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1:42

Hello and welcome to an exciting

1:44

episode of Power Outage. War Room

1:46

with guest host Paul Begala and

1:49

I am L Hi James Will

1:51

be back next week with exciting

1:53

story Thursday to this week or

1:55

guess Is President and Professor emeritus

1:58

at U C Berkeley School. Mark

2:00

Yudof the remember We love taking your

2:03

question sir right into Politics, War, Rome,

2:05

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remind them to subscribe on Apple podcasts.

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Spotify or wherever you get your

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project. Charges. My hello

2:35

this is James Carville is doing

2:37

his water Lipman best A traveling

2:39

around busy world capitals Europe last

2:41

week Asia this week so get

2:43

a full report or global report

2:46

next week. We have as good

2:48

as a guest as James Paul

2:50

Begala since for more than thirty

2:52

years they have been joined. It's

2:54

political hip ah and so we

2:56

can thank you enough for for

2:59

join And today. Yeah,

3:01

I actually don't. you als a great honor.

3:03

I love this podcast. it's been forty years

3:05

it's afford is your car owner been out

3:07

together and of I always tell people being

3:10

James Carville partner do but I'd been tempted

3:12

Essence Feet and I'm sure they're very nice

3:14

but they get overshadowed by more prominent features

3:16

that has been my lot in life for

3:18

all of my adult life and I I

3:21

I'd gladly well as As and in Kabul.

3:23

shut up by said more than thirty cause

3:25

I thought we want to forget the first

3:27

one is to that she might have lost

3:30

so many We're. We're pretty

3:32

pathetic before and had a pretty darn good

3:34

wow win streak. Vilks on let's talk about

3:36

Donald Trump which and for see we have

3:38

to do most ways. I actually have been

3:40

following this trial more carefully than I thought

3:43

I would. I thought I watched the first

3:45

day and that said, my have the watch.

3:47

You know there's not much to watch and

3:49

see nano a similar force of our she'd

3:51

been. Not pretty good. But

3:54

I'm You know I may well be

3:56

that Michael Cohen is a terrible prosecution

3:58

witness. It may be there's a hung

4:00

jury. They complain. the Manhattan is eighty

4:03

seven percent democratic. Okay, twelve percent non

4:05

democratic. Only takes one is your Ah,

4:07

so I looked for happen I'm from

4:09

and pretend that I do One thing

4:12

as to which is abundantly clear. Most

4:14

Daniels and Miss Mcdougall, both of whom

4:16

claimed to have a sexual relationship with

4:18

Donald Trump or paid off shortly before

4:20

the two thousand and sixteen election after

4:23

the Access Hollywood say came out when

4:25

he bragged about sexually abusing women, there

4:27

is no doubt they were paid off.

4:30

Because they thought it would hurt the campaign

4:32

if it came out. That is seems to

4:34

me as clear cut from the witnesses be

4:36

for it. So far there is no doubt

4:39

that Trump cook the books to make it

4:41

appear that was illegal. Spent pure and simple.

4:43

A doesn't mean he's gonna be a judge

4:45

jury. Ah, I don't know what will happen

4:48

there, but but at least those two things

4:50

I think arm abundantly clear that thought I

4:52

was in many ways more focused on the

4:54

interview. He gave time as a present you

4:57

he know. But it was all and Trump's

4:59

worse and. He tells you he lays out

5:01

exactly what a second term would be says

5:03

is there are no, I'm going to be

5:05

a nice guy. You probably didn't know he

5:07

was a nice guy back in the first

5:09

term, but it is I think is selling.

5:11

He's going to be an authoritarian. With

5:14

future sir bad. Bounces.

5:16

He used the military for domestic political

5:18

purposes, round up and have massive deportations,

5:21

guts the civil service. Ah, it would

5:23

be something like America has never seen,

5:25

and as I say, I don't think

5:28

it was terribly new. We know it

5:30

all along, but it's in his own

5:32

words. If it

5:35

is still. Amazing

5:37

that Mister Trump retains the

5:39

capacity. Shock isn't it? Yeah.

5:41

right? Yeah, Economic years. Eight years

5:43

since he slithered down the escalator.

5:46

and yeah I was shocked To

5:48

you Read that interview or I

5:50

will get in as he is

5:52

being transparent. About his

5:54

goals, And it it you

5:56

know. It's one thing if

5:58

you think taxes go up or

6:01

down oh north of change this

6:03

law that he's talking really about.

6:07

It ain't no way. the same ending the democracies.

6:09

We're not. Using

6:11

the the judicial system to

6:14

prosecute his critics, cracking down

6:16

on media arts, competitive incarcerating

6:18

in deporting ten or eleven

6:21

million people. I mean, it's

6:23

just. The. It

6:25

really does boggle the mind. The for me the

6:28

worst thing the for instance. As

6:31

these campuses are exploding. Desire

6:34

to okay and source. Srx

6:37

access and Seventy Ninety Two to General Washington

6:39

new the power to put down rebellions because

6:41

the colonists were still regard even after they

6:43

got their own country. So says rebellion going

6:45

on. Washington goes Congress that I need the

6:47

right to put these death and a given

6:49

that right. Over the

6:51

years that right to take want to

6:54

take Us troops and put down an

6:56

insurrection been used by a Eisenhower, Kennedy,

6:58

and Johnson to enforce. Integration.

7:01

Last used by George Hw Bush. In.

7:04

The aftermath of the L A Rights. And

7:06

I was working for Governor Bill when we

7:09

went out to the site of those rights

7:11

and my recollections. Gov Clinton endorsed by the

7:13

Bush invoking is rec centers we need in

7:15

order we need a deceased we need to

7:17

stop at the riot. This.

7:19

Is not what Trump will use it for. To. Snatch

7:21

me T I really worry. read

7:24

that article. You see a man

7:26

who wants to take military force

7:28

and use it against American citizens

7:30

And I'm I'm. Desperately Word that

7:32

he'll do that. Was

7:34

just cause because traditionally as

7:36

you say we have not

7:38

used the military for domestic

7:40

purposes. Ah, he has no

7:43

inhibitions about that. And

7:45

I think look James an eye on

7:47

I'm not quite sure where you were.

7:49

Baba James and I did not want

7:51

by Neuron. We thought it was a

7:54

big mistake. We argued rather strenuously. A

7:56

new shows you a great thought we

7:58

had and he has, but. There are

8:00

you running? He is the candidate and

8:02

I wish he hadn't. I worry some

8:04

about a second term. I will never

8:06

cast in these, your vote and my

8:08

life because if you look at the

8:10

dangers you look at, just read that

8:12

Time Magazine article. remember some other things

8:14

is very possible by will have two

8:16

or three supreme court appointments or Trump

8:18

will have two or three supreme court

8:20

appointments the next term. How would you

8:22

like to have you know some more?

8:24

Sam Only those and some more bread.

8:26

Salvador's. An. Ear

8:29

I just think it's Sam. Is

8:31

Friday night, you say? One more thing, Porkers,

8:33

You know more about this than I do

8:35

if Trump wins the Senate gone. There's.

8:38

Just no question about that. I think

8:40

it's possible old on the the Senate

8:42

uphill if Biden can win by three

8:44

or four pass. but I think the

8:46

last hope is the house. I think

8:49

there's a better chance of holding the

8:51

house, even whether Trump when. And I

8:53

hope some of these democratic donors realize

8:55

that there may not be the big

8:57

names that literati the it's for house

8:59

races, but boy their about a dozen

9:01

house races. That does they want to

9:04

be focused on heavily. I.

9:07

Think they are. I think that the

9:09

both grassroots donors super could give online

9:11

and also some of these big dollars

9:13

Iger very focused on it. And.

9:16

Sat at the Hakeem Jeffries. Yoga.

9:18

Always say is i'm you nurse or chance that we

9:20

say you don't want to be the coach who follows

9:22

allegedly. Raped. Iranian want to

9:24

follow Nick Saban your eyes and in

9:26

that came as following I think the

9:29

great speaker in American history. And

9:31

yes, he's doing a great job. Is.

9:33

Party is organized. They're focused on these

9:35

a tea house races. They only need

9:38

to pick up a small handful, mostly

9:40

New York and California. At

9:42

the I came being from New York

9:44

yes I think that's right. I think

9:47

that that if Trump wins he does

9:49

take the Senate with him and the

9:51

in and the Democrats do are under

9:53

Jeffries having a real shot at as

9:55

taking back to house and that may

9:57

turn the ice storm. I

10:00

I'd still rather have bugs problems than trump's even

10:02

though if you are trying other day and exam

10:04

with. I'd still rather have vines

10:06

problems than Trump's. Biggest

10:09

bang has come with his base Trump

10:11

god knows has no com the and

10:13

go to jail for a Trump can't

10:15

reach out to to those swing voters.

10:17

Impact has been very successful in reaching

10:19

out to independents, moderate republicans, So.

10:21

Can he get his base that? I think he can. I.

10:24

I don't like having a problem with my

10:26

base from a democrat but I think that's

10:28

of more curable problem and Trump's com. Or

10:31

so I'm still. Cautiously

10:33

optimistic about by, but I'm really bullish

10:35

on Hakeem Jeffries. Oh, you

10:38

know he's been an Emmy new, say

10:40

fabulous. I'd say what he had the

10:42

good fortune as Nancy Pelosi did to

10:45

be the minority leader first. it would

10:47

have been much higher if he had

10:49

started off as it just is. There's

10:51

all kinds of other countervailing pressures and

10:54

freshers. but ah you, You can't get

10:56

your you know you get your sea

10:58

legs if you're minority leader. And he

11:00

has been super. Ah, his timing is

11:03

perfect. Ah I said last week People,

11:05

I I can't believe all these. Columns

11:07

are and about what ship Roy going to

11:09

do a Jim Jordan gonna do on my

11:11

Johnson. The only person that matters is a

11:14

Keep Jeffers. And I'm sure he

11:16

will. He will do a skillfully like

11:18

a pick up on any that. But

11:20

let me ask you one question for

11:22

because you are such a political experts

11:24

I look at North Carolina and you

11:26

would say and a close race. Much

11:28

airline. Only one time and the last

11:30

worth eight or ten presidential elections spawns

11:33

and with Radical and I and I

11:35

would say not much else. Do you

11:37

believe in reverse coattails? Because I think

11:39

it's possible once North Carolinians learn about

11:41

their statewide candidates who are insane. I

11:43

mean they are conservative, They're crazy. One

11:46

of them wants to have a

11:48

public execution of Barack Obama Guantanamo.

11:50

Ah, is there such a thing

11:52

as reverse coattails? look

11:55

as a general matter know if i'm running

11:57

bands campaign when i spend time and money

11:59

north carolina yes Yes,

12:02

because of all of that, because it always is

12:04

for the Democrats, Lucy and the football. God bless

12:06

Barack Obama, he cared at once. But

12:08

otherwise, Bill Clinton, a pretty good politician and a

12:10

Southern candidate, cared a bunch of Southern states, couldn't

12:14

crack the code. But

12:16

I think North Carolina is following

12:18

Virginia and Georgia, a

12:20

Southern state that has become

12:22

a swing state. I would definitely go in there.

12:24

I would also take $75 million

12:28

and set it on fire in Florida, if

12:30

I'm running Biden's campaign. Biden has more money

12:32

and more time than Trump. He's

12:35

raised much more money than Jeffrey Katz, the work of his

12:37

co-chairs, the best run range I've ever seen. And

12:40

he's got time because he does not manacle to

12:42

a courtroom in Manhattan. And

12:46

I don't think Biden can win Florida. But

12:49

he might be able to knock off Rick

12:51

Scott, the vulnerable Republican senator down there, and

12:53

the Democrats have a good candidate giving him

12:55

a casual power. So

12:57

if you put money into Florida and

12:59

you're Biden, you're going to draw

13:01

Trump's money away from Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, where

13:03

the real action is. But

13:06

yes, I would definitely go campaign in addition

13:08

to spending money. I campaigned in North Carolina,

13:10

because that is the direction the

13:13

Republican Party under Trump seems to

13:15

be going toward. Even in it.

13:18

You're right. You're totally right. But Mark

13:20

Robinson and the others are, I mean,

13:22

Paul. They're beyond magga right wingers.

13:24

They are just totally crazy. And

13:27

I know North Carolina pretty well,

13:29

as you know, and they've elected

13:31

some very conservative Republicans,

13:33

but nothing like this. Nothing.

13:37

And look, we saw this happen in

13:39

Arizona. Right. You know, a

13:41

state that was incredible for the Democrats

13:43

in a presidential election. They'd occasionally, Janet

13:45

Napolitano, some others would win a governorship

13:47

there, uniquely talented. But that

13:49

was a given that Arizona would

13:52

go Republican. It was a party not only of

13:54

Barry Goldwater, but in more recently

13:57

of John McCain and

13:59

those McCain. Republicans made Arizona

14:01

really solidly red. Trump

14:04

came in and blew the whole thing up. And

14:07

now you've got a Mark

14:09

Kelly, Democratic Senator. You have

14:12

Katie Hobbs, a Democratic governor,

14:14

a Democratic attorney general. And

14:16

Republicans have allowed Trump to destroy the Republican

14:19

party in Arizona. I think they're doing the

14:21

same thing in North Carolina. Yeah,

14:23

yeah, no, I do too. One

14:25

person we haven't mentioned in this conversation is

14:28

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Now

14:30

Paul, I must say I am conflicted. James

14:32

and I have, we haven't argued over this

14:34

because one of us is very confident about

14:36

our position on this. I generally think that

14:39

RFK hurts Biden more than Trump. James

14:41

has come around to thinking he probably hurts Trump a

14:43

little bit more. I think the two arguments are kind

14:45

of simple. If you look at the polling, and

14:48

when you go from two way to a

14:50

three way and 80% of the time it

14:52

hurts Biden more. I mean, you just see

14:54

that, looking at the real clear polling. On

14:57

the other hand, I think if Robert F. Kennedy is at 11

14:59

or 12 and he goes down to

15:02

five or six or seven, which I think he probably

15:04

will, where do those,

15:06

who's he losing? And

15:08

my guess is he's

15:10

losing disenchanted Democrats and

15:13

independents who really don't wanna go Trump. And I think

15:15

if they go anywhere, they're more likely to go Biden.

15:17

So those are the two arguments. Where do you come

15:19

down? Yeah,

15:21

we mentioned that I've been partners with James

15:23

for 40 years. We talk every single day.

15:27

And we've never had an argument about money, not

15:29

in 40 years, but we often have

15:31

arguments about strategy and this is one of them. I

15:35

am convinced that Bobby Kennedy's candidacy could

15:38

put me to Trump. I'm

15:42

convinced. Even though the data are

15:44

more on Carville's side, because right now it does look

15:46

like Bobby's gonna hurt Donald Trump more. And Carville's argument

15:48

as you know is, look, if

15:50

you just wanna blow the whole thing up and

15:54

you're anti-vax and anti everything, you're much

15:56

more of a Trump type. Disagree

16:00

I think the name. Is

16:03

so cold and and it's so powerful I'm

16:05

in. L. A

16:08

Honey Fitz bodies great grandfather gets

16:10

elected to the Common Council Boston

16:12

Eating Ninety One. Can ensue.

16:14

I did not know them well suited.

16:18

I was a Jew. I was a deputy press secretary

16:20

never. Use your

16:22

for of but some hundred

16:24

and thirty three years. Kennedy

16:26

family has given everything. To

16:29

the country and the democratic time and

16:31

some and as such a deep a

16:33

finity. So. I think there are

16:35

democrats better with are democrats were boxing

16:37

skeptics. Arm or frankly

16:39

if I was black I might

16:41

be one to. given the dude

16:44

the history and obscene history of

16:46

of of Americans of. Marine.

16:49

The black men were within the in

16:51

the in the Tuskegee syphilis. So

16:54

I think there are a lot of to for

16:56

liberals who are. Anti

16:58

Vax like Bobby is. I think there are

17:00

a lotta liberals who just want the Kennedy

17:02

name and can a family just not gonna

17:05

believe. You. Know that he's

17:07

in this to Croak Biden either years I

17:09

think his mission you've had a few ways

17:11

and he fired them. but if you're a

17:13

dude basically said our job is to stop

17:16

Biden intellect from her off and he's He

17:18

does say he's spending that off, but I

17:20

think he is a heat seeking missile for

17:22

Joe Biden and his supporters. because Baggins. And

17:26

us about space is facts.

17:28

And from space is solid. Saw.

17:31

I think either it's i'm A that he

17:33

has. I think

17:35

apparently gained ballot access to Michigan. Where.

17:37

Most important swing states. Is

17:40

now claiming that he's gonna be on

17:42

in California. Ah,

17:44

George Wallace his own party, American

17:46

Independence Party in in Michigan. He

17:49

got on via the Natural Law

17:51

Party. Which. Show was the

17:53

party Transcendental Meditation. Nuts.

17:55

Are worth cancer on as generally seem to

17:57

be asked to make what that. So

18:00

I'm terribly worried. And I say I hope James

18:02

is right, but I hear that he's wrong. Well

18:06

I think this, I am

18:08

closer to your view. But by the way, I

18:10

talk to James every day since our famous

18:12

1992 confrontational phone call

18:15

on Clinton. So mine is only

18:17

32 years. And

18:20

we rarely miss it. The only

18:22

disagreement, other than sports, we do disagree on

18:24

sports. We

18:26

did disagree on Obama and Hillary in 2008. I

18:29

think you would have been on his side. But

18:33

they are rare. I

18:35

think the Kennedy family, most of the Kennedy

18:38

family is just mortified by

18:40

what Bobby's doing. It's

18:44

still a magical name. There aren't very many figures

18:46

left. I think young Joe Kennedy, even though he

18:48

lost his face, is very effective out there on

18:50

the stump. He's going to be out there

18:52

a lot. And I will predict in the fall you're going to

18:54

see Caroline Kennedy come back

18:56

from Australia and appear with

18:58

Joe Biden in several

19:01

public appearances. And I think President

19:03

Kennedy's daughter with President Biden, if

19:05

that happens, I think that

19:07

will send a message to some of the people you're talking

19:10

about. I

19:12

hope so. Caroline's

19:14

been a very successful ambassador in

19:16

Canberra and before that in Tokyo. So

19:19

I sort of hate to lose her on behalf of the United States. I'm

19:22

not saying she'll leave that job. You're allowed

19:24

to take a leave as ambassador for

19:27

a short time, I

19:29

believe. And Rahm Emanuel

19:33

wouldn't do it, but Caroline Kennedy might do it.

19:35

Or maybe she leaves. Who knows? In

19:38

any event, I'm afraid you're

19:40

more right than James here. So let's just see how

19:43

it plays out. But people

19:45

need to get the message that a

19:47

vote for Kennedy is a vote for Trump. And

19:50

I will say this, I like to criticize

19:52

my party because it's often worthy of criticism.

19:54

And Democrats have deployed Liz

19:56

Smith on this project. She's

20:01

a killer. Nobody

20:05

tougher, nobody smarter, and she has taken the point

20:07

for the Democratic Party in busting

20:10

this myth that somehow Bobby Kennedy

20:12

is a true Democrat,

20:15

Kennedy Democrat. She's

20:17

also a new mother, but

20:21

that has not taken any of the

20:23

edge off, Liz. Terrific. Hey,

20:35

you know, ladder makes life insurance

20:37

quick and easy. Well, it's

20:39

peace of mind. It's everything. You

20:42

know, I know for a fact two things are

20:44

going to happen when I die. My wife will

20:46

be cared for and Carville will hit on her

20:48

at the funeral. You look good in black, Diane.

20:54

But she will say, I'm sorry, I

20:56

don't like Louisiana guys. I stick with

20:58

Texas. But

21:02

yes, to have that peace of mind, to know that

21:04

your family will be provided for. It's

21:06

really, for me,

21:08

it's essential. You know, we

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life.com/war room. Again, ladderlife.com/war

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room. You also can

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find the link in

23:22

our show notes. Hey,

23:31

we have former head of the

23:33

whole University of California system and

23:36

chancellor of the University of

23:39

Texas and the leader of

23:41

the Academic Engagement Network which

23:43

combats anti-Semitism, particularly on college

23:45

campuses and he is an

23:48

expert on constitutional law and free

23:51

speech. Professor, we're so

23:53

pleased to have you. I

23:55

don't want to be too long on this, but

23:58

my North Star and free speech goes back to

24:00

Justice Brand. I saw almost a century ago who

24:02

said speech should only be banned if it is

24:04

intended or likely to cause Imminent

24:06

violence and I believe that should be

24:08

a lodestar not just for public places,

24:11

but for universities, too Although

24:13

it's not acceptable to shout down speakers, but

24:17

therefore campus demonstrations even if offensive

24:19

whether you agree or not Should

24:21

be protected speech However,

24:23

there are been some clear elements

24:26

of anti-semitism tolerated How do you

24:28

square all this and how are

24:30

most universities doing? Well,

24:32

you know, my position is similar To

24:36

the quotation you gave is there's no exception

24:38

for hate speech in the First Amendment. So

24:40

I start there But

24:42

you do have to remember there's perjury right?

24:45

That's not necessarily a threat of violence. There's

24:47

false and misleading Advertising

24:49

I say to my friend bugala your money or your

24:52

life He reports me to the police

24:54

and I say I was just expressing my opinion of

24:57

bugala. It is this money in his life I don't

24:59

like the SOB and you

25:02

know, so You're

25:04

taking it in it doesn't

25:06

apply to all these contexts and if you're

25:09

intimidating someone if you're threatening someone

25:12

and There's title six

25:14

which is in some tension with the

25:16

First Amendment that if

25:18

you create a hostile climate for African

25:20

American students for Jewish students

25:23

for Muslim students or whomever It

25:26

is the case that You

25:29

met the universities may be liable for that

25:32

so much of what we do in life

25:34

involves a mixture of speech and action and so

25:38

therefore if you're Roaring into

25:40

a building if you're not allowing Jews

25:43

Jewish students across the quad if

25:46

you're threatening and And

25:50

the like There are real

25:52

threats which are not constitutionally protected. This

25:54

is a whole range of Things

25:57

that involve some speech but involve a lot

25:59

of. What about the things as well? Or

26:01

that's when. I, if you are,

26:03

are entitled to address it without violating

26:06

someone's house. To summarize, it's also the

26:08

case by the way, that private universities

26:10

are not strictly bound. By.

26:12

The First Amendment. Time for

26:14

so that's it. That's another sort

26:16

of of side points Macy about

26:18

this: Although I admired their dedication,

26:20

I miss free speech. Zealot.

26:24

I'm. Just not and says my a

26:26

hostile campus climate and I'm not in

26:28

favor of occupying libraries is shouting at

26:30

people. flocking, The way and

26:32

into buildings shouting down speakers. None

26:35

of that is constitutionally protected. I

26:37

think you went to new he

26:39

to University Pennsylvania Law school. Ah

26:41

see I just you know we're

26:43

free. So higher. But yeah, I

26:46

teach a course is your alma mater

26:48

the that or school the undergraduates an

26:51

Ios I bet. long conversations with most

26:53

a really interesting collection of students. and

26:55

and and here's you know basically what

26:58

I get There are seven or a

27:00

Jewish students in the class self identifies

27:02

who say they feel threatened or would

27:04

feel threatened if they went to Columbia.

27:07

Not so much a pen which went

27:09

through which drama in the in the

27:11

fall when the university president was was

27:14

was kicked out for I think. Dubious

27:16

reasons, but they also and

27:18

there's an overwhelming consensus and.

27:21

Jewish. And non Jewish do and that

27:23

was going on in circles and they

27:25

think it's a mistake as some like

27:28

your friend Larry Summers advocates to send

27:30

in massive. Force. So

27:32

much so that Time Capsule

27:34

Eyes is the conflict there

27:36

are. They want protection from

27:38

anti semitism, they don't wanna

27:40

impede on free speech, and

27:42

they think sending in force

27:44

is using a mistake. I.

27:47

Don't know that that's really. You

27:49

know that those are all together

27:51

are irrational. Fear. I

27:53

I don't. Think. It's

27:55

irrational, you know? It I was

27:57

like to say the first time you saved from the river.

28:00

The see you get a pass. or maybe the fifth

28:02

time you get a pass but you have to look

28:04

at it from the. First. From

28:06

the perspective of the person to whom

28:08

it's addressed and how they do it,

28:11

if you told me that I was

28:13

using something that African Americans a term

28:15

that African Americans consider derogatory and threatening,

28:17

I'd stop using but instead them up

28:19

the any and of course or are.

28:22

You. Know Stomping On Stars of David. And.

28:26

Ah and and oh yeah, go back

28:29

to Poland and that one case the

28:31

said got a go back to the

28:33

gas chambers and so forth. There

28:35

are things that are are quite. A. Threatening.

28:38

At the other day I wanted to add is

28:41

is what's called a time place and manner. You

28:43

may be able to do something on the closet

28:45

you can't do in the law library you may

28:47

be able to. I'm. You

28:50

know to to him for a

28:52

sufficiently protest the war in the

28:54

Middle East even on the. Co.

28:56

Hamas side of his. Buddies

28:59

the you can't do it in every building

29:01

and you might not be able to do

29:03

it the president's office or in a in

29:06

a resident's hall where you're disturbing with people

29:08

were there. This. Time, place and

29:10

manner that. Restrictions have been

29:12

in the law for one hundred years. And

29:15

does your you know My message

29:17

today is have reasonable neutral time,

29:19

place and manner rules and enforce

29:22

them. And on that

29:24

based on. The

29:26

zebra I I don't want to sit in

29:29

the shoes of as any President Vladimir President

29:31

of anything today. But.

29:35

You. Know I think you have to be very

29:37

careful about the use of force you know some

29:39

people say cause the National Guard I don't believe

29:42

that. I I think I saw Kent

29:44

State when I was. Silver.

29:46

A student myself and I thank

29:48

you. You have to have Angeles

29:50

well as far as I can

29:52

see Columbia. The. new york police

29:54

department hands of it extremely well there were

29:56

no injuries there were arrests that was appropriate

30:00

And we'll see what happens from here. Yeah,

30:03

I agree. Is anti-Semitism

30:06

tolerated more in

30:09

universities and establishment circles

30:11

than racism or anti-gay

30:13

bigotry? I

30:15

actually think to some extent it is. You

30:18

know, my organization, the Academic

30:20

Engagement Network, works

30:23

with diversity, equity, and inclusion officers.

30:25

We've probably met with 1,000 or

30:27

1,500. I

30:29

have not given up on DEI as

30:31

some groups have. But

30:33

typically diversity, equity,

30:35

and inclusion doesn't include Jewish

30:38

people. They're viewed as privileged.

30:40

They're viewed as white. They're

30:43

overrepresented at many universities, overrepresented

30:45

in terms of the

30:48

relative share of the

30:50

American population that Jews

30:53

constitute. So I

30:55

think, you know, I tend to take a positive

30:57

view. Let's try to have

30:59

a broader umbrella when we talk about

31:02

diversity, equity, and inclusion. And

31:06

actually try to educate people as to what

31:08

is offensive to Jewish people and

31:10

as to what is viewed as anti-Semitic. Again,

31:13

not by all Jews. And

31:15

I'm not saying that at all. But

31:17

most Jews view themselves as

31:19

Zionists. They view Israel as part

31:21

of the religious and historical and

31:24

peoplehood legacy. And

31:27

a lot of the

31:29

DEI officers have just

31:31

not been educated about that. So we try

31:33

to give it a positive spin. And we've

31:35

been successful in many universities and

31:38

including Jewish people among those

31:41

that you need to be aware of whether

31:43

they feel welcome or unwelcome, threatened,

31:45

or on campus or whatever. Mark,

31:48

before I turn it over to your friend, Paul Begala,

31:51

one more question. Put on your

31:53

hat as the former chancellor of

31:55

two big university systems. And

31:57

that's the role the fat cat donors

31:59

play. Penn, this

32:01

is my view. A political

32:03

opportunist, John Huntsman, and a

32:05

private equity executive, and

32:07

big Trump donor, Mark Rowan,

32:10

professing to be experts on bigotry,

32:13

demanded the president be fired. I think she

32:15

screwed up a lot, but I don't know

32:17

what the grounds were. She certainly wasn't anti-Semitic.

32:19

But more, a larger

32:21

question, isn't that a slip most

32:23

can determine academic policy?

32:26

Well, I have to say, I'm of

32:28

two minds about it. I

32:31

don't like these, if

32:34

I may say, crusades against

32:36

sitting presidents. I like

32:42

it better when the board of

32:44

trustees and the president and the

32:46

faculty and so forth are primarily

32:49

in charge of how things are governed

32:51

on a university campus. On

32:54

the other hand, people have,

32:56

in my judgment, when you

32:58

make a gift to an organization,

33:00

if you think the March of Dimes has taken

33:02

a wrong turn, or all the good

33:05

works the Shiner Hospital does,

33:07

you for some reason think

33:09

they've gone amok somehow. I

33:12

don't, by the way. And

33:15

I think they're not entitled to your money, and

33:17

you can say that. And

33:20

you can say I'm not contributing anymore. And I

33:22

heard from a lot of, I

33:25

would say a lot, but some major donors

33:27

at the University of Pennsylvania who were just

33:29

infuriated, not the ones that you mentioned. And

33:34

so they don't have to give their

33:36

money if they don't agree with how the place is being

33:38

run and how Jewish students are being treated.

33:42

But to me, I really don't

33:47

like the calls for resignations and so forth.

33:49

But I understand them, but it's not something

33:51

I would have pressed. Well,

33:54

yeah, I certainly agree they're entitled to their

33:56

money, but I think they misrepresented what happened

33:58

there. But Paul Begallana is... More than

34:00

I do about all this or go ahead

34:02

ball take over. Well all I know was

34:04

talking to me by Mark Yudof our list

34:07

or should know It's been a mentor mine

34:09

all my adult life with my dean in

34:11

law school. The only reason I have a

34:13

law degree because of Mark when I cannot

34:15

hold that against the Emperor. yeah well, I

34:18

would. I'd like to I start fall. That's

34:20

when I have, that's that's a good question.

34:22

About six months ago of com. At

34:25

Iso of. I have Mark

34:27

I want to continued often has been

34:30

a long time. I'm. You

34:32

talked with l a bit about the

34:34

wind or trigger on on. A

34:41

Not the National Guard or I'm I'm with you

34:43

on that. It. Seems to me there's

34:45

no easy bright like I need. A lot

34:47

of critics of a man who should be

34:49

good at Columbia Blue. She was too slow.

34:52

Allow students to set up an encampment which

34:54

was. The scene

34:57

is threatening to many do students instance

34:59

built on welcome do stunts. On

35:02

the other end of my beloved in Your

35:04

Blood University of Texas. That.

35:07

He was that I know of the

35:09

county attorney's. Office.

35:14

Called. The departed Public Safety. And

35:17

arrested fifty seven people in a county

35:19

attorney's like I got nothing to prosecute

35:21

them for shifts in turn him loose

35:23

right away because she believed I think

35:25

that there was no that into no

35:27

reported physical injuries, no reported property damage,

35:30

Know for Trespassing is public street in a

35:32

public University. Where

35:35

and yet? I've why. I know from my

35:38

friends that you t quite understand the the

35:40

present there doesn't want to see an encampment

35:42

a lasting weeks and weeks and disrupting commencement

35:44

disrupted classes. Where. The happen a Columbia.

35:47

So where do you draw the line? well

35:50

i you know i don't i don't know

35:52

all the facts in texas so out of

35:54

i guess they don't want to get into

35:57

that ah i to i draw the line

35:59

when you're you're blocking entrance

36:01

or exit from the campus when

36:05

you're harassing students, when

36:08

you're holding, you know, if you held up

36:10

a sign that said African Americans should go

36:12

back to Africa, I think understandably

36:15

black students would take offense at that.

36:18

And the campus could say that this is

36:20

not the sort of campus climate we want.

36:23

And that's what I was talking to Paul

36:25

about Title VI. There is attention between

36:27

treatment expression under the First Amendment.

36:30

And the idea that

36:32

the campus administration and the university

36:34

is held responsible for the sort

36:36

of campus climate it has for

36:38

African American students and Jewish students

36:42

and so forth. And

36:45

there's no easy, but I would say

36:48

that, look,

36:50

I'm an expert on demonstrations. I

36:52

was president of the University of

36:54

California. I had demonstrations everywhere. I

36:57

had one campus that I never did visit because

36:59

they insisted they didn't have enough cops to protect

37:01

me. This

37:03

is not just casual stuff.

37:06

This is designed and

37:08

intended to intimidate, not in all cases,

37:11

but in many cases. And

37:13

it has that effect on student life

37:15

on the campus. I

37:18

think occupying the library at Harvard

37:21

and sitting in there

37:23

and making a statement is

37:25

wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. It

37:27

might've been okay out in the

37:29

Harvard yard, but it wasn't okay

37:31

inside a library. So

37:34

I hate to use the word, but

37:36

I got Liz McGill into a lot of

37:38

trouble, but it is something that requires

37:41

some understanding of the context in which

37:43

it is uttered. Just

37:46

like perjury is not forgiven because

37:48

you have free speech rights, the

37:50

context doesn't protect that speech. If

37:52

indeed you have lied under oath. So

37:56

that's my take on it. I

38:00

tried not to second-guess any specific campus.

38:02

I mean, UCLA had a, I've been

38:04

watching CNN all day, which

38:06

I rarely do when you're not on,

38:08

Paul. And I think you

38:11

have a chief

38:13

intelligence advisor or

38:16

something like that. And he,

38:18

I thought, was very thoughtful about what

38:21

was happening at Columbia, why

38:23

the police waited to go on to the campus,

38:25

why they want the collaboration of the administration and

38:27

all that made a lot of sense to me.

38:32

But you have to painfully

38:35

reconstruct these events to see ultimately whether,

38:37

in my case, I would have made

38:39

the same decision. Well,

38:42

I think you're right. You can't win for losing

38:45

when you're in the position that you used to

38:47

be in or that the president university of Texas

38:49

or Columbia or UCLA, because you're either going to

38:51

be too late or too early in

38:54

law enforcement. You

38:56

can't possibly win. And my heart does go

38:58

after those administrators. It does

39:00

not go after the students. I'm

39:03

sorry, these are the most privileged people in America.

39:06

And some of them are so effing ignorant.

39:08

Ignorant, go to one of those rallies and ask

39:11

them which river and what sea?

39:13

Yeah, someone did that. Someone

39:15

did that, wrote an editorial, wrote an

39:18

op-ed in Wall Street Journal about it. Yeah,

39:20

they don't know which river or which sea. They

39:22

talk about the occupation of Gaza,

39:24

but Israel

39:27

ceded Gaza back to them

39:29

and they voted. What did

39:31

they do? They voted in Hamas. And you

39:33

know what? There's not been an election since.

39:37

Same thing is true, by the way, in the West Bank. Abbas

39:39

has a 15 year or so four year term. I

39:44

mean, it's just woeful

39:46

ignorance. And I hate to say,

39:48

Paul, you may disagree with this,

39:50

but there's

39:52

sort of a progressive truth.

39:54

You're anti-colonialist, which is fine with

39:56

me, and you're anti-privileged.

40:00

and so forth. But

40:03

it sweeps in and it creates

40:05

allies which are extraordinary. I mean,

40:07

would you rather be gay in Israel

40:09

or rather be gay in Gaza or

40:12

in Syria? It's

40:14

just not sensible. It's

40:19

sort of a blind allegiance and a

40:21

way of just dividing

40:23

the world into the oppressed and the

40:25

oppressors and Israel's on the wrong side

40:27

of the line. And by implication, Jews,

40:29

and they're not always too steadfast about

40:32

distinguishing between Zionists and

40:34

Jews. While most Jews are Zionists,

40:38

they're not all Zionists. In fact, some of

40:40

them are having, you know, I

40:42

suspect not many, but have participated

40:44

in protests. The other thing

40:46

I want to add, Paul, if I just may, big

40:48

cities are a big problem. I

40:51

don't know whether the mayor of New York

40:53

is right about people

40:55

coming in from the outside to campus,

40:58

you know, not professors, not students, not

41:01

staff, agitating about

41:03

these things. But when you're in New York City

41:05

and when you're in Boston and Philadelphia, these

41:08

are big metropolitan areas. And

41:12

it's undoubtedly the case that a

41:16

significant measure of your problems are caused by

41:18

people who are not members of your community.

41:20

I think that's a very good point, Mark,

41:22

and I probably shouldn't have just slammed them

41:24

all as students and ignorant. But

41:27

I am struck as somebody, as you know,

41:29

I'm very pro-Israel and very progressive,

41:31

very liberal. Why

41:34

the pro-Israel community, including myself, haven't made the

41:36

case effectively that the liberal position is to

41:38

be pro-Israel. You pointed out the Tel Aviv

41:40

had a quarter of a million people at

41:42

a gay pride parade. The

41:44

country had nine million, okay, they had a quarter of a million

41:46

people in their gay pride parade. In

41:48

Gaza, it's a crime to be gay. There

41:52

was a guy of

41:54

Mahmoud-ish, I can't remember his name, I'm

41:57

sorry, I'm getting it wrong, but he was a

41:59

Hamas military commander. and gay shot

42:01

three times in the chest by his own men for

42:04

the crime of being gay and after the crime

42:06

of being a terrorist, what's the crime of being gay?

42:10

Women in Gaza have no marital property rights.

42:14

The husband owns

42:16

everything. Journalists are

42:18

routinely beaten. If

42:21

you had a protest in Gaza against the government

42:23

the way we have every day in America, you

42:26

would be beaten. Torture was

42:28

set up, that Al-Shifa hospital became famous. There

42:30

was unused parts of the hospital that

42:32

Hamas had set up as torture chambers. How

42:34

any liberal can get behind this and I think

42:37

it is though based on ignorance. And

42:39

I say that because my

42:41

wife, Nyan, she is on the scholarship

42:43

committee and one of the

42:46

kids who got the scholarship is a Jewish

42:48

young man from New York named Mustafs and

42:50

he's got a... He's a scientist. He got

42:52

his early flag on his backpack or something.

42:55

And she asked him how that's going and he said, Well,

42:58

five kids came up just before the

43:00

current crisis. Five kids came up

43:02

to me and started giving me static about Gaza

43:05

and I stopped and talked to them.

43:08

This kid is way smarter than I am because I would have

43:10

harangued them and yelled at them and told them they were stupid.

43:13

He said, Are you familiar with Hamas

43:15

and who they are and what they do? And they said, No.

43:17

He said, Just take a minute. Look up Wikipedia,

43:20

whatever you want. And

43:22

two of the five right away said, Oh my God, I can't get

43:24

behind this group. Oh my God. They had

43:26

no idea. No idea. And so

43:28

I think you're right. I think a lot of young people are

43:31

processing everything

43:34

through this filter of oppressor and oppressed.

43:37

And God knows... ...and

43:43

nobody likes to see the loss of his

43:45

life in Gaza. But I think some of

43:48

these young people really don't have any idea

43:50

that Hamas is not Nelson Mandela.

43:53

Well, I agree With

43:57

you. You

44:00

know these are a it's ideology is

44:03

alliance is among groups you know like

44:05

at Berkeley law. At one point you

44:07

know that in one invite any pro

44:09

Zionist. Speakers. Even if

44:11

there were talking about insurance law and

44:14

is it attracted. I mean

44:16

it's it's it's it's it's an alliance

44:18

among these groups. and as a or

44:20

when it comes to the treatment of

44:22

women, one to treat some sort of

44:24

homophobia in the like. You know they

44:26

sort of ignore what's yours on it

44:28

bother. You Have to say this makes

44:30

do so suspicious is one thing to

44:32

say. you don't like Chinese policy. It's

44:34

another thing to say. The shouldn't be

44:36

a China it's worth. Yeah, he did.

44:38

You have two point two percent of

44:40

the world's population in Israel. Up

44:43

but. There's no protest movement about a

44:45

Ram. I mean is not. Or

44:47

about Venezuela. Or or about.

44:50

Any. You know of extreme right or

44:52

left wing regime that is mistreating? It's people

44:54

fun with a bit of the week or

44:57

some of the largest country the world as

44:59

his odds of putting wieters and concentration camps.

45:01

but Burma is a terrible Scottish cancer and

45:03

just as a genocide in Darfur. S

45:07

For some reason. Manifests,

45:09

As the one point left up to

45:11

protest, why do you suppose it's Israel.

45:15

Well that's what makes so many

45:17

jews think is anti semitic. You

45:19

know sometimes some almost say and

45:21

I believe this conceptualist his ascension

45:23

between being anti Israel. Or

45:25

opposing Israeli policy was a thought

45:27

for the Bb government or whatever

45:30

and hating the Jewish people. But.

45:34

What? You see is in Alpha

45:36

Earth after a situation where almost

45:38

every other country in the world

45:41

gets a pass. As

45:43

at of committed heinous crimes of all

45:45

sorts and much larger numbers. In

45:47

of how many hundreds of thousands were slaughtered

45:49

in Syria, have you seen a protest about

45:52

the Syrian government? I haven't seen it. And.

45:56

That. Is why maybe. that

45:59

benny who's feel that the line between

46:01

being an anti-Zionist or

46:04

critical of the Israeli government

46:07

and being anti-Semitic may

46:09

have been crossed. I mean, I'm just telling you

46:11

how the listeners feel about

46:14

the messaging they're seeing and

46:16

the message being sent out on university

46:18

campuses by these protestors. That's

46:20

the way they see it. And

46:22

I have to say, there's something to that. And

46:25

you need to look at it from the standpoint, not only

46:27

the speaker, I didn't intend, although

46:29

I'm dubious about that. I

46:31

didn't intend that, but

46:33

it's like saying, I didn't

46:35

intend to be racist when you make a racist comment.

46:37

Who cares what you intended? This is what you said,

46:39

and this is the effect on

46:42

African-American people. One

46:46

last question before I get back to Al, divestment.

46:50

Okay, you were the chief officer of the

46:52

University of Texas, this is the University of

46:54

California system. Students are demanding divestment.

46:57

Now there's a rich history with this, right? I

46:59

was one of the many students in the 80s

47:01

calling for divestment from South Africa. The

47:04

Cal system has divested from fossil fuels, at least

47:06

they say they have. But

47:08

what does divestment look like with Israel?

47:11

Some of the students are saying, you

47:14

can't even hold investments in Google and

47:16

Microsoft, who they believe somehow are complicit

47:19

in the situation in Israel. By

47:21

the way, have

47:23

those protestors stopped

47:25

using Google and Microsoft? What?

47:29

Apple. What

47:31

does that look like? What if you were the administrator? The

47:34

president of Brown apparently has announced that I think it's a

47:36

woman, she's gonna have a vote on

47:38

divestment and then defuse the crisis

47:40

of Brown. So maybe there's something to this.

47:42

Maybe we should all look at divestment. What

47:45

does it look like though? As somebody who

47:47

had to provide over those policies. It's the

47:50

answer is that it will fail. No

47:53

universe, this has been going on for 10, 15 years or

47:55

more. No

47:57

university in America has divested from.

48:00

Investments and companies doing business

48:02

with Israel. That one has

48:04

done that. The. Laws changed since

48:06

the South African there's there's now a

48:08

to point out up as something that

48:10

you know a supreme court case you

48:13

member poses. I used to keep secrets

48:15

from you by putting them in law

48:17

books and you'd never find such as

48:19

and I'm Sandra suppose there is a

48:22

frame court case. It's effectively in my

48:24

opinion says that. If

48:26

the State Department says it's okay

48:28

to boycott a nation, that it's

48:30

okay. But. If they don't say that,

48:32

they won't. And there were thirty states. Including

48:35

California. Jerry Brown signed a

48:37

law which forbids. Institutions

48:40

risk that that the government institutions

48:42

and I'm not sure whether

48:44

applies to just any university receiving

48:47

funds. I think it does. says.

48:49

You can't do it. So. As

48:52

a matter of law, and thirty states

48:54

including red states and blue states like

48:56

California and Texas, you're not allowed to

48:59

do it. And

49:01

I and I do think it's different in our

49:03

of. Because of

49:05

it's an. Impact

49:08

On. Foreign relations

49:10

and the fact that you know the

49:13

Federal government calls the shots. On

49:15

these things. and we have state laws in

49:17

this, which by the way I don't know

49:19

of state laws. maybe they are some. I

49:21

don't read more books anymore either, which would

49:24

say you know if you're opposed to fossil

49:26

fuels, you can't remove that from your portfolio.

49:28

So I think this is not start and

49:30

by the way I think it's make way.

49:33

I mean if. I

49:36

mean, it's the divestment is pretty far removed.

49:38

From. The War in the Middle East

49:40

and mean it isn't A this is

49:43

it's not A is a step. Dad's

49:45

Burgers The of. The

49:47

Palestinian cause. And

49:49

it as if something happens on

49:51

the Temple Mousers protest is with

49:54

such as the Law launches raucous

49:56

on Israel doesn't protest in support

49:58

of Hezbollah. I. I don't delude

50:00

myself that the real issue is symbolism,

50:02

but it will never become a reality

50:05

in America. Albert? I

50:08

certainly agree with Paul that Hamas is

50:10

no Nelson Mandela. Neither

50:12

is Benjamin Netanyahu Winston Churchill. And

50:16

I think it's in my friend Jim Gerstein

50:18

has done some great surveying, both in here,

50:21

and finds that I think it's

50:23

90% of American Jews say you

50:25

can be pro-Israel and against that

50:27

government. And I abhor

50:30

the excesses, but I

50:32

also think that what Benjamin Netanyahu is

50:34

doing is worthy of great protest, Mark.

50:36

I mean, I think this is a

50:38

guy who wants to keep his ass

50:41

out of jail. And

50:44

I think that's a view that a number

50:46

of people in Israel, including probably

50:48

Benny Gatz hole right now. So

50:51

I think it's, I

50:54

think Hamas is just horrendous. But

50:56

I don't think we then have to say so therefore, the

50:59

other side is, you know, a bunch

51:03

of Jeffersonian Democrats. Well, you

51:06

know, I agree with you. I mean, I criticize

51:08

Israel when I disagree with

51:10

the policies. You'll never see anything out of

51:12

my organization that says that

51:15

we approve of this strategy

51:17

in the war or we don't, you know, we

51:19

stay out of it. And,

51:24

you know, our contacts are mainly with universities over there.

51:26

So I think that's

51:28

right. And

51:31

that you can be very critical of

51:33

Bibi. You can think that they ought

51:36

to have a different government, something for

51:38

the Israelis to decide. You

51:40

can question his motivations for why he does

51:42

what he does. You

51:44

know, one thing that's going to happen in

51:46

Israel, you know, the way they were, Israelis

51:51

were caught off guard, apparently, and their

51:54

intelligence failed, or at least someone was paying

51:56

no attention to some of the intelligence. I

51:59

mean, I think all that is

52:02

worthy of investigation. So

52:05

I don't know what else to say. I mean, I

52:07

think, you know, you

52:09

know, he has a lot of critics inside

52:12

Israel. I mean, as you well know.

52:14

And I

52:17

don't see the

52:20

work of dealing with anti-Semitism

52:22

and campus climate

52:24

in America is dependent

52:27

upon a Churchillian view of Bibi

52:29

Netanyahu. I mean, that's my, so I

52:31

agree with you. You

52:34

know, I have to tell just one

52:36

story about campus demonstrations. At Duke, 50

52:40

years ago, the great Terry Sanford was

52:42

president, and there were a bunch, a

52:44

huge group of demonstrators. And Terry went

52:46

out and met with them. And

52:48

they said, we're going to take over the

52:50

administration building. And he said, go ahead.

52:52

I've been trying to do that for two years. And

52:57

which I think, you know, you know, communication,

52:59

some of these leaders don't do

53:01

a very good job communication. By the

53:03

way, Terry was the one who ended

53:05

Jewish quotas at Duke University, which had

53:07

them up until the early 70s. So

53:11

I think if we had more Terry Sanford

53:13

leading universities, you know, we might have less

53:15

trouble. Well, they try. But, you know, you

53:17

need someone on the other side who is willing to talk

53:19

to you. I mean, I

53:21

think, I mean, one reading of the Columbia

53:24

situation is the president made huge

53:26

efforts to interact with them

53:29

and to talk with them, but they don't want

53:31

to talk. I mean, it

53:33

really depends on the audience. My favorite, I have

53:35

my story. You know, one of my predecessors at

53:37

the University of Minnesota, they

53:39

came to his house and were chanting, free

53:42

Mandela, free Mandela, free Mandela. He came out

53:44

and said, they don't have them. I

53:48

mean, I think there is a way to, so

53:51

I obviously encourage them to talk, but

53:53

if they, you know,

53:55

I'm not sure the protesters at

53:57

the University of Pennsylvania or Columbia.

54:00

Are in the talking mood? I

54:02

mean that that's that's the nub

54:04

of it and you need two sides to have that dialogue

54:06

but i'm in favor of it if a

54:09

president can pull that off and and Sanford

54:12

was a great president and you know, and

54:14

I think of you know prior presidents at

54:16

the University of california

54:18

and and dodor dame and other

54:20

places I

54:23

think that's great talk to them and see if

54:25

you can work through some of the issues and

54:28

and so forth You

54:30

know, i'm not sure that you want to

54:32

negotiate what your portfolio looks like Uh

54:35

with no i'm not either, but I think I

54:38

think having You know political

54:40

as well as academic skills is is

54:42

useful for a university leader And

54:45

I think whether whoever is right or wrong,

54:47

I think I I know i'm not

54:49

as convinced that the columbia president You

54:52

know reached out as effectively Uh

54:54

as you suggest though, I may be wrong,

54:56

but I just think that terry santford example

54:59

Our analogy, I wish we had more but

55:01

remember these are different times. That's all I

55:04

can say and the rules of engagement seem

55:06

to change You know when

55:08

I was at harvard during the vietnam

55:10

war, I never met anyone faculty member

55:12

students staff member Who was in favor

55:14

of the war or the draft? The

55:17

campus was not divided It

55:20

was not that sort of a problem this

55:22

is a a a

55:24

conflict within the communities within the faculty

55:27

within the student body and so forth

55:30

It's it's very different and

55:32

uh, uh And

55:34

and these movements look, you

55:37

know In in the old days

55:39

we just I didn't I never was a protester

55:41

i'm a peacenik But you know

55:43

the you know, they would Carry

55:46

signs carrying balsa wood and then I

55:48

discovered at the universe California

55:50

they were bringing more hardwood to that

55:52

and using that occasionally to beat someone

55:55

over the head That's a difference in

55:57

the tactic. So different tactics and and

56:00

a problem which is splitting

56:02

the campuses in a way that

56:04

Vietnam did not split the campuses.

56:06

They were united and opposed to

56:08

the administration's position. Well,

56:12

there were an awful lot of crazies in the

56:14

Vietnam demonstrations, but you know what? They were right.

56:17

They were right. The world's wrong. And,

56:20

you know, for all their exercises— Well, I opposed the

56:22

war at the time, and,

56:24

you know, I don't make any bones about it. But

56:29

it's not sufficient to be right. It's how

56:32

you conduct yourself. You

56:34

know, and it was a free speech movement at

56:37

Berkeley originally. And this

56:39

is not a free speech movement. I

56:42

mean, it just isn't. I mean,

56:44

the same people who want diversity,

56:46

equity, and inclusion have no trouble

56:49

vilifying Jewish people on their campus. What

56:51

sort of inclusion is that? Well, let's

56:53

talk about the academic engagement—yeah, the academic

56:55

engagement network, Mark. You were kind enough

56:58

during COVID to set up a Zoom

57:00

where I met with many

57:02

of your members. These are

57:05

leading academics in university in

57:07

the years. It seems to

57:09

me they're simply interested in a teaching

57:12

moment. Right. Again,

57:15

I'm barely opposed to Nathan.

57:17

I went to Israel and worked for his

57:19

opponent, who's now the president of Israel, Blushie

57:21

Herzog. But

57:23

you learn something when you have to go and do that, right?

57:26

And is there a way to bring

57:30

those kind of academic values of

57:32

free speech and honest debate into

57:35

this? It doesn't mean that everybody will come out

57:37

on this side that I'm on, and it may

57:39

well be that there are important points. There

57:41

certainly are on the other side. How

57:45

do you foster academic engagement? Not right

57:47

now, because it's red hot. Okay, but

57:49

let's say the summer and things die

57:52

out as kids go home. And in the

57:54

fall, how do you make

57:56

this a teaching moment? They used to have teach-ins

57:58

during the Vietnam War where people would actually learn

58:01

about like, where is Vietnam and why are we

58:03

there? Is there any hope

58:05

that, you know, the problems

58:08

of these protests can be

58:10

cured with more free speech and

58:12

academic engagement? Well, you

58:14

know, that is the whole premise of

58:16

the Academic Engagement Network. We have a

58:19

thousand professors on

58:21

300 plus

58:23

campuses across the country. And

58:26

what we do is we do

58:30

programs for DEI officers.

58:35

We have a list of speakers that we send

58:39

to the campus. We make grants to

58:42

faculty members, mostly

58:44

to address anti-Semitism on campus.

58:48

In the whole premise of the organization

58:50

is educational. That's what we do. We

58:53

don't have people who protest and march into the

58:55

president's office or any of that sort of stuff.

58:58

It's all about, and frankly, there are

59:01

now pro-Palestinian chapters

59:03

of professors across the country.

59:06

There's the Students for Justice in Palestine.

59:08

There's the Jewish Voices for Peace. You

59:12

know, per se, unless they misbehave in the

59:14

ways that we've talked about, you know,

59:16

we're not saying they don't have, they're not

59:19

entitled to our voice, but we're trying to

59:21

create alternative voices out there

59:23

on the community that can

59:25

engage the students and the

59:27

faculty and the administrators. And

59:32

I think that's coming along. I mean, I think of

59:34

NYU, which has done a very good job on that

59:37

sort of thing. And

59:42

there are now a committee studying anti-Semitism.

59:44

Our members either lead or are on

59:46

many of those committees around the country.

59:48

You provide them with information, with

59:51

data points they might use. We

59:53

haven't put it out yet formally, but we have

59:55

a best practices document dealing with the issues you've

59:58

raised, you know, time, place, and so on. in

1:00:00

manner, what are real

1:00:02

threats, you know, when is it

1:00:04

that someone's saying I hate Israel, which

1:00:07

I don't like, but which

1:00:09

is not per se, but

1:00:11

which is probably protected. What

1:00:14

are the types of things that

1:00:16

constraints that would apply depending on

1:00:18

how they engage in this expression?

1:00:23

So that was the hope of the organization. I

1:00:25

wish it were a little less crazy than

1:00:28

it is at the moment, but anyhow, it's

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1:00:36

of this. Someone, it wasn't

1:00:38

me, someone once said, all of human

1:00:40

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1:00:42

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1:00:44

think that's right. And yeah,

1:00:47

you know, I'm a, what can I

1:00:49

say, I'm a child of the Renaissance, or maybe

1:00:51

Maimonides, you know, I always live

1:00:53

in hope. I don't, I try

1:00:55

not to give up on anyone, really, but

1:00:58

certainly not the students who are

1:01:00

protesting the life. But

1:01:04

when it interferes with the

1:01:07

ability of Jewish students to feel safe and

1:01:10

wanted on campus, I have a problem. Well,

1:01:12

that's a great way to end it, because

1:01:14

I think we all should agree on that.

1:01:16

And you have been very eloquent, Mark, you

1:01:18

know, if we can't thank you enough, this

1:01:21

is a heck of an issue. It's not going to go

1:01:23

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1:01:25

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20-dollar bonus on a $50

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deposit. And you also

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can find the link in our show notes. Hey,

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now for the outrage of the week. Paul,

1:04:37

I'm going to be a little bit grumpy,

1:04:39

maybe more than a little bit. First, I'm

1:04:41

not sure what useful functions either national parties

1:04:43

play these days. Trump installed a whole new

1:04:46

team at the RNC, including his daughter and

1:04:48

Laura, who said they have suits on voting

1:04:50

fraud in 81 states. Here's 81 states. Now,

1:04:53

of course, there are only 50, but

1:04:58

then again, this has nothing to do with

1:05:00

voter fraud, of which there is precious little

1:05:03

in America. It's about voter suppression

1:05:05

or voter intimidation. So if you

1:05:07

have a fraudulent program, you

1:05:09

might as well use fraudulent data.

1:05:11

Laura, that's fine. Now, I'm

1:05:14

also not terribly high on the DNC,

1:05:16

but the other day it warned that

1:05:18

if Donald Trump is elected, it could

1:05:20

mean the end of the White House

1:05:22

Correspondents Dinner. Now, I know of at

1:05:24

least 87 reasons

1:05:26

why Donald Trump should not be elected.

1:05:29

The fate of the White House Correspondents

1:05:31

Dinner didn't even make the cutting room

1:05:33

floor. That dinner has little to do

1:05:35

with the press, White House, or otherwise.

1:05:38

I actually have Been to show you

1:05:40

when an old guy I am to 33

1:05:42

or 34 of these, the first half, it

1:05:45

used to be okay, mainly journalists taking an

1:05:47

interesting and important source for a dinner where

1:05:49

booze flowed. But One of my pleasures is

1:05:51

that now we have, it's more about glitterati

1:05:54

and special interest in lobbying, which is fine,

1:05:56

but I don't like going, so I don't

1:05:58

have to go anymore. And I

1:06:00

make if you have these dinners it's

1:06:02

terrific but less that presents. There's any

1:06:04

him you do with the press and

1:06:06

I'm sorry Dnc is not one of

1:06:09

the Greeks actually save for Donald Trump

1:06:11

was elected. I didn't go this week

1:06:13

but I did watch the humorous speech

1:06:15

of Saturday Night Live. Colon just in

1:06:17

the New York Times is dead wrong.

1:06:19

He was terrific at the event is

1:06:21

worth watching on you to. Fall.

1:06:24

I'm with the on call and Joseph and

1:06:26

I'm even more negative on that dinner. It's

1:06:29

it is of I went across. I've worked

1:06:32

for present Clin and he was so you

1:06:34

know he was a good sport recently. Funny.i

1:06:36

peeked and twenty eleven I saw Barack Obama

1:06:38

in disarray Donald Trump. I was there by

1:06:41

bus at the end and then not knowing

1:06:43

of course know what did that. He'd already

1:06:45

given the order. To. Get

1:06:48

tougher. Kills an oven on. My.

1:06:50

God and he was a to have a than

1:06:52

that. right? That was amazing so

1:06:54

I'm I'm bad. No interest in in going

1:06:56

again. In fact if it causes is Trump's

1:06:58

election causes the demise of at dinner that

1:07:00

might be at least one. Recent.

1:07:03

About assistance from the wasted

1:07:05

time. pod. You have anything

1:07:07

a particularly outrageous you are you want to

1:07:09

just stick to do? I do know our

1:07:11

you know how I love Texas. And.

1:07:14

I've been all over Texas as you go

1:07:17

up with in the did High Plains a

1:07:19

panel which is about as far from my

1:07:21

part of Texas as you can get hundreds

1:07:23

of miles away. But as a great little

1:07:25

towns with names like New Deal and Idol

1:07:27

Lou and Level Landed Bill Shoe and a

1:07:29

really tough people these are really independent people.

1:07:31

The service political many don't want the government

1:07:34

told what to do. Several.

1:07:37

The county's. Stack

1:07:42

of. Several

1:07:44

others at Barca and city of Odessa.

1:07:47

Are. Passing ordinances,

1:07:50

Criminalizing. Driving through

1:07:52

their town. If you need to get

1:07:54

an abortion. Can

1:07:56

you imagine a tax from Texas?

1:08:00

who had a wanted momma

1:08:02

too, she wanted a third baby. The baby

1:08:04

had a fatal fetal

1:08:06

abnormality and carrying it to term would have risked

1:08:08

her life, her doctor said. She

1:08:11

had to leave Texas to

1:08:13

get the medically required abortion

1:08:16

care she needed. If

1:08:18

you're driving through the high plains, by the

1:08:20

way, if you're sitting in Amarillo, you're 250

1:08:22

miles from the nearest abortion clinic in Santa

1:08:24

Fe. So you're driving

1:08:26

through there? Can you imagine the cops pulling

1:08:28

you over? They're not gonna pull over guys that

1:08:30

look like you and me. They're

1:08:32

gonna pull over young people, especially young women. And

1:08:36

to me, it is as terrible and

1:08:38

tragic and outrageous. It's literally un-American. It's

1:08:40

very un-Texan for the government to be pulling

1:08:42

you over and saying, what are you doing in this car, ma'am?

1:08:45

And where are you going and why? So

1:08:47

I think that is truly tragic and

1:08:49

truly outrageous. It

1:08:51

is, and sadly, it is a

1:08:54

reflection of what your wonderful state

1:08:56

politically has become. There

1:08:59

were Republicans, when I was covering

1:09:01

politics many years ago, John

1:09:04

Tower, Bill Clements, certainly George

1:09:07

W. Bush, George H. W. Bush, who you

1:09:09

might not have agreed with, but you had

1:09:11

a certain respect for. Now

1:09:13

you have nothing but a bunch of crooks and

1:09:15

clowns. And Paul, I was

1:09:18

so taken by the fact

1:09:20

that Ken Paxton, your legally,

1:09:23

criminally, ethically challenged attorney

1:09:26

general was at the Trump

1:09:28

trial the other day. And I thought, how fitting

1:09:30

that Mr. Paxton gets to see what it's like

1:09:32

on the inside of a courtroom,

1:09:35

because he may be there someday. Well,

1:09:37

the people of Texas, you

1:09:39

know, they need to know they need to vote. You

1:09:41

know, Texas is almost always 49th

1:09:44

in voter turnout. Yes,

1:09:46

Texas is a red state, but even more than

1:09:48

that, it's a non-voting state. So

1:09:50

if you want to protect women

1:09:52

like Kate Cox, By

1:09:54

the way, the people of Amarillo may well be

1:09:56

voting on a similar travel ban in their city

1:09:59

this year. The council's the contemplating

1:10:01

passing one or maybe ending it off

1:10:03

the boat have an up vote. I

1:10:06

think they'd have a completely different result

1:10:08

there. They have a very hot salary.

1:10:10

Got a great Saturday. Don't pay Paul

1:10:12

I'm a collins people talked about that.

1:10:14

Our Rourke and Out say you're from

1:10:16

my vantage points how an hour at

1:10:18

as a better candidate than better work.

1:10:21

I was instructed by Nancy Pelosi

1:10:23

twenty eighteen, get my As to

1:10:25

Texas and Go Me column in

1:10:27

keeping with him and I did

1:10:29

and he is remarkable. Guy on

1:10:31

that is the sort of bio

1:10:33

of of colonists. Three words: Jesus

1:10:35

Mama Football. For.

1:10:37

His or his present. a printer sensation

1:10:40

of death as bad insects. Jesus my

1:10:42

Air Med en yes Logan said. His

1:10:45

medical sound face. He was

1:10:47

raised by single mom who was

1:10:49

really heroic a he got into

1:10:52

sports and football played at at

1:10:54

Baylor tragically and then as an

1:10:56

undersized linebacker militant claim the Nfl.

1:10:59

He went on get a law degree in

1:11:01

is very impressive Civil rights lawyer now is

1:11:03

a congressman. I mean sea is. Everything

1:11:06

I think a Texan on a B and

1:11:08

everything Texans are admire in a potential Senator

1:11:10

and. Cancer. Is

1:11:12

you know as we say back home.

1:11:15

God let I'm have a bless his

1:11:17

heart still need someone to so I

1:11:20

just. Get

1:11:22

that duty to God are you know I

1:11:24

will. I'll joke or to the Bush campaign

1:11:26

George W Bush minute of Bush's people did

1:11:28

this joke to bear a long time said

1:11:30

it's said same him or points is why

1:11:32

did you take such an instant decide to

1:11:34

me in a guy similar. i'll

1:11:38

tell you to quick stories parker's your

1:11:40

encyclopedic knowledge of texas overwhelms but i

1:11:42

went up by one time with the

1:11:44

with present carries grandson to present a

1:11:47

profound courage award to george hw bush

1:11:49

who was up again he been forty

1:11:51

couldn't come to the dinner and he

1:11:54

just charm young jax last birds and

1:11:56

i talked to barbara bush for about

1:11:58

forty five minutes And Jack

1:12:01

may have learned more, I may have had more fun. One

1:12:03

of the stories she told me was, people, I'm the gatekeeper.

1:12:05

People come to see me if they want to see George.

1:12:08

And I usually say, okay, we set it up. Ted Cruz

1:12:10

called the other day, I said no. That

1:12:13

was it. Colin

1:12:16

Alrad, after the 18 election, I

1:12:18

called some of those new members because I hadn't been out

1:12:21

as much as I would like to have. And

1:12:23

he called back the next day and he

1:12:25

said, I'm sorry I couldn't call back yesterday, but I was

1:12:27

seeing a constituent. And I said who? He said I was

1:12:29

over talking to George W. Bush. I

1:12:32

thought, that's pretty good. A new

1:12:34

Democratic congressman going, talking to

1:12:36

the former president of the United States, who

1:12:38

I bet you in the sanctity of his

1:12:40

ballot box, which we'll never

1:12:43

know, will pull the Alrad

1:12:45

lever. Yeah, people should

1:12:47

look at what he did. He represents one

1:12:49

of the wealthiest and not

1:12:51

at all minority. He's a black man, his

1:12:53

district is white. My

1:12:56

niece, Grace Begallant, full disclosure, worked

1:12:58

for Colin in that campaign. She

1:13:00

would tell me about going door to door for this guy. And

1:13:03

it says, people like to ding Texas, it

1:13:05

says a lot about the people

1:13:07

of Dallas County, that they picked a guy

1:13:09

like Colin Alrad to represent a former

1:13:12

president like George W. Bush. Boy, it sure

1:13:14

does. All right, if we're into full

1:13:16

disclosure, if you're up in New York, I got a race in

1:13:18

New York 4. It's

1:13:21

one of those total subraces where a certain

1:13:23

son of mine that you gambled with one

1:13:26

time when he was only a teenager with.

1:13:28

So stop by Rockville Center, they could use

1:13:30

your help up there, Paul. On

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my way. All right. Total

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our show notes. And

1:16:39

now for our listener questions Paul we

1:16:41

have such informed smart listeners. They really

1:16:44

do challenge us every week in such

1:16:46

a productive way. The first is from

1:16:48

Brian in Thousand Oaks, California and

1:16:51

he says, I mean you picked up an answer

1:16:53

but is Florida State for the Biden campaign to

1:16:55

put more focus on? With so many Cubans living

1:16:57

there does it make sense to remind them of

1:16:59

how it was living under an autocrat? Good way

1:17:01

to put it, Brian. Yes,

1:17:04

Cubans, Venezuelans who

1:17:06

of course fleeing a terrible dictatorship down

1:17:08

there. Yes, yes, yes. And

1:17:12

this new really stringent

1:17:15

and cruel abortion ban that

1:17:18

Florida has enacted. Citizens

1:17:21

in Florida have the opportunity to

1:17:24

take back their state and if

1:17:27

I were Biden's campaign I'd send

1:17:29

money down there for sure, advertise

1:17:31

heavily. The abortion is

1:17:33

on the ballot but it

1:17:35

requires 60% to win which

1:17:37

actually is good for turnout. That's saying

1:17:39

man it really matters. Don't assume this

1:17:41

thing's gonna pass. You gotta do something

1:17:43

Ohio and Kansas and other places couldn't

1:17:45

do. You got to get the 60%

1:17:48

and they got a shot, Paul. They

1:17:51

do, they do. I think that folks

1:17:54

are really tired in Florida

1:17:56

of the kind of ultra

1:17:59

extreme this governance that they're

1:18:01

getting and I think they

1:18:03

want to go back to the sensible center. Yeah.

1:18:07

Next is Tom in Vancouver, Washington,

1:18:10

who asked how will Trump's trial play

1:18:12

out in the more important court of

1:18:14

public opinion. Normally a campaign wouldn't want

1:18:16

their candidate to attend a porn star

1:18:18

hush money trial. Clearly not normal.

1:18:21

Kim, I thought that when he

1:18:24

made fun of John McCain and sold to John

1:18:26

McCain as a war hero, I thought that would

1:18:28

be devastating for him. I thought

1:18:30

when the access Hollywood tape came out, it

1:18:33

was all over. That was it. The election

1:18:35

was done. I thought when

1:18:37

he went and his first impeachment, he

1:18:39

shook down a foreign leader in

1:18:42

order to dig up dirt about an opponent.

1:18:44

I thought, my God, no, I can't imagine

1:18:46

anyone doing that. And then I

1:18:48

thought January 6th, that absolutely is the end.

1:18:51

So I've got a pretty bad track

1:18:53

record and I'm really not sure. My

1:18:56

gut tells me that if

1:18:58

he is criminally convicted, that that will

1:19:01

make a little bit of a difference.

1:19:03

But I've been wrong so often before.

1:19:06

Paul, you know, I

1:19:09

actually am not sure that the conviction will

1:19:11

have any effect. But you know what is

1:19:14

the process? Trump,

1:19:17

Trump supporters see him

1:19:20

as a strong man. Particularly

1:19:22

in the case of Biden's age, they see

1:19:24

Biden as weak and informed. Biden

1:19:26

has done a terrific job of mocking

1:19:30

Trump, of ridiculing him for

1:19:32

being old, fat,

1:19:35

weak, sleepy, gassy, good God,

1:19:37

carvel is like corn of the market

1:19:39

on fart jokes about Donald Trump. This

1:19:42

is something his supporters can't bear. Like

1:19:45

when I go on TV and say, oh, he wants

1:19:47

to be a dictator on day one. His

1:19:50

people love hearing that. But if you say, you

1:19:53

know, he's just kind of pathetic, I feel sorry for the guy.

1:19:55

You know, finally, a week into

1:19:57

the trial, one of his kids. showed

1:20:00

up for one of the sessions. Like

1:20:02

his own family, his own family. Jeffrey

1:20:05

Dahmer's family came to his trial. I

1:20:07

mean, the guy is pathetic. He's a

1:20:09

loser. He's sleepy. He's out

1:20:11

of gas. He's weak. Well,

1:20:14

he's literally out of gas. But I think

1:20:16

that picture of

1:20:19

this guy as deflated is

1:20:22

hurting him. I hope so. I

1:20:25

think you may be right, but I hope so. Jeff

1:20:27

in San Francisco says having two

1:20:30

Supreme Court seats hijacked by the

1:20:32

Republicans and blockages galore by

1:20:34

McConnell and other Republicans, why don't

1:20:36

we simply let Speaker Johnson walk

1:20:39

the plank? Why would a

1:20:41

Democrat vote for someone other than Jeffrey's

1:20:43

first speaker? This is if

1:20:45

there's a motion to vacate the chair

1:20:47

by Marjorie Taylor Greene. Should Democrats help

1:20:50

Mike Johnson? I

1:20:52

think they should, actually. Johnson is probably even

1:20:55

more conservative than Kevin McCarthy. I've got absolutely

1:20:57

no Democratic support. That's because Kevin McCarthy had

1:20:59

no beliefs. That's the

1:21:01

thing now. I called, when that was going on, I

1:21:03

literally called some of the most liberal members of Congress

1:21:05

and the Democratic Party, some of the most moderate. They

1:21:07

all said the same thing. They

1:21:09

didn't say Kevin's too conservative for me.

1:21:11

They all said he's a liar. And

1:21:15

as you know, you've covered the Hill. I've worked on the Hill.

1:21:17

The coin of the realm is that you keep your word. Absolutely.

1:21:21

And Democrats believed,

1:21:24

I think fairly, that McCarthy was

1:21:26

a liar. They think

1:21:28

Johnson's ultra conservative, but he had no idea

1:21:30

them. And he

1:21:33

did pass this rearming America bill, right,

1:21:35

that will build more

1:21:38

tanks in Lima, Ohio, and more

1:21:40

attack on missiles in Arkansas, which

1:21:42

we then can't send the old

1:21:44

ones to Ukraine that they can

1:21:46

use to defend

1:21:48

themselves against Putin's invasion. So I think that's been

1:21:50

a terrific law. And I would never call it

1:21:53

foreign aid. It's not foreign aid. It's a rearming

1:21:55

America. And I salute Johnson for

1:21:57

doing that. And I think he is, you

1:21:59

know, I think that the country needs some stability

1:22:01

there, even though I don't agree with him on 95%

1:22:03

of the issues. I

1:22:05

think Democrats are right to say they'll step in and save him this

1:22:07

time. Yeah, you don't unseat a

1:22:10

guy after he's done a good and a

1:22:12

pretty courageous thing. I mean, that just stands

1:22:14

in eye. And moreover, if Akeem

1:22:16

Jeffries does that, and I say if it comes to a

1:22:19

vote, I'm pretty sure he will,

1:22:21

it's gonna drive the crazies crazier.

1:22:24

It really is. Can you just imagine

1:22:26

Boebert and Greene and Chip Roy and

1:22:28

all the others, oh my God. So

1:22:30

it's worth doing. Paul Gosar of Arizona

1:22:32

has already waited and wants to remove

1:22:34

Johnson. Anyway, okay.

1:22:37

Randall, and boy,

1:22:39

I know my wife was born in Oklahoma. I

1:22:41

better get this right. Maybe you know, Suppa

1:22:44

Loopa, Oklahoma. Do you know that,

1:22:46

S-U-P-U-L-P-A? I

1:22:49

don't know, Judy, I'm sorry. You know, but she

1:22:52

was born in Tulsa. Would

1:22:54

Democrats in Washington accept defeat if

1:22:56

Trump does defeat Biden in the

1:22:58

Electoral College, but not the popular

1:23:00

vote in November? The answer is yes,

1:23:02

we've already done it. 2000, remember,

1:23:05

Al Gore won. He not only won the

1:23:07

popular vote, he probably got cheated out of

1:23:09

Florida. And other than a

1:23:11

few strays, led

1:23:15

by a really eloquent speech that

1:23:17

Al Gore gave on December 13th, Democrats

1:23:20

accepted it. That's what you

1:23:22

do. There have been other elections like that.

1:23:25

The only person, the only person

1:23:27

in American history that I'm aware of

1:23:30

that doesn't believe that the actual

1:23:32

votes matter that you contested is

1:23:35

Donald J. Trump, who to this day has never

1:23:37

conceded that he lost in 2020. He

1:23:40

lost, he lost clearly. He is a loser.

1:23:43

Yeah, there's only been five times in American

1:23:46

history where the popular vote was

1:23:48

different from the electoral vote. The problem

1:23:50

is twice, two of those five times happened

1:23:52

the last 24 years. And

1:23:54

in both times, Al Gore and Hillary

1:23:56

Clinton were patriots. I

1:24:00

think Gore clearly was cheated by the Supreme Court. Hillary

1:24:02

was not, she was cheated by Jim Comey, but

1:24:06

Hillary lost fair and square. Gore,

1:24:09

I think, lost because of the intervention of the Supreme

1:24:12

Court, but both of them stepped up

1:24:14

and said, even though

1:24:17

they were the choice of the American people, that's

1:24:19

not how the system works because of

1:24:21

this damnable electoral college, and

1:24:24

they went along with it. And

1:24:27

this will happen again for

1:24:29

the Democrats. But interestingly, in his interview with

1:24:31

Time Magazine, Mr. Trump once more refused

1:24:35

to say he would peacefully and

1:24:38

honorably acknowledge if

1:24:40

and when he is defeated again. Well,

1:24:44

he even has said he doesn't want to

1:24:46

point anyone who doesn't acknowledge that the 2020

1:24:49

election was stolen. So

1:24:51

therefore, he just wants a bunch of letters

1:24:53

as an illustration. That's fitting. It's

1:24:57

remarkable. This question has

1:24:59

to go to you. It's Mike, in

1:25:01

a little town I think you've heard

1:25:03

of called Austin, Texas, the

1:25:06

home of Paul Bagala and my

1:25:08

wonderful assistant, LL, as

1:25:10

in Longhorn Lefty Carter. The

1:25:12

question is, why do we keep hearing Trump

1:25:14

being treated like any other criminal defendant

1:25:17

while he keeps pissing on gag orders?

1:25:19

Is there a fear that sanctions would

1:25:21

help his campaign? I

1:25:23

don't know, is the honest answer. People say

1:25:25

that people who are covering this, particularly at

1:25:27

CNN where I work, say that this judge

1:25:29

is squared away and completely fair. And

1:25:32

it may well be that for the

1:25:34

first offense of violating a gag order,

1:25:37

you don't go to jail, but you pay a fine. And

1:25:40

I'm fine with the way that this

1:25:42

judge is handling Mr. Trump. It

1:25:45

is true that he is treated better than

1:25:47

almost any of the rest of us would

1:25:49

be. I don't think

1:25:51

by this judge, but by the system itself, that

1:25:55

Trump is getting pretty favorable treatment, to

1:25:58

tell you the truth. But

1:26:00

ultimately, I'm not going to second-guess the judge for

1:26:02

making a call that judges probably made dozens of

1:26:04

times with him. No, I had the same thing

1:26:06

about this judge, Paul. John

1:26:10

in Chicago, Illinois, says, Republicans

1:26:12

that speak out against Trump

1:26:14

are getting primary. What

1:26:16

happened to all the conservative Ronald

1:26:18

Reagan Republicans that could help fund

1:26:20

candidates so they could beat the

1:26:22

MAGA cult? You know what? They're in

1:26:24

the same place that the former President Reagan is.

1:26:27

They're mainly dead. It's

1:26:29

a party that Trump has totally taken over like nothing

1:26:31

we've ever seen. FDR did not

1:26:34

dominate the Democratic Party, even the

1:26:36

way Trump dominates the Republican Party.

1:26:38

There are outliers. I

1:26:41

would advise anyone out there who

1:26:43

doesn't subscribe to the bulwark or

1:26:45

doesn't listen to the former Charlie

1:26:47

Sykes or Bill Kristol and Tim

1:26:49

Miller and Sarah. I

1:26:51

mean, it is long term. It's

1:26:55

a really, it's a very worthwhile

1:26:57

site. They are former Republicans and

1:26:59

maybe current Republicans. They know the

1:27:01

party. They know the man, and they

1:27:03

are unremitting in their criticisms

1:27:07

on Trump. I don't have

1:27:09

hold on. The party's cave, Paul.

1:27:11

It's just totally, totally cave. People who

1:27:13

know better have caved. And

1:27:15

I'm seeing that, I mean, I was

1:27:18

infuriated by Jamie Dimon's comments over in

1:27:20

Davos basically saying, you know, no,

1:27:22

not a bad president. Doesn't really make much

1:27:24

difference. Yes, it does, Jamie. The

1:27:27

rule of law protects your bank. Yeah,

1:27:30

I, of course I'm

1:27:32

not a Republican, but my old man

1:27:34

was my late father, my late stepfather,

1:27:36

and they would not recognize this party

1:27:38

today. They believed that Republicans stood for

1:27:41

limited government, strong

1:27:44

national offense, America leading the world and

1:27:47

family values. Anybody

1:27:49

with a straight face, say Trump stands for any of those things. I've been

1:27:52

astonished and shocked at how the

1:27:55

business community especially has just, they're so cowed

1:27:57

by Trump, you can hear him move. Cannon,

1:28:00

Reagan's biographer says that Reagan would

1:28:02

be horrified by Donald Trump. I

1:28:05

think he would. We

1:28:07

just have one more and we'll finish

1:28:09

it. It's Jeff in St. Pete who

1:28:11

he wants to ask you, Paul Vigala,

1:28:13

inflation is poison to an incumbent. Biden

1:28:16

has allowed the maggots to dominate

1:28:18

on immigration. His campaign team seems

1:28:20

to be putting him second down.

1:28:22

This is without accounting for third

1:28:25

party. Give me some optimism. Jeff

1:28:27

says, Paul, I

1:28:29

can give you optimism. Go, go into, uh, the

1:28:32

politics war room archives and find the interview

1:28:34

that Al and James did with Bob Casey,

1:28:37

the center from Pennsylvania. He is

1:28:39

dialed in on cost of living carbles rule,

1:28:41

never calling inflation dialed in on cost of

1:28:43

living. He's got a tough race in a

1:28:46

swing state. And he is talking about shrink

1:28:48

inflation and greed, inflation, how corporations

1:28:50

are ripping you off that, that,

1:28:52

you know, this is, I think he's really

1:28:54

onto something powerful here. It's so powerful that

1:28:57

Joe Biden cited him by name in the

1:28:59

state of the union address Democrats

1:29:01

can fight back on cost of living. Mr.

1:29:03

Trump wants to raise the cost of your

1:29:05

insulin. He wants to raise the cost of

1:29:07

your prescription drug. God knows what kind of

1:29:09

deals he's cutting with the Saudis who have

1:29:11

such control over the price of gas. He

1:29:13

has them come play their stupid tournaments at

1:29:15

his pathetic golf courses. So yeah, I think

1:29:18

Democrats ought to listen to Bob Casey and

1:29:20

fight back on cost of living and

1:29:22

show that they're actually on the side of reducing your cost

1:29:24

of living. And Mr. Trump wants to raise it. Well,

1:29:27

that's very good advice. And I want

1:29:29

everybody to send any, if

1:29:31

I didn't get to your questions today, make sure

1:29:33

you send, send them in next week. One particularly

1:29:36

Kathy and McKinney, Texas has one for James and

1:29:38

I'm not going to do it this week, but

1:29:40

Kathy's ended in for next week. Thank you. We

1:29:42

love those questions. Hey,

1:29:51

thanks for listening to politics war room. My

1:29:53

guest host Paul Bagala and I'm Al hunt.

1:29:56

Don't forget to send your questions for us

1:29:58

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1:30:00

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1:30:02

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