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0:49

Hello and welcome to political thinking. I've.

0:52

Just been talking to a man. It seems as if.

0:54

Almost. Every other politician. Wants

0:56

to talk about to spot the

0:58

front. Not a party leader, not

1:01

even a member of parliament. Or

1:03

a candidate for the next election. He.

1:06

Is. Nigel Farage. Few.

1:09

Listen to our conversation, You'll.

1:11

See why people talk about whom? It

1:13

is clear that he dreams of the

1:16

sort of takeover of the right of

1:18

British politics. But. Donald Trump.

1:21

Has. Engineered in the United States.

1:24

Will. It be with him. As. Leader

1:26

of reform. Or. As

1:28

some people predict, Maybe. One

1:30

day leader. Of. The Conservative

1:33

Party. Nigel.

1:35

Farage, Welcome back to political thinking. I gave

1:37

you about what you like big on you

1:39

the center of attention. Well I've always been

1:41

a bit of a show of a bigger

1:44

some truth in that up your is a

1:46

funny thing. But. I

1:49

think current affairs, politics, and current

1:52

Affairs in the Uk today has

1:54

such a dearth of personalities that

1:56

I find most of the center

1:58

of debates. Whether I'm. trying to

2:00

or not, I sort of get dragged

2:02

into things. As did you? What you

2:04

think it is in part? Because

2:07

there's just a lot of grey men and women there.

2:09

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm quite prepared to stand

2:11

up and say things. I say things at

2:13

times that you could see as being populist, you

2:15

know, that I'm saying what a lot of people

2:17

are saying and thinking. Equally, I say

2:20

things that are way ahead of the

2:22

pack and not popular. So I

2:24

would like to think, I generally am, what

2:26

they used to call good copy. Some

2:29

people listening to the radio or

2:31

watching the telly now who

2:33

were saying, why on earth are

2:36

they talking to Nigel Farage? He's

2:38

not a party leader. He's not been too

2:40

elected to anything for a very, very

2:42

long time. Well, that's not quite true. Who cares what

2:44

he thinks? Well, that's not quite true, actually, is it?

2:46

Because in May of 2019, you know, I led a

2:50

party that was been alive for just less than

2:52

six weeks, won an

2:54

election, a European election. So dramatic that it

2:56

forced the prime minister to resign immediately. So

2:58

it's not that long ago that I was

3:01

involved. But look, you know, conventionally,

3:03

we think you have to be in the House

3:05

of Commons to change public opinion in Britain. That

3:07

just is no longer the case. You

3:10

know, through social media, through many other

3:12

things, there are ways that

3:14

people can, people of influence can change

3:16

the thinking of a country.

3:18

Is that how you see yourself now? Not

3:20

a politician as such? Oh, I hear. You

3:22

know, I'm a fluent commentator. What do you

3:24

call yourself? When I appeared on I'm

3:27

a celebrity, get me out of here last

3:29

November. You know, I was

3:31

labeled ex-politician and GB news presenter. And that's

3:33

exactly where I see myself right now. I'm

3:36

an ex-politician. I'm still how

3:38

much longer we will see. I'm excessively interested

3:41

in current affairs in the direction

3:43

of travel of the country. I

3:45

haven't for a moment ruled out at some point

3:47

in the future doing politics again. But for now,

3:49

that's what I am. For the moment, there you

3:51

are, commentating,

3:54

watching. And some people think

3:56

you haven't got the guts to go on the pitch.

3:58

That's where it's difficult. I could level

4:01

that charge at you. I'm perfectly fair.

4:03

I've never claimed that I want to

4:05

change Britain and you do. I've not

4:07

argued for anything. I just ask all

4:09

the questions. When you say commentating, let

4:12

me tell you something. There's nobody else in

4:14

British Part 6 or Active

4:16

Current Affairs as active on TikTok as I

4:18

am. I'm not using

4:20

TikTok to comment. I'm using

4:22

TikTok to reach young people and say, have you thought

4:25

of it like this? Have

4:27

you ever considered that maybe the approach

4:29

you're being taught at school isn't right? There's a different

4:31

point of view. Which is one of the reasons you

4:33

went into the jungle. Very much

4:35

so. I went into the jungle, well there

4:37

were three reasons really. I mean one was

4:39

to reach a young audience who when the referendum happened

4:42

were 12 or 13, he wouldn't

4:44

know who I was particularly. Second

4:47

was with the older voters, those

4:50

that don't like me because they've read things

4:52

in the newspapers about me. Well tell you

4:54

what, over 24 days you're going

4:56

to see exactly who I am and maybe I

4:58

could deal with some of the negativity and three

5:00

the paycheck was good. So the reasons for going...

5:02

What do you got to three? Because I was

5:04

about to add... The reasons were made. It seems

5:06

to me in a sense, I mean it's not

5:08

labelling like, but it's appropriate for

5:10

a guy who has a TV news

5:12

programme and he's on TikTok a lot.

5:14

Influencer, let's use that. Yes. Now,

5:17

one of the things that interests me is last

5:19

time I spoke to you about four

5:21

years ago was actually the day it

5:23

finally happened. This thing that you'd spent your

5:25

entire adult life preparing for, Brexit. We

5:28

actually got out. And

5:30

you said honestly, as somebody who likes to

5:32

climb the old hill in the Lake District, sometimes you get

5:34

to the top of the mountain, it's not quite the beautiful

5:36

view that you thought it would be. But

5:39

since then, you've actually said Brexit failed.

5:42

I said Brexit has... What I

5:44

said was, the public perception is that Brexit's

5:46

failed in the eyes of many, many

5:49

voters, and particularly the Red Wall voters. That's

5:51

what the comment was about. And

5:53

the reason for that is very simple. There were

5:55

a group of voters, two, two and a half

5:57

million voters, who moved from

6:00

Labour families. These are families that have been

6:02

Labour since 1918. Generation after generation,

6:06

they came to UKIP, they

6:08

came to the Brexit party, they

6:10

went in very big numbers to

6:12

Boris Johnson in 2019. And

6:14

for them, it was all about communities.

6:17

It was all about wage

6:19

rates. It was all about the impact

6:22

immigration was having on their lives. No

6:24

one in London notices. I

6:26

mean, people in London are too well off. People

6:28

that work in politics and media generally

6:30

do not see the negative impact that

6:32

a rapidly rising population has really been

6:35

put upon ordinary families. And for

6:38

them, Brexit, Boris

6:41

was all about getting a grip on this. And

6:43

all of that has been a failure. A

6:46

total failure. A total failure in

6:48

the most astonishing way. Those people who were shouting

6:51

at the radio now shouting, we could have

6:53

told it that. We knew Brexit was

6:55

bad. No, no, no, no. Hang on a second.

6:57

Hang on a second. Brexit's works in this way

7:00

are standing on the world stage is much bigger

7:02

than it was before. And you can see the

7:04

Orca's deal perhaps being as a very, very good

7:06

example where we get together with

7:08

Australia and America and there'll be loads

7:10

of submarines built in Barrow in Furness.

7:13

Ukraine, I mean, whether you agree or disagree,

7:15

Boris Johnson played a leading role in Ukraine.

7:17

As EU members, he wouldn't have done that.

7:19

So I think in that regard, it's

7:22

worked. I think constitutionally it's worked in

7:24

that the Labour Party are not now

7:26

talking at all about second

7:28

referendums or rejoining. And

7:31

you know, when you get a constitutional change,

7:33

these things don't happen very often. The

7:36

failure is of the

7:38

Conservative government to deliver on

7:40

the realistic expectations. I want to talk to

7:42

you about why you're not very optimistic anymore.

7:44

You said to me four years ago, I'm

7:46

feeling bullish and optimistic about the future. I

7:49

want this historical moment to lead to a

7:51

new British renaissance. You said I believe it

7:53

can. I thought you would danger,

7:55

by the way, of sounding and

7:57

not just you, by the way, but lots of people.

8:00

of Brexiteers now. You

8:02

sound like Morrissey from the Smiths. I

8:04

mean heaven knows you're miserable now. You

8:07

can't stop telling us how miserable everything is. The

8:09

country's going to a dog. It's all... I mean

8:11

the one thing I could never be accused of

8:13

is being miserable. You know, I've never been miserable.

8:15

I could be pessimistic on issues. Yes. Concerned

8:18

about issues. I'm not a pessimist by nature.

8:20

Far from it. I'm a ludicrous

8:22

optimist. I mean who would have spent all those

8:24

years in UK but yes, you know, unless I

8:26

had been. Are you quite

8:28

miserable? I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed

8:32

by... Remember, I didn't just get rid

8:34

of Mrs May. I also, you

8:37

know, stood aside, gave

8:39

a signal to people, it's okay to vote for Boris

8:41

Johnson's Conservatives. I did a lot in 2019 to

8:44

get this thing over the line. Yeah,

8:46

you did that deal basically, didn't you? He promised

8:48

you that he would

8:50

have a Brexit closer to the one you wanted and

8:52

you said I won't run candidates. That's right. That's absolutely

8:55

right. And when I spoke to you last,

8:57

yes, I was feeling optimistic. I'm

8:59

now appalled, angry

9:02

at the fact that

9:04

the Conservatives made these promises to me

9:07

and the country but never really meant it.

9:09

Well, let's talk about some of those things that

9:12

make you angry. Is

9:15

Liz Truss right? You sat

9:17

with her. You interviewed her at

9:19

something called CPAC, the Conservative Political Action

9:21

Committee in Washington, D.C. And she said

9:24

a deep state is running Britain. Okay.

9:26

I'll tell you why she

9:28

said that. The day before there'd been an international

9:30

panel and CPAC, which started off

9:32

as this 40 years ago with

9:34

Reagan, started off as being a very

9:36

American, Conservative conference

9:38

every year, not directly linked to the

9:40

Republican Party, but very close, is

9:43

now an international event. I was the first

9:45

foreign speaker. I turned up there about 12

9:47

years ago. I was the only foreigner in the room. Now

9:50

we have the new president of Argentina,

9:52

the president of El Salvador representatives from

9:54

all over Europe, South America. And

9:57

we were on an international panel. I sat next to her. And

10:00

she said that one of the biggest

10:03

problems that she had was the

10:05

clangocracy Well, of course, nobody in America understood

10:07

that she said that's your equivalent of the

10:09

deep state Hence the use of that terminology

10:12

was she right in what she said?

10:14

Do you know I honestly believe that

10:16

the role of the Bank of

10:18

England throughout all of this Needs

10:20

to be deeply question all of this meaning

10:23

meaning her collapse. You're very much so

10:25

I mean to think to

10:27

think that the Bank of England Sold

10:29

gilts on the open market on the

10:31

eve of that budget It

10:34

really was an astonishing political intervention to people

10:36

who not unlike you. You're a former commodity

10:40

I know I know what do you think they would do you

10:42

think was a political act? The Bank

10:44

of England, the then Prime Minister who

10:46

wanted to cut taxes. Absolutely. I've known

10:49

about it I've known about it. And

10:51

what was interesting about it was

10:53

that the commitment the energy commitment

10:56

Was massively bigger in terms

10:58

of financial risk for the country than

11:00

the cut in taxation It's the bail out list. Trust

11:03

was promising to house. All right, because of the high

11:05

bills. Yeah Yeah, and so we have the

11:07

Bank of England doing this we have the International Monetary Fund in

11:09

Washington Saying but that they shouldn't be

11:11

cutting the UK shouldn't be cutting taxes. So she

11:13

has a point I want

11:15

to just quickly go through the list because

11:17

then we really want to talk about what

11:20

you think but see with you agree with

11:22

People she says the civil surface is dominated

11:24

by trans activists and environmental extremists I

11:27

haven't been there but certainly the reports I

11:29

see from internal meetings within

11:31

the civil service the Obsession

11:34

with this DEI agenda diversity

11:36

and inclusion agenda Runs

11:39

not just through the civil service. It's running

11:41

through corporate Britain to when I've been involved

11:43

in an epic battle Again,

11:46

the Britain's biggest bank now, you

11:48

know, I was debanked by NatWest after 43

11:50

years Because my

11:52

views did not align with theirs So

11:54

the pointless trust is talking about is

11:56

running pretty deep and Sue Alabramman. She

11:59

said The Islamist,

12:01

the extremist, the anti-seamers are

12:03

in charge now. Well,

12:06

in charge is a rather strong way of putting

12:08

it, but I do think that the scenes we

12:10

saw in Parliament Square last week

12:12

were astonishing. I

12:14

think the levels of intimidation against MPs,

12:16

not just in Westminster, but now back

12:18

in their constituencies, is

12:20

deeply, deeply concerning. Our culture,

12:23

our culture is, you know,

12:25

you and I can disagree, vehemently,

12:28

if you like, but we settle it, not

12:30

outside in a fight, we settle it in an

12:32

election. And provided we have

12:34

free and fair elections, we accept the result. And

12:37

there's just been a feeling over the last few weeks

12:39

that there's now a lobby in this country. And

12:42

yes, not all, by the way, we

12:44

say Islamists, the agenda might be about Palestine.

12:46

There are plenty of middle class white people

12:49

taking part in those marches as well. So this

12:51

is not purely a race issue. It

12:54

really isn't. It's actually the idea

12:56

that we can get what we want by not

12:58

bothering with the ballot box, but by intimidating those

13:00

that are there already. So the Prime Minister is

13:02

right to talk of a mob, is he? About

13:05

time. Yeah, he gets there at the end,

13:07

Rishi, doesn't he? He gets there at the end, he licks his

13:09

finger and he puts it up and sees where the wind's going.

13:12

But isn't it deeply insulting to tens of

13:14

thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of

13:16

ordinary people who are moved by the

13:18

plight of Palestinians

13:21

who are losing their lives, losing their limbs,

13:23

losing their homes, and

13:25

aren't political at all? They just want to

13:28

say, stop this war,

13:30

to call them a mob. I think when you

13:32

look at the people that are running these organisations

13:35

and running these demonstrations and some of

13:37

their links to highly questionable

13:39

groups, groups that are on

13:42

the edge, frankly, of being terrorists, where

13:44

they come from originally, whether it's in

13:46

Iran or whether it's back in Gaza,

13:49

that's where the worry is. That's

13:51

where the worry is. Right to that issue, a great election.

13:54

But we've gone through a series of things where it seems

13:57

to me you agree with Liz Tross and

13:59

S You've got your own

14:01

reasons for feeling a bit depressed about how Brexit

14:03

was delivered. But

14:05

yet, the other day, you said something

14:07

fascinating. Something very sexy is going on

14:09

in British politics, Ed Nigel. How

14:12

could it be miserable and talking about this sexy

14:14

thing is going on? I said, I'm never miserable.

14:17

I might be upset about things. I

14:19

might wish Brexit to be done better, but

14:22

I'm never miserable. What's sexy then? I

14:24

was commenting on the by-election

14:26

results and the rise of reform. I

14:29

tell you why it's sexy and why it's interesting.

14:33

The rise of UKIP was a very

14:35

hard one and took quite

14:37

a long time. It

14:40

took a very long time. And

14:42

when UKIP got to levels in the polls like

14:45

this, I couldn't believe it. We've

14:48

been battling away for years. We've been building structure. We've

14:50

been raising money. Reform

14:54

has done this in a very, very, very short space of time. Without

14:57

much money, without much publicity

14:59

and without having a

15:01

party machine. And without having

15:03

a big, recognisable face, you. I

15:06

mean, it's your company, it's a company. You own it or

15:08

co-own it. Well, it was said that. It's just waiting for

15:10

you to become the leader. It was set up very efficiently.

15:12

I would agree with that. And

15:15

that's the point I'm making. And I think the

15:18

gap between London

15:22

and, by that, I mean the conversations that happen

15:24

here and the country is

15:27

way bigger than it was in the lead up

15:29

to the referendum of 2016. The

15:31

gap is enormous and I think

15:34

Reform have a chance of filling it. Now,

15:37

you, in a way, have always specialised in

15:39

being arguably the most successful

15:41

pressure group leader in Britain. UKIP

15:44

pressured David Cameron into promising a

15:46

referendum and having that referendum. The

15:48

Brexit party had to harden up Brexit, driving

15:51

May out of office, or helping to. And

15:54

persuading Boris Johnson to harden it up. Is

15:57

Reform, in your mind, led by... by

16:00

you one day maybe? A

16:02

pressure group? No, and that's the interesting

16:04

thing. That's the really interesting

16:06

thing, that the point about

16:08

UKIP and the Brexit Party, you

16:11

can call it single issue, but it was a

16:13

very important constitutional fundamental issue. And

16:16

whilst we did have opinions and views, you

16:18

know, on onshore wind farms and other things

16:20

that enabled UKIP to win hundreds

16:23

of council seats across the country, etc. Ultimately,

16:26

it was about the restoration of sovereignty.

16:30

The difference with reform

16:33

is the reform message isn't around any

16:35

one thing. The reform

16:37

message is around that politics has failed us.

16:40

We have this coalition in

16:42

the Labour Party, this coalition in the

16:45

Conservative Party, but that means that nobody

16:47

really stands for anything in

16:49

particular. The differences between the

16:51

parties are very, very small. A

16:54

feeling that, that feeling I

16:56

mentioned a moment ago about the gap between Westminster

16:58

and the country, that somehow this

17:00

electoral system, this House of

17:02

Lords, the way we run things,

17:05

just isn't working. And

17:07

I think so reform is about something much more

17:10

fundamental. It's about a completely different way of doing

17:12

things. You're just back

17:14

from the United States, nine days there, meeting

17:16

a man you always described as your friend

17:18

Donald Trump. Yeah. You

17:20

met another friend, Steve Bannon,

17:23

who was Donald Trump's chief strategist.

17:25

He's described himself as a right

17:27

wing populist now. And he's described

17:29

you as a future prime minister.

17:31

Well, Steve has all sorts of

17:33

opinions and said we might agree

17:35

with him, we might not. But

17:38

he, forgive me, he offers you a model, doesn't he?

17:41

Which is the so-called

17:43

MAGM movement, Make America Great movement,

17:45

those red baseball caps we see

17:47

on all Trump supporters, before that

17:49

what was called the Tea Party.

17:53

What they did is they effectively

17:55

took over the big party. Yes, they

17:57

were separate. Yes. Is that the model

18:00

you all now pursuing? Well that's a

18:02

very interesting question because

18:05

of course if we had open primaries in

18:08

this country then

18:10

I mean I tell you what if

18:13

there was an open primary right now a

18:16

rerun of the conservative leadership and it was myself

18:18

again soon I think I'd win I

18:21

genuinely think I'd win amongst conservative

18:23

members and registered conservative supporters if

18:25

we had the American system I

18:27

would win now that may

18:29

sound arrogant but it's not it's just it's a

18:31

reflection of how disenchanted

18:34

conservatives in the country are with the Westminster

18:37

party and that's how Bannon and Trump did

18:39

it they did it I mean don't forget

18:41

until 2015 Trump was you know a

18:44

hero in New York he

18:47

was running The Apprentice over there which

18:49

was the most gigantic TV show he

18:51

was an all-American hero and so

18:53

he went down those steps and said I'm running for president he's

18:56

only there he took over

18:59

and Bannon to a certain extent they took over

19:01

the Republican Party because the system let them now

19:04

how would the system let you take over

19:06

well it's much harder

19:08

here we don't have open

19:10

primaries we're being very hypothetical here by the

19:12

way this is

19:14

what I think reform

19:18

with or without me and by the way Richard Tice

19:20

is doing very well with it very well indeed reform

19:24

is going to get a lot of votes in this next

19:26

election I don't know how many minimum

19:28

four million five five and a

19:30

half million it's going to get a lot of a lot

19:32

of votes it'll win a few seats

19:35

it won't win very many because

19:37

unless you break through a big threshold you can't

19:39

do it but it comes a point

19:42

there comes a point when a significant

19:45

chunk of the conservative party realize

19:48

there are no more deals to be done there's no

19:50

more mr. nice guy coming from our side of

19:53

it we did all that they've let us down

19:55

we want to reach we want to reshape British

19:57

politics and I just don't see long term how

20:00

people like myself and Richard Tice don't

20:03

finish up in the same political party, you

20:06

know, as a Jacob Rees-Mogg, or a Sweller

20:08

Braverman. What is this trust? And

20:10

is, of course. There

20:12

is going to be, this

20:14

has been talked about by the way for decades,

20:16

but there is going to be a realignment of

20:18

the centre right of British policy. Well then that

20:20

then comes to you. And

20:23

you rather enjoy the dance of the seven political veils, which

20:26

is why I'm not going to ask you a lot about

20:28

it, because if you want to tell me what you're going

20:30

to do, you will. And if you

20:32

don't, you won't. I can have all sorts of things. If you want

20:34

to ask, we'll have loads of fun. But it won't get you anywhere.

20:37

But why not? If this

20:39

sexy moment is here, if

20:42

there really is a chance to break

20:44

the mould of British politics, has last happened

20:46

arguably when you and I were young men

20:48

and the SDP was created? Well

20:51

yes, but. Why not get on and

20:53

do it Nigel Farage? Get on, get

20:55

into politics, stop messing about being a

20:57

commentator. Get in and

20:59

do it. I've got a long track record of getting stuck in.

21:02

Everything's about timing. I

21:05

remember as Brexit was

21:07

going wrong, siren

21:09

voices, particularly in 2018 after the so called

21:13

checkers deal, everyone

21:15

said Nigel, if you don't get back

21:17

involved right now in politics, you're

21:19

letting the side down. And what did I

21:21

do? I waited and

21:23

I waited and I waited and

21:25

I waited for the end of

21:27

March. To come and go, the moment at

21:29

which we were supposed to leave, in which I knew what I knew

21:32

we weren't going to leave. And I waited

21:34

until mid April and launched something that took

21:36

off like a rocket. Timing is

21:38

everything. You are waiting now before coming

21:41

back onto the political stage. If I decide I want to

21:43

do so and I'll come to that reasoning in a moment.

21:46

But timing is everything. And Roy Jenkins,

21:48

I mean look, a hugely

21:50

significant figure. You know, massive

21:52

social reforms. Crucially the founder

21:55

of the Social Democratic Party way back. What,

21:57

1981, too? Yeah,

21:59

and his profile was... enormous, absolutely

22:01

enormous. And let's just remind ourselves

22:03

what happened. The SDP in

22:05

the 83 election got 25.4% of the

22:07

vote and 23 seats. Labour got 27.6% of the vote and

22:16

209 seats. Jenkins didn't

22:18

break the mould. Now,

22:22

you know, was he too early? Is

22:25

the system unbreakable? I don't know the answer to

22:27

that. But at some point, there

22:29

comes a moment when it's right to do. But

22:31

Nick, I have to decide something as well. You

22:34

know, I lived, I mean,

22:36

MPs now are getting a taste

22:39

of the way that I had to live

22:41

for many, many years, to

22:43

have to live with close protection, to have

22:46

to live at times of 24 hour close

22:48

protection. And you know, you know this very

22:50

well. That was my life for a very,

22:52

very long time, for daring to take on

22:54

the establishment. And right

22:57

now, I'm going to be 60 in a couple of weeks.

23:00

And I have got a job that I love.

23:04

I've got income that I haven't

23:06

had for 30 years. Things

23:08

of a city were going well. I've

23:11

generally got a bit more free time. So

23:14

why would you give it up? So I can go, I

23:16

can go, I'm going to go to Cheltenham for the races

23:18

and the things that I love doing, you know,

23:21

and you know, you're wondering

23:23

whether it's worth giving it up. Well, yeah, I

23:25

mean, yeah, if I do this again, that's the

23:28

end of my working life. It's a big decision.

23:31

It's a decision shaped also, isn't it,

23:33

by what you see and know in

23:35

America. There are

23:37

people who never run for Congress, never

23:40

run for state office, who

23:42

are much more powerful politically, absolutely, who do the

23:44

sort of your job you do. Do you want

23:47

to be the Tucker Carlson? Well, Sean Hallard is

23:49

the best example in America. Tucker

23:51

better known these days, but Hannah's has been

23:53

at Fox pretty much since the start. So

23:55

these are Fox News presented, massively influential Fox

23:57

News presenter, but also there's a daily radio

23:59

show. with 14 million listeners. He

24:02

was behind Rush Limbaugh in the sort

24:05

of all-time radio show host. And

24:07

you asked a little bit more than the Today program,

24:09

but only a little bit, am I right? Well, yes,

24:11

but still, between the two, you're quite right.

24:14

The Today program still gets a very big number.

24:17

But no, you ask yourself,

24:20

would he or Carlson have

24:22

been more influential as senators or

24:25

more influential where they are? And

24:27

I certainly, and particularly since I'm a

24:29

celebrity, the

24:32

response I get from young people just, just

24:34

to stop at the petrol station. There are kids buying sweets, go,

24:37

wow, can we have a picture? And

24:39

so, yes, shaping the way.

24:41

Remember this, remember this, and this is a

24:43

really important point that really I

24:45

think explains a lot, explains Boris Johnson

24:48

particularly. There are, I was

24:50

told by the late great Christopher Booker, you

24:52

know, of Private Eye and Sunday Telegraph and all

24:54

these author and all these things. Booker

24:56

said to me back in the 90s, there are

24:58

two types of people in politics, those

25:01

who want to be something and

25:03

those who want to do something. So

25:05

for many, it's about rank, title,

25:08

social position. Well, power though. I

25:10

mean, doing something means having power.

25:13

Yes, well, depending where you are. Yeah.

25:16

But there are others who do it because they're driven

25:18

because they want change. And yes, I do feel, and

25:21

that's all, I still feel I have an influential voice.

25:23

Well, let's talk about what sort of change you want

25:25

to bring about. I said that Steve

25:27

Bannon, Donald

25:30

Trump's former strategist, friend of

25:32

yours described himself as a

25:34

populist nationalist. Would

25:36

you use that term to describe yourself? I

25:38

think nationalist is a very difficult word. I mean, I've

25:40

always called myself a nationalist. I'm

25:42

a nationalist. I believe in the nation state. I think that

25:45

it is the unit. What are you nervous

25:47

about when nationalist then? I think

25:50

nationalism is

25:52

a bit like alcohol really, you know, a little bit of it in

25:54

your life is rather good and too

25:56

much is ruinous. It's interesting because this week as you

25:58

know, the Leader of

26:00

Opposition decided to talk about you at

26:03

Prime Minister's questions. And

26:05

he said, you agreed

26:07

with the basic premise of Enot Powell's risk

26:09

of blood speech. Now those young people you

26:11

talk to on TikTok won't know the speech

26:14

and they won't know Enot Powell. No, I

26:16

mean, frankly, to drag up a figure

26:18

from 50 years ago was a very odd thing to do.

26:20

Well, he's a symbol, isn't

26:22

he? Enot Powell is a symbol

26:24

for many people of someone who

26:26

exploited the issue of race and

26:28

immigration. For many, I said, you'll

26:30

disagree. Oh, no, actually, I think he... Let me

26:33

just remind listeners, kind of who he was, and

26:35

the speech, the famous River of Blood speech, infamous

26:38

speech, was a

26:41

speech that used a classical

26:43

quote to talk about rivers foaming

26:45

with blood, a prediction

26:48

of communal violence. But

26:50

also another crucial phrase, the black man

26:52

will have a whip hand over the

26:54

white man. He was quoting someone, but

26:57

that's what he said. So let's

26:59

just get the facts straight. Are you? Last time

27:01

we talked, you said you had quite a lot of admiration

27:03

for Enot Powell. Do you agree with him and the River

27:05

of Blood speech? I think the speech was the biggest mistake

27:07

of his career. I think this was a

27:09

very distinguished man. Let's

27:12

just remember he'd been the youngest brigadier of World

27:14

War II, the youngest professor in the British Empire.

27:16

This was a very distinguished man who

27:19

was in a hurry. He

27:21

made a speech to shock. He was

27:23

in a hurry, and the speech itself was a

27:25

mistake. But the basic premise that he

27:27

was to take out the flowery language

27:29

and quotes from other people, the basic

27:32

premise was that if

27:34

you have immigration on a scale without

27:36

integration, he said

27:38

himself, people will not recognize areas to be

27:40

their own. So he was

27:43

warning about the pace and rate of

27:45

immigration, integration and change. And

27:47

when you think about today, when

27:50

to millions of traditional labor voters,

27:52

and Starmer must know this, you know, actually,

27:56

they look at parts of their cities and say, what the hell's happened

27:58

here? This isn't England. anymore. So

28:02

the basic premise, taking

28:04

everything out, the basic premise that

28:07

if you finish up with divided communities,

28:09

different cultures, little in common historically or

28:11

culturally, that it's a recipe for problems,

28:14

that basic premise is cracked. Well I'd

28:16

argue there were two premises. Let's

28:19

come back to unrecognizable. The other

28:21

was a prediction of communal violence.

28:23

Yeah. That's why the rivers of

28:25

blood, the foaming of much blood,

28:28

was used. Was

28:30

that right? We've seen up in

28:32

Birmingham, you know, mobs in the streets fighting Hindu

28:34

against Muslim. We've seen so many examples of this.

28:36

I've seen Manchas United fans fighting with Liverpool. Oh

28:38

no fair point. No fair point. That doesn't tell

28:41

me anything about anything. It's a perfectly reasonable point.

28:43

But when you see the mob, you know,

28:45

outside the Palace at Westminster last week, MP

28:48

so scared that Harriet Harmon, a very

28:50

senior Labour figure, has even suggested maybe

28:53

we stay at home and vote on our computers. So

28:56

look, there is a ... but what's

28:58

that got to do with mass migration?

29:00

Those are people who are angry about

29:02

Gaza and some of them you would

29:04

argue go madly over the top. The

29:06

leaders of these demonstrations are people who

29:09

have a different sense of priorities and come

29:11

from a very different culture to what would

29:13

traditionally be seen to be British. Because they're

29:16

immigrants? Because there are plenty of

29:18

people who of whom that might be true. Because in many

29:20

cases, in many

29:22

cases, I mean your classic

29:24

idea, I mean take America, a country built on

29:26

immigration. Now look, forgive me, let's just finish off

29:28

with the thought you had because you said that

29:31

those people have different ... and I'm challenging

29:33

that and saying what, really? Because of immigration? Of

29:36

course, because of immigration. No question. If you come to

29:38

this country and you say

29:40

right, you know what? We are going

29:43

to absolutely integrate. Our kids are going

29:45

to play football in the local recreation

29:47

ground with everybody else. We're going to

29:49

become part of this community. And

29:52

arguably, that had worked

29:54

incredibly well. Probably better than

29:56

any other European country in terms of levels

29:59

of integration. what we're seeing

30:01

with these particular process movements are

30:03

leaders of these movements. They want

30:05

to change British society and there

30:07

are too many preachers who want

30:09

to change British society. The idea

30:11

that elements of Sharia law, as

30:14

one very good example, should be incorporated

30:17

into British law. There are plenty of people who

30:19

were British in inverted

30:21

commas for generations. They put it that

30:24

way. Who wanted to change

30:26

Britain. They wanted to change Britain.

30:28

They also mostly wanted to change

30:30

Britain. You don't need to be an immigrant

30:32

to want to change Britain. I think to

30:34

want to fundamentally change the

30:39

civilizational level that we've got to, whether we're right

30:41

or wrong is irrelevant by the way, but

30:43

to have a totally different view on

30:47

who our friends and allies should be in the world.

30:49

To have a totally different view, particularly

30:52

of 20th century British history.

30:54

For example, the Balfour Declaration,

30:57

where we were the first country to stand up

30:59

and say, look, the Jewish people deserve a homeland.

31:02

What, 1919? It

31:05

was actually used as a very powerful instrument

31:07

to have America join the war. We

31:11

look back at 20th century

31:13

history, there are things we

31:15

regret, but we share together

31:18

as families through our histories

31:20

those experiences. When you get

31:22

people who come in to Britain, we've never seen this

31:25

before, by the way. I

31:27

can't think of an example through history

31:29

where any particular migrant group has wanted

31:31

to change the country. They wanted to

31:34

become part of it. Behind

31:36

these demonstrations is a desire to change

31:38

this country. Behind these demonstrations is a

31:40

real anger about what's happening in Gaza.

31:43

Yes, some hostility to Israel from some,

31:46

and quite a lot of people you would, I

31:48

suspect, describe as the far left. It's quite a

31:50

small group of these people. So why focus on

31:52

immigrants? I've

31:54

said already in this conversation, there are plenty

31:57

of middle class white girls called Jocasta, who

31:59

take part in this. these demonstrations too.

32:01

There's been a great debate this

32:03

week about the word Islamophobic. When

32:06

I spoke to Peter Tatchell,

32:09

veteran campaigner, pro-Palestinian marcher, he

32:12

somewhat to my surprise on the Today podcast

32:14

said, I don't like that

32:17

word because actually there are reasons to

32:19

be fearful of Islam. He said if

32:22

you're a gay man or woman or

32:24

if you're any sort of woman, you're

32:29

nodding. I mean, would it be

32:31

rational in your mind to be Islamophobic? I

32:34

have a huge regard for Tatchell. I think he's

32:36

one of the great campaigners over decades. I

32:39

may not agree with all of his campaigns, but

32:41

Peter always is sensible,

32:44

grown-up, and Peter's campaigns

32:46

have always operated within the framework

32:48

of a democratic country. What about

32:50

the question? On

32:53

the question, well look, I mean, I think

32:56

this is really difficult. The

32:59

Equality Act of 2010, the

33:02

putting in place of hate speech laws just

33:05

leave you with a perpetual muddle because

33:07

they're all subjective judgments. And

33:09

the way the law was written was when it's hate

33:11

speech, if the person or group you

33:14

say something about believes they have been

33:16

harmed by it. So we're in

33:18

a mess. I'm trying to get deep down. Does

33:21

Nigel Farris think he's rational because you've said

33:23

immigrants are coming in, they're going to change

33:25

the nature of Britain. Is it rational to

33:27

have a phobia about Islam? I think

33:29

it was irrational. That is the way that that is.

33:33

No, you're changing the nature of that. No, I'm going to come back.

33:35

I'm going to come back. I'm going

33:37

to come back. I'm proud of it. No, no, I'm going to come back to this.

33:40

What is irrational is

33:42

that the national debate this week has been about

33:44

a comment Le Anderson made, whether

33:46

it's Islamophobic or not, not about

33:48

the threat to our democratic institutions,

33:51

not to the way certain by-election candidates

33:53

have been treated and the fear they've

33:55

been put through in a very significant

33:58

by-election, not about

34:00

the increasing sectarian nature of politics.

34:02

Sure. What's the answer to

34:04

the question? There are, I'm very, very fearful of extreme

34:07

Islam. Very, very fearful. And

34:09

I know there are also

34:11

a huge number of Muslims

34:13

living and working in Britain. I'm going to

34:15

suggest you're Islamophobic and proud. No, that's not

34:17

fair to say. No. That's

34:19

not fair to say. Okay. I

34:21

would argue that the people who are most

34:24

fearful of radical Islam are

34:27

peace-loving, hard-working Muslims living in this country

34:29

who are very worried about their futures.

34:32

Let's talk quickly about the issue of the

34:34

week. These protests, you've

34:36

already said you agree with the Prime Minister.

34:38

You think he was late to the party.

34:41

You ban them? It's

34:43

a devilish problem. I tell you

34:45

what's rational as an answer to that. You

34:48

allow demonstrations, of course you do. We've

34:50

always allowed demonstrations. You don't allow them

34:52

every Saturday. Okay. Would

34:54

you arrest anybody who says from the

34:57

river to the sea Palestine will be

34:59

free? Plenty of people think it's a

35:01

perfectly peaceful statement. Some people think it's

35:03

anti-Israel and anti-Semitism. Well, it's not just

35:05

anti-Israel. It's about the eradication of Israel

35:07

and the people living in it. Not

35:10

in the minds of plenty of people you say. In the minds

35:12

of many it is too. To tell you who I would arrest,

35:15

the people that put it on the

35:17

Elizabeth Tower that houses Big Ben, I'd arrest

35:19

them. No one's been arrested. Would you arrest

35:21

Charlotte Church for saying it? Well, she's

35:24

just a naive idiot, isn't she? You're a rooster.

35:26

But she should be given a severe warning. Yeah,

35:29

she should be made to see the error her

35:31

ways. Absolutely. And what's amazing about this is the

35:33

Mayor of London has said nothing about

35:35

it. Nothing at all about it.

35:37

Now, you mentioned Le Anderson. I

35:39

put to you that you changed the name of

35:41

the Mayor of London. You called

35:43

him Mr Goldstein. He was

35:45

Jewish. And you

35:48

suggested he was controlled, Le Anderson's

35:50

word, by

35:52

Zionists. You

35:55

would say, or wouldn't you? That

35:57

was racism. Clear and clear. Yes,

36:00

no, I think you were sort of... So why

36:02

are you excusing Leander... You'd be in Jeremy Corbyn

36:05

land. Why are you excusing

36:07

Leander? I'm not excusing him. It's also

36:09

interesting. No, honestly, why don't you just

36:11

say, wait a second, completely... I'll explain

36:13

it to you. There is

36:15

something else London gets wrong. Not only

36:18

do the commentary at, and the

36:20

politicians in London, misunderstand

36:22

the genuine concerns out of the country,

36:25

they're also incredibly middle class, and

36:28

very, very snobby. And when

36:30

you have genuinely working class people coming

36:32

into public life, they sometimes say

36:35

things, express emotions, perhaps

36:37

don't use quite the Queen's English in

36:39

the way that presenters on the Today

36:41

programme or elsewhere would do. A guy

36:43

accepts all that, but then when he's

36:46

pointed out to you, you've basically said

36:48

a Muslim is controlled by Islamists. You

36:50

say, look, really sorry, that's not what

36:52

I meant. I meant something else. It

36:54

was an opinion that Lee Gehrger... You're

36:57

not agree with him. Had he backed it up, actually, had

37:00

he actually said, you know, I believe this

37:02

because... Yeah, here's the evidence. There wouldn't be a

37:04

rouse. And what he did was just to say

37:06

it. And I think he has admitted he was

37:08

clumsy, but he's refused to back down. So I

37:10

wouldn't have said it, would I? You know, I would not have said it. Can

37:14

you join reform? Well, you

37:16

better ask Richard Tyson that. That's not my decision. It's

37:18

not my decision. I remind you that

37:20

you set the party up and you are the co-owner

37:22

of the party. A man's working

37:25

class England, he does

37:27

represent, and you can call it whatever you like.

37:29

You can call it an Islam a favour if

37:31

you want to. He does represent Lee a growing

37:33

sense of worry. Now, you've

37:36

predicted there'll be an Islamist party

37:38

in Parliament. Yes. Why

37:42

should that worry people? Those

37:45

of us of a certain age have

37:48

seen what sectarian politics does in Northern

37:50

Ireland. Anybody under 40 doesn't

37:52

know what we're talking about. But

37:55

sectarianism, where people divide

37:58

on the basis of religion... or

38:00

race is inevitably

38:03

going to drag the country further and

38:05

further apart. Do you mean George Galloway

38:07

is going to end up? George Galloway

38:09

is very clever at it and is

38:11

openly and vehemently sectarian in every single

38:13

way. And I think... He

38:15

once shared a platform with him. You called

38:17

him a towering figure on the left of British

38:20

politics. Oh, he is. Oh, he grinned for the

38:22

cameras. Oh, no, he is a towering figure in

38:24

British politics. And in fact, I think in

38:26

the referendum campaign... Interesting, isn't

38:28

it? Galloway... I invited Galloway to

38:31

come on a platform to say we should vote

38:33

Leave. Do you know Bradford voted

38:35

Leave? I think Galloway is very influential. My

38:37

worry is that George is very, very powerful.

38:39

Yeah, you said he was one of the

38:41

great orators of the country, didn't he? He

38:43

said you two? Yeah. He had a rather

38:46

neat description for you. He said you were

38:48

like Churchill and Starling. Well, I'm

38:50

pleased he put me on that side of the line. You're not sure

38:52

it worked out that way, did you? No, I don't think I was...

38:54

You didn't write... No, no, no, no, George was

38:56

a T-totallist, so I must be with Churchill on this. George

38:58

is, oh, as an orator? I

39:01

mean, he's actually stunning, absolutely stunning. But

39:03

to use that talent and to use that

39:05

ability to put out the kind of messages

39:07

that he is in the

39:09

Rochdale by-election, this is sectarianism.

39:11

And my fear is we're

39:14

going to see this. We're

39:16

looking at 20... There are

39:18

20 constituencies that

39:21

by 2029 will be majority Muslim. No,

39:25

it doesn't necessarily have to matter. But

39:27

if they're majority Muslim and they're poor

39:30

and they have low educational standards and

39:32

not much English and they're all

39:35

put on postal votes, something else that needs reforming,

39:37

then I think you will see a gathering of

39:40

people with a very different agenda in Parliament.

39:42

What impact would a

39:44

George Galloway member of Parliament have

39:47

on Britain? George Galloway in

39:50

Parliament would be to do very much, because

39:52

as a venture there's not a huge amount you

39:54

can realistically do. But

39:56

his victory will embolden whether

39:59

it's in Tower House. or Spark Hill or

40:01

wherever it may be in the country, it

40:03

will embolden people to believe that

40:06

actually a vote for a

40:08

candidate who thinks what's happening in

40:10

Gaza is more important than what's happening

40:12

in Britain, it will embolden that whole movement. And

40:15

maybe they'll win a few more seats at

40:17

a general election. I personally believe it'll take

40:19

another five years to germinate fully there. He's

40:22

accused of anti-Semitism. You will know that you have

40:24

been accused of it. Very

40:27

little makes me angry. I noticed

40:29

you react the second I did that. Very little

40:31

makes me angry. Just so the listener knows, why

40:34

do I ask it? You've used the

40:36

word globalist. Often. Goodness gracious

40:38

me. No, I pass it. Let me quote, because

40:41

this is not me saying it. The board of

40:43

British deputies condemned

40:45

your language around globalism and

40:48

described as trading in dog whistles

40:50

and trips about George

40:53

Soros and Goldman Sachs. Cobblers.

40:56

Absolute cobblers. George Soros renounced

40:58

jury decades ago. He has no

41:01

respect for the Jewish religion whatsoever.

41:03

You cannot say George Soros is

41:06

Jewish. What you can say is

41:08

that George Soros has spent over 20 billion

41:11

dollars. Pause the second. 20

41:14

billion dollars on political campaigns. And

41:16

his foundation props up many think

41:18

tanks in this and

41:20

other countries all over the

41:22

world. He supported many of the people fighting

41:25

for their freedom behind the Berlin Wall with

41:27

all the people who are ignoring. And

41:29

he supported many others who want social

41:32

change, political change. And George

41:34

is very much a globalist.

41:36

Very much. And globalism. What

41:39

is globalism? Globalism is about

41:41

big decisions in your life, not

41:43

being taken at national level, but being taken

41:45

by the EU, the World Health Organization, the

41:47

United Nations. That's what all courts, higher courts.

41:49

But you know there are people who say

41:51

globalism is a certain... I'm not having this.

41:53

No, I'm just asking. But there are people

41:55

who say they're not going to kind of

41:58

ruling cabal. That's

42:00

not what you mean. No, I never have and

42:02

I've used the term endlessly and it was interesting

42:04

But Kia Starmer chose to attack me in the

42:07

House of Commons As

42:09

if I'd been sort of derogatory about the

42:11

Jewish lobby. Actually, I've been very praiseworthy that

42:13

particular quote I was saying that in

42:15

America. I was asked by somebody who was an Islamist

42:18

Did the Jews run America in the world? I

42:21

said hang on a second the Jewish community And

42:24

in the East Coast particularly of America have been

42:26

massively successful They have a

42:28

strong voice you call it the Jewish lobby Jewish

42:30

lobby has a strong voice Yeah, I was all

42:32

by the way as all groups wish to have

42:34

I said, but the idea that it runs America

42:37

is a nonsense Now

42:39

part of reason I think you get else's questions is back to

42:41

your old friend. It's back to

42:43

Donald Trump because

42:45

you've said Well,

42:48

let's just confirm it. Do you don't

42:50

think the election was stolen? He

42:52

lost fair and square I think the any

42:55

election any election including

42:57

crooked elections in Britain and goodness knows We've

42:59

got plenty of them any

43:01

election that relies on Big

43:04

early mail-out postal voting

43:07

is bound to give you a wholly unreliable

43:10

Result and what happened in the wake of the pandemic? Well

43:13

suddenly you know places like

43:15

Milwaukee, you know, we're turnouts are

43:17

historically very low in elections The

43:19

ballot papers are sent out in

43:22

vast numbers because of lockdown states

43:25

and then people you know Whether they work for the local

43:27

trade union or ever it is knock at the door and

43:29

collect the votes that is It

43:32

was stolen in plain sight. Let's

43:34

put it like that. It was stolen in most states within the

43:36

law It was the law

43:38

but the word stolen implies illegal unfair

43:40

cheating, you know, I saw in Peterborough

43:42

in a by-elect in 2019 In

43:45

a galaxy with postal voting on a scale you

43:47

can't even believe but I just want to clear

43:49

because I thought you'd said So although you had

43:51

bought Trump I didn't think the election you know,

43:53

you sound like he and I disagreed on this

43:55

We just been in public on this. Yeah, you

43:58

know, I I don't I don't

44:00

think that the stolen

44:02

election narrative is necessarily

44:04

helpful. And I disagree with

44:06

Bannon on this too. I

44:08

think when you look at polling that

44:10

suggests well over half of America is

44:13

concerned about election integrity, the

44:16

more positive approach is to say we are going to

44:18

clean the system up. The

44:20

reason I raised it, you see, is I saw

44:22

your anger about that phrase about the Jewish law.

44:24

Yeah, I know. It upset you. Yeah.

44:28

It's more nuanced when it comes to this is a

44:30

misthreat, but you want to be clear what you are

44:32

and what you're not saying. But

44:34

people say how can you stand alongside a

44:37

man who describes immigrants as

44:39

poisoning the blood of our country? He

44:42

says we need to reach out. The

44:44

communist Marxists, fascists and the

44:46

radical left thugs that quote

44:49

live like vermin within

44:51

the confines of our country. Never

44:54

take everything Trump says literally. And if you do, you're

44:56

going to finish up in the wrong place. But it

44:59

matters. The words matter. The words matter. And the recent

45:01

board of deputies say your words matter, those words matter.

45:04

Actions matter. And four years

45:06

as a president, you

45:08

name me an American president with a better foreign policy

45:10

than Trump in the last 50 years. I'm glad you

45:12

said actions because the challenge always to Nigel Farage is

45:14

what would he do if he actually had power? Quite

45:16

right. I'm making you prime

45:18

minister. Now, immigration.

45:22

Yeah. Very

45:24

high figures. Your prime minister

45:26

today. What do you do? Well, they're

45:28

not high figures. They're completely out of control. We've never seen anything

45:30

like this in our lives. And

45:32

just just to remind, give people a context

45:34

of this. You know, when

45:36

Mr Blair came to power, there were 58

45:38

million people living in the country. And that number

45:40

had been pretty stable for a long, long time.

45:43

There are now officially 68 million people living

45:45

in the country, although we know it's higher. And

45:48

it's going to be 75 million by the mid 2030s.

45:52

And there is no bigger issue that's affected

45:54

the lives of ordinary folk, whether it's getting

45:56

a doctor's appointment or house for their kids

45:59

than this. What do you do? We have

46:01

to get down to, you know,

46:03

I mean net zero would be it would be

46:05

an ideal for a few years What

46:07

do you do? Your Prime Minister you come

46:10

in. I'll tell you what happened. Yeah, you come in

46:12

your Prime Minister, right? And

46:14

I am the Captain Secretary proof. I'll tell you why

46:17

I say to you I said well, mr. Farage I

46:19

know that you want to get immigration now, but we

46:21

have got this huge shortage of nurses Would you like

46:23

me to stop nurses coming here? Not in

46:26

a year two years five years ten today? You're

46:28

probably you just got and that's the other interesting

46:30

thing. What's the answer? The

46:33

answer is what is work and what is migration the

46:35

two have been put together So you

46:37

come on a work visa you can stay that

46:39

should never ever happen We should be

46:41

training our own nurses, but that doesn't happen overnight. No You

46:47

know what you do you

46:49

try as much as you can to

46:51

let market forces work I said it

46:53

while I say this well market force I Predicted

47:01

in 2004 that there would be

47:03

a vast number of people come from the former

47:05

communist countries in Europe Remember

47:12

you Nick Robinson saying to me. Oh, well,

47:14

no one's coming from Romania. Nigel was completely

47:16

wrong There are now over 1.1 million people

47:19

from Romania here. All right, I was right

47:21

about all these things What

47:24

that's effectively done. Well, one of the

47:26

reasons the working classes are as upset as they are Is

47:29

we've now been through a quite prolonged period? Where

47:32

the minimum wage has become

47:34

the maximum wage? Still wondering

47:36

what you have on I think you're giving

47:39

me a not listen commentary. I'm not listening

47:42

market forces over supply of labor

47:45

drives down wages a

47:48

shortage of labor drives

47:51

up wages We

47:53

currently have 5.4 million people of

47:55

working age who are not working and

47:58

in many cases they are

48:01

disincentivised by the tax system from

48:03

going back to work. You

48:05

can't do one thing on its own without

48:07

something else that compensates. If

48:10

you list the threshold

48:12

in which tax starts to be paid, and

48:14

you do have shortages, whether it's baristas or

48:17

nurses, what you find are people in their

48:19

fifties who've kind of packed up

48:21

come back. Understood. So in other words, you

48:23

don't stop immigration overnight, you might need some

48:25

of it, but you can change the incentives.

48:27

Absolutely. And so on. Well, you're not Prime

48:29

Minister yet, and you may not go back

48:31

into politics. You'd be very clear about this.

48:33

So when we talked last time, we

48:36

talked about the fact you've

48:38

had your challenges, and

48:41

you were kind enough to say I had. You dodged

48:43

cancer. You survived

48:45

a plane crash. Yes. And

48:47

you said that 30 years of campaigning, you'd always

48:50

known might wreck your marriage, destroy

48:52

your business and make you poor. All

48:54

of that was true. What

48:56

on earth do you think you've gone back and

48:58

forth? Well, I'm quite right. I mean, no, like,

49:00

do you know, compared to four years ago, when

49:03

I made those comments, you

49:05

know, life has been immeasurably better in

49:08

lots and lots of ways. I take the

49:10

credit, you know. And

49:13

you've had your challenges, Dick, and I, you know, I mean, your

49:16

cancer was far worse than mine. But

49:20

this is for me a massive decision. You

49:23

know, I'm going to be 60 in a couple of weeks' time. And

49:26

let's say I fight the general election. Let's

49:28

say I win a seat in Westminster. Well, that's

49:31

a minimum five-year commitment. It's a

49:33

minimum five-year commitment. So it's

49:35

a decision for me that will take

49:37

me beyond what would normally be retirement

49:39

age. It is back into a life

49:43

of increased scrutiny. I mean, not

49:45

that I haven't got it already, but

49:47

of massively increased scrutiny. The

49:49

additional pressures that adds on family,

49:52

close connections, it's a massive

49:55

decision. And going into public

49:57

service is a massive, massive

49:59

decision. decision and that

50:02

will be part of my calculation. The

50:04

biggest part though, the biggest part will

50:07

be is the timing right? Can

50:10

I do something? I'm not

50:12

interested in just winning a seat and I

50:14

did 20 years in the European Parliament just serving five

50:16

years in Westminster or ten years. That's of no interest

50:18

to me. I will come

50:20

back into this and do this if I

50:23

think I can really help orchestrate historic change.

50:26

Let's end where we began. You

50:28

said that part of your success

50:30

was because you got personality. Yeah. And

50:33

part of that personality we've seen it today is, however

50:35

tough the question is, you smile,

50:38

you laugh. Are

50:40

there dark moments? Does

50:42

Nigel Farage have moments away from the cameras,

50:45

away from the TV? I have awful

50:47

moments. I have quiet moments. Yeah,

50:49

press moments. No, I

50:52

don't have depressed moments. No, never. Never.

50:55

And I, do you know what? I

50:58

have reflective moments. Moments when

51:00

I think, you know, am I

51:02

doing this the right way? And when people say,

51:04

and they say some pretty foul things about you, have you ever

51:06

heard one thought, maybe

51:10

they've got a point? Maybe I have

51:12

gone too far, maybe I have said something that isn't

51:14

right. The ones that, the only thing that ever upset,

51:16

normally I laugh. I don't really care, you

51:18

know, I

51:20

mean, you know, if Keir

51:23

Starver wants to big me up to knock me down in

51:25

PM, I mean, most of it, I think it's funny. The

51:28

only times I get upset are

51:30

if people say things that are

51:32

completely untrue and wrong and out

51:34

by 180 degrees. That

51:37

upsets me. The rest of it, no,

51:39

it's all fair knock-about, isn't it? It's

51:41

all, you know, if

51:44

you put your head over the parapet, you've got

51:46

to expect to get it. And most of it,

51:48

and the cartoons and all that goes with it,

51:50

most of it, Nick, no, to be honest, I

51:52

love it. Nigel Farage,

51:54

thanks for joining me again on Political Thinking. Perhaps

51:56

in four years' time. You never know. You

51:58

never know what. There

52:02

are no doubt still people after

52:05

that interview who are saying why

52:08

do you listen to Nigel

52:10

Farage? The answer is love

52:13

him or loathe him. He changes

52:15

things in Britain and

52:18

he might change them again. As

52:21

I spoke to him I was reminded

52:24

of that old phrase about

52:27

the joys of having power without

52:30

responsibility. I'll leave

52:32

you to remember what the rest of

52:34

the quotation was. Thanks for

52:37

listening. You can get

52:39

all previous episodes of Political Thinking

52:41

on BBC Sounds including my conversation

52:43

with Nigel Farage about his upbringing,

52:45

his schooling, his life

52:47

as a commodities trader and the

52:49

other things that shaped the views

52:52

that he has today. The

52:54

producer is Dan Kramer, the editor

52:56

is Jonathan Brunet and the studio manager

52:59

is Gareth Jones. Hello

53:03

I'm Greg Jenner, I'm the host of You're

53:05

Dead To Me on BBC Sounds. We are

53:07

the comedy show that takes history seriously and

53:09

we are back for a seventh series where

53:11

as ever I'm joined by brilliant comedians and

53:13

historians to discuss global history and we're doing

53:16

Catherine the Great of Russia with David Mitchell,

53:18

The History of Kung Fu with Phil Wang.

53:20

We're doing the Bloomsbury Group for a hundredth

53:22

episode with Susie Ruffell and we're finishing with

53:24

a Mozart Spectacular with the BBC Concert Orchestra.

53:26

So that's series seven of You're Dead To

53:28

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