0:02

This is the Popular Front podcast

0:04

with me, Jake Hanrahan. We're

0:07

focused on the niche details of

0:09

modern warfare and underreported conflict all

0:12

across the world. Popular Front

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is completely independent. This

0:18

episode we're speaking to journalists

0:20

Lindsay Kennedy and Nathan Paul

0:23

Southern about how the

0:25

British government is possibly fueling Rwanda

0:27

M23 death squads in Congo. The

0:30

British government has turned a blind

0:32

eye to many of the atrocities

0:34

because they have a partnership with

0:37

them because they want to deport

0:40

refugees and immigrants out to Rwanda

0:42

from Britain. It's absolutely insane but

0:44

what can you expect from this

0:46

government we have? Support

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Popular Front at patreon.com/Popular

0:52

Front. So

1:02

you've been in Congo, you've been

1:05

dealing with this story regarding Britain,

1:07

Rwanda, death squads. I

1:09

think before we go into all that

1:11

let's maybe start with Britain and this

1:14

strange deal that Britain

1:16

has where they'll start deporting immigrants, migrants,

1:18

refugees, what have you to Rwanda because

1:20

I think a lot of people in

1:22

the rest of the world are very

1:25

unaware of this. Even in Britain I

1:27

think people are quite unaware of the ins and outs of it. So if

1:30

you don't mind I think let's start with that. What is

1:32

it? What is this deal that Britain has with Rwanda? Okay,

1:34

yeah. So the deal is

1:36

officially called the Migration and Economic

1:38

Development Partnership, right? The idea of

1:41

it is that the

1:43

UK was basically shopping around for

1:45

a way to shunt migrants coming

1:47

into, or refugees really, coming into

1:49

the UK to third countries.

1:51

Obviously places like Australia have been doing that with

1:53

Nauru for a while, it's not the first place

1:55

to do it. They were

1:58

looking for some third countries that would happily take out. refugees.

2:01

The idea of it in theory

2:03

was that it would somehow stop people

2:06

from getting on small boats and taking

2:08

risky journeys across the channel. Obviously that's

2:10

a complete nonsense. I mean if

2:13

you're desperate enough to get on a small boat

2:15

that might sink, you're probably desperate enough to risk

2:17

the possibility that you'll get processed in a different country

2:19

than the one you end up in, but that's

2:21

a separate point. But the idea that

2:23

they were shopping around for a while trying to find a

2:26

country that would accept a deal, that

2:28

would mean that basically they'd pay them to take

2:30

on a whole bunch of refugees

2:32

from the UK. Everyone pretty

2:34

much turned them down apart from Rwanda. In

2:37

the UK, this is often pitched

2:39

as kind of like a thing where

2:42

thousands or tens of thousands of northernly

2:44

knows how many refugees will

2:46

be sent to Rwanda and then they will

2:48

handle the processing, figure out if they're real

2:50

refugees and then if they are real refugees,

2:52

they will be allowed to stay in Rwanda

2:55

and if they're not, they get deported home.

2:57

What is less coveted is that actually it's

2:59

a two-way street. So Rwanda, as part of

3:01

it, negotiated a clause that means they'd also

3:04

be able to send some of their most

3:06

vulnerable refugees to the UK. Their most vulnerable

3:08

refugees are, tend to be Congolese refugees who've

3:10

been living in camps already in the country

3:12

for about 20 years. There's 120, 130,000, sorry, Congolese

3:14

refugees living in refugee camps

3:19

at the moment in Rwanda. And no

3:21

one knows how many of them would

3:23

come to the UK as part of

3:25

this exchange. So it's a little bit

3:27

complicated, but the whole thing was basically

3:29

invented as a way to sort of

3:31

appease a small sector of the right wing in

3:33

the UK by saying that they were going to

3:35

be, they had a way to basically, yeah, offload

3:37

refugees to a third country. And they

3:40

know that it's almost certainly not going

3:42

to work. Again, it is just that

3:44

thing that they can say to be

3:46

like, hey, look, we're stopping them coming

3:48

in. But the very basis of the

3:50

whole deal is, again, it's international law,

3:53

right? They say anyone who enters the

3:55

country illegally, but you physically can't enter

3:57

a country illegally if you then immediately

4:00

claim asylum. That's how the asylum system

4:02

is set up and there's no other

4:05

what they call legal routes to apply. There's

4:07

technically some from Afghanistan and we have to

4:09

go through the Taliban so obviously that's not

4:11

going to work. There's technically some from Syria,

4:14

they're pretty much going and there are some

4:16

from Ukraine and Hong Kong which are pretty much the

4:18

ones they want to know. They just cancelled most of

4:20

the Ukraine, like the

4:22

Ukraine deal for accepting

4:25

refugees. They cancelled it the same day

4:27

they announced it which has left

4:29

loads of people completely stranded.

4:32

The whole thing is completely

4:34

disgusting. But also like the

4:36

whole argument behind it is, on

4:38

one hand the argument is that this will deter

4:40

people from coming to the UK because they'll get

4:42

sent to Rwanda and then when they're

4:45

told by judges who've tried to shoot

4:47

it down by other

4:49

countries in Kondanda, well you can't be

4:51

punishing refugees to come into your country. They

4:53

say, oh but Rwanda is a completely safe country

4:55

so it's not a deterrent and it's like, well

4:57

then both of those things can't be true. Why

5:00

would people not risk coming to the UK because

5:03

of this if it wasn't a deterrent? And

5:06

how much is the British government paying

5:08

to Rwanda as part of this? Well

5:10

so far they've paid nearly a quarter of

5:12

a billion pounds to

5:14

them. Quarter of a billion? Yeah. And

5:18

no one knows where any of that money has gone. So

5:20

that was kind of the starting point for this story to

5:22

be honest because of that money only

5:24

20 million has actually been earmarked

5:26

for actual pre-processing costs. Note that not obviously

5:28

not a single refugee has actually been sent

5:31

yet. There was one attempt to deport a

5:33

very small number, I think it was like

5:35

seven or something, seven people were meant to

5:37

be deported and that's like a grounded. So

5:40

Rwanda hasn't actually had to pay for anything yet. So

5:43

20 million was supposed to be used for

5:45

pre-processing costs. The other 220 million, there's no

5:47

receipts basically. And

5:51

we wanted to, we want to look into

5:53

this because there has been a lot of

5:55

coverage on this, but the coverage in the

5:57

UK, it has been a little bit shallow

5:59

in a way. It's been about

6:01

a Harrys the Tories are really

6:03

struggling. less it clear that says

6:05

a piece of food or a

6:08

great day you get a good.

6:10

The old race is on board

6:12

with a new plan said smack

6:14

by some migrants by then the

6:17

only that's the only real time

6:19

the live to Rwanda was when

6:21

the for strength when then home

6:24

secretary ah was the smell Robin

6:26

first when i i'm the only

6:28

let us huge trusted journalists. Go

6:30

eyes I think what we have the

6:32

Daily Mail Metallic Ross ah any threat

6:35

to cool of the government publication was

6:37

was born from latency of courses and

6:39

we basically we once in a taxi

6:41

starts globe and with data from from

6:43

the during the rwandan and see was

6:46

see what would you miss and on

6:48

on the out to ruin the context

6:50

of this of the have to sign

6:52

of of. This

6:57

is. For.

7:04

Speeding. With with them and

7:07

the same as in and

7:09

that's because there have been.

7:12

Tortured and feather such a. Simple

7:16

as a defensive backs and it's if

7:18

difficult picture for. Quite.

7:28

As funny they chose that plays in one.

7:31

So. This. Is just one

7:33

side of it Is if that wasn't bad enough, Around

7:36

the same time the britain to send

7:38

this core of a billion. A

7:41

load of money is streamed into

7:44

militia. Who. Have then gone in

7:46

and essentially. Acted as death

7:48

squads in Congo kind of reignite in parts

7:50

of that conflict. Can we? Can we go

7:52

into that? Let's let's look it up because.

7:55

Okay, we're not saying definitely, but I'm

7:57

in. The question is is Britain fueling.

8:00

These new Death squad. So

8:02

via Rwanda into Congo I.

8:05

Think it be hard to say that it

8:07

was advocates for the and funny faces at

8:09

a very very. Quick that bans,

8:11

right? So or officer. Em off their

8:13

land the genocide in there in the

8:15

nineties and but soon. as he plymouth

8:17

of mode of the bad as right but like and.

8:20

Six hundred he sees majority m his it

8:22

it seem as mad as am I think

8:24

it with a million hits he says face

8:26

it like a hundred days. With have sex

8:28

with a place and but when the

8:30

when the to see a city that.

8:34

The Senate. Declares displaced. A lot

8:36

of that was saying. that is to be as they.

8:39

Say eating these people fleeing the

8:41

scene and also he's. A. He's a

8:44

and in see an effigy tenth

8:46

and the outside the border. And

8:48

then and then they regrouped. In

8:50

sort of new malicious Harry Reid

8:52

Returnees. Truth he had to

8:54

see and has. And fifty

8:56

minutes is. A good bet.

8:58

That said, and continuing that if the

9:01

pilot for the other. My

9:03

the. but then then in my

9:05

twenties offensive tweets loosely. Thirteen. really,

9:07

really, really nasty. One second, Amersfoort

9:09

the M Twenty three through Earth's

9:11

a pity that one. And.

9:14

And they are mostly been

9:16

completely. That firebombed that they were fully for

9:18

London so does seem a be clearly being funded

9:20

by Rwanda. And at the time he

9:23

can a bunch of other governments and said

9:25

they were going to puede from Rwanda. Rwanda.

9:27

Didn't stop funding that and wonder

9:29

they're. Trying to punish the cancer for

9:31

fucking something like seventy percent of the

9:33

countries in at that. Time. Came from a

9:35

so they can say and then the into a

9:38

fleet of the bed and. A at around

9:40

the block. Fine that the Uk sad

9:42

that they were going and starts looking

9:44

through wonder about doing is refugee policy

9:46

which they were warned would mean would

9:48

make it extremely hard for them to

9:50

criticize any human rights abuses. Borrow one

9:52

setting a home buying their own home

9:54

office that is that happened. Sorry as

9:56

I Foreign Affairs I am. That's when

9:58

the and twenty three such. And

10:00

there is no, there is absolutely no question that

10:02

Rwanda is funding them. Like, Rwanda and soldiers

10:05

turn up there, they have Rwandan hardware. It

10:07

is very, very, very clear they're getting their

10:09

money from Rwanda. And they started, and

10:11

they basically started, they did their first attack

10:13

in 10 years in the weeks leading up

10:15

to signing a Rwanda deal, right? When they

10:17

knew the UK was already under a lot

10:19

of political pressure to support them, no matter

10:21

what they did. And the UK didn't say

10:24

anything. The rest of the world condemned them. The UK

10:26

didn't. And then in the weeks after that,

10:28

we signed the contract, we gave them our first 120

10:30

million. But within a couple of

10:32

weeks after that, a thousand Rwandan soldiers went to

10:34

go and fight with them. So this does

10:37

not seem like a coincidence. Even

10:39

if it's not the literal money going into those accounts that's

10:41

being sent to the M23, they've

10:43

clearly been emboldened to start sending money from them

10:45

again. And they clearly know that they've got so

10:47

much money coming in to replace the aid they're

10:50

going to lose from other countries from the UK

10:52

that they can afford to do that. And

10:55

it's not just happening in

10:57

the DRC. We

10:59

started this reporting trip in

11:01

Burundi, where there had

11:04

been an attack in December by

11:06

a group called the Red Tabara,

11:08

who are another Rwanda-backed

11:10

entity that just started their

11:13

activities again last year after

11:15

all the support had come

11:18

in. And they slaughtered

11:20

a village on the Burundi DRC

11:22

village. I think about 12 children

11:25

were killed, 20 were

11:27

murdered altogether. And

11:29

we went out there and seen that

11:31

village at the beginning of this trip,

11:34

were actually picked up by

11:36

the local police there who were just

11:38

so, so worried that there were spies

11:41

working for the militias over the border in

11:43

the DRC. And they were going to come

11:45

back and attack again. Burundi

11:48

have been so concerned about

11:50

this that they've actually closed

11:52

their land border completely with

11:54

Rwanda, saying that until you

11:56

actually control the militias that

11:58

you are directly. directly fueling

12:00

funding, giving troops and arms to

12:02

to attack our countries, then we

12:05

can trust you to have an

12:07

open border with. So you've got several

12:10

militias that Rwanda is not just

12:12

giving a bit of money here

12:14

and there to, but giving an

12:16

enormous amount of weapons and their

12:19

own troops, sometimes in Rwandan military

12:21

uniforms, to go and get involved

12:23

in these death squads, these rape

12:26

militias and actually take a huge

12:28

amount of land. Now they're

12:30

taking swabs of land in the eastern

12:32

DRC and they're getting closer to the

12:35

regional capital Goma, should be nowhere near

12:37

for the last 13 years. So it's

12:39

not just a militia that the UK

12:41

is indirectly or directly fueling,

12:43

it is actually basically

12:46

an invasion of

12:48

the DRC with

12:50

the help of some proxy death squads

12:52

as well. Just the context as

12:54

well, when the UK started this, when they

12:56

said that we had this backlog

12:59

of asylum claims, it was a

13:01

complete crisis, we had 92,000 people

13:03

in a backlog of trying to

13:06

apply for asylum. In the

13:09

week before signing

13:12

the deal with Rwanda, Rwanda backed

13:14

attacks with

13:16

DRC created I think 45,000 new refugees,

13:19

the equivalent of about half the people

13:21

that were currently waiting

13:23

in the UK system. And since

13:25

then, they've created a million refugees

13:27

directly, this one group has created

13:29

a million refugees in

13:31

the DRC. So like any

13:34

suggestion that like using Rwanda

13:36

to help alleviate the global

13:38

like migration and refugee crisis

13:40

is just absolutely insane. It

13:43

is, but it's not remotely surprising if

13:45

anyone has kept track of this government.

13:47

And by this government, I don't mean

13:49

the Tories, I think they're both just

13:51

a joke. I very much doubt

13:53

that if Labour gets in, they're going to reverse any of

13:55

this, to be honest with you. But I

13:57

mean, the British government as a whole is I mean, it's

14:00

very unserious country now doing extremely

14:02

brutal things like this. Let's

14:04

just get an idea of what actually these groups are doing

14:06

on the ground. I know you touched on it there, but

14:08

you guys have been reporting on the ground with

14:10

people that have been directly affected, chased

14:12

out, raped, all

14:14

sorts of awful stuff from these militias. Just,

14:18

I was reading your article and the

14:20

thing that really hit me is where they're saying like,

14:22

we've come from Rwanda, we're going to ruin you stuff

14:24

like this. This is particularly brutal. Yeah,

14:27

just give us an idea of what kind of

14:29

stuff is happening on the ground. Yeah, I mean,

14:31

it's absolutely everywhere. You can't escape it. When

14:34

you get into GOMA, which the

14:36

conflict hasn't officially reached yet, the

14:39

security situation is so tense. Every

14:42

night there was more

14:44

and more shell and it was getting closer and closer.

14:47

There are Congolese are having to use more

14:50

Eastern European mercenary groups who

14:54

are just trying to fight back the M20V

14:56

because they're getting so close to the city.

14:58

And then when we go to the refugee

15:00

camps, everyone had their

15:03

own horrific story and they were

15:05

all concerning the M23. You

15:08

know, there was mothers with seven children who

15:10

explained that their village had been taken over

15:13

and while she was talking to us, the

15:16

artillery was just flying overhead and

15:19

she explained that they had to leave

15:21

their village simply because M23 had taken

15:23

it. They would take

15:25

everyone in the town's money and

15:27

they would just rape all

15:29

of the women that they could get hold of and

15:32

this was the same story. We

15:34

were getting village to village as

15:36

the M23 kept getting closer and

15:38

closer to the city. So, yeah,

15:41

the Human Rights Watch, we didn't manage to make

15:43

it to this particular village. It was like absolutely

15:45

nowhere, getting there when we were there. But

15:47

the Pitocos Peninsula Show, which is sort of north of where

15:49

we were. And the

15:51

M23 went through there late last

15:53

year and

15:56

by the time they left, when Human

15:58

Rights Watch were able to get in there, they... 14

16:01

masquerade. So they're just going through

16:03

and just massacring, just massacring and

16:05

massacring and using

16:07

weapon, or using rape as a weapon of war is a massive part

16:09

of it. And

16:12

absolutely everyone that you speak to, if you ask

16:14

who is this, you have to say M23, if

16:16

you probe them further, they'll say it's Rwanda, it's

16:18

Rwanda, and even a lot of these M23

16:21

fighters have been seen wearing Rwandan

16:24

military uniforms, having the insignia on

16:26

the shoulder, they're barely concealing that

16:29

this is actually just Rwandan forces

16:31

committing these war crimes, and even

16:33

just last year a thousand Rwandan

16:36

troops just went over the border,

16:38

into the DRC pretty brazenly, and

16:41

to help take a helped M23,

16:44

take a fair chunk of land

16:46

in North Kedu and even brought

16:48

down a UN helicopter. Oh yeah,

16:50

shot down a UN helicopter, a

16:52

municipal helicopter. Well, and we're sending

16:54

how much to that country? £350 million so far.

16:59

What is their aim? What is

17:01

the aim of M23 Rwanda? Like

17:03

they're going in, killing, raping, just

17:05

being horrible, awful stuff. What do

17:07

they actually want? Right, so well,

17:10

in theory, I mean, and there is a

17:12

little bit of truth to this

17:15

at the beginning, right? In theory,

17:17

the M23s have always said that

17:19

they are protecting ethnicities in the

17:21

DRC, because there are still

17:24

Hutu groups that attack them. That's the

17:26

excuse, though. The reality is that

17:28

back in 2012, 2013, almost immediately, this group started

17:30

doing exactly the

17:34

same stuff as the Hutu groups were doing.

17:37

They sexually enslaved women, they used child soldiers,

17:39

they did the similar terrific things, but

17:41

it was mostly in the service of

17:43

stealing, you know, very, like, stealing cobalt,

17:46

stealing coltans, stealing gold, and

17:48

then helping to to

17:50

launder that through Rwanda and sell it to the outside

17:53

world. So it's like the same shit

17:55

as always in the DRC, where external countries

17:57

are just desperate to get hold of vital

17:59

men. rules. And so that's a big part of

18:01

it. And then just as the M23's

18:04

got going again this time, there was talk

18:06

that I think Uganda was going to

18:08

try and build new infrastructure that would

18:10

lead into the DRC and might take

18:13

Rwanda out of some of

18:15

those sort of like transits as well. So

18:17

they like Rwanda was worried that it

18:20

would lose important trade routes. But

18:22

I think at the moment like

18:25

the UK is really interested in

18:27

trying to work out how it

18:29

can source theoretically

18:32

conflict free minerals from that region,

18:34

right? So this is kind

18:37

of another useful way that you

18:39

could roll Rwanda plays. Because if

18:41

Rwanda is able to steal a lot of

18:43

the DRC's resources and say they come from

18:45

Rwanda's mines, which are much, much, much smaller,

18:48

the UK companies

18:51

that are rapidly being set up all

18:53

over Rwanda, and are able

18:55

to say that these are conflict free minerals,

18:57

basically, even though they probably come, they

19:00

probably actually come very much from conflict. And

19:02

the M23's a really useful tool

19:04

in doing that because they're able to

19:06

either protect mines or able to steal

19:08

mines that currently exist or they're able

19:11

to basically terrify and push out villages

19:13

who currently live in very useful places

19:15

where you might want to send mining

19:17

into. And that way the UK

19:19

is trying to sell more and more

19:21

of these mining companies that are involved

19:24

in basically laundering the

19:26

origin of these resources. I mean,

19:28

every big player is trying to get a stake

19:30

in the DRC mineral game just now, right? It's

19:32

just, that's just the way that they happen to

19:35

be doing it. China just goes in, builds enormous

19:37

mines, has horrible labor

19:39

practices, basically uses slaves. We're

19:42

pretty certain the Russians

19:45

are kind of gearing up

19:47

to offer security in

19:49

exchange for taking share

19:52

of some mining resources. And

19:54

then Our way, the UK

19:56

way, is this kind of indirect, the at

19:58

least a one- See the this

20:01

enormous some money that set in their arm

20:03

under all that's gone flights and all this

20:05

measure A but they want to try and

20:07

say and this go anyway where they they

20:10

can stick with and smasher regulations and say

20:12

they're they're they're using conflict free cool vote

20:14

was just doesn't exist and often within millennia.

20:17

Thirty I still have you been affected?

20:20

Us They will fight that supposed

20:22

asshole thoughts. On that an

20:24

Easter the Orlando city that was the

20:26

certificate miss. So there is a kind

20:28

of like. I. Mean yeah as

20:30

as a finance and I guess. And

20:33

the kind of to think general idea to. Buy any a

20:35

ship alone sir land that it wouldn't

20:37

be surprised. Food at the Why the

20:39

Titanic that we're gonna last Twenty four

20:41

Team parallels given us who is over

20:43

now region are seen a weakness yes

20:45

this is historically are aligned. If we

20:47

did take that then you know vince

20:49

been Soviet army would be better run

20:51

on the roster Secure you would be

20:53

be more solid than we were actually

20:55

asking this and Rwandan hides message and

20:57

London if they to comment on whether

20:59

or not they were ah few and

21:01

ah read militias next month's I the

21:03

this can only. Vaguely deny that, And

21:06

then they just added veins. Weighed three.

21:08

As. Ah, Congolese problem only well

21:10

says we will not let their

21:12

security issues and to fear of

21:14

our border which is you have

21:16

chemistry a threat to him his

21:18

gift. They're willing to basically said

21:20

more troops and. As

21:23

we support this so this money

21:25

is being funneled to And twenty

21:28

three, Why the run Rwandan government?

21:30

Ah, How do we know dies true.

21:32

We we will get into or if it's the

21:35

same money that the British government said but how

21:37

do we know? That is definitely the ruin the

21:39

government's and in the money to them. Twenty three

21:41

rebels. Are. Least as close as

21:43

we can. I'm a say. This

21:46

is a good he lifts and is it is a

21:48

price of food. Consensus of the My. Nexus every

21:50

government about. Our hands every

21:52

the of major human rights organization

21:54

and the of inside of i

21:57

think you mean it's a his

21:59

life and. The Bike. I

22:01

mean that he visited a clue that you

22:03

can see i am he can see it

22:05

as a rule and and uniforms turn up

22:07

the and that city been donated you can

22:09

see a stance ways we the using am

22:11

much more sophisticated hardware that ten come from

22:13

there i went and army am like that

22:16

they they that they run has physically send

22:18

soldiers to join and they said witnessed going

22:20

across the board of they've been for if

22:22

like scene and satellite imagery and that the

22:24

fact that like rwanda and in the pasture

22:26

ones and commanders have like ten.leading them if

22:28

they're quite clearly everyone's. And creature if

22:31

if the I mean and

22:33

own but. I mean that

22:35

the fact that like as at X, some

22:37

of these ruined and some of the Sarasota

22:39

suburbs me. Said we'd come from or

22:41

one to destroy you will. They're raping women. Since

22:44

I mean as a lot of like that

22:46

as as have a lot of evidence that

22:48

filthy the time that demonstrates. Ah, I'm

22:50

in. I'm in a game maybe

22:52

and circumstantial supreme when the just

22:55

weeks after agreeing to get hundreds

22:57

of millions of pounds from Beauty

23:00

and also that enormous amount of

23:02

and smash them widgets Mrs He

23:04

comes from a country like Beauty.

23:07

See you your country safe. Neumar

23:09

war it was. So that's militant

23:11

group has been dormant for over

23:14

a decade. And

23:16

thousand Sixty one, it's. So

23:19

much. Cause for hims grown to

23:21

be Sunday or another. Thing like that

23:23

you and scary for the past and where they

23:25

found that as the the and twenty three the

23:27

crew is who were about the generals were allowed

23:30

to go into existing refugee camps in Rwanda s

23:32

and recruit young to see man to go and

23:34

fight for them. as a way of getting out

23:36

they can say whatever other there's gotta be obsolete

23:39

of say this I can I mean is this

23:41

a pretty much the same. As.

23:43

If the the same thing that I'm

23:45

in the Usa, the farm and admits

23:47

it's odds to the know this is

23:49

Hop in the Us the department him

23:52

out. About a week ago, I'm saying

23:54

the Rwandan, the Drc are on the

23:56

brink of war on.ah Rwanda needs to

23:58

stop spewing. And twenty three. There

24:00

isn't a d (r) c

24:02

or that war will likely

24:04

escalate ah I'm a h

24:06

a scan of indisputable their

24:08

their length of released without.

24:11

Ah Skyn I mean author I think they're

24:13

running dozen or so minutes of us and

24:15

we author London High Commission in are you

24:17

using any of the Uk money to fund

24:20

the i'm twenty three that the proceeds to

24:22

on seventy wouldn't say nice. We asked the

24:24

you think other the you know whether or

24:26

not and the of this money is used

24:28

to finance ministry they refused. To. Say

24:31

like if I think they all know

24:33

I mean definitely wouldn't just say no

24:36

it's not to was pretty damning with

24:38

a shambles Responsibility Home office was incredible

24:40

to watch for me. was fond of

24:42

the press department and said go quake

24:44

zone Rwanda seared parts in I tunes

24:46

begin on the other save the foreigners

24:49

are clearly good or here's another excuse.

24:51

Another issue about whether or not Rwanda

24:53

safe or we just bought this one

24:55

off is like so you guys few

24:57

and rape militias With this I'm just

24:59

a panicked. And then the response

25:02

he just ignored. Most of the

25:04

questions were any are we to

25:06

secure that I duty money would

25:09

end up in the hands of

25:11

these groups, commit more crimes on

25:13

also completely ignored or comment on

25:16

whether or not the Uk is

25:18

violating episodes sanctions as the have

25:20

sanctions several members of him when

25:23

he free am and have previously

25:25

sanctions. I've Rwandan government officials far

25:28

for the Popular Front is entirely.

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26:16

I mean we all know how the

26:18

world works, it's not, you know, politicians

26:20

are above most laws unless it's like

26:22

convenient for them to not be by

26:24

whatever forces or by forces,

26:27

I don't mean conspiracies, I just mean

26:29

like another politician wanting to push them

26:31

out or whatever. I mean we

26:33

saw it in this country with Boris, you know, it's clear.

26:36

Politicians are generally in the West, especially above

26:39

most like laws if they want to be. And I don't

26:41

think that's an opinion, I think that's, I mean anyone that's

26:43

paying attention, I mean it's obvious. But

26:46

the thing is, this isn't just

26:48

Britain, this is a massive international

26:50

situation. Now granted it's in Africa

26:52

which unfortunately a lot of

26:54

people just don't care what happens there, I

26:56

mean it's very sad, I mean it's just,

26:59

it's as pale as old as time. But

27:02

we are still beholden to

27:04

certain international laws, how

27:07

the fuck is the government

27:09

able to just do this? I

27:11

mean okay, if you want

27:13

like point blank like smoking

27:15

gun evidence maybe it will be different but

27:17

come on it's clear. How is

27:20

this allowed to just happen? I

27:22

really don't know what the answer to that

27:24

is. The

27:26

United States, the

27:28

United Nations and France, who

27:32

we on international issues, the

27:34

UK are usually pretty tightly

27:36

aligned, have been completely clear

27:38

on this. That

27:40

Rwanda is funding and fueling

27:43

and sending fighter 723 who are taking

27:45

illegally annexing parts of the DRC and

27:47

committing war crimes and they have culled

27:49

this out several times and they've increased

27:51

those culls in the last few weeks.

27:55

The UK is the only

27:57

one with a different way of

27:59

wording it. where they say we

28:01

call on external forces to stop

28:03

fueling the conflict and the DRC

28:05

and refuse to say who it

28:07

is. And I wonder

28:10

how much of a pain in the

28:12

arse right now the UK's relationship with

28:14

Rwanda is for the UN, for France

28:16

and from the US who are much

28:18

bigger actors in that part of the

28:20

world than the UK as well, who

28:22

have just decided to sandwich themselves in

28:24

there and potentially get in the middle

28:26

of really complex sanctions, which I think

28:28

all of these countries are really ready to

28:31

explode on Rwanda, which they did

28:33

previously. Last time they did this back in

28:36

2012, they all put sanctions or threatened

28:38

to put sanctions on them, including the UK,

28:40

which stopped Rwanda doing this. Now the only

28:42

difference is the rhetoric's the exact same, the

28:44

outcome's the exact same, but the UK's being

28:46

a lot softer and a lot more careful

28:48

in how it's wording it. But this, well

28:51

yeah, it is Africa, but this

28:53

one actually is monitored

28:57

and cared about more

28:59

than say Central African Republic, right? Because

29:02

this is the home of the vast

29:04

majority of the world's cobalt, coltan, all

29:06

the things that we need in rechargeable

29:08

batteries for mobile phones and for electric

29:10

cars. We need it there as well

29:12

as a huge amount of the world's

29:14

gold resources and just

29:17

so many others. So

29:20

it is really, really important. So countries

29:22

like the US and France won't just

29:24

be able to ignore this and the

29:26

UK is really getting in the way

29:28

of that and going against what their

29:30

interests are. And this is spreading out to the people

29:32

as well. I mean, since this

29:34

conflict's escalated, in the last few

29:37

weeks we've seen massive protests in

29:39

Kinshasa where fire started outside various

29:41

European embassies, NGOs. The

29:45

UN Peacekeeping Force, Minasco, has basically admitted

29:47

that they're getting the hell out of

29:49

the DRC in the next few months

29:52

and that will probably hand over to

29:54

Eastern European mercenary groups. But what's happening

29:56

is they're blaming all of these European

29:58

countries for their for their inaction of

30:01

what's happening in the Eastern DRC, seeing

30:03

that they're actually fueling this conflict

30:05

for their own gain, for the

30:07

resources there. But in actual fact,

30:09

the real ones right now are

30:11

Rwanda and the UK, and for

30:14

once actually, France is probably less

30:16

wrapped up in this than they

30:18

have been historically. But

30:20

just to jump in through things, well at the beginning there,

30:22

like, yeah, in terms of the fact that quite a lot

30:24

of the individual leaders of the M23, they

30:27

are already individually sanctioned by, and quite

30:29

a few of them are Rwandan, they

30:31

are sanctioned by the UK and

30:33

by various other international bodies, right? So there

30:35

is a very strong argument that the UK is

30:37

breaching a French sanctions, and that's not an avenue

30:40

that I've seen explored yet in order

30:42

to stop the Rwanda deal. So

30:44

yeah, I would absolutely love for some of

30:47

the opponents of

30:49

the Rwanda deal in the UK to maybe take up

30:51

that angle, maybe a country like Burundi that's seeing the

30:53

effects to maybe

30:55

push that more internationally. And when we asked

30:57

the UK Treasury specifically, are you violating

31:00

your own sanctions, by so far sending

31:02

250 million pounds to a government with

31:06

several internationally sanctioned individuals

31:10

present in that regime, and

31:12

you have no way of

31:15

giving the public a paper trail of where

31:17

that money is actually ending up. And the

31:19

Treasury, to be fair, they'd actually just go,

31:22

actually, can you give us some time

31:24

to look into this? So it wasn't

31:26

a straight no. But then when we've looked

31:28

into where that money's went as well, like

31:30

yes, we know

31:32

that either having that cash in

31:35

the reserves is emboldening Rwanda to go

31:37

up their support, whether or not that

31:40

money directly goes over the border or

31:42

not, there's really no way to tell.

31:44

But what we do know is what

31:46

the UK said about the money has

31:48

been complete bullshit. And the

31:50

most telling example of that was the

31:53

windswell of Raverman went to Rwanda, and

31:55

you can see the videos of her

31:57

walking around what looks like a nice,

31:59

little house in development saying oh I

32:01

wish I had the interior designers name

32:03

this is lovely and this is where

32:05

all of those refugees asylum seekers will

32:07

be sent when they get to Rwanda

32:10

look at it isn't it nice no

32:12

one can say this isn't safe we

32:14

went to that development and the developers

32:16

told us oh yeah that lady yeah

32:18

that lady came around here but we

32:20

have nothing to do with the UK

32:22

there is no plan whatsoever to ever

32:25

ever have asylum seekers house here this

32:27

is nothing but a

32:29

Rwanda housing development for loads of

32:31

yes starter home for like middle-class families

32:33

getting going and they have absolutely never

32:35

ever had any intention at all to

32:37

do that and they said that the

32:39

only reason she was there was because

32:41

it was a graduation ceremony for some

32:43

of their development for our staff and

32:45

she showed up and then just decided

32:47

to use that as a complete lie

32:49

of saying this is the homes where

32:51

they will be sent it's

32:54

very Adam Curtis you

32:56

know what I mean yeah

32:58

it's just it's just unreal I mean

33:00

I'm never surprised by anything this government

33:03

does I mean Britain is just a

33:05

disaster but this is just madness

33:07

I mean what is Congo saying about this

33:10

I'm sure you know I know Congress

33:12

we've done covered it quite a lot in the

33:14

magazine and on the podcast there were dozens

33:17

of various different connecting

33:19

and disconnected

33:21

wars going on there so I know it's

33:23

a big problem there but this is one

33:25

of the much more serious situations and

33:28

I mean Jesus Christ I mean I don't want

33:30

to say Britain's fueling it I

33:32

think at the very I mean I think that but

33:34

at the very least you can say there it's

33:36

factual to say they're definitely encouraging this what's

33:39

Congo about to say are they saying anything about

33:41

this the most the most the

33:44

kind of most interesting thing that I think they've said

33:46

has simply been

33:48

if m23 gets

33:51

into Goma we will

33:53

attack Kigali they've made

33:55

it very clear that they will declare open war

33:57

with Rwanda FM 20 free

34:00

makes it into the city and then where

34:03

does the UK stand at that point? Who for?

34:05

Do we push this? First of all, it can't

34:07

still be a safe country with an open war

34:09

with its neighbour, right? But even if it still

34:12

tries to fight that somehow, what do we then

34:14

back this regime? Do we

34:16

then actually, do we sport them in

34:18

the UN Security Council votes?

34:20

Do we send trips? Do we send armaments? Yeah,

34:24

but also I mean, they said that they'll

34:26

go, that they'll declare war. I mean I don't think that

34:28

people in the DLC, like, they've got enough in their plate,

34:31

they're not really aware of this like, you know, immigration

34:33

deal, so the RPG deal, right? So they probably haven't, I

34:35

don't think people have really connected that the UK

34:37

is in any way responsible. But I think,

34:39

I mean, there's so

34:41

much rage at the moment already against

34:44

Western governments for inaction and

34:46

exploitation in the DLC. I think that would just

34:48

be the icing on the cake. But

34:50

if you talk to people in, I mean,

34:53

we've said before there's already like, most in

34:55

Eastern European mercenary groups fighting alongside Congolese

34:58

forces against the N23 at the

35:00

moment and, you know,

35:02

Mursko, the UN forces are about to

35:04

pull out. We're pretty sure that Russia,

35:07

rather than either already there or

35:10

is waiting in the wings to go in

35:12

and fill that vacuum. At that point, I

35:14

mean, this whole attempt to try and get

35:17

more access to resources in the DLC could

35:19

be completely thwarted if Russia is able to

35:22

exert more influence there. So I mean,

35:24

even from the, even in terms of

35:26

the sort of broader geopolitical goals of

35:29

this idiocy, like the

35:31

UK is shooting itself in the foot and the DLC is not

35:33

going to want to deal with them. We were

35:35

surprised though that there were a few people

35:37

on the ground, a few that had heard

35:39

of this UK Rwanda deal and

35:41

were just, yeah, yeah,

35:44

yeah, just a few kind of, you know, regular people

35:46

on the street and the DRC and then, and, you

35:48

know, it was just a kind of disgusted.

35:50

I don't know why they're funding

35:52

this country that is just

35:54

trying to invade us, right? And, you know, it didn't

35:57

go much deeper than that because I mean,

35:59

that's the most important. happening and

36:01

what they were saying almost in the

36:03

same breath was well you know we

36:06

don't we don't we don't trust the

36:08

British government we don't trust the Americans we don't trust

36:10

the French no one's here helping us

36:13

in fact you guys are supporting the people who

36:15

are hurting us who we do support is the

36:17

Russians now now these guys might be Eastern Europeans

36:19

they were pretty vague when I asked them where

36:21

they were from terrifying this

36:24

but they there was a

36:26

strong sentiment of the Russian brothers are

36:29

the only ones here helping us and

36:31

when the munitions were flying M23 even kids

36:33

in a refugee camp would say yeah that's

36:35

the Russians the Russians are helping us so

36:37

there's a strong love for the Russians and

36:40

that's like growing like

36:42

kind of hatreds for Western countries

36:44

like the UK. In Rwanda itself

36:46

like a lot of people a

36:48

lot of middle-class people in Rwanda

36:50

who've heard of this they are kind of like a

36:53

bit fronted that Rwanda's being

36:56

treated as an unsafe place and everything else because it's like you

36:58

know it's offensive to the pride or whatever but we

37:00

went to actual refugee camps within Rwanda which

37:02

are full of like Congolese people who

37:04

have been waiting

37:06

in many cases for 20 years or more to

37:09

get citizenship and they've been told they never will

37:11

they have not heard the Rwanda plan but what

37:13

they had been told is that their only hope

37:15

of ever getting out of a refugee camp in

37:18

Rwanda is if they get sent to somewhere like

37:20

the UK. And the best thing about

37:22

the whole ridiculous

37:27

deal this government has set

37:29

up and I think I've only

37:32

ever seen it raised once publicly

37:34

is that it clearly states

37:36

that this is not refugees

37:38

for money this is UK sending

37:41

asylum seekers to Rwanda and

37:43

yes there being payments made for the

37:45

facilities for them to be taken care

37:47

of and at the same time Rwanda

37:51

can send asylum seekers back to

37:53

the UK and as Lindsay was

37:55

saying earlier there is an enormous

37:57

amount more of a population. of

38:00

asylum seekers who have been in Rwanda

38:02

a lot longer than in

38:04

the UK and they are just waiting

38:07

to go somewhere and they have been

38:09

told that they will never ever get

38:11

citizenship in Rwanda. And

38:13

when we asked the government in the UK how

38:16

many will you take back if you

38:18

get this ridiculous deal through and they

38:21

said well that will be completely dictated

38:23

by the immigration cap that our government

38:25

is putting in. So a really vague

38:28

answer it sounds that they have really

38:30

no control legally on the contract

38:32

with sign of Rwanda of how

38:34

many more could come but it's

38:37

possible that Rwanda has just completely

38:39

outplayed this absolutely incompetent government who

38:41

think that they're being really smart

38:43

by playing to this far right

38:45

racist idiots in the country by

38:48

coming up with this plan where

38:50

in actual fact Rwanda might get

38:52

them to take tens and tens

38:54

of thousands of Congolese refugees into

38:56

the country if it ever actually

38:59

came off. Maybe there will be

39:01

a silver lining some refugees might get somewhere

39:03

safer. I mean it's just beyond really it's

39:05

like so they they made like a one-way

39:07

tunnel only for it to be reversed on

39:09

them like what

39:11

the hell like I mean how are you getting

39:13

outplayed like that it's meant to

39:16

be what is this even about you know it's

39:18

like this is what I don't get right so

39:20

they want to okay I mean I get it

39:22

you know the country there's a lot of fucking

39:24

issues in this country okay if you're gonna say

39:26

well okay there's not enough this there's not enough

39:28

that if you want to people want to blame

39:30

it on migrants if they want to do that

39:33

why is it then that the government was

39:35

talking more at least the last time I

39:38

checked they were talking more about sending like

39:40

actual refugees back as opposed to like I

39:42

mean look if you if you come from Albania right

39:45

you're not a refugee bro like there is no war

39:47

there in Albania you want to come to England fine

39:49

like you know I train with a lot of Albanians

39:51

they're not at war there they come for economic reasons

39:53

and yeah of course that makes sense but why is

39:56

it then that the government wants to like send the

39:58

people that literally fled from war on boats.

40:00

Why is it them? I don't get it.

40:04

Well, I mean, yeah, I

40:06

mean, they are appealing

40:08

to a very vicious right-wing sector

40:10

of society. That's the only thing

40:12

I can think of. It's just

40:15

vicious, right? It is really, really

40:17

vicious. But I think it was a desperate... The

40:19

thing is, we thought the UK

40:22

government is just a floundering, desperate,

40:24

failing government that's probably not got a lot

40:26

less. And they've been clutching at straws for something

40:28

to fix a refugee crisis that they can't fix

40:30

because they know how unpopular it makes them in

40:32

the UK, right? And

40:34

then you've got this kind

40:37

of like carousel of unelected,

40:39

completely incompetent leaders in the UK that

40:41

just don't know what they're doing, like

40:43

desperately trying to find something that might

40:45

land. And then you've got someone like

40:47

Paul Kagame, the leader of Rwanda, who,

40:50

despite being a pretty brutal dictator, is

40:53

also an incredibly effective leader that's been in

40:55

power for like 40 years and is 100%

40:58

outclassing anyone in

41:00

the UK. He's much smarter

41:02

than anyone we've got in government. So he

41:05

has clearly working this to his advantage in

41:08

a massive way, knowing that probably he'll

41:10

never see a single refugee since in the UK,

41:12

but he can still squeeze a court of rebellion.

41:14

But at the same time, you've got these kind

41:16

of like this circle of incompetent idiots in the

41:18

UK trying to flounder around for something racist enough

41:20

to make the right wing happy. But

41:23

then you've also got certain people within that.

41:26

You've got people like there's a politician called

41:28

Andrew Mitchell, for example, who was ambassador

41:31

to Rwanda for a long time, who

41:33

is making a fortune right now out

41:35

of trying to introduce mining companies and

41:37

other companies to the

41:39

Rwandan government and making sure that they are set up

41:42

to make a lot of money and

41:44

everything that's going to come from the

41:47

next couple of years and the further

41:49

incursions into the DRC. So there are

41:51

some... That's what it's really about, right? That's what it's

41:53

really about for the smart ones. For the smart ones,

41:56

yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's ones that actually

41:58

hold onto power and they don't realise... Someone like

42:00

Suela Braverman who is just a big racist and

42:02

is desperately wants the racist to like her more.

42:04

Wow, what a mess. I mean, I mean, I

42:07

can't even go over to get into the politics

42:09

of British immigration, but just looking at it from

42:11

one side, this is essentially

42:13

like built on a house of cards.

42:16

This cannot be sustainable. I

42:19

mean, it's going to fall apart, no? Yeah.

42:21

Yeah, I don't know how many more payments

42:23

because like also that quarter of a billion,

42:25

that wasn't one payment. That was multiple payments

42:27

over time with nothing to show for the

42:29

last payment and there's more payments to come.

42:31

So I really don't know how many more

42:33

tens or hundreds of millions the UK is

42:35

going to throw into this idiotic policy. And

42:37

I think you mentioned a few different numbers

42:39

of various times in the

42:42

last two and a half years since this began of

42:44

how many refugees we trade. But I think in

42:46

North Kivu region where this has been

42:48

focused in the DRC has been a

42:51

close to a million. And

42:53

then the last 18 months, a million

42:56

refugees. I mean, some of them, some of them

42:58

IDPs and some of them of the country. And

43:01

now that is we are at the

43:03

beginning stages of this conflict as well

43:05

is heating up massively and their columnar

43:08

is away from taking the main town.

43:10

If that continues to go, which it

43:12

will. And if you actually ended

43:14

up having, which I mean, is

43:16

very, very clear risk that you could

43:18

have full on warfare between Rwanda and

43:21

the DRC. And then if you think

43:23

about all of the enormous countries that

43:25

are desperate to keep their foot in

43:27

the DRC because of the resources there.

43:30

And when the last time it kicked

43:32

off like this in the 90s, it

43:34

was essentially the world's third world war.

43:36

And it's not just happened to all be

43:39

in Africa. The potential fallout for this is

43:41

absolutely massive. So a million refugees right now

43:43

could be the tiniest

43:45

tip of the iceberg of

43:47

what the UK is possibly

43:50

indirectly fueling here. And

43:52

it just doesn't understand what it's doing. Yeah,

43:54

I mean, stuff like this,

43:56

it blows

43:58

like certain conspiracies. theories out

44:00

the water because when you realize, you

44:03

know what I mean, you realize that

44:05

actually the government are too incompetent to

44:07

plan anything. It's just,

44:09

it's crazy. What

44:12

was the level of combat like when

44:14

you were there on the ground? How

44:16

bad was it at that time? It

44:19

was a lot hotter than I think

44:21

we thought it would be when we

44:23

were arriving in. I think the

44:26

front lines were about 25k

44:28

from the city. They

44:31

were losing kilometres a day.

44:33

So at first

44:35

we, the kind of closest

44:37

to the combat, whereas we've seen quite a

44:40

lot of attack helicopters go out, a

44:42

lot of these mercenary groups go out for battle

44:44

and then within about a week

44:47

the fighting was just coming closer and

44:49

closer with shells

44:51

that were, you know, you could hear them

44:53

all night at first and then you could

44:56

see them and they were getting closer. And

44:58

the front line was just changing by the

45:00

day. I mean, when we

45:02

were in the refugee camps, you're talking like,

45:04

you know, four or five kilometres away from

45:07

the front line and the children

45:09

were able to tell you absolutely everything

45:12

about the artillery that the M23 were

45:14

using, that the Eastern European fighters were using

45:16

because they'd just seen a few days before

45:18

and they were all just flowing

45:21

in there tens and tens of thousands

45:23

of people into these makeshift camps and

45:25

the fighting was just getting more

45:27

and more intense. And then, you

45:29

know, we left about, what,

45:32

about five weeks ago now and it's only

45:34

escalated since then. And I think the key

45:36

issue is that on top of that, yeah,

45:39

you've got this kind of civil disruption now

45:41

of people on the other side of the

45:43

country, Kinshasa, starting to

45:45

blame mostly Western

45:47

interference in the country for this

45:49

rising conflict and you've got the

45:52

UN peacekeeping forces basically admitting that

45:54

they can't hold ground anymore and

45:56

they're having to leave. So

45:58

you've got a Congress. government that

46:01

really doesn't have many other places to

46:03

go other than what's most

46:05

likely going to be more private

46:08

security, mercenary groups who try to hold back

46:10

this front line. It looks right now like

46:12

it's inevitable that Go Mobile

46:14

will fall possibly in the next

46:17

few weeks or months unless something

46:19

really severe changes. Yeah I can't

46:21

see it getting bad to me unless

46:23

it does seem like the war is gonna

46:25

break out unfortunately. Anyway

46:28

I think you're doing some amazing work on this. Where can people

46:31

find it if they want to read your your

46:33

ground reports on that? I've got

46:35

a few more coming out, one

46:37

coming up in foreign policy but

46:40

the one specifically focusing on this

46:42

Rwanda UK deal and the impact

46:44

on the DRC. You can check

46:46

that out on Byline Times which

46:49

is a really good investigative site

46:51

based in the UK and I

46:53

think the kind of headlines and

46:56

searches Rwanda creates nearly a million

46:58

refugees since signing asylum deal for the

47:00

UK government. Check that out on Byline

47:02

Times, it's a really long-form investigation and

47:04

then at Nathan P

47:06

Southern at Lyns A Kennedy on Twitter

47:08

and we'll be posting more about this

47:11

in the next few weeks. I'm doing

47:13

a talk, if you check

47:15

my Twitter you'll see the date I think

47:17

it's maybe this 18th of March. I'm doing

47:19

a talk on a conference with

47:21

Jeremy Corbyn and Sadeef Khar, the guy

47:23

who wrote Cobalt Reg, one of the

47:26

best books about DRC written in the

47:28

last 10 years and we're talking about

47:30

the conflict in DRC there so hopefully

47:32

get some more insight if you tune

47:34

into that talk. Alright mate, thank you

47:36

very much both of you. If

47:39

what I'll do is when by the

47:41

time people hear this on the main

47:43

feed it will be up on my

47:45

Twitter and I will at both of you

47:47

in there so if people go to at Jake

47:50

underscore Hanra and you'll see both of

47:52

you there so they can follow you if they need

47:54

to. Excellent man, thank you so much. That

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