0:00

From Kerkow media. So what are you going

0:02

to do about it?

0:04

You know, we have a habit of consuming

0:06

all things, news and politics through

0:08

the filter of our own opinion. But

0:11

sometimes new situations

0:13

arise or sometimes we

0:15

listen to both sides of a complicated issue

0:17

and we learn something different. Or sometimes

0:20

if we're willing to give it some thought, we

0:22

may even find that we've changed

0:24

our minds. Our guest today

0:27

served as the chairman of the Republican

0:29

National Committee and some

0:31

of his views may surprise you. So stick

0:33

around. This is politics. Meet

0:35

me in the middle. I'm Bill Kurtis. Once

0:39

again, my co-host is Jane Albrecht

0:42

as an international trade attorney. She fought

0:44

for U.S. economic and business interests

0:46

to high level government officials in many

0:49

countries.

0:49

She's a member

0:50

of the U.S. Supreme

0:51

Court bar and she's also been

0:52

involved with several U.S. presidential

0:55

campaigns.

0:55

Welcome, Jane. Thanks. Always nice to be here

0:57

and welcome, Michael.

0:59

Michael Steele is an American conservative

1:01

political commentator and attorney and

1:03

a former Republican Party politician.

1:06

He served as the seventh lieutenant

1:08

governor of Maryland. By the way, he was

1:10

the first African-American elected to

1:12

any statewide office in Maryland. He's

1:14

also served as chairperson of the Republican

1:17

National Committee. And he was the first African-American

1:20

to serve in that capacity as well.

1:21

You've seen him

1:22

on CNN and MSNBC,

1:24

FOX and

1:25

frankly, everywhere,

1:26

as he's often in the news outlets

1:28

for his perspectives. Back in 20/20,

1:31

like some other lifelong Republicans, he

1:33

formally endorsed Joe Biden for the

1:35

presidency. Michael, thank

1:37

you for joining us today. This is exciting.

1:39

Thank you. It's good to be here. Absolutely.

1:42

Michael, you've said that you're still a Republican.

1:45

Does that hold true today

1:46

as we speak? Yeah, still

1:48

does. Haters will hate and

1:49

God bless them.

1:50

But I've been in this a lot longer than a

1:52

lot of the haters who just showed up. And

1:54

for me, it's tough. I'm not I don't want to

1:56

play it off. And, you know, I turn

1:59

a blind eye to some of the horrendously

2:01

racist and xenophobic

2:03

and, quite

2:04

frankly, ugly behavior

2:06

of some of the members of my party.

2:08

But like any good person,

2:10

parent

2:11

leader, you try to

2:13

correct bad behavior. And

2:15

so far, at least now, I welcome

2:17

standing in that breach to talk about

2:19

the ideas and the

2:21

ideals of a once proud party

2:24

that though many may have

2:26

disagreed with some of our

2:28

policy prescriptions, they

2:31

they did not view us through the very narrow

2:33

and ugly lenses that we portray ourselves

2:35

today. And it's important

2:37

to understand why that is why that

2:40

lens has sort of been

2:41

created as a look for the party. And

2:44

those of us inside have seen this

2:46

coming for quite some time. I think it's still,

2:48

at least right now, Bill, worth standing

2:51

in the breach to try to correct it

2:53

before we get into the whole scenario of where

2:55

the party is and where it's going. I think I'd like

2:57

to come in the side door, if you don't mind. And sure,

2:59

for the sake of this question,

3:02

congratulations, Michael. You are

3:04

again, the chairman of the Republican Party.

3:07

So I'm not asking you here what

3:09

you or the party won't be any more right

3:12

now. We'll get to that later. What are

3:14

the specific steps that you will now take

3:16

to make it your party again?

3:18

Well, that's that's a tough question

3:20

to answer, because that

3:22

answer requires a commitment

3:25

not just from someone from

3:27

one person, but an entire

3:29

group of people. We all have to be on the same

3:32

mind and same page about what

3:34

the party is and what it isn't. So

3:36

while I may try to, as I

3:38

did when I was national chairman, move

3:40

the party to embrace not just his

3:42

historic past, but

3:45

what I think would be an important and a historic

3:47

future that most

3:49

closely resemble the emerging

3:51

diversity of this great

3:54

experiment we call America. You've

3:56

got to have buy into that. People have got to

3:58

believe and want that to be a part

4:00

of their own journey, their

4:02

own story, as I said, to

4:04

chairman of the state parties in the National

4:07

Committee, men and women who

4:08

work with them. We know them

4:10

affectionately as the one hundred and sixty eight members who

4:12

make up the RNC. That I'm

4:14

not a Pied Piper, no chairman

4:16

is a Pied Piper. What I try to do

4:18

is give guidance and direction, give

4:20

vision and purpose, elevate

4:22

our principles and ideas. But

4:24

it matters what you do on the ground.

4:27

And if you're not down with expanding

4:30

the party's influence and base

4:32

among a growing, diverse

4:34

population of voters, it won't

4:37

happen no matter what I preach.

4:39

Are you saying, Michael, that you think it's kind

4:41

of beyond help or can you,

4:43

as a leader of the party, make

4:45

some moves that are going to set it in the right

4:47

direction?

4:48

Yeah, I think it's not beyond help

4:51

at this point. You've got to have leaders

4:53

who are willing to state the case and make

4:55

the case in front of the

4:58

party as a whole and and

5:01

give them their charge that you'll either pick

5:03

up that charge and agree. Yes,

5:05

we like an expanding,

5:07

diverse base of African-Americans, Hispanics,

5:10

gay and lesbian Americans, etc.,

5:13

or we don't. We want to have

5:15

a more isolated, insulated base

5:18

of white segregationist Republican

5:20

men. So you tell me which way

5:22

you want to go. And that would tell

5:24

me whether or not the party is prepared

5:26

to move into its future. Look, at the end of

5:29

the day, Bill, if you don't want

5:31

help, you won't get helped.

5:34

If you don't change your behavior,

5:36

then you will continue to do bad.

5:38

Things or behave in a way

5:41

that does not help you, so, you

5:43

know, when you have people inside the party

5:46

who are doubling down and coming out of the 20

5:48

20 election and certainly coming on

5:51

after January six, saying that this

5:53

is Trump's party, everybody get used to

5:55

it. Well, we know what Trump and Trump

5:57

ism has meant and what it has done.

5:59

So if you're telling me that's who we are,

6:02

then, OK, you've now drawn a line that I'm

6:04

willing to fight for or fight over.

6:06

I may or may not win that battle, but

6:09

I just don't walk away. I've been doing this

6:11

for far too long, just to walk away from stupid

6:13

that's standing in front of me. So

6:16

my thing is, let's push back against

6:19

stupid the you know, the

6:21

Idiocracy that is now

6:23

the leadership of the GOP in

6:25

many respects, that blindly

6:28

follows a man who is neither a conservative

6:30

nor Republican who is

6:33

devoid of any values set

6:35

or principles that anyone

6:37

would want to impart to their own children,

6:39

let alone a nation, and see where we

6:41

are.

6:42

Michael, this is admirable, but

6:44

you act

6:45

like the Republican Party is an innocent

6:47

victim to all this. In fact,

6:49

they made a pact with the devil back

6:52

when they adopted the Southern Strategy.

6:54

Sure.

6:54

It's really not gone away.

6:57

Well, look, it's not just a Southern

6:59

strategy, but it's also, you

7:01

know, it's

7:03

the same pack that the Democrats made.

7:07

So, no, it's not the same pack that

7:09

the Democrats may yell

7:11

for about one hundred years. This is the problem.

7:13

Everybody wants to put them in nice little neat partisan

7:16

buckets. And the reality of it

7:18

is this is our political system. It

7:20

is something that is a scourge on both

7:22

parties who played a role in

7:24

animating and pushing out these narratives,

7:27

particularly in the race based so

7:29

that Southern strategy came to life.

7:31

Why? Because Lyndon Johnson, who

7:34

himself was a

7:34

segregationist, decided

7:36

political expediency, history,

7:39

all of that to embrace basically

7:41

Robert Kennedy's agenda on

7:43

civil rights that was

7:44

born into the sort of voting rights

7:46

space in the civil rights space, which

7:49

you had Republicans that Johnson

7:51

leaned on to help get that through

7:53

in sixty four. In sixty five. So

7:56

so but it goes back to what

7:59

what you saw in the

8:01

nineteen sixty four presidential race

8:03

when Barry Goldwater doubled down

8:05

on segregation, because that's

8:07

the beginning of the Southern Strategy. Remember,

8:10

the South was Democratic, not Republican

8:12

at that time. The North was Republican.

8:15

I remember that shift to

8:17

the South. Becoming Republican was

8:19

part of the strategy because you could not win

8:21

a presidential race without picking

8:24

up states in the South. And so the calculation

8:27

going back to Goldwater, which is why you

8:29

had that embrace in Goldwater later on

8:31

in his life, repudiated that stand

8:33

in sixty four because he realized what

8:35

Pandora's box he had opened by

8:37

taking a cold, calculated political

8:39

strategy and applying it in

8:41

a political process with a party

8:44

that had a long standing civil

8:46

rights history, if you will, up to that

8:48

point. So the reality began

8:51

for us in that. And I and I'm not

8:53

disputing your point. I think you make a very valid

8:55

point about the poison and

8:58

the role that that poison played in the

9:00

modern day Republican Party.

9:01

But I think it's

9:02

important to understand that art in the

9:04

political calculations to it, that

9:07

Nixon took advantage of coming off of

9:09

that horrible convention speech of Goldwater

9:11

in 64 where

9:14

he embraced segregation ism.

9:16

Nixon saw the political opportunism

9:19

of that in winning his presidential

9:21

race in 68, and even

9:23

Reagan played into it when he launched his campaign

9:26

in 1980 in one of the ugliest

9:28

spots in Mississippi relative

9:30

to the question of race. So,

9:32

yeah, that narrative is there

9:34

for sure. But that does not

9:36

mean that there were people inside the party

9:38

who fought against that narrative

9:41

as well.

9:41

Michael, are the voters a reflection

9:44

of the Republican Party or is the Republican

9:46

Party a reflection of the voters?

9:48

Both. Both. It's symbiotic.

9:50

I mean, you see it on you see it on the left as much

9:53

as you see it on the right. You have

9:55

a situation where over

9:57

the last 30 or so years, the

10:00

base of of staying

10:02

with the Republican Party, the base of the party, has

10:04

become much more animated, engaged. And why

10:06

is that? Because that base has felt more

10:09

and more disenfranchised, disconnected,

10:12

which allowed that space for Donald

10:14

Trump to come in and

10:16

play the kind of narrative out that

10:18

he played out, keeping in mind

10:21

that what Donald Trump did was

10:23

effectively take his viewers

10:26

over a 14, 15 year period

10:29

and turn them into his voters. They so

10:31

he had already been talking to a lot of those

10:33

folks out there through the

10:35

various media outlets. That he

10:37

was on where he connected with

10:40

these voters, which is why the overwhelming thing you

10:42

hear about Donald Trump from a

10:44

lot of his supporters is he's a fighter.

10:47

It's not about policy. It's not about these other things.

10:49

So I think you look more broadly

10:52

at where the

10:53

line is between the voters

10:55

and the party. And it's a story

10:58

of the tail getting to

11:00

the point where it wags the dog. And

11:02

I think that's what drives a lot of it right now.

11:07

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a moment of your time.

12:01

Let's talk about today's reality, Michael, for just

12:03

a second, because it seems that any Republican

12:06

now that has a conscience

12:08

or says anything responsible

12:10

gets run out of town on a rail. Where

12:12

did these voters come from and how

12:14

did they get so radicalized?

12:16

They've been radicalized over a

12:18

long period of time. It just didn't happen

12:20

in four years or in one political

12:23

cycle. You had Tea Party before

12:25

that. You had a lot of disaffected

12:27

voters in the 2006 election,

12:29

the 2000 election. You had

12:31

a lot of frustrated voters

12:34

in the 1990s and 80s. And

12:36

so this is this is a trend line that's been in

12:39

place for a long time in a lot of those

12:41

voters check themselves out of the system.

12:44

They just stop participating, which

12:46

was the big surprise of twenty sixteen when

12:48

they finally showed back up. And

12:50

all these voters who no one was counting on,

12:52

no one was polling, no one was talking

12:55

to folks discounted because

12:57

of their God and their guns or they discounted

13:00

them because they were somehow

13:02

bad people or are not

13:05

serious or smart or anything like

13:07

that. They decided to show

13:09

up and vote. Their avatar was Donald

13:11

Trump. So you've got to look

13:13

at how these voters, particularly

13:15

on the Republican side, and I would dare say

13:18

currently on the on the Democratic side,

13:20

you have the same issue with progressives

13:23

who've emerged as a as a fighting

13:25

force inside the Democratic Party. And

13:28

if you don't learn the lesson from the GOP,

13:30

you are doomed to make the same mistakes

13:32

that were made inside the GOP with respect

13:34

to that very hard conservative

13:36

base. And so while the Republican

13:39

side is more about the culture wars,

13:41

the Democratic side is more about the economic

13:44

wars. And so those

13:46

are competing interests in this voter

13:48

narrative that I think voters

13:51

who feel isolated are

13:53

looking for avatars, looking

13:55

for voices, looking for leaders who

13:57

reflect that. That's how you come up with

13:59

the Marjorie Taylor Green. That's how

14:01

you come up with a crazy gates

14:04

down in Florida. So the realities

14:07

are where those

14:09

voters now are selecting

14:11

people who they think can

14:14

push back and attack the system that

14:16

they've come to dislike. That's

14:18

one of the animating ideas around Donald

14:20

Trump and Trump ism, is to, as

14:22

he said he would do, deconstruct the administrative

14:25

state.

14:25

Michael, I think you make really good points and

14:27

you talk about the willingness to fight,

14:29

to change, to bring the Republican

14:32

Party back to its original ideals. But

14:34

when you talk about the frustration of these voters,

14:37

part of it is that

14:38

the Republicans

14:39

courted the white working class.

14:41

Sure. But they courted them on false promises.

14:44

Their policies really benefited the

14:46

wealthy and corporations. The policies

14:49

that no government, no taxes,

14:51

no regulation, all

14:53

government is bad.

14:54

And then when the Republican Party didn't

14:56

deliver on that, their base got more frustrated.

14:58

It was the Republican base that became the Tea Party

15:01

after George W. Bush

15:03

and then the

15:03

conservative money embraced the Tea Party, and it

15:05

just kept getting spiraled into more and more

15:07

extremism. And part of that,

15:10

as you know, was promoted by lies.

15:12

The Republican Party told their base,

15:14

not just the big lie last time.

15:16

All right.

15:16

So you say all of that. So what do you what do you want to

15:18

do about it? What do you think you do about it? Let me throw

15:21

the question to you, because, you know,

15:23

the question is, what are you fighting over?

15:25

I can fight the past and yeah, I can

15:27

list the sins of the father

15:29

and the grandfather and the great grandfather, but

15:32

I don't live in that time. So the question

15:34

is, what do I do with that? I cannot

15:37

only thing I can do is acknowledge the truth of

15:39

it. When I was national chairman, I gave

15:42

a speech at the National Press Club, which I

15:44

definitely declared

15:46

that the efforts by the party to engage

15:49

in the Southern Strategy was over. The

15:51

Southern Strategy was dead. I took

15:53

that speech and went to the NAACP

15:55

and declared without hesitation

15:58

that we are broadening the base of our party

16:00

and we need you to be a part of that. Ken Mehlman

16:02

did the same thing. He was the first one to acknowledge

16:05

the sins of the father and the grandfather. So

16:07

the question then becomes in

16:10

this internal struggle inside of a

16:12

party in which people seem

16:14

to be more interested in crouching in

16:16

a corner and looking

16:18

out at the world and saying, you are

16:20

against us and therefore we are against

16:22

you, as opposed to recognizing

16:25

the lie of that. How

16:27

did you then help them out of

16:29

that corner? How do you then move

16:31

that party for. And that is

16:34

to be honest, Jane, that is the

16:36

real battle that's occurring there.

16:38

Republicans right now who are just saying, I'm

16:40

out of here. I don't want any part of

16:42

it. This thing is dead to me. I'm going to go

16:44

start a third party. I'm going to do something else.

16:47

Then there are other Republicans are like, well,

16:49

OK, that may or may not be true. We'll

16:51

see. And then there guys like myself,

16:53

like I'm already

16:55

to do something else, but I think

16:57

I want to try to terraform this first. I'm going to

17:00

try to bring. Many of those folks

17:02

who still believe in those ideas, I don't

17:04

need the majority of

17:06

Greens in my party, I

17:09

want them gone. I want

17:11

them in the wasteland of politics, on the ash

17:13

heap of history. I don't need them. We

17:15

don't need them as a country. So the question

17:17

is, how do you then pull people away from that?

17:20

Someone's got to take a stand and

17:22

someone's got to say this is worth fighting for.

17:24

And if they don't, then basically what you're saying

17:27

is, screw it, the GOP

17:29

will go the way of the Whigs and whatever shows

17:31

up next will show up next. And we'll just

17:33

live with what Democrats give us for the next

17:36

however many years. I'm not willing to settle

17:38

on that at this point.

17:40

I agree that's a huge task

17:42

to try to take this party from where

17:45

it has gotten itself and try

17:47

to basically fight for the heart

17:49

and soul of the of the Republican Party. Yeah,

17:52

I think you really have to start with how human beings

17:54

change. I think you also

17:57

you have to be willing to take

17:59

an honest look at yourself

18:01

and

18:01

say, where did I

18:02

get it wrong? And then learn and grow

18:04

from that. Sure. So that starts

18:06

with the leaders of the Republican

18:08

Party as many as possible, starting to tell the

18:10

truth, not talking about confessing

18:12

of sins, but the truth about what the situation

18:15

is today. Right.

18:16

Jane, the politicians in the Republican Party

18:18

are reacting to what brings

18:21

in their voters.

18:22

That's it.

18:23

They're not

18:23

governing.

18:24

They're not governing or leaving.

18:26

They're not leading anything. They are, in fact,

18:28

politicians. So why

18:31

should they change their direction

18:33

if what they're doing is giving them

18:35

a situation where they're winning?

18:38

But I'm talking about telling the truth, I'm not talking

18:40

about confessing sense,

18:41

but you would like them to tell the truth,

18:43

but the truth didn't necessarily work,

18:45

right? The lies have worked.

18:47

If the truth doesn't win you an election. Why would

18:49

I tell it? I mean, let me take let me tell

18:51

you what the thinking is right now, Jane. Mm

18:54

hmm. The thinking inside the GOP right

18:56

now is and this is reflected by

18:58

Mitch McConnell, if you want to get a bead

19:00

on what's going on, just listen to what the man's telling

19:02

you. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So

19:05

Mitch McConnell has already calculated

19:07

and what he's saying is evidence

19:09

that suggests to him, sorry, we

19:11

get the house back next year, we'll just

19:14

hold this line. Our voters are going to

19:16

be fired up to to take back the

19:18

House next year and we'll grab

19:20

the Senate along the way. Now that the political

19:22

realities of that may be very different

19:25

a year from now than they are

19:27

presently. But that's the calculation.

19:29

And I think, Bill, you make the right point.

19:31

Where is the incentive to acknowledge

19:34

the truth? We've watched

19:36

the president in the former United States

19:39

crap all over the truth for five

19:41

years. What price to be paid for it? Oh, he got

19:43

impeached twice.

19:45

So what I'm going to take a right

19:47

turn for a second. January

19:49

six was a big day, Michael. If

19:51

the folks who broke into the Capitol on January

19:54

6th were handed the keys to the government

19:57

other than to anoint Trump back

19:59

in power, what do they want? What

20:01

would they do if they were in charge?

20:04

That's a hard question, because I don't think they

20:06

know what they would do. They could because they were they

20:08

were they were rudderless. They had a

20:10

command. They had they were on a ship with

20:13

no rudder. They had a they had a

20:15

captain of the ship, President Trump,

20:17

who was just saying this way with

20:20

no idea what what

20:22

it would look like when they got to where this

20:24

was. So outside

20:27

of wanting to to kill the vice

20:29

president and the speaker of the House, I

20:31

don't think there was much more of a plan.

20:33

There wasn't.

20:34

And so what does that mean for

20:36

Jane as a white woman? What does that

20:38

mean for me as a black man? I

20:40

would say, are you with some of these people's

20:43

are our fates would have been a

20:45

little bit suspect in

20:47

the hands of some of these people. That's

20:49

the reality. They are threatened by

20:52

the success and the power of a woman

20:54

like Jane and what she's done in her career

20:57

professionally and personally. They're threatened

20:59

by what I stand for. And what I've

21:01

done in mine is as a black man,

21:04

they see in America that never existed.

21:07

And Trump alludes to that all the time.

21:09

You don't think they're just voting their tax rate? No.

21:11

Oh, no, bill. Not not the ones that stormed

21:14

the capital. There's other people that do, but

21:16

not the ones that stormed the Capitol.

21:18

No, they're not voting tax rates

21:20

now.

21:20

Do they believe the election was really stolen?

21:23

Yes.

21:24

Yes, they do. They were told

21:26

that by a guy six months before he

21:28

was not elected. Correct.

21:31

He said if I lose, it's because it's

21:33

it's a fraud.

21:35

And so that tells you

21:37

that they were more invested in him than they were the

21:39

country. And that should be scary to all

21:41

of us. And a lesson to all of us. Right.

21:44

I think a lot of what is

21:46

going on in America right now is based

21:48

on a lot of leaders lying

21:50

and a lot of media lies going on.

21:52

And we won't talk about which stations do it in

21:54

which stations don't. Truth is powerful.

21:57

The truth is powerful.

21:58

Speaking about the lies, let's talk about some

22:00

of the things that are going on right now, like the fundraising.

22:03

I know, Michael, you've heard about how the Republicans

22:06

have had to return something like 120

22:08

million dollars after

22:09

tricking their own base with

22:11

a hidden opt out that made their contributions

22:14

auto repeat monthly. It's like

22:16

thank you for your support. And,

22:19

you know, I'm not going to say what it

22:21

really is.

22:22

It's stupid. The grift is

22:24

amazing.

22:26

Yeah. And that's what

22:27

the party is becoming. This goes back to

22:29

the 2000 election. But go ahead.

22:31

It's just I don't understand

22:33

how this group of people can be so

22:35

forgiving. You know, a tablespoon

22:37

of bleach will keep covid away. It's

22:40

like there is no end to

22:42

their tolerance for how

22:44

much they can get screwed by the party

22:46

that they're voting into power.

22:48

They don't see it that way. You do. You're

22:50

not looking at this through their lens. You

22:52

have your belief system in the

22:54

way you've approached this. You've not

22:57

walked in their shoes. You've not spent time

22:59

in a conversation with them. When

23:01

I have and this is what triggered

23:03

for me the moment.

23:06

And I knew at this point in

23:07

twenty sixteen,

23:09

early twenty sixteen that

23:11

Donald Trump was going to win the election. I'm

23:14

watching a focus group and

23:16

this young mother of two divorced

23:19

from New Hampshire, I believe

23:21

she was when asked what

23:24

she liked about Donald Trump, she

23:27

said, well, he's just like me. And

23:29

I sat there and I went, Oh, I need

23:31

to peel that onion back. Yeah,

23:34

I need to understand that because you

23:36

need to tell me. This woman, this

23:40

blue collar woman raising two

23:42

kids on her own, looks

23:44

at someone like Donald Trump and says he's

23:46

just like me, is not like, oh,

23:48

I just like him

23:49

or he makes me

23:50

feel good. She said he's just

23:53

like me. And I'm like,

23:55

OK, there's something going

23:57

on out here. So, Bill,

24:00

you've got to you've got to understand

24:02

how people look at this

24:05

and why they look at this and why

24:07

they still look at Trump the way they do, why

24:09

all those people were willing to go

24:12

and commit insurrection in

24:14

his name and then come out

24:16

of the other again. Oh, no, no. Most

24:18

of the people there, they were killed. They were kuhnen.

24:21

They were antifa. Oh,

24:24

you mean your buddy who drove across the country

24:27

with you in your pickup truck, those

24:29

antifa you drove with an empty fat guy all

24:31

that way from from Mississippi or from

24:33

Missouri or North Dakota. And

24:36

but they're willing to rewrite the

24:38

narrative to protect what they perceive

24:40

as the important interest they have at the moment.

24:43

And that's their investment in everything that

24:45

Donald Trump has said.

24:49

On medicine, we're still practicing

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join Dr. Stephen Tayback and Bill Kurtis

24:54

for real conversations with the medical

24:56

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produced by Kerkow media.

25:08

Welcome back, Michael, you came out in 2020

25:11

in support of Biden and Harris. How

25:14

are they doing in their administration so far?

25:16

I think they're doing amazingly

25:18

well. And to be honest, I

25:21

disagree with the president's decision on XL

25:23

pipeline. I thought that was a mistake

25:25

because of the impact they would have on

25:27

on the markets and jobs especially.

25:30

But that's OK. That's a policy disagreement. I

25:32

knew that I even told the president

25:34

during this campaign that I would disagree with him

25:36

on these things and I would be vocal

25:39

about that when necessary. And

25:41

he was fine with that. And so I think

25:44

when I step back and I look at what he's done

25:47

and the way he's doing it, I have to give

25:49

him the same approval

25:51

and applause that the American people are giving.

25:54

He has stepped into the breach,

25:56

turned around the narrative on COGAT, turned

25:59

around the narrative on the economy, turned

26:01

around the narrative on. Now, as

26:03

we move into the discussion on infrastructure,

26:05

on job creation, winning

26:08

the support of the American people by being

26:10

transparent, I think very much to

26:12

to Jane's earlier points about

26:14

honesty, being honest, being

26:17

vulnerable and willing to say,

26:19

yeah, you know, we were caught flat footed

26:22

at the border. While I appreciate that honesty.

26:24

The next thing is now you've got to step up the game

26:26

and come up with a policy to

26:29

address the crisis that is brewing

26:31

there. Mm hmm. But I

26:33

think the American people, at least at this

26:35

point in the remaining days

26:37

left leading up to his first 100

26:39

days, are willing to give him

26:41

the runway to do that. And

26:43

I think that's a particularly after what

26:46

we've gone through, Bill, over

26:47

the last four years,

26:49

five years. I think that's a good

26:51

thing. I think it's a healthy thing for both

26:53

his administration and the country.

26:55

So let's talk about a couple of these policies.

26:57

And I'd like to to start with

27:00

the whole H.R. one discussion

27:02

in Washington.

27:03

Right.

27:04

It does appear that the Republicans

27:06

philosophy is do whatever

27:09

you can to win voters, suppress

27:12

fine gerrymander, change

27:14

the look and feel of the local voters

27:17

so that you can win. Fine. Lie

27:19

fine. The Biden administration

27:21

is butting up against that philosophy.

27:24

So let's first talk about in

27:27

this Congress, especially with the

27:29

Senate, in the condition that it's in with

27:31

the filibuster still alive, how

27:33

do you navigate from here to,

27:35

you know, maybe getting H.R.

27:37

one passed, making sure

27:38

that the voter has a say as opposed

27:40

to they have no way to vote under the circumstances?

27:43

Yeah. So H.R. one is more

27:45

than just voting no. And that's the problem with H.R.

27:47

one. If I were the leadership,

27:50

what I would do at this point

27:52

is I would pull the voting provisions out

27:55

as a standalone and put

27:57

that package before the Congress.

27:59

Now, you put the Republicans in

28:01

a spot because it's easy for

28:03

me to go back and criticize H.R.

28:05

one by saying it does all

28:08

these other things that we can't afford

28:10

and it has nothing to do with voting.

28:12

You know, the environmental

28:15

provisions

28:15

in there, all the

28:17

sort of Christmas tree stuff that, you know, we

28:19

tend to do as as a Democratic

28:21

member of the House said, yeah, the problem

28:24

with anything that's that's labeled

28:26

H.R. one is that it

28:28

just becomes a stalking

28:30

horse for people to attack and

28:32

because it's loaded up with everything.

28:34

What about gerrymandering and campaign

28:36

finance?

28:37

How do you think the Democrats control the House of Representatives?

28:40

That's been a part of the national platform

28:42

for a long

28:43

time,

28:43

but at least the Democrats are willing to at least

28:45

reform it now. Yeah, and that's fine.

28:48

Then put it in a separate bill.

28:50

You think you could get it passed? Probably

28:52

not. Why?

28:54

Well, the same reason you can't get responsible

28:56

gun legislation passed.

28:57

Where is the will for the will

28:59

with the voters there? But the will with

29:01

the politicians that are supported by the NRA

29:04

is not. And who

29:05

do the voters

29:05

vote for? You think that

29:07

the politicians right now on gun rules

29:09

are reflecting the voters?

29:12

Let me ask you this

29:12

one with Sandy Hook. When did when do

29:14

we watch twenty six little babies get

29:16

shot up in their classrooms? What year was that

29:18

and how many elections have we had since then?

29:20

And this is a 90 percent issue with the American

29:23

people.

29:23

It becomes a chicken and egg because to the extent

29:26

you have gerrymandered districts.

29:27

No, it doesn't. It does.

29:29

So what's the answer to that?

29:30

Might you vote

29:31

them out

29:32

if it's harder with gerrymandered districts?

29:35

And I'm not talking about let's not talk about

29:37

the past, as you say. Let's talk about how do you fix it today?

29:40

Actually, you know what, Jane? He's right.

29:42

You have

29:42

said elections

29:43

have consequences. This is one of

29:45

the consequences.

29:47

Yes, I understand that.

29:48

Whether the gerrymandered or not. Ninety

29:50

seven percent of the members of Congress

29:53

get re-elected, that's Democrats

29:55

and Republicans. So at

29:57

the end of the day, if these issues

29:59

are that important to us as citizens,

30:02

as voters, why do we keep electing

30:04

individuals who don't support us on

30:06

those? The issues we keep reelecting

30:09

them, and irrespective you're

30:11

now into the second gerrymandering,

30:13

the second redistricting period,

30:16

we're in twenty twenty that occurred

30:18

during the period twenty ten to twenty twenty.

30:20

So you can change that.

30:22

I know that firsthand because I live in a state

30:24

where I'm outnumbered two to one by Democrats.

30:27

All right. But I fought to change the system

30:29

in my state to give to give single

30:31

member districts to black voters who

30:33

are being represented by white politicians

30:36

and to give Republicans a little bit more

30:38

opportunity to compete. I live in

30:41

a county of eight hundred

30:43

thousand people in which they're only registered.

30:45

Fifty some thousand Republicans.

30:48

So don't talk to me about the impact

30:50

of gerrymandering. I know that firsthand.

30:52

And I'm not talking about gerrymandering from a party

30:54

perspective. I'm just talking about in general. There

30:56

are better ways of doing it.

30:57

But my point is the people support

31:00

it as much as they complain

31:02

about it, they still support it. And

31:04

so you can't tell me that just

31:06

because a district is gerrymandered

31:08

a certain way that you have to keep voting

31:10

for the same people who keep that

31:12

system in place. Why not vote

31:15

for the guy or gal who's running against it?

31:17

Why not vote for the person who's

31:19

coming out fresh out of the gate as opposed to the guy

31:21

who's been a part of the problem for 30 years?

31:24

Michael, I just want to ask you

31:25

one more question. Yes, sir.

31:27

Tell us something we don't know that

31:30

can give us hope that

31:32

the Republican Party can

31:34

get back to governance, get away

31:36

from politics and actually

31:39

care about the American people

31:41

are processed in our lives.

31:43

I can't tell you that because I don't

31:46

know that. And that's what I'm still trying to discover

31:48

if that light is even there. I'm

31:50

just being honest. I think everybody wants

31:52

very quick, easy solutions to

31:54

an intractable, difficult problem that

31:57

has been in the making. As Jane first

31:59

noted in our conversation going

32:02

back to the 1960s. And I

32:04

just don't think you can just unwrap

32:06

that and

32:07

undo the devastating

32:09

impact from that in a short

32:11

time. It's going to take a leadership

32:14

that has not emerged. I was heartened

32:17

and hopeful with the likes of Liz

32:19

Cheney doing what she did and Adam

32:21

Kinzinger and others, you know, those

32:23

10 or so who who kind of stood

32:25

their ground and who are now paying a political price

32:27

for it. But we need more.

32:29

So, Michael, what's your place in this going forward

32:31

to make as much annoying noise as

32:33

I can? People ask me why I haven't left the Republican

32:36

Party. I said because it pisses them off.

32:38

The longer I stay in, that's

32:42

where I am today. In six months,

32:44

we may be having a very different conversation

32:46

if I see that light my coming on.

32:48

How can people follow you?

32:49

Well, you can follow me on Twitter at Michael Steele.

32:52

Very easy. Check out my podcast,

32:54

the Michael Steele podcast. You

32:56

know, where we get your podcast there. I will

32:58

be. And if you want to, you know,

33:00

do a little deeper dive, you can go visit

33:02

my website. Michael Steele Network dot

33:04

com.

33:05

That's it. Oh, this was great.

33:07

Yeah, I really enjoyed the

33:09

conversation. I love the push. The pull.

33:12

It's good to engage. And I wish

33:14

as a country we did more of this with

33:16

a sense of good nature and really

33:19

with a sense of learning and hearing what the other

33:21

person has said. And I thank you

33:22

both for that. And really, we enjoyed it.

33:25

Well, that was a powerful show, and I certainly

33:27

hope Michael comes back and joins us. And Jane,

33:30

of course, thank you for joining again.

33:32

That was excellent. And to you listening,

33:34

please don't forget the hit the follow button so

33:37

you you don't have to hunt around for the next

33:39

episode of Meet Me in the Middle. And thank you to

33:41

our producer and editor, Joey Salvinia,

33:43

music for Meet Me in the Middle of a composed and performed

33:45

by Celeste Anorectic, executive producer

33:47

for this episode is Stuart Halpern. These

33:50

are complicated issues. This is why

33:52

we need to have a discussion like this

33:55

in the middle. See you next week, everybody.

34:02

From Kerkow media media

34:05

for your mind.