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save

1:04

hello you're listening to the rebels august and

1:07

, was

1:10

, and

1:14

the next prime minister houston when the totally

1:16

to shoot my son who's gonna be in that cabinet and

1:18

will not really include john redwood but

1:20

what about the loser i took a look took

1:22

history and what was

1:25

she saying that all his trust might lived

1:27

for the once we know the result as

1:29

that honest about that last

1:32

other we have about that first

1:34

today is clovis ambridge

1:42

now it's time for off a report the show

1:44

are all star column his family's time

1:46

to talk to some of the best names in the business

1:49

of today we have to be perverse from the times morning living

1:51

morning and

1:54

, commit from the new statesman money racial

1:56

morning how you both doing this morning

1:58

hiding them

2:00

i've just been doing the cats

2:03

were meds

2:03

salem ss better

2:06

better to be doing this something and they sold you

2:08

fleet street will be old lama living

2:10

and rachel

2:13

how's your bug hold of in suffer

2:15

my cat just try to eat the phone

2:17

the i'm using to record that

2:18

the a to america do

2:20

we just want to make this some sort of feline counseling

2:22

sessions

2:23

i think so yeah

2:25

oh dear oh dear oh

2:27

dear and well as get into

2:29

it shall we are we could talk about cats or

2:31

morning i'm sure i'm not a cop found several lamp

2:34

alla you know keep my keep my pennies to

2:36

myself said to prevent

2:38

myself from upsetting you let his dad

2:40

sold rachel about be column you've

2:42

picked up this morning or of yours but from shot

2:45

i've is in the sunday times yes they are

2:47

, we failing the young in

2:49

this country i saw this ad this column got

2:51

a lot of love on twitter ah

2:54

saliva as a similar to

2:56

me actually talking about how

2:59

not to twenty somethings are looking at

3:01

britain functional interview

3:04

and concluding that they shouldn't do their

3:06

commercial thing give working hard

3:08

saving to buy a house sat climbing

3:11

the professional to the greasy

3:13

pole because there was that with as

3:15

previous generations and charlottesville there

3:18

anymore

3:22

hello

3:22

oh yes i'm it's

3:25

not it's not just in her a has he hit

3:27

you that ah it's that it

3:29

is it's a trend that kind of the widely written about

3:31

but i when people t y about it

3:33

the responses all entitled young

3:35

people who want to be handed everything

3:38

and then you look at the that the numbers

3:40

and quite how stock situation

3:42

sees it , describing

3:44

is the idea that you can be earning

3:47

, eerie high

3:49

salaries so you know and over

3:53

forty thousand and eight over fifty thousand cubic

3:55

awful adding that and you'll chunk of

3:57

being able see you buy a house

3:59

the family kind of grow up in that

4:02

age has been completely

4:04

decimated so kind

4:06

of what's the point and if you've

4:08

got lots of professionals in in sectors

4:11

like banking or law

4:13

is in the civil service who a guy yeah

4:16

i could work really hard but i'm never

4:18

going to be able to cheese icing because the housing

4:20

market completely broken up

4:22

my student loan repayments mean i'm

4:25

paying a marginal tax rate of over fifty

4:27

percent ah childcare this

4:29

country is outrageously expensive have

4:31

to basically what's the point

4:34

a nice has has a system ah

4:36

it it it it doesn't really bode well

4:38

no i imagine that not new much sympathy

4:41

for this with people outside

4:43

of that generation but what i would say

4:45

is if even that classes

4:47

of kind of middle class professionals

4:50

a feeling this despondent about

4:52

the state of the country it doesn't really inspire

4:54

much hope about where we could be

4:56

what would what libby d sympathize with the

4:58

case that young people are getting a raw deal from

5:01

effort politics and politics and economy

5:03

in britain today or to they stop moaning

5:07

i absolutely sympathize with

5:09

looks all it says and what i love is the fact

5:11

that we're starting to get young

5:13

writers columnist from something

5:16

, as the right to the something seen as not

5:18

the lefty wing media pointing

5:20

this out on saying this and what is fascinating

5:23

is the idea that the conservatives think they can ever

5:25

win an election again with

5:27

these young voters and we we have habit

5:30

decade more of conservative government hasn't

5:32

six the nhs haven't fixed broken

5:34

house market power security haven't

5:36

leveled up deprived areas look at at lucas

5:38

this morning we're still you know an

5:40

absolute haven for dirty foreign

5:43

money from dodgy regimes

5:45

and dodgy people and then dodgy lawyers

5:48

it's absolutely filthy even

5:50

if even conservative commentators are fed up

5:52

and started to cool things like re nationalizing

5:54

energy as they are on the front of the packs a day

5:57

who wouldn't vote for change

5:59

i think the idea that politicians

6:02

have simply failed to see this and

6:04

think they can carry on with boris style

6:07

and hostile boosterism

6:09

of this is a wonderful country we are proud to

6:11

be here are not look around them

6:13

and see how things are especially for the rising

6:15

generation and especially regarding the

6:17

housing market and are enormous

6:20

gap as see and valukas again

6:22

this morning enormous gap or

6:24

wealth and income in it so

6:26

many families have absolutely no savings

6:29

or tiny little savings and it can be hit

6:31

hard this winter it has to be some

6:33

kind of change i'm i'm i'm very

6:35

encouraged thoughts the young

6:37

of the middle class and potentially right

6:40

wing a starting to say oil this one

6:42

do rachel , what you think

6:44

you know list trust trust will

6:46

be overseen up when they arrive in number

6:48

ten on monday what can they do you know

6:50

they'll be reading condoms i shudder to be reading comes

6:52

up robert culver's in the sunday times as

6:54

yesterday he he made a a very similar argument

6:57

a talking about how actually if you

6:59

look at the economic privileges and

7:01

and the a the you know the marginal tax rates

7:04

a worker whose sixty will enjoy compared

7:06

to a working on the same salary who's twenty

7:08

five you know the numbers speak for themselves what

7:10

they want to think what could they do on

7:12

day walden to in

7:15

a widow their com as isis dot charlotte

7:17

and robert or you know just to to

7:19

address this problem what the practical constructive

7:21

things that they can do

7:23

the number one thing that would help it wouldn't

7:25

fix everything with help would be

7:27

liberalizing the plumbing system and

7:29

building more how this building on brownfield building

7:32

family homes slots a satellite

7:34

cities city the round three

7:36

thinking about the green belt land which is not

7:38

always that the green rolling field

7:40

a lot of the is kind of deceased car parks

7:42

and brownfield sites that have been decimated

7:45

green i'm i'm just making

7:47

sure that those project actually happened the

7:49

issue is i don't think either of them either list

7:51

was overseas you know we'll we'll see that

7:53

because we've had twelve years of of conservative

7:56

politicians who actually do believe

7:58

ideologically that it be great

7:59

we had more housing but then sort

8:02

of cough against acute nimbyism

8:04

the original i try to do of course and

8:06

able to

8:06

try to i know is that was of widespread opposition

8:08

to and i think this is articulated beautifully

8:11

sorry single her out but by the mp

8:13

miracle pill who is a conservative

8:16

a junior minister who will happily

8:18

tweet pictures of herself in fields

8:20

say i'm so excited i i

8:22

helped block the initiative is horrible

8:24

initiative that would have a naval you

8:27

know all of these families to have homes on his lovely

8:29

his lovely lovely greenfield isn't

8:31

being used everything i'm susie dot

8:34

as well with a solar farm let with and

8:36

energy closer and they i think as long

8:38

as that possible as long as local residents

8:41

have the power but that much pressure on

8:43

there and he's nimbyism to to block

8:45

things and to say we'll we'll we'll it quite

8:47

happy with our houses now so we don't actually want

8:49

anyone else living mirror as long

8:52

as i have up our nothing is going to get

8:54

though so i think we should actually we frame

8:56

house building or something patriotic it if

8:58

you really love your country and you really

9:00

believe in the future of britain and productivity

9:03

and growth on the next generation

9:05

having opportunities that you did maybe

9:07

sacrifice a tiny bit of your view

9:09

so the a young family couldn't can get

9:11

a hub otherwise you're not really patriotic

9:14

a tool and so are you just self

9:15

what you regularly

9:17

well and tax commercial

9:19

say am i agree with a lot of that they will also say

9:22

i'm tax basically see

9:24

the the lock on pens

9:26

certainly for the most

9:28

affluent is not appropriate

9:31

i drove my pension or simply because it is

9:33

a way of good

9:33

quite a lot of it away and fulfilled government

9:36

to give you twenty five percent

9:37

they stayed on compliments i'm

9:39

a it's absurd we we need

9:42

we need higher taxes on the richest

9:44

on the most affluence and them the

9:47

idea that little for the sleep overs overseas

9:49

and most just concept of them work unless

9:51

the here no wait we'd need we need

9:53

a massive massive leveling up

9:55

i'm dumb as the i it is doesn't

9:58

have to be sources the

10:00

night socialism but it is

10:02

absolutely that the blindness

10:04

of the conservative party the last twelve years

10:06

to this has been astonishing i'm tony

10:08

blair didn't do that much good before either

10:11

rachel

10:13

do you think do you have any faith when you look

10:15

at both contenders that they are live

10:18

to these challenges or you know isn't see what you just

10:20

said you know tory mps who know deep

10:23

down ideologically that the

10:26

only answer these questions are at their fingertips boats

10:29

they are

10:30

there have been sent is it that pitching towards

10:32

i i told them she was older lives in the shy

10:34

as bots the have none i'm never gonna be rewarded

10:36

a politically the stays in the race mean of who knows what

10:39

they'll do want when they go into office where they are are

10:41

in a pack towards these concerts

10:43

solutions but they're never going to be rewarded in

10:45

in moments like these all day for saying

10:48

unpopular things to their to their membership

10:50

no i think they have is very clear idea

10:53

that older , vote

10:55

and they emulate vote conservative and they are

10:57

so panicked about whether or not

10:59

though when the next election that that's what they're focusing

11:01

on my think there's this mythology

11:03

in the conservative party that people naturally

11:06

become more conservative more likely to vote

11:08

to rich as they get older so it doesn't

11:10

matter of young people today don't support

11:12

them because yeah eventually they'll get older it and they

11:14

will and they what's missing from the analysis

11:17

is if you deny people the opportunities

11:19

of adulthood of owning a home

11:21

of starting a family of putting down roots

11:24

of not spending fifty percent of your income renting

11:26

a room and a dodgy house your of if

11:28

you don't give people that chance

11:30

that sort of transition why

11:32

would they they see a so i think the

11:34

next election they'll probably be a cake the way

11:36

the age demographics work to

11:39

put to death but about you hospital benchley

11:41

those older voters are not going to be voting anymore

11:44

and they are not being replaced at the moment on

11:46

i think not an existential challenge

11:47

the tory party

11:49

how on album older versa com

11:51

i just come i just actually way in

11:53

hell i am seventy two years old

11:55

i'm i'm a furious as anybody

11:57

so aura great mass of my friends

11:59

and people have my own age when

12:02

we can see the problems we can

12:04

see what's wrong we actually

12:06

we we we we absolutely agree with this

12:08

am the idea that they love those he's

12:10

older people who are all conservative voters

12:12

is just nonsense am i hope that

12:15

an awful us on the gonna give a seriously bloody nose

12:17

to the party at the next election and i

12:19

don't know whether labour will be a good government or

12:21

not but if the conservatives really

12:24

deserves something it is a big slap from

12:26

much

12:26

ration is , problem

12:28

not broader than the considers is it not problem

12:31

rachel with our political culture

12:33

more generally that not terribly good at thinking

12:35

about things in the long term because long term

12:37

be infrastructure projects be it and

12:40

big structural changes to how this country was

12:42

tend to involve a bit of pain on

12:44

they are unpopular so no government

12:46

unless they have a massive majority is

12:48

able to make the structural change anyone's or johnson

12:50

one is landslide and twenty nineteen he couldn't

12:53

do stuff like planning reform because

12:55

tory mps

12:57

picked up a massive forces and all the promises

12:59

that eighty seat majority for big structure lasting

13:01

change very very quickly evaporated

13:03

i did i definitely a some as are not

13:06

just with the conservatives either that that video

13:08

of arctic air a daily when he was

13:10

in the coalition government were cameron and

13:12

a nick clegg post talking about how

13:14

they weren't going to authorize ah

13:17

extra , sites and nuclear power stations

13:20

and things back in twenty

13:22

twelve that would have helped secure

13:24

britain's britain's energy security

13:27

in ten years' time while ten years time is now

13:29

if they made those decisions now a kid

13:31

is that wouldn't be and government but we will say wouldn't

13:34

be facing the energy crisis that

13:36

we are at the moment so i think there

13:38

is some any she

13:40

was thinking long term and strategically

13:43

i'm not as kind of across the political spectrum

13:45

are all parties or government countries

13:48

that do it well the all good at building

13:50

lungs and infrastructure projects often

13:52

has ah another mechanism

13:54

another institution of a government

13:56

that to bit more long term of citizens assemblies

13:59

or the i'm kind of institution

14:01

that is set up a in order to hover

14:04

a long term political goal and that is

14:06

what pushes it through not the politicians

14:08

who elected day today because they are always

14:10

gonna be thinking in four five year cycles

14:13

nothin ten years twenty years and i

14:15

think one of the reasons we are in such a wretched

14:17

position looking and see this this autumn

14:19

and winter is because of a failure to

14:21

make decisions that seemed politically unpopular

14:23

a decade ago the actually and and home

14:25

it absolutely what we should have done to agree

14:27

libya or politicians too quick to kick

14:30

comes down the road

14:32

absolutely always we have

14:34

been but all the same ah

14:37

there is a responsibility on and these are responsible

14:39

jobs they have to look at the long term sometimes

14:42

they have to

14:43

give up a bit of cheap popularity

14:45

for long term

14:47

hunting and i'd have happened at times

14:49

in the past history it should be happening

14:51

again i have more faith in

14:54

if i have faith in any them i have more faith and so not

14:56

gonna do endless

14:56

he has shown in all the

14:59

things he said that he is

15:01

willing to look for

15:02

idly on further ahead and

15:04

do the pond sums better than

15:06

she is

15:08

you're not gonna win is

15:10

that was rachel can live on the be clear this time

15:12

to had to have on the issue of terrorist

15:16

attacks , discussions thus agree libyans

15:18

times quarter of

15:20

next week so losers in

15:22

british politics

15:27

the exodus you're fully immersed

15:29

in your podcast because in the back of your mind

15:31

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15:34

supposed to be or stressing the keep everyone

15:36

updated on next steps meet monday

15:38

dot com or work management platform that

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in twenty twelve a british journalist

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was kidnapped by the islamic state

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he reappears two years later

16:31

presenting isis

16:32

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16:34

own governments i'm going to reveal choose

16:36

some uncomfortable truths did

16:38

can the times war correspondent

16:40

anthony lloyd investigates what

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has anyone ever come to ask you about

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what happens john

16:47

the full theories of last man standing

16:50

is out now wherever you get your podcast

17:00

you are listening to the times redbox policies podcast now it's

17:02

time for this the big see

17:13

the time next week we'll have lack

17:16

of , the outcome of the tory leadership

17:18

rights and in the polls and to save some pay

17:20

the to be believed less trust trust

17:22

going to be the one his on her way to meet the

17:25

queen what's gonna happen pretty soon

17:27

i currently live trust said the polls are wrong

17:29

the opposite result is when

17:31

we got next monday humbled by that colleagues

17:33

will they be on their way to the cabinet in a junior

17:36

role or senior roles for

17:38

, biggest about that she's all for that

17:40

believing politics altogether will resist

17:42

the not be heading back to the beaches of

17:44

santa monica well well

17:47

is he not the man who is widely assumed will not

17:50

be winning the seats left and told the bbc

17:52

that despite revista the country

17:55

he plans to say pop or absolutely no

17:57

of course know and i are not under eye

17:59

on

17:59

the defeated the characterization

18:02

right i'm working incredibly hard

18:04

going around the country talking about my dad's

18:06

the the future and actually having a very

18:08

positive reception where i'm going

18:10

and i think there's everything left to play for

18:13

the , weeks to run in this campaign

18:15

and that's why i'm continue to give me everything

18:17

i got got history of course is

18:19

written by the victors the you're

18:22

answering the city quest on this show those who run

18:24

for the top job and then lose all

18:26

then forgotten shafted

18:28

by posterity others however and

18:30

i'm leaving just as big a mark on that parties

18:33

and policies at westminster as the politicians

18:35

who beat them so today as soon i can to

18:37

support his contemplate their future in government

18:40

out of government or our policies altogether

18:42

we're asking what kind of a loser he

18:44

might be more kind of a loser liz truss might be

18:46

and how others in westminster over

18:48

the past six decades have shown that missing

18:51

out missing a leadership elections need not

18:53

bbn now to any me to talk

18:55

through all of this is a man who

18:57

see most of the people to be talking about inaction

18:59

of close the webster former political editor

19:02

of the times morning bill

19:03

the morning at no less

19:06

in the nineteen sixties which

19:08

is that is just before you're working careers agenda

19:11

spill but some of the players did that did stick around

19:13

after that whoop would start with a very very

19:15

first contested tory leadership

19:17

election nineteen sixty five

19:20

ted heath one reggie maudlin came second

19:22

in a very very distant third was

19:24

a maverick former minister by the

19:26

name of enoch powell elite

19:29

if he thought that result was gonna assert

19:31

his authority over powell he was very much

19:33

mistaken of the next decade the paddock came

19:35

bitter bitter rivals and powell

19:37

seat every opportunity to undermine

19:40

undies stabilize his leader and prime

19:42

minister most notably of course when

19:44

he gave the infamous rivers of blood speech

19:46

in nineteen sixty eight he sat

19:48

him for them

19:49

i just moved mr power from

19:51

the shadow cabinet because i believe

19:54

that his speech was in cemetery

19:56

and liable to damage race relations

19:58

in this conflict i

19:59

i'm determined to do everything i

20:02

can to prevent racial problems

20:04

developing

20:09

the read him and with tolerated

20:12

margaret thatcher on why she

20:14

thought

20:15

in where did that

20:17

remember headley mail on sunday morning

20:19

because it's all of the sunday papers

20:22

say innocuous go and i said look i will it

20:24

i wouldn't as weight and ,

20:26

read those speech and just a think

20:28

about it for a few days days

20:30

know him as him at once has

20:33

him once go and i gathered later

20:35

that have been resignations was how to come

20:37

to the not hadn't gone i

20:39

thought it was hadn't gone jump too far

20:42

too rapidly if you looked at the

20:44

logic and reason in his speech

20:46

he was also a thorn in said

20:48

he side of a europe so much so that he

20:50

ended up endorsing the labour party in

20:53

nineteen seventy four

20:54

students were paying you

21:02

yeah that was enoch powell endorsing

21:04

harold wilson's later because they unlike

21:06

it's had he for offering a referendum on

21:08

your fell

21:09

paul with the archetype will rebel

21:12

wasn't he in a never got the top job himself

21:14

so he took the nuclear option of a

21:17

rather than lose and having to serve in

21:19

the cabinet of a leader he thought

21:21

was wrong about basically everything he

21:23

became a a serial malcontent on

21:25

the backbenches sowing discord and and

21:28

and taking that nuclear option and

21:30

and and rebelling on every on every

21:32

question did

21:34

yea his was one of the sort of

21:36

saddest the power to the

21:38

in the second set of a top

21:40

line politician was taken really

21:43

took himself off the scene

21:45

for so long an anarchist

21:47

the the the nineteen sixty eight speech

21:50

although

21:51

very controversial was quite

21:53

popular in the country at

21:56

the time and it was popular with wide lot

21:58

of his colleagues power they believe

22:00

that he should have her top job ah

22:03

, there was an element of calculation and

22:05

making that speech a cause he didn't

22:07

get it he got sacked and then

22:10

then voters to go for labour

22:13

was the ultimate sin

22:15

and and certainly margaret thatcher would not

22:17

have been able to support him any longer

22:20

after that he then of course

22:22

he m he advised people

22:24

to he advised labour some people think he

22:26

was that might even have

22:28

been a factor in labor's victory very

22:31

narrow victory and every seventy four

22:34

and then in the october seventy four

22:36

election there was pow standing

22:39

to the ulster unionists he'd completely

22:41

gone from the tory party ended up really

22:44

making the speeches

22:46

and from the backbenches for another thirteen

22:49

years after that before he finally

22:52

went on but really

22:54

have wasted career

22:55

but precisely because he was so unwilling

22:57

to broke any compromise with his own i

23:00

caught idiosyncratic principles

23:02

, a and across the floor another

23:05

euroskeptic tony band played much the same

23:07

role in the labour party known the

23:09

harold wilson he been a technocratic modernizing

23:11

minister behind the post office tower and

23:13

concord but by the time he loses in nineteen

23:16

seventy six and that leadership election jim callaghan

23:18

one he was wearing last and as

23:20

far as his colleagues were concerned veering off the reservation

23:22

his roy hattersley

23:24

on his at evolution

23:26

as a politician a number of

23:28

factor made it possible for demagogues

23:31

by demagogues i principally mean taliban

23:34

to , this is what is wrong with

23:37

when i voted your leaders betray you

23:39

go leaders are really toys in disguise

23:42

disguise never genuine socialism

23:45

is always capitalism dressed

23:47

up to look like something different levels

23:49

for to see it wasn't in opposition to it

23:52

was opposition to itself he was those the internal

23:54

opposition are there was opposition are

23:57

war in the very real sense of attempts

23:59

and here's another lifelong

24:02

rebel or rather a

24:05

you know some an apostate almost fell

24:07

he goes from being a a

24:09

a minister the top rank or perhaps more

24:11

senior the op how was as a as a minister

24:13

and becoming gay

24:16

a rabble rouser a demagogue is

24:18

roy houses the pulsar and opposing the

24:20

leadership his own party abita

24:22

yeah i mean that ben was a great parliamentarian

24:25

and he had almost fifty years in the house

24:27

of commons but key to

24:29

wanted to be leader and thought he should

24:32

be leader and he realized his only

24:34

way of becomingly that was on the

24:36

back of the the left so

24:38

yes he lost in seventy six but at

24:41

probably even or famously he'd lost in

24:43

nineteen eighty one when he

24:45

stood up against denis healey

24:47

for the deputy leadership election

24:50

and haley beat him narrowly had

24:53

been one that election politics

24:56

would have been a lot different i think he would then

24:58

have been in prime position

25:01

to , leader later on but

25:04

from that moment on he was a malcontent

25:06

we still got a wonderful speeches

25:09

in the commons commons listen to ask and

25:13

entertained and lot of us who had to spend our

25:15

lives and reporting politics

25:18

that he was gonna that he is

25:20

instead a couple of times for the leadership after

25:22

them and got totally to rise

25:24

or a boat certainly not he died yet he was a

25:26

challenge connect the name is absolutely crushed they

25:29

did and any late at ago i think against

25:31

the blair witch was just a nominal challenge

25:33

but i'm and he got

25:35

how they any votes tool but he enjoyed himself

25:38

and he was it his way he was he

25:40

was quite lie i had a

25:42

silly is right in rocky represented

25:44

east's he

25:46

, like by the the leadership but

25:48

he was quite popular but m p's on both

25:50

sides and that's it i'm

25:53

with it i'm a common theme emerging here

25:55

it's people once they

25:58

look at top office you know path

25:59

the hell

26:01

fifty five then when sixty

26:03

eight the least he didn't fall into his lap after rivers

26:05

of blood you looking at ben seventy

26:08

six eighty one eighty eight they're not getting

26:10

the top job so they'd sort of sorts of plow

26:12

their own for oh they find appreciative audience

26:14

elsewhere so let's stick with labour

26:16

than there is another option of course rather than

26:19

finding a nice in westminster becoming a backbench

26:21

malcontent you can just leave all together you'll

26:23

remember phil bryant gold he was a bright

26:25

young thing ah we lost our

26:28

john smith and ninety ninety two

26:30

then before long he left for new zealand

26:32

and left british policies in saudi

26:34

yeah well he is strange

26:36

case of brian go would he be born

26:39

in new zealand came came over here

26:41

got it's got the class degree

26:43

at to or to the men tried to take

26:45

over the labour party and

26:48

, he failed he stood

26:50

against damn john smith

26:52

in the ninety two election election

26:54

under very soon afterwards thought well i'll

26:57

go back to new zealander i failed in that

26:59

bid to take over britain or go back to

27:01

new zealand he became vice chancellor the university

27:03

of them why car to add

27:06

i should add hair know many people notice that

27:08

bronze brother wayne is

27:10

credited with popularizing to

27:12

do go i don't if you know that turn on

27:14

a trick you know what i was very timid he was very even

27:17

mind you have reminded me of that

27:19

that they they have eaten a he left the much

27:21

more consequential mark i'm british british guy

27:23

probably like and british papers than that than

27:25

his brother at that his brother brian did more famous

27:27

still on the subject to brothers

27:30

is david miliband of course com

27:32

ip i can make a difference i came into politics

27:35

to make a difference and now i'm leaving

27:37

british politics to make a difference on

27:39

means national level through

27:42

a charity rather than through a government

27:44

that was david miller been explaining why he quit

27:47

ah british politics quit parliament

27:49

in twenty thirteen fill you will write in

27:51

the thick of it during this period admit

27:53

have been dead want david miliband on his front bench

27:56

when bench when when the leadership he wanted

27:58

to make him shadow chancellor tiny but day [unk] that

28:00

know was obvious from the word go

28:02

the david miller bomb was gonna leave politics with this

28:04

just a case of david being unwilling to swallow

28:06

his pride or of , to

28:08

have fundamental disagreements over how the labour party

28:10

should work but was there ever as

28:13

far as you could say covering it this all from westminster

28:15

the time you to cases

28:17

were not if david was going to leave politics

28:20

er yeah i think from the from the moment

28:22

i mean david thought he was gonna win and

28:24

he was overconfident am

28:27

and it is of as

28:29

you should have followed the kremlin kremlinology

28:32

the of it all at the time had david

28:35

i'm , on the quiet

28:37

the red bulls would have been his

28:39

chancellor or shadow chancellor in oppositional

28:42

government i don't think ed

28:44

miliband would have one one

28:46

he wouldn't do that he didn't want to make a deal

28:48

with at balls at that at i

28:51

gordon brown in the background was wanting

28:54

didn't want david miliband to win the

28:56

want to dead milliband to dead despite

28:59

the fact that ed balls at work for analysts

29:01

time to win the result came and he

29:03

he lost by sliver there

29:05

was no way that david could stay

29:08

with stay because he knew rightly

29:10

that from day one there would have

29:12

we would all have been writing stories

29:14

and they would have been genuine true stories

29:16

about differences with his brother so

29:19

he's hung about on the backbenches for a couple

29:21

of years and then went off to years

29:23

an international rescue committee

29:26

and he stayed there for committee long long time but he

29:29

time in my opinions and that was and great

29:31

loss the labour party at

29:33

the time i think he would have done better than

29:35

his brother at leading it

29:38

and i think what the outcome

29:40

in twenty fifteen might well have been

29:42

different if david had been

29:45

leading the labour party will never know that

29:47

but i understood his doesn't it wasn't

29:49

idly pride , think

29:51

it was that it was a knowledge that if he stayed

29:54

on add it's life

29:56

would be impossible and it

29:58

would be very difficult for the label

29:59

yeah he was any you neatly invidious

30:02

position not only disagreeing with the court that labour

30:04

party was charting but , being

30:06

is being his younger brother that set

30:08

it at to a situation totally without parole

30:10

and bus political history history

30:12

and so now we're looking at people who look

30:15

at westminster look the situation their own party's think

30:17

and you might be brine golden think bush

30:19

policies on nothing left the name of the other top job

30:22

you might be david miliband looking

30:24

at the situation thinking well this

30:26

is a total nightmare or he might

30:28

be the burn i

30:31

got very frustrated and westminster off a lot of love

30:33

with the place

30:34

the way it works it come

30:36

up with i think it makes a fraud are people

30:38

in that it makes people say things they don't fully believe

30:40

in making both ways they don't

30:42

softly field and

30:44

consequently people ,

30:46

up i've been getting lost in the westminster

30:48

system and the happened to me to some some degree

30:51

so when you come back to a role like this and you can

30:53

com com what you're all

30:55

about and he don't give the of the

30:58

sunday burnham of course fill

31:00

at rental at least twice and least ten

31:03

time it came a distant at competition for

31:06

said didn't he and then twenty

31:08

fifteen he was name is the favorite that somehow

31:10

lost to jeremy corbyn and

31:12

had and new happy couple of years on jeremy corbyn

31:14

from thanks for then turned seventeen was elected the

31:16

mayor of great was elected and as enjoyed this great

31:19

like career in a song says the so

31:21

called king of the north and his instinct

31:23

andy burnham how day and escape read the

31:26

other politicians before and didn't have in that

31:28

that evolution settlement gave him a big

31:30

job gave him a platform that he could

31:32

then build an alternative powerbase rather

31:34

than languishing on about benches or making unhappy

31:36

compromises and serving under light or the labor leaders

31:39

didn't

31:40

andy andy a did

31:42

well in the end out of out of failing

31:44

in those two leadership elections and i

31:47

suppose most people would think he's donna a

31:49

solid job as as mayor of manchester

31:52

interestingly of course when them kiss

31:54

starmer was am facing

31:57

a potential fine over over

32:00

the gate masses and

32:02

there was talk fan of bringing and

32:04

the bag of course he couldn't come

32:06

back in those circumstances because

32:09

he wasn't named p under the under the rules

32:11

the government but he's one of those mps

32:14

one of those leadership figures who

32:16

gone off and , a much bigger

32:18

name for himself by being

32:21

out of westminster and

32:23

they are the i belgian his example

32:25

will be followed by others that they

32:27

there are more mirror normal mayor elections

32:30

now taking place i think that

32:32

maybe an escape route from lot more

32:34

politicians labor as well as conservative

32:36

in the future who knows what'll happen after

32:39

this particular leadership election

32:41

going on now on finally

32:43

just before we discuss

32:45

the future as you say fill there

32:47

is another option apparently

32:50

we don't see this very often and that's staying

32:52

loyal and that's will receive insists he's guys table

32:54

discuss that more and just a melbourne let's

32:56

listen to one

32:57

rebellious leader in waiting the perhaps the most

32:59

famous of the mall ultimately ended

33:03

i have been asked to reply smell

33:05

and deputy speaker this is another story

33:07

moments may i welcome

33:09

the right honorable gentleman to his first

33:12

prime minister's questions been

33:15

a long time but he's finally made

33:17

him

33:19

that's right photo the right

33:21

honorable gentleman for us is

33:23

welcome to have my positions dispatch

33:25

box today

33:27

well that of course is michael heseltine

33:29

doing pam cues because he ended his front

33:31

line career as john major's

33:33

loyal deputy of course he was partly constrained

33:36

by health problems that ultimately

33:38

man he couldn't run against the tory leadership

33:40

after unsuccessfully chomsky margaret thatcher

33:42

and ninety and ninety hearts out of course

33:46

the end filled unit he's a man

33:48

of great greater forty

33:50

the ambition book was he i

33:52

a good and faithful and loyal servants john major

33:54

the and

33:55

it was only in the the ipad

33:58

with michael heseltine honor at

34:00

another time radio show just recently

34:02

and he he made the point

34:04

there which is quite right that he

34:07

, hurd and major had thought that

34:09

ninety contest in in

34:12

way in way civilized

34:14

way in way friendly way that meant that whoever

34:16

won would have offered jobs

34:18

to the other two and that's

34:21

precisely what happened and

34:24

is is he knew that he couldn't win

34:26

at that point the the next

34:29

best for him was to take a place

34:31

in the cabinet the other huge part in

34:34

getting , of the am the poll

34:36

tax tax he may

34:38

he left his he left his mark

34:42

and major the

34:44

clearly because by appointing

34:46

him deputy he was taking any possible

34:48

the future rivalry

34:50

out rivalry out the way and has or time

34:52

enjoyed quite a few years in that

34:54

role and it was major who had to or

34:57

of course take the brunt of the nineteen seventy

35:00

nineteen ninety seven slaughter at the

35:02

advantage of labor so has will time

35:04

had of a bit at a he had

35:06

of one i remember going to interview in english wonderful

35:09

plush office he had as a as

35:11

deputy prime minister and another sanctum when

35:13

you didn't do too badly did you and you he laughed

35:15

at that point i'm so he

35:18

his was a rather classy way out

35:20

of not getting the top job now let's also

35:23

bringing casey balls from the spectator morning

35:25

cases

35:26

warning now let's assume

35:28

let's assume polling is telling us that the see

35:30

the case and this is certainly the wishes simpson

35:33

in both camps despite the

35:35

spin at that receives do not to misses

35:38

out by whatever margin next monday

35:40

what are you hearing about what he's going to do

35:43

so i think the

35:46

big question resorts mp

35:47

iraq is it actually does he stay in the comments

35:50

and it is safe for have on now

35:52

i think it's clear from what is your comments they

35:55

would not have a quick exit

35:57

he will educate and definitely stays

35:59

in and

35:59

our planet at the very least

36:02

into the next blacks and i think

36:04

if you speak played grace viciously that are found

36:06

in a hitler stay long time even after

36:08

that

36:08

election

36:10

people say things and as you just been hearing

36:13

and when it comes to

36:15

that the history of as we know because

36:17

his liquor any david cameron ah

36:19

a few com

36:20

see how people can change their

36:22

minds i think in terms of

36:25

ever see tech personality i'd

36:27

i would be surprised to see as let's trust

36:30

and biggest problem back and i think

36:32

a a blonde

36:33

it'll or a some simple athlete

36:35

problematic in the sense that

36:38

listen

36:39

that is quite straight

36:41

laced

36:41

that many ways and level have

36:43

them defenses but i can't quite see

36:45

him right now at least having this

36:48

year power base where you you're

36:50

trying to cause of these problems i

36:52

think you will have principles and that kids

36:54

at mean some rebellion for some issues

36:56

that for example decided that he would have voted

36:59

down and the project has ever going

37:01

to happen because if you that you the confidence

37:03

matter and and he does not want to deal which

37:06

could be looking for your blowing up conservative

37:08

yeah i guess he was you know his his

37:10

supporters are wondering aloud i'll

37:12

be off the record that they may end

37:14

up voting against mistresses

37:16

tax cuts was you say that's a huge step

37:18

for any and haystack if they want to retain

37:21

the yeah the party whip and

37:23

also we know eight that he's also said

37:26

i'm not gonna seven cabinet with that needn't

37:28

necessarily mean that he's going

37:30

to be causing lots of problems it might just mean

37:32

that he sits in the backbenches in the commons

37:34

casey macy gain appointed intervention but

37:37

otherwise is otherwise very quiet just

37:39

think looking at least trust is com haiti

37:42

wasn't a role would see him visits for

37:44

for rishi sooner given that and

37:47

he's already as as he ruled himself out the cabinet

37:49

is cabinet things the insisted camp now well

37:51

if he doesn't wanna serve will serve will a big show of

37:53

sucking

37:54

a birth of a big so

37:56

sexy

37:57

him in the sense that i

37:59

think there

37:59

relief and trust has at

38:02

when was a capacity said he he

38:04

what want to grab and her government will be difficult

38:07

undercover i don't think let's trust particularly

38:09

want to have recently that it had happened

38:11

is up to convention that your outfits

38:14

offer the job or of to the

38:16

see me a job ridiculous as against

38:18

be a great offices states and

38:20

and i think nana he said that it i'm

38:23

not convinced that she'll even often job

38:25

the summer least around the list

38:27

of her way out disable heat

38:29

you factly ready to said he'd have wanted the that

38:31

we don't need to fix that i think they're

38:33

all tickets they have mindful of the wicked

38:36

of nazis

38:36

which much li

38:38

i'm feet have a scorched earth policy of i think

38:40

of other think it's likely he joined recently that

38:42

on the backbenches be dominic raab

38:45

and mishra com brady food over

38:47

the people to the times but dominic

38:49

raab said advanced like

38:52

them senior intellectual suicide nights

38:54

and safest i think there is a sudden for the

38:56

the day one of the people than that in a

38:58

capped at that at throw

39:00

believed private celebration tournaments

39:02

briefings rather than trying to do things you see directly

39:05

linked to have a she could be accused of the

39:07

ugly looking as a in bad taste

39:09

to soothe enjoying it was , university

39:12

remember when theresa may may

39:15

with some labour using that word that

39:18

very very astutely put

39:20

her finger on in a threesome i made a great

39:23

show shocking george osborne i'm michael gove in

39:25

a thursday number ten in the end she

39:27

was humble body less and twenty seventeen

39:30

and michael gove twenty came knocking

39:32

or rather she came knocking dot michael go to

39:34

knocking dot him so it's not always straightforward

39:37

when a winner sort

39:39

of chooses to vanquish their their rival

39:42

is it

39:42

no on i a from soon

39:45

exponent of you i think i think katie

39:47

said right he'll he'll he's clever

39:49

than that and he's he's young

39:51

enough to have another go so

39:54

in my opinion that the

39:57

of mp the iceberg do recently they

39:59

thinking be wise to wait

40:01

and see to possibly

40:04

make a decision a ,

40:06

is able to turn everything around and look certain

40:09

to win the election in two thousand

40:11

and four i'm sure that you would see

40:13

soon outstanding down just before the election

40:15

and we don't think that's very likely he's

40:18

a certainly can afford

40:20

to wait until after that election get himself

40:23

reelected if there's a leadership

40:25

election at that point people may

40:27

judge him on the way way

40:29

has handled matters sydney two years before

40:32

the election and on the way he's behaved

40:34

so yes he'll make speeches which

40:36

will show that show out of

40:38

line probably with the trust

40:40

leadership but he won't be i

40:42

would have thought he'd be hugely rebellious

40:45

i wouldn't see and again for the him in

40:47

that probably his problem has been that

40:49

he looked too keen this time round in

40:51

a got out too often than not

40:54

he was sort of making preparations to go

40:56

for the leadership whenever the leadership

40:58

whenever and then you

41:01

know he got he was the one

41:04

who got blamed for the departure

41:07

of boris johnson when the hell of a lot more

41:09

other mps wanted him to go as well so

41:11

he may have learnt from the experience we may

41:14

see it as soon as second coming

41:16

soon as

41:17

for let you both go casey you know

41:19

liz truss in illustrious while

41:21

you know what's what she's thinking on it

41:23

of course is not over yet who knows

41:26

that might be a shop come next monday at

41:28

least trust is very keen to avoid

41:30

looking complacent and looked like looking

41:32

lot she seems to the all this in the back to spot the extensive

41:35

preparations for them that a going on should lose

41:37

trust lose katie if the unlikely happens

41:39

what do you think her her back and vivid look like

41:43

ah as or not she's you'd be

41:45

as well behaved as risky scenic

41:48

i think this was her a question in the sense

41:50

that i imagine should be moved by coat

41:52

on the backbenches there's also a questionnaire

41:54

you do not

41:56

i think we'd also let's trust the job that

41:58

has been suggestions

41:59

they were at that point to see accept

42:02

it as sealskin be like critical

42:04

overseas next and six

42:05

the hazards of their intellectual suicide

42:07

notes and sixty six so you can

42:10

perhaps imagine a row

42:11

he doesn't happen that that

42:13

create the power they am i

42:15

wouldn't completely rule the i'll sling hang out

42:17

with less

42:18

exactly and and

42:21

do wait to see because i think is

42:23

is there was a big shock and the polling do

42:25

you still imagine it would be in it receives

42:27

the next couple safe if we when we

42:29

went on sixty one percent and sarah

42:32

think it be close enough to it

42:33

okay very unsettling she probably

42:36

think i just hang around like have a second get

42:39

well that's all from me on the podcast

42:41

today but tomorrow

42:56

hello i'm gonna russell and

42:58

same necessary for the sunday

43:00

file and his ,

43:02

for the fi suffer from said about

43:04

some bottle you

43:06

can expect to hear inspiring conversations

43:09

with some truly exceptional female

43:11

founders having made best of

43:13

both is a successful business

43:15

i'm not in a beauty empire

43:18

fashion industry is really

43:20

hate

43:21

turn your percent he'll call yeah

43:23

listen why i think you've got your post costs