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Unlimited slows. As

1:04

the

1:07

election

1:10

clock continues to tick, the government has decided

1:12

to make a lot of noise about what

1:14

it calls the Sick Note Culture

1:17

and disabled people's benefits. I

1:19

know and you know that you don't get

1:21

anything in life without hard work. It's

1:24

always nice to hear very rich people passing judgement

1:26

on those living at the other end of the

1:28

social hierarchy. Talking of which,

1:30

the Tory attack on Angela Rayner is

1:33

grinding on. It is a

1:35

pleasure to have another exchange with the

1:37

right honourable lady in this house, our

1:39

fifth in 12 months. Any more

1:42

of these and she'll be claiming it as her

1:44

principal residence. George

1:46

Orwell once said, England is the most

1:49

class-ridden country under the sun. It is

1:51

a land of snobbery and privilege. Nothing

1:54

changes. I'm John Harris and you're listening

1:56

to Politics Week in the UK for The Guardian. Joining

2:02

me now is the Guardian's political

2:04

correspondent, Kieran Stacy. Hi Kieran. Hey

2:06

Jon. We are recording this

2:08

on Wednesday afternoon just after Prime Minister's

2:10

questions, where Labour's Deputy Leader Angela Rayner

2:13

has once again found herself defending the

2:15

sale of her old home in Stockport, by

2:18

implication whether she paid the right tax on it. She

2:20

tried to get off on the front foot from

2:22

the get-go. Let's have a quick listen to that. I

2:25

know the party officer is desperate to talk

2:27

about my living arrangements, but the

2:29

public, the

2:33

public, the public wants

2:36

to know what this government is going to do about

2:38

theirs. Kieran, there is the cent of

2:40

farce about this now. What exactly

2:42

is going on here, do you think?

2:45

Well, all right, well let's break it down a

2:47

little bit. The accusations

2:49

are basically that what

2:51

happened was Angela Rayner

2:54

married her husband, Mark, then

2:56

again, this is the allegation that

2:58

she moved into Mark's house, sublet

3:01

her house, which she had bought off

3:03

the council, to her brother.

3:05

Then when it came time to sell the

3:07

house, she claimed that was her primary property

3:09

so that she wouldn't have to pay capital

3:11

gains tax on it. To that extent, it's

3:13

quite straightforward. This is an issue that lots

3:15

of people might have encountered at some point

3:17

during their lives, which one's your

3:20

primary house, where are you really living.

3:23

Usually, it's quite easy to prove. You just show that

3:25

you were paying bills during that time. Of

3:28

course, what the Tories have been able

3:30

to do quite effectively is dig into

3:32

neighbors and friends and people

3:34

around, as you say, and build

3:37

up some evidence that actually maybe

3:39

she wasn't living married, she claimed. If

3:41

she wasn't, then maybe A, she should have

3:44

paid capital gains tax when she sold it,

3:46

and B, she should have given back the

3:48

discount she got when she originally bought it off

3:50

the council. I think it was a 25% discount.

3:52

There are rules that say, look, if you move

3:54

out of that in a certain period of time,

3:57

you're supposed to give the discount back. said,

4:00

it's not too complicated. But it's one

4:02

of those stories which is just kind

4:04

of branching off into various directions. And

4:06

as you say, when a Tory MP

4:08

was questioned about this on TV last

4:10

week, wasn't even able to say what

4:12

the allegations he was making were.

4:15

That's the Tory MP who made the complaint

4:17

to Greater Manchester Police that resulted in this

4:19

investigation involving 12 officers. We have actually got

4:21

this. So let's hear a bit of that.

4:24

What I want to do is an allegation has been made to

4:26

the police. The police are investigating that. Let's give them the time

4:28

and the opportunity to do that, which I thought was the

4:30

Conservative Party, sorry, the Labour Party's position. What do you

4:32

think she's done wrong? I've

4:35

just answered that question. And this

4:38

is typical of what we go here, shouting

4:40

very loudly. What are your concerns? What are the

4:42

concerns that you put to the police? The

4:45

information I think the Greater Manchester Police released,

4:47

or certainly appeared to release to the Times

4:49

and those, I think, are the broad framing

4:52

of the matter that they are considering. It's

4:54

kind of curious as to why the Tories don't

4:56

want to say what they're alleging. I wonder

4:58

if part of the reason for that is they're

5:01

not sure exactly where any investigation

5:03

might go. And this first came

5:05

from a book by Lord Michael

5:07

Ashcroft, the Tory donor billionaire, called

5:10

Red Queen. And interestingly, Michael Ashcroft

5:12

doesn't allege any kind of tax

5:15

problem with Angela Rayner's living

5:17

arrangements. What he suggests

5:20

is maybe there was some hypocrisy in

5:23

the fact that she'd bought this council house with a

5:25

big discount and then moved out of it straight away.

5:27

And maybe he suggested in his

5:29

book she should have handed the house back to

5:31

the council to use the social housing again, which

5:33

is a slightly strange argument,

5:35

I think, and one that obviously didn't stick at

5:37

the time, which is why we've now ended up

5:39

in this position where we talk about council tax

5:42

and capital gains tax. If she didn't pay capital

5:44

gains tax, remind me what some we're talking about

5:46

here? We think tax

5:48

advisors have estimated somewhere in the region of

5:50

£1,000 to £3,000. This is

5:53

not a lot of money. Right. And This

5:55

obviously is in the midst of a

5:57

ruling party which has had more than

5:59

its fair share of money. share of

6:02

scandal, sleaze, misconduct, etc. etc. That about

6:04

it. Unavoidably, that's the context in which

6:06

a lot of people, including me, say

6:09

it right. Yeah, I mean, there's been

6:11

plenty of tax avoidance. I mean not

6:13

least, my class. Rycroft himself is, of

6:16

course, a tax exile living in Bilious,

6:18

so ah, A assists mushy soon Act

6:20

Money has managed to avoid a lot

6:23

of tax because of his wife's non

6:25

dom tax status. Sites across these are

6:27

these are lit perfectly. Legal arrangements Bet.

6:30

If you talk about. Avoiding peg large sums

6:32

of tax them that and will reign of probably

6:34

not the west copay pick on here it seems

6:36

to me. Because. The

6:39

Can Save A Party always likes

6:41

making allegations about left wing people

6:43

somehow being hypocritical. particularly when it

6:45

comes to money, right? That's the

6:47

idea. Yeah, I may pick on

6:49

her. The I mean frankly, she's

6:51

a high profile working class. know

6:53

them women's instinctively. I think she

6:55

just wants a lot of Tories

6:57

up there. something more calculated about

6:59

it as well. which is we're

7:01

heading towards the local elections, which

7:03

will will talk about soon. Bets

7:05

she is by all accounts and

7:07

enormously. Effective campaigner and labor have talked

7:09

about using her basically as their secret

7:12

weapon in the Red Rose in those

7:14

northern states that desperate when so. I

7:16

think the Tories idea here is: can

7:18

they take her off the pitch? Essentially.

7:21

Can they nullify her? The accusations are

7:23

sufficiently so of arcane and says a

7:25

lot of explanation, right? And in that

7:27

sense, It. Seems to me that are

7:30

already landed on in lot of they're accused

7:32

of people in my local as the token

7:34

of Angela reigns domestic tax tax arrangements. Fifteen.

7:37

Twenty years ago know and I wonder what

7:40

the readership his on the multiple stories that

7:42

there have been about this in the Daily

7:44

Telegraph in The Mail i'm an onion in

7:46

other papers or it's a wonder if they're

7:49

running them this hard because they're getting also

7:51

pick up and say they can see that

7:53

readers are interested or if they're running in

7:55

the sword because they're under quite heavy pressure

7:58

from. Conservative. Researched upon the to

8:00

do so case farmer. Has. Backed

8:02

hands of rain and cold oldest a smear that

8:04

might suggest that he knows it won't go anywhere.

8:08

I think he's quite confident. I think that

8:10

Angela Rayner is confident that this is not

8:12

going in my day like and this to

8:14

be a gate I'm sure you remember that

8:17

does not lie ahead of time. Rsvp Things

8:19

that I said back out the front of

8:21

my mind of Islam. Yeah will

8:23

be big. I was basically the same playbook.

8:25

you put an act is a snap and

8:28

then you absolutely throw everything at it and

8:30

then you get all the authorities involved so

8:32

that by the and nobody can tell what.

8:34

Really? Happened about didn't but you know

8:36

some of the mud hopefully sticks and

8:39

eve erupt. They bled a party up

8:41

in ah to in tangles fit for

8:43

several. was just eve of what a

8:45

Donald Trump's former i am wednesday by

8:47

than cold flooding the zone with shit

8:49

submit like that and that's yeah yeah

8:51

and it's not a bad strategy you

8:53

know. I was with a labour staff

8:56

us last night and he wasn't complaining

8:58

about the accusations necessarily be made against

9:00

Angela Rayner. What he was complaining about

9:02

was that they were getting such sustained

9:04

pickups. He said we don't have that kind

9:06

of media that we can rely on to

9:08

just run what we give them day after

9:11

day after day. I'm for a deep dive

9:13

on the absolute right the story you could

9:15

listen to this day and focus episode from

9:17

Wednesday about the stock about Rwanda this weeks

9:19

early burst of what some people called parliament's

9:21

ping was in the commons and Lords. but

9:24

anyway I pinged and they pong for a

9:26

while and then finally through I'm the bill

9:28

got passed into law it is said. That.

9:31

The first flight zero and will leave the

9:33

Uk in ten to twelve weeks To think

9:35

I'll be any heard was odds you. Is

9:37

it your sense of that will happen. Now.

9:40

That's going to be loads of

9:42

hurdles and and successes. Oath of

9:44

Ribs Service Gonna grind on. yeah

9:46

we get a bit we going to be keeping

9:49

you in the market with rwanda stories for it

9:51

for a while yet i mean the main hurdles

9:53

are gonna be legal every single person who is

9:55

identified as somebody who should be on one of

9:58

those flights to kigali will have legal representation

10:00

that is now pouring through reasons why they

10:02

shouldn't be on those flights. Now if you

10:04

remember, one of the things about the government's

10:06

Rwanda bill was it did allow for people

10:08

to be exempted from the scheme if they

10:11

could show a particular personal reason

10:13

they should not be deported. The

10:15

government clarified that this was supposed to be about

10:18

people who are, say, pregnant or particular health reasons

10:20

why they couldn't go. But

10:22

of course, lawyers will try and find

10:24

ways that their clients fit those criteria.

10:27

Then there's just the logistics of, you

10:29

know, we think that they're

10:31

in talks with a particular airline carrier

10:33

to actually run the flights, but several

10:35

have said no to them. And

10:38

then they've got to get the security in

10:40

place and try and make sure that protesters

10:42

don't actually disrupt any of these flights. So

10:44

there's going to be plenty of

10:46

things to overcome, I think, before the government's actually able

10:49

to get one of their flights off. It's

10:51

amazing, isn't it, to see such effort

10:53

and resources being mobilized on this policy.

10:56

The sheer expense of it, the amount

10:58

of parliamentary time given to it, the

11:02

things that they've sort of moved in their favour

11:04

as far as the judicial system's concerned and all

11:06

that. I mean, imagine this amount of spending and

11:08

urgency being attached to getting rape cases to court,

11:11

solving the crisis in special educational needs,

11:13

bailing out local councils. Any of the

11:15

real emergencies we face, there is something

11:17

quite remarkable about the pursuit of this

11:19

policy in that sense. Yeah,

11:21

absolutely. I mean, I was quite

11:23

taken aback because I was at the

11:25

Downing Street press conference that Sunak gave

11:28

on Monday morning in which he started

11:30

to unveil the resources that

11:32

they were putting behind combating these

11:34

legal challenges, you know, dozens of

11:36

judges, hundreds of courtrooms. And I

11:38

was sitting there thinking, where

11:41

have these come from? I thought that the courts

11:43

were all completely full and there was this massive

11:45

backlog of legal cases that aren't able to get

11:47

through the system because it's so chock-a-block. Now

11:50

I should say that these are immigration judges

11:52

and immigration courts. So these aren't

11:54

necessarily resources that could be used over the basis. The

11:57

Outward appearance of it is of this huge

11:59

direct... The resources it in in something which

12:01

argued the pale by comparison next to the

12:03

the kinds of issues I've sort of and

12:06

as a new set of to find space

12:08

to detain these people because of course they're

12:10

now going to trying to put people who

12:12

are not in detention. they could a quickly

12:14

detained and otherwise presumed to be then abscond

12:16

and they got to find places to do

12:18

that as well. So yes that there is

12:20

suddenly I freeing up of capacity in the

12:22

system which I think a lot of us

12:25

didn't realize existed I should say that the

12:27

backdrop of to what's happened this week cheaply

12:29

as been the deaths. Of five people including

12:31

one child on the front side of the

12:33

English Channel. Which. Happened this week

12:35

as part of the awful mood music around this.

12:38

Of back to the the politics of it.

12:40

But. I defy says it's gonna repeal this

12:42

legislation right? Yeah, like a pot says is

12:44

going to repeal the legislation. What we don't

12:46

know is what they'll do if people are

12:49

already in Rwanda and we also don't know

12:51

what they'll replace it with exactly but just

12:53

dealing with a thirst for those points or

12:55

think there are going to be questions for

12:57

labour about? Okay, you're going to repeal the

12:59

legislation, but what happens to the scheme and

13:01

what happens to anybody who is in Rwanda?

13:03

Us: What happens if the European Court of

13:06

Human Rights rules to the whole thing is

13:08

illegal and demands that Britain take those people.

13:10

Blame probably doesn't want to be. The

13:13

government has to bring science. He comes

13:15

back from Rwanda and is a sign

13:17

something So much Jg Ballard novels and

13:19

this idea that the seats are politics

13:22

revolves around his vision of a solitary

13:24

playing with a few people on a

13:26

massive cast, taken off and fly into

13:29

Kigali. There is something so of absurd

13:31

and surreal about. When. It was. It

13:33

was unveiled by Boris Johnson. the dying days of

13:35

his administration, and people around him at the time

13:37

said it was a gimmick and they never expected

13:39

it to go anywhere. you know. Suit was one

13:42

of those almost don't sony and pieces of rhetoric

13:44

that he never expected to become reality. And yet

13:46

here we are with these resources being thrown at

13:48

her and a prime minister. We think that doesn't

13:50

really believe in the scheme. it'll. ah

13:53

this is our last regular episode before next

13:55

says his local elections which has we both

13:57

know are seen as the big test really

13:59

of just much trouble the Conservatives are

14:01

in at this point immediately before the general

14:03

election whenever that's going to come. Politics

14:06

Weekly UK will be in thorough for our episode

14:08

next week to look at how things might play

14:10

out there for both the Conservatives and the Labour

14:12

Party. That's

14:14

a big moment, right? May the 2nd will

14:18

set the tone really for the election, no

14:20

matter when the election eventually arise there will

14:22

be some sense of the campaign really getting

14:25

going, for better or worse, in

14:28

the aftermath of those local elections. That's right. Yeah,

14:31

I think it already feels in Westminster, I don't

14:33

know about the rest of the country, but certainly

14:35

in Westminster we feel like we're kind of in

14:37

campaign mode now. I think that will ramp up

14:39

after the locals. There will probably

14:42

be some kind of renewed

14:44

challenge on Sunak's leadership in the days

14:47

after that, depending of course

14:49

what the results have been. I think

14:51

it's likely we'll get a kind of renewed sense

14:53

of fatalism among many Tory MPs. I'd expect to

14:55

see many announce that

14:57

they're leaving Parliament in the aftermath

14:59

of those results. What

15:03

we expect those results to tell us is

15:05

that the polls are real. We've been told

15:07

that in by-election after by-election the Tories really

15:09

are down around 20%

15:12

and Labour really are up above 40% and

15:14

that will just cement the narrative that's already

15:16

in place. The numbers in terms of what

15:19

makes a good night or a bad night,

15:21

there are about 900 seats

15:24

that the Tories are defending. We

15:26

expect them to lose around 500 of those. A

15:28

lot of those seats were won when Boris

15:30

Johnson was at the height of his popularity. Yeah,

15:32

the vaccine bounced, right? The vaccine bounced, yeah. And

15:36

so a lot of those are very, very vulnerable now.

15:38

So Tory advises now saying, look,

15:40

a good night is below 500. I

15:43

mean, that is still pretty catastrophic to

15:45

lose over half the seats you're defending, but

15:47

that's where they're at. Just

15:49

briskly, I always run election timing theories past you, so

15:51

there are two sort of in the zeitgeist at the

15:53

moment. One is the idea that

15:55

when that first plane takes off to Rwanda, at that

15:57

point he will just say, right, I now go to

15:59

the country. because it's happened, right?

16:01

And that might mean summer election. And I wonder as

16:03

well what your feelings are about what bearing the result

16:05

of the May elections might have on when the general

16:08

election finally comes. So first point, do you think there

16:10

might be something in the idea the plane takes off

16:12

and we go to the polls in July? It's

16:14

certainly what people are talking

16:16

about here this week. The

16:18

theory goes that Rishi Sunak

16:20

can't really survive the local

16:22

elections without pretty much declaring

16:24

an election straight afterwards, because there'll be

16:26

a leadership challenge. He might win, he

16:28

might lose, but either way, his

16:31

authority will have been sapped. So the only

16:33

way to grip the

16:35

agenda is to announce the election straight

16:37

after that and aim for that July

16:39

date. I think that's extremely risky and

16:41

it's probably not in his character

16:44

to take a gamble like that, partially because as

16:46

we've been talking about, that July

16:48

date could easily slip. So if they announce

16:50

an election before a flight's taken off and

16:52

then the flight doesn't take off during the

16:54

election, they miss out on that big moment that

16:56

they've been praying for. My

16:58

view is still that it'll be November. I've been saying

17:01

that all along. But one thing I think that will

17:03

have to happen, one thing I think has changed, I

17:06

suspect Sunak will have to say fairly

17:08

shortly after the local elections what his

17:10

actual date is. Remember, of course,

17:12

he's always said second half of the year. Well, the

17:15

second half of the year is fast approaching. Then

17:17

the question becomes, all right, which month, which date? And I think he's

17:19

going to have to spell that out quite

17:22

quickly or he'll completely lose control of this. Yeah,

17:24

we all wish you would, don't we? Hey,

17:27

look, I want a summer campaign, by the way. I

17:29

really don't want to be out there on the election.

17:31

No, no, no, I'm Team Autumn and Winter, I'm afraid.

17:33

I want the summer clear of this nonsense and it

17:35

parking towards Christmas, really. But

17:37

we shall see. Right, anyway, thank you for joining

17:39

us here in November. Thanks very much. Okay, let's

17:41

pause here for a minute. When we come back,

17:43

we'll talk about how this government looks like it

17:46

wants to pick a fight with disabled people and

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19:00

it's Hey,

19:02

I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint

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Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies

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are allowed to raise prices due to

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inflation. They said yes. And then when

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I asked if raising prices technically violates

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those onerous two-year contracts, they said, what

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me now are Tom Pollard, the head

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and campaigner and the author of the

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excellent blog Hannah's Hope. Hello to you

19:53

both. Hello. Hello. Let's

19:56

talk first of all about something that happened

19:58

towards the end of last week. When,

20:00

in the wake of months of noise from

20:02

Tory politicians and the right-wing press, Rishi

20:05

Sunak announced a crackdown on what he

20:07

called the sick note culture

20:09

in the UK in a speech for the

20:11

Centre for Social Justice. He described his new

20:13

attention to being paid to all this as

20:16

his moral mission. Let's hear a bit of what he

20:19

said. 11

20:21

million of these sick notes were issued last

20:23

year alone. But what

20:26

proportion were signed maybe fit for

20:28

work? Just 6%.

20:30

That's right. A

20:32

staggering 94% of those

20:35

signed off sick was

20:37

simply written off as not fit for

20:39

work. Well, that's

20:41

not right. And it was never the

20:43

intention. We don't just need to change

20:45

the sick note. We need to change the

20:48

sick note culture so that the

20:50

default becomes what work you can do, not

20:52

what you can't. So, Hannah and Tom, we'll

20:54

get into the details of the speech in a minute,

20:56

but I want to get your initial gut reaction to

20:59

Rishi Sunak's speech and the tone of it. Hannah, first

21:01

of all, how did you feel watching him say what

21:03

he said? I was

21:05

really shocked, actually. It's victimising disabled

21:07

people. I feel like constantly

21:10

we looked at now as the

21:12

enemy or the bad people. And

21:14

saying the word, he used the

21:16

word, quote, lifestyle choice. I think

21:18

that's an insult. Tom,

21:21

he was sort of blurring, wasn't he? His

21:23

sort of definitions or categories of people here

21:25

in the sense that he was

21:27

ostensibly talking about people, perhaps he'd been signed

21:29

off work sick, but it blurred over into

21:31

disability. There was a lot of unspoken stuff

21:33

in here as much as anything else. It

21:36

was a very kind of fuzzy diagnosis of

21:38

what's going on. It kind of

21:40

identified the wrong symptoms. It talked a lot about

21:42

fit notes and sick notes. And actually, in the

21:44

UK, we have a relatively low rate of sickness

21:46

absence of people who are in work. What we

21:48

do have is a lot of people who are

21:50

long-term unemployed, who then have health problems

21:52

and disabilities that have prevented them going

21:54

back to work. And he didn't really

21:57

talk about anything about the kind of root causes of why

21:59

we've seen this. this spike in health problems

22:01

and disability, so you just kind of question

22:03

whether that was true. We will talk about

22:05

why some of that's happened in a moment.

22:08

Just by way of clarity, let's remind ourselves,

22:10

I mean Tom, you mentioned a bit of

22:12

this just now, there are people who are

22:14

temporarily off work and who will receive statutory

22:16

sick pay, at least in theory. They

22:18

are the people who will require fit

22:20

notes or sick notes. Then there are

22:22

people who are unemployed due to long-term

22:24

health problems and require out-of-work sickness benefits

22:26

and some of the soon-act speech definitely

22:28

demonise that group as milk

22:31

in the system. It wasn't all that he

22:33

talked about. There was also mention, quite

22:36

serious mention of proposed changes to

22:38

personal independence payment or PIP, that

22:40

was the speech's major announcement I

22:42

think, that the government will

22:44

launch a consultation on toughening up the

22:46

eligibility criteria for PIP, the personal independence

22:49

payment. Rishis Younak said he

22:51

wanted greater medical evidence, that's what he

22:53

said, about the type and severity of

22:55

mental health conditions. He also

22:57

said that bank transfers, cash

22:59

transfers, could be replaced by therapies

23:02

and treatments. Hannah, you receive PIP,

23:04

don't you? It's fair to say

23:06

that you need it to live.

23:08

Hannah I'm not sure how I would

23:10

manage financially without PIP. I think it's fair

23:12

to say I wouldn't manage financially without PIP.

23:15

Scope say that their research

23:18

shows that on average £975 a month

23:20

are the average extra

23:23

cost that a disabled person

23:25

faces. That feels very reasonable

23:28

to what I experience. Everything

23:30

with disability, there is a disability

23:33

premium or price tag. That

23:36

is the purpose of PIP, personal

23:38

independence payment. It is meant to

23:40

help with those additional costs and

23:43

make life more

23:45

fair, more equal. Obviously, this is a

23:47

consultation period, but it worries me because

23:49

it's not clear who they're going to

23:51

take it away from. If, for

23:53

example, it's, oh, we'll give somebody

23:55

counselling support, well, actually, the NHS

23:58

should be providing counselling support. luck

24:00

with that at the moment. Well, I know that's another story

24:02

we can go on to, but in theory,

24:04

that is what the NHS, for example, is

24:06

there for, that you should be able

24:08

to receive that. In my

24:10

personal situation, I use my

24:13

personal independence payment towards my wheelchair

24:15

accessible vehicle, which I lease through

24:17

the Motability Scheme. And again,

24:19

a wheelchair accessible vehicle, as I'm a power

24:21

chair user, is a very

24:23

expensive piece of equipment. So

24:26

my wheelchair accessible vehicle is a lifeline

24:28

for me. For me, without

24:30

my wheelchair accessible vehicle, I

24:32

couldn't actually get to work. Yeah,

24:35

that's very vivid. I'm lucky that with

24:37

my company, I work hybrid, but still,

24:39

I physically couldn't get to work once

24:41

when I took a wheelchair accessible vehicle that

24:43

I could actually get into when my car

24:46

wasn't, my WAV wasn't working. The

24:48

pain and from actually

24:50

getting there, I then couldn't concentrate at work.

24:52

Plus, the price tag involved was like taking,

24:54

you know, most of my week's wages.

24:57

Tom, one of Rishi's other announcements

25:00

was a plan to stop general practitioners, GPs,

25:02

issuing sick notes for people, right? Do you

25:04

have a sense of how that would work?

25:06

Well, he was talking about the idea that

25:08

you'd have some other professional doing it instead,

25:10

kind of licensed by the DWP. But

25:13

what we've seen time and time again, with any

25:15

kind of reform that involves a kind of DWP

25:17

employed clinician or

25:19

professional making assessments of whether people

25:21

are unwell or disabled enough to

25:23

have access to something is huge

25:25

numbers of appeals because people feel

25:27

that the assessments they're getting around fair and

25:30

inaccurate, often leading to greater costs because those

25:32

appeals are one and people

25:34

eventually get access, but only by kind of

25:36

really battling the system. Because whoever decides now

25:38

will be working according to the government's agenda,

25:40

they'll be much closer to policy, right? Whereas

25:43

a GP, at least in theory, is a

25:45

much more sort of neutral referee and all

25:47

these things. That's the danger, isn't it, clearly?

25:49

Yeah, and that was the implication was that,

25:51

you know, these professionals would be taking a

25:53

broader look at whether people could work, whereas

25:55

GPs are kind of too easily signing people off.

25:57

But again, none of this was presented with any kind of clear

26:00

evidence that that is what's happening at the moment.

26:02

As I said before, we don't have a particularly

26:04

high rate of sickness absence from work. And

26:06

just to say quickly on the point around PIP, I

26:09

mean what really worries me as someone working in mental

26:11

health services is the idea of DWP saying, we're not

26:13

going to give you cash, what we're going to do

26:15

instead is say that you should go and get this

26:17

sort of therapy or this kind of

26:19

support. I mean first of all, as Hannah

26:21

said, that support should already be there if

26:24

that's what someone needs from the NHS. But

26:26

secondly, there's a really worrying, ethical line that

26:28

gets crossed here where people might feel pushed

26:30

towards or kind of compelled to undertake treatment.

26:32

And there's been a real drive within mental

26:34

health services to make sure that people feel

26:36

and have choice and control

26:39

over the treatment they undertake. And so DWP saying,

26:41

well, this is really what you need. It's

26:43

very dubious in mental health practice, I'd never

26:45

put someone under pressure to undertake certain treatment,

26:47

because it's just not ethical. And it's been

26:49

shown to not be effective either. You

26:52

yourself had a period of working in or

26:54

with the DWP. Is that right? I spent

26:56

some time when I was working for Mind

26:58

on secondment at DWP advising on mental health.

27:00

People talk about Treasury orthodoxy, the idea that the

27:02

Treasury just always wants to cut everyone's budgets. Is

27:04

there a DWP orthodoxy that always wants to maximise

27:06

the numbers of people that can kick off benefits

27:08

in one way or another? I mean, I came

27:10

out of my time there with a conviction that

27:12

there was a kind of deep

27:14

rooted institutional cultural problem at

27:17

DWP. Which was? Which

27:19

was they see everything through the lens

27:21

of benefit receipt. So people are seen

27:24

primarily as benefit recipients. And historically, the

27:26

goal has been to move people off

27:28

benefits rather than like help people

27:30

into a job that's going to pay

27:32

well, be secure, have long term prospects. So

27:34

we see this kind of what gets called

27:36

the ABC approach, any job, then a better

27:39

job and then a career. And that's the

27:41

DWP's kind of mantra. But

27:43

In reality, the drive is to get someone into

27:45

any job. There isn't a lot of concern about

27:47

whether they get a better job or a career.

27:49

And What we know is at the lower end

27:52

of the labour market, people tend to remain stuck

27:54

in kind of low paid, insecure work. There isn't

27:56

a lot of progression from those low paid jobs.

28:00

If you squeal division? What? Most nfl the business

28:02

to maximize the number of people, they get off

28:04

benefits as quickly as possible. That's. Kind of

28:06

institutional memory but under universal credit was

28:08

still paying that we have to pay

28:10

up to topple on people's wage as

28:12

because that remaining in low payer. Suicide

28:15

cost effective on that basis knows we certainly

28:17

are do and ant nest that having a

28:19

focus on getting people into better work and

28:22

good jobs and working with someone collaboratively rather

28:24

than just pushing them into the first up

28:26

going would save money in the long term

28:28

both because those be put on more and

28:30

have more prospect the progression. But also we

28:33

know that when the government says work is

28:35

good for your mental health workers could be

28:37

a house. The evidence that she says good

28:39

work is could be a mental health. Poor

28:41

quality work, stressful work, low paid, an insecure

28:43

work can be just. as bathroom and to

28:45

houses being on employed. There. Are

28:48

it seems rising numbers of people experiencing long

28:50

term sickness am and the numbers of people

28:52

on long term sickness benefits has increase in

28:54

line with the over the last he is.

28:57

Figures from the Office for National Statistics show

28:59

that the number of people in activity to

29:01

launch him sit this is now two point

29:04

eight million which is up to into thousand

29:06

from the previous year and up by seven

29:08

hundred thousand. Says to start the pandemic in

29:10

twenty Twenty. Tomasky. This

29:13

festival. Do you understand why that span? Yeah,

29:15

so those numbers were on the rise

29:17

prior to the pandemics. I can't be pinned

29:19

entirely on a pandemic bond outwardly. You

29:21

know the impact of the pandemic, both in

29:23

terms of kind of the long term

29:25

impact on people's mental health, but also things

29:28

like Long Cove at have undoubtedly added to

29:30

this. But that trend that was on

29:32

the rise pre pandemic, I suggest is down

29:34

to things like rising poverty. You know

29:36

yet? Terrorists talked about four million people, expansive

29:39

Rountree Foundation experiencing destitution am in Twenty

29:41

Twenty two, and that. was a two and

29:43

a half times increase from fight his previous

29:45

yes i do you get a society riddled

29:47

with insecure a poverty inequality all as a

29:49

modern social evils you get you get more

29:51

and more people who were railing variously mm

29:54

bundle into that crumbling public services and some

29:56

people struggle to access as possible and aid

29:58

and i saw growing number of people in

30:00

low paid insecure work and all those

30:02

things together, we know that those kind

30:04

of factors do have a negative impact

30:06

on people's mental health. Okay, as people's

30:09

need for help has increased Hannah, has

30:11

it been your experience that it's harder

30:13

to access help in the first place?

30:16

Yeah, I think it is

30:18

challenging to access help.

30:20

I would say that like during

30:22

the pandemic, you know, obviously

30:24

a lot of services and things stop for

30:26

disabled people. So with your question before I

30:28

would echo what Tom said, but I'd also

30:30

think about, you know, some of disabled people

30:33

and people with long term illnesses, there was

30:35

a lot of support and treatments that they

30:37

needed that or need ongoing that they weren't

30:39

able to access during the pandemic, which wouldn't

30:41

have helped their level of

30:43

chronic illness. Yes, a load of people

30:45

would have would have suddenly slid into crisis because

30:47

that help wasn't there. That's a lot of what's

30:50

happening there. Yeah, but in

30:52

terms of help, I would say with disability,

30:55

there's a lot of fighting. It's

30:57

fighting for what you need or what you're entitled

31:00

to give me an example of things that

31:02

you have had to or are having

31:04

to ongoing we fight for my

31:07

wheelchair, for example, my power chair, one

31:09

size doesn't fit or I'm six foot

31:11

one. So I needed a low seat

31:14

floor to seat height in my power chair. Otherwise, I

31:16

can't fit into like any of the wheelchair accessible vehicles.

31:18

And then I can't go out and, you know, I

31:20

can't go to work, I can't see friends have a

31:22

life. And wheelchair

31:24

services, after you've got through the

31:27

months and months and months of kind of the

31:29

waiting list, then it's very much a one size

31:31

fits all. So when soon that floats the idea

31:33

of restricting the eligibility to some of these benefits,

31:35

some of this help that implies people doesn't it

31:38

or on the out will be on the outside

31:40

of the system desperately trying to break into it

31:42

and encountering all those sorts of obstacles, it will

31:44

make lots and lots of people's lives even more

31:46

complicated. Yeah, I think exactly that. And you know,

31:48

what we see is that when it is

31:51

hard for people to get access to the support they need,

31:53

what tends to happen is people have to fight to

31:55

access it like Hannah's describing. And once they

31:57

have it, they're very reluctant to risk losing

32:00

that support. And so you end up with a

32:02

system where the intent from the government is to

32:04

kind of tighten eligibility in order to cut costs.

32:06

But what really happens, and what we've seen over

32:08

the last 15 years of trying

32:10

this approach, is that people kind

32:12

of understandably hunker down and try to protect

32:15

what they have because they're very worried about

32:17

putting their head above the parapet and risking

32:19

engaging with a system that is very punitive,

32:21

that is very conditional, and

32:23

that for most people on benefits is completely

32:25

inadequate. Right, let's talk about what

32:27

seems to be a part of

32:30

the so-called culture wars focused on a lot of

32:32

these issues. I've followed this quite avidly, partly because

32:34

I have a child who's autistic and has

32:36

learning disabilities, so this is very personal for me.

32:38

But I've followed over the last few months what's

32:41

felt like a sort of constant drumbeat

32:44

in right-wing newspaper columns, among other places,

32:46

about the rise in people turning to

32:48

the government for help with disability, long-term

32:50

illnesses, autism, attention deficit,

32:53

and hyperactivity disorder. These

32:55

things have suddenly seemed to be in a lot

32:57

of people's crosshairs, so to speak. And so you

32:59

read people pouring doubt over the idea

33:01

that ADHD is as widespread as it

33:03

seems to be, saying that

33:05

autism is a much-abused diagnosis which people use

33:07

to get benefits that they might not be

33:09

entitled to, questioning the rise

33:12

in young people needing time to take time

33:16

off work for mental health support. I mean, none of

33:18

these things are the

33:20

same, right? But they're all sort of bundled

33:22

together somehow in

33:24

these arguments that seem to come down to the idea

33:27

that lots and lots of people ought to pull themselves

33:29

together. Hannah, have you picked that up? Yes,

33:32

definitely. I think disabled

33:34

people are almost being victimized by the

33:36

government. We are not bad

33:38

people, and I think the

33:41

government are making it look like

33:43

disabled people are just benefit scroungers

33:45

or they're not people

33:47

that are actually bothering in society. Whereas

33:49

I know a lot of disabled people, and

33:53

they're doing their best.

33:55

They're trying, and most disabled people I know

33:57

are going above and beyond what they actually

34:00

probably should. should be doing because there is

34:02

this element of people, you know, going to

34:04

think, oh, they're going to say you can't do that

34:06

because you're disabled. And they're so desperate to

34:08

be seen as as equal. So

34:10

Tom, you've got this sort of combination

34:13

of factors to do with

34:15

very great social changes, the

34:17

effect the pandemic had on people, as you

34:19

talked about earlier, rising poverty and inequality and

34:21

so on at the same time, as

34:24

our sort of medical or scientific understanding of lots

34:26

of things is getting more and more sophisticated. So

34:28

we're understanding that they probably affect more people than

34:30

was hitherto thought and so on. And all of

34:32

those things appear and to the average bureaucrat or

34:34

government minister, that just looks like, oh, God, we're

34:36

gonna have to spend more money, right? And so

34:38

the obvious thing to do is to say, well,

34:40

actually, do you know what, we deny that any

34:42

of this exists. That seems to me to be

34:44

the logic of work, really. It does feel like

34:46

that. And I think, you know, the

34:49

costs are worrying, there's no

34:51

getting around it, we're talking about huge numbers

34:53

of people needing long term support from the

34:55

benefits system. But in part, that's because there's

34:58

been so little done upstream to support people.

35:00

So especially when it comes to things like

35:02

mental health, you know,

35:04

mental health is problems are something that is

35:06

kind of deeply social and circumstantial

35:09

in the sense that if you're living

35:11

in difficult circumstances, you're more likely to

35:13

experience mental health problems. And in turn,

35:15

those circumstances become much harder to endure

35:17

as a result of mental health. So

35:19

there are answers to this. But

35:21

there are things that will be arduous

35:23

and very long haul. So you have

35:26

to build more houses, improve the quality

35:28

of work, be more flexible, as regards

35:30

how the benefit system helps people into work

35:32

and then continues that support for as long

35:34

as it's needed. Let people work some of

35:36

the time, not all of the time, all

35:38

of these things. Exactly those things. It's about,

35:40

you know, creating a society where people are

35:42

supported to stay well in the first place,

35:45

and then are supported even when they are

35:47

unwell to be included and do the things

35:49

they want to do. But that requires kind

35:51

of Forward Planning and Investment and

35:53

Upstream Investment. And I Think where we've got to

35:55

really is. We're seeing the kind of fallout of

35:57

a long period of a lack of investment. In

36:00

Public Services thought was a any

36:02

evidence from anywhere that so of pushing

36:04

people into work in this very so

36:07

of. Exacting, Pew, the

36:09

If way actually works well. There's evidence

36:11

that pushes people into low paid, insecure

36:13

work for even you know the Office

36:15

for Budget Responsibility to some for around

36:18

the government's reforms and they said by

36:20

twenty Twenty Eight Twenty nine they saw

36:22

a over four hundred and fifty thousand

36:24

fewer people would be getting access to

36:26

high array of support and universal credit

36:29

which also comes with kind of protection

36:31

from conditionality. They thought only sixteen thousand

36:33

of that group would move into work

36:35

and Us centers or three percent of.

36:37

That groups what is really means is lots

36:40

of people lose our support. Lots of people

36:42

are subject to a more punitive into morning

36:44

system but even the I Br doesn't expect

36:46

those people to really move back into work

36:49

and gather. Thing to say is that all

36:51

the talk around and mental health going too

36:53

far and people kind of over medicalizing day

36:55

to day concerns that has a real impact

36:57

in the real wow that when a people

37:00

I see in the pack from my practice

37:02

i do on the whole tend to not

37:04

seek support until often is a crisis points

37:06

and if they do seek. Support early

37:08

and often struggle to get us support

37:10

so the idea that everyone's seeking support

37:13

the first opportunity and center on well,

37:15

what tends to happen at She's People

37:17

Despite progress around stigma mental health still

37:19

often only six poll when when he

37:21

becomes untenable not to do otherwise. Why?

37:24

Signs of depression and maddening about this

37:26

release is one of the great. So.

37:28

Of signs of social progress in this

37:30

country in the last ten years? maybe

37:33

as being the fact that people will

37:35

talk now very eloquently about their own

37:37

mental health is of a Capri people

37:39

apps people didn't ask. Twenty

37:41

thirty forty years ago, they really didn't and

37:43

that's a good thing Rise partly because of

37:45

of of the online world in the fight

37:47

with some Lila it to the fact that

37:49

people's sap up from they be the same

37:52

five slots for the people who got the

37:54

same issues, rights and z so noisy some

37:56

the government point and completely the opposite directions

37:58

is like a denial really. of progress

38:00

that is most obvious? Yeah, it's

38:02

really sad to see. I mean, ever since I've been working on mental

38:04

health, which is kind of 15 years now, I

38:08

have seen real progress in terms

38:10

of not people always getting the support they need,

38:13

but certainly more people feeling able to speak out

38:15

and say that they're struggling. And I

38:17

think a message from the government that says, well, actually

38:19

we think it's all gone too far and people are

38:21

saying they're struggling, but actually they're fine, is

38:24

really regressive and a real shame considering all

38:26

the hard work and effort that went into,

38:29

reducing that stigma and making people feel more

38:32

comfortable. Hannah, just quickly, how do you feel

38:34

about the future, the immediate future? Very

38:36

worried and scared. I mean,

38:38

a lot

38:41

of things ride on these decisions

38:43

and this consultation that's going on.

38:46

And things like

38:48

working, things like, actually

38:51

having a bit of a quality of life, like disabled

38:53

people and whether it's mental health,

38:56

physical health, they are people

38:58

not, they've not done anything wrong. They,

39:00

you know, the whole point of the

39:02

system in the UK is that it

39:04

should be there if and when people

39:06

need it. And I

39:08

don't understand why disabled people are

39:11

being attacked so much. And in that

39:13

sense, this is a conversation about politics,

39:15

it's most urgent and visceral. Thank you

39:17

both for talking to us. Thank

39:19

you. Thank you for

39:21

listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If

39:23

you did, make sure you subscribe to Politics

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Weekly UK, wherever you get your podcasts. This

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episode was produced by Frankie Toby. The music

39:30

is by Axel Kakutyeh and the executive producers

39:32

are Matt Eptarz and Nicole Jacks. This

39:37

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