a

17:28

simpler to stuff with the heat bbc the

17:30

top and I remember my mom being absolutely

17:32

gutted. nineteen eighty two i was baby young

17:35

is I still remember just helps said she

17:37

was that new connect have become the prime

17:39

minister for out of any political households but

17:41

dad the mum the before since the politics

17:44

as was awesome put nine eleven. Three.

17:46

And Nine Eleven. there was a very

17:48

quickly. Division in and

17:50

around them and remember

17:52

the Muslim community. Decide.

17:55

It's call a meeting. Quite.

17:57

can have been between that period between eleven and and the

18:00

beginning. I have survived into it largely

18:02

because I was known as being a bit in

18:04

it. Gobby Frank Green, a guy spoke

18:06

a lot and sometimes he made sense.

18:08

So listen, I was by far the

18:10

youngest person that was invited to this

18:12

meeting and genuinely there was discussion

18:14

amongst the Muslim community that was present and there's

18:17

a big generational divide I remember. There was the

18:20

kind of older members of our Muslim community

18:22

were saying, lay low, put

18:24

your heads down, this law blow over. And

18:27

there was a younger law, myself included, saying

18:29

this is an opportunity. Like we shouldn't feel like

18:31

we're not proud to be Muslim. This

18:33

is our faith, this is our country

18:36

born here, bred here, raised

18:38

here, this didn't happen in my name

18:40

and we've now got a choice and

18:42

that's the choice I said. Is

18:45

it true that your dad, who as you

18:47

say became an SNP supporter quite early after

18:50

he arrived in this country, made a

18:52

link between the politics of his home

18:54

country Pakistan with the politics

18:57

of yours, Scotland. This notion of

18:59

proud, independent nations. Yes, I mean

19:02

that was really interesting. Dad was,

19:04

so that's an accountant

19:07

and that's relevant because in his school

19:10

he'd say this take well the equivalent here would now

19:12

be advanced higher math so took maths in sixth year.

19:14

I think it was six year studies back then

19:16

he took maths and there's only him

19:18

and another and a Chinese student. So my dad and

19:21

the Chinese student and a teacher and

19:23

his teacher he says was an English man who supported

19:25

the SNP and far

19:28

from teaching my dad maths he would often have a

19:30

big rants about politics and say why don't you guys

19:32

join the SNP you know because you know

19:34

we're a proud party we're a party that's multicultural

19:36

and all the rest of it. My dad said

19:38

to me in six year studies and he'd only

19:40

been in this country for a few years. My

19:42

dad's assumptions had been that Scotland was an independent

19:44

country. He didn't realize that was

19:47

part of another country and

19:49

for him he just completely

19:51

was converted by this sixth

19:54

year teacher but he thought

19:56

to himself yeah well why should Scotland not make decisions

19:58

for the self in the same way country.

20:01

The reason I ask it is because here

20:03

in Scotland the idea of being a nationalist,

20:06

it's not a phrase that often people at

20:08

the FMP like, but it's

20:10

something of pride. It's pride in identity,

20:12

pride in country, it's

20:14

a belief in self-government escaping

20:17

from being ruled from down south.

20:20

And yet most other parts of the world

20:22

nationalism is often seen in a very different

20:24

way as a kind of hostile to others,

20:27

aggressive look after all at

20:29

the region that your father came from. Nationalism

20:32

in Pakistan, nationalism in India now

20:35

is very destructive, very

20:37

dangerous arguably. I think that's right and

20:39

that's why I don't make the comparisons

20:41

by the way, and I should be

20:43

very clear about that, I don't make

20:45

the comparisons between what happened in

20:47

partition with what we're being here in Scotland,

20:50

that's a very obvious point to make but

20:52

worth reiterating. I mean I've

20:54

never really been comfortable with the fact that we

20:56

have national in our party's

21:00

name, not because I think the

21:03

founding members of the SNP had any far-right

21:07

inclination, they certainly didn't already nationalist

21:09

inclination in the way that you

21:12

express it there, but

21:14

because it can't be misinterpreted. But

21:16

we are the Scottish National Party, we

21:18

have a very strong brand, very

21:21

strong identity, but we've worked really hard to

21:23

make it really clear and I think this now

21:25

is well understood that we're a civic national party,

21:28

but a party that believes doesn't matter really where

21:30

you come from, what's important is where are we

21:32

going together and there's no doubt about our politics

21:34

being very rooted in the left,

21:36

in the centre-left of political

21:38

discourse. Well as soon as you say the centre-left,

21:40

because you've said in the past that

21:43

is hero too, struggle word, inspiration

21:45

maybe, is golden

21:47

brown. Oh I don't think I've

21:49

said either of those. I think the word inspiration

21:51

I was told. I think I was told admire.

21:54

Yeah we'll disagree on things I suspect we'd agree

21:56

on much more, I wish we could work together

21:59

you once said. Yes, look, my political approach

22:01

always from day one that I've entered politics

22:03

is try not to look at the party

22:05

label of an individual and try to see

22:07

whether or not I can get along with

22:09

them, work with them and collaborate with them.

22:11

But beyond independence, can you think of anything

22:13

you disagree with at all? I

22:16

don't know, I haven't examined Gordon Brown's policies

22:18

in all that much detail. But can you

22:20

think of anything that you wouldn't fit perfectly

22:23

comfortably within the Labour Party other than independence?

22:25

Well, I mean, the current Labour Party, there's

22:27

a number of things that I would disagree

22:29

with. For example, I don't think they are

22:32

serious about tackling poverty, otherwise they would commit

22:34

to lifting the two-child limit. These debates happen

22:36

all the time. They still have problems. And

22:38

I don't think that a party that genuinely

22:41

believes in, for example, progressive taxation in the

22:43

way that I do at the moment. So

22:45

I've got a fair number of disagreements. What I admire about

22:48

Gordon Brown and I admired

22:50

about Alstah Darling is, look,

22:53

there's two people, Scottish, incredible

22:57

experience. One is Prime Minister, Prime Minister and

22:59

Chancellor, and the other one, now, Stalin's case,

23:02

is Chancellor. These

23:04

are people that I

23:06

would absolutely value having a conversation with and saying,

23:08

we may disagree on the Constitution, and there's other

23:11

things we'll disagree on, but where can

23:13

we learn and where can I learn from the experience that you've had

23:15

in those important

23:17

roles? But you see, sometimes looking from the

23:19

outside, I confess, I am looking from

23:21

the outside in on Scottish politics. It

23:24

looks like that scene in Life of Brian. This

23:26

is the People's Popular Front of Judea versus

23:28

the Popular People's Front of Judea. You

23:31

basically agree about politics.

23:33

Yeah, of course, you'll have an argument about

23:35

this tax rate or that benefit or

23:38

this policy, but you're involved

23:40

in some extraordinary Shakespearean, intonight,

23:42

Nisargon war. Well, the Romans,

23:44

by the way, in the film

23:46

The Tories in this case, are laughing

23:49

because you're fighting. Actually, what I would

23:51

say is a couple of things. One,

23:53

there is a lot more actually in

23:55

our politics that unites us than divides

23:57

us. The Constitution, though, is not

23:59

a small matter. I'm sure we'll get into the detail of

24:02

that. I mean that is fundamentally an issue here

24:04

in Scotland and I'm sure we'll be getting on

24:06

to talking about the general election. In

24:09

Scotland that's why a large part of my

24:11

message to those who believe in independence which

24:13

is sitting around 50-50 depends on which poll

24:16

you look at, but around the 50% mark. Look,

24:19

Q Stammars going to be the next Prime Minister of

24:21

the United Kingdom, there's no part, so maybe he's about it,

24:23

he's going to be the Prime Minister. So

24:25

if you believe in independence vote for what you

24:27

believe in. Vote for a party that is going

24:30

to help you to deliver and advance that cause

24:32

of independence. Which of course they say if you

24:34

believe in Q Stammars then you better vote for

24:36

him because you can't take the result for granting.

24:39

The general election has nothing to do

24:41

with independence, it's a choice for who

24:44

occupies number 10. No, what

24:46

you can say is Q Stammars doesn't need Scotland 20, he's 20-25

24:48

points ahead in the polls.

24:50

If you can show me a single poll or

24:52

tell me of a single poll that does not

24:55

show a sweeping victory for

24:58

Q Stammars, I haven't seen

25:00

it yet. I can tell you that Theresa

25:02

May said something quite similar in 2017. But

25:05

it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what she said,

25:07

the polls have of course been consistent. So

25:11

he doesn't need Scotland to win. What Scotland

25:13

does need though is that Westminster

25:15

listens to our country and the only way

25:18

Westminster listens to Scotland doesn't ignore

25:20

Scotland is when you have a large cohort

25:22

of SNP MPs. Well let's talk a

25:24

little bit about some of the hurdles you've got to overcome

25:26

in the introduction I said, you had a few. One you're

25:29

going to tell me is not for you, it's for

25:31

the police. But just briefly, on

25:34

this police investigation, are

25:37

people entitled to know the outcome of that before

25:39

they go to the ballot box? That

25:42

would be me interfering in the police investigation because

25:45

it would be me saying that the police have

25:47

to conclude that investigation at a

25:49

certain time scale. I can't do that, I've got to let

25:51

the police do what they've got to do in the time

25:53

that they've got to do it. I suppose

25:55

it's fair to say and I'm not going

25:57

to treat your listeners as a as

26:01

fools, the police investigation has been one of

26:03

the most difficult times for

26:05

the party. There's no ifs or buts or

26:07

maybe's about it and there has clearly been

26:09

an impact in terms of how we're

26:11

perceived by the public and issues of trust

26:14

and I've got to work hard, I hope I have been doing

26:16

over the last 10 months, I've got to work hard to

26:18

make sure that people know whatever the outcome

26:20

of that police investigation is that the SNP

26:23

is a party they can trust. But it's

26:25

been difficult, no doubt, for those

26:27

involved, certainly no doubt about that, but difficult

26:30

for us as a party and certainly been a challenge

26:32

for me in the first 10 months. Talking

26:34

of those involved, do you still think Nicholas Sturgeon is

26:36

the most impressive politician in Europe? Yes,

26:39

I think if you look at what she's

26:41

achieved politically, the successes she's had in multiple

26:43

elections, what she's been able to do within government,

26:46

then yes I don't doubt that she's one

26:49

of the most if not the most impressive politician in

26:52

Europe from a political perspective. You wouldn't be

26:54

human if you didn't occasionally look and

26:57

think what on earth did they do?

27:01

Again that would be a matter for the investigation

27:03

in terms of what

27:05

has happened. I don't know

27:08

much more of course than what we

27:10

hear and see in the press

27:12

of course I'll get regularly updated and informed from

27:14

our party flister, but whatever happens

27:16

in that police investigation I've got a job

27:18

to do to make sure that

27:21

the SNP is a trusted party and that's

27:23

what I'll be doing from now until the

27:25

general election and beyond. Well that brings us to problem

27:27

two. Problem one is the police investigation.

27:29

You are very clear and you've been clear throughout

27:31

the time you've been first minister. It's all about

27:33

delivery. You said if

27:35

we deliver we're credible, if we're credible people will carry

27:37

on, support you. When

27:40

you look though at the

27:43

record, this isn't the interview

27:45

to go in detail through this and that policy,

27:47

but when you look at the record on public

27:49

services, on health, on education

27:52

which allowed the woman who ran against you to be

27:54

leader to say when you

27:56

were transform ministers the trains were never on time, when

27:58

you were justice minister the police was training. into breaking

28:00

point as health minister, we got

28:02

record waiting, John. Do you have

28:05

to look the electorate in the

28:07

eye and say, we haven't

28:09

delivered well enough? No,

28:11

I think what we say to the electorate is,

28:13

of 16 and

28:15

a half years in government, here's what

28:17

we've delivered. I won't go through all

28:19

of the detail, but talking about the

28:21

fact that last year alone we've lifted

28:23

90,000 children out of poverty, here's

28:26

what we're delivering for you in the midst of

28:28

a cost-to-living crisis from free education to not paying

28:30

a penny for your prescriptions, etc.,

28:32

etc. So I can go through all of the record and I

28:34

won't do that for this podcast, but we've got a bit

28:37

of the honesty bit which you ask about and I think

28:39

is very legitimate. It seems to people

28:41

that we haven't achieved everything we've wanted to achieve and

28:43

where we've had failures though, where we've

28:45

not stepped up to the mark, we've

28:47

been upfront about that, we've been open about

28:49

that and we endeavour to learn from the

28:51

lessons from that. If you can point to

28:54

any government that's been in power for 16

28:56

and a half years, as long as we have been and

28:59

that hasn't had setbacks, in

29:03

the face of by the way extraordinary

29:05

headwinds and look some of those are

29:07

due to funding decisions and cuts that

29:09

are made for Westminster, some of them are

29:11

wholly our mistakes, we will own

29:13

them, hold our hands up and make sure we deliver

29:16

better. But they haven't been in power

29:18

for a very, very long time, longer

29:20

than the Tories in Westminster. Someone

29:23

said to me the other day, did you realise

29:25

that the iPhone hadn't been invented when the S&P

29:28

came into power in Scotland?

29:31

And then you look and say, educational

29:34

results in Scotland are slipping down the

29:36

international league tables, winning, Glendir. It's rising.

29:38

The life expectancy for Scots has

29:40

seen the sharpest fall in 40

29:42

years. You'd have to give

29:45

yourself a school report of must do much, much

29:47

better, wouldn't you? No, I would look at 16

29:49

and a half years and I would say that

29:51

we have lifted 90,000 children out of poverty last

29:54

year. Under the S&P

29:56

There's been not only records staffing

29:58

the NHS, but the best. That

30:00

more Gps per head than rest of

30:02

the Uk. by looked at Gdp per

30:05

income. And I just did.

30:07

For population than we are growing. Be

30:09

of groans as the as in peace

30:11

been in power than ten percent Uk

30:13

has been about six percent felt the

30:15

productivity growth we about percent a year

30:17

uk half a percent year. So I

30:19

can point to where we've been able

30:22

to deliver. But all of that has

30:24

been characterized by social contract that we've

30:26

never shied away from. So that has

30:28

made than that social contract. Yep, if

30:30

you're on top five percent of North

30:32

and Scotland's you, maybe I'll pay more

30:34

and tax I feel top. And are

30:36

like myself, your pillow Bit more tax

30:39

to the social contract means that. There.

30:41

Are a number of universal benefits that only

30:44

available in Scotland not being a single penny

30:46

from Java Se Twist and some of the

30:48

best best is in the world to see

30:50

childcare prescription charges of already mentioned bus travel

30:53

see bus travel from the Twenty two them

30:55

for sex also benefit for our souls know

30:57

expertly to the that does not the case

31:00

if you look are any performance or any

31:02

performance has been better than any departments in

31:04

England and Wales for the last eight years.

31:06

We're not going to child and other this

31:09

doctor that's that's for another the Us. To

31:12

do that another source of interview

31:14

as well. let me just remains

31:16

were so close by I'll see

31:18

the obvious that which is about

31:20

independence itself, which is arguably problem

31:22

three that you face at the

31:25

moment. Also, the police investigation after

31:27

delivery is that. Yes,

31:30

you are pretty much the position you

31:32

were said years or so ago when

31:35

people that use it the country's pretty

31:37

much divided down the middle about whether

31:39

three independent or not but the idea

31:41

of independence is drop down people's list

31:44

of priorities just not what they want

31:46

to talk about just now so many

31:48

many people as it from muscle my

31:51

job is to make sure that i

31:53

sure that independence is relevant to people's

31:55

of edu lives and priorities because the

31:58

my view it very much as overtake

32:00

The issue, so you've said independence polls

32:03

have shown that the actual issue of independence may well

32:05

have dropped down. I think it went down

32:07

to 7th and what's the number one issue? The

32:11

economy and cost of living. And independence

32:14

is absolutely fundamental to both.

32:17

When it comes to our economy unleashing

32:19

the full potential, well we don't have

32:21

the monetary, the fiscal levers, we don't

32:23

have control over employment law, competition law,

32:26

corporation tax, the whole suite

32:28

of taxation that could help to boost our

32:31

economy. It's absolutely linked to the cost

32:33

of living crisis. We

32:35

didn't bring forward a disastrous mini-budget

32:37

that torpedoed the economy. We didn't vote

32:40

for Brexit and I think that's

32:42

the opportunity. You remind me of some of the

32:44

people in the 1980s who used to say, if

32:46

we had real socialism, everything would be fine. We

32:48

might control the whole of the health service. That's

32:50

not going so well but if you just get

32:53

with even more powers, we'd

32:55

get things right. The opposite. I would say look

32:57

what we've been able to do with the powers

32:59

that we've got. Look how we've charted a different

33:01

course. Now you get Keir Starmer

33:04

who will say to people of the UK,

33:07

you cannot abolish tuition fees and

33:09

invest in the NHS and

33:11

do this and do that. And we're able to say

33:13

in Scotland actually we're doing it. And

33:16

by the way we could do a hell of a lot

33:18

more if we had the full powers of independence. So my

33:21

argument during this general election very clearly

33:23

will be to people, but look

33:25

there is a better way. We

33:27

don't have to remain in this

33:29

Brexit based economy that without a

33:31

shadow without, all of the independent

33:33

analysis shows is a failing economy,

33:35

a complete outlier than the rest

33:37

of northwest Europe. And we

33:40

can chart a different course here in Scotland. You

33:42

can do what happened after Brexit.

33:44

It includes more trade barriers, more

33:46

regulation, more barriers to goods going

33:48

across borders to people doing jobs

33:50

across... It's a curious recipe. We

33:54

could have unfettered access to

33:56

an EU single market that's seven times the

33:58

size of... the UK

34:00

market. That is

34:03

the opportunity and the prize that you want to have and that's the

34:06

debate we'll have if and when there's another

34:09

independence referendum. Now throughout this you've said that

34:11

you believe Keir Starmer as the next Prime

34:13

Minister. I'm not sure he yet believes

34:17

that. He in

34:19

a way is in the position you were in two

34:22

Hognemey's ago not knowing what

34:25

was going to happen. He's

34:27

your political opponent but I guess you have some

34:31

empathy with the position he's in. What would

34:33

you advise him about? Taking

34:36

power. I'd advise him to

34:39

be radical and be bold. He's

34:41

20 to 25% ahead in the polls. He's going to be the next

34:45

Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. I've not found a

34:47

person in the country be a political

34:49

analyst or a member of the public that doesn't think

34:52

Keir Starmer is going to be the next Prime Minister.

34:54

As I say, if Scotland had an opportunity to say

34:56

if you want to get rid of Tory

34:58

MPs in Scotland, the

35:00

way you do that is you vote SNP because we're

35:03

second place in every single Tory seat north

35:05

of the border. Vote for what

35:07

you believe in. But what I say to Keir Starmer

35:09

is why are you not coming forward with a bold

35:11

and radical plan? This is exactly the time to do

35:13

it. You know you're going to be the next Prime

35:15

Minister and instead what we see

35:17

is this triangulation of policies with

35:19

the Conservatives and the only really policy

35:22

of difference that I've seen from Keir Starmer

35:24

is the Green Prosperity Fund. And even that

35:26

has gone from being a plan to being

35:28

an ambition or a confident ambition beginning

35:31

to roll back. And I should say this last point that

35:33

I'm very willing, I have to say as

35:35

First Minister of Scotland, to work with

35:37

the UK Labour government in order and

35:39

the best interests of Scotland. Of course

35:41

I'll continue to push for the powers

35:43

for a second referendum. That goes almost

35:46

without saying. But in terms of unleashing Scotland's

35:48

potential and renewables, I would also work with

35:50

Labour to lift the two child limit, for

35:52

example across the United Kingdom. So there's lots

35:55

we can work together on to see Keir

35:57

Starmer show a bit of backbone, be

35:59

bold, be the house. the cold don't dump all your

36:01

policies and that is what the

36:03

country is probably looking for. And personal advice

36:05

about what it's like not as a party

36:08

animal, not as a politician, what

36:10

is it like as a human being? Draw your

36:12

boundaries and make sure you spend time with your

36:14

family. You know I

36:16

have been a government minister for 11 and

36:19

a half years in various different ministerial offices

36:22

and I would say in 2016 towards the end of 2016 I had burnt

36:24

both ends of the wick and

36:29

I mean I'm not ashamed to say I

36:31

went for counselling because I was

36:34

near a breakdown point and

36:36

I didn't draw any boundaries in terms of

36:38

my personal relationships effectively lost a marriage over

36:40

actually and you know there's other issues too

36:43

no doubt but you know sacrifices

36:45

of your family relationships and

36:48

it's not right. Your family's

36:50

always going to be there for you and

36:53

so I made a very deliberate decision thereafter

36:55

and certainly as first minister to

36:58

draw those boundaries so my team knows on

37:00

a Monday between seven

37:02

and eight we don't disturb

37:04

him because he's giving his four-year-old a

37:07

bath and he's reading Never Ever

37:09

Tickle a Tiger which is a great book that

37:11

I can recommend to put his little one

37:14

to bed so they know that there's boundaries there and

37:16

on the weekend I'll say to him yeah I'll

37:19

go through the box I'll do what needs done but

37:21

you know what I need Sunday

37:23

you know at least until

37:25

three four o'clock where I'm just

37:27

not doing anything but spending time with the kids and

37:30

that's it so if I was sending to

37:32

Syracuse Darmour on a personal level is

37:35

from the very beginning draw those boundaries and

37:38

make sure you don't overly

37:40

sacrifice time with your family. You said at the

37:42

beginning of this interview that you worried about

37:45

the impact on your two

37:47

girls when your teenage

37:49

stepdaughter and your four-year-old he

37:51

has said at Darmour that it

37:53

is the biggest worry that on

37:56

this program was how to

37:58

protect his children. Is there

38:00

a way is it possible or do you just have

38:03

to bleed frankly with people like me with journalists with

38:05

others to say Give

38:07

us the space It's hard

38:09

and it's not actually even the

38:11

overt intrusion because to some extent

38:14

You've got to accept that as part of the job and

38:17

it's a hard part of the job Just

38:20

kind of going out to the park when I take my four-year-old

38:23

And I see the person come out with a mobile

38:25

phone and begin to either take a picture or record

38:28

you just feel a bit unsettled and You

38:31

know that your four-year-old is can see it

38:33

your 14 year old can see

38:36

it and it's like they're unsettled

38:39

And there's that difficulty in that balance between

38:41

people understandably want to know

38:43

who you are as a human being and They

38:46

can't understand me or I suspect you stammer without knowing

38:48

our family because it's such a big part of who

38:50

we are But where

38:52

do you draw the line and I think that is

38:54

a difficulty and as I say you

38:57

can protect your four-year-old a little Bit more 14

38:59

year old who's on various different social

39:01

media sites, even though we try to protect her from

39:03

that You know,

39:05

that's a little bit harder more difficult

39:07

to protect I'm the

39:09

UCF first Minister of Scotland. Thanks

39:11

for joining me on political thinking Thank you I'm

39:16

John Ronson and I'm back with season two

39:18

of things fell apart I

39:21

show for BBC Radio 4 that unearths

39:23

the origin stories of the culture wars

39:26

This time around the stories are all about

39:28

the battlefronts that engulfed us during

39:31

lockdown The stories twist

39:33

and turn until each one ends

39:35

with the explosion of a new

39:38

far-reaching Cultural war if you

39:40

tell me that my nephew

39:42

had superhuman strength if you tell

39:44

me that he didn't feel any pain Well,

39:47

he's dead now. That's things fell

39:49

apart season two listen on

39:51

BBC sounds Tired

39:59

of ads interrupting for your gripping investigations.

40:02

Good news, Ad-free listening on Amazon

40:04

Music is included with your Prime membership.

40:06

Ads shouldn't be the scariest thing about true crime.

40:09

Just head to amazon.com/ad-free true crime

40:11

to catch up on the latest

40:14

episodes without the ads. Enjoy thousands of

40:16

A-Cast shows ad-free for Prime subscribers. Some shows may have ads.

40:18

shows may have ads.