0:04

Hey, this is Danish Schwartz and this is Popcorn

0:06

book Club from my Heart Radio. This

0:08

week we're jumping into a story of sadness

0:11

and tragedy and mental illness, you

0:14

know, just some light summer reading. It's

0:16

I know this much is true from Wally Lamb,

0:18

which was an Oprah's Book Club pick and is

0:20

now an HBO series starring to

0:23

Mark Ruffalo's or Ruffalo as

0:25

a pair of identical twins double

0:27

Ruffalo. Before we go into

0:30

the rest of the book, can we just all say our favorite

0:32

Ruffalo's. My Ruffalo of

0:34

preference is from Eternal

0:37

Sunshine of the Spot the Glasses

0:40

Ruffalo. Yes, yeah,

0:42

it's a solid Ruffalo. Welcome

0:45

to Popcorn book Club. I am your

0:47

host, Danish Swartz, and I am joined as always

0:49

by co host Karama Nqua, Tian

0:51

Trans, Jennifer Wright, and Melissa Hunter.

0:54

How are you guys doing, Karama? How

0:56

you doing? Medium?

0:59

I thought the the book is very sad

1:01

and the world is very sad. But

1:04

I actually got a new bookmark that

1:06

helps sunflowers on it,

1:10

you guys, and your dress is also sunflowered,

1:12

which I really yes, I was very sunflowering,

1:15

very mad for

1:17

me and mailed it to me, Tianne,

1:20

Tianne, how's your life in quarantine at the moment?

1:22

Pretty good? Um, it's nice

1:24

to escape to a sad book

1:26

from a sad world. So that's

1:29

been really fun. Um.

1:31

I also got a new bookmarks

1:34

not as cool as yours, and

1:36

by god, I mean rifled in my desk

1:39

forward But it's star stickers. That's

1:42

like a star

1:47

that is a very like mini economizing

1:51

and who things tiny, Jennifer.

1:53

You're zooming in from South Carolina.

1:56

But it looks like you're against like a tropical

1:58

background. Is it as? Are you like

2:00

basking in sunlight? What is the weather there? Because

2:02

it looks like it's like eight and perfect. It's

2:05

eighty six degrees here, so it's a little bit

2:07

too hot. Um, but

2:10

yeah, it's also it's

2:12

a sad week. I feel a little bad

2:15

that I recommended a really sad not

2:19

not anticipating how sad the world

2:21

was going to get. I know what, I actually sometimes

2:23

think that sadness in

2:26

a fictional universe can be weirdly cathartic.

2:29

Sometimes it's like, if

2:31

I'm feeling sad, I want to listen to

2:33

sad songs, and I don't you know what I mean, Like I

2:35

think it would be maybe I'm

2:37

I'm just justifying. But like if I was reading

2:39

like a very happy book about like people going

2:41

about their happy lives, I would be like, what's

2:43

your problem,

2:49

Melissa? How about you? How are you doing? Yeah?

2:51

You know, you know, a solid

2:54

relatively fine. I feel like it

2:56

is the way I describe

2:58

how I am every day, Like relative

3:01

to the rest of the world, I'm very fine. Um,

3:04

but yeah, everything's on fire

3:07

and everything in this book makes

3:09

me I think that we don't need to get into

3:11

the book yet. But the first chapter I

3:14

like read right before bed and

3:16

I was like, Nope,

3:18

can't do that again. That

3:20

was a hard path of a before so

3:24

uh yeah, But otherwise it's okay.

3:27

Getting outside. Got outside

3:29

a lot this week, which was really nice,

3:31

but stayed away from people

3:33

who were being very irresponsible. It

3:35

almost like I feel like some of the irresponsible

3:38

people ruin the nature that I'm

3:40

trying to absorb to make me happy. You

3:43

know. Said,

3:46

um, well that that is a very good segue

3:49

into what we're reading this week. Uh,

3:52

Wally Lambs, I know this much is true,

3:54

which was sort of like a hit

3:56

at the time, you know, New number one New York

3:59

Times bestseller Oprah book

4:01

Club and now is being adapted on HBO

4:03

with double ruffalo a double ruff

4:09

too rough, too low. That's

4:13

actually that one.

4:17

When we're reading, we read chapters

4:19

one through fifteen, So if you're following

4:22

along at home, that's where we cut

4:24

off. And obviously there's gonna be no spoilers

4:26

past that point because I haven't

4:28

read past that. So if any of you have, please don't spoil

4:30

anything I have not. My

4:33

mom. My mom was like, you should

4:35

because everyone else is going to And

4:37

I think that explains a lot about my life.

4:41

I almost did. I started reading

4:43

chapter sixteen, and then I realized I would

4:45

get I would have gotten too confused when I'm

4:48

because it jumps so much in time that

4:50

I'm like, oh, I don't know if

4:52

this bad thing happened, or this bad thing happened.

4:55

You know, Well, thank you, Melissa. Now

4:57

I owe my mother money.

5:00

That is exactly it, though, where it's like

5:02

this book um isn't linear

5:04

in its plot. Really there is one

5:07

one quote unquote present day

5:09

that carries us through, but we're

5:11

jumping back in time, uh

5:13

to to find out about the story and the

5:15

childhood of our protagonist

5:18

Dominic Birdseye, and his twin

5:20

identical twin brother Thomas Birdseye,

5:23

who is a diagnosed paranoid

5:25

schizophrenic and um.

5:28

At the start of the book, Uh

5:32

uh, Melissa, you want to you want to dive dive

5:35

into what the major inciting and

5:37

y sorry not what

5:40

gave me a very vivid

5:42

night nightmares that night, that thing

5:44

that happened. Yeah, that's why I'm putting it on the spot. Yeah.

5:46

So, um, Thomas

5:48

Birdseye, Uh, Dominic's

5:51

brother is in a goes

5:54

to a library and

5:56

he um

5:59

it takes out a sword that

6:01

he got from his uh

6:04

stepfather and or he stole

6:06

from his stepfather, and um

6:09

chops off his own hand and

6:13

like suitures it immediately like finds

6:15

a way to stoppably, but he does it in protest

6:18

of the what

6:21

the Gulf football for for

6:24

um and he does it. He's he's

6:26

sacrificing his own hand, which is

6:28

based on scripture like a um,

6:31

something that he's uh sort

6:33

of decided is telling

6:36

him through scripture and through God that he must

6:38

do um and

6:41

yeah, and terrifies a lot of people in

6:43

the library understandably

6:46

and terrifies a lot of readers. Yes,

6:48

yeah, I think I would be very afraid

6:50

if I were in a public put

6:53

their own hand off and then

6:55

immediately with the mae

6:59

he like he like throws it out into

7:01

the middle of the library, like yeah, and

7:03

you saw a hand just dropped to

7:06

the ground. Yeah,

7:08

you'd run the funk out of there. But

7:11

you know what, if this book had taken place

7:14

a little bit before, when normal people

7:16

took place, people would have thought they were being punked.

7:19

People would have been like ash,

7:23

but yeah, no, that is it's a it's

7:25

a visceral, terrifying scene that

7:28

is written about in such detail like that

7:30

he like tied the the arteries

7:32

to staunch the bleeding. And someone in the

7:35

we have the we have a group chat. But someone said,

7:37

and I don't remember, so I'm very sorry, um

7:39

so that they for a moment like thought it

7:41

was a memoir because it is written. Oh

7:43

that's me, that's me. I'm

7:47

an idiot who have not holly believed

7:49

that this was a memoir. I was

7:52

like, interesting, but it

7:54

would be interesting for book club. Is I could

7:56

look up some of the newspaper reports

7:58

on the time covering this, because obviously

8:01

they would cover the man who chopped off his hand

8:03

to try to stop the Gulf four. And I was so

8:05

confused by the fact that I couldn't

8:07

find any reporting from that

8:10

time. No,

8:14

I mean the CIA was probably behind it, like I've

8:16

learned from Thomas now that they were covering

8:18

it up. Um and uh

8:21

No, Wally Lamb is

8:23

I was very relieved to find out

8:26

um an author of fiction, of which apparently

8:28

did not register in my brain. And

8:31

um he has a bunch of sisters and

8:33

uh teaches incarcerated women

8:36

how to write their life stories in a very

8:38

inspiring way and has a really

8:40

happy three

8:42

loving children. Well, Wally is life.

8:48

And I also, yeah, I also do really

8:50

like I do want to say, like, when you write

8:53

about mental health, especially in fiction, it's

8:55

so often like sensationalized.

8:57

And yes, cutting off your own hand is like a

9:00

it's a it is sort of like if it bleeds, it leads,

9:02

like sort of that it fits into

9:04

that mode of like, oh, exploitative storytelling

9:06

where it's like, oh, it's dramatic and attention grabbing.

9:09

But I did appreciate that. While

9:11

Lamb the author did have like a disclaimer

9:14

at the beginning talking about his process and

9:16

his research, he has a list of

9:18

like a bibliography at the end of the book of his

9:21

sources that he consulted. And

9:23

also I think statistically he

9:26

represents the fact that most mentally ill people

9:28

are a threat to themselves far

9:30

more than they're a threat to other people. Yeah,

9:34

I think it's a nuance that that isn't

9:36

often portrayed in fiction. Well, you know what's

9:38

interesting. Even though, even

9:41

though I know that this has now been

9:43

adapted into an HBO limited series,

9:46

and I know that Mark Ruffalo plays the Birdsey

9:48

twins in the HBO limited series,

9:51

I have not been picturing Mark Ruffalo

9:53

and the usually

9:57

I have been picturing Mark Ruffalo.

9:59

So I wanted what everyone else I've been picturing

10:01

a Ruffalo type. For sure, I

10:05

feel like and this is not. I feel like Mark

10:07

Ruffalo always plays like a little more likable,

10:09

a little more like morally

10:11

good, like picturing a spotlight character

10:14

that I have trouble picturing a Ruffalo

10:17

this sort of low down

10:19

like that on the ruff and Tumble. I think

10:21

I'm picturing from thirteen

10:23

going on thirty, and not the Ruffalo

10:27

that is in the

10:29

trailer and the show. Like I'm picturing

10:31

like a younger Ruffalo before

10:34

we go into the rest of the book.

10:36

Can we just all say our favorite Ruffalo's. My

10:38

Ruffalo of preference is

10:41

from Eternal Sunshine of the

10:43

spot the Glasses. Yes,

10:47

yeah, it's a solid I'm gonna say aesthetically,

10:50

I like Eternal Sunson out of Spotless Mine because I'm

10:52

a sucker for glasses. But in terms of personality,

10:54

I'm all Spotlight Ruffalo. I love people.

10:58

If it goes up to the Pope, I like him little.

11:03

You know, for some reason, the kids are all right, Ruffalo

11:05

really popped into my head, like it's

11:08

a really like I mean, maybe it's just

11:10

like a stasis Ruffalo. You know, it's

11:12

like nothing too. He's not too

11:14

sexy, but he's also not too

11:16

He's just like a good guy that's around.

11:18

I think I don't really remember the movie

11:22

Hot Ruffalo. Yeah, what

11:25

about um well,

11:28

you know, I'm gonna say Spotlight Ruffalo. And

11:30

I usually thought Mark Ruffalo was kind of perfect

11:33

for this because I think maybe

11:35

because of his political involvement, I think

11:37

of Mark Ruffalo as being a very righteous person,

11:39

and because of the Hulk, I think of human

11:41

as also being a person who maybe secretly

11:44

is angry all the time. So

11:46

yeah, Dominic is clearly not secretly

11:49

angry. Dominic is very angry

11:52

and angry. Yeah, so

11:55

angry. Mind. I mean,

11:57

I go to thirteen going on thirty Mark Ruffalo

11:59

just because the one that pops in my and

12:02

I love a simple romcom Yeah,

12:05

yeah, which is

12:07

not absolutely not so taking

12:10

no so to continue on

12:13

um in the non very much not

12:15

a rom com story. The

12:17

major conflict that I think that Dominic

12:20

is dealing with in the first fifteen chapters is

12:22

obviously, his brother does this

12:25

enormously public act of

12:27

self mutilation. He's brought

12:29

to the hospital, but then to a mental

12:31

institution that's more.

12:34

I don't know, how do you describe it as a maximum

12:36

security maximum maximum

12:38

security security, a more

12:41

severe place than his usual like

12:43

group outpatient sort of centric

12:47

facility. And I think one of the big

12:49

things also is that the hatch,

12:53

Yeah, the hatch and the new facility versus

12:56

settled the old facility has

12:58

more surveillance, which for a paranoid

13:00

schizophrenic is just

13:02

like possibly the worst possible thing

13:04

that you could do. Yeah,

13:07

I mean you have I understand, I understand

13:09

why, yeah, right, And

13:11

he's very comfortable at subtle and

13:14

like what he like works the coffee

13:16

or he gets the coffee and works the news

13:18

stand, and it's like his home, and so

13:20

that's very stressful. He's

13:22

very settled, oh

13:25

yeah, and Dominic really

13:27

tries to fight to get him back

13:29

to Settle, where his brother seemed to be doing

13:31

better until he cut his hand

13:34

off. But for political

13:36

reasons, because it's such a high profile

13:38

case, the powers

13:41

that be kind of need to throw the book at it

13:43

a little bit, like we were saying before, like it was

13:45

this really terrifying scene where a man

13:47

threw his severed hand across a library,

13:50

and just for public appearances, you need

13:52

to be like, well, we're putting him in maximum

13:54

security getting evaluated, and

13:57

it makes the system feel very futile and scary.

13:59

As it was, it was really interesting in that one

14:01

chapter where he does meet with that social worker

14:03

and she essentially tells him that that like this

14:06

sort of move is like a pr

14:09

move from

14:11

from from the cops. That like, because

14:13

there there was an incident where someone who

14:16

had no history of violence snapped,

14:19

as they said, and attacked someone and killed someone.

14:21

So like they're doing this to Thomas

14:23

as a show of you know,

14:26

conservative action. Mm

14:28

hmmm. What I was gonna say

14:31

is I think that it's really interesting. The dominant

14:34

keeps bringing up like people keep saying that

14:36

he's violent, but he only hurt himself

14:39

and he's not a danger to anyone else.

14:41

He's just he's his own worst enemy

14:43

and he's only dangerous to himself.

14:47

But I think what's important and um,

14:49

what made me feel for some of the workers

14:52

there was the fact that she immediately replies,

14:54

well, he counts if you're

14:56

violent to yourself, that's violence

14:59

to yourself or up matter.

15:01

Yeah, yeah, I think

15:04

that it's it's interesting. I didn't want to

15:06

dive into this so soon, but but I feel like the natural

15:08

progression is Dominic is a narrator,

15:11

is not a fundamentally great

15:14

person across the board's incredibly sexist

15:17

and homophobic, and his attitude and yeah,

15:22

rasis homophobic. I mean, there's some

15:24

like nineties language in here where you're like,

15:26

Okay, I guess people said that, But Jesus

15:29

Christ, it is not just the

15:31

nine because I remember

15:33

a good chunk of the nineties and I'm like,

15:36

oh, there is

15:38

a balance between like nineties

15:40

language and then things that we're just

15:42

playing racist even in the nineties, like the homophobia

15:45

to me, feels a little more nineties.

15:48

It does, but it doesn't because his girlfriend

15:50

Joy also calls him. Yeah,

15:53

she says she's homophobic. Yeah, and

15:55

she's. But

15:57

I do think it was more mainstream for

16:00

men to be called homophobic

16:02

and it be okay that they were homophobic.

16:04

It's like, oh, sure, that guy,

16:06

he's he's he's just a homophobe.

16:08

Like it was like you, oh you

16:11

you you know, silly, silly

16:13

dominant. Yeah. I

16:16

feel like when you hear about Joy's

16:19

gay friend Ted, who makes duchess

16:21

potatoes and lives in like a beautiful

16:23

condo and plans to become a caterer, I

16:26

just wanted to disappear to the just

16:28

maybe the book could like swerve over port

16:32

of Yeah, and they take mixology

16:35

classes together. I'm so into

16:38

it. What fun thing to do. I

16:40

would have been okay if we just swerved for

16:42

like a romantic comedy for Ted

16:45

helps Joy find love and you

16:47

know, Tad is

16:49

like you you leave him, honey, leave

16:51

him? You know, just like it's like every day, like

16:54

when are you leaving him? Is

16:57

it next week? We gotta have a plan.

17:00

She is a hot twenty three year

17:02

old fitness instructor who

17:04

carries Yeah.

17:07

As I'm reading that the whole time, I'm like, joy,

17:09

why are you with him? Well,

17:13

I feel like because

17:16

she has low self esteem and

17:19

she has problems because of the

17:21

fact that she was sexually abused when

17:23

she was

17:27

completely dismisses and he's

17:29

like, well, it was consensual,

17:31

but as you call it statutory

17:34

statutory where it's like no, no, no, and uncle

17:37

and year

17:39

old girl is in universe

17:42

consensual. But

17:46

but she wrote him letters, so

17:49

obviously his

17:52

fingernails love oh

17:54

god um, and it's

17:56

more disturbed by her like

17:59

her action and like her eating the fingernails

18:01

and like the like never condemns the

18:03

uncle's actions at all in telling us

18:06

this entire So it's really well. But

18:08

what I wanted to point out is that even

18:11

though our narrator Dominic is

18:13

sexist, racist, homophobic, I

18:16

do really value kind

18:18

of that Wally Lamb is building

18:21

this world around him where it's like, oh,

18:23

well, I don't think while Wally Lamb is

18:25

not those things, like, we're even though we're

18:27

through Dominic's perspective, I think we're

18:29

getting like really interesting women

18:32

and people of color and the stories that

18:35

Dominic can't see. But we as the reader

18:37

can see, like the story of the drink Waters

18:39

and dr character

18:42

in the whole book Waters

18:45

who are That

18:47

almost took me out though, Like, just given

18:50

everything that's happening in the world, fact

18:52

that the fact that Dominic

18:55

went and accused a little black girl

18:58

but you know she all intents and purposes

19:01

reads is black. Um, he's

19:03

a little black girl. A theft made her

19:05

cry in front of the principle no one believed

19:08

her. Everyone who was a hero in

19:10

his in not in his defense, but just

19:12

to say, the reason they believed him and

19:14

not her was partly because she did have a

19:16

record for stealing food. She was

19:19

great to find out because she was hungry,

19:22

which nobody addresses. So

19:24

he makes her cry. And then the next day she gets

19:26

kidnapped and murder and then

19:29

and

19:29

then and

19:31

then he writes a speech and gets chosen

19:33

to read it out loud at the memorial

19:36

service at the school. It is just such a

19:38

sick, sick, little twisted

19:41

thing that he doesn't does in that chapter. I

19:43

had to put the sorry, yeah, yeah.

19:45

The thing afterwards where he sees

19:48

Ralph get upset in class

19:51

because the teacher has said that they

19:53

just got rid of all the Indians. They're all gone.

19:55

He disappeared, and Ralph

19:58

is part Indian. Yeah, they

20:00

disappeared. Um, And then

20:02

he realizes, like, huh, maybe racism

20:05

is kind of um, and it

20:07

just feels like such a evil, inadequate

20:10

response to everything he's done.

20:12

I found it the most chill with that exact

20:15

fam Like one of the most chilling moments

20:18

of Dominic recounting the Penny

20:20

is I think her name is Penny and the sister who

20:23

gets murdered is

20:25

that He's like, I told the

20:27

teacher that she was bragging about sealing

20:30

oreos, and I knew that they would believe

20:32

me. Yeah, that is exactly

20:34

the sort of like systemic racism that still exists,

20:37

where like that I mean not to bring

20:39

up current events, but that woman calling the police

20:42

and knowing how she can twist a story

20:44

to her benefit. It's like and Dominic knew

20:47

that they would believe and beyond that, he was

20:49

he was like getting angry that like he's

20:51

like, they better believe me, Like he

20:54

was like, I better win this,

20:56

even though he he was like getting

20:58

indignant that she was by writing for

21:00

her truth, which was the truth. He Yeah,

21:04

he forgot, he forgot that part

21:07

Yeah, we forgot that the whole thing was something that he

21:09

invented because

21:12

and the whole reason he did it was because she lied

21:15

about saying that her mom was going to get her a Shetland

21:17

pony for her birthday. It's like, let her

21:19

lie. We all lied when we were in third

21:21

grade. My best friend

21:23

in elementary school said that her house

21:25

used to belong to giants and they had to renovate

21:28

it to make it person sized. That's

21:30

an awesome, very

21:33

good, very good

21:35

lie. My

21:37

little niece is a huge liar, just constant

21:40

lies flying out of her mouth. Kids

21:44

love. It's just fun. Yeah.

21:46

I told kids in kindergarten

21:49

that I was the author of Pnicula. It

21:52

could have been Jennifer, thank

21:55

you. Yeah, I

21:59

could talk fully reading that, so

22:01

it would have been like an incredible achievement.

22:03

But that's so

22:05

funny.

22:15

You're listening to Popcorn Book Club for My Heart

22:17

Radio, and we'll be back right after the break.

22:28

So we're back with Popcorn Book Club for My

22:30

Heart Radio. So

22:33

we sort of do get this main narrative

22:35

about Dominic and Thomas and the challenges

22:37

of you know, having

22:40

an identical twin who's sort of having this descent

22:43

into into further paranoid

22:46

schizophrenia peppered in with these anecdotes,

22:48

and I want to focus on a different anecdote

22:51

that broke my heart. I would say like the second

22:53

saddest I've been in this book, although it's

22:55

hard to say to the New

22:58

York City trap. Thought

23:00

about that, the field trip, the

23:03

field trip. So what happens in this

23:05

one, just to refresh your memory, is

23:07

the the boys school, UH

23:11

is going on a field trip to New York City to

23:13

like see a show at Radio City Music

23:15

Hall and see the Statue of Liberty from Connecticut

23:17

where they live, and we sort of see that

23:19

this is where Dominic was trying to distance

23:21

himself from which I think all

23:24

kids, if you have like a lame brother

23:27

or lame sibling, like you sort of do that at

23:29

some point. And so he sort of is

23:32

trying to align himself with the cool kid,

23:34

and he's not sitting with Thomas on the bus,

23:37

and then Thomas accidentally locks

23:39

himself in the bathroom on the bus,

23:42

and just the way it's

23:44

described is so vivid and so

23:46

humiliating, both for Thomas

23:49

and also I really did feel for Dominic

23:51

in this awful way where you know

23:53

that like he's not being a good person, but also

23:56

who among us has it been like humiliated

23:58

like that? And I can just like

24:01

like that feeling of just

24:03

thinking about being in Thomas's shoes and

24:06

like having everyone on the bus shout

24:08

at you, like the

24:10

kids, the students, the driver, the

24:12

teacher, and it was like everyone telling

24:14

you how to fix something that you just can't

24:17

and in the moment of the anxiety, you can't

24:19

figure it out. Yeah, and you're in this small

24:22

little room that smells like literal shit

24:25

and you and it's just like I feel

24:27

like I've been that kid several

24:29

times where just like you don't and it's just like a

24:31

simple thing that if you just it's

24:33

like the left right, it was like tell him to

24:35

make it go right, and then it was just she

24:39

just mixed those up and it was just so

24:41

devastating. It's so awful

24:44

and precisely the way that children actually

24:47

I think, um, I think as adults.

24:49

Um, I see like kids in third

24:51

grade now and I think, oh, they're adorable. Look

24:54

what are they reading. It's so cute. And then you

24:56

remember that when you were that age, they were

24:58

life size and they were yeah that

25:02

um, yeah, they have no patience with anyhing.

25:04

Um, they can say vividly cruel

25:06

things without anyone

25:08

calling them out or any personal feelings

25:11

of guilt. And that's

25:13

everything that's happened to tell us. And also they

25:15

stuck out. What stuck out for me

25:17

in that scene, there were two things up. First

25:20

is actually there were three things. First

25:22

is that Dominic was

25:25

um ultimately concerned with whether or not

25:27

this cool, rich kid would still be his friend

25:30

afterwards. And I think that being

25:32

accepted in that way was

25:35

something that was very important to him, and he could see

25:37

it literally just slipping away

25:39

as his brother became this embarrassment.

25:42

And I think that that's part of the tough thing about

25:44

him looking exactly like his brother and

25:48

either like we all want to distance

25:50

ourselves from people at times, and it's

25:52

like you can't because they're just a

25:54

living mirror image

25:56

of you. And then the second thing that really stuck

25:59

out to me was that the teacher

26:02

just was like, oh man, this kid is having

26:04

a real rough time, Dominic, why don't

26:06

you stay with him? And it's sort of the

26:08

beginning of this lifelong thing where

26:10

Thomas is Dominic's

26:12

responsibility, even when there are

26:14

other people who should be responsible,

26:16

that should probably be more responsible,

26:20

and like even as an adult adult or

26:22

adults, that should be more responsible,

26:24

Like Ray takes no responsibility

26:27

as a parental figure as

26:30

as he gets older. And

26:32

then the other thing was that this that

26:34

scene where they're at the Statue of Liberty and

26:37

Thomas isn't feeling great and so Dominic

26:39

has to stay with him and doesn't get to go inside

26:41

the Statue of Liberty is the first

26:43

time that he swears out loud, first

26:45

time he says the F word out loud

26:48

when he tells when he tells Thomas

26:50

to shut the funk up, And I think that that

26:52

sort of is the beginning of the anger.

26:56

Yeah, it's like he you

26:59

really see why he's such an angry

27:01

person because he decides

27:04

to be a martyr, which is interesting because

27:06

Thomas is literally trying to be a martyr.

27:09

But I feel like with Dominic, he makes

27:12

he like takes care of his brother, but

27:14

he uses it as a reason to be angry

27:16

with the world. And you're right, that started right

27:18

there. I also found it so interesting

27:21

how he like spent that money, the

27:23

like thirty seven dollars or whatever that he saved

27:25

just on nothing, just to make, which is

27:28

like so relatable when you're upset,

27:30

you're just like, I'm spend a bunch

27:32

of money and all the money that I have, and maybe

27:34

that will make me feel something, and it never does.

27:37

You know. The religion is

27:39

so interesting because obviously them being

27:41

identical twins, they are sort of that mirror

27:43

image where Thomas

27:45

falls into being i think

27:47

past incredibly religious thinking. He's literally

27:50

like a prophet of God, and some of his delusions

27:53

dominic after going through numerous

27:56

tragedies and losses, you

27:58

know, except that there is no God, and

28:00

so he becomes incredibly nihilistic.

28:02

But as he said, like still thinks of himself

28:05

as a martyr, and it goes back to like I

28:07

mean Kane enable the story of the

28:10

Biblical Brothers. He goes, I'm not my brother's

28:12

keeper, and so it's like I'm

28:14

not like a biblical scholar. But right, it's

28:17

this that is like such a fundamental tie

28:19

of like what is your responsibility to your

28:21

literal brother and to

28:23

mankind? And they've taken different

28:26

approaches towards you know, religion

28:29

and God. And I think it also goes in the

28:31

in chapter fifteen when he's talking with Dr Patel,

28:33

like he kind of admits how much it has

28:35

heard him, that Thomas

28:38

no longer like seems to look out

28:40

for him, that Thomas in his schizophren

28:42

yet becomes really um

28:45

narcissistic and looking.

28:48

And so I think that's sort of an interesting thing where

28:50

Dominic feels like he always has to watch out

28:52

for his brother. I love dr

28:58

I love that. Her count or to that is, well,

29:01

aren't we all a little nurse assistic? Like

29:03

she gets that particular anecdote about how

29:06

she was running late to a meeting and the guy in front

29:08

of her was going really slowly and she's like, why is

29:10

he making me move for my meeting when

29:12

it's like maybe he is not a confident

29:15

driver, And he's like, why is this person trying

29:17

to get me to speed behind him?

29:19

And so we're all sort of wrapped up, and I

29:22

definitely default to that in our

29:24

own narrative, where we're the star of our

29:26

own story, hopefully a romantic comedy

29:28

for me first, not

29:31

a c I a thriller for Thomas.

29:34

The thing about Dominic two is that we're you know,

29:36

he is such this martyr. He's like this like belabored

29:39

martyr, but he's such an unlikable

29:41

character in so many ways, and it's very angry,

29:43

but there are so many moments that I feel very tender

29:46

to him, even though he's

29:48

so unlikable, Like just him talking

29:51

about how he would go

29:53

visit his brother every single Sunday,

29:55

and that that scene where

29:57

Joys like can you just not do it? Or

30:00

one weekend and he's like no,

30:02

like my brother is expecting me. It's

30:04

almost like he needs it as well, and

30:07

in in knowing that his brother is

30:09

doing okay. Like in those moments,

30:11

I'm like, oh, Dominic, you're

30:13

You're so tender and loving and also

30:16

a total asshole and and you

30:19

know, using it in this like Martyrie way.

30:21

I kind of feel like anyone in this

30:23

book can be slightly redeemed just by

30:26

being nice too Dominant. I

30:29

felt the same way to a much lesser extent.

30:32

Yea, it just seems like a nightmare

30:35

of a person. Um just cheats

30:37

on his wife relentlessly, like

30:40

was addicted to cocaine. Yeah that was very

30:42

casual. Yeah,

30:47

just just just seems like kind

30:49

of a mess. But then he says, you know, if you

30:51

want me to want to put me on the visitors, they'll

30:53

go down and I mean Thomas saying,

30:55

I thought, oh, that's that's really kind of do

30:58

Yeah, that's so, that's really

31:00

nice. We also get kindness from Deesta.

31:04

Dominics is

31:07

a single thing wrong. She

31:11

was like a story part of Dominic,

31:15

you know. Or it felt like that was his

31:17

goodness, was Indessa, and now

31:20

that he's separated from that, it's

31:23

like part of his goodness is gone. You know.

31:26

Yeah, I kind of wondered if we feel

31:29

entirely different about this character if we

31:31

had met him at the point he

31:33

and Desso were expecting a chime. It was a teacher

31:36

in his classroom about what the weight

31:38

was going to be, and everybody was

31:40

so excited. I'm ready to talk about Angela

31:43

and that whole story. But but

31:45

the visectomy thing, oh my, was like

31:47

one of the worst things I've

31:50

ever heard someone too in a marriage.

31:53

But how dare truly?

31:56

I mean, I feel like I feel

31:59

so responsible for us, so like she's a real person,

32:01

Like thank god she left, like good

32:03

he deserves that artist and that

32:05

little farm was

32:07

there, a little male potter

32:12

And I'm sad she went to Greece by

32:14

herself, Like thank goodness. She felt

32:16

free for the first time. Um,

32:19

and yeah, I really related to her. I feel

32:22

like I've been in one very

32:24

bad, toxic relationship and earlier

32:26

on in my life, and it was like I

32:28

spent a week away from him and it was like

32:31

when she described how she felt, it

32:33

was like, yeah, that was It's like it is this when

32:36

you're in a kind of with a toxic person and you

32:38

like separate and you feel like you have your

32:40

whole self back. Like I was just like, yeah,

32:42

Dessa, leave him now,

32:44

we just gotta work on joy leaving him. Well,

32:48

Joy needs but

32:53

I feel like they don't need

32:55

to beat it. No, he doesn't. He doesn't even seem

32:57

to like her. He doesn't he still

32:59

loves does He's not nice. Yeah

33:02

it's um, yeah, um, I

33:05

wish joy. And there's weird

33:07

details where you're like you can sort

33:09

of read between the lines and be like, oh, Joyce kind

33:11

of triang Like at the very end

33:13

of chapter four year, it's this throwaway

33:16

detail that she's doing his laundry

33:18

and like catches a note and he's like, oh, did you want this?

33:21

So it's like when you think about it, like this woman who

33:23

he's not nice to at all, and it's

33:25

incredibly dismissive of and sexist

33:27

to. In his own internal monologue,

33:30

He's like doing his laundry and cleaning

33:32

his chucking pocket. I literally didn't think

33:34

about that. I think men

33:36

like Dominic takes that so much for granted,

33:39

that like the laundry ferry. Yeah, yeah,

33:43

Dominic doesn't even acknowledge it. He

33:45

doesn't see that Joyce serves any purpose

33:47

in his life. Just I imagine

33:49

his mother was also kind of forced

33:52

into Yeah, I bet

33:54

he had a mom who pretty

33:56

much catered to everything. I mean, we know in

34:00

the box out, I can pretty much

34:02

infer that she wasn't like, Okay, you're old

34:04

enough, now I'm going to teach you how to do your laundry.

34:07

Yeah. I mean everything that we learned about his

34:09

mom is also so devastating.

34:13

It'saking, it's tragic. Like

34:15

we learned that, you know that she

34:17

is in this abusive relationship with

34:20

Ray emotionally and sometimes

34:22

physically, And we learned

34:24

that she dies of breast cancer, and

34:26

then I was like, this is just gonna keep

34:28

getting sadder, isn't it. We also

34:30

learned and she is. It's

34:37

so hardbreak it's always

34:40

I remember, this is not the same

34:42

situation at all. But I used

34:45

to have like a very gummy smile because my

34:47

job was misaligned, so I was probably like I

34:49

had more gum than two when

34:52

And so for like a good few years

34:54

when I smiled, I always covered my mouth when

34:56

I smiled or laughed in person. Yeah,

34:59

and my mom would always say, like how much

35:01

that broke her heart? And when I had to go through this

35:03

whole surgery and like getting jow surgery, it was

35:05

like a whole thing, but it was like it was

35:07

such a weird and visceral thing that I've

35:09

never really talked about, Like how nice it is to like

35:12

I want to smile and not cover your

35:14

mouth. Yeah, it's

35:17

like on that episode of Queer Eye did you

35:19

with with the sisters that like, and

35:22

she and she had messed up teeth

35:24

and she would always cover her mouth and then at

35:26

the end they picked her teeth and then she's smiling

35:28

with it. That made me cry. Um,

35:32

Yeah, it was very nice. Uh.

35:36

Does Delminic's mother ever get to be happy?

35:38

Is it just that one day where they

35:40

get to meet who was one

35:45

time? I think

35:47

she was almost happy when

35:50

they went out to the movies for the back to

35:52

school day and then she got that panting

35:55

and she was like, I'm going to get this painting of Jesus because

35:57

it makes me happy. But then was like change

36:02

immediately. I think that that that image

36:04

of the quote unquote crazy man on

36:06

the bus, it's sexually harasss mom. I think

36:09

really haunts Dominic because

36:11

obviously he has the same genetics as

36:14

as Thomas, and I think this idea

36:16

of crazy is very nebulous,

36:19

you know, to his understanding, and I think

36:21

he has this deep fear of becoming

36:23

the crazy man. He marked

36:26

that it was like this space that haunts

36:28

my dreams because I thought it was going to be I mean, obviously

36:30

was a terrifying scene, but I thought something worse was going

36:32

to happen, like you know, they would

36:34

be get to go to the hospital or something because

36:37

of the way he marks it, you

36:39

know, of how this space will forever haunt

36:41

him. Um. And they also

36:43

just thinking about like toxic relationships

36:46

and abusive relationships. When she goes

36:49

home and is crying and can't stop crying

36:51

and then makes them promise not to tell ray

36:54

it's like that, and not to

36:56

tell ray that something that was not

36:58

your fault a very very bad thing, scary

37:01

thing, that happened. That was not your fault. It's such a

37:03

clear sign of abuse of like they

37:06

she would have yelled at her about that, that would

37:08

have turned into a fight, And it was just very

37:10

heartbreaking. Yeah. The other

37:12

the other scene about Mom that was like so heartbreaking

37:15

was when she gets them

37:17

that gift the typewriter and like wants them to

37:19

go to college, but raised like they don't have enough.

37:21

We we as a family don't have enough, and so

37:23

she wants to try and work. And

37:26

just thinking about her on that first day

37:28

of work with her hands shaking, and I

37:31

like it took me back to my mom, because

37:33

my mom stayed at home and then when

37:35

all of us had grown up, she like started

37:38

working again for the first time in like twenty

37:41

years. And it never hit me, like

37:44

how nerve wracking that must be to

37:46

have been out of the workforce for so long and

37:49

then going out into the It just

37:51

like the thought of the hands shaking and her

37:53

going out to work and and I'm not even

37:55

getting to do it. It was just so it

37:59

was heartbreaking. Well, I mean, I think

38:01

it's also like a tiny little bit of a triumphant

38:04

moment for me too, that Ray tells her

38:06

that she will never be able to get a job, like what does

38:08

she even know how to do? She goes

38:10

down to a hotel and she applies and she gets

38:12

hired a medium. Um like

38:15

yeah, and um, in

38:18

a way, UM, I understand

38:20

that she did not want to work and that

38:23

that should be a choice for people, But

38:26

um, I desperately wish she had taken that

38:28

job because I think it might have given her

38:30

a support system outside of it, might

38:32

have let her see that there were people who valued

38:34

her labor. And yeah, yeah,

38:36

yeah, I think Ma is

38:38

a is a incredibly heartbreaking character.

38:41

But Ray is also this major figure

38:44

that looms over Dominic.

38:47

Uh. The detail that stuck with me is this idea

38:50

that Ray kind of preferred

38:52

Dominic and he Dominic

38:54

goes into this with Dr Battel, but this weird

38:57

feeling of like both guilt and pride.

39:00

Ray was sort of like, you know,

39:02

because Dominic was more like an athlete, more popular,

39:05

that he really attacked Ma and

39:07

Thomas and Dominic sort of got

39:09

away. I don't know

39:12

what did you guys make of that. I just want to say something about

39:14

the work scene because that was when like the racism

39:16

really jumped out at me because that scene

39:19

I don't know if y'all remember, but has

39:21

the N word in it, and that's what

39:24

that's what really forces raised hand

39:26

in this college situation. And he's like, fine,

39:28

I will pay for college because

39:31

I don't want my wife to have to do nigger

39:33

work. And just for everybody listening and reminder,

39:35

I am black, um, so

39:38

you can't see me, but I am. But that

39:41

I had to put the book down after that because

39:43

I was like, oh God, it's not even about

39:46

like I want you to stay home

39:48

because of like

39:51

being a homemaker is a full

39:53

time job and you're not gonna be able to do that well.

39:55

And we've arranged this house so that it works

39:57

this way, or I want you to be home for of

40:00

the kids. Know that being a good

40:03

racism and this

40:05

deep seated like honor thing

40:07

like you are my property and I don't want anyone

40:10

to see my property engaged in something that

40:12

I believe to be beneath them, And

40:15

that just like made my skin crawl and

40:18

ray. From then on, I was just like, I

40:20

don't care what he does. He is

40:23

the least redeemable character in this book

40:25

again because he both physically and

40:27

psychologically abuses Thomas.

40:30

Dominic mom, I mean he physically

40:33

abuses Thomas in the book,

40:35

Well, there's a moment that was I

40:38

also feel like kind of blossed over where

40:40

Dominic talks about when they were younger. Um,

40:43

he has them kneeling on right. Oh

40:46

my god, that was terrifying

40:49

because you don't even like

40:51

when they said it, I was like, what is

40:53

what? And then when he explained he didn't

40:56

even understand until it was happening,

40:58

the pain of it, and like

41:00

the taping his um that

41:02

was at hand hands so

41:05

he couldn't eat. It was like a dog.

41:07

It was. It was such like this

41:10

sounds like I'm glorifying it,

41:12

but like creative abuse, like abuse

41:14

of a kind of person that has such a

41:17

sick mind that they are like I

41:19

I don't just want to hit this person. I want

41:22

to find ways to torture

41:24

them. It's all tord it's all means

41:26

of torture. Um. It

41:29

was. It was awful. That was

41:31

the note I made that scene that Ray

41:34

like duct tapes Thomas's hands

41:36

so he can't I guess chew on

41:39

them whatever he was doing wrong, which children,

41:41

especially anxious children do. So

41:44

the scene that they described then is Thomas

41:47

having to eat his dinner just with his like face,

41:50

like a dog in a ball. And also then

41:52

I wrote in the margin, like and then he cuts

41:54

off his own hand, Like there has to be some

41:56

sort of maybe metaphorical

42:00

are alel to that idea of like, I

42:02

don't know. I mean this is because this is fiction, you

42:04

know, I could be reading too much of date, But also

42:07

there's this idea like I think

42:10

I'm not an expert on psychology or

42:13

mental illness, but like, I can't

42:15

imagine a childhood of traumatic

42:17

abuse helps healthy development

42:20

if you're already have those

42:23

uh you know, programs inside

42:26

your chemical It

42:30

just broke my heart. Yeah. Um.

42:33

One of the most terrible, the most terrifying

42:36

moment in this for me is when Ray's

42:38

solutionus like, maybe I should have been harder on him,

42:41

like your mother hating him,

42:43

So maybe if I just beat in him

42:45

a little more it would have been better, which, um,

42:47

I think we can all agree with not have helped.

42:50

And even if their childhood already

42:52

seems very traumatic and if that's

42:54

how paranoid schizophrenia started

42:57

was because of behaviors in childhood,

43:00

no, Like, why would you think

43:03

that because with the rice thing

43:05

what stuck out to me about that Rice torture

43:08

was that if you didn't cry, you

43:10

got to get up, but if you reacted

43:13

in any way to being tortured,

43:15

you got tortured longer. And then with

43:18

the tragedy is dominic. His

43:20

inability to show grief and express

43:23

himself is partly what leads

43:25

to the end of his marriage. He

43:28

to get into it a tiny bit. He and his

43:30

wife, Dessa, lose a child

43:32

at three weeks incredibly tragically,

43:35

and Dessa wants him to open up,

43:37

wants him to be able to express

43:40

their shared grief, and he bottles it up

43:42

until he literally just burst

43:44

out into tears while teaching a class,

43:47

and then he leaves and never comes back

43:49

back. It gave

43:52

me so much hope towards the end when

43:54

dr tell told him that he can't keep

43:56

being like a Tupper war love,

44:00

that she could not the word you

44:04

and sell those things to you. But

44:09

it broke my heart. It broke my heart with Dessa

44:11

where you could so tell that Dessa needed

44:14

to share that grief with her partner and

44:16

needed him to open up and be there with

44:19

him and express that, and he and I could

44:21

not, And I mean the most

44:23

heartbreaking moment for me, and that

44:26

maybe was when he

44:28

hears her crying in in

44:31

the baby's room and he's

44:33

like, just lets her cry, like, doesn't

44:35

go comfort her. And he's

44:37

like and has the thought that, like

44:40

only a psychotic person wouldn't

44:42

go help her. I'm not going to help

44:45

her though, Yeah, and then he thinks

44:47

back to that moment, like if I

44:49

had gone and comforted her, would we still be

44:51

together? And like maybe maybe, like maybe,

44:54

because it could have been, like you might have cried

44:56

and then you could have talked to each other instead

44:58

of getting a basective me. Well, she's in

45:01

Greece a trip that she asked you to come

45:03

on. Yeah, but I

45:05

think she's making and maybe

45:07

think she'll be happy about I

45:09

mean without telling her. Yeah, that was

45:12

like Dessa was going doing this really

45:14

big thing, like let's go to Greece,

45:16

let's like reconnect, let's be with each

45:19

other. And then when she comes back, they have this really

45:21

cathartic moment and she cries

45:23

and you're like, maybe they're going to get through this. And

45:25

then he's like, I got a vasectomy without telling

45:28

you. I

45:31

don't believe in God and I got a vasectomy.

45:34

Yeah, and what I

45:37

thought was so beautiful in that chapter

45:39

with Tessa was like she had

45:42

done the work of dealing

45:44

with this loss and grieving that she

45:48

it started to show that she was on the

45:50

other side of it, like not that she was finished grieving,

45:52

but that her saying that like now

45:55

the memory of this baby is

45:57

like not a tragedy, but it's like she's so grateful,

46:00

And it really showed like that kind

46:02

of progress that people go through with grief,

46:05

and she got on the other side of it. But He's

46:07

just still so stuck in the tupperware

46:10

um of anger, at the tupperware

46:13

field with rage that he did this horrible

46:15

thing. Well, because you know, Melissa, if

46:18

you cry, you get more time kneeling

46:20

in the right kneeling right, there

46:23

is something to him being like that, like

46:26

the martyr, like taking that position

46:28

of being the martyr in this situation where he

46:30

does describe like at the very first

46:33

several weeks months of after

46:35

losing their daughter, that he's

46:37

kind of holding things together, is

46:39

like letting Dessa, you

46:42

know, be with his with her mother

46:45

and sister and crying and grieving

46:47

and he's you know, doing things around

46:49

the house, getting groceries together, spending

46:52

time with his father

46:54

in law, and in some ways is like is

46:57

sharing with us that he was an

46:59

emotional rock, even though

47:01

it was not the healthiest of things that he

47:04

was doing. But that's sort of like taking

47:06

that position of being in the martyr he's doing. He's

47:08

doing it all over again, like taking on the

47:11

emotional burden of like taking care instead

47:14

of opening up. It

47:17

is interesting because yeah, it's like she he

47:19

goes to the funeral home, and it's

47:21

like he does all the things that are

47:24

taught in sort of like fifties traditional

47:26

masculine ways in which you handle

47:29

tragedies. It's like, I'm going to be the tough

47:31

one that the girl can collapse

47:33

on, and I'm going to be like a tree trunk, you

47:36

know. And but he can't do the other

47:38

part um. And it

47:40

is important to remember that he was raised in the nineteen

47:42

fifties. Yes, because when the

47:44

book starts, he's like forty. I think, yeah,

47:53

this is Popcorn Book Club. We'll be right back

47:56

after this quick break. Okay,

48:04

we're back with Popcorn Book Club. I

48:07

want to take a brief detour. There

48:09

is one story we get early on that seems

48:12

to be kind of a departure because

48:14

it's not about tragedy really,

48:16

and it's not about Thomas. But it's a

48:19

story about Ma having

48:21

a handwritten memoir

48:23

written by her father. Say

48:27

it again, it feels like a weird departure. Like, so

48:29

the story is Ma has

48:31

a handwritten memoir by her immigrant

48:34

father who came from Italy and builed

48:36

himself up. And he we

48:39

get this subplot that he tried to hire a

48:41

stenographer and it didn't work. So then

48:43

he's like, I'm just doing it myself, and

48:46

we kind of he's Dominic's namesake,

48:48

dominica Um. But basically

48:51

Mam leaves it to Dominic and it's like, here's

48:53

you know, your grandfather's memoir and story,

48:56

but it's all in uh peasant

48:58

Italian and hasn't

49:01

Sicilian Sicilian. My apologies.

49:05

He brings it to a local

49:08

university to get a grad student to translate

49:10

it for him. I mean, get the story about a

49:12

woman named Nidra. Doesn't want to pick

49:14

it up nature. I

49:16

mean with Nidra, I only want

49:18

to say that he describes her the thing that stuck

49:21

out to me, and only maybe because I'm like, my partner

49:23

is a professor, so I'm like this sticks out

49:25

to be so much. But he walks in and

49:27

it's like she looked about forty or

49:30

who knows. You can't tell with women who pull

49:32

their hair back tight up into

49:35

a bun and wear glasses around their neck. And

49:37

I was like, that's so rude.

49:41

I have both of these things going on. I

49:45

could be funny. You just

49:48

don't know. You just don't know. I

49:50

assumed you were eight years old, Melissa. I just

49:53

I cannot tell. I don't know. Um,

49:57

I can take it from here a little bit. But he he

49:59

tries. He asked this woman to translate

50:01

this book for her, and she's very which

50:04

I love. She's like unemotionally attached

50:06

to the whole project. Doesn't see why this

50:08

is like of utmost importance to this

50:10

man. But it's just like, yeah, sure, I'll charge

50:12

such and such page for such and such. I think

50:15

like eight bucks a page or five

50:17

books a page. It was very expensive.

50:20

Is it really? Whatever?

50:22

Great? He is? He agrees, especially in

50:26

eight Oh my gosh, right, I'm

50:29

thinking about it earlier. I guess because

50:31

the big event happened in this could

50:33

be like eight five maybe yeah, because

50:35

it's like someone

50:40

who Yeah,

50:42

he's just messed around, although

50:44

you know what what she's saying is she has a very

50:47

specific skill set where knowing peasant

50:50

Sicilian is not probably

50:52

does not have a lot of income opportunities,

50:54

and so she's like, here's an opportunity I am

50:56

getting. Yeah, I just think

50:59

it's important to note that the mom is actively

51:01

dying during the whole process,

51:04

and she's like, like it does not face

51:06

her at all, Like, Okay, well it's going to take

51:08

a long time, and I don't care that your

51:10

mother has to live.

51:13

He wanted he wanted to have it translated

51:15

that he could give it to his mom dying mother

51:19

as a gift. Yeah. Um, I

51:21

just kept thinking, Um, social media is

51:23

very bad on a lot of levels. But the

51:26

one thing that I thought would be great

51:28

is if you were doing this today, you would just put

51:30

a post up on Facebook saying, like he

51:33

does anybody speaks Sicilian? I need

51:35

a book in like two weeks. Can you give me

51:37

a rough translation what I've

51:39

done it for like a hundred and fifty Yeah,

51:43

isn't it. In that first meeting too, as she's flipping

51:45

through the book and seeing that it's like put

51:47

together haphazardly. Some of its type some of

51:49

it's in peasants Sicilian, some of it is in Italian,

51:52

and she's like, man, is your grandfather

51:54

is schizo? She makes like a quick she

51:56

makes a clear little reference like whoa

51:58

was he a schizo? And he and dominic

52:01

is like fills with

52:03

rage, and I think turns

52:06

to leave, and then she's like, fine, I'll do it. And

52:08

I think that's maybe the first little glimpse

52:11

that we get about Papa and

52:13

like having this off handed comment

52:16

from this woman. And then

52:18

I mean, the big arc of it is that she

52:21

ends up coming over to his house

52:24

one night, getting super drunk

52:26

during a snowstorm, tries

52:28

to like hook up with him, he doesn't

52:31

want it, and then she runs away, accusing

52:33

him of sexual assault, takes the

52:35

memoir and all the pages,

52:38

and then disappears completely

52:41

completely from her

52:43

job. That is a really important detail you

52:46

forgot. She stole the blanket

52:48

off of his bed. She

52:51

didn't take it home with her. She didn't take it home

52:53

with her, But when he was getting the pizza

52:56

or something like, he stepped out of the room for a

52:58

moment and she had gone up into his

53:00

bedroom and taking the comforter

53:02

off of his bed and wrapped herself in

53:05

it, and I was just like, she

53:07

has no boundary. She

53:10

so aggressive, just like eventually

53:13

like getting her own beers and just

53:16

being like, well, what are we doing for dinner?

53:19

Just oh, yeah,

53:21

he hasn't given her. She took it

53:23

out. She took it out the

53:25

check that he gave her, like

53:28

my and she

53:31

has the most aggressive person in

53:33

this book. Yeah, she's

53:36

so weird. She's played by Juliette

53:38

Louis, to which I feel that

53:42

makes sense to me that I

53:44

haven't that actually want to watch the I

53:46

haven't watched it, but that detail,

53:48

I'm like, I want to see that. That's

53:51

perfect casting. Yes, I agreed,

53:54

I haven't watched any of it yet and

53:56

I didn't look at any casting either. Can

53:59

I also say there's one the one very

54:01

funny detail about Nidra, And

54:04

maybe it's like funny just because the rest of this

54:06

book is so pitch black, but the fact

54:08

that she's like she when he like checks

54:10

in with hers, she's like, you shouldn't

54:12

give this book to your mom. You haven't read

54:14

this. This sucks, And she's

54:16

like, this book straight up sucks, and your

54:19

grandfather is a misogynist and like

54:21

a nightmare Yeah,

54:24

it's funny because that whole

54:26

section it felt like comedy

54:29

even though it's so dark. But

54:31

it just everything else is so bleakly

54:34

sad that somehow like a woman

54:36

being aggressive

54:38

while trying to fulfill his mom's

54:41

dying wish and going crazy and

54:43

losing the one thing that was gifted

54:45

to him is like what a farce? Yeah,

54:50

no, it is really firsical, but it also made

54:53

me really sad a very at some point hess

54:55

his grandfather's grave and

54:57

honest, grandfather's grave is written the great

55:00

His griefs are silent, and clearly

55:02

this was a man who like tried to air those

55:04

griefs and he tried to put them someplace,

55:06

and he tried to write about them, and now they're

55:08

just gone and nobody will ever

55:11

know about She's got to come back.

55:13

Yeah, come back for sure. I

55:16

feel like there will be a return because it feel

55:18

like and this may seem obvious,

55:21

but that it's it is such

55:23

a mirror of like he is writing this memoir

55:25

even though it's fiction, like it is this memoir

55:28

of his life, and it

55:30

does go keep going back to his childhood

55:33

and teenage years and building out the story

55:35

of him and his brother and then

55:37

he is like trying to craft

55:40

this, like bring back this

55:42

memoir of his grandfather. And

55:45

it does feel like obvious parallels

55:47

between the two of like this man, it's all

55:49

from his own it's all from his perspective, you

55:51

know, and it does feel

55:54

and it kind of bounces around, and so it

55:56

feels like it's paralleling to

55:59

build. I just have a quick question, what

56:01

because I don't know if it's just my

56:03

I got an old copy, but my pages are

56:05

like purposefully and

56:09

like the like the book the

56:11

Grandfather is like manuscript is described.

56:14

When I first got it, my girlfriend was like, Okay,

56:17

that book is fucked up. Don't bring it into

56:19

the bedroom, like thinking like

56:21

it's cursed, like it's like

56:23

it's like I had like damaged or like

56:26

filthy, like we didn't know. But then I looked at it, I was like,

56:28

wait a minute, no, this is intentional.

56:31

Yeah, that's so good. I think

56:34

the idea that the best Greeks are silent

56:36

like that is I feel like the struggle to be

56:38

able to own your story is

56:40

like this is toxic masculinity.

56:43

The musical oh yeah, yeah

56:46

no, And it's just clearly continuing the cycle

56:48

with another Italian American man named Dominic

56:51

who is trying to share his grief

56:54

in some way that that

56:56

he can at least put it in someplace. I

56:59

hope get to read some of um.

57:03

Yeah, yeah, I really want to know

57:05

what He and Grandma aren't buried together, like

57:08

something something bad happened. More

57:10

about Mars past. I

57:13

want to know who their father is. I wonder if it's their

57:15

father is. And you know what, in normal

57:17

people, we never found out who Connell's

57:20

father was, and I want to know who

57:22

Dominic and Thomas's father is. I want

57:24

to know who people's fathers are. Now maybe

57:27

that's my require. We should

57:29

just have to know. We should be fathering every

57:32

book we read. We never know who the father is.

57:39

That's the theme of this podcast now

57:42

no longer about things getting turned

57:44

into TV. It's

57:47

the father thing. One thing that stood out to me

57:49

when he was talking about Ray there was the end of

57:51

one chapter was like, our father could

57:54

be anyone. It could be Alessandro, could

57:56

be this person, it could be that person, could be anyone in the world,

57:58

but it's definitely not Ray. And it's

58:00

just so interesting, like

58:03

how I mean, Ray is a terrible man,

58:05

but just how he like we

58:08

will never accept that Ray is his father,

58:10

you know. Yeah. He constantly

58:12

is reminding people that Ray stepfather,

58:15

although although they have

58:18

raised last name, which I think is notable

58:20

and sort of an interesting thing that Thomas

58:23

never or Dominic rather, never rebelled

58:25

against, never changed. He sort of

58:28

tacitly accepts that Ray

58:31

is the father figure in his life while

58:33

still vehemently believed,

58:35

knowing in his heart that he is just his stepfather.

58:38

Yeah. Yeah,

58:41

Ray loves in his childhood his

58:44

grandfather built and they they once had

58:46

their mom's last name, because early on they

58:48

mentioned that when they were born, and it was like a

58:50

news story because they were born

58:53

on the New Year's that they

58:56

had their mom's last name. But then when she married

58:58

Ray, they all sort of took that heteronormative

59:02

nineteen fifties little family ideal,

59:05

which is such an interesting detail. Good job, Wally.

59:07

The twins, the

59:10

twins being on either side

59:12

of the year, I was like, okay,

59:19

and like the first half and second half

59:21

of the century to he's

59:25

going to say. I think it's also an indication

59:27

of how separate they are as twins,

59:29

even though they came from the same egg

59:32

and everything. They're not even born the same

59:34

day or the same year. That's how wildly

59:36

different they even though they look the same.

59:39

Half of the century. Wally really he's

59:41

he's going in, can

59:44

we take can we take bets on if

59:46

we find out? Or not? Who thinks we will find

59:48

out? Who we're gonna I

59:50

think we're gonna find think. I don't

59:53

think we're gonna I don't think we're gonna find out. All

59:56

right, Well, so me, Tne and Jennifer

59:58

find out and that and Melissa

1:00:01

or I'll never find out. No Ma gets a love

1:00:03

story. I want mom to have a lost love. But

1:00:08

I'm going to it's

1:00:11

going to be a bad It's going to be a charge today,

1:00:13

and I think it's gonna be bad. Yeah,

1:00:16

either way. It's going to be deeply

1:00:19

religious and has these

1:00:21

babies out of wedlock, and then also

1:00:23

never tells anyone, and they say there

1:00:26

are two things they never talked about, who their

1:00:28

father is and their most left

1:00:30

lip. And she brings up

1:00:32

the lip once, but then never bring

1:00:34

up the father. So I

1:00:37

feel like there's something bad there or something

1:00:39

sad there that I don't want to get

1:00:41

into. Although the religious

1:00:43

element is interesting that it could sort of be an immaculate

1:00:46

conception reference m

1:00:49

hmm. Or she

1:00:51

could have had sex with a priest. That's

1:00:53

where. Oh that story

1:00:56

where she brought up the cleft lip to the

1:00:59

so sad, so sad with

1:01:01

the glasses and he really

1:01:03

shut the hell up after that. And

1:01:05

then and it was still an asshole

1:01:08

about it. He was still an asshole. And then he puts

1:01:10

on the glasses and see and it's amazed by

1:01:12

however, which I remember that because I, you

1:01:14

know, wear glasses or in contacts.

1:01:16

And I remember in high school, I kept

1:01:19

on asking this girl in front of me. I was in the back

1:01:21

of my math class, and I was like, what does that say? And I

1:01:23

was like this math teacher is like just

1:01:25

not uh like focusing

1:01:28

the projector it's so annoying. And then

1:01:31

she's like, Melissa, do you want to try on my glasses?

1:01:33

And I was like okay. And I was like, that's

1:01:36

how the world looks to people,

1:01:38

like you can see leaves on trees

1:01:41

all the time. Um. So

1:01:43

I feel like that moment amazing.

1:01:48

But then he doesn't tell his mom, you know, he doesn't

1:01:50

tell his mom that actually this is wonderful. You

1:01:52

know, poor mom,

1:01:55

long suffering, she's the real martyr. Yeah,

1:01:58

she doesn't even get the luck that for

1:02:03

clock, for the for the typewriter.

1:02:06

Yeah. So what else do people

1:02:08

want to see in the in the next chapters

1:02:11

of the book. I

1:02:13

want to see uh. I want to see Grandfather

1:02:15

Dominico's memoir. I'm really

1:02:18

curious about what she was up there writing

1:02:20

all that time I loved and I hope

1:02:22

that means the return of Nedre. I

1:02:25

just want to see a little bit more of Mesthyndra

1:02:28

doing something crazy. Um,

1:02:31

being a real weird, real

1:02:33

weird fun girl. Truly

1:02:36

a messy legend. We

1:02:42

stand a messy legend. Karama,

1:02:47

what about you? Did you get a did you get a request

1:02:50

for for where? Obviously? Well?

1:02:53

I want to see the paternity obviously, but also

1:02:55

I want to see Thomas. Okay,

1:02:58

Like I want to see a positive, sustainable

1:03:01

future for Thomas, because

1:03:04

I, like, I don't think I've talked about this, but

1:03:06

one of my worst fears is being institutionalized.

1:03:09

Like um, all of my worst fears

1:03:11

were actually realized in season two of American

1:03:14

Horror Story. It was like it was handcrafted

1:03:16

to torture me because I'm afraid of being

1:03:18

murdered for my skin and I'm

1:03:20

afraid of Nazis and I'm afraid

1:03:23

of being institutionalized, and all

1:03:25

of that's in there also, so

1:03:28

yeah, so um.

1:03:31

But I feel like he's in this position

1:03:34

where he was in a

1:03:36

pretty good spot and now he's obviously

1:03:39

gotten into a worst spot. And I really

1:03:41

don't want him to be in Hatch

1:03:44

for like years and years and years. And

1:03:47

I think that there's nobody at

1:03:49

this point in the book that can

1:03:52

take on the responsibility of

1:03:54

being his full time caregiver outside

1:03:56

of a facility. And I think that he does benefit

1:03:59

from being in a facility where he can get

1:04:01

round the round the clock care people who

1:04:04

are trained in how to properly

1:04:07

handle his his schizophrenic

1:04:10

delusions and everything. But I

1:04:12

would like to see him back at Settle, and I would

1:04:14

like to see some of the stuff that Dr Patel

1:04:16

talks about in the last chapter, where

1:04:18

it's about like getting him into a group

1:04:20

home or something where he

1:04:22

is able to be his own advocate

1:04:25

and do adult things that some of us

1:04:27

sort of take for granted, like paying bills

1:04:30

and stuff like that. So that's

1:04:32

that's something that I'd like to see. We still have a lot of book

1:04:34

to go. I have no idea what's

1:04:36

going to happen, but I hope

1:04:39

something good happens for Thomas. Dr

1:04:41

Potel gives me hope, Like that chapter

1:04:44

really gave me a lot of hope for him and for

1:04:47

Dominic, Like it felt like she was

1:04:49

really breaking through Dominic,

1:04:51

getting through his rage issues and all of

1:04:53

that, and it seems hopeful, like it's

1:04:56

the sort of co therapy thing that she's

1:04:58

doing by like the setup

1:05:00

of that seems interesting. Can I say something

1:05:03

very silly? Um? I

1:05:05

love like genre, like genre,

1:05:09

mystery, sci fi, like all of that sort

1:05:11

of stuff, And that's a lot of what I read,

1:05:13

and I like, at some point

1:05:15

my brain, especially the Dr Bretel chapter

1:05:18

one, to like what if they're the same person

1:05:21

and if this is just all delusions? But

1:05:24

it's like he'th on the outside and Dr

1:05:26

Bartell is like, yeah, let's talk about your twin,

1:05:29

and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, I don't. Like, No,

1:05:31

that's not what this book is. It's not what this

1:05:33

book is. It's

1:05:39

not it it's it's just a sad

1:05:41

story. I just wanted it to be more like

1:05:44

a like a fight club story that's

1:05:46

supposed to just like obliquely sad story.

1:05:50

I know when I was first reading it, my brain was like, Okay,

1:05:52

can this get better if they accidentally take Dominic

1:05:55

instead of Thomas and Dominic

1:05:57

is in hatching and I was like, well, he cut his hand

1:05:59

off, so there's no I'm gonna say, there's

1:06:01

no, He's not mistaken them anyway, there's

1:06:04

no mistaken them. I did want to

1:06:06

just say a quick thing about Dr Ptell is she was

1:06:08

so smart and so slick, and that she

1:06:11

knows that Dominic is such a martyr that

1:06:13

he will do things to help Thomas,

1:06:15

that the only way that he would agree

1:06:18

to like this therapy that he so desperately

1:06:20

needs, is that Dr ptel frames

1:06:23

its like, will you do this for me

1:06:25

to help Tom? Ye? And

1:06:27

You're like, well, she I think, I mean, of

1:06:30

course she knows that. It's also definitely helped

1:06:32

her Dominic, And I'm like, ah,

1:06:34

you're so good at this. Oh there's

1:06:37

something that we have not talked about. What

1:06:41

we didn't talk about the fact that they asked Dominic

1:06:43

if he wanted to Reattach Thomas's

1:06:46

hand. Oh. Yes,

1:06:50

but he had to make that choice. He had

1:06:52

to say no, don't Reattach

1:06:54

his hand. And I

1:06:56

think part of it. He said it was because

1:06:58

he's just going to cut it off again, because

1:07:01

that's what Thomas said. He was like, I'm just gonna

1:07:03

cut it off again, dude. But I

1:07:05

think also it's a way to distinguish himself

1:07:08

finally, visually, I

1:07:11

hadn't even thought about that. Yeah,

1:07:15

a real tangible

1:07:17

difference. So it's like he can't take You're

1:07:20

right, like obviously, I mean hopefully

1:07:22

in a world they wouldn't like put Dominic

1:07:24

in the hatch by accident, but you're right now

1:07:26

they know they definitely can't. I

1:07:29

mean, he could just grow a beard, Dominic,

1:07:32

you know, like I

1:07:34

feel a little easier, or

1:07:36

start wearing his glasses again because Thomas

1:07:38

doesn't wear glasses. Yeah,

1:07:41

Thomas Thomas is Superman and Dominicus

1:07:44

Clark Kent. He

1:07:47

seemed to really resent that comparison. He was

1:07:49

like, man, I'm

1:07:52

superman. Um,

1:07:55

Yeah, that's so it's interesting

1:07:57

he he ascribes that decision also to

1:07:59

this link of like Thomas all

1:08:01

the agency has been taken out of his life,

1:08:04

where it's like he's making this decision,

1:08:06

and so he's gonna let Thomas have that decision,

1:08:09

which I sort of I get.

1:08:12

That's like such amazing, although with

1:08:14

someone who would unilaterally the sectimize

1:08:16

yourself in a marriage. Uh, he

1:08:19

attends to seems to be someone who is good

1:08:21

at making unilateral decisions. Yeah,

1:08:24

And you know it is interesting, it wasse

1:08:26

ectomy is not mutilation,

1:08:29

but it is a form of like cutting

1:08:31

something off, so

1:08:33

they in order to in a martyr sort

1:08:35

of way. So it does feel like they both have voluntarily

1:08:38

done this thing that is

1:08:41

very detrimental to their lives, like

1:08:43

to their body. Do you think do

1:08:46

you think the dominant thinks it's

1:08:48

his fault that Angela died, like

1:08:51

that there's something wrong with his ability to create

1:08:53

a healthy baby, And like for

1:08:55

me, I feel like he's scared that he's going to have a

1:08:57

kid that has paranoid schizophrenia. Yeah,

1:09:00

I think absolutely. I think he thinks his genes

1:09:03

are are messed

1:09:05

up because of because of Thomas. I mean,

1:09:07

that's the scary thing about

1:09:09

having an identical twin is knowing

1:09:12

that your genetics are the same, that you have the same

1:09:14

like predispositions. Yeah,

1:09:16

it's a it's a scary scary

1:09:18

thing. And

1:09:20

maybe he just thinks that like if another

1:09:23

baby were to die, he

1:09:25

just physically couldn't be stoic

1:09:27

through that, Like he would just explode. The

1:09:29

tupperware would burst, they would because

1:09:32

he has His only coping mechanism is

1:09:34

to tamp it down, and he has no more tamp space.

1:09:39

It's a it's a tragedy. It's

1:09:41

interesting how we can all feel so sad for this

1:09:44

man. And I don't think any of us would

1:09:46

like him if we met on his side

1:09:48

for a maximum of three pages. That's

1:09:50

what I've realized. I'm like, oh

1:09:53

yeah, and then he like says a

1:09:55

slur and I'm like, no, I

1:09:57

just remember who you are. I

1:10:00

remembered at your core who you

1:10:02

are. And also

1:10:04

all of them, all

1:10:06

of the scenes where he like loses

1:10:09

his temper, especially in the institution.

1:10:12

It's like or with with the cop and with it,

1:10:14

with all of like he almost

1:10:17

has it, and then he just goes

1:10:20

too far and you're reminded of who he

1:10:22

really is and you're just so mad.

1:10:24

It's like, no, you could have convinced him

1:10:26

if you just kept your cool

1:10:29

and weren't so hateful, but

1:10:31

you are, so it's a problem. He's

1:10:34

someone who thinks that the world is against him. Some

1:10:36

of the tenderest moments in the book or when people

1:10:38

are able to break people though. That's why I loved

1:10:40

the scenes with Dr Ptel so much. Yeah,

1:10:43

that she's she's She's able

1:10:45

to get him to talk about his childhood, and it

1:10:48

feels like, um, there's almost superhuman

1:10:51

power coming from her with a

1:10:53

man who is with

1:10:55

people who are very often trying what

1:10:58

was her name? She Dr

1:11:00

Sheffers a

1:11:03

great scene too, and I love them. Yeah,

1:11:06

she's like, I'm not I'm not a gal, I

1:11:09

am a woman woman.

1:11:12

I didn't like how she kept calling him paisano,

1:11:14

which I had to look up because I'm not Italian.

1:11:17

And apparently it literally translates to

1:11:19

peasant but is, which

1:11:22

is interesting because of the peasant Sicilian.

1:11:24

But it literally translates to peasant

1:11:27

but the like the slang is like a

1:11:29

friend pal homie.

1:11:32

I thought. She's also kind of a weirdo. Yeah,

1:11:35

super weird. There are

1:11:37

a lot of interesting women in

1:11:39

this, Like I feel like he's surrounded by

1:11:42

all of these women who he clearly hates

1:11:44

on a visceral level. Um,

1:11:48

and what he

1:11:50

really does I want to see

1:11:52

joy leave? I know. Oh that's one

1:11:54

thing. Yeah, it

1:11:57

is interesting because he is surrounded by all these

1:11:59

women in Wall Wally, you describe

1:12:01

their boobs way too much. But um, but

1:12:04

outside of that, I feel like they are so

1:12:07

well formed and unique perspectives

1:12:11

and the way they interact with him are so different

1:12:13

and memorable. And I feel like we're

1:12:16

a man that kind of hates women. Like

1:12:19

the central character. It is so interesting

1:12:21

to be in these scenes

1:12:23

with all these very strong personalities

1:12:27

that challenge him in different ways. I

1:12:30

love what Dr Brotel like. There's

1:12:33

that one moment in the beginning where she's like, he's

1:12:35

like, what kind of tea do you want? And he's like whatever,

1:12:37

and he's like whatever. That's the male

1:12:40

way of just you know, throwing things away, and

1:12:42

it's very decide

1:12:45

and it's like and he and he acquiesces.

1:12:48

It's like, oh wow, Dr Brotell, you are good

1:12:50

at this. Yeah, He's

1:12:52

like, I'll take the spiced one. I

1:12:55

think we're all writers, you

1:12:57

know, to some degree, and so I wonder to how

1:12:59

to what level? I think very

1:13:01

often when when I'm reading a good book,

1:13:03

I don't see the strings. But then sometimes when I,

1:13:05

like I was writing notes for this, you sort of see

1:13:08

the strings a little bit or what's effective,

1:13:10

and like he says he's surprised

1:13:13

dominic Is when he agrees to accept the

1:13:15

tea, and I was like, that's a very poignant

1:13:17

detail that he's willing to sit down and like literally

1:13:21

drink tea with someone, because the act of

1:13:23

like drinking or consuming food with someone

1:13:25

is like a very intimate, vulnerable thing.

1:13:28

And I was like, oh, really, look

1:13:30

at this

1:13:33

guy. When I was when I

1:13:35

was in college, there was a guy who

1:13:38

told me. He said that he thought that sex

1:13:40

was the most intimate thing you could do for someone, and

1:13:42

the second most intimate thing you could do for someone was make

1:13:44

them a meal, which I thought

1:13:47

was really interesting because he was like, was

1:13:49

that was that the first thing he said to you? No,

1:13:53

no, no no. And this was not a guy that was like trying

1:13:55

to hit on me or anything. But he went

1:13:58

to he went to an other college

1:14:01

nearby that focused on culinary school,

1:14:04

and so he worked in one

1:14:06

of our eateries as in the kitchen, and I

1:14:08

was like friends with the people in the kitchen because I love food.

1:14:11

So I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna

1:14:13

make real good friends with all the people who are responsible

1:14:15

for the food so then I can get more food,

1:14:18

which works. And but

1:14:21

so he we would hang out when he was on his brakes

1:14:23

and on shifts and stuff, and it wasn't like a

1:14:26

sexy thing, but it was just an interesting perspective.

1:14:29

And just in terms of having

1:14:31

this tea, I do think it is a very

1:14:34

intimate thing that she's

1:14:36

doing, making him this tea, and the ritual

1:14:38

of it all and how she gets

1:14:40

into her own history with tea, and

1:14:43

it leads into us learning a lot about her

1:14:45

because she's Indians, so I think we all kind of had

1:14:47

that assumption. It's like, oh, yeah, no, she's been drinking

1:14:50

tea and she's like, no, I

1:14:52

never drank tea in India. I didn't get into tea

1:14:54

until I was in you know, school

1:14:56

in London. Yeah. It's

1:14:58

also the one time that we to see maybe

1:15:01

the only moment of like pure joy

1:15:04

from Dominic where he's like it warmed

1:15:06

me up and it smelled very good, and I was like, uh,

1:15:09

what an uncomplicated emotion of joy

1:15:12

that you just had the first

1:15:14

one in two hundred and fifty pages.

1:15:17

Well, and along with that, Dan,

1:15:20

it's like that's the first time when he starts

1:15:22

like asking questions about

1:15:24

her, like he starts star starts relaxing

1:15:27

about his brother for the first time, and

1:15:29

just like enjoys a conversation with

1:15:32

somebody and engages with her,

1:15:34

and he's like, I don't know why, but I liked her. Maybe

1:15:37

it's just because she's a nice person. I don't know. Well,

1:15:39

there's also something very much about

1:15:42

making food for people or making tea for someone.

1:15:45

It's something that you can very easily imagine

1:15:47

his mother doing and something

1:15:49

that maybe is certainly

1:15:52

his mother if she was. I'm pretty

1:15:54

sure Ray made sure that his mother

1:15:56

had all the meals from the time, like

1:16:00

yeah, I'm yeah, um, I'm

1:16:02

sure if all the meals might have been horrifying at his house

1:16:04

because his brother was being made to eat

1:16:06

like a dog, it was something that his mother consistently

1:16:09

prepared. Maybe that was a memory

1:16:11

he could go back to. When dominic is describing

1:16:14

Dessa some a woman that he really loved,

1:16:16

it's obvious that he really put her on a pedestal

1:16:19

in a way that doesn't really signify the type

1:16:21

of love that I think makes a sustainable relationship,

1:16:24

because thinking someone's like a perfect

1:16:26

angel isn't seeing them, and

1:16:29

I think everyone wants to be fundamentally seen,

1:16:31

and that you know, he really idolizes

1:16:34

Dessa in a way that makes especially

1:16:36

when he tells the story of their marriage dissolving.

1:16:39

I think even though he's the one telling it

1:16:41

from his side, it's incredibly It was

1:16:43

obvious to me Whydessa had

1:16:46

to leave and should have left. So it

1:16:48

was, like you said, really gratifying to see him

1:16:50

like open up a little to Dr Patel

1:16:52

and asked her about her life and

1:16:54

this, you know, doctor with grandchildren

1:16:57

seems to be a really interesting, wonderful person.

1:17:00

M h um. That seems like a hopeful

1:17:03

place to end, you know, with with Domin

1:17:06

maybe trying to open up. This was lovely.

1:17:09

I think next time the next fifteen

1:17:11

chapters. Yeah, yeah,

1:17:13

that sounds great. That's

1:17:19

our show for the week. Thank you so much for listening.

1:17:22

I'm Danish Schwartz and you can find me on Twitter

1:17:24

at Danish Schwartz with three z's. You

1:17:26

can follow Jennifer Wright at jen Ashley

1:17:29

Right. Garamadanqua is at Karama

1:17:31

Drama, Melissa Hunter is at Melissa

1:17:34

ft W and Tian Tran is

1:17:36

smart enough to have gotten off Twitter, but she is

1:17:38

on Insta at Hank Tina. Our executive

1:17:41

producer is Christopher Hessiotes. At We're

1:17:43

produced and edited by Mike John's. Next

1:17:46

week we'll go further into the heart of darkness

1:17:48

of I know this much is true. It does feel

1:17:50

like human atrocity bingo. It

1:17:53

felt like Wally was like, how do we make this

1:17:55

even more fucked up? Oh, what do we

1:17:57

think the prize is for human atrocity bingo? I

1:18:00

think a nap. I

1:18:02

think a long daytime nap. Popcorn

1:18:06

book Club is a production of I Heart Radio