0:02

This is Popular Front, a

0:05

podcast focused on the niche details

0:07

of modern warfare and

0:09

underreported conflict with me,

0:11

Jake Hanrahan. This

0:14

episode we're speaking to journalist

0:16

Daphne Wesdorp. She's going

0:18

to be talking to us about

0:20

her time spent living in the

0:23

jungles of Myanmar with the anti-junta

0:25

rebels. She's spent a considerable

0:27

amount of time with them in their

0:29

camps, on the frontlines and

0:31

also in one of their 3D printed

0:33

workshops which was hidden in a

0:35

cave. Really interesting situation. Her

0:37

reporting on this is excellent. She's got

0:39

some great insights into how the rebels

0:42

are doing out there in Myanmar at

0:44

the moment. If

0:46

you like what we're doing

0:48

here at Popular Front, please

0:50

support us at patreon.com/Popular Front.

1:02

So recently, you've been in Myanmar, you're

1:04

in the jungles, taking

1:06

photos, reporting with the rebels.

1:09

Tell us about that. Why did you decide to

1:11

go out there? It's obviously a very risky situation. I

1:13

know when you were out there, there was airstrikes in

1:16

the jungle, all sorts of shit. Tell

1:18

us about that. Why did you decide to go all the

1:20

way there? Because at the time, like everybody was very focused

1:22

on Ukraine. Yeah,

1:25

I think that's the thing because I

1:29

worked in Ukraine since the beginning of the war. Well,

1:32

up until a couple of months ago actually. But

1:35

I wanted to go to Myanmar for a

1:37

long time. And

1:40

right now, because of the ongoing operation, it's a

1:42

bit more in the news. But before,

1:44

when Ukraine was kicking off

1:46

and there was a new thing in the media

1:48

that was a

1:51

bit like, right, you have this civil war

1:53

in Myanmar, nobody gives a fuck about it.

1:55

While if you look at the atrocities and

1:57

the crimes against the people, it's a bit

1:59

more Humanity that are committing

2:01

there. I don't know. It's

2:03

just like Nobody cared

2:05

and I wanted to go there. I just wanted to

2:07

be on the ground I wanted to see what was

2:09

happening and I felt like If

2:12

nobody's gonna do it then I'm gonna do it

2:14

like I know there was some journalist They

2:16

actually went there, but it was still especially in that

2:18

media because I write for them It

2:21

was it was you know, almost

2:23

no one. Yeah, so I felt

2:25

like Especially after Ukraine that

2:27

that was like next step for me.

2:30

Yeah, it's a really weird conflict. It's

2:32

so so interesting And

2:34

there's so much going on. But like you said like it just even

2:37

in like English-speaking media. Okay. Yeah, it gets

2:39

like Mentioned now and

2:41

then but it's very it's

2:43

like nothing compared to for example Ukraine or Israel-Palestine

2:46

right now and it's it's a bizarre Well, it's

2:48

not the same caliber. It's not the same size

2:50

Well, maybe for you it's not but for the

2:52

people around there and in that region It is

2:54

it's a whole rebel force fighting like this brutal

2:56

junta in a massive country Tell

2:59

us how did you how did you actually get

3:01

there? Like what was the situation? I understand it's

3:03

pretty hard to get him yeah, so it was

3:05

actually funny because I I spoke with other journalists

3:07

that have you know crossed the border and The

3:11

area that I wanted to go to was on the eastern side. So

3:13

I went to Karani State And

3:16

before I went there the only

3:18

way to get over the border was

3:20

to walk for three days through the jungle

3:24

So when I was going there, I was like right like that's

3:26

you know what I have to do So I kind of

3:28

prepared for that. I came with my with

3:30

my walking boots I actually

3:32

trained even before that because you have to have

3:34

a new condition You know to

3:36

walk for three days through the mountains through the jungles

3:40

But when I got there and I

3:42

was speaking to my friend who was gonna help me over

3:44

the border and I was calling him And I

3:46

was like right, you know, I'm ready, you know And

3:50

brought my hiking boots and whatever and He

3:53

was laughing. He was saying like like no, it's way

3:55

too warm. Like we're not gonna do that. We're just

3:57

gonna take the car So

3:59

that was a That was very good

4:01

for me because

4:04

before the road is really brutal

4:06

because it's not just danger because

4:08

obviously these places are mined. Through

4:11

the jungle there's not a path. It's

4:15

really like hiking through the forest.

4:20

There's mines, there's even some military bases you

4:22

have to pass. The

4:25

rebel groups have to pick you up. So they have to

4:27

walk first, two days to the border, pick you up

4:29

and then walk two days back. So

4:32

it's a drag for everyone. So

4:35

yeah, then we went by car and it was possible

4:38

because back

4:40

then it was June and

4:43

right before the rebel groups

4:45

in Kareni State, the rebel groups

4:48

over there, they managed to take

4:50

some critical infrastructure and it's

4:52

not really taking it because the

4:54

roads over there, they're often used

4:57

by both the Burmese military and

4:59

the rebel groups. But

5:02

before I got there, they

5:05

managed to take some control over the roads. So

5:07

it was actually possible to go by car. So

5:11

we went by car, we got into this

5:13

small village on the other side. I

5:16

stayed there for a couple of days with the

5:18

Kareni Army, which is an ethnic armed

5:21

group that is fighting for the

5:23

Sennia long in that area. And

5:26

after that, we went to the Mozo, which

5:28

is it's like 12

5:30

hours by pickup truck through the jungles,

5:33

through the bamboo forest, like

5:35

over the mountains, incredibly

5:38

difficult area to

5:41

get around in because especially as the winter is

5:43

coming, you know, the arson of the winter, but

5:45

the rain season, the roads are

5:47

flooded, there's mud everywhere, people get stuck. So

5:51

it was 12 hours drive to the Mozo, which

5:53

was the town next to

5:55

Loika, which is the biggest city in Kareni

5:58

State. So

6:00

finally after like two days of travel we

6:02

got there and I

6:05

stayed at the the base

6:07

of the Kareni Army first for the first night and

6:11

Then the day after I went to the the

6:13

base of the KDF the

6:15

Kareni National Defense Force And

6:18

I stayed there for the yeah three weeks. I think

6:20

so even though you didn't have to hike through

6:23

that still like pretty my journey It was a

6:25

mad journey. Yeah, and it's beautiful out there. It's

6:27

a bit like It's

6:29

very poor like you can see the difference

6:31

because the moment you cross the border you

6:33

see the the refugee camps I

6:36

think after the coup there has

6:38

been About

6:41

Let me think I think 350,000 people that

6:43

have been displaced and they often go as

6:45

close as they can to the border areas

6:48

Because there's less airstrikes there So

6:51

yeah the moment you enter you you come into these

6:53

refugees camps with her which are made of from

6:56

bamboo huts, basically So,

6:59

yeah, it was a mad road and as I

7:01

was saying like the rainy season Was

7:05

about to come so The

7:07

roads were already muddy There

7:10

was some some well

7:12

some sort of traffic dams I guess that we ended

7:14

up in in the middle of the jungle because it

7:17

was only like one way to get to the mozo

7:20

and people With

7:22

humanitarian aid or not humanitarian aid just with

7:24

food basically and water They all had to

7:26

take that route to bring that stuff to

7:28

the villages the

7:31

remote villages So it's

7:33

not even possible during rain season to

7:35

take that road because because of the

7:37

mud But also because of the the

7:39

river that's in between Like

7:43

with the car you can drive through the river when the water

7:45

is low but in the rain is usually when

7:47

it's high you have to You

7:49

have to switch cars like you have to leave your car there

7:52

and drive Let somebody else drive it

7:54

back then you have to take how do you

7:56

call these like these ropes that you have to climb over?

7:58

the river and then go to the on the

8:00

side. So it's basically impossible to get there.

8:02

Yeah, that's chaos. And you were with the

8:05

K and the for anyone that doesn't know

8:07

explain who they are, what they're doing. Before

8:09

the coup from the in

8:11

2021, there were civilians like you have

8:13

this difference in Myanmar between the ethnic

8:15

armed groups that have been fighting for

8:18

the Sennia Long for

8:20

for their self-determination and

8:23

the groups that formed after the

8:25

2021 coup. And these

8:27

are often like they consist of civilians so

8:30

it was whatever. Most of them are students, lots

8:33

of young people and they picked

8:35

up weapons after the coup and then they formed

8:37

themselves. So the K and the F is one

8:39

of these groups. So before the coup, there were

8:41

civilians, but now they're fighting. Right. And

8:43

they're the groups that like went to the mountains

8:45

to train with the already hardened guerrillas. Yeah,

8:47

yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the funny thing is

8:49

like often a lot of them are Burmese.

8:53

The main ethnicity in Myanmar

8:55

is Burmese. They're

8:57

mostly in the in the mainland. But

9:00

after the coup, they went to the to the border

9:02

areas to train

9:05

with the ethnic armed groups because they obviously

9:07

had a lot of experience fighting the army

9:09

and they they fight

9:11

side by side now. And in the

9:13

in the recent months,

9:16

they have been cooperating more,

9:19

like especially with the you know,

9:21

the Operation 1027, which

9:24

consisted of three different. Well, they were

9:26

all ethnic groups, but it kind of

9:28

inspired people in all different

9:30

states. So the K and the F

9:33

as well to to combine like firepower.

9:35

So that's also what happened in the

9:37

Kareni state. And recently they took on

9:39

the University in Loika, which

9:41

was a massive accomplishment because

9:44

it's very difficult for these

9:46

groups to maintain positions. Like

9:49

the problem is they don't have the

9:51

firepower to maintain them like their guerrilla

9:53

style, you know, so they they know

9:55

how to get in. They know how

9:57

to fight, but because they

9:59

don't have the same artillery

10:01

as the Burmese military have, like it's

10:03

difficult for them to maintain it. It's

10:07

like an amalgamation of ethnic

10:09

groups that fought in the

10:11

civil war that's been going on like, you

10:13

know, almost upward of eight years

10:16

now. But all of these factions

10:18

were perhaps like not friendly before, right?

10:20

But now they're like, right, they've all

10:22

come together for the greater cause, if

10:24

you like. Yeah, it's a bit when I was

10:26

there in June, it was a bit different still, because there

10:28

is, there

10:30

was at the time, there was little to

10:33

no coordination between them. Like

10:35

they often have problems like when the K&DF

10:37

was doing a mission that the

10:40

the Kareni Army or the the K&P

10:45

left the Korean national people's

10:47

liberation from like they have

10:49

no idea what they're doing. So they often

10:52

got in each other's way, which

10:54

led to like a lot of problems. Like there

10:56

was this one time this mission, they

10:59

were set out to do something they

11:01

got shot at by the other party because it

11:03

was just so much confusion. So

11:05

back then, it was difficult. But yeah,

11:07

as I said before, like since the

11:10

start of the the new operation,

11:14

it actually showed like how strong they

11:16

can be when they when

11:18

they combine firepower.

11:22

And they really think or I

11:24

mean, it really kind of

11:26

shows that it can be

11:28

a turning point. Like if they start

11:30

working together, instead of, you know, fighting

11:33

side by side, but without clear

11:35

communication, they actually

11:37

have a chance to overthrow the

11:39

Junta. Right, for the first

11:41

time, it's actually looking like it might be

11:43

possible, right? Yeah, I mean, I was

11:46

a bit skeptical, to be fair. And I think

11:49

lots of people before as well, because,

11:53

you know, it's like, it's such an

11:55

Asian medical warfare, like they basically

11:57

have, have nothing compared

11:59

to that. to the Burmese military, like they

12:02

have no means to shoot down a jet,

12:04

which it was reported that they did, like

12:06

I'm not sure how they did it. But

12:08

yeah, I mean, if you have the Air

12:11

Force that the Burmese military has, and if you have

12:14

the firepower, like heavy artillery,

12:16

artillery, and the

12:18

training also that the Burmese military have,

12:21

like the rebel forces, they just

12:23

don't have that, like the trainings

12:25

that the K&DF had, as

12:28

well as other forces, I think as

12:30

the PDF or whatever.

12:32

It's basically, you know, months of

12:34

training, but they don't have the ammunition

12:37

to actually practice shooting, like the practice

12:39

is done in the field. It's

12:42

at the front line. So

12:44

that's a big problem. It costs a lot of a

12:48

lot of depth. What were they

12:50

like, the people you were with the K&DF? It

12:53

was really funny, like the first time I came there, so

12:56

I was in the

12:58

car and I drove to the base where I

13:00

would be staying for the next three weeks. And

13:03

I came there, I was about

13:06

two kilometers from the active combat

13:08

zone. And

13:10

we drove in the entrance and I saw

13:13

like this tree with like a table underneath,

13:15

and they were barbecuing. And it was like,

13:17

I think, what, like 15

13:19

to 25 people sitting

13:24

next to the barbecue. One of them

13:26

was playing guitar, like they were singing. So,

13:29

and it was all people I

13:31

think from, you know, like 16,

13:34

17 to 35. And I was a

13:36

bit like, there's no way that these are the guys, you

13:38

know, because they weren't wearing any

13:40

uniforms. But yeah, it turned

13:42

out that there was the commander who was playing

13:45

the guitar, and that was like

13:47

the whole crew. So it's very, very

13:50

young people. It's a lot

13:52

of students because, you know, during the coup, it

13:55

started at the universities, and

13:58

the civil disobedience movement. movements,

14:01

it was a lot of

14:03

like young nurses, other people

14:05

from the university, teachers, those

14:09

were the first ones that, you

14:12

know, went to the protest and

14:16

they ended up going to

14:20

the ethnic armed forces to train there. So it's

14:22

a lot of young people. And

14:25

they were very like how you say, I

14:28

think humble is the right word

14:30

to describe. It's a bit like

14:32

because I've reported from a lot of

14:34

the one like hardened militants. Yeah, that's

14:36

the thing like they kind of are like

14:39

into battle, they're part of militants, but

14:42

they don't like to brag if you

14:44

know what I mean, it's not like they come back from

14:46

the battlefield and they're all look at what we did, like

14:48

we did this and this. And

14:50

it's very, I need to say, yeah, it's

14:54

a humble I think it's also because

14:56

you know, they kind of lost hope

14:58

that the rest of the world stopped caring about their

15:00

problems. So they have nothing to prove to anyone. Yeah,

15:05

it's just a bit like they're doing their thing, they

15:08

want to fight their battle. And

15:11

they don't have to, at least they have

15:13

to convince anyone for anything because they're doing

15:15

everything themselves. They may go on

15:18

weapons, they fight themselves, they have

15:20

to find ways to smuggle weapons into

15:22

the country, like there's no

15:25

one helping them. So I

15:27

think that yeah, that contributes to the

15:29

to that like attitude that they have.

15:32

You saw some of these homemade weapons

15:34

or craft made her we want to say,

15:36

including 3d printed stuff with the

15:38

drones. Tell us about that. What was that like?

15:40

How prevalent was it in the area where you

15:42

are? But first, when I came there, I

15:44

thought like the because you saw the videos

15:47

from the the FTC nine's in the

15:49

pictures. So

15:52

that was the thing that I was expecting to see. I

15:54

was thinking that there would be a

15:57

lot more 3d printed rifles at the

15:59

front. But there really was not.

16:02

I think it's mostly because in the beginning days

16:04

after the coup, people

16:06

made weapons out of anything. They

16:09

had like bow and arrow. They

16:13

found all these different ways to design weapons

16:15

as fast as possible. And one of these

16:17

ways was the 3D printer. So

16:20

that's when, yeah,

16:22

the JStark's STC9 was

16:25

produced. But as soon

16:27

as they found other ways to get

16:31

more conventional rifles over the border,

16:35

they started using that because 3D printed

16:38

weapons, it's plastic. So it

16:42

turned out that it's not very suitable for the

16:44

rough conditions at the front line. So

16:47

it's better to use. They now use, I think

16:49

it's M16s that they use mostly. So

16:52

yeah, I couldn't really find that one. But I

16:55

did find one of the guys, his name is

16:57

3D, is Nick Nain. He

17:00

was the guy that produced the

17:02

FGC9s in the beginning. But

17:05

he changed to other things

17:07

because he found that it

17:09

was not rifles that they needed, but it was different things

17:11

they needed. And one of the things

17:13

they desperately needed was

17:15

drones. It's incredibly

17:17

expensive to import it from

17:20

China or from whatever because you have to

17:23

pay money to get it over the border. It

17:27

has to be smuggled. So it's better

17:29

to do everything yourselves because they don't have

17:32

the conventional chain of

17:34

supply. So

17:36

he started making the Liberator

17:39

MK1 in the beginning, which

17:42

was an entirely

17:44

homemade drone. And

17:47

at first, it was just a couple of parts

17:49

that were 3D printed. So for example,

17:51

the battery case and the

17:53

frame was used. Yeah,

17:56

the frame was made with help

17:58

of a 3D printer. But

18:01

they made a second design, which is the

18:03

MK, sorry, the Liberator MK2. And

18:07

that one is for, I think about

18:09

40% 3D printed. The

18:12

wings are made of plastic, so

18:14

it's incredibly light as well. And

18:16

they've been using that a lot at the front lines.

18:20

The next step for them, they said, was to

18:22

make a suicide drone. But this is just more

18:25

convenient because they can do attacks about

18:27

like 10 times per day with one

18:30

drone. And that

18:33

has been proven very helpful because, you

18:35

know, the biggest thing is that they

18:37

don't have anything from the air except

18:39

for these drones, especially in

18:42

Kareni State, like in different states, it might be different,

18:44

like in Shand State, they have different

18:46

artillery. But in Kareni State, the biggest problem

18:48

that they had is that they

18:50

were bombed continuously for all sorts

18:53

of artillery, but they had nothing, you know,

18:55

to make the enemy

18:57

fear the sky a bit the same as they

18:59

did. So for them to

19:02

drone, like the MK or the

19:04

Liberator MK2 was, yeah, it was

19:06

extremely helpful. Where

19:10

did they have this 3D printing

19:12

factory, if you like? Because imagining like somewhere

19:15

to do it in the jungle just seems

19:17

like it would be quite a

19:19

problem, like quite a hard thing to do. Where

19:21

was it? So you

19:24

didn't have a lot of shelters, like for example, places

19:26

like Ukraine or whatever you have, or in

19:28

buildings, you can hide in the basement. In

19:32

Myanmar, you only have

19:35

like, it's like, it's like not

19:37

wooden houses, but from bamboo made. So

19:41

the only thing you can do is like

19:44

find a place to hide. But

19:47

they found actually the best place, I

19:49

think, in Kareni State, where they could

19:51

have a factory like that, which

19:54

was a very deep cave into the

19:57

mountain somewhere. Like it took a...

20:00

It was a really difficult road getting there because

20:02

you have to go over the mountains

20:04

and even though everything is

20:06

remote like that area was just completely like

20:10

off the off the track And

20:14

it was a very deep cave. It used to be It

20:18

used to be like a sanctuary or not a

20:20

sanctuary but like a small temple It was like

20:23

a Buddha statue standing there and

20:25

the Buddha statue was surrounded by these 3d printers I

20:27

think they had like six or seven and That's

20:30

where they made the The

20:33

drones or no not the drones, but that's where

20:35

they made some part for the drones They

20:38

built stabilizers for mortars. They

20:40

were working on a Suicide vehicle

20:42

they could they could

20:44

use at the front lines But

20:47

it was mines like casings for mines, you know,

20:49

it's very easy You build an explosive you put

20:51

the casing of the mine with like spikes

20:54

in the plastic on top of it and

20:58

And you can you know, you can make things

21:00

more lethal So yeah,

21:02

the place was quite special but

21:05

the other place the other base

21:07

that they had where they actually Put

21:10

the drone together. It was it was in a

21:12

different place I think it may be also

21:15

because you know you want to spread these things You don't

21:17

want to have one base where everything is but it's better

21:19

to have like a couple places where you do it Yeah,

21:28

it's mental yeah, yeah Yeah,

21:32

the thing is like even from even from that

21:34

way, huh? It's

21:40

like even like from the from the

21:42

mountain from like the so there was this

21:44

cave and you could step outside And he

21:47

was on the mountain and you could see

21:49

Loika So you could see like the occupied

21:51

or not occupied areas We could see the

21:53

like the active combat zone. You could see

21:55

like smoke rising from the distance So

21:59

it was quite close but it was still, it was

22:01

such a safe place because, yeah, it's a

22:03

bit like your, well, like 30 meters on

22:05

the ground, so even if it's a direct hit,

22:07

you know, you have like the, it

22:09

can collapse, but you still have the

22:11

safety. Yeah. How

22:14

do they get all that equipment up there? My

22:17

cars, they just drive. Yeah. And

22:20

scooters as well, I think. But how the fuck do

22:22

they get 3D printed? Like, so

22:24

they gotta get like the ender, like

22:26

the 3D printed, the 3D

22:28

printer, all the way up there, they gotta

22:31

get generators, I imagine it sounds like a

22:33

lot. Well, the thing is like for the

22:35

rainy season, yeah, they need generators, but you

22:37

know, in Myanmar, there's an

22:40

awful lot of sun, so they

22:42

use solar panels mostly to generate.

22:45

But yeah, it's still, it's pretty

22:48

difficult. Like it's

22:50

not as in Ukraine, you know, Ukraine

22:52

you have electricity often, like not always,

22:55

but you know, you have infrastructure, which

22:57

is, you know, you just don't really

22:59

have that at these places. So it's a

23:02

challenge for them. But yeah, they still pull

23:04

it off because it's like, for

23:06

them it's necessary. Like they have to

23:08

find these alternative ways of producing these

23:11

things because otherwise, there's

23:13

nobody that's gonna give it to them, you know? Mm,

23:16

yeah, ingenuity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. Did

23:19

you see them using that like in any

23:21

other way? Was it just weapons they were

23:23

making? Or, you know, parts

23:25

for weapons, or were they using it for any

23:27

other things? No, it was just for

23:29

weapons. Like it did make some stuff, you know, because it's

23:32

young guys, like it's, I

23:35

think it's, yeah, again, it's all students,

23:38

it's all people that were studying like IT or

23:41

different things in Yangon, like before the coup.

23:44

So most of them are Burmese. So they do like,

23:46

you know, they fuck around a bit. They make like

23:49

small, like

23:51

statues. They use the 3D printer as

23:53

well for making

23:56

like tags for necklaces. It was one

23:58

way for them to... funding.

24:01

So their plan was to start producing

24:03

these, these like engraved

24:05

tags. And

24:08

for soldiers, it's, you know, it's, it's

24:11

a good thing because, you know, you

24:13

can put your your blood group on there,

24:15

your name on there, whatever. But

24:18

also, yeah, so he gave me, he

24:20

actually gave me one that said, live

24:23

free or die, because you know, it's Jay

24:25

Stark's model. And people

24:27

in Myanmar, like, yeah, for them,

24:29

but the whole, like the

24:33

words for them, have more meaning

24:35

than for for anyone, you

24:38

know, living in in another country,

24:40

because they're actually experiencing it, like,

24:43

live free or die, like they're

24:45

fighting for their freedom. So it's,

24:47

it's, yeah, they can relate

24:49

to that very well. It's very immediate

24:51

for them. Very, very. Yeah. Because

24:54

that's the thing, like, they were

24:57

living under a military dictatorship, since

24:59

what, like, 1962.

25:01

And you had on transfer ski, obviously,

25:03

like, since 2011, like in between, but even that

25:05

it was kind of like, it was not really

25:08

a democracy. So they

25:11

really like it's all these generations that grew

25:13

up without knowing what a democracy

25:15

is. And like, the funny

25:17

thing is that they really,

25:19

they're really preparing the soldiers

25:22

or preparing each other for

25:24

what's going to happen when

25:27

they win the war. It's they're very optimistic. They

25:29

really and you know, like, I

25:31

think most people are like after the

25:34

like the ongoing operation, but

25:37

they have these, how do you

25:39

say these ideological training camps. So

25:41

they, they teach people

25:43

about like what a federal democracy is,

25:45

so that everyone that's fighting like knows what

25:48

they're fighting for, which is very

25:50

interesting to me. Popular

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26:15

front. That's

26:22

really interesting and I think particularly that

26:24

links into the solidarity you've

26:26

seen with the YPG in

26:28

Rojava, North East Syria recently.

26:30

If anyone doesn't know, basically

26:32

the rebels put out the video

26:34

first or was it the Kurds?

26:36

I think it was the rebels

26:38

first, yeah. And then the Kurds

26:40

replied. Right, so the Myanmar rebels

26:43

put this cool video out where

26:45

they're saying it's kind

26:47

of solidarity, they kind of nod

26:49

to Rojava saying we share your

26:51

struggle and then the YPG and the YPJ

26:54

made one back and said yeah, we acknowledge

26:56

that we share your struggle. But the interesting

26:58

thing there is it's not just like, it

27:01

could be any random group, the YPG

27:03

particularly has this democratic confederalism as they

27:05

call it, you know, and I think

27:08

for, especially when I was speaking to the

27:11

Myanmar rebel lad that we had on, I

27:14

can't remember his code name, I know his real name but I don't want

27:16

to say that, but anyway, he

27:19

basically was saying something quite similar in

27:21

terms of like yeah, we want a

27:23

kind of confederation, we want to be able

27:25

to rule each area but we want to

27:27

have our own democracy, not from the state.

27:30

And I don't mean anarchy, like not anarchism,

27:32

it was something different, you know, again, confederalism.

27:35

Did you see people speak about that like day

27:37

to day or is it kind of just contained

27:39

within the kind of educational

27:42

theory comes? To

27:46

be fair, I think it's

27:51

just them, like probably, it's a bit

27:53

like this is probably

27:55

the first time that people are

27:57

learning about what a federal democracy is and what it could

27:59

be. But I think, to

28:01

be honest, civilians, they're not

28:03

really discussing it. Because

28:06

also, like Corinne said, it's a bit of a different,

28:08

you know,

28:12

it's not Burmese people living there.

28:15

So I think they still feel

28:17

more this drive for self-determination

28:21

than, for example, in other places.

28:24

But they are thinking about, like, a possible

28:26

solution for

28:29

after the conflict. It's a bit like, right, like, what is...

28:32

because, you know, now everything is shit. And

28:35

they know the situation is not going to be perfect

28:38

in the case that the military

28:40

goonset is defeated. But

28:42

like, what then? You know? So it's a bit...

28:45

you make the best of it. And I think

28:47

most people realize that in

28:49

order to... with all these different

28:51

ethnicities, like a place in like a new

28:53

Myanmar, like, this

28:55

is just

28:58

the best way to do it. But

29:00

yeah, to answer your question, like, it's

29:03

just the soldiers and especially... like, I

29:05

can't speak for the... I don't think

29:07

these camps are also being organized for

29:09

the ethnic armed groups. So

29:12

it's just PDF, KDF, mostly

29:15

that are having these camps. But

29:17

it makes sense also because most of them are

29:19

Burmese and they have always been part of

29:22

the majority of the country. So it's...

29:24

yeah, it's a bit of a different situation

29:26

with that. Interesting. Could create some

29:28

conflict in the future or could not. You

29:31

were talking a little bit about the kind of

29:34

threat from the air. I

29:36

know you experienced quite a lot of that, obviously, from

29:39

the junta. When you

29:41

were there, how bad was that? What was it

29:43

like? Like, is it regular airstrikes? Tell us about

29:45

it. So I think for me,

29:47

I compare it to Ukraine a bit

29:50

because that's where I spend most of my time.

29:52

And it was very different than that. I

29:54

think the biggest threat was

29:56

the jets. They

30:00

fly over every night, but the thing

30:02

is, you never know what they're gonna hit because

30:05

they might fly from base to another

30:07

base. They might like bomb

30:09

somewhere in the South. They might, you

30:12

just never know. And

30:14

in terms of other stuff, like

30:17

the artillery, it's just, it's

30:21

not so much. They

30:23

used it when I was there after

30:26

they hit the camp next to

30:28

us with vacuum

30:30

bombs from a jet.

30:33

They used it afterwards because they were

30:35

checking, at least that's what they were

30:37

thinking. So

30:39

they bombed the camp. I

30:42

think about like five, six people died. There

30:44

was lots of injuries. And

30:46

then they saw the cars coming

30:49

to pick up the

30:52

injured people. They followed the cars,

30:55

like the lights of the cars, like where

30:57

they were going. And then they started to

30:59

bomb us because I was sleeping at the

31:01

stabilization points, like the base where I

31:03

was staying at was also the

31:05

nearest place to, how

31:10

you say, to

31:14

treat people that are wounded. So they followed

31:16

the cars and then they started to strike

31:19

us with, I think it was mortars, to be

31:21

honest, because as I said, it was quite close,

31:23

you know? But that's not,

31:26

it's not standard. It's mostly the jets that

31:28

are just like the biggest threat. And

31:31

the biggest problem is that, in

31:34

Myanmar you don't have the

31:36

safety of a

31:39

concrete shelter. You don't have that. It's

31:41

just, it's a hole in the ground,

31:44

which is covered by like wood. Then

31:48

they put some sand sacks on tops, or sometimes

31:50

even bags with soybeans

31:52

or rice. It's

31:54

like a, it's

31:57

crazy actually, but yeah, they do that. So

32:00

it's not safe at all. Like also the

32:02

camp that was bombed, we went there

32:04

a couple of days after and the shelters

32:07

were just completely like, I was

32:10

just done. Yeah.

32:13

I think like a lot of the people there, they

32:17

don't even go to the shelters when there's bombing,

32:19

they say like, you know, it's better to just

32:22

run as fast as possible and just hope you

32:24

won't get hit because you

32:26

don't, there's no

32:28

safety at all in

32:30

the jungle. Yeah. You

32:33

were there when a lot of

32:35

these people were killed, there's some

32:38

nurses there, medical, how ready are they

32:40

for that? I know it's been a

32:42

few years now of this. How

32:44

are they kind of adapted to trying to do that in

32:47

the jungle? So it's like, as I said before, most of

32:49

them are very young. So

32:51

also the medics, extremely

32:53

young, like some of them

32:55

were 18, some of them were like, you

32:58

know, early twenties. But

33:00

before they worked as

33:02

nurses, for example, in the hospital in Yangon,

33:04

but they never had to deal with trauma

33:06

injuries like that. So for them,

33:09

it was a bit of a switch. Like

33:11

I remember this, this, this one girl, her name

33:13

is Jojo. And she told me

33:15

about the first time she had to, she

33:18

had to not deal with trauma,

33:20

but she had to, she

33:24

had to care

33:26

for someone that she knew, which was a friend

33:28

of her, and was a soldier who came

33:30

back from the frontline and got hit by by

33:33

artillery. He

33:35

had like severe wounds

33:37

in his chest. And she

33:41

was kind of shocked because he,

33:44

you know, it was a faith that she knew. And

33:46

he died like at the spot, you know, while she

33:48

was trying to like fix him. And

33:51

it's very, very difficult mentally.

33:55

Yeah. And to, to experience

33:58

that because, you know, It's

34:01

just kids basically are dragged into

34:03

this horrific war. They

34:05

never wanted this, but they have to. There's

34:08

no other way. So yeah,

34:10

she said the first time she experienced that,

34:14

you have to get over it, but then you get

34:16

used to it because every day there's more shrapnel

34:18

wounds, trauma, dead, like 18-year-olds

34:21

that you have to wash,

34:23

you have to prepare for

34:25

their funerals. So

34:27

it's the same as everywhere. You

34:29

get used to war, you get used to

34:31

blood. You just, yeah, it

34:34

becomes a very strange reality,

34:37

but most

34:39

people, they get used to

34:41

it very well at some point. And

34:43

what kind of resources they have out

34:46

there for medical aid? Well,

34:48

not that much to be honest. Like there's

34:50

one platform, because I'm only now speaking about

34:52

Kareni State. I

34:54

do think, or I know that in

34:56

the other states, also at the borders

34:59

and the mountains, it's kind of

35:01

the same situation, but because there's

35:03

different countries that border them, it might be different.

35:06

So there was one last functioning hospital in

35:08

Kareni State. There was

35:11

before the coup, there were eight. All

35:14

of the other ones got bombed. So this was the last

35:16

functioning one, very strange

35:18

situation, overcrowded,

35:21

all the beds were full. And

35:24

they only had one echo.

35:28

Is that the right word, echo? Do you mean

35:30

like the kind of thing you would, the

35:32

thing you would use for pregnancy, that kind of thing? Yeah, yeah,

35:34

that one, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

35:37

So they only have one of them, but they

35:39

didn't just use it for practice.

35:41

Ultrasound. Yeah, an ultrasound, yeah, that's the

35:43

word. Yeah, the ultrasound. So

35:45

they only had one of them. And

35:49

it was donated as well.

35:51

They only had one surgery

35:53

room to perform

35:55

surgeries in. And it

35:58

was continuously busy. But there

36:01

is, because the borders are closed, so you

36:03

can't just bring medical supplies over the border.

36:05

I mean, it does happen, but you have to

36:07

make a deal with the Thai border guards.

36:09

So it's expensive as well. And

36:13

then you also have to think, you know, there's not so

36:15

many NGOs operating in Myanmar, but also

36:17

not so much on the border, you know. I

36:19

mean, there are, don't get me wrong, but it's

36:21

not the same as, for example, you know, the

36:23

support has been for Ukraine or to other places.

36:26

So there's a lack of everything, basically. Yeah,

36:30

there's lots of people that can do it.

36:32

There's lots of surgeons. There's lots of people

36:34

that are qualified, but they

36:36

just don't really have the

36:39

supplies for it. And especially

36:41

then, you know, the ultrasound and stuff like

36:43

that, you need to trace the shrapnel

36:45

and stuff like that. If

36:48

you have 10 people coming in, you have only one operation

36:51

room, it's a bit like, yeah, what are you going to do?

36:54

You know, so it's a big, big

36:56

problem there. And they even

36:58

bomb the funerals, right? Yeah, man, it's fucking

37:00

insane, actually. It's really horrible. So

37:03

there's five people died at the camp, the

37:07

one next to us that got bombed, which

37:10

was, by the way, it was retaliation

37:13

because the battalion

37:16

that was on a mission

37:18

back then, they killed, I think

37:20

when they came back, they said they killed

37:22

like 40 people and they came

37:24

back with all the weaponry and all stuff like that. And

37:28

the moment they came back, or like

37:30

half of the group went

37:32

back to camp, that

37:35

exact moment, they got bombed. So it was

37:38

definitely retaliation. And I was speaking to

37:40

the commander and he actually felt kind

37:42

of guilty because he said, you

37:44

know, like, I was the one that was like, right,

37:46

guys, you can go home. We don't

37:48

need you anymore. Go rest. But

37:51

yeah, then I guess there was a spy that

37:53

was, you know, that's a big problem over there

37:56

as well, just as it is, you know, in

37:58

any war that there's a long of

38:00

people that are in

38:03

contact with the Burmese military. So the

38:05

moment they came back, somebody made a call,

38:08

Cam got bombed. And

38:10

then the next day when the five people were

38:12

being buried, we

38:15

were at the funeral and there was kids, there was the

38:17

relatives of the people that died

38:20

saying their goodbyes. And

38:24

at that moment, there was

38:26

two jets coming. These are Russian jets, by

38:28

the way. And they were making circles over

38:30

the whole area. So you saw

38:33

children running away, diving

38:35

into small little, how

38:39

do you say, behind

38:42

a hill, behind a small hill. But

38:44

basically anywhere people could take cover, people

38:46

were taking cover. Also,

38:49

where are you going to hide? There's no shelter.

38:53

So some people were sitting

38:55

behind the mountain. I was sitting behind

38:57

the mountain next to the commander of

38:59

the battalion. And he

39:02

was like, yeah, this is a safe place. And I was

39:04

thinking what if the

39:06

bomb drops in the valley, like

39:08

the shrapnel would fly up.

39:10

So there's not really a safe place to hide.

39:13

But yeah, so the

39:15

jets were circling around. And

39:19

in the end, they were bombing

39:23

the cemetery on top. And

39:25

luckily, nobody was there yet. They only

39:28

did some preparations, but there was

39:30

no casualties. But

39:33

after that, the soldiers

39:35

and the people from the battalion, they decided

39:38

to go on with the funeral with

39:40

the close family members that wanted to stay. But

39:43

yeah, everyone else had to leave, like all children as

39:45

well. So it's a bit like,

39:47

it's such a fucked up thing to do. It's a

39:49

bit like you can only bury someone once, you know,

39:51

it's like the last thing you can do. And

39:55

yeah, yeah,

39:57

terrific. Washington Jets

39:59

is that just like leftover from

40:01

before? No, I

40:04

think it's leftover from before. I think they had

40:06

them before 2021. But to be

40:08

honest, I'm not sure it's not that I

40:10

know that there's been like new deals or something like

40:12

that. Besides Russia

40:14

is actually China, that's one of the

40:17

biggest suppliers of weaponry to the Burmese

40:19

military. When did

40:21

you just like day to day hanging out

40:23

with these rebels? How does

40:25

they kind of keep their morale up? Because,

40:28

as you said, at the start, the whole world kind of, comparatively

40:32

to other conflicts, doesn't really give

40:34

a shit about this situation. And

40:36

it's an extraordinary kind

40:38

of concept where

40:40

all these young students go to

40:42

the mountains enjoying an already kind

40:45

of battle hardened guerrilla force and then learn

40:47

their own things and then, you know, branch

40:49

off and they're all, you know,

40:51

kind of under the same umbrella, all fighting

40:53

the genre. It's really kind of unique in

40:55

that sense. And yet still, the world

40:58

is not that interested. The

41:00

junta up until recently seemed

41:02

to be almost like immovable

41:04

in terms in terms of

41:07

seeing the so called international community kind

41:09

of trying to do anything. How was

41:11

it they kept their morale and kept

41:14

fighting despite all of this? To be

41:16

honest, I think they just

41:18

they don't give a shit anymore about what the world

41:20

thinks and what the world does. Like, and

41:22

I mean, they're right. Like, if you look at

41:25

the recent operation, they have they've booked more success

41:27

than ever before. So they can do it by

41:29

themselves. Like, they know that they don't need the

41:31

help outside. And they got used to that. So,

41:34

you know, for me, it was extremely depressing being

41:36

there, like, and it was very,

41:39

it felt very different than when I was

41:41

in Ukraine, because, you know, a lot of people

41:43

cared about that people didn't feel like, you

41:46

know, like, left by themselves

41:48

or whatsoever. But in Myanmar,

41:50

like, I was the one was like, Oh, everyone

41:53

is forgetting this, blah, blah. And they were just

41:55

a bit like, yeah, it's just the way it is,

41:57

you know, like, it's, they weren't even that bothered by

41:59

it. because they just didn't expect anything

42:01

else. And

42:04

yeah, as I said before, they're doing it.

42:08

They're doing it. They build

42:10

their own weapons. They are completely

42:12

independent. They

42:19

don't need stuff from anyone else. And still, they're

42:23

booking major advances. So I

42:25

think that's how they keep their morale up, just

42:28

by fighting, just by going step by

42:30

step, meter by meter, just

42:33

continuing until they have this federal democracy that

42:35

they want. Yeah,

42:39

to be honest, I think that's just it.

42:42

And of course, when dead

42:45

soldiers are being brought in

42:47

every day, people are

42:53

sad because it's the comrades that are

42:55

dying in front of them. But it's

42:57

also just a matter of getting used to that. When

42:59

you're in a war, you're used

43:02

to the fact that people are dying.

43:06

So I

43:08

think you probably know that they make a lot of music.

43:10

They sing a lot. The

43:13

guitar is

43:15

a very common thing to have for anyone. So

43:19

I remember the commander, actually, his name is Maui,

43:22

beautiful voice. And he was singing every year, or

43:24

not every night, but when he would come back

43:26

from mission, he would come back, he would sit

43:28

by himself, he would play

43:30

the guitar and sing for hours and hours.

43:34

And sometimes he would sit with him or whatever. There's

43:36

a lot of camaraderie as well. Yeah. That's

43:40

kind of similar to the rebel ad

43:42

cabbal that we spoke to. You

43:45

just get on with it. This is life

43:47

now. You just get on with it. Yeah, it's that.

43:49

Yeah, it's literally, you just get on with it. So

43:52

you've got this article coming out

43:54

in issue two of our magazine,

43:56

Popular Front magazine. It's

43:58

called Myanmar with Love. going

44:00

into the whole thing. Maybe you can just explain

44:02

to us about that because I think that's a

44:04

really great story. Yeah. So when I was there,

44:07

there was I met two

44:10

medics. Her name was Jojo and

44:12

his name was Kothai. And

44:14

I actually didn't realize before that

44:16

they were that they were engaged,

44:18

but I realized, like,

44:21

a couple days after I've been there. So

44:24

he was working in Yangon. And

44:27

she was there as well. And

44:30

they were both working at the

44:32

at the hospital. And he

44:35

was the first one to join the armed

44:37

resistance. And then she

44:39

came afterwards. And yeah, it's

44:42

a beautiful love story. Actually, like they they learn

44:44

everything together, like they they came together into

44:47

the war. You

44:49

know, he taught her how to, you

44:52

know, how to deal with like trauma injuries. And and

44:56

it was such a beautiful thing, you

44:58

know, because they were talking about what their marriage

45:00

or what their wedding would look like after

45:02

the, you know, after the after

45:07

they won the war. So it's

45:10

basically the article is about the

45:14

war in Myanmar. It's about the revolution

45:16

through the eyes of Jojo

45:18

and Kothai, who

45:21

are, you know, fighting side

45:23

by side. We're not fighting side by side, but saving

45:27

lives side by side. Yeah,

45:29

it's really excellent. The photos are incredible as well.

45:32

That should be out January, absolute

45:35

latest. But yeah, it's looking really, really nice.

45:39

I know I had a big effect

45:41

on you when you're out there, essentially

45:43

living with the rebels for three weeks.

45:46

What is the main thing that you kind of

45:48

took away from being with them? I think the

45:51

main thing is, I talked about

45:53

it before, but just, you know, how

45:55

humble they are, like, I

45:57

was humble in how discipline

46:00

they are as well. So I

46:02

stayed with them for three weeks. They woke

46:04

up every morning at six.

46:07

They all had

46:09

different jobs, like they were going out or

46:11

whatsoever. But they yeah, they

46:13

were very, very disciplined. And

46:17

yeah, the humbleness it's it's yeah,

46:19

it's for me

46:21

was very special

46:24

because you know, when you

46:26

work in the Middle East or you work in

46:28

other countries, it's sometimes a bit

46:30

like you're being ripped

46:32

apart, like everyone wants something for

46:34

you. Like it's it's it's

46:38

good sometimes. It's just a very different way of

46:40

working. And I mean, I'm always

46:42

just a bit like right, you're here,

46:44

right, whatever you want.

46:48

But I was

46:51

a bit like sometimes really

46:53

felt like being a fly on the wall, because

46:57

I was just doing their thing without noticing me too

46:59

too much. Nobody was bragging about

47:01

anything, everyone just like, just go

47:03

on with it. Just do your

47:05

thing. Just the only

47:07

thing that mattered was, you know,

47:09

like the victory. And

47:12

they didn't care that much about, you

47:14

know, media attention or other

47:16

things like that. And I just

47:19

found that great. I just found that amazing to

47:21

see. Hmm, it's really

47:23

different. All

47:25

right, Daphne, if people want to see your work,

47:28

get in touch with you so and so, where

47:30

can I do that? It's

47:33

a bit dumb. I'm still not using Twitter,

47:35

I really should. But I think the easiest

47:37

way is just on Instagram. It's at Daphne.

47:40

Yeah, no, I think that

47:54

was the Popular Front podcast.

47:56

If you want more exclusive

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