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1:13

Our

1:19

movement is fighting. Our movement is

1:21

winning. Our movement, brothers

1:23

and sisters, is back. So

1:25

said my guest on this, the first

1:27

episode of a new series of Political Thinking. A

1:30

conversation with,

1:32

rather than a news interrogation of, someone

1:35

who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped

1:37

theirs. Paul Novak is

1:40

the new General Secretary of the TUC. And

1:43

this week, the Trade Union

1:45

Congress meets in his home city

1:47

of Liverpool. And it meets

1:50

at a time when there are more strikes

1:52

than there have been for many years. And

1:55

at a time when, Paul Novak

1:57

says, working people are fighting back.

1:59

after the longest sustained squeeze

2:02

on their incomes in two

2:04

centuries. Paul Mowat, welcome to Political

2:06

Thinking. Oh, thanks, Nick. Now, another thing

2:08

you once said. Oh, dear. I

2:10

fit every stereotype of a daily male

2:12

trade unionist. I'm slightly overweight,

2:14

balding scouser who gets a little bit too

2:16

aerated. Well, I think it's an accurate description,

2:19

don't you? Well, we'll see,

2:21

shall we? What gets you aerated?

2:24

A lot of things get me aerated, but I mean, I tell

2:26

you what really gets me aerated is it's going

2:28

out talking to our members, talking to

2:30

working people, seeing people who are working hard day

2:32

in, day out and

2:33

who can't make ends meet. And

2:35

that really does that fires me

2:37

up because I just think people are able to work every day,

2:39

people who try to do the right thing should

2:41

be able to not just get by in life, they should be able to

2:44

take the kids on holiday, buy them a treat, go

2:46

out for a nice meal. And unfortunately, I meet far

2:48

too many of our members for whom life is is

2:50

a struggle, not something to enjoy. Now, we don't be talking

2:52

about how you became a trade unionist, why

2:55

you stayed a trade unionist. But first,

2:57

that quote, our movement is fighting, our

3:00

movement is winning. Really?

3:03

I think it is. And I'll give you some examples.

3:05

So you said our Congress is going to be in Liverpool

3:07

this year. I've done dozens,

3:10

hundreds of picket lines over the last eight and nine months

3:12

since I've been general secretary. A few

3:14

in Liverpool in particular with Jacob's Biscuit

3:16

workers, they won 6.7% for their pay rise. Kingsmore

3:20

bakery workers, 8.7%, Liverpool Dockers, 18%. So

3:25

in the private sector, where employers can afford

3:27

to pay more, we've definitely forced them to pay more.

3:30

And in the public sector, if you think back to last

3:32

year, ministers are saying, here's the outcomes

3:34

of the pay review bodies. There's no negotiations.

3:37

There's no new money. There's nothing worth talking about.

3:40

Actually, in education, in health, in civil

3:42

service and other areas, our members said

3:44

that's not good enough. They took

3:46

action, they voted for action and ministers had to move.

3:48

So it's not a land of

3:50

milk and honey. It's not perfect. But I think our members

3:52

have demonstrated taking action makes a difference. And yet

3:55

in the public sector, you're seeing whether it's nurses

3:57

who couldn't successfully

3:59

buy...

3:59

up for more action, whether it's

4:02

a train, rail workers, a train drivers,

4:04

whether it's now doctors, not

4:07

getting very far, very fast are they? Well they're all

4:09

different disputes and the TUC doesn't represent all

4:11

of those unions, the majority of our health unions did reach

4:13

agreements and I just make the point, on

4:15

rail, as left our train drivers union

4:17

has reached agreements, 14 agreements with

4:20

train operators, the one thing they've got in common is that

4:22

they're not linked to the DFT, so if it's Mersey

4:24

rail or Scott rail or Transport for

4:26

Wales they've reached agreements, what they've

4:29

not been able to get is agreement, full and straight operating

4:31

companies who've got a mandate set by the government and the government

4:33

needs to move there. Well let's talk about how you became

4:35

the person you are, why you became the trade unionist

4:38

you are, was it a political family? Political

4:41

family, I mean growing up in Mersey side in

4:43

the 80s and 90s everybody was political with a big

4:45

and a small p and so my mum and dad

4:47

were never members of the Labour Party, we were never trade

4:50

union activists but they were always politically engaged

4:52

and you know I mean it was it's what

4:54

we talked about round the dinner table, Latin, Everton

4:57

basically you know, so yeah.

4:59

Let's

4:59

not discuss Everton because you're probably depressed. Yeah

5:02

no let's start off on a good foot. But Liverpool

5:05

in the 80s was a place on

5:07

the one hand of economic decline of

5:10

mass unemployment but also political

5:12

turmoil, not just turmoil between

5:15

Liverpool's political representatives and the Thatcher

5:17

government but within the Labour movement,

5:20

did you feel even as a kid growing

5:22

up and then as a teenager dragged into that?

5:25

Well you did feel it because I mean you switched on the news

5:27

or you read the Liverpool Echo or the Daily Post

5:29

and you know you heard about what was going

5:32

on with the militant city council and that

5:34

backwards and forwards with the National Labour Party

5:36

but there was also a sense, I mean I

5:38

grew up but you know my my granddad lived in Toxleton

5:41

in Liverpool, I was there visiting him

5:43

in his flat when the riots took place in 81

5:45

and it felt like a city,

5:49

I mean that Tories famously once said you know leave

5:51

it manage decline and it felt like

5:54

Liverpool was being left to look after itself. So

5:56

the fight in you comes partly from

5:58

that, did you did you take

5:59

parts in that were you choosing

6:02

side were you militant oh yeah I was I

6:04

was ten or eleven at the time so I don't

6:06

think I but I joined a union at the age of 17 I

6:08

joined the Labour Party at the age of 19 but

6:11

the fight also came from my mum and dad

6:14

my mum in particular she's like five foot

6:16

nothing curve of scouts passion

6:18

and enthusiasm you know maybe

6:20

I got a little bit of that from her and you spent more

6:22

time with her than your dad didn't you because he was a welder

6:25

he spent time traveling sometimes

6:28

abroad yeah yeah to work on the oil rigs

6:30

and so on yeah I used to work in the North Sea two weeks

6:32

on two weeks off but I used to also I'm at

6:34

Nigeria Abu Dhabi I

6:37

mean sometimes he's away from months

6:39

on end and so I mean he just went where

6:41

the work was and how did that shape

6:43

your view of work because

6:46

in that sort of industry unions

6:48

I don't imagine were very powerful they were

6:50

in different parts I mean because obviously you also worked

6:52

at camel heads in the shipyard and in local power

6:54

stations and stuff but in part

6:57

of the North Sea I mean you know certainly the bigger American

6:59

drilling

6:59

companies wanted to keep unions out how

7:02

did it shape my view of work well first of all I mean he gave me

7:04

an appreciation of hard work I mean he was a bloody

7:06

hard worker my dad and I'll appreciate everything

7:08

he's ever done for us so I took that ethic from

7:11

him but I also that thing of just

7:13

being able to stand up for yourself and sometimes when you got

7:15

it I mean I always remember him telling me when he went for

7:17

you know when you went on the rigs you had

7:19

to go for his safety training go

7:21

for his world and examinations being

7:24

asked to pay effectively a bride by someone

7:26

so they would sign off on a certificate so we could work in

7:28

the North Sea you know you're gonna be earning

7:29

a few more a few more Bob I'll have a little

7:32

bit if we sign it yeah and we want something in return yeah

7:34

and you know they're the sort of little indignities

7:36

that working people have to put with all the time

7:39

you talk now about little indignities

7:41

but your grandparents both

7:44

came from abroad didn't they yeah yeah and

7:46

they I imagine as they came to Liverpool and

7:48

people often forget who don't know the city this is a

7:50

city of migration it's a city that looks

7:53

out to the sea it's a city that looks

7:55

to the west not towards

7:58

Europe did they shape you

8:00

Absolutely, and again, sort of main

8:02

different experiences. My granddad Joe came

8:04

over during the Second World War with the Polish RAF,

8:07

based in Liverpool, stayed in Liverpool. Granddad

8:10

Jimmy, or Chinsang, came from Hong Kong,

8:12

Lamar Island in Hong Kong, and he was a cook in the

8:14

Merchant Navy, and again married an Irish

8:17

Liverpool woman and stayed in the city. But

8:19

everybody in Liverpool has got a bit of their family that

8:21

came from somewhere else. And you can't over-romanticise

8:25

things. I mean, you know, it's got a fair share of problems.

8:27

We saw just recently, you

8:29

know, those disgraceful

8:30

scenes outside the asylum seekers'

8:32

hostel in Nozli. No city's

8:34

perfect, but certainly that sort of sense of, you

8:37

know, the value of difference is part

8:39

of who I am, I suppose. Yeah, so you appreciate

8:41

that, and presumably appreciate the fight that your grandparents

8:44

have to have, to be taken as

8:46

equals, and to get rights

8:48

as workers. Well, absolutely, and remember, at

8:51

the end of the Second World War in Liverpool, actually hundreds

8:54

of Chinese merchant navymen sailors were rounded

8:56

up and deported from the country. And we

8:58

thought there were about 20,000 in Liverpool at the time. Yeah,

9:00

and some had families, and the

9:02

families thought that they'd abandoned them, and they hadn't

9:04

abandoned them. They'd been deported by the UK authorities.

9:07

And, you know, I suppose my

9:10

granddad Joe worked for most of his life at English

9:12

Electric, but he was always, you know, Joe

9:14

the Pole, difference. And

9:17

so that's why it does

9:19

frustrate me. Well, it doesn't frustrate

9:21

me. It makes me angry when I hear about ministers

9:24

politicising migration and talking about

9:26

migrants as if they're a bird, and they've got no contribution

9:28

to make to this country. Because I certainly think

9:31

my family did. So

9:32

that's what the background is. Let's talk

9:34

about you. Before we get to you becoming

9:37

a trade genius when you were first a worker,

9:39

you organised a bit when you were a kid, weren't you? You

9:41

were the kid on the street. This is why you

9:43

should never let your brother talk to the media. Yeah,

9:46

I used to run things like, so I used to run the... I

9:49

used to... When the Olympics were on, I'd run the Olympic

9:51

Games in our street, which would be everything from organising

9:54

all the races, obviously carefully calibrated

9:56

so that me and Arjon won some of them at least. But,

9:58

you know, that included...

9:59

Which one did you win? I was particularly good at the backwards

10:02

running. But painting

10:04

the medals and all the rest of it, I organized dog shows

10:06

for the local kids, BMX

10:08

tournaments, I mean, you name it, street hockey.

10:11

That was just part of who I was. There's no

10:14

fun, I think, better than fun that's organized

10:16

and preferably by me. Yeah, so it's good to

10:18

know. It's great fun so long as you're the organizer.

10:21

As long as I'm in charge, it's great. And you can rig it a bit. So

10:23

you go to university, we'll talk about that in just a second,

10:26

but when you leave,

10:28

you're in quite insecure jobs,

10:31

bit like your mum and dad, I suspect. But

10:34

unusually, you're at Asda

10:37

and you're straight into organizing as

10:39

a union rep. Yeah, I mean, I joined,

10:42

I think the first day that I went to

10:44

Asda, I worked in the warehouse in the local

10:46

supermarket when they opened up and

10:48

I became a health and safety rep just a couple of months

10:51

afterwards. And I think it's

10:54

a cliche, but it's true the trades union movement has

10:56

probably been the most important part of my education,

10:58

going on the training courses with other reps, talking

11:00

to people from different, not just in supermarkets,

11:03

but working in factories, working in breweries, I mean,

11:06

it helps you grow up and it gives you a sense of, different

11:09

perspective on life, I suppose.

11:11

And when you move on then to a call

11:13

center, another place

11:15

that let's be honest, doesn't have a lot of trade union organizing,

11:17

you again become an organizer.

11:20

Yeah, and this was because we were actually working

11:22

for in a unionized employer, but

11:24

for an employment agency. And

11:26

that sort of sense of a two tier workforce, which

11:28

is so prevalent still today, was definitely

11:30

the case then. And we organized

11:33

well over a hundred people into the union, we

11:36

remember it was the first national pay negotiation

11:38

I'd ever been involved in, the union full-time

11:40

officer came up, we had the negotiation

11:43

with the employee, we had to report back to the members, all of that

11:45

sort of stuff. And then, yeah.

11:47

Then you got sacked. Yeah. For your

11:49

troubles. I think the employee said that we weren't sacked,

11:51

there was just, the assignments

11:54

had changed. So we were all off the contract,

11:56

80 odd of us off the contract, but don't worry, we'll

11:59

find you other way.

11:59

enough they never found me other work. Now

12:02

here in this description you might think you were 42 at the

12:05

time, you were 22. Yeah. You're already

12:07

involved in national paid negotiations, you're already being

12:09

made. I wouldn't want to overstate my role

12:11

in those negotiations, I was definitely the junior partner

12:13

but I was the one who helped organize people

12:16

on the ground and in fact I'm still in touch with a few those

12:19

union reps today as

12:21

well as a passion for trade unionism. We're

12:24

also Evertonians and Bruce Springsteen

12:26

fans so we meet up. Now

12:29

part of your politics then

12:29

comes as it does for many of us at university

12:33

where you studied at home at

12:35

Liverpool Poly as it used to be called now, John Moores

12:38

University. Was it a left-wing

12:40

education? It wasn't, well it wasn't, it wasn't.

12:43

I started off on a building

12:45

degree

12:46

because my dad had moved into the building industry,

12:49

my uncle was a builder, in fact he got me

12:51

and my mate from school and one of his

12:53

cousins all got places at Liverpool

12:55

Poly then John Moores on a building degree. I

12:57

lasted a year before I was unceremoniously

13:00

kicked off so I did urban studies

13:02

then. Kicked off why? Because

13:05

as anyone in my family will tell you I am

13:07

the least practical Novak.

13:09

So you're not a man to put on a shelf? No, no

13:12

but I've got a brother who can. Let

13:14

me just tell you I tried putting on a shelf for the first time

13:16

in 10 years, last weekend it fell

13:18

down. Yes, yeah well that would definitely be me

13:21

so I got kicked off so I ended up doing, well

13:23

first of all started urban studies and countryside

13:25

management which was a bit of an eclectic mix,

13:28

ended up doing urban studies and to

13:30

be honest I wasn't a great student, I

13:32

wasn't a great attender but I shared politics

13:34

with a couple of lecturers and I think that probably

13:36

got me through. When you say you shared policies they were Marxists

13:39

weren't they? Yeah, yeah and my wife

13:41

who I met at university but we didn't

13:44

get together at university far from it but

13:46

she always maintains

13:46

that the only reason I got my degree was because

13:49

one of the senior lecturers was a Marxist

13:51

and I recycled the same essay effectively four

13:53

or five times and he seemed to

13:55

like it even if no one else did. Now the essay was on

13:58

the militant tendency on that fact.

13:59

action that took over the Liverpool

14:02

Labour Party, that were kicked out of the Labour Party

14:04

by Neil Kinnick. Were you kind of a bit approving

14:07

then? Did you disapprove? Have

14:09

you learnt from them since? Yeah,

14:11

no, I mean, there's been a lot written about

14:13

that period and I can't remember exactly the

14:15

perspective I put on that essay whenever

14:18

it was 30 years ago. Even though you wrote it

14:20

eight times? Yeah, but I

14:22

didn't have to really rewrite it, I just resubmitted

14:24

it. You know, I think it was a sort of sense

14:27

of, if you were growing up in that city, I

14:29

mean you had

14:29

the government that wasn't interested in the city, mass

14:32

unemployment, real poverty and

14:34

despair, people were

14:36

looking for somebody to stand up and

14:39

provide an alternative. Derek, that

14:41

is the deputy leader of the council. I'm not just Derek,

14:43

and you know, this was happening alongside the

14:46

miners' striker and then whooping that sense

14:48

of a polarisation in politics.

14:50

Is it 100% my politics? No,

14:52

but I mean, you know, it was a

14:55

time when people felt that they had to stand up

14:57

because no one was listening Westminster and I

14:59

think if you look

14:59

across Britain today, there are lots of towns and places

15:02

where people feel nobody down there is listening

15:04

to us and I think we need to.

15:05

Now, the culmination of this, or

15:08

rather the end of this, was Neil

15:10

Kinnick then leader of the Labour Party condemning

15:13

what he called the grotesque chaos,

15:16

he said, of a Labour council,

15:18

a Labour council, he repeated

15:20

the phrase, you'll remember that in his speech, didn't

15:22

he? Hiring taxes to deliver redundancy

15:25

notices to his own workers and that was the beginning

15:27

of the end for militants, at least within

15:29

the Labour Party. I just

15:32

wonder if

15:32

that now you look back

15:35

teaches you something about what does work, what

15:37

doesn't work when you're dealing with a conservative

15:39

government. Yeah, I mean, I think when you

15:42

split the Labour and Trade Union movements, you

15:44

weaken the Labour and Trade Union movements.

15:47

And when you split the Labour movement, generally you weaken

15:50

the Labour movements. And so I've spent

15:52

most of my time as a trade unionist

15:54

and as a Labour Party member trying to build consensus,

15:57

not agreements on everything, but that

15:59

sort

15:59

that a united party is a party that's

16:02

more likely to win power and why do we want to win power

16:04

because we want to make things better for working people. Well it's interesting

16:06

you say that because

16:08

shock revelation, conservative ministers say

16:10

that about you. I've spoken to some who dealt with

16:12

you during the pandemic,

16:14

during Covid when you at the TUC

16:16

and you've been working in the TUC for

16:19

what, around two decades before you became

16:21

general secretary had direct talks

16:23

with ministers about how to deal with Covid.

16:27

Did you ever have a seat when you first did that and pinched yourself

16:29

and said what am I doing, I'm sitting around the table with a bunch

16:31

of Tories and I grew up in a city

16:33

that hated them. And you know

16:36

that's the beauty of trade unions and the beauty,

16:38

I mean my job is to represent working people

16:40

and I don't, you know whoever's in number 10, whoever's

16:43

in the department of business, whoever's in the department

16:45

for transport, my job's to build a relationship

16:47

and try and take forward the stuff that matters

16:49

to our members and you know during the pandemic you

16:51

know for example Chris Heaton Harris was

16:53

the rail minister, you know we had regular engagements

16:59

not just with me but with the rail unions as well about

17:01

how we're going to rebuild the rail after

17:03

the pandemic, you know we're going to need to invest and

17:05

all. That's why it's been so disappointing the approach

17:07

to the government

17:08

has taken over the last 12 or 18 months. And you even met

17:10

Boris Johnson didn't you? Yes, yes. How

17:12

was that? It's been an interesting experience. I

17:15

mean clearly, I mean how honest

17:17

do you want me to be, I mean here's a man I think where you...

17:19

I'm not honest at all. You... I'd

17:21

like you to be totally honest. You will know him much better than

17:24

me. I mean that sort of sense that you've got to get

17:26

his attention and

17:29

once you did get his attention then the conversation,

17:31

it was engaged but you know as I

17:34

say I think I went in for that meeting

17:36

with Francis O'Grady who was then the general secretary.

17:38

It's our job to go in and have the conversations

17:40

that most trade unions wouldn't normally have because

17:43

now as I say first and foremost members come first.

17:46

But you Francis who we've

17:48

interviewed on this podcast in the past, you

17:50

took quite a lot of credit, you claimed quite a lot

17:52

of credit for the Furlough programme, for that programme

17:55

to remind people in which people got paid not

17:57

to work during the pandemic because they often

17:59

couldn't.

17:59

work because of the pandemic.

18:02

Do you really think that the TU3

18:05

made that policy happen? I do

18:07

and I think Francis in particular takes a lot of credit for that.

18:09

I mean I don't think it would happen and certainly

18:11

wouldn't happen to the scale that we saw it happen without our

18:14

intervention. I mean a couple of weeks before

18:16

the Chancellor announced Fairlow, I'd actually

18:18

given evidence of a parliamentary select committee just

18:21

as the lockdown was starting and said you are going to need to

18:23

have a massive short-term

18:25

job subsidy scheme. That's the only way we're going to keep

18:27

people in employment, the only way that you're going to get people

18:30

to be able to keep homes, their livelihoods.

18:33

We had a series of practical conversations

18:35

with the Treasury, Francis in particular talking

18:37

directly to Rishi Sunak, our

18:40

team talking to Treasury officials

18:42

and I think not just the Fairlow scheme, the

18:45

work we did on safe working, keeping millions

18:47

of people safe who had to go to work during the pandemic. What

18:50

goes around? Yeah, wouldn't have happened

18:52

without unions sat around the table. Yeah, there you

18:54

were sitting around the table with Tory Minister, Tory

18:56

Prime Minister, when you got this job,

18:59

you wrote to Rishi Sunak and said, well,

19:01

should we meet then? Yeah. And what's

19:03

he said? I haven't even had a day, John. Have

19:07

you had a, your letter is being processed? Yes,

19:10

and you know what, it's not just Rishi, it's

19:12

our current Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt has I think

19:14

said in front of select committees two,

19:17

maybe three times that he's happy to meet

19:19

with me personally, meet with the head of the TUC,

19:21

a meeting hasn't happened. We were

19:24

told it can't happen while there are ongoing public sector

19:26

pay disputes. To be fair, if

19:29

if the TUC could never talk to the union while there's a

19:31

dispute between one bit of government and a union,

19:33

we would never meet ever full stop.

19:35

Yeah, he said, he said, I was reading it, he

19:38

said, I think it would have added a complexity to

19:40

those discussions was his Jeremy

19:42

Hunt's explanation. Yeah, well, I think

19:44

it may brought a little bit clarity to those discussions

19:47

and encourage the government to get to the negotiating table

19:49

earlier. And now you're meeting

19:51

in your home city, the TUC,

19:53

you're trying clearly to influence the agenda

19:56

on what you hope will be the next government, the Labour government.

19:58

And you're

19:59

telling the

19:59

them not about workers rights interestingly

20:02

but your big headline announcement is tax

20:04

policy. Well let's start with workers rights

20:07

though because I mean Labour Angela Rainer

20:09

will come to our Congress on the Tuesday

20:11

and she'll talk about Labour's New Deal for workers and that

20:13

will be a potentially transformative

20:16

programme in terms of workers rights in this country.

20:18

I could list out all of the things that are in there but a

20:20

ban on fire and rehire, tackling zero

20:22

hours contracts, union rights access the workplace

20:25

blah blah I could go on I could go on Nick. There's

20:27

got a bit of cold feet about that though I mean there

20:29

was a thing called the national policy forum you know it's got

20:31

a nerdy exercise in which they go through the detail

20:34

and they started to water it down we'll consult on

20:36

this we won't do it on day one.

20:38

They're gonna consult on employment status I know

20:40

and believe that that package will be

20:42

part and parcel Labour's manifesto going

20:45

into the next election and I've got every confidence

20:47

Keir said it at our Congress last year Angela

20:49

will say it this year it's a day one first 100

20:52

day priority for an income and Labour government and

20:54

that's what we need because we need to reset

20:56

the balance of power workplaces but we also need to have

20:58

a broader conversation I think about

21:01

inequality in this country in a time when

21:04

I go around the country talking to those members who can't

21:06

make

21:07

ends meet

21:08

Portish had its best ever year for sales in

21:10

the UK last year 4100 chief

21:13

executives saw the pay go up by half a million

21:15

pounds in pay rises not

21:18

pay rises last year 19% best

21:22

every year best two years I should say for

21:24

city bonuses since the financial

21:26

crash so I want a conversation

21:28

about how do we make sure we tax wealth

21:31

and not work and how do we make sure that we rebalance

21:33

our economy not just the workplace. What do you mean

21:35

by wealth what would it be that

21:37

was taxed at Portish the house share

21:40

of holdings what would be taxed? I don't think it's my

21:43

job to design sort of the tax code for

21:45

the country and I don't even think it's actually Labour's

21:47

job to set out maybe 12 months out from an election

21:49

the detail of all of their tax plans but we've we've

21:52

put forward ideas like equalising

21:54

capital gains tax with income tax

21:56

like a wealth tax on those who hold

21:58

more than three million pounds

21:59

in assets like taxing the

22:02

excess profits of the oil and gas giants and

22:05

the banks. And these are all things that have got huge

22:07

public support, huge public support. I mean,

22:09

a majority conservative voters feel

22:12

that there's a need to tax wealth more fairly in this country.

22:14

They've got big public support, but not from

22:16

the leadership of the Labour Party. The Shadow Chancellor

22:18

Rachel Reeves goes to the

22:20

Telegraph, where Olsen says, no,

22:22

no, no, not doing wealth taxes. I quote,

22:25

she says the tax burden is its highest

22:27

in 60, maybe even 70 years. There have

22:29

been 24 tax

22:29

rises in the 13 years of the conservative

22:32

government. I don't see a route to having more money

22:34

for public services that is through taxing

22:37

our way there. Is she not telling

22:39

you the truth? No, listen,

22:41

I've got a huge amount of respect for Rachel. I

22:44

hope that she's our next chancellor because I think that we

22:46

need a fundamental change of approach in

22:49

number 10 and number 11. But

22:51

on this issue, I'm just going to continue to bang the drum

22:53

because I think it's really important. I mean, as

22:55

I say, that there is something fundamentally broken with

22:57

our taxation system. It hasn't taken into account

22:59

the fact that wealth, the

23:02

wealth of the top one percent in this country has grown 31 times

23:05

faster than the rest of us over the last decade.

23:07

We've got to do something about that. It's an interesting thought

23:09

about the role of the trade unions.

23:11

In part, I stress in part,

23:14

do you see yourself as creating the political

23:16

space? You can go a bit further than the Labour Party

23:18

can go. You can try and shift

23:21

public opinion so that they can keep

23:23

an eye on it and go, oh, right, thank you very much. We

23:25

now can embrace a wealth tax. Yeah, you see, first

23:28

and foremost, I don't see things through the prism

23:29

of the Labour Party. I think I've got to represent

23:32

the views of our five and a half million members and make

23:34

sure that stuff that matters to them is on the agenda

23:37

for all politicians. But I do think it's

23:39

about trying to reflect back to politicians.

23:41

And again, all politicians, I mean, if Jeremy

23:43

Hunt wants to pick up those ideas in the autumn statements,

23:46

I'd be absolutely cock-a-hoop. I suspect he won't,

23:48

but I would be cock-a-hooper. I'd be

23:50

stunned. But, you know, trying

23:53

to reflect, I mean, as I say, majority of Conservative

23:55

voters feel that there's scope to

23:57

increase taxes on the wealthy. Majority Conservative

23:59

voters...

23:59

voters would love to see things like far and rehire

24:02

out law. And I think it's about like foregrounding

24:05

what is the mainstream view of the public out there

24:07

to politicians across the spectrum. Now, it's interesting

24:09

you talk about your five and a half million men. Yes. And

24:12

you are now the head of this great trade union

24:14

movement. The critics would

24:16

say the

24:17

failure, though, has been to do what

24:19

you tried to do as a teenager, that

24:22

it is the very sectors that have grown,

24:24

the sectors that you started life

24:26

in, in a supermarket,

24:29

in a call centre where the trade

24:31

union is having lost members in the traditional industries

24:33

just have failed to recruit. I

24:35

know it's frustrating. I think there

24:37

are very good reasons for it. But let me tell you something

24:39

through through on to try and so our

24:42

retail unions will tell you that every year they're

24:44

recruiting around a quarter of their membership just to

24:46

stay still because of the nature

24:47

of the industry where people are cycling

24:50

in and out of

24:53

employment. We've been dealing with, you know, if you

24:55

think back to 1979 and the cumulative years of

24:57

all those conservative governments, wave after

24:59

wave, we've got this this latest attack

25:02

on on the right to strike from the current government of

25:04

anti-union legislation, legislation

25:06

designed to make it difficult for unions to organize.

25:08

So take those warehouses. I

25:10

was up at Amazon in Coventry where the

25:13

GMB is trying to organize warehouse workers. We've

25:15

got no right to access

25:17

the workplace. We've got no right to have contact

25:19

details of the workers who work there. The

25:22

company can play fast and loose with the the

25:24

union recognition legislation to frustrate

25:27

the union's attempts to get representation. So it's

25:29

not a level playing field or a fair playing field. Is it

25:31

naive to think, though, that you

25:33

can do it in a different way? Instead of being in

25:35

opposition to management, saying, look, we've got to get

25:38

in and therefore we can hold the management's

25:40

feet to the fire. You've got to work

25:42

with them. And so if you want to lose fewer

25:44

people, you want less turnover, less

25:47

cost

25:47

from people constantly leaving

25:49

to get better jobs, we'll work with

25:51

you. Now, some argue, company like Greggs

25:54

have done that, that what they've shown

25:56

is that they can work with the workers,

25:58

they can pay them a bit better than they get.

25:59

elsewhere and that is a better

26:02

more cooperative way to work. And that is 90% of

26:04

the work that unions do so Greg's

26:06

also have a relationship with the Bakers Union. I

26:08

was up in B&M Bargains in Runcorn

26:11

in one of their warehouse and distribution

26:13

centres. Usdore our shop workers union

26:15

working really closely with management there. They've turned a

26:17

situation around where they had 500% labour

26:20

turnover. So people coming to work and

26:23

then saying at the end of the week never going back there again. 500%

26:26

labour turnover completely transformed

26:28

because of the work the unions and employers have

26:30

done together. Now I say 90% of

26:32

our work that's what we do with employees. We want our

26:34

members to work for successful organisations but

26:37

it also does mean when you've got an employer that's taken

26:39

the mickey out of workers like Amazon we're

26:41

going to stand up and we're going to fight them. And I think

26:44

ultimately we will get a union voice in Amazon

26:46

and elsewhere. You spoke to Labour and Pease,

26:48

the parliamentary Labour party a month or two

26:50

ago. And you said while any

26:52

serious government in waiting needs to engage

26:54

business it's got to face down the business

26:57

lobby when it gets it wrong. What does it have to

26:59

face down? It has to face down

27:01

the same siren voices

27:03

from the business lobby that in 1997 told

27:05

everybody that national minimum wage would cost us

27:08

a million jobs and it'd drive the UK economy

27:10

off the edge of a cliff. Funny enough none

27:12

of that happened. The CBI called it wrong

27:14

there, the other employers organisations

27:17

called it wrong. And I think actually I

27:19

speak to lots of good employers all

27:21

the time.

27:22

I was up in Airbus in North Wales a few weeks

27:24

ago. A company like Airbus has

27:26

got nothing at all to fear from the New Deal

27:28

for workers because they've got a strong relationship

27:30

with the union, they've got really well organised

27:32

workplaces, it's a world class company. But

27:34

what we do need to do is drive out the cowboys

27:37

and I think that New Deal for work would

27:39

help us get a level playing field for good employers

27:41

as well. Now over your years, decades

27:44

sorry. I don't look it though

27:46

do I? No quite exactly

27:48

you still look 22 honestly you do. I

27:51

am the only one and a half

27:52

family who's lost his hair. Ah yeah well let's

27:54

not talk about that. To

27:56

share challenge Nick. Let's talk instead

27:58

about football shall we? It's a party.

27:59

It's supporting the trade union movement

28:02

occasionally and the Labour Party felt like

28:04

supporting your team evident as in recent

28:06

years. Sometimes it is a triumph of hope over

28:08

experience. I

28:11

was trying to think when Everton last won a trade

28:13

union. 1995, I remember that,

28:15

yeah and we did. You'll remember

28:17

that as well. Even longer than since the Labour Party

28:19

overturned the Conservative majority in the election. So 1995

28:23

and my kids have never seen them win anything.

28:25

I mean I've never heard them utter

28:28

the immortal words, why did you make us become Evertonians

28:29

rather than Reds? But

28:32

you know I know they're thinking it sometimes. Yeah now

28:34

I don't want to intrude on private grief but seriously

28:37

people who love Everton as you do and so many

28:39

people do in a lovable despair for the club. Not

28:42

actually at the moment because of the performance on the

28:44

pitch.

28:45

That's not great is it? But off

28:47

the pitch do you look at this club

28:50

as a kind of metaphor for wider problems

28:53

in society? I mean you

28:55

know Everton's owned by a British Iranian businessman

28:57

who's chairman of a Russian holding

29:00

company. He spent hundreds of millions of

29:02

pounds but the club's almost relegated

29:04

last season and looks like it'll

29:06

get fine for break it or it might get fine

29:08

for breaking football finance rules.

29:10

Has something gone wrong? Yeah well

29:12

something clearly has gone wrong and you warned me about libel

29:15

in anyone before we came on air so I'll be very

29:17

careful about what I say. I mean

29:19

I love going to the match.

29:20

I love going you know whether it's with my daughter, my

29:22

sons, my brother, my dad. It's a family

29:25

thing but I do worry that the solo football

29:27

has been stripped out and it does

29:29

leave behind you know I mean the team that's got the most

29:31

money is the team most likely to win the premiership.

29:34

I mean I'm not going to predict you

29:36

know the final standards this season but I reckon City

29:38

will be somewhere near the top. And you've mentioned family

29:40

a lot as we've discussed.

29:43

This is your first TUC

29:45

Congress as general secretary. It is in your

29:47

home city. Are the family going to be there?

29:50

Yeah I think they will. They'll

29:52

all be there I think. Will that

29:54

be a demotional moment? Yeah I think

29:57

so. I mean it was

29:59

When I got first appointed to the job, the

30:03

family had got my granddad, who had

30:05

worked in English electrical, his life when he

30:07

retired, they gave him a Roberts radio

30:09

and they gave him a gold watch. And the

30:12

family, that watch had been in a drawer for a

30:14

decade probably, and the family got the watch out and got

30:17

it working again and had it inscribed to, you know, your

30:20

granddad Joe would have been proud. And I said,

30:22

I'm so proud of my family and that sort of people

30:24

who've worked hard, played hard, looked

30:27

after each other, looked after the people around them.

30:29

And so it will be an emotional moment, but, you

30:31

know, I mean, being TV general secretary, you know,

30:34

proud moment, humbling moments and

30:37

a scary moment as well, to be frank. You're

30:39

going to sing. You

30:42

do have another life as

30:44

a sing, singer songwriter. I'm not going to sing unless

30:46

we need to clear the hall. People

30:48

like you is one of your tracks. Yeah,

30:51

yeah. It's got a front

30:53

cover with,

30:55

do we still have front covers in the era of tracks?

30:57

Yeah, on Spotify. It does, on Spotify. It's

30:59

got an image of the Bullending

31:02

Club that Boris Johnson was in. Do you remember

31:04

the chorus? I'm

31:06

sure you're going to remind me of the chorus. So

31:09

that people like you don't get to do what I

31:11

do, they get to do what I say. Yeah, that was inspired

31:14

by Boris's party enduring lockdown.

31:17

I have to say, I'm not going to worry the Spotify

31:19

charts with my musical contributions,

31:21

but, you know, some people play golf to

31:24

relax. I don't know why.

31:25

Some people go walking. Some

31:27

people drink themselves. You know, silly. I

31:30

pick up the guitar and knock out the odd tune. Knock

31:32

out some lyrics, too. I'm really struck by this. Only

31:34

one of us can claim to be free. Is

31:37

how that you know these lyrics. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Go

31:40

on, how does it go? Because my daddy's granddaddy's

31:42

granddaddy's helped Britannia rule the land and the sea.

31:44

And on and on. But, you

31:46

know, oh, come on, Nick. Just

31:50

finally,

31:51

that seems to me to tell me quite

31:53

a lot that you, the grandson

31:56

of two migrants, looking

31:59

at someone like Boris. Boris Johnson,

32:01

whose daddy's granddaddy's granddaddy,

32:03

in your words, helped the land and the sea. Yeah.

32:07

You're trying to change the power relationship. Of course I am. I

32:09

mean, that's what trade unions are about. I mean, it's a

32:11

bring together working people collectively and

32:14

reshape the balance of power in workplaces

32:17

and beyond. And I'll never apologize for that

32:19

because at the end of the day, I think the

32:21

people that we stand up for, that we represent, they

32:23

need that voice. And that's what unions are

32:26

all about. And, you know, funnily enough, some

32:28

of them will vote for different political parties. Some of

32:30

them will hold different political views. I want to make sure their

32:32

voice is heard by politicians, whoever they are.

32:34

Paul Novak, General Secretary of the TUC.

32:37

Thanks for joining me on Political Thinking. Thank you.

32:40

Time and again on Political Thinking,

32:42

Liverpool, the politics of Liverpool

32:45

have shaped the people who

32:47

are our leaders in public life. Not

32:50

just Paul Novak, but

32:53

of course, Gillian Keegan, the Education Secretary,

32:56

who had a sense sums up what

32:58

for many Liverpool politics

33:01

is all about.

33:02

Straight talking, no nonsense,

33:05

but essentially pragmatic. The

33:08

problem comes when you say what you really

33:10

mean on microphone

33:13

instead of reserving it for

33:15

off microphone. So

33:18

after a long day of interviews, Gillian

33:20

Keegan said when the camera was

33:23

taking what we call in the business a two shot,

33:26

an image of the reporter. Does anyone

33:28

ever say, you know what, you've done a

33:30

effing good job because everyone else has

33:32

sat on their arse and done nothing? No

33:35

signs of that? No.

33:38

That revealed what she was really

33:40

thinking and reminded

33:42

those of us with very long memories

33:45

of the rage of John Major

33:47

that was revealed at the end of an interview

33:50

he did with Michael Brunson

33:52

of ITN, who asked

33:55

him, yes, when they were filming

33:57

that two shot, why he didn't sack

33:59

someone.

33:59

of the people in his cabinet who

34:02

were causing so much trouble

34:04

on Europe. Major

34:06

replied something to the effect. What?

34:09

And have four more of the bastards out

34:12

there causing trouble?

34:14

Wouldn't it be illuminating if

34:16

we could all share more

34:18

of those off the record moments? The

34:21

point of these conversations, of course, is

34:24

to try and get a few more of them on

34:27

the record, which is what I'll be trying to

34:29

do with Theresa May when

34:31

she's my guest on the next edition

34:33

of Political Thinking.

34:35

Thanks for listening. The producer is Dan

34:37

Kramer, the editor Jonathan Brunert

34:40

and the studio manager Andy Mills.

34:43

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