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with a free trial at britbox.com. Hello

1:00

and welcome to Political Thinking.

1:20

A conversation with rather than

1:22

a newsy interrogation of someone

1:24

who shapes our political thinking.

1:28

This week I've been to number

1:30

11 Downing Street. I've been there

1:32

to talk to Jeremy Hunt, who's

1:34

preparing the budget that he's going

1:36

to deliver in a few weeks

1:38

time. What was striking about

1:41

our conversation is how

1:43

willing he was to hit

1:45

back at those who are telling him

1:48

not to cut taxes. All

1:50

those organisations with acronyms. The

1:53

IMF. The OBR. The

1:56

IFS. Mr Hunt,

1:58

remember, became Chancellor. What?

2:00

Less Trust. Tried to cut taxes

2:03

in a hurry and created something

2:05

of an economic mess to it's

2:07

that now he wants to be

2:10

the guy. Who. Says he

2:12

can deliver cuts in

2:14

taxation. He's. Added to the.

2:17

Which. Also thank you for having us

2:19

here Inside number Eleven Euro The Grand

2:21

Daddy Group. Guess welcome Nick it's a

2:23

great to see you here. were Eleven

2:26

Downing Street. This is your office E

2:28

S ah you house meetings and it

2:30

is in this particular room but it

2:32

is also you will home. What is

2:34

it like living above the shop? For.

2:37

The first these the I never expected

2:40

to be here and as i think

2:42

you know when I when i got

2:44

the call from listless i was so

2:46

disbelieving that i actually zoc to refuse

2:48

to take it because i didn't see

2:51

could possibly be wanting to call me

2:53

says quite a big surprise and of

2:55

course a huge privilege to be here

2:57

and the loveliest thing about is is

3:00

that my family or the site upstairs

3:02

and for my kids can walk into

3:04

my study and we can chat about

3:06

this and that. And a nice

3:08

I gotta say to my for I

3:11

like spending time with my kids that

3:13

have a bit of a conscience for

3:15

the haven't been enough as up to

3:18

date and say that is mostly up.

3:20

It's also fun living next door to

3:22

the soon acts and the families get

3:25

home with one exception of dogs to

3:27

nip at. On have a very assertive

3:29

female labrador and Rishi has a rather

3:32

shy mail labrador rival Doc says he

3:34

told says sometimes of us my puppy

3:36

overwhelms his nova. but apart from that

3:38

it is all harmony yet so you

3:41

also really rename that off to war

3:43

and chances could you could call one

3:45

dot factor in the other don't little

3:47

certain yes brown and black mask exactly

3:49

that would be as that would be

3:51

a as a great idea maybe for

3:54

the puppies with follow snow or in

3:56

this beautiful is outlined dining room but

3:58

i can see his editor that the

4:00

family are part of number 11, there's

4:02

a piano. Is this where the practice

4:04

happens, away from the flat? Actually,

4:07

there is another piano upstairs

4:09

which belongs to the government

4:12

and they tend to practice on that.

4:14

When we moved in here, that is our family

4:17

piano and the removal company wanted an extra 3,000

4:19

pounds to hump it up

4:21

the stairs. And we said, no thank you,

4:23

and that's why it's there. That's the austerity

4:25

plan. The austerity piano. Now you mentioned living

4:27

next to the boss as

4:29

well as living here with your family. It's

4:32

a curious thing to live next to a boss. Do

4:34

you bump into each other? With the dogs, without the

4:36

dogs? Outside meetings, of course, in

4:38

the cabinet. We do, perhaps

4:41

not as much as you might think because

4:43

we both lead very busy lives.

4:46

But as you would imagine

4:48

with Rishi Sunak, there's a lot of weekend

4:50

working and I would say

4:53

that the most common way we bump into each other

4:55

is probably at weekends when he will pop round to

4:57

my office in number 11 and

4:59

have a chat about this or that.

5:01

And... Now does he do to you

5:03

what he used to do to the Treasury simple service

5:05

because he's a former chancellor, of course. And

5:08

when I spoke to officials in the Treasury, they went,

5:11

my God, he brings his own spreadsheets by

5:13

which I mean he's actually stayed up at

5:15

night on the laptop and produced his own

5:17

very complex financial spreadsheets. Does he do that

5:19

to you? That and the

5:21

rest. I mean, this is someone we

5:23

have never had. I've never had a boss, never

5:25

had anyone I've worked with who works as hard

5:28

as he does. And

5:31

that is why one of the things that, you know, he's

5:34

not often credited with is

5:36

the restoring of international relations with

5:38

our key ally, the United States,

5:41

France, and so on. And I

5:43

think one of the reasons for that is he

5:45

goes into those meetings and he

5:47

really knows about all the things that

5:50

the other person wants to talk about.

5:52

And that creates the ability to have

5:55

a certain kind of bond. So he is

5:57

absolutely on top, of course, if you're working for him. You

6:00

really do need to know about that detail because no one wants

6:02

to think that their boss knows more than they do We

6:07

taught last time you're on political thinking about your

6:09

business background and before you were very successful Crazy

6:12

a business and selling it for a lot of money.

6:14

You had a few failures Forgive me for reminding

6:17

you I think we talked about trying to sell

6:19

marmalade to the Japanese last time You're on he

6:22

on the other hand is not a businessman as

6:24

such as he he's a markets guy He

6:26

moved vast sums of money in the financial

6:28

markets. Do you come at things in different ways?

6:31

we do and that is incredibly helpful when it

6:33

comes to bigots because of course you've got to

6:36

do both and you know,

6:38

I Have an

6:40

entrepreneur's focus on how

6:43

we can grow. I don't know our technology

6:45

sector, which is my own background What

6:48

he has is enormous Experience

6:50

as to how all the numbers come

6:52

together to Bake

6:55

the cake that you need at the end

6:57

of the day. So, um, that

6:59

actually has been very helpful and

7:01

You know touch wood. I haven't had a budget

7:04

that's gone wrong Or

7:06

a fiscal event that's gone wrong and

7:08

I would say that his advice at

7:10

crucial moments is What's

7:13

made sure that I haven't made those kind

7:15

of silly errors that you know have tripped

7:17

up chances in the past what gone wrong?

7:19

My proposing I mean famously George Osborne apparently

7:21

has a podcast these days He actually

7:24

introduced a pasty tax and a caravan

7:26

tax that budget became known as the

7:29

Omni shambles budget You've been gone wrong in that way

7:31

so far so good But what I will say is that

7:33

following the the pasty tax the

7:36

Treasury had a whole team of people every

7:39

budget who are specifically going through line

7:41

by line to spot the

7:43

pasty and So far

7:45

touch would I haven't had that problem the Golden

7:47

Browns advisor once described how budgets were written Some

7:51

years back and it

7:53

may be it was at this very table that

7:55

every single proposal Was scribbled

7:57

down on a card with

7:59

what the idea how much will it cost and you move the

8:01

cars around you know the ones you're going to do go to one end

8:03

of the day with the ones you're not going to do. Is that how

8:06

it works? It's got a bit more high-tech

8:08

than that. We basically have the

8:11

weirdest spreadsheet you will

8:13

ever see. It's an

8:15

A3 double-sided spreadsheet and

8:19

roughly speaking it has how we're

8:21

planning to spend a trillion

8:24

pounds of taxpayers money on one side

8:27

and how we've been planning to raise usually

8:29

unfortunately a bit less than a trillion in

8:31

tax receipts on the other side and every

8:35

number on there is a billion so

8:37

the numbers are huge and it's called

8:39

a scorecard and it's kind of a

8:41

running tally and the

8:44

lines that are highlighted are the ones that you switched on

8:46

so you decide you want to do those and the lines

8:49

that are not highlighted are the ones that you are

8:51

considering and so you're

8:54

able to tot up the whole time but it's it's

8:57

a real moving feast because

9:00

every measure you do

9:02

has what's called an indirect effect.

9:04

I'm sorry to go into the lingo but it you

9:06

know as chance you really

9:08

have to understand this so you might think for

9:10

example that you know a penny

9:12

cut in national insurance like we did in the

9:15

autumn statement is going to cost four and a

9:17

half billion but then you

9:19

find out that that is going to mean

9:21

maybe fifty thousand more

9:23

people in work which has an effect on

9:25

GDP and has a fact on the taxes

9:28

paid so you then go

9:30

through this process of working out the indirect effects

9:34

and and seeing enough in other words

9:36

whether the gains can partly offset the

9:38

golf. Yes or

9:40

indeed whether conversely if

9:42

you are increasing taxes sometimes the cost

9:45

will be even more because if you

9:47

increase tax you reduce

9:49

the amount of money people spend and that has

9:51

an indirect effect as well so it moves in

9:53

different directions. Now you have moved in this sense

9:55

as you said you were appointed by a list

9:57

trust and the time you were appointed

10:00

A feeling was you with a

10:03

guy who's been brought in not

10:05

just a steady the to stop

10:07

the Titanic from sinking mean Britain's

10:10

reputation was going down the plughole

10:12

to picks my methods as how

10:14

did it feel was repeatedly So

10:16

onto releasing albums very much. I

10:21

didn't hesitate for totally selfish reason

10:23

that I was chaired the Health

10:25

and Social Cassoulet committee and I

10:27

have set a very comfortable life

10:29

and I was spending more time

10:32

with my kids and enjoy my

10:34

parliamentary duties and I knew this

10:36

would be like right into the

10:38

hearts of some really difficult decisions

10:40

on but you know I I

10:42

come from quite a traditional background

10:44

and my dad would as I

10:46

think turned in his grave as

10:49

he saw that I've passed the

10:51

opportunity. To do something that is potentially

10:53

important the country so didn't take long

10:55

out in the road. A Vr exact

10:57

and out of and I'm and I

10:59

think those decisions because there was a

11:01

a market crisis. The decisions are quite

11:03

straightforward. I mean we just need to

11:06

work out what is the right thing

11:08

to do and then. Some

11:10

accounts or what your argument is

11:12

gonna be and. In. A

11:14

Fundamentally. I'd

11:16

take some horrible decisions particular for conservative

11:19

putting out taxes and the key thing

11:21

people wants to nose is he going

11:23

to be sad about the way he

11:25

did it. So I've spent time on

11:27

that bit of it did you? By

11:30

the way, that concept is in particular

11:32

Greece's You because I was reading up

11:34

Sarah Vine not just about all the

11:36

miss puts cause used to be market

11:38

goes. Weiss said having Jeremy takeovers chancers

11:40

a bit like ordering rump states on

11:43

your shop and forty. Lives substitute. It

11:45

was a tougher you birds eye to

11:47

eye. A. Sarah is funny and I'm

11:49

I. I just see like com did.

11:51

It made me laugh but a month

11:53

I think my weakness snake is that

11:55

I'm I'm just never been particularly sensitive

11:57

about most recent or said about me.

11:59

I've. Isis take the view that

12:01

as part of of what happens in

12:04

politics you self conscious lady. Low

12:06

key and stressing the responsible up until

12:08

September of last year we're not in

12:11

a position to talk about tax cuts

12:13

we can't possibly do it would go

12:15

to get the finances right? Yes. Or

12:17

the great irony for me is that

12:20

some I'm probably seen as Mr. Study

12:22

the Ship Mister Satan Sensible. was I

12:24

gonna? Every single job I've gone into

12:26

a question of us myself is what

12:28

is can be different when I leave

12:31

this job compared to when I rise.

12:33

And what will people say about me

12:35

and five. Years time, In

12:38

terms of what has actually changed and

12:40

so on, it's ah, that sort of

12:42

way that are viewed as probably not

12:44

how I see myself when I was

12:46

in a health secretary for example. Probably.

12:49

The thing I'm most proud of his

12:51

the fact that we put in place

12:53

a plan to train more doctors which

12:55

concluded with the long term workforce plan

12:57

that Mrs. Snack announced last year. I

12:59

look at that and I think something

13:01

that really changed of it's. Genuinely.

13:03

Diving would happen without me and I cast

13:06

far more about that's and what the fuck

13:08

did you get else is run a great

13:10

friends jeremy help when I saw me weren't

13:12

I need an have so little Spiegel fans

13:15

of his chancellor But what I want to

13:17

do is you know but when I'm out

13:19

of it I want to look back and

13:21

say come. I really point to something that

13:24

was different as a result of my time

13:26

but the puzzle asked for some people who

13:28

bolts mages use a terrifying was mocking is

13:31

they think you're Clark Kent you don't into

13:33

a telephone. Box in you've emerged is

13:35

tax cutting Super bad. This guy came

13:37

into office a lot. You don't have

13:39

any of that mistress crash the market

13:42

by proxy to cut taxes suddenly emerges

13:44

in seabirds outfit signal Us tax cuts

13:46

habits. The will. Look.

13:48

i'm i'm a conservative and

13:50

i really do believe when

13:52

you look around the world

13:54

that the countries that are

13:56

most dynamic that a growing

13:58

the fastest on therefore have the

14:00

ability to fund their schools and their

14:02

hospitals and all the things that really

14:04

matter, are countries with lower

14:07

taxes. And you look at the dynamism

14:09

in North America and Asia and by

14:11

and large these are countries with lower

14:13

tax burdens. So I think there is

14:15

a big choice for us as a country. Do

14:18

we want to get closer to France

14:20

and Germany that have higher levels of

14:22

tax or do we want to have

14:24

more productive public services with lower levels

14:26

of tax and a more dynamic economy?

14:28

That hasn't changed at all. I

14:31

think that what was very

14:33

clear when I inherited the

14:36

difficult situation I did is that

14:39

tax cuts that are funded through increases

14:41

in borrowing won't work,

14:43

the markets won't accept them and they're

14:45

not really credible with the public either.

14:48

And so if you want to go on that journey to

14:50

lower taxes you've got to do it in

14:53

a measured, responsible way. But

14:55

yes, I have always been a conservative MP and

14:57

I've always believed in lower taxes. You had some

15:00

advice this week. The

15:02

International Monetary Fund said

15:05

we would advise against further

15:07

discretionary tax cuts as envisaged

15:10

and discussed now. Have

15:12

you got some advice for your friends at

15:14

the IMF? What I would say

15:16

to them is that like

15:19

the IMF I

15:21

believe in properly funded public services

15:24

but if you look at what is

15:27

happening and the pressures on the NHS and the

15:29

social care system, you know I've talked about many

15:32

times in the Today Program studio, we're only going

15:34

to be able to afford that if

15:36

we have an economy that's really growing. So

15:39

the right type of tax cut is

15:41

going to mean that we can afford those public services. So

15:43

what were the two tax cuts that I did in the

15:45

autumn? One was giving us

15:48

the most competitive business investment taxes in

15:50

the world which will lead to

15:52

part of a package that will

15:54

lead to about 20 billion more invested every year.

15:57

But also the cut in national insurance which will

16:00

lead to the equivalent of nearly 100,000 more

16:02

people in work, which will fill about one

16:04

in ten of the vacancies, again, helping to

16:06

grow the economy. So, you

16:08

know, untargeted tax

16:10

cuts that are

16:12

just crowd pleasers, I agree with the

16:14

IMF, but if they are strategic, smart

16:17

tax cuts, then that is

16:19

a very important part of the strategy to grow

16:22

the economy. You're being polite and you're making an

16:24

argument. Can I suggest when you heard what the

16:26

IMF said that you, maybe the Prime Minister, came

16:28

into your study, were less polite? Didn't you

16:31

just say, butt out? This is

16:33

a political choice. Who are

16:35

you to tell us, a French economist based

16:37

in the United States, what we should do

16:39

with our economy? Well, I have

16:41

many private conversations with the IMF and I have

16:44

public exchanges with them and I'm afraid the podcast

16:46

is not the moment to share the private exchanges,

16:48

but what I would say is I think... But

16:50

the private exchange was robust. Well,

16:52

I think, you know, what

16:54

the IMF were really saying,

16:56

I think, is that

16:58

when they use that word, discretion is that, you

17:01

know, a tax cut that isn't going to

17:03

help grow the economy over the long run wouldn't be the right thing to

17:05

do. I will give them

17:08

the benefit of the doubt. That's what I think they were saying

17:10

and that's what I hope they were saying and if they were,

17:12

I would agree with it. There weren't the only ones that were.

17:14

The Institute for Fiscal Studies say, look,

17:16

any tax cut that comes now means

17:18

a tax rise after the

17:20

election or a spending cut and you're

17:23

not being open or honest about that. They argue. Well,

17:26

I totally disagree with that. And

17:30

look, I would say this. You

17:33

have had politician after politician on your

17:35

programme and on your show who said,

17:39

we're going to make efficiency savings that

17:41

mean we don't have to raise taxes

17:43

or whatever. We are

17:45

now in a moment where we

17:47

really do have to make a choice. Do

17:49

we want a more productive state or

17:51

a bigger state? And if we have a bigger

17:53

state, that will be higher taxes. We

17:56

happen to be the country which is

17:58

second only to the United States. States

18:00

when it comes to technology and artificial

18:02

intelligence. And I think

18:05

someone like the NHS, which has seen the

18:08

money from the state go up grammatically, there

18:12

are huge opportunities to improve efficiency.

18:14

So I can understand scepticism that some commentators have.

18:17

Oh, well, he's just like all the other politicians

18:19

who say we're going to change things. We

18:21

are going to change things. We have to change things. And

18:24

in the budget, I hope I'll show how. I think

18:26

the reason people are sceptical is they say for all

18:28

the talk, the Conservatives have been

18:30

pretty hopeless at cutting spending. You

18:33

cut things that we notice years

18:35

later, which aren't visible at the time. Capital

18:38

spending, infrastructure spending. You cut the

18:41

budgets for the courts, the

18:43

pay packets of junior doctors. We all pay a

18:46

price for all of this over a few years.

18:48

But the really difficult choice is let's stop doing

18:50

this in order to

18:52

make the state smaller. The

18:54

Conservatives have no track record of doing that. Well,

18:57

I don't think, if

18:59

I may say, Nick, I think your memory is surprisingly

19:02

short term on that. I mean,

19:04

I entered government in 2010. We made

19:06

a huge number of incredibly difficult

19:08

decisions that actually were cut in

19:11

public. I mean, my departmental budget of the department

19:13

of country media and small was cut by 24%,

19:16

an actual cut of 24%. So

19:19

I think we have made difficult

19:21

decisions. But I think the

19:23

opportunity you now have with technology is

19:26

to spend more efficiently and more productively

19:28

without reducing the services that the public

19:30

experience. It's the journey we need to

19:32

go on. So you're saying not another

19:34

era of austerity, despite the fact that

19:38

the OBR, the Office for

19:40

Budget Responsibility, the guys

19:42

who do the number crunching on behalf of the

19:44

country, said that the spending

19:46

plans were, quote, a work of fiction.

19:49

And then went on to say that's probably being generous

19:51

because someone writes down a work of fiction and

19:53

the government hasn't even bothered to write down what

19:56

its departmental spending plans are.

19:58

Well, those words are wrong. and they

20:02

shouldn't have been set. And the government's

20:07

decide spending plans and spending reviews,

20:09

the next spending review will start in

20:12

April 25 and obviously

20:15

until that point when that spending

20:17

review is done we

20:19

don't publish our spending plans, no government

20:21

ever has. But you

20:23

know what I would say is that we

20:26

are absolutely committed to public

20:28

services but that doesn't mean

20:30

that you have to always do things in the future the

20:32

way you've done them in the past. And I think, let

20:35

me put it this way, if you're wanting to have

20:38

a discussion about the credibility, if you look at the

20:40

improvement in productivity in the NHS between

20:43

2010 up until the pandemic, if

20:45

we can get that level of improvement back

20:49

across the whole of the public sector we're

20:51

in a situation where we don't have to keep

20:53

raising taxes. But we'll see it before the election,

20:55

in other words you'll say not just that

20:59

fiction that the head of the Office for Budget

21:01

Responsible as you referred to, yes we'll cut spending,

21:03

can't say quite how, can't flesh

21:06

it out, but you'll give us some

21:08

examples. Yes absolutely and guys

21:11

made this broader point Nick, I think that

21:13

you know we've been through an incredibly difficult

21:15

period with Covid and

21:17

also with the

21:20

global energy crisis caused by an invasion of

21:22

Ukraine and we are now coming

21:24

out of that and in order

21:26

to pay for all the support we gave families,

21:28

yes we had to put taxes, we're starting to

21:30

bring them down particularly on people who are feeling

21:32

the pressure the most that founded

21:35

on the lowest income. Our

21:38

plan is beginning to work and we're beginning

21:40

to see the IMF who you were talking

21:42

about for example say that our economy will

21:44

go faster than France, Germany or Italy in

21:47

the years after 2025. So we need

21:49

to stick with that plan and

21:52

then we have the opportunity to

21:54

both have a rapidly growing economy

21:57

and well-funded public services and

21:59

when I'm making my argument on the budget, a

22:02

contrast that I'll be making, you'd expect me

22:04

to make in a general election year, is

22:07

that as far as I can tell, literally the

22:09

only economic policy coming out of Labour Party is

22:11

to spend 28 billion. Now

22:14

I don't know, from one week to the

22:16

next it changes. Sometimes it's a promise, sometimes

22:18

it's a confident ambition. But the

22:20

only outcome of that desire to spend that

22:22

money, which they definitely have, can

22:24

be higher taxes. And that is an

22:28

investment. An investment is historically

22:30

very low in this country, it's low compared with

22:32

our competitors. But it's gone up,

22:35

hasn't it? Since 2019, capital

22:38

spending by the public sector has gone up

22:40

to record levels. And we are

22:42

seeing the returns from that in terms of the

22:46

growth rate of the economy, we've got a

22:48

great future in front of us, and that's what

22:51

we don't want to put at risk at. You're

22:53

around a table that feels rather like the cabinet

22:55

table, it's quite a lot smaller, but

22:57

the cabinet table is just down the corridor from

22:59

number 11 where we're sitting in

23:01

number 10 there. And you warned

23:04

the cabinet, we're told this week, that

23:06

there was limited room for

23:08

tax cuts. Yes,

23:11

and I think, you know, we don't yet

23:13

know the final numbers, because

23:15

there's this kind of iterative process that happens

23:18

with the Office of Budget Responsibility. But

23:21

it doesn't look to me like we will

23:23

have the same scope for cutting taxes in

23:26

the spring budget that we

23:28

had in the autumn statement. And

23:30

so I need to

23:33

set people's expectations about the scale

23:35

of what I'm doing, because people

23:38

need to know that when a

23:41

conservative government taxes, we

23:43

will do so in a responsible and

23:45

sensible way. But we also want

23:47

to be clear that the direction of

23:49

travel we want to go in is to lighten the

23:51

tax burden. And that is not just about putting

23:54

more money in people's pockets, although I do believe that

23:56

you should put as much money as you can in

23:58

people's pockets. It's a very conservative view. It's because

24:00

in the end that's how we'll grow the

24:02

economy. If we are, we

24:05

know that the right sort of tax cuts help

24:07

boost our growth. You know that

24:09

there will be some Conservatives hearing you who

24:12

will despair at that. They say,

24:14

the Chancellor's got to go big, that's the phrase

24:17

they use. He's got to have the confidence to

24:20

cut taxes, to be a Conservative, to

24:22

do what he's right. And

24:25

they'll think that what you've just said

24:27

means that doom for your

24:29

party and a Labour

24:31

landslide is inevitable. It

24:34

is not Conservative to

24:37

cut taxes by increasing borrowing.

24:39

Because all you're doing is increasing

24:41

the taxes paid by people today

24:44

in exchange for increasing

24:46

the taxes paid by our children

24:48

tomorrow. And that is not Conservative.

24:51

If you want to cut taxes, it has to be

24:53

done in a sustainable way. If I look at the

24:56

tax cutting budget that most people remember,

24:58

the Nigel Lawson's tax cutting budget in

25:00

1988, why was that so

25:02

revolutionary? Because

25:05

when he cut the top rate of tax, when

25:07

he cut the basic rate of tax, you

25:09

knew that was a change that

25:11

was here to stay. That was a

25:14

permanent change. So if you cut

25:17

taxes by taking risks with borrowing,

25:19

people worry that's not a permanent

25:21

change because in the end,

25:24

you might not be able to continue

25:26

at that level of tax. So it's

25:29

a hard path to bring down the tax

25:31

burden. But a Conservative Chancellor wants to do

25:33

that. This one most certainly wants to do

25:35

that. There's another thing that you'll have to

25:37

have told the Cabinet that one

25:39

of the reasons there was a limit to

25:41

what you could spend is what you called

25:43

structural weaknesses in the British

25:46

economy. It's one of the

25:48

biggest weaknesses, brings us back to your old

25:50

job maybe as Health Secretary. We're

25:52

sick as a society. There

25:55

aren't enough of us who are fit enough to

25:57

work. And if you don't have enough workers,

26:00

you can't raise enough tax and you can't spend enough on

26:02

the health service. Well

26:04

Mick, what I actually said to the Cabinet was

26:06

that our

26:08

biggest structural weakness is

26:11

that our productivity is about 15% less than

26:14

countries like Germany and America. Productivity

26:17

is a kind of economist word. Let

26:20

me just explain why it matters. If

26:23

you want to increase our GDP per

26:25

head so that people

26:27

can get higher salaries, you

26:29

can only do that if they

26:31

produce more, putting it very bluntly.

26:35

And economists are in violent

26:37

agreement. There are only a few ways you

26:39

can do that. First of all, you can

26:41

increase educational standards. And we've seen

26:43

Britain under the Conservatives shoot up

26:46

the educational league tables for reading

26:48

and maths, which puts us

26:50

in a very, very good place. Secondly,

26:52

you need to increase investment. You

26:54

need to wrap more machinery around every worker so

26:57

that they can produce more. And

26:59

that's what the main

27:01

tax reduction for business that I announced in

27:04

the autumn statement is all about,

27:06

increasing our business investment by about 20

27:08

billion pounds a year overall. But

27:10

one of the biggest things you can do is take

27:14

the 7 million adults of working

27:16

age who are not in work

27:19

and find a way to get them into work. And

27:21

personally, I think it is immoral

27:24

that as a society we have

27:26

a system at the moment that

27:28

parks people on benefits and

27:31

leaves them there when many of those people would like

27:33

to work and many of

27:35

those people would find more richness

27:37

and value in their life if

27:39

they were offered a route into work. And

27:41

that is why we have a big programme

27:44

of welfare reform. You can tell

27:46

just talking to you've still got the enthusiasm for

27:48

this. And yet you'll know that a lot

27:50

of your colleagues just think it's over. I

27:53

mean, they just look at the polls and they

27:55

look at Rishi Sunan now being as unpopular as

27:57

the Conservative Party used to be, more popular. It's

28:00

over, it's just one of those moments, it's

28:03

like the famous moment Jim Galland drove round

28:05

Trafalgar Square and said, changes

28:08

happened, forecasting that Margaret Thatcher

28:10

may be Prime Minister. There

28:13

are a bit of you having done as many jobs

28:15

as you have, just think, you know, come on, move

28:18

on, you've had fun. No,

28:21

let me tell you why the fight is in me, Nick.

28:23

First of all, just a personal thing. I

28:25

set up my own tech business in 2000. Never

28:30

in a million years did I

28:32

imagine that two decades later, I

28:35

would be responsible for the third

28:37

largest tech economy in the world.

28:40

Why do I say that? Because irrespective

28:43

of the challenges for the Conservatives being behind in

28:45

the polls, which I don't deny as a challenge,

28:47

of course it is, we

28:50

have fantastic prospects as a country.

28:53

And that is because we have tremendous strength

28:55

in industries like technology and life science, the

28:57

industries that are going to grow the fastest.

29:00

And I want to get that

29:02

message across in the budget, because I think

29:04

there's too much negativity about our longer term

29:07

prospects. Do you think we've become gloomsters?

29:11

Andrew Neil wrote a column the other day in the

29:13

mail saying Britain

29:16

has just been taken

29:18

hold of by an unnecessary

29:20

gloom. Cheer up Britain, is that the job?

29:22

Yes, I wish Andrew would take a bit

29:24

of his own medicine though, because he can

29:26

be one of the gloomsters and

29:28

doomsters himself if you read some

29:30

of his columns. But what I would say is

29:33

absolutely, and that's wrong, and for

29:35

the first time this year I did something I never

29:37

thought I would do, is I went to Davos and

29:39

I spent time mixing with billionaires. But

29:41

when you meet people like the

29:44

chief executive of Amazon or the

29:46

boss at Google, all these companies,

29:49

they want to be in Britain. They don't just

29:51

want to be in Britain, they need to be

29:53

in Britain, because we have Elon Musk said London

29:56

and San Francisco are the two global

29:58

centres for AI. So

30:00

we've got those tremendous prospects. Now, why, I

30:02

just want to go back to your question

30:04

about hope for the Conservatives

30:06

at the next election. We

30:09

have that opportunity because

30:11

over the last decade we

30:14

have turned Britain into Europe's

30:16

Silicon Valley. And

30:18

we've done it because we've made this the

30:20

most competitive place in Europe and

30:22

one of the most competitive places in the world

30:24

to grow one of these industries of the future.

30:27

That will not be possible if we ramp

30:29

up taxes. My big worry about Labour's 28

30:31

billion pledge, in whatever form it ends up,

30:33

my big worry about it... ...should be in

30:35

a lob for each time you mention it.

30:37

Thank you, yes. But it is very important

30:39

because, you know, Labour

30:41

in the process at the

30:44

moment are matching our tax cuts. But they don't

30:46

want to do any tax cuts. What they want

30:48

to do is to spend this

30:50

money. And that will mean higher

30:52

taxes, possibly higher business taxes, and that puts

30:54

that future at risk. Why am I

30:56

hungry enough for the fight? It's because I want to make

30:58

the argument that we have got a fantastic future in front

31:00

of us, but we need to stick to the plan. It's

31:03

interesting, though, because when I last interviewed you and

31:05

you'd stopped being Foreign Secretary, you'd

31:08

run for leader of the Conservative Party

31:10

and been beaten, and beaten pretty well

31:12

by Boris Johnson, you

31:15

were starting to relish it. At the time of

31:17

the family, you said, William Hager said to you,

31:20

like going from being in black and white

31:22

to colour, so nice being normal. Do you

31:25

crave a bit of that normality again? I

31:28

do crave it sometimes because it is just

31:30

fantastic doing things with your kids. And

31:33

I miss sometimes not being able to spend as much

31:36

time with them as I would like. But,

31:38

you know, it is an incredible

31:41

thing to have a position

31:43

of responsibility in one of the most amazing countries

31:45

in the world. And I

31:47

just think we've got so much

31:50

potential as a country, and that

31:52

is important for my kids, too,

31:54

because, you know, I

31:56

want them to grow up in a country

31:58

bursting with opportunity. And if I can

32:00

just do a little bit to

32:02

help make their futures brighter and the future of

32:05

all their friends brighter, then

32:07

I'd be very proud. You

32:09

mentioned the family a lot and it's been

32:11

a difficult year personally for you, your brother.

32:14

Charlie, your younger brother, died of a rare form

32:17

of cancerous sarcoma. There was a fundraiser here,

32:19

wasn't there, that he helped to organise Hearer

32:21

No. 11 because he

32:23

was passionate about getting more money and

32:26

more care. That

32:28

too, I imagine, doesn't anybody who's

32:30

been ill or knows someone who's been ill that's

32:32

learned someone who's died, make you think about

32:34

what you're doing with your time, did it?

32:36

Did I have that info on you? It

32:40

knocked me back. I

32:43

still think about him every day actually because

32:46

he was just so brave. He

32:49

had this very rare cancer for

32:52

over three years and

32:55

he decided that he was just

32:57

going to live every single day

32:59

as if it was his last.

33:02

He threw parties and he went

33:04

travelling and he went kitesurfing and

33:08

he never allowed it to bring him

33:10

down. That

33:13

courage was pretty humbling and you have lots of

33:15

down days in politics and you think, bloody hell,

33:17

what did he go through? And he always had

33:19

a smile on his face. So

33:23

I can't pretend that doesn't affect you, yes. Of

33:25

course. And then finally, you've had

33:28

the old party, you occasionally have dinners here.

33:30

I'm going to give you your dream dinner

33:32

party. Here we are. Who

33:34

would you have round this table? If

33:37

you could have anybody, we'll allow you to

33:39

have people on to live as well. Your

33:41

brother may be, but other

33:44

people in history. Well, look, I don't want

33:46

to be more kissed about this, but I

33:48

would love, I would really

33:50

love to have my mum and dad

33:53

because they weren't alive to

33:55

see me become Jonfa and I think

33:57

they'd have been so proud. that's

34:00

just a personal thing but you know

34:03

as counter-sanctuary I had a lot of kind of contact

34:06

with glamorous people in Hollywood

34:08

and I

34:11

slightly concluded their lives are a bit

34:13

more empty than people

34:15

perhaps think and also I

34:17

found myself wondering what I'd love to talk to them about. So

34:19

who would I really love? To

34:23

rule out George Clooney. I'll

34:26

invite George and Amal if they wouldn't

34:28

have come. I mean most welcome to come for

34:30

dinner but I think the people

34:32

I'm really inspired by

34:35

the people have actually changed things. I would

34:37

love to meet William Wilberforce because

34:40

that guy was never

34:43

in the cabinet he was never a minister and

34:46

he persuaded MPs after 19 years of

34:48

campaigning to abolish

34:51

the slave trade and

34:53

you know we

34:55

are just minnows compared to a giant like that

34:58

and I would just love to know what makes

35:00

people like that. Well

35:02

Jeremy Hunt Chancellor thank you for talking to us

35:04

here in the dining room at number 11 and

35:07

I think you have to go to talk to

35:09

Tory MPs. I do and I

35:11

will remain upbeat. What trips that will

35:14

be. Thank you Nick. Well

35:17

it certainly sounds like Jeremy Hunt he's

35:19

up for the fight again not planning

35:22

what many people expected a little while ago

35:24

for his retirement he

35:26

thinks there's a battle about economic

35:29

policy to be had. He's got

35:31

some strong words for

35:33

advisers from outside which

35:36

in effect is to say zip it.

35:39

We're the ones fighting the election not

35:42

you. Thanks for listening to Political

35:44

Thinking the producer is Dan Kramer and

35:47

the editor is Jonathan Brunette. This

35:49

is the third time I've interviewed Jeremy

35:51

Hunt on Political Thinking you can hear

35:53

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35:56

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